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Metagame np: SV DOU Stage 7: Behind the Mask

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finally getting around to this

I think unbanning Basculegion-M was a big mistake! For multiple reasons! Just gonna start with the mon itself though.

This mon is still dumb as heck
I really shouldn't have to explain why Last Respects is good, its probably the best endgame cleaner in the game because of how often you can end up OHKOing everything, especially on HO structures where it's most prominent due to how often 3/4 mons die before it. This was the same before DLC 1, its the same here too. There are some endgames where it is literally impossible to play around because it's so hard to avoid its OHKOs in the later stages of a match. The issue is, because of the sheer amount of damage it outputs, defensive counterplay is extremely limited because few things have the actual natural bulk to take an Adaptability boosted Last Respects, Dark-Types are either offensively oriented (Chi-Yu and Chien-Pao), harder to fit, or just plain bad. Normal-types are in a similar boat, with Ursaluna being an offensive Pokemon who can lose a lot of health from burn or eating attacks, while Farigiraf and Indeedee-F can be harder to fit (with the latter arguably being considerably worse than it was previously). Tera Normal is an option on Pokemon that don't need their tera anyways (mainly Volcanion) but isn't always available (mainly due to tera needing to be used earlier in the game). As such, defensive counterplay is extremely limited or unreliable (calling Chi-Yu a Basculegion switch-in is not good because you can get OHKOd with 3 mons down), making offensive counterplay the more viable option. However, being faster than scarfed Basculegion isn't the easiest thing, since the paradox mons can usually only do it once with Booster Energy (outside of sun teams) and Choice Scarf users aren't common. Prankster Tailwind can help....but considering Basculegion has a Tornadus to back it up most of the time, it cancels out (and in late games it's more likely to not be a factor). That pretty much leaves priority as the best option due to how easy it is to add it to a team and how it effectively ignores speed tiers entirely. The issue with priority comes with how easy it can be to add counterplay in either tera types that resist Grassy Glide or Sucker Punch, or a priority blocker like Farigiraf, both of which entirely stop the most common (and cited reason!) method of keeping Basculegion-M in check. Farigiraf isn't something you can necessarily put on a wide swathe of teams, but it works extremely well on offense and compliments Basculegion greatly, and while using tera removes the Adaptability boost, a good portion of the time its still enough due to the raw strength of Last Respects. You can point to replays of Basculegion being kept in check by Grassy Glide sure, but you can also point to once where the counterplay gets countered with ease like this one (or where the counterplay isn't there and Basculegion just wins lol). Did I mention it can live Grassy Glide without tera? What effectively happens is Basculegion forces either Rillaboom or Chien-Pao on teams in order to reliably answer it in late games (I don't care that Ogerporon gets Grassy Glide, you can't use it without Rillaboom regardless) only for it to potentially not even answer Basculegion. That just isn't remotely healthy and I really think it should be banned asap.

I do also want to touch on how Basculegion was unbanned without any input from the community when the change was a singular move with no other substantial changes to help balance it when the suspect that lead to it being banned was extremely decisive (35-11 isn't really close, at all.). Especially considering how few people were or are actively defending it, which strongly suggests this was an unban barely anyone in the community wanted, and I doubt that has changed at this point. Unbanning pokemon previously banned by a suspect is fine if there were significant changes to the metagame between its ban and unban, and a literal singular move that can be easily circumvented does not seem that significant. I really hope more thought it put into what is on the slate in scenarios like these, because frankly this is just baffling to me how this was allowed to happen.
 
So as always I’m here to provide my reasoning for my votes, this time I’ll focus on my Basculegion vote since it seems the hot topic. This week we got some actual evidence on its place in the metagame in the form of replays, so I’ll bring every replay from ssnl and Homefield that used Basculegion. By my count Basculegion is featured in 21/63 matches, which is a fair amount but not overwhelming by any means.

Replays where Basc looks too strong:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9doublesou-719713
Basc loses to a Tera normal & a bleakwind storm miss. I agree Tera normal isn’t the ideal way to check it, but it was pretty clear they were playing to this exact out, so it is an option.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9doublesou-719806
Basc successfully pulls off a late game sweep. The opposing player wasn’t able to successfully position their dark type on the field behind screens until it was too late, which seemed to be their check.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9doublesou-1955360809-8u6s53gy68thd6jgvzf5rtb73usgg3zpw
Basc outspeeds and ohkos a grass that would be a check.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9doublesou-1957292401
Basculegion wins in the end, as the Basc player is able to put on too much offensive pressure vs a bulky set up team.

Replays where Basc doesn’t look too strong:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9doublesou-1955635145
Opposing player successfully uses tailwind & chien-pao to neuter Basculegion.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9doublesou-1956459636
Rain Basculegion runs into sun and isn’t effective.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9doublesou-1956956439-aotopb35ae68c7pmq82boysuu8cwz0kpw
This one is interesting, both players bring Basculegion and both players adequately check it, leading to it not accomplishing much for either side. Checks on either side include a will-o-wisp mon, a normal type, sucker punch, Dragapult (who outspeeds Scarf), Rillaboom, and Garganacl.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9doublesou-1956949665-9x9h2pl233op1mi3kaeis5dkldu5pp9pw
Here Basc is forced to aqua jet a scarf chi-yu, which chi-yu lives and in return kos basc.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9doublesou-1957127168-rrdkl5yeaz6q7yjo0z7ggmyjd5lwkr6pw
Basc rain plays against sun HO, and despite some solid positioning isn’t able to do much.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9doublesou-1957170336-gw77qv9h2e8lc5du8724efwbkv5pbv1pw
Basc again plays vs sun and isn’t able to accomplish much. Since sun is a pretty popular archetype, basc players need to be careful into it.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9doublesou-1954050196-z37ufhdzr0lp69d21zzmw7v8jdpjf37pw
Basc plays into sun again and struggles to do anything.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9doublesou-719810
Grassy glide + torn keep Basculegion from accomplishing much.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9doublesou-720530
Both players bring Basculegion, but both players also are able to check it with Tera grass heatran, grassy glide, and a normal type in Farigiraf.

Neutral replays:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9doublesou-719804
Basc didn’t really come out here.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9doublesou-719808
Basc gets kos but the game was already won.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9doublesou-720253
Basc doesn’t get any kos, gets some damage in on a CP Jirachi.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9doublesou-1956119638-3qxjxd0h4er53t3ornj5k81z40wxtfxpw
Doesn’t take the field in this one.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9doublesou-1956280521
Just flip turns twice here (which is a nice addition to It’s arsenal, but any water type with flip turn could have done the same).

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9doublesou-1957164440-99uauzhw27z1lw828cgs478a41iq0tapw
Here neither basc does much until the game is already over.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9doublesou-1957033564-12vsuiz932hdaaqyf1uwb995sycplbmpw
It fails to ko iron hands here that ends up making it lose, but also gets an impressive ko, so I’ll put it in neutral even though it loses.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9doublesou-1957074935-ljrka9cf8c20i1ucnaorjs384g6yq6upw
Both players bring it here, but neither does too much that couldn’t be done by any other water as they just click wave crash + Aqua jet.

So in all we have by my analysis:
4 replays where it seems too strong.
9 replays where it’s adequately checked.
8 neutral replays.

All in all, I think that this shows there are options to check Basc, and that players are using these without having to go way out of their way. I understand if others feel that Basculegion is too strong, but I think there’s enough checks right now. It’s possible as the metagame develops Basculegion teams may adapt to these checks, and my vote may change, but right now it doesn’t quite look banworthy.
 
Basculegion's impact on the builder chokes out any team composition that isn't "screaming fast" or Rillaboom + 2-3 other checks, and with teambuilding options being so limited, Basculegion's high ceiling often means it powers through theoretical counterplay. There is very little room in a Basculegion metagame for anything bulky. Basculegion's calcs at 200BP Last Respects, or often less, are just not ok. OHKOing glass Chi-Yu, a resist, with a scarfed move is beyond obscene. Rillaboom also needs it IN RANGE of glide before attempting to check it or it is just dying to 200BP Last Respects, again, a scarfed move. Great check. There's not really too much of a recourse for these teams besides Teraing and praying to god you got the turn right (Indeedee-f is not a check 252 Atk Adaptability Basculegion Wave Crash vs. 252 HP / 240 Def Indeedee-F: 248-292 (72 - 84.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO).

The majority of replays where it doesn't perform are ones against (sun) hyper offense, which is inherently not going to struggle against something you can set Tailwind against and take out pretty cleanly. Basculegion is not strong against (sun) hyper offense - I do not think you can really make an argument for that one. I do not want a metagame where Tornadus, Rillaboom or hoping to god the opponent hits into the normal-type are the near-mandatory checks.

Additionally, I don't think these replay analyses do enough of appreciating the qualities of Basculegion, when its bulk, threat level and endgame warping ability are a constant threat. I clicked on a random one:


I really cannot agree with this analysis. Fede's Basculegion took a STAB Sucker Punch from one of the strongest offensive mons to the face (with health to spare, so it wasn't in jet range!) and then the Basculegion speed tie decided it. Basc's stupid levels of power (WITH A SCARF SET) let it OHKO a relatively normal bulk Pokemon towards the end of the game. This is the mark of a stupid Pokemon.

There are a few others here that I just don't agree with being an accurate judgment of Basc's power level (SMB vs Lemurro: unburned Basculegion won this game much easier and the Will-O-Wisp was extremely avoidable). I appreciate the volume of replays brought up but I don't think they go deeper than the surface when looking at this.

More than absolutely anything about Basculegion, however, is how fucking long this slows down tier development. We have Posts here with support for at least a Flutter Mane suspect, at least a Hands suspect, and a million other things. Ursaluna was something freed by the council that we could probably use a test on, as well. 3-4 weeks is a long time for a nearly foregone conclusion when we have a content drop this December, and especially when we're in the middle of our premier team tournament + the new Homefield + a seasonal. I'm not trying to change anyone's votes or whatever, I just think the outcome is immensely disappointing, and we are going to have a less fun and less community-driven tier as a result of it.
 
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For the record, my Basculegion there was an adamant 252 atk 252 speed build with zero investiments both in HP and physical bulk scarf build that entered the game in a very negative position, completely outnumbered by Eragon's team that was still in possess of Tornadus for a late game tailwind anyways.

Rather than a testament to how many checks there are for this particular Pokèmon it's a testament of my short-sightness in that particular game: it wasn't just meant to be, Basculegion needed to enter the stage way earlier than that to have a in impact but my monkey brain took control there as I totally underestimated its potential even without 4 Ko'ed mons on my side. If anything, the fact that a completely bulkless mon, almost 100% of the times used as a fast and offensive threatening presence, is able to survive the strongest sucker-puncher in the game is absolutely mindblowing if not worrisome for the health of the tier.
 
For the record, my Basculegion there was an adamant 252 atk 252 speed build with zero investiments both in HP and physical bulk scarf build that entered the game in a very negative position, completely outnumbered by Eragon's team that was still in possess of Tornadus for a late game tailwind anyways.

Rather than a testament to how many checks there are for this particular Pokèmon it's a testament of my short-sightness in that particular game: it wasn't just meant to be, Basculegion needed to enter the stage way earlier than that to have a in impact but my monkey brain took control there as I totally underestimated its potential even without 4 Ko'ed mons on my side. If anything, the fact that a completely bulkless mon, almost 100% of the times used as a fast and offensive threatening presence, is able to survive the strongest sucker-puncher in the game is absolutely mindblowing if not worrisome for the health of the tier.
Right, but let’s acknowledge that it lived because the Chien-Pao was intimidated, if it wasn’t then it’s a clear ohko.

I simply looked at every single tour replay we have involving Basculegion to cut out all hypotheticals to see how it actually performs in the metagame. If someone disagrees with my analysis of games then they’re free to do that, but there’s still the overall evidence in my opinion that Basc isn’t overpowering in the metagame.
 
Right, but let’s acknowledge that it lived because the Chien-Pao was intimidated, if it wasn’t then it’s a clear ohko.

I simply looked at every single tour replay we have involving Basculegion to cut out all hypotheticals to see how it actually performs in the metagame. If someone disagrees with my analysis of games then they’re free to do that, but there’s still the overall evidence in my opinion that Basc isn’t overpowering in the metagame.

This still doesn't address a big reason cited for Basculegion's unhealthiness in multiple posts - teambuilding strain. Most of the replays you cited of Basculegion being checked are when it runs into the same stuff: Tornadus Sun HO or Grassy Glide with multiple users (or something entirely avoidable happens, but I'm not spending my morning analyzing every replay). There's a clear pattern - if you want to be able to consistently beat Basculegion, you use some form of Tailwind HO or Rillaboom. Both are fine in their own right, sure, but you shouldn't be forced to run either to check a singular Pokemon. That's just not healthy period, and amplifies the pre-existing builder strain due to the amount of strong attackers in the format. I would really prefer this part be addressed since you can clearly see the pattern in the replays (and sometimes it not even working!).
 
This still doesn't address a big reason cited for Basculegion's unhealthiness in multiple posts - teambuilding strain. Most of the replays you cited of Basculegion being checked are when it runs into the same stuff: Tornadus Sun HO or Grassy Glide with multiple users (or something entirely avoidable happens, but I'm not spending my morning analyzing every replay). There's a clear pattern - if you want to be able to consistently beat Basculegion, you use some form of Tailwind HO or Rillaboom. Both are fine in their own right, sure, but you shouldn't be forced to run either to check a singular Pokemon. That's just not healthy period, and amplifies the pre-existing builder strain due to the amount of strong attackers in the format. I would really prefer this part be addressed since you can clearly see the pattern in the replays (and sometimes it not even working!).
What I pointed out is how it it is being successfully checked from the tools we have in the metagame. Even before Basculegion was legal, archetypes featuring Tornadus & Rillaboom were extremely popular, with those two being fourth & fifth in usage in tournament play.

If you dig into replays and analyze games, there are plenty of checks possible, like how Chien-Pao checks it in this replay, how scarf Chi-yu does it here, and how both Wisp + Garganacl and Dragapult checks it here.
 
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fwiw, i still believe flutter mane was broken in home meta and didnt belong in that format either, and torn and rilla are some of the more reliable checks to it since one sets tailwind to get past its absurd speed stat to let teammates abuse its weak defence stat, and the other is able to live any hit bar tera fairy specs beads moonblast, and ohko with wood hammer.

i dont think every team should be required to have both of those pokemon just to have a fighting chance against two of the most broken pokemon ever seen in a doubles format.

additionally your earlier stat of 21/63 would put basculegion at 33% usage above nearly every pokemon you have quoted as checks or counters. on top of it basically running over teams that aren’t packing all of rillaboom tornadus and sunny day or a scarf chi yu (or both)

i dont think forcing players into running three or more dedicated basc counters is healthy, this mon is nearly as warping as melmetal was
 
Just to chime in, there's no doubting objective facts (like those being shown through replays, statistics, surveys, and etc). I get that people might not like certain mons in the DOU tier, but being biased isn't the way to go about it. That's the problem we're having here rn.
 
Just to chime in, there's no doubting objective facts (like those being shown through replays, statistics, surveys, and etc). I get that people might not like certain mons in the DOU tier, but being biased isn't the way to go about it. That's the problem we're having here rn.

Analyses of replays aren't objective facts. The initial post with them bucketed them into categories that obviously will take Human Thought - I can disagree with how much impact Basculegion had on a game.

Also, I don't know why analysis is being discouraged? Players having different opinions and being able to back them up with discussion is a good thing?
 
Analyses of replays aren't objective facts. The initial post with them bucketed them into categories that obviously will take Human Thought - I can disagree with how much impact Basculegion had on a game.

Also, I don't know why analysis is being discouraged? Players having different opinions and being able to back them up with discussion is a good thing?
Thing is, I never mentioned anything about subjective analyzations. Not sure where you got that impression from. I can agree, though, with people having different opinions. Diversity is always a good thing.
 
More than absolutely anything about Basculegion, however, is how fucking long this slows down tier development. We have Posts here with support for at least a Flutter Mane suspect, at least a Hands suspect, and a million other things. Ursaluna was something freed by the council that we could probably use a test on, as well. 3-4 weeks is a long time for a nearly foregone conclusion when we have a content drop this December, and especially when we're in the middle of our premier team tournament + the new Homefield + a seasonal. I'm not trying to change anyone's votes or whatever, I just think the outcome is immensely disappointing, and we are going to have a less fun and less community-driven tier as a result of it.


+1 to this entire post, qsns nailed it, as did many other posts in this thread. However, i'm also going to focus on the last part of this post because it's particularly good.

Fundamentally, we all have a different view of what a 'balanced' metatgame looks like, there is no denying that fact. Some people enjoy the broken checking broken style of Pokemon we have going on, while many do not. We have 3-4 Pokemon in the tier that could very easily be suspect, but instead, the tier leaders and council members freed a Pokemon that was PREVIOUSLY BANNED by the community without a suspect, in what god damn world does that make any sense? That simple display alone gives the community the feeling that the tier leaders just don't give a shit about our opinion on the matter.

My other big gripe with how the council has been operating is the inherent lack of responsibility or justification showed by nearly every member on it. There are members of the council who haven't made a SINGLE POST IN AN NP THREAD THE ENTIRE GENERATION yet we the community are suppose to be okay with them altering the metagame and freeing Pokemon because they're subjectively better than your average player?

qsns and zoe already hit the nail on the head as far as Basculegion being restrictive before you even get into the battle, you're forced to run Tera Normal, you're forced to run certain style of teams or you just straight up lose to it. If you don't agree with that sentiment you simply just don't understand how to build a good team in DOU. Also I would rule out tournament stats as far as SCL is concerned because players are just agreeing to not use Basculegion vs each other because of how fucking dumb it is, and thus, it will have lower usage than what's actually represented.
 
Sv: too many titans

Sv brought powercreep as never seen before. Prehome we saw 3 titans stay in dou being hands chiyu and chienpao. Even with just 3 restrictive mons, we only suspected hands which didnt get banned. Now post dlc there are also flutter oger basc and ursa.

The main issue I see is there's enough opinion that the top mons balance each other out so they are not broken, which makes a suspect of many of these mons id expect to end in dnb. In reality all of those mons are broken and restrictive. In fact there are so many brokens that one of em, Ursa doesnt have good mu vs many these top mons making it even arguable for t2. I think that shows just how bad things have gotten.

My suggestion is something that i doubt would go thru but, a suspect test where all of these brokens are banned together, to test how the meta feels without them. Since its a bunch of mons instead of 1, can do some survey afterwards which ones ppl feel should be banned, or all. Sv is quite a special case with too many brokens so i think we need to try diff things. Maybe this not considered as suspect test but format test? thankfully, this idea completely follows tiering policy.
 
Would like to throw my idea into this hat.
To be honest, As a Relatively new(?) player to competitive in general, I notice that Basculegion and Flutter Mane are the definition of what is broken in metagames. I wasn't around for Magearna or Melmetal, but from what I have heard about those 2 is that Basc+Mane are arguably more detrimental to the metagame than those two were. You can fact check me, or just call me wrong, because again i have never played in that period of time.

From what I have Teambuilt and played (Showdown Ladder and Cart, not mentioning Smogon Tours because Basc was never legal in one i played), They are very overpowering. If you don't account for Flutter mane or Basculegion, there's a 75% chance you lose on preview. It is mandatory to have Tailwind or you won't outspeed it, and if they also have Tailwind you need priority, and the only good user for priority which checks both of the massive threats are Rillaboom & Chien-pao, but then they just Tera to resist Grass or Dark. In my opinion, they are much, much better than Iron Hands or Ogerpon. They need to be Quickbanned ASAP.

I would also like to mention that I haven't seen a statement from half the council members, and that is completely unacceptable. You are simply NOT ALLOWED to unban something, have a couple of council members defend it, and then ghost everyone. If i recall correctly, more than 2/3rds of people who voted on the Basc slate wanted him banned. You can't just unban it without a warning or Suspect Test. That's all, let me know if I missed anything, just my take.

Edit: I did not mean to be rude or cause any harm to any of the Council Members or Anybody else. :regiF:
 
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Some great comments above! Personally, I had wanted to transition to playing more current gen, but then I would get frustrated/depressed thinking about the state of the SV Meta, especially post Teal Mask DLC. There are like 4-7 busted mons that probably should (and will eventually in most cases) get banned (including ones the community has already tried to ban before tbh). However, it would take many months of traditional individual suspects to clear this backlog. I feel like any viable teams I tried to build now would be rendered forever unusable within 1-3 months. I could put in the time to learn the current Meta, but it will almost certainly face radical changes soon. So what would be the point? I thought maybe I was the only one who felt these frustrations (just an inveterate old gens curmudgeon), but, based on others' comments, apparently I'm not.

I think RelicanthPrimal's idea of a "format test" is intriguing and worth exploring. It would be very helpful to experience what a Meta without the power creep inducing "titans" of SV feels like. The big question in my mind is how best to pull it off. Immediately banning 6-8 of the most popular mons for a week plus would disrupt things for normal ladder players, whose teams would suddenly be rendered unusable, with a high chance that not all of those affected mons would ultimately be ban hammered. One alternative would be to put up a separate SV DOU ladder with all those mons banned for a couple weeks and have a suspect on that ladder or a ladder tour type event to determine voting (Doubles room tours could supplement that as well). An important question would be whether we could make such a ladder work or it would be too dead. I think if it were placed right next to the current SV DOU ladder on the format selection screen it could probably work, given that the current DOU ladder still has very good traffic (nearly 280K battles last month). Even if 1/10 of that (most of the tour bros and some normal ladder guinea pigs players) could be on the new test ladder I think it would be workable. One concern with a major format test would be that we're expecting more DLC content pretty soon (probably pre-Christmas). So I think we'd either want to move on a format test ASAP or wait until after that DLC drops and do the test closer to year end. However, either of those options would be preferable in my mind to what I see as the likely alternative of 6-12 months of individual titan testing, interrupted by other tours/events, with tons of second guessing based on the pseudo "balance" created by having so many broken mons still legal.
 
Masc being freed is a joke. The community voted it out with over 75% ban votes, and 2.5 months later it's back without any community say in the matter. The reason given was that increased access to priority checks basc, but that doesn't really hold up to much scrutiny. Aside from the option of simply defensively teraing your Basc (which costs you the adaptability boost but you still get the ohkoes), support like Farigiraf, Indeedee, or Intimidate can allow Basc to take its ohkoes relatively uncontested, but the best partner is actually Ogerpon-Hearthflame.

1696610369064.png


While being a pretty broken mon in its own right, simply slapping follow me on the mon allows it to stop Grassy Glides and Sucker Punches aimed Basc's way. It's a pretty trivial combo, but tbh I'm not sure how the council missed it so I'm bringing it up. You're not supposed to let the neutral typing ohko button exist in the tier you guys! Do better.
 
There's a lot of equating 'should be banned' = 'should be quickbanned' and 'should be banned' = 'should never have been freed' and some confusion around the tiering process so I think I should start by clearing that up. The way I see it there's an order of how strongly I have to feel about a Pokemon to support that action:

vote for suspect test < vote ban in suspect test < vote to quick ban
Community sentiment also factors into the decision, aside from for what I personally vote in a suspect test, obviously. Even if I don't personally think something is suspect worthy, if there's enough public backing then I'm still in favour of supporting having a suspect test. On the other end it's the opposite, I won't vote to quick ban something if I am on the fence of it being banworthy, there needs to be more of a reason to justify bypassing the proper process of a suspect test. It should also hopefully go without saying that I won't vote to quick ban something that I personally don't think should be banned, if you disagree with that stance then I think we just fundamentally disagree on the role of council.

Similarly to being in favour of suspect tests, I'm also in favour of being more liberal with testing if something is actually okay rather than banning it quickly (or never giving it a chance at all) - if it's too strong it can still be banned, but if it isn't then it can actually make its case unlike if it was banned prematurely. In other words, testing something which warrants it, even if it still ends up banworthy, is still the right move (process-oriented decision making > results-oriented decision making, also doing things properly rather than hastily and incorrectly). People can also be quite hasty to jump on the train of something being broken, Landorus-I in SS being the biggest example, but this gen we've also seen people certain that Chi-Yu would be broken with the release of home (it actually got worse). I'm not immune to this myself, I expected Iron Hands to be banned in the suspect pre-home, but the community felt differently.

Some people have questioned why hasn't Flutter Mane been quickbanned, which is an example of jumping the gun from "it should banned" => "it should be quickbanned", suspect testing is the proper procedure for bans, quickbans are supposed to be exceptions, I feel like people forget this at times. In this case as qsns pointed out Flutter Mane has been in the meta for a while, had almost no mention in the previous np thread, and the new meta hasn't made it any stronger than before. If you want something banned you should make a forum post about it, Mizu is really the only one to do so for Flutter Mane so far.

As to why we would unban a Pokemon when there's a significant metagame change, that is a standard procedure. Just because a Pokemon was found to be banworthy in one meta does not necessarily mean it will be in another, and undoing bans after a significant metagame change is perfectly reasonable. This happens across all Smogon tiers, and has happened before in DOU with things like Volcarona in SS, or this generation with the release of home.

As for the reasoning for why I voted to unban Basculegion, I do not understand how we are dismissing Grassy Glide as just "a singular move", last generation it was literally THE move, and Grassy Glide Rillaboom defined the metagame. Yes Glide has been nerfed, but it's still an incredibly strong form of priority, and Rillaboom was already seeing 40-50% usage without it. A Pokemon weak to Grassy Glide (in OHKO range, in fact) having Glide Rillaboom added to the meta is literally the single most significant meta change there could be for a Pokemon that I can think of. Just look at the unban reasoning given by qsns and Actuarily:

voted DOU on Ursaluna and Rapid Strike Urshifu.

:urshifu-rapid-strike: Urshifu-R:

This is entirely to see in a metagame test whether Grassy Glide Rillaboom is enough to contain it. Very ready to be wrong on this and vote Ban in the future, but the current issue is that Tailwind + Surging Strikes does not have great counterplay right now and would like to give this a test. It is probably still dumb

:ursaluna: Ursaluna:

I think that this could be dropped into the metagame now and we'd be fine. It'd be powerful, but fine. I think the community has gotten a lot better at punishing Cresselia-based strategies and even though this is a big power upgrade on them, there's counterplay such as Palafin, 50% usage Lando-T, and just out offensing the TR once it's down with Pokemon like Chi-Yu/Flutter or Basc-F that have risen a lot since R1 of OSDT.

Rest of the elements I believe to be fundamentally uncompetitive/game-warping (Tatsugiri, STag, Annihilape) or too high of a power level with not much new to come check it (Single strike, Basculegion, Magearna), though these all could change given more information on the new 'mons.

Just wanted to quickly give my reasonings on some of my votes, especially the ones that changed from last slate.

:Ogerpon: The Ogerpon forms are each quite good, but I haven’t seen enough from them that would make them bannable. I’d say the Hearthflame mask form is t1 (and is the closest to being banworthy), Wellspring is t2 for it’s great support, and cornerstone is t3.

:Ursaluna: & :Basculegion: As we’ve begun to see, grassy glide being reintroduced in SV alongside the Ogerpon forms has really made grass-weak Pokémon take a beating. So both of these Pokémon who are grass weak and rely on attacking first to ko before they take damage back are in a much more difficult position. As previously I was very on the fence with each, this has put me in the belief that they should be freed so we can see how they feel in the metagame.

252+ Atk Rillaboom Grassy Glide vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Ursaluna in Grassy Terrain: 242-288 (52.1 - 62%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery and burn damage - comfortably lives even with Tera Grass
252+ Atk Rillaboom Grassy Glide vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Urshifu-Rapid-Strike in Grassy Terrain: 252-296 (73.9 - 86.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery
252+ Atk Rillaboom Grassy Glide vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Basculegion in Grassy Terrain: 356-420 (93.4 - 110.2%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO


Grassy Glide was central to their reasoning on Urshifu-R and Ursaluna (as it was for me and I'm sure other members of council as well, along with for Basculegion), with qsns even going as far as saying it would be fine to drop Ursaluna based purely on metagame trends, without the actual addition of any new checks! Considering these two Pokemon were banned more quickly and by a larger margin (or by quickban as opposed to suspect test in the case of Urshifu-R) than Basculegion, while also taking Rillaboom's Grassy Glide better; I don't get this line people are drawing where there was enough change to free Ursaluna, but not Basculegion.

To be clear, I don't think Grassy Glide is the only change going against Basculegion either, metagame trends after it was banned are also negative for it, like more Sucker Punch coming from Kingambit and Chien-Pao, more Indeedee-F and Farigiraf (which are immune to Last Respects and can Trick Room/redirect), more Landorus-T to intimidate it (which Basculegion has limited potential to switch out of and reset due to the nature of Last Respects requiring few teammates left alive), more Sunny Day on Tornadus (which lets non-Booster Energy Flutter Mane outspeed even with a Tailwind mirror), more Dragapult (which outspeeds Choice Scarf), and more Chi-Yu (which can eat a Last Respects, especially Grassy Seed sets). That's in addition to Ursaluna now being legal again as another Last Respects immunity, and Ogerpon existing as an additional Grassy Glide option.

Even if you now believe Basculegion should be banned, that does not mean the decision to free it was incorrect, and I hope I've demonstrated how there was more than sufficient change to warrant that decision.

My other big gripe with how the council has been operating is the inherent lack of responsibility or justification showed by nearly every member on it. There are members of the council who haven't made a SINGLE POST IN AN NP THREAD THE ENTIRE GENERATION yet we the community are suppose to be okay with them altering the metagame and freeing Pokemon because they're subjectively better than your average player?

This is a legitimate point and one we will be addressing going forwards, ensuring council members are active in posting their thoughts. We are in the process of laying out a set of formal expectations for council members, to help raise standards and ensure members sufficiently meet the needs of the role.
 
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