np: Stage 3-4 - Wait why is this so familiar didn't I just go through this what did I

[Bologo]

Against Blissey, another common Latias counter, Latias has to predict perfectly and use Trick. And even after Trick, Blissey can still force Latias out with Seismic Toss or Ice Beam. Trick is a one-time use for Latias, which means that Latias only gets one chance to remove a counter with Trick. Teams often carry more than one Latias counter, so even if Blissey gets Tricked, ones team will probably be able to deal with the less-threatening Leftovers Latias. Latias has many viable counters and checks, making it not be Uber.

To add to this, many teams are using Choicers to absorb Trick. There's Scarf Flygon, Jirachi, Tyranitar (obviously), Heatran, Metagross, Manaphy, Rotom-A, Togekiss (I've actually seen a few), Gengar, Infernape, Magnezone, Specs Jolteon, and Band Scizor. These pokemon commonly run Choice items as their main set (besides Togekiss & Manaphy, but are very good Scarfers). They're all quite popular in the suspect metagame, and frankly, if Blissey is run along with one of these pokemon, Latias is going to be putting itself in quite a bit of danger if it tries to Trick. Blissey + Choicer is quite a good combination for taking down Latias, because if Latias makes even one wrong move it'll either be crippled, severely injured, or dead.

Another set I've been seeing to check/counter Latias is Specially Defensive Skarmory (though I really really hate this pokemon). This thing is quite evil, because it can actually use Latias as setup bait to lay down Spikes. It may be hard for Latias to come back in after because Skarmory will be busy Whirlwinding the hell out of the opponent's team, and Roosting off the damage. Seriously, if you're underestimating this thing because it has lower raw base stats for Specially Defending, you're in for some trouble, because it more than compensates for it with its resistances, and essentially have no big 'physical weaknesses' despite no EV investment in Defense. A Specs Surf from Latias actually only does 37.1% - 44%, which isn't hard for Latias to Roost off. The only thing Skarmory needs to watch out for is Thunderbolt or HP Fire, which I've been seeing very little of.

 

[Plus]

Manaphy and Latias go pretty well together, and while these forces may have hard counters so to speak, I think they are way too centralizing to be considered OU. Specs Latias is overwhelmingly powerful, and Manaphy's Tail Glow variants are annoying to deal with due to its bulk and speed. While OU is still pretty centralized in the favor of steels and dragons, I think the addition of Manaphy has made this arguably even worse. There's been an influx of Metagross , Jirachi, and Tyranitar to counteract Latias, while Latias is used to counteract Manaphy, and the cycle continues.

It's been really easy to set up Tail Glows with Manaphy imo, and sweeping isn't terribly hard either. Manaphy is really threatening to opposing teams, and it lures out a bunch of pokemon to make killing easier. It isn't an instant threat like Latias, but it's much more menacing once it gets a Tail Glow up as opposed to Specs Latias. When Manaphy isn't sweeping, it gives me easy kills with a trapper like Tyranitar that eliminates Manaphy's so called "counters". While Manaphy does change the metagame, it really changes it for the worse, lol.

As for Latias, Specs is definitely the best set out of the bunch, and while there has been a terribly high amount of Scarf Tyranitar, it isn't totally reliable as Surf can kill off semi-weakened ones, and Latias can play the prediction game on its Pursuit. Also, should it Pursuit, that leaves a big hole in your opponent's team to set up with say, a DDMence.

With the things people use to deal with these two, I find that it makes it easy to open holes in the opponents team to sweep, if they should not sweep themselves. Stick the two somewhere, find a trapper or counter, and get something that cleans up afterwards.

 

[shrang]

Mono-CM Manaphy is definitely overrated in my opinion. Yes, it can set up on Blissey, but no reasonable player is going to keep Blissey in on a Cro-Phy, unless that is their last Pokemon. Basically, when a player sees either Rain Dance or Calm Mind, they will think the most likely form of Manaphy they are seeing is Cro-Phy (Or maybe my RD+TG Manaphy), and switch out Blissey because they know they are going to get set-up on. So, under these circumstances, the most Manaphy is going to do is probably set up 2 Calm Minds. That is 474 Special Attack (Assuming 252 HP/252 Def/4 SpA, Bold). While this stat might seem impressive, you have to remember Manaphy only has one attack, and not an extremely strong one (And after 2 Calm Minds, which is quite meh). This attack is also resisted by quite a long list of threats, Latias, Manaphy, Salamence, Vaporeon, Kingdra, Celebi, and many more. This Manaphy then risks getting set-up on (Salamence, Kingdra, Latias), getting phazed (Vaporeon), Tricked (Latias) or Perish Song'd (Celebi). Hell, even my Specially Defensive Heatran can take a +2 Surf from a Cro-Phy and Roar it out. Other less commonly seen Pokemon and movesets can also cause this thing headaches. Shaymin can Seed Flare it (Even at +2, it's going be doing quite a decent amount of health, and if it gets a SpD drop, Cro-Phy is OHKO'd next turn), Ludicolo can Sub Seed it all day, Heart Swap Manaphy (Don't laugh, I've seen quite a few and they work very nicely) can let you CM up +6 (He doesn't care), outspeed you and then steal all those boosts and sweep your team. Did I mention Taunt as well?? Cro-Phy is a try hard version of Crocune (Which I honestly think is better). Crocune might be vulnerable when its sleeping, but it has better defenses and is more likely to survive 2 turns of sleep than say a Cro-Phy that Rested on Tyranitar coming in. Crocune can resort to PP stalling to beat Vaporeon, while Cro-Phy is completely walled.

 

[haunter]

Yes, Cro-Phy is probably the weakest of all the sets Manaphy can run. It's set up fodder for a lot of Pkm (Gyarados, Kingdra, Latias, Salamence among others) and to be honest I believe that Suicune can use that set better, if only, like the above poster said, for pressure which allows it to win many pp wars with things like Vaporeon; not to mention that Suicune has slightly better overall defences.

As for trick-Latias, I think that Bologo hit the nail on the head. Trick is an extremely risky move to use: if you "predict" wrong and instead of Blissey your opponent brings in Scizor or TTar (both scarf and band variants) then you have a dead Latias as they just need to select pursuit without even risking to be hit by hp fire\surf-grass knot respectively.

And I disagree with people who blame Latias for the rise in usage of scarf-Tar. It's just an awesome Pokemon in general, to pack in both offensive and defensive teams, as it checks a plethora of threats. Scarf-Rotom is almost as annoying as Latias is and scarf Tar takes care of it without even fearing trick. LO Starmie is another Pokemon which is extremely hard to deal with if you lack Blissey, and scarf Tar can easily beat it 1 vs 1, unless you switch into hydro pump. Being able to revenge kill things like SD Lucario and Infernape (though lately both bullet punch and mach punch are becoming more and more common) is just something more that lead people to use scarf Tar on their teams.

 

[capefeather]

Or Latias has to use Draco Meteor as Tyranitar switches in, win the 50/50 prediction contest, and the use Draco Meteor again, and the chances of two consecutive Draco Meteors hitting is just 66%.

Actually, Draco Meteor has 90% accuracy, so it's actually 81%.

On another note, I think that some people are concentrating too much on the "common" counters and seeing how the suspects do against them, not just in this suspect test but also in other suspect tests for OU and UU (and I suspect LC, etc. as well). However, not everyone runs or even needs these counters. You don't need to use "hard counters" like ScarfTar-bait Electrics to beat Manaphy. You don't need "hard counters" like Trick-bait Blissey to beat Latias.

 

[frogbandit]

One of the main overlooked pokemon imo is Wish Support Jirachi. It stops the three most common pokemon on every team, Manaphy, Latias, and Scarf Tyranitar, right in its tracks with Thunder Wave. It isn't OHKOed by any move either of the three carries. Specs Latias's Thunderbolt, Surf, and Draco Meteor do a flimsy 30-35%, while Jirachi can retaliate back with Thunder Wave, U-turn, Iron Head. Scarf Tyranitar's Earthquake can barely do a 2HKO, while Jirachi can fire off a Thunder Wave and Iron Head for the kill. And a non-boosted Manaphy does 32% on average; +2 Special Attack can't OHKO, meaning Manaphy can Thunder Wave first turn and flinch hax it to death. When faced with a Pokemon that resists Iron Head, say Agiligross, it can quite easily Thunder Wave and Flinch Hax it to death. The only way to beat it with the above said 3 pokemon (Latias, Manaphy, Tyranitar), is to get +2 Special Attack with Manaphy and hit it on the switch in, or Earthquake it on the switch in. Still, imo its a large threat.

Another option is to use Stealth Rock in place of U-turn, but I prefer U-turn because I already have a reliable Stealth Rock lead and U-turn for scouting purposes.

As for Specs Latias, I don't like running Trick for reasons Haunter said; its extremely risky, especially knowing that almost every team has ScarfTar and Scizor as their main counters nowadays; Blissey is not as common on the ladder (in my experience). I like running both Dragon Pulse and Thunderbolt on the same set, along with Surf and Draco Meteor. However, whenever I predict a switch, I almost always Draco Meteor instead of Dragon Pulse, and it pays off. It dents everything switching in harder than Dragon Pulse would, and ScarfTar and Scizor will be hurting more.

IMO the most deadly Manaphy set to run is still the original Tail Glow sweeper, except Wacan Berry is pretty much useless now that the surprise factor is gone and Specs Latias almost always Draco Meteors. I think the preferred item is Leftovers, to cancel out Sandstorm, which can really wear down over time. Manaphy at decent health (over 70%) and Tail Glow up can be hard to take down, and often gets at least a few kills every match. However, Manaphy does have its checks, most notably Specs Latias and Blissey. As with most sweepers, speed is definitely a problem; faster attackers carrying Thunderbolt (Starmie, ScarfRotom)or any strong attack that isn't resisted (Draco Meteor) will take it out. I haven't tried Scarfed Manaphy, but on most teams utilizing Scarfed Tyranitar, it seems kind of redundant.

Of course, its too early to make assumptions, but overall my thoughts on the suspects:
Manaphy - strong, but not overpowering
Latias - specs set is definitely most dangerous, probably enough to go Uber

 

[NightmareZ]

Yes jirachi is becoming a pain on suspect but that is how the metagame is. Ayway, I find that latias isn't hard to use although most teams seem to be built around countering the suspects but don't actually feature them. I still don't know how manaphy can grab a sweep with it's tail glow set as it's just outsped by so many pokemon, and OHKO'd by many of them.

At the moment I think:

Latias: uber
Manaphy: OU

Reasons:
Latias most threatening sets at the moment are the LO three attacks set and specs set. With the specs set the most broken and the LO set almost broken. Crophy is just an inferior suicune, tail glow set needs someone with the skill of phil to work well, calm mind set is the best IMO however I'm still experimenting with EV's and natures currently. IMO unless we suddenly unlock the key to owning with manaphy or phil cares to give everyone his team manaphy is ending up in OU. Remember this is all my opinion.

 

[shrang]

I love how SD Scizor can absolutely crush teams in this metagame. In the late-game when Rotom, Zapdos, Heatran or Gyarados is gone, bring him after Latias has killed something with Draco Meteor, SD up and sweep. Unlike SD Luke, however, SD Scizor does not have garbage defenses and can actually survive a few attacks and continue sweeping. I also love how people switch in non-Scarfed Magnezone thinking I'm CB'd and get OHKO'd by a +2 Brick Break.

Also, I have not seen ONE Vaporeon this entire time I've been playing. That's kind of sad, because he's not a bad Manaphy check (Although +2 HP Electric or Energy Ball will hurt).

 

[Rising_Dusk]

tail glow set needs someone with the skill of phil to work well

Not really! Getting Tail Glow boosts is really easy if you do two things:

• Keep Manaphy in decent health.
• Scout your enemy's team for its counters and the setup fodder necessary to get the +2 boosts

If you do that, then you're going to get numerous opportunities to boost up. Assuming you can manage one boost towards the late game, your Manaphy is going to sweep the remainder of the enemy team pretty well. Most Manaphy checks are whittled away very easily over time.

 

[haunter]

The same argument applies to Lucario, Gyarados and many other sweepers in the game, not only to Manaphy. A skilled player with a good team will usually manage to set up his\her sweeper(s) mid to late game.

On a side note, I'm finding that Raikou (especially the defensive CM set) is an excellent Pokemon in this suspect metagame. Even spcs-Latias will lose 1 vs 1 if she comes in on a CM, and Raikou can even survive a +2 surf from Manaphy. Being resistant to bullet punch is useful as well.

 

[Rising_Dusk]

The same argument applies to Lucario, Gyarados and many other sweepers in the game, not only to Manaphy. A skilled player with a good team will usually manage to set up his\her sweeper(s) mid to late game.

Exactly. Case in point, it's really not tough to get the +2 boosts. Fortunately for Manaphy, though, SR isn't ripping out 25%'s. She's definitely up there with SDLuke, just with 100/100/100 defenses to help her on her way.

On a side note, I'm finding that Raikou (especially the defensive CM set) is an excellent Pokemon in this suspect metagame.

Yeah, I've fought quite a few that ended up being huge pests to my team. ScarfTar OHKOes it if SR is up, though, and is faster by 3 speed.

 

[twash]

On a side note, I'm finding that Raikou (especially the defensive CM set) is an excellent Pokemon in this suspect metagame. Even spcs-Latias will lose 1 vs 1 if she comes in on a CM, and Raikou can even survive a +2 surf from Manaphy. Being resistant to bullet punch is useful as well.

Myself and a couple of other people have been having success with Modest Scarf Raikou...it's a great revenge killer anyway (Gyarados, Salamence, weakened sweepers such as Infernape all hate it), so it's a pretty great check to tons of Pokemon. Shadow Ball finishes up weakened Latias (and sometimes Gengar, although Thunderbolt is mostly better), while Toxic can hit the omnipresent Swampert switch-in. It's hard to explain "just" how important 329 Speed is in a sentence or two, but I'm sure most people know why.

 

[Megan_Fox]

Myself and a couple of other people have been having success with Modest Scarf Raikou...it's a great revenge killer anyway (Gyarados, Salamence, weakened sweepers such as Infernape all hate it), so it's a pretty great check to tons of Pokemon. Shadow Ball finishes up weakened Latias (and sometimes Gengar, although Thunderbolt is mostly better), while Toxic can hit the omnipresent Swampert switch-in. It's hard to explain "just" how important 329 Speed is in a sentence or two, but I'm sure most people know why.

Modest Scarf-Raikou seems like a great idea because most of the known good scarfers that dont have to rely on speed ties to beat DDmence are pursuit bait (Latias, Starmie, Gengar). A scarfed raikou could revenge kill a DDmence (a threat that i have seen in suspect so far) without fear of being pursuited (or not AS much of a fear atleast). I might even try it in ou, i hate relying on speed ties from flygon and jirachi in order to revenge mence.

 

[broodjekebab]

In that case, modest scarfed Jolteon as also viable. It offers a little less base Sp.A., but in return it can allocate more EVs to its HP/defenses but the most important benefit over Raikou is baton pass (dry passing, just for scouting purposes).

 

[Rising_Dusk]

Jolteon's defense really isn't that solid, especially to things coming in on a move to Pursuit it as it flees. Scarfed Raikou manages the necessary threats and has a much higher durability than our little yellow friend. Jolteon still has that handy electric immunity, though, giving it an opportunity to score some free healing. On the flip side, Raikou hits harder.

 

[frogbandit]

Also, I have not seen ONE Vaporeon this entire time I've been playing. That's kind of sad, because he's not a bad Manaphy check (Although +2 HP Electric or Energy Ball will hurt).

Thats because Blissey makes a better overall check to Manaphy and Latias. Blissey can easily take Specs Latias' Thunderbolt, while Vaporeon cannot. Same with Manaphy's HP Electric or Energy Ball. Other than a few lead Infernape, I haven't seen any other Infernape; they are too easily killed by ScarfTar and SpecsLatias in this metagame. So there isn't a whole lot going for Vaporeon. Blissey can WishPass just as well as Vappy can.

Also, I'm curious as to what leads everyone has been using. The best I feel would be faster leads that can set up Stealth Rock or Spikes, like Aerodactyl, Gliscor, and Skarmory. Azelf hasn't been working out because it is way too easily revenge killed by ScarfTar packing Pursuit. I've also seen teams with Roserade and Swampert, which are expected because they are good Manaphy checks and can set up entry hazards. One of the best ones I've seen utilized is a Choice Scarf Starmie lead packing Trick. It can defeat suicide leads and leads trying to set up Stealth Rock, and if it doesn't trick its scarf away it can serve as a great revenge killer in the later game to both Manaphy, Latias, and Tyranitar, with Thunderbolt, Ice Beam, and Surf/Hydro Pump respectively. Another option could be Rapid Spin, in the place of one of the three attacks, but I don't know which one would be the best to give up: Tbolt, Surf/Hydro Pump, or Ice Beam. What do you guys think?

 

[Bologo]

Exactly. Case in point, it's really not tough to get the +2 boosts. Fortunately for Manaphy, though, SR isn't ripping out 25%'s. She's definitely up there with SDLuke, just with 100/100/100 defenses to help her on her way.

I honestly don't agree with this. Manaphy definitely not up there with SD Luke as far as threats go IMO. While she has solid 100/100/100 defenses, they really don't seem that solid when there's no investment in them, especially if there's Life Orb used and Sandstorm up (which seems easy to assume with Manaphy, since she's commonly partnered with TTar). Also, she has a much harder time switching in than SD Luke, because she doesn't have Lucario's sheer amount of resistances to switch in on, 3 of which are 4x resists and one which is an immunity. In addition, once she gets the boosts, if there's still a pokemon faster than her on the opposing team (or if sturdy special walls such are Blissey are still alive), she has a lot of trouble keeping the sweep going due to death, or in Blissey's case, status. Lucario has no such problem with faster pokemon due to his Extremespeed and Bullet Punch taking out a lot of faster sweepers, making him much, much harder to revenge kill. Also, a lot of pokemon (not weak to Water obviously) can still survive Manaphy's STAB, even after +2 and LO (mostly walls if it does have a LO), and because it doesn't have a priority move, it may not get a chance to use the other coverage move if that pokemon is faster than it. Without LO, even more things can survive. This isn't really the case with Lucario, as even dedicated physical walls can be OHKOed by Close Combat after a Swords Dance and LO, and the ones that aren't are killed by Crunch or Ice Punch. Finally, because Lucario is immune to Toxic Spikes, and 4x resistant to Stealth Rock, and immune to Sandstorm, he can keep his sweep going much longer, as he's not being worn down as much when he comes in, and isn't losing more than 10% each turn with his attacks.

 

[Mr.E]

Also, I have a few comments about what you said about Manaphy. You say that "the Tail Glow set is still very powerful and really sweeps through teams when played in the right hands", but that's just it. It sweeps through teams "when played in the right hands". Not everyone who plays suspect is an absolute guru at playing pokemon, and this is something I've been thinking about for a while. While they may not be horrible, if the average player is genuinely having trouble sweeping with the Tail Glow set, even with a good team, then as far as I'm concerned, it's not uber.

Whether something is or is not overpowered is only relevant at the highest level of play. If you're not assuming the highest level of play when discussing something, then the solution to the problem is "get better" before anything else is even relevant. Figure out the problem. "What can I do to beat this?" If that question has no answer, then it might be broken. If that question has an answer you simply don't know because you're a weak player, then get better and try to figure it out before condemning it. Of course, it works in reverse as well. Better players can potentially untap the abusing potential in a pokémon that weaker players may not realize.

[soapbox] This is not only a problem with your line of thinking but the entire (OU) Suspect process: "How much did you play?" is the only current criteria for Suspect voting but too many people who lack the skill to actually be qualified to decide the fate of the metagame are deciding the fate of the metagame.[/soapbox]

I was gonna comment on more stuff but I decided it doesn't matter too much now since the topic of conversation has been moving.

 

[ultimifier]

I have not been impressed with manaphy at all. I tried making a team with it but every time I always ended not liking the look of the team.

Latias on the other hand can just be placed onto any team and wreck everything with specs. Its kind of annoying how every team on suspect is FORCED to run a pursuiter to deal with latias

 

[shrang]

Specs Latias, although powerful, can be taken advantage of nicely with any good Steel-typed sweeper. Let Latias kill something with Draco Meteor and be at -2. Now bring in your Steel sweeper (Agiligross, SD Scizor, SD Lucario, RP Aggron, Empoleon, or hell even DD Tyranitar) and set-up on a weakened DM. If I look at my team and see that little to nothing can stand in the way of a Scizor sweep for example, I would gladly sacrifice something (Like Manaphy) to bring in my Scizor, go for an SD and sweep. Although Specs Latias is very powerful, it doesn't have the power that big brother Latios had (Where even Steels were massively damaged). A player can't do what they did with Latios and go "I'm going to click Draco Meteor now and see something die" with Latias. Mindlessly spamming Draco Meteor can easily cost you the game.

 

[Rising_Dusk]

Bologo, I'm going to try to split up your wall of text into manageable chunks to respond to in turn.

I honestly don't agree with this. Manaphy definitely not up there with SD Luke as far as threats go IMO. While she has solid 100/100/100 defenses, they really don't seem that solid when there's no investment in them, especially if there's Life Orb used and Sandstorm up (which seems easy to assume with Manaphy, since she's commonly partnered with TTar).

Still, uninvested 100/100/100 with weaknesses only to grass and electric (both very easily handled by the rest of your team) is better than uninvested 70/70/70 defenses with weaknesses to ground, fire, and fighting.

Also, she has a much harder time switching in than SD Luke, because she doesn't have Lucario's sheer amount of resistances to switch in on, 3 of which are 4x resists and one which is an immunity.

I'll give you that, it is indeed one of Lucario's best qualities. Still, though, especially when partnered with Tyranitar and other water-weak Pokemon, getting in is not so difficult in the metagame as you might think.

In addition, once she gets the boosts, if there's still a pokemon faster than her on the opposing team (or if sturdy special walls such are Blissey are still alive), she has a lot of trouble keeping the sweep going due to death, or in Blissey's case, status. Lucario has no such problem with faster pokemon due to his Extremespeed and Bullet Punch taking out a lot of faster sweepers, making him much, much harder to revenge kill.

Status is iffy, because a team can always provide RD support if need be, rendering her immune. If we assume that a team doesn't provide such support, though, I agree. Still, though, her raw speed stat is higher than Lucario's, allowing her to outspeed more than he can despite missing out on priority. (ES and to a lesser extent BP access is another of Lucario's best qualities)

Also, a lot of pokemon (not weak to Water obviously) can still survive Manaphy's STAB, even after +2 and LO (mostly walls if it does have a LO), and because it doesn't have a priority move, it may not get a chance to use the other coverage move if that pokemon is faster than it. Without LO, even more things can survive. This isn't really the case with Lucario, as even dedicated physical walls can be OHKOed by Close Combat after a Swords Dance and LO, and the ones that aren't are killed by Crunch or Ice Punch. Finally, because Lucario is immune to Toxic Spikes, and 4x resistant to Stealth Rock, and immune to Sandstorm, he can keep his sweep going much longer, as he's not being worn down as much when he comes in, and isn't losing more than 10% each turn with his attacks.

All good points, indeed. Still, theorymon only goes so far. From what I have experienced both in Manaphy being used against me and in my personal use of Manaphy is that she poses just as much of a threat when set up as Lucario.

Lucario also is generally only ever given one shot at its sweep. If the enemy has a counter and it comes in on the SD, then he will typically be spent and forced to resort to just assorted hit and runs for the rest of the match. Manaphy can come in numerous times on weaker STAB attacks with her defenses (even uninvested), get a Tail Glow boost, and threaten the enemy team immediately. Her resistances may not be wide-spread, but they cover a wide enough spectrum to give her ample setup opportunities. (Key resistances to Fire, Water, Ice, Steel) Furthermore, many of her most common checks and counters are all easily dispensable with a single Pokemon, ScarfTar.

They're good for different reasons. I just think whereas Lucario has enough dedicated counters that are widespread enough without centralizing the metagame, Manaphy does not.

My two cents, for what they're worth.

 

[Quaily]

One thing that is kind of getting overshadowed by specs latias is latias herself. It's not specs latias that fits in any type of team, it's latias that fits into any team. About the only thing she can't do is the DD/mixed sweeper that latios can do. Life orb offensive latias has more versitility than specs, she can wall special attacks with the best, set up screens, be a scarf revenge killer, or run a cm sweeper. Manaphy has a lot fewer options, just TG sweeping and rain support really. Though it does those very well.

 

[lordkira]

Specs Latias, although powerful, can be taken advantage of nicely with any good Steel-typed sweeper. Let Latias kill something with Draco Meteor and be at -2. Now bring in your Steel sweeper (Agiligross, SD Scizor, SD Lucario, RP Aggron, Empoleon, or hell even DD Tyranitar) and set-up on a weakened DM. If I look at my team and see that little to nothing can stand in the way of a Scizor sweep for example, I would gladly sacrifice something (Like Manaphy) to bring in my Scizor, go for an SD and sweep. Although Specs Latias is very powerful, it doesn't have the power that big brother Latios had (Where even Steels were massively damaged). A player can't do what they did with Latios and go "I'm going to click Draco Meteor now and see something die" with Latias. Mindlessly spamming Draco Meteor can easily cost you the game.

I am iffy on the fact that one should sacrifice a pokemon to kill it with a steel type (preferably things such as Scizor since it can pursuit). However, unless the steel type has pursuit it could simply switch out as it had the -2 spA, which would be problematic to you once more.

Let Latias kill something with Draco Meteor and be at -2 :::::::::::::::::: FOR BOGOLO

 

[Bologo]

I am iffy on the fact that one should sacrifice a pokemon to kill it with a steel type (preferably things such as Scizor since it can pursuit). However, unless the steel type has pursuit it could simply switch out as it had the -2 spA, which would be problematic to you once more.

Uhh, he never said he would sacrifice a pokemon to kill Latias. He said he would sacrifice a pokemon to let a Steel-type sweeper set up. Ie. sacrificing a pokemon so that Scizor can come in and Swords Dance. Ie. sacrificing a pokemon so that Empoleon can come in and set up Agility, etc, etc. With that, it doesn't even matter if Latias switches out or not, because each of the pokemon he mentioned can kill Latias if she comes in again since they'll be fully set up.

 

[Staraptor Call]

Let us compare Manaphy to one sweeper that is powerful but certainly not too good for OU: Empoleon. By comparing Wacan Manaphy and Agility SubPetaya Empoleon, we will be able to see how good Manaphy is as a sweeper relative to a similar Pokemon that is surely OU.

Special Attack:
Empoleon: 353 before boosts. With boosts achievable after one turn of setup, gets 225% SpA for Water attacks and 150% SpA for all other types.
Manaphy: 299 before boosts. With boosts achievable after one turn of setup, gets 200% SpA.

Empoleon is the clear winner here. Empoleon's Special Attack is 118.1% of Manaphy's. Empoleon can, in effect, get +2 in one turn because it can Agility on the switch-in, and then outspeed and sub down to Petaya activation, so after a switch, Empoleon can get to +2 almost as easily as Manaphy can. Winner: Empoleon.

Speed:
Empoleon: 214, doubled to 428 after fully set up.
Manaphy: 328.

While initially, Manaphy seems to be the clear winner in the Speed department, Empoleon actually has the edge. If After one turn of setup, which is the usual condition for someone trying to counter or check these sweepers, Empoleon has 100 more points in Speed than Manaphy. Winner: Empoleon.

Defenses:
Empoleon: 312 HP, 215 Def, 238 SpD
Manaphy: 342 HP, 236 Def, 236 SpD

Manaphy wins this one due to its higher base HP and much higher base Defense. Winner: Manaphy.

Weaknesses and Resistances:
Empoleon:
Resists:Poison (immunity), Steel (4x), Ice (4x), Water, Bug, Ghost, Dark, Dragon, Flying, Normal, Psychic, Rock.
Is Weak to: Fighting, Ground, Electric.
Manaphy:
Resists: Fire, Ice, Water, Steel.
Is Weak to: Electric, Grass.

Empoleon clearly wins this round. With twelve resistances, more than any Pokemon other than Shedinja, Empoleon gets many opprotunities to switch in and set up. Importantly, Empoleon resists Stealth Rock, is immune to Toxic Spikes, can switch into Dragons, locked into Dragon moves, and avoids being KOed by Scizor's Bullet Punch even after taking SR damage and making three Subs. Manaphy, in comparison, has only four resistances, giving it fewer opprotunities to set up on NVE moves. Although Empoleon has one more weakness than Manaphy, Empoleon's three weaknesses are dwarfed by its twelve resistances. Winner: Empoleon.

Type Coverage:
Empoleon: Water, Ice/Grass
Manaphy: Water, Ice, Grass/Electric.

One of Manaphy's greatest assets, and Empoleon's greatest downfalls, is type coverage. While Empoleon gets imperfect coverage by using either Water-Ice or Water-Grass as its attacking types, Manaphy can get perfect neutral coverage with Water, Ice, and either Grass or Electric. Winner: Manaphy.

In conclusion, Manaphy is not overwhelmingly better than its solidly OU counterpart, Empoleon. As a pure sweeper, Empoleon is better in everything but type coverage and defenses, and defenses are not of huge value to sweepers. And although Manaphy has more variety in its movesets than the extremely predictable Empoleon, it still mainly uses only one set for sweeping. As a sweeper, Manaphy is not so overwhelmingly better than every OU Pokemon as to deserve Uber status.