np: SV OU Suspect Process, Round 14 - Hazy Shade of Winter

[Finchinator]

Hello everyone, the OU tiering council has decided to test Kyurem!

Kyurem is the second straight Pokemon seeing a re-suspect in our flagship metagame; it evaded the banhammer last time by a mere five votes as it only had 58.1% of voters in favor of a ban. In a recent survey, active and high-achieving players who qualified for the Official Ladder Tournament gave Kyurem a 3.8 out of 5 when asked if they felt tiering action was needed on the Pokemon (with 1 being no action needed and 5 being action clearly needed). This survey came after the resurgance of Substitute + Protect Leftovers Kyurem, which terrorized the OLT ladder, and the advent of numerous different variants of Dragon Dance Kyurem, which focus on eliminating certain forms of would-be counterplay. For every pro Kyurem has, there are also notable flaws such as a mediocre speed tier, Stealth Rock weakness, and defensive typing with numerous common weaknesses. This post will outline Kyurem's place in the metagame, touching on both pro-ban and anti-ban arguments. After discussing the matter internally, the 9 members of the SV OU tiering council voted on suspecting Kyurem or not; 7 members voted in favor of suspecting it during our informal vote within the last day, including myself.

Kyurem has been controverial since it was released with DLC2's drop during December, even after the aforementioned initial suspect of it early this year. After it gained new tools last generation such as Freeze Dry and Dragon Dance, Kyurem got banned from OU for the first time ever. This time around Kyurem has lost a noteworthy tool in Roost, but it still has a menacing offensive presence that has limited counterplay, causing requests for tiering action. Versatility is oftentimes confused and correlated to an extreme degree with brokenness when that is seldom the case; Pokemon frequently run different sets, but what truly differentiates certain, more controversial presences is when their sets are able to drastically flip would-be checks or counters. One of the key arguments in favor of a Kyurem ban is how different responses to each variant of Kyurem have to be.

Certain players have publicly pointed out how Kyurem has such a wide spectrum of effective sets. All-out-Attacking specially based sets like Choice Specs and 4A with Heavy-Duty Boots stood at the forefront of the initial Kyurem suspect test, nearly getting it banned before other variants were at the forefront of Kyurem's profile. We still see these alongside the occasional Never-Melt Ice, Assault Vest, and resist berry variants that function with similar moves like Ice Beam, Freeze Dry, Earth Power, and one of Draco Meteor or Scale Shot usually. As time elapsed, we began seeing these sets as well as more Dragon Dance Kyurem, which initially frequented Loaded Dice alongside Icicle Spear, Scale Shot, and Tera Blast with Fighting, Fire, or Ground usually and Electric on occasion. Nowadays it can run this or the newer set, which is geared to break down conventional stall cores with Dragon Dance, Icicle Spear, Earth Power, and Freeze Dry, allowing for it to still muscle past most things with Icicle Spear while having Freeze Dry for pesky Water types like Dondozo and Alomomola and Earth Power for Steel types like Gholdengo or Kingambit, which can get lured by it running Tera Ground. Finally, we began seeing all of this alongside the aforementioned Substitute variant, which had the classic Freeze Dry + Earth Power "Mamoswine" coverage while abusing Pressure + Protect to prolong Kyurem's life and eliminate certain forms of PP based or choice reliant counterplay. Needless to say at this point: Kyurem has numerous effective and common variants that have different responses, causing teambuilders trouble and leaving most archetypes on watch for the time being.

While Kyurem has a lot going for it, it is also true that using it comes with many challenges. For starters, Kyurem provides little defensive merit in a format where covering powercrept threats is a tall order. While it can soft check Ground types like Gliscor or resist the STABs of menaces like Ogerpon-Wellspring, Kyurem is not a durable response to anything. Additionally, Kyurem has a defensive typing that plagues it just as much as its offensive typing helps it thrive. A Stealth Rock weakness paired with being weak to three common types from faster attackers in Fairy, Fighting, and Dragon serve as limiting factors, even making Kyurem occasionally Tera reliant. If it runs Heavy-Duty Boots, breaking is far more challenging and if it does not, then you also are on a timer vs entry hazards, which are up more than ever nowadays. Finally, Kyurem has a speed tier that is average at best in this fast paced metagame, falling short of most other top-tier threats that lack priority and leaving it revenge killable, even after a Dragon Dance by certain Booster Energy Pokemon, despite being able to stomach most priority.

Counterplay to Kyurem does exist, too. The main gripe is how slim the pickings are, especially when trying to be safe against each possible variant. Specially defensive stalwarts like Slowking-Galar and Blissey can scout out and check most special variants, but have to worry if they encounter mixed or physical variants. Primarina, Zamazenta, and certain set-up Garganacl can deter physical variants, but can get shredded by stronger special sets or even the wrong Tera in general. Other Pokemon like Assault Vest Iron Crown, Air Balloon Steel types like Kingambit, Gholdengo, or Tinkaton, and Scizor can situationally check it, especially earlier in games if they are healthy, but do not always last very long. Overall, there are checks and counters, but the question is how sufficient they are in the grand scheme of things.

All in all, Kyurem is a menacing offensive threat with numerous very strong sets on both sides of the spectrum, making reliably checking it a challenge in the current metagame. Some people note that aggressive offensive counterplay can minimize it while certain specific defensive answers exist, which is very much the case. However, others believe that this is not enough and Kyurem leaves teambuilding in an awkward position, limiting structures throughout the tier. It will be up to the suspect voters to determine how they feel on Kyurem in SV OU during this test!

• Reading this is mandatory for participating in the suspect test!!! The voting requirements are a minimum GXE of 80 with at least 50 games played. In addition, you may play 1 less game for every 0.2 GXE you have above 80 GXE, down to a minimum of 30 games at a GXE of 84. Also, needing more than 50 games to reach 80 GXE will suffice.

minimum games needed

GXE	minimum games
80	50
80.2	49
80.4	48
80.6	47
80.8	46
81	45
81.2	44
81.4	43
81.6	42
81.8	41
82	40
82.2	39
82.4	38
82.6	37
82.8	36
83	35
83.2	34
83.4	33
83.6	32
83.8	31
84	30

• You must signup with a newly registered account on Pokemon Showdown! that begins with the appropriate prefix for the suspect test. For this suspect test, the prefix will be OUZQ. For example, I might signup with the ladder account OUZQ Finch.
• Laddering with an account that impersonates, mocks, or insults another Smogon user or breaks Pokemon Showdown! rules may be disqualified from voting and infracted. Moderator discretion will be applied here. If there is any doubt or hesitance when making the alt, just pick another name. There are infinite possibilities and we have had trouble for this repeatedly. If you wish to participate in the suspect, you should be able to exhibit decent enough judgement here. We will not be lenient.
• We will be using the regular OU ladder for this suspect test. We will not be creating a new Suspect Ladder. At the beginning of every battle, there will be an announcement denoting the ongoing suspect with a link to this thread.
• The suspect being tested, Kyurem, will be allowed on the ladder.
• Any form of voting manipulation will result in swift and severe punishment. You are more than welcome to state your argument to as many people as you so please, but do not use any kind of underhanded tactics to get a result you desire. Bribery, blackmail, or any other type of tactic used to sway votes will be handled and sanctioned.
• Do not attempt to cheat the ladder. We will know if you did not actually achieve voting requisites, so don't do it. Harsh sanctions will be applied.
• Unlike previous tests, we will be posting the voting identification thread immediately after this thread. Your voting requisites will be confirmed by a Council member or OU moderator, to which we will edit in confirmation. Please avoid getting more games before getting confirmed.
• The suspect test will be lasting until Friday, September 27th at 10:59 pm (GMT-4), and then we will put up the voting thread in the Blind Voting subforum.
  • THIS IS A SLIGHTLY SHORTER TEST THAN NORMAL AS WE ATTEMPT TO BALANCE THE METAGAME. PLEASE NOTE THIS WHEN PLANNING TO GET VOTING REQUIREMENTS!!!

This thread will be open to allow all users to share their thoughts on this suspect test and discuss with one another their thoughts. However, this thread will be strictly moderated, moreso than the average OU forum thread. Our moderators will apply discretion as to what is appropriate. You are not allowed to post about other potential suspects or bans. Please read and keep in mind the following before posting:

• No unhelpful one liners nor uninformed posts;
• No discussion on other potential suspects -- if you wish to discuss another Pokemon, we encourage you to do so in the metagame discussion thread, but this thread is strictly to discuss if Kyurem is banworthy or not;
• No discussion on the suspect process -- this includes testing Kyurem vs other potential suspects;
• You are required to make respectful posts;
• You are required to read this thread before posting.
• Failure to follow these simple guidelines will result in your post being deleted and infracted without any prior warning.
• Please also take a moment to read over some suggestions from the OU Council and the OU Moderation team for posting in this thread; adhering these will help out our time moderating the thread and present your arguments better and more educated.
  • Do not argue because it's your favorite Pokemon. This should be common sense, but please don't do this, because we will delete posts like this.
  • You do not need a boatload of experience to have an informed opinion, but please try to minimize the theorymon aspect and use your experiences watching and playing. Playing some on the ladder before posting is plenty if you're concerned about this.
  • Do not flame, belittle, or be disrespectful to users in this thread. While not everyone will read this post in its entirety nor will everyone have an informed opinion, please be sure not to be disrespectful. If there's an issue, bring it up to a moderator.
  • Do not use the argument of broken checking broken. Should your argument rest on your opinion that banning the Pokemon or mechanic being tested in this suspect test will make a Pokemon or mechanic broken, overpowered, and/or uncompetitive; don't. If something needs to be banned because of the result this suspect, then so be it.
  • This thread is not to voice complaints about the suspect process or decisions of the council. While we are more than open to hearing complaints that may arise, this isn't the place for it. I suggest you message the OU Council, PM our Tier Leaders, Finchinator and Ruft, or make a post in Senior Staff requests, should you have a badge.

Should you have any questions about the suspect test, feel free to message the OU Council. And if you have any questions about the moderation of this thread, feel free to message the OU Forum Leaders. I am tagging dhelmise and Marty to let them know about this, too.

Keep in mind that our suspect tests are decided by the community; anyone who rightfully achieves voting requisites is allowed to vote. The outcome is up to you.

 

[Finchinator]

This thread is locked for 24 hours so everyone can collect their thoughts. Happy laddering!

 

[ausma]

Behave yourselves

 

[Magcargo]

In the pre-home metagame, the tier was in a fantastic state by the end of it. There was a high variety of playstyles, a variety of top tiers such as Hydreigon, Breloom, Amoonguss, Toxapex, and even Hisuian Zoroark. It was a true utopia, where skill and variety dominated and almost anything could work.

Then Home happened. Following the bans of the initial drops like Chien Pao and Regieleki, we saw an evil core rise up to destroy the metagame: This core ravanged the metagame, where "skillful play" was determined by which player got the game winning paralysis dice rolls the most in their favor. The once beloved and cherished SV OU metagame turned into a series of 50/50 dicerolls, where game outcomes were out of the player's control, and in the hands of the RNG gods, deciding which player got the game winning paralysis. Interactions like clicking rapid spin with great tusk became a liability, as tusk would merely get paralyzed and be cheesed while Ting-Lu and Samurott-H destroyed the tier with their Spikes. Thankfully, we had Baxcalibur in this time to save the metagame and not make completely riskless, but it nonetheless dominated the tournament scene and the ladder.

In DLC1, following the ban of Baxcalibur, Gliscor rose to the top of the metagame, being a virtually riskless pick that completely dominated matches with its ability to effortlessly set up Spikes, knock off Boots, and all around outlive every other threat in the metagame. Many of the best teams during this time needed to either be Grassy Terrain, or they would be overwhelmed by Gliscor's peerless longevity and progress making capabilities. The best counter to these gliscor teams was often your own SD Gliscor. In many ways, this metagame was refreshing compared to the paralysis spam 50/50s of the previous post-Home metagame. But here, there was a debate as to whether the cure to the problem was worse than the problem itself. Following Gliscor's ban however, the answer was evidently no. returned with a full vengence, and without its best counter, Baxcalibur, the metagame became more focused around para dice rolls than ever before. It was pure madness, and the victims - the playerbase -realized their mistake far too late.

After seeing the dark ages of the Home and DLC1 metagames, the playerbase has had enough. We have seen the alternative to a Kyurem metagame already and WE WON"T GO BACK. Kyurem keeps many of the playstyles that dominated the past 2 formats like Gliscor balance and ZapKingLu in check. Unlike Baxcalibur, Kyurem is no where near as dominant as a Ice-type, having to rely on either mixed sets or a forced Terastalization for coverage on its DD sets, while also being vulnerable to entry hazards (due to running Loaded Dice) in a metagame where entry hazards are more difficult to remove than ever. Its special sets are quite strong especially SubTect which has been making the rounds as of late. Nonetheless, we have already began to see new counterplay emerge, whether it be Iron Crown, Psychic Noise Tera Steel Latios, Scizor, and AV Hoopa Unbound, all of which utility in checking other common Pokemon such as Hatterene, Gliscor, Roaring moon, and general strong special threats like Raging Bolt respectively, in addition to players being more proactive in setting and maintaining entry hazards, which can pressure Subtect Kyurem over the course of a game. New options like Fezandipti have also began to see usage which players are using to check Pokemon other than Kyurem, like Iron Valiant, Darkrai, and Raging Bolt.

Speaking of entry hazards, this gets me onto my next point - the support Kyurem requires. Compared to many other top tiers gamers complain about like Darkrai and Gliscor, Kyurem actually requires a lot of support to get going. Hazard removal in a gen where hazards are nearly impossible to remove, pivots to bring it in safely against the Pokemon that it supposedly farms for free, like Gliscor (where Knock + Toxic destroy its threat level), etc. For a Pokemon that's supposedly quickban worthy, a significantly higher skill ceiling & level of support is required to use Kyurem and even then, its consistency and performance still can be lesser than many of its compatriots due to teams packing many of the Pokemon that it will naturally struggle against, such as Balloon Kingambit, Balloon Gholdengo, Zamazenta, Iron Valiant, etc. Speaking from experience, there is a massive amount of fluctuation in Kyurem's usefulness in a match - Gliscor and Darkrai are generally more splashable picks and arguably have higher upside as well due to Gliscor's better defensive profile, and Darkrai's better speed tier. Kyurem's defensive utility is quite poor in general next to many of OU's best Pokemon such as Kingambit, Primarina, Gliscor, Dragapult, and Gholdengo, which have significantly more utility checking threats while also being more effective general attackers due to their inherent traits, such as Kingambit's priority, Primarina's ability to block healing & act as a psuedo special wall on HO, or Gliscor's ability to ignore passive damage. Compared to these Pokemon, Kyurem needs to select its spots more carefully, and even then, it's structures can be prone to falling up short due to their inherent limitations, typically having a general vulnerability to key threats like Gholdengo, Darkrai, Zamazenta, and Iron Valiant.

There have been claims that Kyurem is limiting many balanced staples like Corviknight, Slowking-Galar, and Alomomola. However, I find this claim to be some cap. If anything, all of these balanced staples love Kyurem's presence as a queen piece that can make the most mileage out of their pivoting talents. Slowking-Galar's Chilly Reception boost Kyurem's bulk to let it better handle threats like Ogerpon-W, while it also lures in some threats Kyurem can take advantage of, like Samurott-H and Ting-Lu. Corviknight can safely bring Kyurem in against many of the threats its suppose to check like Gliscor and help Kyurem get rid of the hazards that so devastatingly limit it. Alomomola can help Kyurem regain its health that its likely to lose from entry hazards and appreciates Kyurem's (somewhat inconsistent) defensive utility against Ogerpon-W. The fact is, many balance staples are retaining a job because of Kyurem role as a partner to them. and this is reflected by many of the best Kyurem teams having one of Corviknight, Slowking-G, Alomomola, or another defensive pivot like Moltres paired with it. How can Kyurem be limiting the usage of the very Pokemon its commonly paired up with? It doesn't make sense.

The popular mechanic of the generation, Terastalization, has done wonders to help contain Kyurem, with many commonly used Pokemon like Raging Bolt, Kingambit, Gholdengo, and Garganacl running Tera Fairy and typically smoking most sets, with Garganacl mainly struggling against sub protect. Other Pokemon like AV Hoopa can make use of Tera Steel to grant enhanced safety against sets like Mixed Kyurem. Even Tera Fairy Ting-Lu is annoying for Kyurem to face, with it Whirlwinding Sub Kyurem away and forcing it to take increased entry hazard chip damage. Other common options such as Tinkaton have also begun seeing usage as well, which is in no way niche due to its utility against other common Pokemon like Darkrai and Raging Bolt with Encore. Despite complaints about it, the metagame has adapted itself to Kyurem quite well and will continue adapting to new sets like SubProtect, where options like Tera Steel Psychic Noise Latios, alluring voice users, and old favorites like Skeledirge are being explored to curb its impact, which have many other application use cases as well.

While I appreciate the OU Council's swiftness in taking action against threats the playerbase deems to be a problem, the fact of the matter is that this suspect is far too soon after the Gouging Fire suspect. While I generally don't feel that Gouging Fire's ban affected the metagame too drastically, it noticably buffed all of Kyurem's main checks and counters like Galarian Slowking, Iron Crown, Scizor, Tinkaton, Gholdengo, and more. I feel Kyurem was one of the few Pokemon notably hurt by Gouging Fire's ban because of this and I feel more time was needed before we proceeded with this suspect to see if the rise in these Pokemon would help curb its impact.

The closest set to being broken in my eyes is the mixed DD set, which is OP vs stall specifically. To my stall friends who may consider voting ban on Kyurem due to its mixed dd set being frustrating to fight, understand they will target Gliscor next which will destroy stall (& balance) as a whole. They will be citing a "lack of Ice-type attackers" as the thing that pushes scor over the edge. We saw stall get utterly destroyed following Gliscor's ban in the last DLC. We won't make the same mistake again, and Kyurem's presence does a great job in helping Gliscor stay in the tier. Stall has tools to deal with Kyurem, like Tera Steel Cresselia (which has an amazing general defensive profile might I add) but it does not have the tools to deal with losing its best defensive piece and Knock Off absorber.

I will vote Do not ban on Kyurem.

 

[ausma]

Kyurem should be banned.

I'm not super sure whether I'll be able to get reqs unfortunately due to thesis work and personal reasons, but I wanted to make a post real quickly to reiterate my stance on Kyurem and also address a few potential arguments I anticipate will be coming based on the timing of this suspect and the survey results.

--

I made this video about a month ago, and although it's a bit older compared to Pinkacross's recent and more well seen video expressing the same sentiment, it is still 100% up to date regarding what I feel breaks Kyurem, as well as the most dominant sets. In short, I explain how its set variety and relationship with its potential counterplay is extremely imbalanced and skewed overwhelmingly in the Kyurem user's favor, and how it effectively has no counterplay due to its ability to mix and match its sets to apply high levels of pressure to the pool of checks it has across both ends of the defensive spectrum. I mention Substitute + Protect variants, but their ability to not just be useful into offense but beat 99% of bulkier teams and balances by existing creates an even worse relationship with the tier, alongside with the more run-of-the-mill Choice sets that have different methods of counterplay. Its access to Tera Blast accentuates this more, and if anything just seems like insult to injury regarding the things it can randomly beat and how in general it's not very feasible to play around Kyurem. No pressure to watch this if you're not interested, but I word myself a lot more eloquently (and entertainingly) in it. If nothing else, please watch Pinkacross's video, which goes into even more depth about the situation.

--

Regarding some common anti-ban arguments:

I've seen some people argue in the past (and actually just now argued by Magcargo as I started writing this post) that Kyurem is a necessary evil in the tier due to its ability to beat the popular balance cores and, notably, Gliscor. In short, we do not need Kyurem for this. Ice Beam is a relatively common coverage move in the metagame, seeing usage on extremely powerful haymakers such as Darkrai and Deoxys-Speed, and Kyurem still has to combat the Gliscor gameplan, worsened by its relationship with hazards. However even if there aren't enough resources in the tier to deal with Gliscor post-mortem, that should not mean we keep a Pokemon that has a holistically negative relationship with the tier. It's been said before, but I really must reiterate: broken checking broken is not a healthy dynamic, even if it seems like it is on paper, due to the gameplay loops caused by the polarity of said threats. It downplays the web of interactions that otherwise build the foundation of a fluid tier by bottlenecking balance to who has the better set of threats and who positions them better.

Kyurem also doesn't really need a lot of support to function and I'm not really sure I understand this point very well. Many powerful threats need some level of support, and Kyurem's most broken sets doesn't demand a ton, generally speaking. This team I built around the core of Cinderace and Lokix did not have Kyurem in mind as a central member, and it works phenomenally on this team since it complements its gameplan and there are numerous pivots that enable it well by positioning it against the Ground-types it loves to take advantage of (and, in general, a majority of the tier that it hits neutrally with Scale Shot and can win the 1v1 against). This ability to win so many exchanges with a majority of its sets is why it doesn't really need specific pivots to operate well.

To name a few: Cinderace is an insanely good partner for it since Court Change can't be impeded, and there are tons of splashable pivots that core well with it such as Galarian Slowking, Moltres, Ogerpon, and Lokix, to name a few. Even if Stealth Rock end up unstoppable, several of its sets can get away with taking a round of Stealth Rock if push comes to shove, especially post-Tera. Dragon Dance typically is commital anyway, and with Tera and its raw bulk, can leverage a turn or two to get going. This applies to mixed sets in general since they will often stay in for a while to do the things that Kyurem does that are unhealthy. Hazards are super hard to stop from doing work in this tier, but the fact of the matter is that the most common Kyurem sets don't really care since they don't weave in and out in the same way as Choiced sets would.

I might elaborate more on these points later, but let's please get rid of this dumbass thing.

 

[Seraphyde]

In an era where several Pokemon have immunities to status conditions and can heal themselves just by switching out, where we have a box legendary from LAST GENERATION that can 1v1 ALL physical attackers in the tier and most special attackers, we are going after a bulky mixed attacker from 10 years ago that only rose to prominence in the past generation. This is where Gen 9 OU is at now.

Whenever I see someone malding about Kyurem, the first thing that I always ask is, “Do you have a Ground type on your team?” Why? Because that’s the group that Kyurem threatens the most. Ground types are by far the most dominant that they have ever been in the history of OU. Although Landorus-Therian’s dominance is not as strong as in Gen 8, several new Ground threats like Great Tusk, Iron Treads, Ting-Lu, and Clodsire have been wreaking havoc, in addition to the miserable sack of shit that we refer to as Gl*scor. Ground-type coverage is more present than ever, with Enamorus, Garganacl, Glimmora, and others, including Kyurem, making use of it. Tera Ground is one of the premier Tera types. With Weavile and Meowscarada nearly guaranteed to fall to UU next shift, Kyurem is the only relevant Ice type in the tier, and the only relevant form of Ice type coverage is Darkrai’s Ice Beam. Kyurem is vital for keeping all of these threats in check, and several more, such as the bulky Water types of the tier. Now, one can easily argue that such Pokemon can be banned as well, and that’s not incorrect. However, this is only true in certain cases. Mons like Gl-scor or Ogerpon-W could certainly be banned afterwards, but who’s going to argue that Landorus-Therian or Great Tusk should be banned? This highlights another reason why I feel Kyurem is healthy for the metagame: it stops bans from snowballing (no pun intended). If Kyurem goes, who's next? If the subsequent mons go, which are next? Do we really want to live in a metagame where we have a new suspect test every month? Alright, that's enough ranting about Ground types.

I do not believe that Kyurem restricts teambuilding very much. A common argument by Kyurem's opposition is that no team can handle every Kyurem set. There is certainly an argument to be made for this, but what these people fail to realize is that there is no Kyurem set that can handle every team, and moreover, that every Kyurem set not only has its unique weaknesses, but also has shared weaknesses among very set. For the sake of brevity, I will only go after their shared weaknesses, but I do want to touch on one in particular a bit more than the others, and that is the SubProc set that the linked video states can only be beaten by "a Blissey or a Tera Ice special wall". This is not true at all, because it has the same shared weaknesses as the other sets. So, what are they?

If you are overly concerned about "Kyurem Proofing" your team, you really only need one or two of these things.

Knock Off: Fast or bulky Knock Off users can cripple or outright defeat Kyurem, as it cannot take a Knock Off followed by a supereffective attack. Items are also extremely important to how Kyurem functions, HDB removal means it can only switch in once or twice more at best, Loaded Dice removal kills its already shaky consistency, Specs removal will decrease its damage output significantly, and Leftovers removal limits how many times it can substitute.

Priority: Loaded Dice sets in particular fear priority moves as they negate Scale Shot boosts, and priority will force mindgames with status moves regardless of the set.

Hazards: Lack of hazard damage will immediately give away that it's a HDB set, and all other sets take massive damage from hazards. Getting hazards up before Kyurem comes in will severely discourage its presence, and getting them up while it's in will force it to stay in or risk punishment.

Status, Coverage, and Phazing: This is simply obvious.

These are all common things that every good team can should have and can easily fit, far from the exaggerations that people make.

Furthermore, Kyurem is shaky defensively and offensively. Mixed sets cannot reliably break without support, SubProc is heavily reliant on predictions, much like Gl*scor and the other cowards who use the move Protect, and Specs sets can be walled. The argument that it restricts teambuilding seems to mostly come from people who simply do not take threats similar to Kyurem seriously. Anything that's weak to Kyurem is threatened by several other things like Great Tusk and Darkrai that have coverage similar to Kyurem, but it can also be threatened back out by the same checks to Pokemon like that. Even Pokemon weak to Kyurem can threaten it out with their coverage.

I do not feel that Kyurem is as difficult to work around as other banned threats, especially since its set variety is also beginning to plateau. Aside from niche options such as Flash Cannon, Tera Electric, or physical HDB sets, there is not that much that Kyurem can do anymore, as its defensive and offensive profile is not as overly dominant. Special and physical variants are limited by their methods of attack, while mixed sets are limited by their EVs, and the infamous SubProc set has only two attacks to pick from, and can be walled just like a Specs set, contrary to what some people would have you believe. All of these, as stated before, are limited by Kyurem's typing, which makes it reliant on Tera. As a final example of why I do not consider Kyurem to be too dominant, I will bring up the Gouging Faceplate ban. There is an entire decade's worth of time between their debuts, and Kyurem lacks the qualities that made Gouging Faceplate so oppressive. For starters, Kyurem is defensively mediocre, while Gouging Faceplate has a better typing and more optimized stat spread. Thus, Gouging Faceplate is not as Tera reliant, and Tera broke it by allowing it to flip matchups. Kyurem cannot flip matchups as easily because all of its most popular Tera options have weaknesses shared with its same typing or weaknesses to another common type. Meanwhile, mixed sets have to choose between having a defensive stat be hindered by Nature, and it does not have access to Booster Energy or sun boosts. Snow boosts do not save it from SE attacks thanks to its crippling weaknesses. It is telling that bulky attacker Kyurem variants have not arisen like with Gouging Faceplate, because it lacks the consistency and defensive capability that made it such a problem. What is also telling is the lack of Choice Band sets despite Kyurem’s access to the same attacking options, as there are much better Choice Band users that have better speed and typing to match it. Kyurem being handicapped to Loaded Dice illustrates, at least in my opinion, why it isn’t too difficult to check, because it lacks the consistency and staying power that would be expected of a Choice Band user. Specs sets do not suggest otherwise, as they rely on matchup fishing to be successful.

All in all, I personally do not feel that Kyurem is banworthy. I personally do not feel that I have very much trouble with taking it down, nor do I feel like my own use of it is too consistent or powerful. I will conclude by reiterating that Kyurem’s position in the metagame is an important one, checking several Ground and Water threats, some of which would be oppressive without its presence and others which would not be as oppressive but increase in dominance even more. It provides a mixed attacker that OU is quite lacking in, without being too consistent or dominant. Banning it will set a dangerous precedent that will lead to more bans by kicking the can down the road and allowing threats such as Gl*scor and others to restrict team building in the same way that Kyurem is accused of doing.

So now I ask you, do you want to live in a metagame where we have a new suspect test every month? And I also ask you, do you have a Ground type on your team?

I will be voting DNB, and you should too.

 

[heileone]

I will try to summarize my thoughts on kyurem in this post.

I personally do not believe that kyurem is particularly broken or bannable at the moment. If you had asked me my thoughts during the first kyurem suspect, my answer would have been different.

In the past, kyurem used to break teams with its boots set and fish for freezes on its traditional counters, before tearing through the rest of the team with its absurd coverage. This was a very unhealthy and problematic breaking pattern that would leave people frustrated and feeling like they were cheated or lucked out of the game. In the modern era however, this pattern is simply too slow and the teams that boots kyurem thrived on have been phased out of the meta, forcing it to switch to other sets. In my opinion, although it does have a variety of very viable sets, I don't believe that any of them are broken enough to warrant a ban, nor that the sum of the sets is broken enough either.

Let's start with the common complaint about kyurem: It is simply too good at breaking balances with some of its sets. I implore anyone who believes this to be the case to watch this week's OLT games. Let’s just say, there was a staggering amount of balance on display, far more than you would expect from a playstyle that is so effortlessly killed by kyurem. In fact, SD gliscor and iron press zama were FAR more potent sweepers of both balance AND offense. Seriously, watch those games and tell me you still think that kyurem is a more effective breaker than gambit/zama/gliscor. Because from my experience, it really doesn't.

On top of that, the mon is pretty flawed generally. Its utility into offense is not amazing, and it struggles to do much when most pokemon on the enemy team are faster and hit it super effectively. It also limits building to a pretty heavy degree, and only fits on a pretty narrow array of structures. Compare that with something like raging bolt/kingambit who can fit on pretty much every offense and a lot of balances and have a lot more general utility into offense while retaining a similar amount of breaking power AND also have much more defense utility, and kyurem really can’t be called broken in comparison.

I also think the set variety issue is quite overblown. Many of the different sets are obvious from the team structure and there is pretty clear counterplay to every set(unless you're playing stall vs the mixed set… in which case you're playing stall why are you complaining about stall breakers that auto win those are always gonna exist). In fact, I will go so far as to say that kyurem isn’t even the most egregious example of set variety making counterplay hard. Kingambit is a pokemon that can viably run lefties/balloon/lum/glasses and can tera dark/fire/ghost/fairy and can run any 2 of low kick/iron head/fairy blast/ kowtow cleave. All of these sets have vastly different answers and pokemon you need to reserve to keep them answered. Sack your burn guy to keep your ironpresser? tough luck it's tera ghost. Sack your zama to keep your moltres for gambit? tera fire/lum. Ok, maybe keep zama oh its tera fairy blast. Kyurem set variety really just pales in comparison and the set is mostly a lot more obvious than something like a gambit, which is a usually complete wild card until it finally reveals what it is.

Anyway, I outright dont see how kyurem is broken compared to at least 5 other mons that do what it does but better. Skibidi sigma rizz

 

[Espathra Dreaming]

While I do think kyurem is a very powerful threat in the overused tier, I personally find its counterplay able to be able to defend against it. I will be mainly focusing on DD dice and sub tect instead of others as they seem to be the main issues people have with kyurem.

DD DICE.

I want to start out with the issues mainly arising from the loaded dice dd sets. There are a few different spread like dd mixed or dd sub terablast but these all have issues with hazards, priority from scizor, kingambit. Struggle with mons like air balloon tinkaton. Mixed sets will always have a weak attack in either stat whether that be unboosted special moves like the weak freeze dry which misses on important kos or sacrificing the strong loaded dice physical attacks for special attacks . Earthpower is a non stab that can have most steels live and be able to revenge. It does have a strong icicle spear/scale shot but those are easily abusable by mons like scizor who can revenge kill, kingambit who can take one+earthpower if its a bulky set or threaten a kill with sucker if kyurem is weakened and faster mons after +1. To me where dd kyurem becomes annoying is the dd tera blast sets not the dd mixed sets. Tera blast elec/ground/fire can be very annoying to scout but kyurem becomes tera reliant. With elec its barely able to hit steels hard outside a weak earthpower or a tera blast unable to ohko. Fire/Ground while better into the steel mu makes it weaker to mons depending on the 4th move. It also has used tera making the opponent’s tera a valid trade off that isn't disadvantaged for them. And is still slower than booster moth, booster val, booster boulder, scarf meow, scarf darkrai who can all revenge kill a weakened kyurem. While it is by no means a bad set up mon, The counterplay to it is hardly unique with zama, booster/scarf, priority, defensive tera, mons that can naturally live a hit and revenge being how you answer any set up mon in SV. DD tera blast sets while annoying to me point towards an issue with tera blast instead of kyurem and rarely end up being able to steal games from me or for me, though i do enjoy using them.


SUB-TECT.

When this emerged during olt, I think there was an initial panic as teams weren’t prepared for it. This combined with the low pp of most attackers moves, decent speed tier, and importance of olt for a lot of players led to premature complaints about sub tect kyurem. First as does Dice kyurem, it shared a hazard weakness, meaning for it to be able to abuse this set fully, you need solid support with mons like ace, defog corv+tusk, treads. This immediately limits its ability to come into the game as while it does not mind hazards as much as dice due to lefties+protect, the ease to set up hazards in this meta heavily limits its ability to preform as broken as it should be on paper. The meta has also naturally shifted to be able to answer this set. Mons like Spedef Gliscor who can tera, Tera ice glowking, Av crown, Tera ice skele as seen by Storm Zone, cm alluring voice clef that leng loi came up with. Tera ice rest lu which I don't recall who came up with it. Spedef roar molt, Weav+mola teams, spedef zama. There is obviously more nicher sets, like tera ice curse 2 attacks clod that can beat it, tera fairy alluring voice av mola, tera ice curse garg, ou forum mains favorite mon cm alluring voice glaceon that also shares the powerful 130
Base special attack stat making it so that I might even use over it tbh and more. There might be an immediate reaction of the need to tera to answer this on more fat teams, but I do not find that a kyurem issue. These teams outside of using amoongus+good removal often need to use tera for ogerpon, use tera for tera dark gambit, use tera for hex pult with scor. Part of using fat balance teams this gen is having to adapt to the meta and use defensive tera’s to answer threats. Offensive teams on the other end have little issue with sub tect kyurem due to the natural pressure, av crown, and fast strong hitting mons.


There are a few other good sets like specs, dd 3 special attacks, sub nmi, and sub dd dtail i will not go into detail on because the above 2 sets fell like the main argument for a kyurem ban and these 3 feel a bit too mu fishy to be viewed as ban worthy. If I do get reqs I’m pretty mixed but I don’t see this as specifically an issue compared to the other offensive threats we currently have in the tier.

 

[Moyashi]

In an era where several Pokemon have immunities to status conditions and can heal themselves just by switching out, where we have a box legendary from LAST GENERATION that can 1v1 ALL physical attackers in the tier and most special attackers, we are going after a bulky mixed attacker from 10 years ago that only rose to prominence in the past generation. This is where Gen 9 OU is at now.

No offense but this is a serious nothing argument. Pointing out other pokemon that exist in the tier that have no relation to Kyurem itself really isn't making any points (we also only have one status immune mon, and regen mon are nothing new).

The random bit about ground types is really bizarre and also not relevant. Aside from the fact that disregarding Gliscor, no other Ground type is remotely problematic let alone difficult to deal with (and Treads and Clodsire are not "wreaking havoc" lol). Weavile and Meow can drop to UU, but that doesn't mean they're not relevant or unviable (well Meow isn't great but it's still usable). And you oddly left out DeoS, which most people recognize as a very good pokemon that commonly slots Ice Beam. Furthermore, tiering isn't done with a "broken checks broken" attitude (X keeps other things in line, without it those get broken too) as it's an unbalanced dynamic (which Ausma pointed out). IF something becomes harder to handle to the point of being a problem, it's always possible to check them out later. There's nothing wrong with that.

Not that it will happen mind you.

Gliscor who can tera, Tera ice glowking, Av crown, Tera ice skele as seen by Storm Zone, cm alluring voice clef that leng loi came up with. Tera ice rest lu which I don't recall who came up with it. Spedef roar molt, Weav+mola teams, spedef zama. There is obviously more nicher sets, like tera ice curse 2 attacks clod that can beat it, tera fairy alluring voice av mola, tera ice curse garg, ou forum mains favorite mon cm alluring voice glaceon that also shares the powerful 130

I think the fact that people are bringing Tera Ice on a multitude of defensive pokemon (Glowking, Skeledirge, Ting-Lu), is more a case that it IS a problem. If you're loading up a bad defensive tera type on a defense pokemon just to avoid getting haxxed by freeze from Kyurem there's probably an issue. This Tera type generally is poor vs nearly everything else, on a defensive pokemon at least, and I'd say it's alarming that there's even usage of it to try and contain it.

 

[Butter Pancakes]

There’s already been a series of lengthy posts so I’m going to try keep my thoughts concise and simple (I imagine I will ramble)

My biggest gripe with Kyurem is the immense number of different sets and tera’s available to it, this is particularly problematic as these different sets require completely different checks. Accounting for all viable Kyurem sets is already fairly restricting in the builder, but also when battling it can be very difficult to predict the Kyurem set you are facing. There are very limited options - especially those with utility in a non Kyurem MU - that can safely scout for a Kyurem set, as you need to be able to take specs ep/icebeam/freeze dry and be able to respond to dragon dance, additionally, scouting is made harder by overlap between different Kyurem sets, yet still needing different checks. For example, substitute could suggest a pp sub protect stall, when it is actually dragon dance, or freeze dry which features on subtect but also mixed dd.

Kyurems biggest weakness is its weakness to hazards, this can obviously be negated by hdb, but this does give a pretty good idea of what the set will likely be. But with access to Tera, Kyurem can lessen this weakness while gaining additional coverage from Terablast (suspect when?) and sometimes flipping the mu on would be checks.

In my opinion, the combination of being near impossible to predict, very challenging to scout, and then requiring totally separate checks for specs, stall, mixed, phys sets means Kyurem is very frustrating to face as you either need to successfully scout the set which often results in major loss of tempo, somehow preserve all checks which is often not feasible, or roll the dice and guess the set.

And even if you get everything right, you can always get frozen (32 pp ultra spam-able move) and you go from beating Kyurem to maybe?? beating Kyurem, it’s no fun.

Having already gotten the reqs, unless I see very good reasoning as to why it should remain in the tier I intend to vote BAN

 

[hoyesdomingo]

I think

While I do think kyurem is a very powerful threat in the overused tier, I personally find its counterplay able to be able to defend against it. I will be mainly focusing on DD dice and sub tect instead of others as they seem to be the main issues people have with kyurem.

DD DICE.

I want to start out with the issues mainly arising from the loaded dice dd sets. There are a few different spread like dd mixed or dd sub terablast but these all have issues with hazards, priority from scizor, kingambit. Struggle with mons like air balloon tinkaton. Mixed sets will always have a weak attack in either stat whether that be unboosted special moves like the weak freeze dry which misses on important kos or sacrificing the strong loaded dice physical attacks for special attacks . Earthpower is a non stab that can have most steels live and be able to revenge. It does have a strong icicle spear/scale shot but those are easily abusable by mons like scizor who can revenge kill, kingambit who can take one+earthpower if its a bulky set or threaten a kill with sucker if kyurem is weakened and faster mons after +1. To me where dd kyurem becomes annoying is the dd tera blast sets not the dd mixed sets. Tera blast elec/ground/fire can be very annoying to scout but kyurem becomes tera reliant. With elec its barely able to hit steels hard outside a weak earthpower or a tera blast unable to ohko. Fire/Ground while better into the steel mu makes it weaker to mons depending on the 4th move. It also has used tera making the opponent’s tera a valid trade off that isn't disadvantaged for them. And is still slower than booster moth, booster val, booster boulder, scarf meow, scarf darkrai who can all revenge kill a weakened kyurem. While it is by no means a bad set up mon, The counterplay to it is hardly unique with zama, booster/scarf, priority, defensive tera, mons that can naturally live a hit and revenge being how you answer any set up mon in SV. DD tera blast sets while annoying to me point towards an issue with tera blast instead of kyurem and rarely end up being able to steal games from me or for me, though i do enjoy using them.

Ironically enough, I think this precisely encapsulates people's issues with the mon. Consider the number of checks / counters mentioned for just this one set: scizor, kingambit, tinkaton, moth / val / boulder (booster energy, I'll group them together), scraf darkrai, scarf meow. Excluding the very obvious issue that some of these mons just aren't that good outside Kyurem (scizor, esp for me, is not that valuable bc it can't break unaware stall and even w/bp u get clapped by bolt. Lokix is far better against the frail offense you want scizor in), you also cannot reasonably predict the set. How can I determine tera ground TB or tera fire TB? How do I know if it's necessarily even dice (which affects how I preserve my checks). Yes, Kyurem struggles with hazards—but if you're running an offense team and using dd dice, which should be most teams, you're not desperately clammering to get hazards off. I do think that Zama is baloon ghold are temporarily good checks—but

88 Def Zamazenta Body Press vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Kyurem: 230-272 (58.8 - 69.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

And that level of needing to conserve a single mon seems completely unhealthy. Ghold has a similar issue. Between tera type / forth move / dice or not (see Soulwind vs. hellom), there is too much variance in just this one set. I don't think it is inherently broken, but it is paired with other extremely dangerous options like modest specs / nvm-meolt, or subtect

SUB-TECT.

When this emerged during olt, I think there was an initial panic as teams weren’t prepared for it. This combined with the low pp of most attackers moves, decent speed tier, and importance of olt for a lot of players led to premature complaints about sub tect kyurem. First as does Dice kyurem, it shared a hazard weakness, meaning for it to be able to abuse this set fully, you need solid support with mons like ace, defog corv+tusk, treads. This immediately limits its ability to come into the game as while it does not mind hazards as much as dice due to lefties+protect, the ease to set up hazards in this meta heavily limits its ability to preform as broken as it should be on paper. The meta has also naturally shifted to be able to answer this set. Mons like Spedef Gliscor who can tera, Tera ice glowking, Av crown, Tera ice skele as seen by Storm Zone, cm alluring voice clef that leng loi came up with. Tera ice rest lu which I don't recall who came up with it. Spedef roar molt, Weav+mola teams, spedef zama. There is obviously more nicher sets, like tera ice curse 2 attacks clod that can beat it, tera fairy alluring voice av mola, tera ice curse garg, ou forum mains favorite mon cm alluring voice glaceon that also shares the powerful 130
Base special attack stat making it so that I might even use over it tbh and more. There might be an immediate reaction of the need to tera to answer this on more fat teams, but I do not find that a kyurem issue. These teams outside of using amoongus+good removal often need to use tera for ogerpon, use tera for tera dark gambit, use tera for hex pult with scor. Part of using fat balance teams this gen is having to adapt to the meta and use defensive tera’s to answer threats. Offensive teams on the other end have little issue with sub tect kyurem due to the natural pressure, av crown, and fast strong hitting mons.

There are a few other good sets like specs, dd 3 special attacks, sub nmi, and sub dd dtail i will not go into detail on because the above 2 sets fell like the main argument for a kyurem ban and these 3 feel a bit too mu fishy to be viewed as ban worthy. If I do get reqs I’m pretty mixed but I don’t see this as specifically an issue compared to the other offensive threats we currently have in the tier.

I can see why you would call other versions of kyurem hazards weak, but citing that as a specific problem for subtect is just silly. Half the reason why subtect is good is because it is exceptionally annoying to chip down. Are there specific mons that handle it? Yeah crown is decent, but that gets chipped over time—while Kyurem is healing. It's also pretty ironic how half the checks listed are tera-dependent, when in the literal previous paragraph one of kyurem's issues is being cited as "tera reliant." And this one doesn't even necessarily need to tera, which negates the whole "they teraed so I can too" situation.

For my own points: What really pushes this mon over the edge in my eye is just how hard it actually is to battle. You can always try to infer a set, but it's never reasonable enough to do so without at least having a good chance of losing a mon. That's not to say it destroys every team—just that the variance of playing against it is too high, and that you gain too much of a MU advantage because of how deadly the possibility is that it can be sub tect, dd, modest specs—not even factoring in tera types.

If I have time to get recs, will definitely be voting ban.

 

[Seraphyde]

No offense but this is a serious nothing argument. Pointing out other pokemon that exist in the tier that have no relation to Kyurem itself really isn't making any points (we also only have one status immune mon, and regen mon are nothing new).

The random bit about ground types is really bizarre and also not relevant. Aside from the fact that disregarding Gliscor, no other Ground type is remotely problematic let alone difficult to deal with (and Treads and Clodsire are not "wreaking havoc" lol). Weavile and Meow can drop to UU, but that doesn't mean they're not relevant or unviable (well Meow isn't great but it's still usable). And you oddly left out DeoS, which most people recognize as a very good pokemon that commonly slots Ice Beam. Furthermore, tiering isn't done with a "broken checks broken" attitude (X keeps other things in line, without it those get broken too) as it's an unbalanced dynamic (which Ausma pointed out). IF something becomes harder to handle to the point of being a problem, it's always possible to check them out later. There's nothing wrong with that.

I'm aware that "broken checks broken" is not tier policy. That is not my argument. My argument is that Kyurem is not broken, and that it's healthy for the metagame. Furthermore, my point about Ground types, which have already gotten much stronger this generation, is that they stand to gain a LOT from a Kyurem ban, especially the bowl deer and bastard mud fish. There are many prominent Ground types in the tier, compared to past gens where we only had the three staples of Garchomp, Excadrill, and Gl*scor. I do not think that Kyurem really keeps anything from being broken because Gl*scor is broken regardless, Kyurem just makes it appear less broken. I used the other mons as an example of what's actually broken. Kyurem does not have any bullshit tricks, it just simply has good stats and set variety, as opposed to Gouging Faceplate which has Booster Energy, Zamazenta's free +1, or Garganacl and Gholdengo (you missed Gholdengo btw) getting status immunity, as well as the veritable status immunities of Bl*ssey and Gl*scor. I'm also aware that the purpose of this is to focus on Kyurem, but I really feel like its lack of gimmicks is notable when considering its suspect test.

 

[Moyashi]

I'm aware that "broken checks broken" is not tier policy. That is not my argument. My argument is that Kyurem is not broken, and that it's healthy for the metagame. Furthermore, my point about Ground types, which have already gotten much stronger this generation, is that they stand to gain a LOT from a Kyurem ban, especially the bowl deer and bastard mud fish. There are many prominent Ground types in the tier, compared to past gens where we only had the three staples of Garchomp, Excadrill, and Gl*scor. I do not think that Kyurem really keeps anything from being broken because Gl*scor is broken regardless, Kyurem just makes it appear less broken. I used the other mons as an example of what's actually broken. Kyurem does not have any bullshit tricks, it just simply has good stats and set variety, as opposed to Gouging Faceplate which has Booster Energy, Zamazenta's free +1, or Garganacl and Gholdengo (you missed Gholdengo btw) getting status immunity, as well as the veritable status immunities of Bl*ssey and Gl*scor. I'm also aware that the purpose of this is to focus on Kyurem, but I really feel like its lack of gimmicks is notable when considering its suspect test.

Err...

Kyurem is vital for keeping all of these threats in check, and several more, such as the bulky Water types of the tier. Now, one can easily argue that such Pokemon can be banned as well, and that’s not incorrect. However, this is only true in certain cases. Mons like Gl-scor or Ogerpon-W could certainly be banned afterwards, but who’s going to argue that Landorus-Therian or Great Tusk should be banned? This highlights another reason why I feel Kyurem is healthy for the metagame: it stops bans from snowballing (no pun intended).

You straight say that it's vital for keeping threats in check (which it's not, and also weird to talk as if any grounds need to be kept in check when they're easy to handle, not a single one would become oppressive post Kyurem), and also go on to say that you think it's healthy because "it keeps bans from snowballing", which is really leaning towards that kind of logic. If Kyurem left and there had to be another ban, so be it. (also weird to call Clodsire is a "bastard mud-fish" when it's only a solid pokemon, not even close to top tier or being especially good).

Kyurem has countless sets to pull from alongside its versatile stats and flexible Tera type. What do "bullshit tricks" even mean? It's immensely versatile and that versatility punishes play that makes the wrong read against it more than most anything in the tier. Giving Kyurem a free turn to DD or to sub up, can be devastating. Your comparison to other mons as if to make Kyurem seem less bad is just not working. Gouging had Booster, Kyurem gets more item and overall set variety (Gouging stuck with DD while Kyurem runs any of SubTect, DD of many varying types, Specs). Zama's +1 is one time only and it has many roadblocks to get through on average. It can't take most opponent's by surprise like Kyurem can. Garganacl isn't even remotely comparable to Kyurem (and to boot, it actually IS a healthy pokemon that helps Balance styles out), Gholdengo isn't broken at all and hasn't been since Pre HOME metagame (also it's not status immune, status MOVE immune yes, but it's more than capable of being para'd for instance). Not even sure why you'd mention Blissey when it functionally isn't even relevant in the metagame, restricted to stall which isn't even a consistent playstyle right now. I know some great players make it work, but it takes a LOT of skill to pilot effectively right now.

 

[JackRG]

gonna just put this here for anyone who still wants it to stay lol

 

[sisaac_nouise]

if you had asked me my thoughts on kyurem like 20 minutes after this suspect went live i would have said "yeah fuck this thing, it's got to go."

some of the things that are being said to defend kyurem in this thread are just patently untrue, like "every kyurem set has shared weaknesses" (just naming susceptibility to knock-off as a full-on weakness is so wack, and pretending that the tier's most common phasers are fine with eating a specs ice beam/blizzard to the face is just ridiculous). kyurem undeniably puts heavy offensive pressure on every team structure, and it's not really feasible for a lot of teams in the tier to have a reliable defensive answer to it, because even glowking can struggle vs special attacking variants after getting knocked or having a switch read. it becomes less "unfeasible" and more on the verge of "impossible" when you consider that, atm, there isn't a single splashable mon that checks all of the bullshit sets that kyurem can run.

if i'm just being completely, brutally honest: nothing turns me off from playing this tier more than loading up a game, seeing a kyurem, and immediately losing to it because i thought it was boots and it's actually specs/dd + loaded dice/substitute + dd/subtect/mixed dd/holy shit you get the picture. it is the most frustrating and infuriating way to lose a game, especially when you consider that there isn't really a very reliable way to tell what set the kyurem is from team preview. this is perhaps the biggest hallmark of a broken pokemon, save for it having literally no counters (which also could be argued to be a kyurem problem, as its best and most spammable attacks all have a 10% chance of just ruining almost any attempt at defensive counterplay). this is only made worse by the fact that even if you guess the set right, kyurem can run away with games because of its incredible ability to muscle through opposing teams or steal games with freeze hax .

BUT, and this is a big but: i do not want to deny the possibility of reliable kyurem counterplay emerging in a post-gouging meta. it hasn't even been two weeks since gouging was banned, and this suspect feels just a little too soon imo, especially if you consider that gouging (as the tier's only good offensive fire type) was doing a lot to keep potential steel-type kyurem answers from adequately answering kyurem. i would not be at all surprised if, should this suspect test fail or as it goes on, some reliable counterplay to kyurem emerges.

but, ultimately? at the end of the day? if you twisted my arm and held the vote right at this current moment? still probably leaning towards ban right now, but only by a lil bit. would not cry any tears to see this indecisive, ignorant, joe manchin-ass dragon leave the tier. i just want it to be given a fair shake and would advise everyone to keep an open mind as the suspect test progresses.

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

let's set aside the set diversity and the crazy breaking power and the subtect pressure scumminess and the bax-lite setup for a moment. now, don't get me wrong, i already think all of those in combination make kyurem broken, but i'm not here to talk about that. i just want to point out that kyurem comes prepackaged with one of the most uncompetitive, low-risk-high-reward options ever designed. normally freeze is kept mitigated by its low proc chance. it's not typically something the freeze move user is working towards, it's something that simply happens and then you factor it into your gameplan afterwards. but kyurem can work towards freeze and have it as part of the gameplan from the start. when you have 125/90/90 bulk, you can survive a long time, and every turn that doesn't kill you is another opportunity to hit that 10%. kyurem also happens to have 130 sp. atk, so whichever freeze move you choose to spam is doing at minimum solid chip damage to everything except the very bulkiest mons and double-resists. so the absolute worst-case scenario isn't really that bad—you might sacrifice momentum but you're still getting in damage in some way—and the potential benefit of it is a freeze. and because of kyurem's ability to run away with a game upon being given a free turn or two, or upon removing a single check, the reward often translates to "you win the game". and this isn't just one individual rng check for it, every time kyurem uses a freeze move it has a chance to just straight-up win. and guess what happens if you prep for this? whoopsie doodles, this one was dragon dance or specs draco or some other bullshit that just deleted your thing that was immune to freeze. fuck this mon! fuck it right in the head! impale it on a spike and parade its ugly, disgusting, malformed body around the town square

 

[Achohermano]

Kyurem has been conceptually broken since Freeze-Dry was added to its arsenal. In my opinion, at least. If it didn't have sure, it would still be annoying since it has a lot of sets, can sub in the face of a lot of answers to other sets... But at least it would be kinda meh aganist mons like Toxapex (if it's not using sub DD) or AV Alo. Some answers like Dondozo would also get a lot better. Out of the common mons in OU, there are virtually no answers for Kyurem. There isn't a single mon that can safely pivot into every single move.

Common mons, not some Fenzanskidibi niche that while really I think they are super cool, it's like me saying that Darkrai will never be a problem because you can use A-Muk (try it, it's a cool fella). It's not the best of arguments. I know you can also run Scizor (I did and got top 30 last OU season pretty cool mon), or Tinkaton (if it had like 3 more base speed it would be the goat) but this is assuming kyurem is not a boots set and it can't pivot + has no hazard control for some reason...
Or, in fact, does not use tera electric to set up DD in front of this two Pokémon. And can probably make a huge blow or probably win on the spot.
This "niche" answers (or least used or common options, since I don't want to devaluate the ideas), they're not fullproof answers to Kyurem. Since it has Freeze Dry there isn't one in the game, actually.

Tera was mentioned here as an answer to Kyurem, but ironically using Tera on Kyurem can be game winning on the spot (as with Volc, Sneasler, Gouging Fire, Bax, Espathra... I think there's a pattern here). Do some Pokémon gain an upperhand aganist Kyurem with a good tera? Yeah, of course. But does Kyurem also get a game winning chance by also using tera aganist them? Absolutely, Therefore, I don't think tera should be the case winning argument.

I want to also answer to Magcargo 's fear of having Zap-Lu-SlowG core back into the meta. Even if ausma made a really solid argument with mons that would run circles around this core, if there's a world where, idk, Darkrai and Deo-S also get banned (the later being REALLY unlikely, the former could happen but I would vote DNB tbh) you can't keep mons in the tier to stop cores, or mons. Volcarona kept Kyurem in check, should we unban the moth so it can check it again then?
No, we won't, and this is the same here. If in the future, something is problematic, we'll deal with it. I truly understand and share the fear of having Gliscor being EVEN better, but that's another topic that we will deal with after the Kyurem one gets solved.

Also, as DaddyBuzzwole said before me, you also have to keep in mind that aside from everything that Kyurem has (aside from: insane bulk, sets in both sides of the physical / special spectrum that also include mix sets, lowkey a fuck ton of niche options for a move slot, a lot of avaliable useful teras...) the chance to, at any point of the game, just freeze you and get the win instantly. What do you do if your Slowking-Galar gets frozen the second time it pivots in, for example?

Few Pokémon can actually defrost by themselves, mainly Scald users (which don't want to switch into Freeze-Dry for obvious reasons. In fact AV Alo ruins the Mirror Coat strat by actually switching into the move) and Scorching Sand users. From this second group the only Pokémon that can kinda pivot in and out is Sp. Def Moltres. Which is not bad, but that means that your Moltres is much, much worse aganist meowscarada, Weavile, Cinderace, Great Tusk, Kingambit, Zamazenta...

Idk if I'll have the time to go for reqs since I'm having a lot of stuff to do right now at my irl job, but I do it, I'm 100% voting for ban.

 

[ShizuOsaka]

I have used Kyurem to get my req. I don't know when I will get to vote, so I will sum up in my experience here.

Does Kyurem have checks? Yes, but it's for each set. Checking Kyurem becomes much, much more complicate if you get the set wrong. You switch into Glowking? Dragon Dance set will obliterate it. You want to use Dondozo to check it? Don't ever think so because Freeze-Dry hits hard. Kyurem can also patch up its Stealth Rock Weakness and just run Boots with 4 attacks because it can cause devastating damage to pretty much almost every mon in the tier.

I use a basic Boots set and a lot of times, I find that it always has an opportunity to click an useful move whenever it switches in. On top of that, the 10% chance of Ice Beam / Freeze-Dry makes it extremely lethal, especially when the mon you switch in is fully intended as its check (Glowking) or your wincon (Gambito, Zamazenta). Its part Dragon typing can also be somewhat decent defensively, as it can resist both Waterpon's STAB and threaten it out at full health. It also resists attempts to revenge kill from Rillaboom and Raging Bolt, while being able to survive 1 hit of Play Rough at full health.

I don't know I get to vote, but I am certain that I'm 100% voting for ban.

 

[Ruft]

I will probably write a pro-ban post later, but I wanted to nip some arguments in the bud because I've seen them before.

In the pre-home metagame, the tier was in a fantastic state by the end of it. There was a high variety of playstyles, a variety of top tiers such as Hydreigon, Breloom, Amoonguss, Toxapex, and even Hisuian Zoroark. It was a true utopia, where skill and variety dominated and almost anything could work.

Then Home happened. Following the bans of the initial drops like Chien Pao and Regieleki, we saw an evil core rise up to destroy the metagame: This core ravanged the metagame, where "skillful play" was determined by which player got the game winning paralysis dice rolls the most in their favor. The once beloved and cherished SV OU metagame turned into a series of 50/50 dicerolls, where game outcomes were out of the player's control, and in the hands of the RNG gods, deciding which player got the game winning paralysis. Interacting like clicking rapid spin with great tusk became a liability, as tusk would merely get paralyzed and be cheesed while Ting-Lu and Samurott-H destroyed the tier with their Spikes. Thankfully, we had Baxcalibur in this time to save the metagame and not make completely riskless, but it nonetheless dominated the tournament scene and the ladder.

In DLC1, following the ban of Baxcalibur, Gliscor rose to the top of the metagame, being a virtually riskless pick that completely dominated matches with its ability to effortlessly set up Spikes, knock off Boots, and all around outlive every other threat in the metagame. Many of the best teams during this time needed to either be Grassy Terrain, or they would be overwhelmed by Gliscor's peerless longevity and progress making capabilities. The best counter to these gliscor teams was often your own SD Gliscor. In many ways, this metagame was refreshing compared to the paralysis spam 50/50s of the previous post-Home metagame. But here, there was a debate as to whether the cure to the problem was worse than the problem itself. Following Gliscor's ban however, the answer was evidently no. returned with a full vengence, and without its best counter, Baxcalibur, the metagame became more focused around para dice rolls than ever before. It was pure madness, and the victims - the playerbase -realized their mistake far too late.

After seeing the dark ages of the Home and DLC1 metagames, the playerbase has had enough. We have seen the alternative to a Kyurem metagame already and WE WON"T GO BACK. Kyurem keeps many of the playstyles that dominated the past 2 formats like Gliscor balance and ZapKingLu in check. Unlike Baxcalibur, Kyurem is no where near as dominant as a Ice-type, having to rely on either mixed sets or a forced Terastalization for coverage on its DD sets, while also being vulnerable to entry hazards (due to running Loaded Dice) in a metagame where entry hazards are more difficult to remove than ever. Its special sets are quite strong especially SubTect which has been making the rounds as of late. Nonetheless, we have already began to see new counterplay emerge, whether it be Iron Crown, Psychic Noise Tera Steel Latios, Scizor, and AV Hoopa Unbound, all of which utility in checking other common Pokemon such as Hatterene, Gliscor, Roaring moon, and general strong special threats like Raging Bolt respectively, in addition to players being more proactive in setting and maintaining entry hazards, which can pressure Subtect Kyurem over the course of a game. New options like Fezandipti have also began to see usage which players are using to check Pokemon other than Kyurem, like Iron Valiant, Darkrai, and Raging Bolt.

First, ZapKingLu was never as dominant as you make it seem. At the height of it, in the Home meta, during World Cup, the metagame wasn't nearly as centralized as you make it out to be. My team (Europe) was one game away from winning the tournament and we did so by winning finals games with Pokemon like Typhlosion-Hisui, Grafaiai, Brute Bonnet, and Abomasnow (you can check this if you want). Not to mention, none of these three Pokemon have ever had more than 25% usage on the ladder, even on high ladder in August 2023. Come DLC1, and ZapKingLu wasn't dominant in the slightest.

Second, you act like the current tier with Kyurem removed is a ZapKingLu paradise. If it's completely riskless if not for Kyurem, surely it would already be strong? Well, it's not that strong, and it's not (just) because of Kyurem, but because there are a number of threats in the meta that weren't in the Home meta, like the following:

• Gliscor (SD can break the core on its own)
• Ogerpon-Wellspring (SD can break the core on its own)
• Primarina (CM can break the core on its own)
• Darkrai
• Roaring Moon with Knock Off
• ...and many more.

The closest set to being broken in my eyes is the mixed DD set, which is OP vs stall specifically. To my stall friends who may consider voting ban on Kyurem due to its mixed dd set being frustrating to fight, understand they will target Gliscor next which will destroy stall (& balance) as a whole. They will be citing a "lack of Ice-type attackers" as the thing that pushes scor over the edge. We saw stall get utterly destroyed following Gliscor's ban in the last DLC. We won't make the same mistake again, and Kyurem's presence does a great job in helping Gliscor stay in the tier. Stall has tools to deal with Kyurem, like Tera Steel Cresselia (which has an amazing general defensive profile might I add) but it does not have the tools to deal with losing its best defensive piece and Knock Off absorber.

Using "balance will be dominant" as your first argument and "stall & balance will be destroyed" as your last, to spin a Kyurem ban into a negative for stall, is nuts. You're spinning arguments to serve your narrative which end up turning it into contradictive nonsense. What will happen to Gliscor does not hinge on what will happen to Kyurem. I argue Gliscor's most "broken" set is SD Tera Normal, and Kyurem hardly helps to deal with that. Not to mention that if Gliscor were to be banned, stall will adapt and be just fine, just like it was during Home, when there was no Gliscor but stall busters like Baxcalibur were around.

 

[I love Bagon]

its my first time going suspect req, can i vote ? did i fulfill my gxe and game number?
also when can i vote?

 

[Seraphyde]

You straight say that it's vital for keeping threats in check (which it's not, and also weird to talk as if any grounds need to be kept in check when they're easy to handle, not a single one would become oppressive post Kyurem), and also go on to say that you think it's healthy because "it keeps bans from snowballing", which is really leaning towards that kind of logic. If Kyurem left and there had to be another ban, so be it. (also weird to call Clodsire is a "bastard mud-fish" when it's only a solid pokemon, not even close to top tier or being especially good).

Kyurem has countless sets to pull from alongside its versatile stats and flexible Tera type. What do "bullshit tricks" even mean? It's immensely versatile and that versatility punishes play that makes the wrong read against it more than most anything in the tier. Giving Kyurem a free turn to DD or to sub up, can be devastating. Your comparison to other mons as if to make Kyurem seem less bad is just not working. Gouging had Booster, Kyurem gets more item and overall set variety (Gouging stuck with DD while Kyurem runs any of SubTect, DD of many varying types, Specs). Zama's +1 is one time only and it has many roadblocks to get through on average. It can't take most opponent's by surprise like Kyurem can. Garganacl isn't even remotely comparable to Kyurem (and to boot, it actually IS a healthy pokemon that helps Balance styles out), Gholdengo isn't broken at all and hasn't been since Pre HOME metagame (also it's not status immune, status MOVE immune yes, but it's more than capable of being para'd for instance). Not even sure why you'd mention Blissey when it functionally isn't even relevant in the metagame, restricted to stall which isn't even a consistent playstyle right now. I know some great players make it work, but it takes a LOT of skill to pilot effectively right now.

Giving a lot of things a free turn to set up can be devastating, are you going to argue that we need to ban Dragonite or Roaring Moon next? This is the exact mentality that I’m warning about, the more things get banned, the more things will get banned, because people get used to just screaming BAN THIS NOW any time a powerful breaker rises to prominence instead of adapting. You seem to be very nonchalant about bans becoming a regular occurrence. As others have pointed out, this is a VERY recent suspect test in relations to the Gouging Faceplate ban, and viable counterplay is already emerging.

I could also talk about how basically every Pokémon people want banned now sans Gliscor would still greatly benefit the Ground types of the tier, but this really isn’t the place for it and it’s kind of a dead Mudsdale at this point.

“Kyurem is le versatile” is a disingenuous argument because a lot of things are versatile. Bring in a Kingambit on Dragonite or Ogerpon, click Sucker Punch because you’re expecting Earthquake or Ivy Cudgel, oops you got fucking Encore trapped and now you’re about to get game ended because the enemy got guaranteed setup. There are countless examples, but I’m sure none will convince you. How about we ban boosting moves as a whole because so many Pokemon are taking advantage of them?

The best argument for banning Kyurem, in my opinion at least, is Freeze haxxing, which I will concede that it is very difficult to get around, but a lot of people seem to be using it as an extension of the “Kyurem is le bulky” argument, which doesn’t take into account its rather mediocre defensive typing and its weaker ability to abuse Tera compared to Gouging Faceplate.

Also, what the hell do you mean that Gholdengo isn’t immune to status conditions? It totally is. Gholdengo is balanced by being an offensive Pokemon. Hatterene is somewhere in the middle because it can serve both offensive and defensive use, it’s annoying but at least you can hit it SE. Garganacl being status immune is a lot more frustrating because statusing a defensive Pokemon is one of the main ways of forcing progress against it. An outright immunity just straight up removes a method of counterplay that would otherwise be effective against it. It’s funny you mention it, because Garganacl is actually a good Kyurem. It can’t get freeze haxxed and can force it out with Salt Cure in addition to being able to face tank two boosted Earth Powers (since Draco will be useless due to the SpAtk drop).

 

[Finchinator]

View attachment 670350its my first time going suspect req, can i vote ? did i fulfill my gxe and game number?
also when can i vote?

Hey friend, congrats on getting reqs for the first time
Awesome job!

We have a voter identification thread here: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...round-14-voter-identification-thread.3751424/ — post here and you will get verified before the vote goes up. Then, we will tag you with instructions when the vote goes up in a ~10 days.

 

[Pais]

(spoiler alert: I'll probably vote no ban if I do the suspect)

I might be a bit of the odd one out in this thread. While I generally prefer metagames that are slightly less power-creeped, I believe we're under the misconception that removing certain wallbreakers automatically improves the tier and makes it more playable. But is that really the case? Let's try to figure it out together.

I think it's worth rewinding and examining the meta from the point where, at least in my personal and humble opinion, one of the worst tiering decisions was made: suspect testing Volcarona, which resulted in its ban.

It's in the nature of SV OU to have variance as a key element of the metagame, especially with the presence of a mechanic like Tera, which promotes it. Kyurem isn't all that different from Volcarona in that it has many viable sets, but none of them are invincible or without counterplay. While it might limit team-building to some extent (which threat in SV doesn't?), its presence in the meta doesn't invalidate more defensive and less offensive playstyles as often claimed. It also functions as a check to many offensive threats, like Ogerpon-Water or Raging Bolt.

It's no surprise that the removal of certain wallbreakers makes others even stronger. The same thing happened with Volcarona. While it was centralizing, it also managed to keep in check other threats that later became even more dangerous as the meta evolved. I find the traditional approach to tiering to be quite rudimentary when it comes to managing a metagame like SV. I don’t think banning Kyurem just because it has a few viable sets that require more effort to handle, or because it doesn’t have perfect switch-ins, is the right solution: this is an issue that applies to almost all wallbreakers in the meta.

It's no wonder that Kyurem is becoming stronger than usual when, in the first place, a Pokémon that kept it in check (Volcarona) was banned, and only recently another offensive check, Gouging Fire, that could have helped contain it was removed (though its ban was justified).

If Kyurem gets banned, I don’t expect any specific improvement to the tier. Other wallbreakers will emerge, taking advantage of moveset variance and Tera, centralizing the meta and exploiting Kyurem’s absence. Some examples? Gliscor, Raging Bolt, Ogerpon-Water, and many others. Even in the lower tiers of SV, which have a more limited pool of Pokémon compared to OU, it’s evident that certain wallbreakers are able to leverage Tera and moveset variance to dominate their respective tier.

Kyurem’s ban could also lead to disastrous consequences, like a potential ban of Gliscor, a completely fair and balanced Pokémon, that has revived more defensive archetypes by giving them the viability and vitality needed to keep the meta from devolving into a state where only offensive teams can perform well.

I fear that banning Kyurem could trigger a series of changes that would cause the meta to revert to something similar to late DLC1, where offensive threats that were already strong become even more centralizing, and eventually, more defensive threats like Zapdos could begin to dominate the tier, relying on strategies like Static or Thunder Wave.

As an additional point I'd find crazy that Kyurem can potentially go away before Pokemon that when are virtually on the field they can always win the game ( https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9ou-775174 ) or before mons like Darkrai that just need to roll the dice to win the game. Also, there's no single Kyurem set that can 6-0 alone every archetype, and picking a set over another leads to drawbacks for sure.

I will probably write a pro-ban post later, but I wanted to nip some arguments in the bud because I've seen them before.

First, ZapKingLu was never as dominant as you make it seem. At the height of it, in the Home meta, during World Cup, the metagame wasn't nearly as centralized as you make it out to be. My team (Europe) was one game away from winning the tournament and we did so by winning finals games with Pokemon like Typhlosion-Hisui, Grafaiai, Brute Bonnet, and Abomasnow (you can check this if you want). Not to mention, none of these three Pokemon have ever had more than 25% usage on the ladder, even on high ladder in August 2023. Come DLC1, and ZapKingLu wasn't dominant in the slightest.

Second, you act like the current tier with Kyurem removed is a ZapKingLu paradise. If it's completely riskless if not for Kyurem, surely it would already be strong? Well, it's not that strong, and it's not (just) because of Kyurem, but because there are a number of threats in the meta that weren't in the Home meta, like the following:

• Gliscor (SD can break the core on its own)
• Ogerpon-Wellspring (SD can break the core on its own)
• Primarina (CM can break the core on its own)
• Darkrai
• Roaring Moon with Knock Off
• ...and many more.

Using "balance will be dominant" as your first argument and "stall & balance will be destroyed" as your last, to spin a Kyurem ban into a negative for stall, is nuts. You're spinning arguments to serve your narrative which end up turning it into contradictive nonsense. What will happen to Gliscor does not hinge on what will happen to Kyurem. I argue Gliscor's most "broken" set is SD Tera Normal, and Kyurem hardly helps to deal with that. Not to mention that if Gliscor were to be banned, stall will adapt and be just fine, just like it was during Home, when there was no Gliscor but stall busters like Baxcalibur were around.

No flame, I respect your opinion and I can see a bit the vision behind it but I don't see how Typhlosion-Hisui, Grafaiai, Brute Bonnet and unmons argument is relevant in this conversation, fishing MUs has always been a thing in official tournaments, does not mean they're always reliable strategies. Saying also that Zapdos Ting Lu Galarking core was not common in August 2023 is not true at all since there were a lot of players that got into playoffs of OLT with just using these 3 in a mono heavy duty boots archetype. In DLC1 it started to be a thing again after Gliscor removal from the tier.
I don't necessary think that balanced will be insane because SV has always been a tier for offensive teams but playing stuff like zapdos will surely require less drawback and I can see easily static gameplay/gambling being a thing and also it seems you are assuming certain mons will still be in the tier to check the core you were talking about when we all know for example that stuff like Gliscor is on the radar.

 

[EpicGuy321]

In an era where several Pokemon have immunities to status conditions and can heal themselves just by switching out, where we have a box legendary from LAST GENERATION that can 1v1 ALL physical attackers in the tier and most special attackers, we are going after a bulky mixed attacker from 10 years ago that only rose to prominence in the past generation. This is where Gen 9 OU is at now.

Whenever I see someone malding about Kyurem, the first thing that I always ask is, “Do you have a Ground type on your team?” Why? Because that’s the group that Kyurem threatens the most. Ground types are by far the most dominant that they have ever been in the history of OU. Although Landorus-Therian’s dominance is not as strong as in Gen 8, several new Ground threats like Great Tusk, Iron Treads, Ting-Lu, and Clodsire have been wreaking havoc, in addition to the miserable sack of shit that we refer to as Gl*scor. Ground-type coverage is more present than ever, with Enamorus, Garganacl, Glimmora, and others, including Kyurem, making use of it. Tera Ground is one of the premier Tera types. With Weavile and Meowscarada nearly guaranteed to fall to UU next shift, Kyurem is the only relevant Ice type in the tier, and the only relevant form of Ice type coverage is Darkrai’s Ice Beam. Kyurem is vital for keeping all of these threats in check, and several more, such as the bulky Water types of the tier. Now, one can easily argue that such Pokemon can be banned as well, and that’s not incorrect. However, this is only true in certain cases. Mons like Gl-scor or Ogerpon-W could certainly be banned afterwards, but who’s going to argue that Landorus-Therian or Great Tusk should be banned? This highlights another reason why I feel Kyurem is healthy for the metagame: it stops bans from snowballing (no pun intended). If Kyurem goes, who's next? If the subsequent mons go, which are next? Do we really want to live in a metagame where we have a new suspect test every month? Alright, that's enough ranting about Ground types.

I do not believe that Kyurem restricts teambuilding very much. A common argument by Kyurem's opposition is that no team can handle every Kyurem set. There is certainly an argument to be made for this, but what these people fail to realize is that there is no Kyurem set that can handle every team, and moreover, that every Kyurem set not only has its unique weaknesses, but also has shared weaknesses among very set. For the sake of brevity, I will only go after their shared weaknesses, but I do want to touch on one in particular a bit more than the others, and that is the SubProc set that the linked video states can only be beaten by "a Blissey or a Tera Ice special wall". This is not true at all, because it has the same shared weaknesses as the other sets. So, what are they?

If you are overly concerned about "Kyurem Proofing" your team, you really only need one or two of these things.

Knock Off: Fast or bulky Knock Off users can cripple or outright defeat Kyurem, as it cannot take a Knock Off followed by a supereffective attack. Items are also extremely important to how Kyurem functions, HDB removal means it can only switch in once or twice more at best, Loaded Dice removal kills its already shaky consistency, Specs removal will decrease its damage output significantly, and Leftovers removal limits how many times it can substitute.

Priority: Loaded Dice sets in particular fear priority moves as they negate Scale Shot boosts, and priority will force mindgames with status moves regardless of the set.

Hazards: Lack of hazard damage will immediately give away that it's a HDB set, and all other sets take massive damage from hazards. Getting hazards up before Kyurem comes in will severely discourage its presence, and getting them up while it's in will force it to stay in or risk punishment.

Status, Coverage, and Phazing: This is simply obvious.

These are all common things that every good team can should have and can easily fit, far from the exaggerations that people make.

Furthermore, Kyurem is shaky defensively and offensively. Mixed sets cannot reliably break without support, SubProc is heavily reliant on predictions, much like Gl*scor and the other cowards who use the move Protect, and Specs sets can be walled. The argument that it restricts teambuilding seems to mostly come from people who simply do not take threats similar to Kyurem seriously. Anything that's weak to Kyurem is threatened by several other things like Great Tusk and Darkrai that have coverage similar to Kyurem, but it can also be threatened back out by the same checks to Pokemon like that. Even Pokemon weak to Kyurem can threaten it out with their coverage.

I do not feel that Kyurem is as difficult to work around as other banned threats, especially since its set variety is also beginning to plateau. Aside from niche options such as Flash Cannon, Tera Electric, or physical HDB sets, there is not that much that Kyurem can do anymore, as its defensive and offensive profile is not as overly dominant. Special and physical variants are limited by their methods of attack, while mixed sets are limited by their EVs, and the infamous SubProc set has only two attacks to pick from, and can be walled just like a Specs set, contrary to what some people would have you believe. All of these, as stated before, are limited by Kyurem's typing, which makes it reliant on Tera. As a final example of why I do not consider Kyurem to be too dominant, I will bring up the Gouging Faceplate ban. There is an entire decade's worth of time between their debuts, and Kyurem lacks the qualities that made Gouging Faceplate so oppressive. For starters, Kyurem is defensively mediocre, while Gouging Faceplate has a better typing and more optimized stat spread. Thus, Gouging Faceplate is not as Tera reliant, and Tera broke it by allowing it to flip matchups. Kyurem cannot flip matchups as easily because all of its most popular Tera options have weaknesses shared with its same typing or weaknesses to another common type. Meanwhile, mixed sets have to choose between having a defensive stat be hindered by Nature, and it does not have access to Booster Energy or sun boosts. Snow boosts do not save it from SE attacks thanks to its crippling weaknesses. It is telling that bulky attacker Kyurem variants have not arisen like with Gouging Faceplate, because it lacks the consistency and defensive capability that made it such a problem. What is also telling is the lack of Choice Band sets despite Kyurem’s access to the same attacking options, as there are much better Choice Band users that have better speed and typing to match it. Kyurem being handicapped to Loaded Dice illustrates, at least in my opinion, why it isn’t too difficult to check, because it lacks the consistency and staying power that would be expected of a Choice Band user. Specs sets do not suggest otherwise, as they rely on matchup fishing to be successful.

All in all, I personally do not feel that Kyurem is banworthy. I personally do not feel that I have very much trouble with taking it down, nor do I feel like my own use of it is too consistent or powerful. I will conclude by reiterating that Kyurem’s position in the metagame is an important one, checking several Ground and Water threats, some of which would be oppressive without its presence and others which would not be as oppressive but increase in dominance even more. It provides a mixed attacker that OU is quite lacking in, without being too consistent or dominant. Banning it will set a dangerous precedent that will lead to more bans by kicking the can down the road and allowing threats such as Gl*scor and others to restrict team building in the same way that Kyurem is accused of doing.

So now I ask you, do you want to live in a metagame where we have a new suspect test every month? And I also ask you, do you have a Ground type on your team?

I will be voting DNB, and you should too.

did a Raging Bolt write this? or a Heatran? why are you blaming us for using ground types? your point about there not being a Kyurem set that beats every team doesn’t make much sense considering that most Kyurem sets are going to put in significant work over the course of a game no matter what archetype it’s facing. and that’s not even mentioning the occasional Freezes. your switch in has a chance of becoming useless every time it switches into a special ice move.

edit: you seem to just hate stall based on your other messages here.

 

[JackRG]

alright so I just hit reqs last night and I have a lot to say

previously I would have voted DNB on Kyurem, but now I legitimately think this tier is doomed if it stays.
lets start by listing all of the (Viable) sets it can run

-Specs
-Boots 4 attacks
-Physical Dragon Dance
-Mixed Dragon Dance
-Subtect

Lets start with specs and boots, since they usually run the same 4 attacks and play very similarly. In the case of specs, it can pair with gking to give it easy switch ins, give it a 50% defense boost, and on occasion even let it spam blizzard. That same Blizzard allows it to 2 shot even glowking, and even puts immense pressure on blissey, doing around 30%. The boots set doesn't have nearly as much power but is prehaps even more deadly due to the fact it doesn't need to worry about hazards

Speaking of hazards, that seems to be a popular argument for the DNB crowd, so lets address that

Kyurem threatens out pretty much every hazard setter, so in practice its very easy to deny hazards with it. Clodsire, Gliscor, skarm, Ting-Lu, Lando, tusk, and clef all get cooked by it, and even something like Garg is taking a lots from specs. Faster setters like DoS can get up hazards aganist it, but generally those only fit on more offensive teams, which kyurem is not controversial into. Even if you do get hazards up aganist it, the hazard removal this gen isn't anywhere near as bad as people say it is. Something like great tusk can put enough pressure on spinblockers to spin at least once, which if often all that's needed due to the reason listed above. However, imo specs and boots are only debatably broken so let's get to the really atrocious shit.

Physical Dragon dance runs dragon dance, icicle spear, scale shot, then a tera blast of your choice (ground, electric, fire, and fairy all come to mind, but there's definitely more. It also preys on everyone who thinks they can slap glowking or blissey on a team and be okay aganist it. The possibility of specs also usually demands a special wall like the previously mentioned glowking or blissey come in, giving the dragon dancer even easier setup.

Mixed Dragon dance might be the scariest out of everything I've listed so far, and thats because it really has no counters. It is super good for a lot of the same reasons physical dragon dance is, but also doesn't need to commit to tera and has a even easier time preying on physical walls like mola and dondozo. Icicle spear does a lot of damage to pretty much everything that isn't a physical wall, and those lose since it has freeze dry and earth power.

Alright I've saved the worst offender BY FAR for last, subtect. Like seriously, this set legitimately takes no skill to use and the entire purpose is to fish for freezes (which is it honestly very consistent at). you think Iron crown beats it? have fun getting ohko'd by tera ground earth power. Glowking? Already not a good switch in due to the dragon dancers listed above, but even then it still takes a lot of damage from earth power. Also encore is only a temporary answer since its 8 pp is cut in half to pressure, and then cut in half again if they protect on it, meaning you only get to use it twice aganist kyurem in most cases.

People will try and say "its only a 10% chance to freeze" but this is honestly a absurd argument considering how many times a game subtect gets to spam it.

1 - 10%
2 - 19%
3 - 27.1%
4- 34.39%
5- 40.951%

you get the idea. With just 4 freeze-dry's, the chance of a freeze is already more likely than a focus blast miss. The move also has 32 pp, giving kyurem plenty of chances to score this freeze.

lastly idk why I'm even wasting my time mentioning this, but tera ice is ridiculous lol. I shouldn't have to waste my tera on turning my wall into the worst defensive type in the game LMFAO. Seriously use your brain.