np: Stage 3-4 - Wait why is this so familiar didn't I just go through this what did I

[ultimifier]

your missing some VERY important points in that analysis. Empoleon needs to be at 25% or lower to be at that speed and special attack, and the 225% boost (not 200%) only comes in for water attacks. Its only a 150% for the other coverage attack.

This means that empoleon is not only at a much lower health, but it only has two moves to attack with instead of three. Empoleon is thus less powerful on average AND has much mess health than manaphy. He may have a higher speed which helps against latias, gengar, jolteon, etc. but he lacks the power to OHKO many threats that resist water because of only 1 coverage move

 

[eastamazonantidote]

Petaya only boosts 1 stage. Sorry.

353 * 1.5 = 529
299 * 2 = 598

Manaphy wins this one.



Also, pure Water is a fantastic type. Empoleon suffers from Grass Knot issues, even without the weakness, as well as Ground and Fighting problems. An inability to come in on Heatran is a severe blow to any Water type. Resistances don't mean so much against anything not Choiced. Fighting and Ground being very common (and often used in conjunction with moves Empoleon resists. read: lure), Empoleon's typing is not as big of an advantage as it would first seem. However, the difference is still large. You should take into account Manaphy's ability to heal instantly OR sweep. Empoleon's tanking abilities are lacking even with a RestTalker set, mostly because of those key Fighting/Ground weaknesses.

I also agree with the post above me. Manaphy can sweep with full health while Empoleon struggle above 25%.

 

[StarWizard]

Unlike Empoleon, Manaphy doesn't scoop to Mach Punch. Empoleon may resist Bullet Punch and Extremespeed, but I'm not even sure it survives all of those under 25% hp. Choice Band Scizor should kill it with Bullet Punch, no?

Granted, Mach Punch isn't too common in OU, but Empoleon is a lot harder to set up than Manaphy, and does so with less bulk and with a more powerful Water attack only when Torrent is active. Comparing both doesn't make Manaphy look less good, by any means.

 

[Stylish Interval]

Comparing the set-up and how easy it is to take them down afterwards, however, can.

Pursuit just fainted a Pokemon? Bullet Punch just fainted a Pokemon? Draco Meteor was just fired off? Send in the Empoleon to set up. Can Manaphy set up on these Pokemon? Well, it won't be outspeeding Specs Latias or Choice Tyranitar when they come back in.

Empoleon can come in and set up, hitting a nice 428 Speed. It takes less than 25% from both Bullet Punch (Scizor) and non-boosted Espeed (Lucario), and other priority attacks are really less common (or they're Fake Out; Ambipoms does less than 25% as well). Mach Punch is very rare so there is almost no threat there.

Now, if those are your answers it's going to be gg. You need something with a higher speed or Mach Punch / Vacuum Wave to beat this after it sets up. Scarfer is the only common option.

The Pokemon that resist Water in the top 25 of OU are Salamence, Latias, Gyarados, Starmie, Vaporeon, Suicune, Breloom, and Celebi. Ice Beam deals with all of them but Vaporeon, Suicune, and Starmie. If those are out of the way, Empoleon is looking at a pretty clean sweep, regardless of HP, unless you have a scarfer or uncommon Mach Punch.

So really, the 25% HP doesn't have a factor in whether or not Empoleon sweeps. The difference is, Manaphy can be outsped by way more Pokemon. So of course, how much HP Manaphy has matters; it's going to need it to continue a sweep. Empoleon is looking at maybe three or four outspeeding it and the rare Mach Punch user, so it doesn't matter how much HP it has.


Relating to the Suspect Metagame, I've been using a Sceptile that has fared me well in the few battles (10 or so) I've had. Jolly, Life Orb with Leaf Blade, EQ, and Dragon Claw with either Sub or SD. It can faint Latias, Tyranitar, and Manaphy and not much has really been threatening it. Maybe that's because I have yet to run into a Heatran! :P

 

[haunter]

Unlike Empoleon, Manaphy doesn't scoop to Mach Punch. Empoleon may resist Bullet Punch and Extremespeed, but I'm not even sure it survives all of those under 25% hp. Choice Band Scizor should kill it with Bullet Punch, no?

No, it takes 14.1% - 16.7%, Empoleon is 4x resistant to steel. LO ES from Lucario only does 19.6% - 23.1%. Empoleon will usually beat both of them even when at 25% of its health.

Granted, Mach Punch isn't too common in OU, but Empoleon is a lot harder to set up than Manaphy, and does so with less bulk and with a more powerful Water attack only when Torrent is active. Comparing both doesn't make Manaphy look less good, by any means.

Empoleon has access to hydro pump while Manaphy only has surf. To put things into perspective, a +1 hydro pump from Empoleon hits harder than a +2 surf from Manaphy. Actually hydro pump has a good chance of ohkoing a defensive Raikou, doing 79.3% - 93.5% whereas a +2 Manaphy will only manage 71% - 83.7% with surf. A life orb 3 attacks Empoleon hydro pump hits almost as hard as a +2 surf from Manaphy does, doing 69.2% - 81.7% to the same Raikou, with the same type coverage of the standard tail glow 3 attacks Manaphy.

Sure, hydro pump only has 80% accuracy, but when you consider that Empoleon can boost its speed while still hitting hard like a truck, whereas Manphy will always be exposed to revenge killing from many Pokemon above 328 Spe, then you shouldn't be so bold when you say that Empoleon is worse than Manaphy as a sweeper.

Also, Manaphy of course has slightly better overall defences, but being resistant to dragon and 4x resistant to steel type attacks, gives Empoleon many opportunities to set up, probably more than Manaphy. Empoleon immunities to sandstorm and toxic spikes are something more to consider when making these comparisons.

 

[Rising_Dusk]

For the record, Haunter, you forgot to factor in Torrent into the damage calculations. Empoleon's Hydro Pump would utterly maim that Raikou when he's at the 25% level.

Empoleon has access to hydro pump while Manaphy only has surf.

Okay, yeah, but he's suffering from the 4-move syndrome now. You've said a +1 Hydro Pump off of a +2 speed, so he is using a SubPetaya set. Now if you don't want him to Hydro Pump every turn at the risk of the 80% accuracy, then that means you also run Surf for accuracy (and only HP when the OHKO is possible). Or, if you plan on using HP over Surf entirely, you run Grass Knot to deal with some possible counters. This makes you lose Ice Beam, though, which means that while Latias (Specs) can't outspeed you - she takes only 60% max from a +2 Hydro Pump and can return fire with a Dragon Pulse to finish you off.

The nice thing about Manaphy is that with just Tail Glow and three attacks, she gets perfect coverage in Surf, Ice Beam, and Energy Ball. Empoleon can run something similar, but unfortunately it trades the +2 SpA Manaphy gets for a +2 Spe to outspeed common threats. (And loses tons of important KOs)

 

[Stylish Interval]

Life Orb 3 Attack Set can use Agility + Hydro Pump + Grass Knot + Ice Beam.

Haunter just showed that the Life Orb Hydro Pump has nearly the same power as a +2 Surf.
The Ice Beam still hits Latias for 70.9% - 83.4%. Just light weight waters (Starmie and Vaporeon) become more of a problem for Empoleon.

 

[haunter]

For the record, Haunter, you forgot to factor in Torrent into the damage calculations. Empoleon's Hydro Pump would utterly maim that Raikou when he's at the 25% level.

I didn't factor in torrent purposely...

Okay, yeah, but he's suffering from the 4-move syndrome now. You've said a +1 Hydro Pump off of a +2 speed, so he is using a SubPetaya set. Now if you don't want him to Hydro Pump every turn at the risk of the 80% accuracy, then that means you also run Surf for accuracy (and only HP when the OHKO is possible). Or, if you plan on using HP over Surf entirely, you run Grass Knot to deal with some possible counters. This makes you lose Ice Beam, though, which means that while Latias (Specs) can't outspeed you - she takes only 60% max from a +2 Hydro Pump and can return fire with a Dragon Pulse to finish you off.

Ripping off 60% from Latias with a resisted attack is quite impressive if you ask me. And anyway, as stated above, LO 3 attacks Empoleon hits as hard as TG Manaphy does, with the same type coverage, but with enough speed to outspeed naive scarf-Heatran and anything else below that. And anyway, some Manaphy sets have the same moveslot problem, substitute is as useful on Manaphy as it is on Empoleon.

The nice thing about Manaphy is that with just Tail Glow and three attacks, she gets perfect coverage in Surf, Ice Beam, and Energy Ball. Empoleon can run something similar, but unfortunately it trades the +2 SpA Manaphy gets for a +2 Spe to outspeed common threats. (And loses tons of important KOs)

It's just a matter of preference, but in most cases, especially against offensive teams, a +2 speed is more useful than a +2 Spa as with the Spe boost Empoleon becomes extremely hard to stop, while Manaphy is still sitting there at 328 Spe. A plethora of Pokemon can switch in after Manaphy has fainted something and revenge kill it (a physically based mix Ape does 64% - 75.4% with CC). The point is: Manaphy and Empoleon are different kinds of sweepers, but saying that Manaphy is that better is completely untrue in my opinion.

 

[Son_of_Shadoo]

Still, uninvested 100/100/100 with weaknesses only to grass and electric (both very easily handled by the rest of your team) is better than uninvested 70/70/70 defenses with weaknesses to ground, fire, and fighting.

I'm a little sceptical on this. First, Ground, Fire and Fighting are also easily resisted by the rest of your team, so that point is moot. Second, residual damage should definitely be factored in here. Both take damage from Spikes and Hail, but Luke 4X resists SR, and is immune to the rare Toxic Spikes, not to mention the ever-present Sandstorm. So, Luke definitely gets an easier switch in on the residual front.

 

[Rising_Dusk]

I didn't factor in torrent purposely...

We were discussing the SubPetaya set and you jumped right to the LO. I didn't notice.

Ripping off 60% from Latias with a resisted attack is quite impressive if you ask me.

It is, especially on her extraordinary SpD side. However, that was a +1 Petaya +1 Torrent boosted Hydro Pump. On the LO set, Empoleon's Hydro Pump deals 39% to Specs Latias at best. (But has Ice Beam with that speed, so who cares)

And anyway, as stated above, LO 3 attacks Empoleon hits as hard as TG Manaphy does, with the same type coverage, but with enough speed to outspeed naive scarf-Heatran and anything else below that. And anyway, some Manaphy sets have the same moveslot problem, substitute is as useful on Manaphy as it is on Empoleon.

All points agreed. Substitute is arguably less useful on Manaphy because of the lack of Torrent and Tail Glow boosts instead of a +1 Petaya boost. Still, it blocks status and gives her a nice buffer, like Empoleon. It makes more sense to compare the three attacks sets of the two anyways, since they're essentially the same with minor differences.

It's just a matter of preference, but in most cases, especially against offensive teams, a +2 speed is more useful than a +2 Spa as with the Spe boost Empoleon becomes extremely hard to stop, while Manaphy is still sitting there at 328 Spe. A plethora of Pokemon can switch in after Manaphy has fainted something and revenge kill it (a physically based mix Ape does 64% - 75.4% with CC). The point is: Manaphy and Empoleon are different kinds of sweepers, but saying that Manaphy is that better is completely untrue in my opinion.

I agree with most of those points. Manaphy is still fairly easy to set up, though, especially with it lacking the ground and fighting weaknesses of Empoleon. (And still being resistant to fire) I agree that the handy resistances to ES and 4x to Bullet Punch and immunity to Toxic Spikes are great, but still.

They are different kinds of sweepers. Still, I'm not convinced. I think that whereas Empoleon's weaknesses to ground and fighting let him mesh into the OU metagame fine and dandy, the OU metagame has to restructure itself more to handle the inclusion of Manaphy.

 

[Bologo]

I think that whereas Empoleon's weaknesses to ground and fighting let him mesh into the OU metagame fine and dandy, the OU metagame has to restructure itself more to handle the inclusion of Manaphy.

And what exactly is the problem with that? The metagame always has to restructure itself whenever a new threat rises, a new pokemon is introduced, or if a suspect gets moved down.

 

[The SPrinkLer]

With Manaphy I find the metagame is over-centralized. Latias is on a ton of teams, so basically anything that stops it is on a team as well. I've seen a lot of gimmicky stuff trying to stop Manaphy as well, like Sceptile. Manaphy has been a potent threat, but I wouldn't say it's particularly broken.

 

[Quaily]

My highest rated shoddy team had a life orb empoleon, and it was incredibly destructive but also incredibly rare(starmie is OHKO'd by grass knot by the way). Only 11% of them use life orbs, and it's not a very highly used poke. I don't think it's going to hit nearly as hard as a TG manaphy though, empoleon only has a slight edge because it can run modest and has 11 more spa.

If we compare the damage on standard rotom, who is a very common switch in it's:

77.96% - 92.11% from empoleon hydro pump
103.95% - 122.70% from timid manaphy's surf

so manaphy definitely has more power, but it will get outsped by scarf rotom or the speedy electrics who empoleon has a 100% chance of OHKOing(minus untimely misses). Bit of a toss up, the thing I would put in favor of manaphy is it isn't a sitting duck without a TG. Empoleon cannot be an effective attacker without agility.

 

[haunter]

With Manaphy I find the metagame is over-centralized. Latias is on a ton of teams, so basically anything that stops it is on a team as well. I've seen a lot of gimmicky stuff trying to stop Manaphy as well, like Sceptile. Manaphy has been a potent threat, but I wouldn't say it's particularly broken.

Overcentralization has always characterized the suspect ladder, at least since december 2008, when I started my involvement in the suspect process. Centralization has never been a parameter to evaluate the uber status of the Pokemon that cause it. You're 100% correct: Manaphy is a potent sweeper, but not a broken one.

If we compare the damage on standard rotom, who is a very common switch in it's:

77.96% - 92.11% from empoleon hydro pump
103.95% - 122.70% from timid manaphy's surf

so manaphy definitely has more power, but it will get outsped by scarf rotom or the speedy electrics who empoleon has a 100% chance of OHKOing(minus untimely misses).

These calculations seem wrong, according to Smogon damage calculator a 4 HP \ min SpD Rotom takes: 100.8% - 119% from a +2 Manaphy's surf, and 97.9% - 115.7% form a LO Empoleon's hydro pump; a ohko in both cases.

Bit of a toss up, the thing I would put in favor of manaphy is it isn't a sitting duck without a TG. Empoleon cannot be an effective attacker without agility.

Without the TG boost offensive Manaphy just lacks the raw power to wreck things. Other than countering Gyarados (assuming hp electric) and some fire types it's pretty much useless. Empoleon has its uses even without agility, though that set is arguably the most threatening one. And anyway this point is kind of irrelevant, as we're going to decide whether Manaphy and Latias are uber basing our decision on their best sets. Scarf Garchomp was not broken at all in my opinion, but its SD set was devastating and that was enough to vote it uber.

I think that whereas Empoleon's weaknesses to ground and fighting let him mesh into the OU metagame fine and dandy, the OU metagame has to restructure itself more to handle the inclusion of Manaphy.

And what exactly is the problem with that? The metagame always has to restructure itself whenever a new threat rises, a new pokemon is introduced, or if a suspect gets moved down.

My point, exactly. The metagame would just adapt itself to face a new threat, if Manaphy moves down from ubers.

 

[Quaily]

I had a life orb on manaphy, vs a 252 hp bold rotom.

 

[Rising_Dusk]

My point, exactly. The metagame would just adapt itself to face a new threat, if Manaphy moves down from ubers.

It's as Doug once said, we shape the metagame. I do agree in that I don't think Manaphy is particularly broken without its Uber Kyogre support, but... Well, the way that the metagame has to adjust for these threats leaves it open to others. I'm not sure that's necessarily a bad thing, but Manaphy's counter lists include a bunch of Pokemon that are all dealt with by ScarfTar or are relatively unseen in the current OU metagame. With how overcentralized the Suspect metagame is, I am not so sure that OU wouldn't end up doing the same thing with Manaphy in it.

Again, maybe that's not a bad thing. I've been kind of up in the air over Manaphy lately.

 

[frogbandit]

Specs Latias, although powerful, can be taken advantage of nicely with any good Steel-typed sweeper. Let Latias kill something with Draco Meteor and be at -2. Now bring in your Steel sweeper (Agiligross, SD Scizor, SD Lucario, RP Aggron, Empoleon, or hell even DD Tyranitar) and set-up on a weakened DM. If I look at my team and see that little to nothing can stand in the way of a Scizor sweep for example, I would gladly sacrifice something (Like Manaphy) to bring in my Scizor, go for an SD and sweep. Although Specs Latias is very powerful, it doesn't have the power that big brother Latios had (Where even Steels were massively damaged). A player can't do what they did with Latios and go "I'm going to click Draco Meteor now and see something die" with Latias. Mindlessly spamming Draco Meteor can easily cost you the game.

But the fact that you even have to sacrifice something to deal with Specs Latias says something about how powerful it is.

Also, I don't think it is quite fair to compare Manaphy and Empoleon as sweepers, as they are quite different. Especially in the sense that Empoleon can actually take Specs boosted Draco Meteors (even Thunderbolt has a large chance of not OHKOing, without SR). They run pretty different sets, and Empoleon needs to rely on something with Agility, either SubPetaya or Three Attacks, to be able to sweep effectively. Empoleon also doesn't have the ability, overall defenses, and moveset to run a set with Rest, which is one of Manaphy's niches.

 

[Acritter]

But the fact that you even have to sacrifice something to deal with Specs Latias says something about how powerful it is.

Also, I don't think it is quite fair to compare Manaphy and Empoleon as sweepers, as they are quite different. Especially in the sense that Empoleon can actually take Specs boosted Draco Meteors (even Thunderbolt has a large chance of not OHKOing, without SR). They run pretty different sets, and Empoleon needs to rely on something with Agility, either SubPetaya or Three Attacks, to be able to sweep effectively. Empoleon also doesn't have the ability, overall defenses, and moveset to run a set with Rest, which is one of Manaphy's niches.

But it's not sacrificing something to revenge Latias, it's sacrificing something to sweep your opponent's team.

 

[Quaily]

Unless they have something like a scarf magnetzone? or defensive zapdos? That's a pretty poor reasoning since the chance of one pokemon sweeping every team out there is nil. People leave themselves open to sweeps all the time with choiced attackers like tyranitar. Even though scarf tyranitar is set-up bait for lucario it's been mentioned many times as a specs latias check.

 

[akarias]

once set up empoleon's a beast: his main problem is the difficulty of setting up lategame. Also lucario beats empoleon at 25% health np with stealth rock down. Empoleon is designed as a one-hit wonder: set up once and clean up. The problem is at 25% health the common things that surefire counter empoleon with SR down are scarfrachi (fire punch always ko's), scarfgon, lucario, blissey, scarf latias, and vaporeon, at the top of my head. Not to mention unlike suicune, raikou, and manaphy, empoleon really needs the set up to be effective. manaphy hits almost as hard as starmie, but with the option to easily double the damage.

 

[shrang]

Empoleon doesn't really have trouble setting up at all, due to his resistances. Yes, I know stuff like Scarfrachi, Scarf Flygon and Scarf Latias are going to screw with you even with +2 speed, but since it's late-game and you're going to set up, I presume revenge killers like those will be eliminated already (Otherwise what the hell is the point). Also, the Agility + 3 Attacks doesn't need that much set up either (Just bring it in on Surf or something like that and Agility up like Metagross). As Haunter has stated, a Life Orb boosted Hydro Pump coming from LO + 3 Attacks Empoleon is about the same as a +2 Surf from Manaphy anyway.

Not to mention unlike suicune, raikou, and manaphy, empoleon really needs the set up to be effective.

No, I completely disagree with this (Apart from maybe Raikou). Suicune and Manaphy both need to set up if they hope of doing any damage at all. Suicune needs to get 2 Calm Minds up to be anywhere near threatening, and Manaphy can't do jack shit without Tail Glow. Empy can have Life Orb and just spam powerful attacks, while unboosted Surf from Manaphy or Suicune will be laughed at.

 

[ARandomDude]

Has anyone tried out Shedinja? Manaphy and Latias both can't touch him. I've been using MonoCM Manaphy to bluff a sweep while actually clearing sand, ScarfRade to stop suicide leads, Starmie to spin, and BaitLatias to clear out TTar. Firing off X-Scissors first thing works well, OHKOs Abomasnow and takes more than half off TTar if they try to come in.

 

[shrang]

That seems like an awful amount of support. Shedinja is good only if you can clear out everything that can touch him, and that can be an awfully long list.

 

[SJCrew]

I think the biggest problem with Manaphy right now is the OU mentality that disallows it from reaching its true potential. A lot of people have opted to confine themselves to tried and true conventions dictate it be used like any other sweeper in the standard metagame by slapping on a Life Orb, Choice item, or a weakness-covering berry. I'm not saying they aren't good strategies, but "good" doesn't get a Pokemon into Ubers and we're not going to reach any proper results if we continue to adopt the mindset that it's just like any other OU sweeper and should be used as such. Honestly, if that were the case, it would have been OU a long time ago and its counters would have been everywhere by now.

After having tried a good number of different ideas that many other players suggest is the best set for Manaphy, I've safely concluded that absolutely none of them are broken and they're checked pretty hard by the likes of Specs Latias, Snorlax, Blissey, and others. I was swaying toward OU myself, right up until I realized the reason so much controversy surrounded the little droplet in the first place was because of the Rain Rest set.

So I gave it another shot, switched a few team members, mixed the EVs a little, and abandoned the idea of any Pokemon on my team other than Manaphy benefiting from the rain. To my surprise, it works phenomenally and trims the list of Pokemon who could effectively counter it full-stop to nothing. Being immune to status and having its STAB boosted, Manaphy can easily kill anything that tries to stop it or stock up on Tail Glows and prepare for a sweep. Either way, your best bet is to try and Trick it as it sets up, phaze it, or kill it on the revenge. Either way, once its rain support is up and running, the odds are against you.

Everyone needs to reevaluate their strategy regarding Manaphy and start taking advantage of its best assets. If we allow it in the standard metagame, it's going to run right through everything and severely limit team options for the sake of "countering" it.

 

[shrang]

RainRest + Tail Glow/Calm Mind has major moveslot issues. Unless you have a support Pokemon with Damp Rock setting up rain for Manaphy (Even then, your entire plan can be stopped easily by Tyranitar), all he's going to have as an attack move is Surf. We've already been through the Cro-Phy set and at least I think that's Manaphy's weakest set, too many things can just come in on your resisted Surfs and set-up (Gyarados, Salamence, Kingdra, etc). Celebi can just Perish Song you, and Vaporeon will wall the hell out Manaphy too. The problem in OU is that Kyogre is not there to provide rain for Manaphy, therefore he's going to have to sacrifice a move for Rain Dance if you're even considering of reliably having Rain up when he's boosting. When that happens, all Manaphy is going to have is Surf. It really needs to get up to +4 or +6 to be doing any significant damage to resisted enemies, and like I've posted before, if I send in Blissey against Manaphy that just Rain Danced, I'm NOT going to keep it in.

That said, RainRest + Boosting Move + Surf is certainly a threat (Although out of his sets, it's his weakest) lategame (If your opponent does not have Perish Song, Nightmare, Curse Encore or Trick, he's going to win). However, this can pretty much be said about any boosting Rester, namely Crocune, Curselax and so on. Manaphy doesn't really have anything exceptional over them (RainRest is cool, but isn't reliable by any means). Suicune has better defenses, Snorlax can Thick Fat and great Special Defense.