Metagame NP: Stage 12 - Bitter Sweet Symphony (Cloyster + Lucario Banned)

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etern

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NU Leader

The major tier shift has finally dropped, and NU has been turned on its head! We've lost some of the cornerstones of our tier but been given some very cool offensive and defensive pieces that will certainly lead to an entirely new and refreshed metagame. Which new additions do you think will make the biggest splash? Who will rise to the top? Will we see the return of familiar faces? Let us know below!

Rises:
:krookodile: Krookodile moved from NU to RU :krookodile:
:magnezone: Magnezone moved from NU to RU :magnezone:
:noivern: Noivern moved from NU to RU :noivern:
:reuniclus: Reuniclus moved from NU to RU :reuniclus:
:slowbro: Slowbro moved from NU to RU :slowbro:
:thundurus: Thundurus moved from NU to RU :thundurus:
:rhyperior: Rhyperior moved from NU to UU :rhyperior:

Drops:
:araquanid: Araquanid moved from RU to NU :araquanid:
:breloom: Breloom moved from RU to NU :breloom:
:cinccino: Cinccino moved from RU to NU :cinccino:
:cresselia: Cresselia moved from RU to NU :cresselia:
:deoxys-defense: Deoxys-Defense moved from RU to NU :deoxys-defense:
:Indeedee: Indeedee moved from UU to NU :indeedee:
 
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new month new nu
IMG_4217.png with the loss of slowbro the tier lost its best way to deal with physical threats. slowbro has been one of the few things keeping a lot of set up mons and powerful breakers in check. all ofIMG_4219.pngIMG_4220.pngIMG_4221.pngmay become overbearing in this new meta so we are going to have to keep our eyes out on these fellows.
IMG_4218.pngthis is the only new drop I see as being too much as of now it’s calm mind sets are extremely difficult to stop and it has decent utility sets too ig. grassy terrain makes this thing even more unbearable but even not on grassy terrain it is hard to force out or stop when it gets a turn or two.
IMG_4226.pngglad to have him back as he’s an amazing enabler to all of the psychic terrain mons in the tier and has expanding force to be an actual threat unlike the female indeedee. cool mon!
IMG_4222.pngtrades galvantulas speed for better match ups against most of the removal and a lot more immediate power with water bubble attacks. cool mon and webs ho will appreciate this guy. (also better rain match up)
IMG_4225.pnganother cool mon with amazing utility sets and calm mind stored power or cosmic power stored power will probably be good. might be overbearing later but for now is good.
IMG_4223.pngthis is fraudulent. band or sub might be ok and he hits like a truck but it just looks mid tbh.
IMG_4224.pngho mon. definitely manageable.
slowbro galar resurgence hopefully during this meta but for now gotta let it develop.
 
As the slowbro era has ended, time to look at new drops (Cressellia is a bit lengthy, I'll try keep concise with the other mons)

:cresselia: As we have lost slowbro, cresselia has joined us in our time of need for another painfully bulky mon, which I think will be too much for the tier to handle for now. Not having much experience with this, it looks like tera dark haze vaporeon :vaporeon: or a choice item trick are the most reliable ways to check it. A set of Calm mind/ Stored Power/ Moonblast/moonlight is only countered consistently by its fellow drop: Deoxys defense :Deoxys-defense:
https://pokepast.es/d2e9247894733d63
(This a quick team I made to try the standard cresselia set, my verdict is: ban stored power lmao)

:Araquanid: Araquanid is probably second best at laying webs since It loses the lead matchup vs galvantula :Galvantula:. On the other hand, it offers a better matchup into rain and can serve as a check to some threats with a powerful liquidation aswell as webs, for some versatility

:Indeedee: Indeedee's role as a psychic terrain setter will bring an interesting team archetype to the tier, with both scarf expanding force and support lead sets being consistent across most tiers. Although psychic terrain doesn't seem like it'll be too strong, with teammates like :hitmonlee: and shell smash abusers like :cloyster: Indeedee could be a cool mon unless UU takes it away again :(

:Cinccino: Cinccino could be useful as a way for HO to remove hazards and webs that hurt it, but this mon doesn't look like it will have a huge impact. A tidy up/tail slap/triple axel/filler set could be viable but pretty meh mon (Someone try tera blast fire as filler, I beg you)

:Breloom: Breloom having some variety is good for it, with sub+poison heal, banded and sub+focus punch all existing. I doubt it can fit in too well but that attack stat is huge ofc. (It can't beat cresselia smh).

:Deoxys-defense: Deoxys is the check to cresselia we needed- it beats cress cm with its own cm sets (Cm/stored power/recover/something else). It can also be a bulky wall or pivot with utility like Teleport, thunder wave, knock off, recover, etc.

I guess we see what happens as we let the meta develop! (Spoiler: cresselia ban)
 
I’ve been playing with :cresselia: and let me just say it's unsurprisingly not that balanced. Calm Mind sets destroy everything just as they always have. Only issue for it is phazing :copperajah:, which can be worked around by sacking your team late-game if needed. (It sounds dramatic, but it works.) And, :deoxys-defense: I guess, but Calm Mind/Cosmic Power Deo-D lacks the coverage it wants and can't take advantage of Terastallization as well as :cresselia: can.

:deoxys-defense: still has some hope yet, tho, as I believe on bulkier teams (fat/stall) a Recover/CM or Cosmic P/P Noise/Entry Hazards can be used. Stall loves another Spikes/Stealth Rock user for sure, so we don't need to deal with Quagsire + underwhelming mon! (I've seen people speak over Teleport over the setup slot on Deo-D for more balance-y teams, but that's theorymon atm.)

:indeedee: idt this will be too fun for the tier. However, lack of Mystical Fire will help for sure, meaning Steel-types actually works versus it. Encore is a strong move at its disposal too, letting it beat balance and bulkier teams fairly easily. Choiced and CM Spoon sets will be fun to play with on a variety of teams.

i refuse to give my thoughts on the rat, and don’t care enough to think too much about :breloom: or :araquanid: currently. The former (Breloom not the rodent) however definitely has potential, but I still believe Toxicroak will work as a better fat Water-beating Fighting-type (you might say ‘immunity, duh!’, I mean, yeah, obviously, but also Fighting-resistance and Fairy neutrality + 68%-ish to incoming Talonflame with one of your STABs [Gunk Shot] is ridiculously better than what Breloom can offer in that role.They both have their places, though.)

edit: i forgot to plug the thread: Cress is “balanced” :)
 
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My thoughts:

I know
1719888217811.png
leaving is supposed to be devastating for the tier, especially with 3 psychic types dropping, but man this thing has plagued me on ladder for so long that I'm glad that I don't have to play the the Knock Off vs Earthquake guessing game. Skill Issue on my part.
1719888217811.png
alongside
1719888234595.png
leaving the tier means that
1719888398036.png
gets even better now that it's main ground type competition is gone.

1719888462948.png
,
1719888217811.png
, and
1719888500929.png
leaving both means that newcomers
1719888531727.png
,
1719888548802.png
, and
1719888558182.png
are all much scarier as drops as now Expanding Force and Stored Power are more spammable. Been seeing
1719888609098.png
,
1719888620190.png
, and
1719888641066.png
a lot more because of this. Also,
1719888661844.png
stocks go way up now that it's main competition as well as its main counter are gone.

1719888724207.png
will be missed dearly. Our best electric, our best steel, our best volt switcher, and our best assault vest user all in 1 now stolen from us by RU. Well that means that
1719888778084.png
can breathe a little easier.
1719888778084.png
has to worry less about needing Tera Blast to cover steels since the only ones we see these days are the hazard setters
1719888867108.png
1719888893383.png
as well as
1719888848921.png
who can i guess id press sweep on top of that.

On that note,
1719888778084.png
is I guess another hazard remover which is nice to have, one more back up option for when RU inevitably steals
1719889013897.png
from us in October. Other than that,
1719888778084.png
is also quite hard to answer at times since it has Rock Blast to destroy the aforementioned
1719889013897.png
on the switch if you get your plays right.

1719889138618.png
is also damn scary with Choice Band or Loaded Dice. Mach Punch makes our Mushroomy Mate excellent at revenge killing the Tera Steel setup mons we have running around and landing Rock Tomb on the
1719889013897.png
switch is the greatest feeling ever. Bullet Seed also means this guy shreds the bulky waters that have risen up to take
1719888462948.png
's place.
 
Just wanted to drop my Day 1 thoughts!

:Cresselia:Cresselia
Cress is stupidly bulky and hard to stop from boosting through your team. Hitting a toxic when they can tera out of it, or getting the trick turn right isn't really enough imo. There are some things that can hit it hard like chandy, and incin can boost in front of it, but it feels like not many things can power through this (and DeoD) pre and post tera. Maybe there is more counterplay to develop on this but it definitely feels broken so far so we will see how it plays out. Initial power isn't there of course, but there is so much it just absolutely walls.

:Deoxys-Defense:Deoxys-Defense
DeoD feels very similar to cress so I won't elaborate too much more here, but it does have even more speed and some different options. I ran cosmic power | stored power | recover | taunt alongside a trick ring target chandelure (since it lures the dark types in) and it felt very silly. Replay (tricked incin on turn 12 and DeoD pressure stalled a scream tail out of encores later on)

:Cinccino:Cinccino
Cincinno feels fine here so far, I enjoy using it on certain offense builds but I don't think it's gonna break the meta or anything. Makes you want a steel and/or rocky helmet and/or prio, but those don't feel hard to fit right now.

:Breloom:Breloom
Breloom is definitely a mon to keep an eye on. It's really strong, but it's not that fast, and it doesn't have access to spore anymore of course. I've mostly tried sd on HO at this point and while it did some things, I don't think ive gotten to click SD yet. Band is probably the best set? I've seen toxic orb poison heal do work as well.

:Araquanid:Araquanid
This is a side grade for sticky webs teams. I think the movepool holds this thing back a fair amount. While the ability is crazy and the water moves hurt, I can see water immunities (especially vape) rising up even more so I don't think there is too much for the offensive sets. You can sub on scald but you can't really break them back.

:Indeedee:Indeedee-M
It is cool to have the good Indeedee back and psy terrain may actually be decent again? Early to say but like sash cloyster in psy terrain is pretty good, even if the unburdens are just ok. Psy spam has has a lot to break through on balance right now with the new bulky psychics and dark types rising up to try and handle said bulky psychics. It does feel like it beats the opposing HO matchup fairly well though.

Honestly overall I think we took an L with this shift losing so many staples (rip my man zone) and getting... Cress and DeoD but we will adapt! Honestly thought this shift would push NU even more offensive but that doesn't seem to be the case at the moment. Good song choice though!
 
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:cresselia: is here, but probably not for long…

So huge shifts but this is the main one (and a problematic one).
Losing Rhyp and Magnezone may not seem like a problem regarding this whole Cress scenario but it actually is since the departure of both allows even more special breakers to have fun (ex: PoryZ, Chande, Sylv) which subsequently allow cress to clean way easier.

Both relevant dark types to cress (muk-a, incineroar) are bound to switch to porygon, chande and sylv once in battle unless they pair it up with a steel… well in that case there’s one thing called tera, allowing any of the aforementioned mons to just tera ground and nuke that core.

That whole idea may seem problematic for cress wanting to tera poison to avoid toxic but u probably just clean with another mon since most of cress checks overlap with other threats or they don’t have a mon with toxic at that point.

Also guys take a look at toxtricity right now

just my 2 cents
 
Looking at :Cresselia: and :Deoxys-Defense:, I have to say I am way more worried about Deoxys Defense being unhealthy as when you compare the two, Deoxys-Defense has far more options for what both want to do in this meta. Cress is stuck with moonlight which makes it worse into weather MUs, and is stuck with calm mind where Deoxys defense gets all sorts of boosting options like NP, Agility, Calm Mind and Amnesia, and has recover which is consistent healing. Deoxys Defense is also a great hazard setter and defensive pokemon in general on top of that so unlike Cresselia you never know what to expect with Deoxys-Defense, it could be a demon set with stored power, it could be a hazard set, a defensive status spreading set or even a regular stallbreaker set that isn't even reliant on stored power. At least with Cress you know what it is gonna do, with Deoxys Defense you just don't know what set it decides to run in NU.

Deoxys Defense is the only pokemon that dropped that I am concerned about being broken down here, mainly because of the demon sets but also with the unpredictability that comes with it due to the fact it doesn't even have to run them with the amount of options Deo-D has. But I guess we shall see if Deo ends up being as stupid as I think it will be, considering cresselia already has a history of being dumb down here from last gen and Deo-D is just better cress in nearly every way besides the max hp
 
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Hi, I'd like to talk about some of the Pokemon in the Neverused tier as of July 4th, 2024. Of the new drops, I'll be skipping Cresselia because I've seen maybe 2 on ladder, and I'm still salty about it from SSNU. I am also skipping Indeedee because it is not a Pokemon.

:pmd/deoxys-defense:
This is such a great addition to the tier. I don't think bulky setup and/or dual dance sets are the way to go on it, rather opt for the utility sets and Nasty Plot. Deodorant has so many great utility options in Spikes, Stealth Rock, Thunder Wave, Knock Off, Teleport, and Trick, making it a staple on so many teams. It can set up hazards and teleport out, get rid of something's item, or act as a fast Diancie... but weaker. I don't believe this Pokemon should be banned, sure, its hazard stacking may be annoying and we have maybe 2 hazard removers, but it's incredibly passive outside of throwing rocks and spikes. Tsareena and Brambleghast do a good job at spinning in front of it, Talonflame can Defog, but probably not as effectively.

:pmd/breloom:
Anyone else think this is mid? Sure, it's good and whatnot, but just not great. It reminds me a lot of Toxtricity pre-shifts. If a team isn't prepared for it, it will destroy. What keeps this in check is all the counterplay in the tier, most notable of which is every team having 1-2 users of Tera Ghost, which is a product of Lucario being around, not Breloom.

:pmd/cinccino:
I initially thought this would be broken, turns out it's not. Cinccino is a great addition to HO teams, though. There's not much to say about this other than it's a Cloyster that has Dragon Dance + Defog as one move. Encore on 2A sets is funny, you should try it.

:pmd/araquanid:
Not going to lie, of all the shifts, this Pokemon has been the most annoying. It's not broken whatsoever, but it's definitely a good, strong Pokemon right now, especially as an alternative to SPYDER.

Now, onto some Pokemon we had before that are broken:
:pmd/Lucario::pmd/feraligatr::pmd/lycanroc-dusk::pmd/mienshao::pmd/toxtricity::pmd/porygon-z:

yeah, there's a good amount of them, some are even new to the "being broken in 2024" group. I know you've seen a few users here and there mention Lucario being broken, such as Phantomistix's recent post in the VR thread. With Slowbro gone, Lucario officially does not care what is on the opposing team, it will break it. Talonflame is its best check, though it is forced to use Tera Ghost just to beat it. Chandelure and Basculegion must run Scarf to outspeed and KO Lucario, but then they become hazard weak in a Deodorant meta, which is no bueno. Feraligatr was already breaking teams with Slowbro in the tier, but now it can run Ice Punch over Crunch to beat its best check, Vileplume. Both Swords Dance and Dragon Dance sets are broken due to how strong the Gatr is, not to mention Aqua Jet is another form of broken priority. Nah, Lycanroc-Dusk should have been banned the moment STABless was invented. +2 Sucker Punch to KO whatever will try to revenge it, notably Mienshao and Breloom is insane. It can go back to running Banded sets again thanks to no Slowbro, and we all remember those scary Close Combat calcs.

Mienshao is a new one to the list. Spamming Close Combat from this demon is easier than ever with Slowbro gone. Swords Dance sets are kind of popping off right now because it can Tera Dark and set up in front of those Psychic-types. Scarf Shao is still a demon, taking advantage of Deodorant's existance and inability to harm it, as well as using its own to support with 4 hazards on the foe's side. Toxtricity and Porygon-Z are also new to the list because of the rise of Krookodile, Magnezone, and Rhyperior. Both of these Pokemon can spam their annoying Normal-type STABs and break through everything, including Ghosts because 1. they don't exist, and 2. Toxt has 2 other moves and PZ has Tera Blast Ghost... There's 1 Pokemon to do "okay" vs. them, and that is Diancie, which loses to Overdrive Toxtricity and Download Porygon-Z using Tera. Shift Gear and Agility sets, respectively, fit well on modern HO teams thanks to the threat of an OHKO on switch. The only thing that holds these back is that you want to Tera them every battle, but that isn't a real problem because they're broken with Tera lol.

Lastly, some Pokemon that recently got much better:
:pmd/vileplume::pmd/raikou:

Vileplume is S-rank material thanks to how well it does into every physical sweeper at the moment, the only thiing to hold it back is the plethora of special breakers that can switch into it for free, like Toxtricity and some Tornadus sets, oh and Sub + DD Flygon exists. Next up we have an unbelievably bad shitmon that isn't shit anymore. Similar to Toxt and PZ, the shifts really benefit Raikou a lot. Sub + CM sets are surprisingly really good, setting up on a good number of common Pokemon and using Pressure to, well, pressure the opponent. That's the only set I've used so far, Specs might be good, idk. I heavily encourage you to use Raikou now that 10 of its checks are gone.

That is all, goodbye.
 
Competitive :kilowattrel: feels like a huge threat on offensive teams. Incin is spammed on ladder, and gives kilo a boost that can 2hko almost anything. It also has a solid defensive typing into the common Talonflame. Brave bird is usually run over flare blitz, so kilo is a pretty easy punish for defog most of the time. Not to mention the tier losing Rhyperior is a huge buff for this mon.
:Deoxys-Defense: is literally Mew 2.0. Coverage, hazards, and set-up in one mon is kinda cracked. I still hope this mon doesn't get banned :sphearical:
 
Deoxys-Defense

:sv/Deoxys-Defense:
71oORB0JlOL.jpg


I think :deodorant: is the most interesting (and has the most potential) of the new drops and I wanted to talk about a couple of this mons sets! There are a lot of great options here and this isn't even an all inclusive list. Most of these (barring cosmic power sets) I think are great for the tier... but I'm concerned the cosmic power sets may be too much. I think the debate here comes down to how easy you think this mon is to support. Personally leaning towards the ban side. A little toxic spam goes a long way here! If you can kill/force a tera on/toxic their dark type a lot of the best counter-play simply still loses. People often compare DeoD to Cresselia, and while Cress is a good mon I believe it is more linear and DeoD is a good bit better here.

:Deoxys-Defense: Deoxys-Defense @ Weakness Policy / Leftovers / Colbur Berry
Ability: Pressure
Tera Type: Poison / Steel
EVs: 248 HP / 8 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Cosmic Power
- Stored Power
- Night Shade / Taunt
- Recover

I think this is the most potent DeoD set! 90 base speed is ludicrous on a mon like this and it has an easy time setting up cosmic powers on basically any neutral hit especially if they are slower than it. Big weaknesses here are dark types, haze, taunt, and trick scarf/toxic orb. Tera is expensive but eliminates the toxic/toxic orb weakness. Fast taunt lets it beat most haze users (barring fast tentacruel and inteleon I guess), stops most phasing (barring dragon tail flygon or dragalge), and denies most parallel set up. Getting the trick turn right is essential here but I also wouldn't call trick sufficient counterplay. Weakness policy boosts stored power to even higher levels (lets be real the mon isn't that strong even with +6 +6 off of cosmic power, but its also essentially unkillable if positioned well with a few boosts). The big debate here is night shade vs taunt. Night shade is your move to hit dark types and gets good chip all game. This is especially helpful for (the best dark type) incineroar since this damage typically isn't recoverable and it can only come in a few times. Taunt leaves you mono-attacking and you can't do anything to dark types, but stopping haze / roar / whirlwind can be very deadly as well.
:Deoxys-Defense: Deoxys-Defense @ Leftovers / Colbur Berry
Ability: Pressure
Tera Type: Poison / Steel
EVs: 248 HP / 8 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Cosmic Power
- Psychic Noise / Taunt
- Night Shade
- Recover

This set aims win by night shading the opposing team down. Cosmic power makes this mon very hard to kill. Psychic noise and taunt both deny recovery. Taunt denies parallel set up (but you don't really care about that), but also haze, slow toxic, and roar/whirlwind as well. Psychic noise has the benefit of providing a stab move which can be nice as well.
:Deoxys-Defense: Deoxys-Defense @ Colbur Berry / Leftovers / Choice Scarf
Ability: Pressure
Tera Type: Poison / Steel
EVs: 248 HP / 8 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Taunt / Trick
- Night Shade
- Teleport / Stealth Rock / Spikes / Trick
- Recover

This is set is seriously underrated. Fast taunt + night shade lets you stall break a lot of defensive mons (notably but not limited to cress) while also leaving a free slot. Teleport is largely unreleased in gen9, but it provides a valuable free switch for any breaker in the tier. Hazards can be used here for role compression as well, but I think teleport is the main reason to use the set here. Trick is for use specifically alongside choice scarf to cripple switch ins.
:Deoxys-Defense: Deoxys-Defense @ Red Card / Mental Herb / Colbur Berry
Ability: Pressure
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Spikes
- Stealth Rock
- Knock Off / Taunt
- Night Shade

Heard you like hazards and your boy deo is here to bring them! Deo has the bulk and speed to pull off a double hazard set which is basically unheard of in SV NU (the other option is essentially speed booster iron thorns, which has a faster taunt but is largely worse overall.) Red Card is the preferred item here to not be setup fodder. Knock off removes items (especially boots) and hits magic bounce espeon. Taunt is always useful on DeoD, works well alongside night shade, and can stop hazards from slower setters like swampert.
:Deoxys-Defense: Deoxys-Defense @ Colbur Berry / Mental Herb
Ability: Pressure
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Trick Room
- Teleport
- Stealth Rock / Spikes
- Night Shade

Trick Room doesn't get many turns so trick room + teleport makes DeoD the premier trick room setter in the tier! The speed is interesting here because I believe it is still useful for night shade and hazard setting. Teleport has negative priority and is the only move you will likely be clicking after setting up TR so the speed isn't an issue there. A min speed set with defense or spdef investment also works here as well.
:Deoxys-Defense: Deoxys-Defense @ Weakness Policy
Ability: Pressure
Tera Type: Fairy / Ground
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Nasty Plot
- Psychic / Psyshock / Psychic Noise
- Focus Blast / Terablast
- Shadow Ball / Thunderbolt / Ice Beam / Energy Ball / Flash Cannon / Terablast

Admittedly this one is a bit of theory-monning for me as I haven't personally tried nasty plot. (Although I know some people who have.) I'm not sure if this is a legitimately good set or just fun but either way I thought it was worth a mention. This mon isn't strong but can make good use of weakness policy and has lots of boosting opportunity and coverage galore!
This is by no means an all inclusive list! Some notable omission:
1. Calm Mind - I think there is potential here but have generally enjoyed cosmic power sets more. I think cress has better 2 move coverage and is typically the choice here for specifically cm variants.
2. Iron Defense - This would be a premier option with body press. Maybe CM | ID | Stored | Recover or Rest has merit but if feel like you get more out of the slots with cosmic power.
3. Agility - DeoD doesn't really have the offensive stats to make use of this, but more boosts alongside stored power (and weakness policy) are possibly useful?
4. Meteor Beam / Charge Beam - I've seen this in the taunt slot on cosmic power + stored powers sets since it can afford to waste the turns and likes the special attack boosts. I'm not sure how I feel about those sets so I left it here.
 
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It's time to go.
Honourable Ladies and Gentlemen of the NeverUsed Parliament, I accept this Point of Order to say one simple thing: THIS THING IS CRAZZZZZZZY.

It's that bad?
Yes.

Exhibit A

Please refer to the replay attached to the title above.

This is a battle that just happened with fellow NU MP Shengineer, who unfortunately fell victim to my perpetrating Cresselia. Look at how badly I play this game: Turn 1 I lead Lycanroc (????????????). Then I try to kill Incineroar with a Sucker Punch from a Toxicroak, no Terastallization involved. Yes, I did almost everything possible to lose this game, but still, I win.

Why? Because once Brambleghast was taken care of (and I guess Incineroar in this case too, though usually Cress beats that), literally nothing was stopping my Cresselia. The Kee Berry popped and it was over for Staraptor. The Inteleon was left fishing for crits. And the poor, new Cinccino could barely leave a scratch. I guess he should've thought about bringing a third Cress check... (/s).

Exhibit B

And look what we managed to do to our boy Diamonds_realm. A very good-hearted and intelligent player destroyed by this filth. Look at how the special attacking God INTELEON falls to Cresselia's infallible bulk. And again, look at my positioning before that moment. When all else fails, I fall back on the duck and consume everything in a (stored) fire.

Exhibit C

Poor, poor Morgan Threeman. If you were interested in running a fun team like Trick Room, Cresselia laughs in the face of your niche. This Pokemon's presence is so restrictive that you really have to consciously prep for it when you are building in this meta. And though we are ten days in this new meta, it seems like people in this thread figured it out already days ago.

But why is Deoxys-D different?
Cresselia takes much better advantage with Stored Power through its naturally better offenses + Calm Mind. Also, because of Cresselia's high HP, her bulk is actually fairly comparable to that of Deoxys-D's. So better offenses, pretty equivalent bulk = much easier cheese. Deo-D actually has a really hard time winning with Stored Power sets with Calm Mind and is much more valuable as a defensive unit. I see Deoxys-D as a really healthy addition to the tier with the utility it offers--really fucks with balance teams.

Hmm... Cresselia kinda sounds braindead.
Yes! We should probably ban it lol.



source.gif
 
But why is Deoxys-D different?
Cresselia takes much better advantage with Stored Power through its naturally better offenses + Calm Mind. Also, because of Cresselia's high HP, her bulk is actually fairly comparable to that of Deoxys-D's. So better offenses, pretty equivalent bulk = much easier cheese. Deo-D actually has a really hard time winning with Stored Power sets with Calm Mind and is much more valuable as a defensive unit. I see Deoxys-D as a really healthy addition to the tier with the utility it offers--really fucks with balance teams.

Hmm... Cresselia kinda sounds braindead.
Yes! We should probably ban it lol.



To be fair I think stored power deo-d is more braindead but yeah cress is cringe even if i'm not entirely sold on it being broken down here yet with deo-d just being a better version of cress with more sets essentially.

One reaaally important thing you forgot to mention that Deo-d has over cress is the ability to double dance with moves like nasty plot, agility, and cosmic power along with stored power, also the offenses that cress has are 5 points higher which isn't much of a difference at all as far as offenses go. You would absolutely never run calm mind on Deoxys Defense simply because it has better options.


Running a set of Stored power cosmic power, nasty plot and whatever you choose for slot 4, maybe recover to be a little bitch in front of anything that isn't a dark type? Maybe focus blast to punish dark types like incineroar that think they are safe. Hell I could even see something like meteor beam being slotted since nothing is immune and you make your stored powers stronger by using it if you are bold enough to run white herb over lefties or boots.

Yes cress is braindead but deoxys-defense is more braindead when you consider it can use nasty plot and cosmic power or even np and agility to threaten sweeps that cress could only wish to achieve. The amount of variance that deoxys has over cress and the far more terrifying stat boosting options it has in stuff like cosmic power, agility and nasty plot in the stored power department is what makes it better in practice since you can make it not only not die but also tailor it to sweep teams in ways cress simply cannot due to the fact that deoxys-defense has way more options and variance to its stored power sets as it just has better boosting options in general despite having 5 less offense
 
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To be fair I think stored power deo-d is more braindead but yeah cress is cringe even if i'm not entirely sold on it being broken down here yet with deo-d just being a better version of cress with more sets essentially
This is patently false. There are far more options in this tier to deal with a Stored Power Deo-D in comparison to Cresselia. Deo-D's passive nature makes it easier to shut down with other manners of utility (Taunt, Encore, Roar, etc.). And note I say easier because while Cresselia is obviously victim to these things, it's way more difficult to justify clicking one of those moves against it because you know there is a +1 million Stored Power ready to hit hard. Deo-D does piss poor damage to anything that resists Stored Power, whereas Cresselia tears through them. Cress also benefits from having room for Moonblast to hit Dark-types, which many Deo-D sets don't have the liberty of.

I don't even have much to do on the calculator...

0 SpA Deoxys-Defense Stored Power (260 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Abomasnow: 238-282 (74.1 - 87.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Like what are we doing here LMFAO (and don't say max special attack, that's not a real set and gets obliterated by any breaker). And if you look at what Deo-D was running in RU, it didn't even use Cosmic Power a majority of the time. I think the people concerned with this set ought to understand that there is far more benefit to running other Deoxys-Defense sets, especially when this Deoxys-Defense set already exists but better: Cresselia.

Edit: You are dishonorable for editing your post after mine.

Running a set of Stored power cosmic power, nasty plot and whatever you choose for slot 4, maybe recover to be a little bitch in front of anything that isn't a dark type? Maybe focus blast to punish dark types like incineroar that think they are safe. Hell I could even see something like meteor beam being slotted since nothing is immune and you make your stored powers stronger by using it if you are bold enough to run white herb over lefties or boots.

Yes cress is braindead but deoxys-defense is more braindead when you consider it can use nasty plot and cosmic power or even np and agility to threaten sweeps that cress could only wish to achieve. The amount of variance that deoxys has over cress and the far more terrifying stat boosting options it has in stuff like cosmic power, agility and nasty plot in the stored power department is what makes it better in practice since you can make it not only not die but also tailor it to sweep teams in ways cress simply cannot due to the fact that deoxys-defense has way more options and variance to its stored power sets as it just has better boosting options in general despite having 5 less offense

The things you are listing are things that you would find, in practice, are garbage. I'm genuinely not trying to be provocative or offensive but I'm not sure you've played a lot of this tier over the past ten days and have observed the general practices of the meta. These just aren't things we worry about. Whether or not if you tried using them they would work, I'm not sure. But I will say this to your last point with that in mind: you don't run Calm Mind or Nasty Plot on a Deoxys-Defense.
 
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This is patently false. There are far more options in this tier to deal with a Stored Power Deo-D in comparison to Cresselia. Deo-D's passive nature makes it easier to shut down with other manners of utility (Taunt, Encore, Roar, etc.). And note I say easier because while Cresselia is obviously victim to these things, it's way more difficult to justify clicking one of those moves against it because you know there is a +1 million Stored Power ready to hit hard. Deo-D does piss poor damage to anything that resists Stored Power, whereas Cresselia tears through them. Cress also benefits from having room for Moonblast to hit Dark-types, which many Deo-D sets don't have the liberty of.

I don't even have much to do on the calculator...

0 SpA Deoxys-Defense Stored Power (260 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Abomasnow: 238-282 (74.1 - 87.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Like what are we doing here LMFAO (and don't say max special attack, that's not a real set and gets obliterated by any breaker). And if you look at what Deo-D was running in RU, it didn't even use Cosmic Power a majority of the time. I think the people concerned with this set ought to understand that there is far more benefit to running other Deoxys-Defense sets, especially when this Deoxys-Defense set already exists but better: Cresselia.

Edit: You are dishonorable for editing your post after mine.



The things you are listing are things that you would find, in practice, are garbage. I'm genuinely not trying to be provocative or offensive but I'm not sure you've played a lot of this tier over the past ten days and have observed the general practices of the meta. These just aren't things we worry about. Whether or not if you tried using them they would work, I'm not sure. But I will say this to your last point with that in mind: you don't run Calm Mind or Nasty Plot on a Deoxys-Defense.
Cress is just as passive without boosts? I mean base 75 isn't doing jack without boosts either and runs into the same issues to a worse degree since a calm mind just isn't as strong as an NP.

I do think you are overselling cress because in practice deoxys defense has more options to shut down the counterplay you listed like encore/roar/taunt because it has taunt as well, which also screws over cresselia. It might not always be able to fit it but it can and often does run it.

Nasty plot is a real option. At plus 2 even off of a neutral nature it is still doing a lot of damage to things and with a set like recover/taunt/stored power/np and max hp would be a huge nightmare for anything that isn't a faster mon or a dark type.

I think deoxys defense can get a lot done on offense in the low power level of the tier and while the offensive sets aren't the best, cosmic power sets definitely want to consider slotting NP to make stored power nuclear.

I will admit Deoxys-Defense has a bit of 4MSS but cress has less to pick from and really only one viable set anyway so that is kinda moot even if said stored power set is good.

My point is deoxys speed can do the same thing better in practice with a set with recover/cosmic power/nasty plot/stored power even if it can't hit darks.
 
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Cress is just as passive without boosts? I mean base 75 isn't doing jack without boosts either.

I do think you are overselling cress because in practice deoxys defense has more options to shut down the counterplay you listed like encore/roar/taunt because it has taunt as well, it might not always be able to fit it but it can and often does run it.

Deoxys has a way to shut down the counterplay, yes, but it automatically loses to Dark-types. Cresselia has the luxury of running CM / Moonlight / Stab / Moonblast, Deoxys cannot use Recover / CM or Cosmic Power / Stab / Taunt + Focus Blast + Night Shade. Deoxys with only one move loses to every Pokemon with the Dark-typing, including Murkrow! Cresselia at least is able to hit Dark-types thanks to its coverage in Moonblast, which it is able to fit on 99% of the time.
 
Deoxys has a way to shut down the counterplay, yes, but it automatically loses to Dark-types. Cresselia has the luxury of running CM / Moonlight / Stab / Moonblast, Deoxys cannot use Recover / CM or Cosmic Power / Stab / Taunt + Focus Blast + Night Shade. Deoxys with only one move loses to every Pokemon with the Dark-typing, including Murkrow! Cresselia at least is able to hit Dark-types thanks to its coverage in Moonblast, which it is able to fit on 99% of the time.
Yeah that's a good point. Deoxys admittedly has focus blast... which is unideal for offensive coverage against darks which it has to try and slot.

But I mean deoxys probably has options that hit a lot of darks neutrally anyway so I think its workable.

The main reason I think deoxys defense is more broken is because it is naturally a harder mon to prep for with all the sets it can run

At least with cresselia you kind of know what is coming because it runs the same stored power set all the time

Anyway this debate felt like a waste of time, as stored power sweepers both clearly have their merits and drawbacks and are equally dangerous to deal with



Anyways, admittedly I pay more attention to SV RU and above so my info on SV NU as a tier is a bit rusty to say the least so thanks for the discourse I guess.
 
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Deoxys can also just Tera and ignore Dark-types and beat them down with Night Shade, beating even Dark-types with access to recovery like Brute Bonnet. I think Deoxys' access to Pressure, higher speed, and more tools like Taunt, Night Shade, and even non-cheese stuff like Knock Off, Spikes, and Teleport makes it a far better and more "dishonest" Pokemon than Cresselia, although both are pretty degenerate in this metagame in my opinion.

Comparing the passivity of the two is honestly just splitting hairs; both are incredibly passive at the exchange of being more obese than GW's mother, I can't really say one is more passive than the other because while Cresselia does have Calm Mind to eventually become a very powerful attacker, Deoxys can actually shut down anti-setup attempts like Haze using Taunt, and even Pressure stall Clear Smog, while also having reliable damage in Night Shade that Cresselia lacks, making it stronger of the two assuming both are completely unboosted.
 
Deoxys can also just Tera and ignore Dark-types and beat them down with Night Shade, beating even Dark-types with access to recovery like Brute Bonnet.
But you agree that Cresselia does a far better job at this right, without sacrificing an inch of a moveslot?

I also disagree with the notion that the fact that it has Knock Off, Spikes, and Teleport makes it anymore degenerate than Cresselia. What about those moves are "dishonest"? What relevance does that word hold? Genuine questions.
 
But you agree that Cresselia does a far better job at this right, without sacrificing an inch of a moveslot?

I also disagree with the notion that the fact that it has Knock Off, Spikes, and Teleport makes it anymore degenerate than Cresselia. What about those moves are "dishonest"? What relevance does that word hold? Genuine questions.
I'm sorry but I edited my post as well ;-; I hope that answers your question. By dishonest I mean it generally allows worse players to beat better players, basically I'm calling it "broken" or banworthy.
 
I guess if I really had to choose though, I'd say Deoxys-D is a better Pokemon overall, and Cresselia is more "broken". I hope that makes sense. Cresselia can snowball much more easily due to the power increase given via Calm Mind, but Deoxys is far more difficult to reliably shut down due to its set of tools including Pressure, Psychic Noise, Night Shade, and Taunt, on top of being a better Pokemon outside of being some BS setup Pokemon thanks to the Knock Off, Spikes, and Teleport I mentioned before.
 
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When I initially posted I actually didn't think it would be controversial at all, but because of this productive conversation, I'd like to propose something perhaps unprecedented for this era of NU: A double suspect test on Cresselia and Deoxys-Defense. I think it's clear at this point that there are logical reasons to believe that Deo-D is an unhealthy addition to the tier, and I don't see why we can't look at it in conglomerate with its most often compared counterpart.

To aid my argument, here is an AI-generated image of Cresselia and Deoxys-D fighting:

cresselia-and-deoxys-defense-get-into-a-fight_RLLIh6-M_upscaled.jpg

(I'm kinda high and I honestly don't even know where to begin...)
 
When I initially posted I actually didn't think it would be controversial at all, but because of this productive conversation, I'd like to propose something perhaps unprecedented for this era of NU: A double suspect test on Cresselia and Deoxys-Defense. I think it's clear at this point that there are logical reasons to believe that Deo-D is an unhealthy addition to the tier, and I don't see why we can't look at it in conglomerate with its most often compared counterpart.

To aid my argument, here is an AI-generated image of Cresselia and Deoxys-D fighting:

View attachment 646828
(I'm kinda high and I honestly don't even know where to begin...)

Pretty sure multiple Pokémon being tested at once tend to not be the most popular idea. I don’t even see what the purpose of that would be here?

Also gross @ using ai junk
 
Pretty sure multiple Pokémon being tested at once tend to not be the most popular idea. I don’t even see what the purpose of that would be here?

Also gross @ using ai junk
These Pokemon fulfill an incredibly similar role and presence in the metagame and suspecting these one at a time is a thorough waste of time
 
I've been very vocal about Deoxys being superior to Cresselia in every way and I'm here to add my two cents in a more complete post (also I'll get a free react when PowerOfMemes eventually hahas this instead of actually replying to my arguments for once). I'll try to be as unbiased as possible and be thorough when explaining the points each pokemon has over the other (and why I think Deoxys is objectively better and Cresselia is nowhere near being worthy of a suspect test).

Exhibit A

Please refer to the replay attached to the title above.

This is a battle that just happened with fellow NU MP Shengineer, who unfortunately fell victim to my perpetrating Cresselia. Look at how badly I play this game: Turn 1 I lead Lycanroc (????????????). Then I try to kill Incineroar with a Sucker Punch from a Toxicroak, no Terastallization involved. Yes, I did almost everything possible to lose this game, but still, I win.

Why? Because once Brambleghast was taken care of (and I guess Incineroar in this case too, though usually Cress beats that), literally nothing was stopping my Cresselia. The Kee Berry popped and it was over for Staraptor. The Inteleon was left fishing for crits. And the poor, new Cinccino could barely leave a scratch. I guess he should've thought about bringing a third Cress check... (/s).

Exhibit B

And look what we managed to do to our boy Diamonds_realm. A very good-hearted and intelligent player destroyed by this filth. Look at how the special attacking God INTELEON falls to Cresselia's infallible bulk. And again, look at my positioning before that moment. When all else fails, I fall back on the duck and consume everything in a (stored) fire.

Exhibit C

Poor, poor Morgan Threeman. If you were interested in running a fun team like Trick Room, Cresselia laughs in the face of your niche. This Pokemon's presence is so restrictive that you really have to consciously prep for it when you are building in this meta. And though we are ten days in this new meta, it seems like people in this thread figured it out already days ago.

These replays do well to show that Cresselia can in fact, snowball out of control very quickly if the enemy misplays their ways of dealing with it or get unfortunate, but they definitely do not show why it is anywhere near broken. Replay 1 Shengineer sacked both his Cresselia answers before the Cresselia even got on the field. In the second replay DRealm doesn't even have proper counterplay for this Cresselia and you still would have lost if he had attacked with Flygon or gotten 5 hits (or a higher roll on the second Tail Slap). The third replay shows a fun team that like you said, is just that, a fun niche team that is obviously not intended to win every game.

That being said, I think they do highlight a very important point in favor of Cresselia that people seem to underestimate or overlook completely. Cresselia does not have comparable bulk to Deoxys-Defense, in fact its bulk is quite a bit better, which in turn allows it to run more speed and less bulk.

252 SpA Abomasnow Blizzard vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Cresselia: 121-144 (31.7 - 37.7%) -- 91.5% chance to 3HKO
252 SpA Abomasnow Blizzard vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Deoxys-Defense: 94-112 (39 - 46.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

That being said, I don't think these replays are good showings of why one mon is better than the other as in all three situations, a Deoxys with the exact same set (CM + Kee Berry), would have still won the game.

But why is Deoxys-D different?
Cresselia takes much better advantage with Stored Power through its naturally better offenses + Calm Mind. Also, because of Cresselia's high HP, her bulk is actually fairly comparable to that of Deoxys-D's. So better offenses, pretty equivalent bulk = much easier cheese. Deo-D actually has a really hard time winning with Stored Power sets with Calm Mind and is much more valuable as a defensive unit. I see Deoxys-D as a really healthy addition to the tier with the utility it offers--really fucks with balance teams.

Saying Cresselia has better offenses when talking about a 5 base point difference in offensive stats is very disingenuous imo, especially when its bulk and speed and natural immunity to ground are much better points to bring up that you have completely glossed over. You say that Deoxys has a really hard time winning with CM sets but do not actually provide any arguments as to why or any replays showing that it does. If you run the same sets but substitute Moonblast with Night Shade I do not doubt that Deoxys would also win in 99% of the situations that Cresselia wins in, and in fact does much better in the Incineroar, Bronzong, Muk and Vaporeon matchups than Cresselia. These 4 matchups are essentially the most important ones as they are surging in use and are what I would argue the most common defensive counterplay to the sweepers. Night Shade does more than Cresselia's Moonblast at +2, and I don't think I need to elaborate on the Bronzong interaction. Pressure I also find A LOT more valuable for a setup sweeper since you actually get to beat the Haze users like Vaporeon, the Clear Smog users (Muk, Gastrodon), and are much better at stalling out Encores.

This is patently false. There are far more options in this tier to deal with a Stored Power Deo-D in comparison to Cresselia. Deo-D's passive nature makes it easier to shut down with other manners of utility (Taunt, Encore, Roar, etc.). And note I say easier because while Cresselia is obviously victim to these things, it's way more difficult to justify clicking one of those moves against it because you know there is a +1 million Stored Power ready to hit hard. Deo-D does piss poor damage to anything that resists Stored Power, whereas Cresselia tears through them. Cress also benefits from having room for Moonblast to hit Dark-types, which many Deo-D sets don't have the liberty of.

Saying that Deoxys' passive nature makes it easier to shut down with utility like mentioned is objectively wrong because of Pressure, which I have previously mentioned. Obviously it is harder to justify clicking it into a Cresselia, but I would argue it is equally as hard to click it into a Deoxys running CM too, and the Deoxys can only be hit by them half as many times as Cresselia.

I do not argue that Moonblast is a very good positive towards Cresselia, but it only matters in the Umbreon and Brute Bonnet matchups. Deoxys' Night Shade however is much better in the 4 matchups I have mentioned above, and those matchups are much more important than these 2. Simply put, Deoxys does not need Moonblast, and has a much better option for the more common matchups.

The things you are listing are things that you would find, in practice, are garbage. I'm genuinely not trying to be provocative or offensive but I'm not sure you've played a lot of this tier over the past ten days and have observed the general practices of the meta. These just aren't things we worry about. Whether or not if you tried using them they would work, I'm not sure. But I will say this to your last point with that in mind: you don't run Calm Mind or Nasty Plot on a Deoxys-Defense.

I do not doubt that Agility Deoxys would be quite bad, but simply casting aside and ignoring CM and NP also feels very disingenuous to me. I would very much like to hear your reasoning as to why they would be bad, especially when you consider than Cresselia is succeeding with CM and you yourself say that they are very similar pokemon. You yourself say you are not sure whether they would work or not, and then go on to completely refute their viablity in the next sentence without providing any further reasoning.

I personally think that both NP (with Psyshock/Psychic not booty 60bp SP) and CM Deoxys have merits. I have already talked about CM Deoxys and we have very good reason to believe it would be on par, if not better than Cresselia. NP is also very interesting as it has a very good speed tier, and at +2 it cleanly 2HKOs Vaporeon, Umbreon, Incineroar (while eating a Knock Off very comfortably), and its bulk allows it more wiggle room to avoid revenge killers than other mons in the same tier. I do not think that it would be as good as a CM set or a CP set, but it definitely far from unviable.

--

To me, with everything I've mentioned above, it seems pretty clear that Deoxys is a better setup sweeper than Cresselia, based upon the fact that it does better into most of the common defensive counterplay, and that Cresselia's Moonblast advantage only matters into the 2 less common of the 4 dark types we have in the tier, its speed advantage isn't useful in most games, as well as Pressure being by far the better ability to facilitate these sets.

While they are relatively comparable as setup sweepers, even with a clear better option, now we get to why I think Deoxys is an infinitely better pokemon in general. Cresselia only has two viable sets, and one of them is just a support option that can also be run by a mon that is far more threatening with a scarf (Indeedee), and the CM set. Deoxys meanwhile, has 3 setup sets (CM, CP, NP), as well as the generic utility sets that make use of its much more varied movepool. Along with being THE best hazard setter in the tier, Deoxys also has access to Knock Off to facilitate the hazard stack playstyle, the previously mentioned Night Shade for a consistent source of damage even without offensive investment, an objectively better healing move, Taunt, Teleport and Psychic Noise.

Do I think action needs to be taken?

On Cresselia, I would vehemently oppose any action. The pokemon is as one dimensional as they come, and gets outperformed at its only job. I do not doubt that counterplay is not consistent, and that it is fairly easy to tailor teams to facilitate a late game sweep by either this or Deoxys, but I do not think that taking action on Cresselia will solve any issues.

On Deoxys, frankly, I am unsure. Some days I think yes, others I think not. Today, I am leaning more towards yes as I believe its set ambiguity combined with how good it is at doing whatever it is you want it to do, whether that be set up and cheese or throw down hazards and disrupt teams, is too much. That being said, Deoxys is not the most pressing issue imo, and there are others we need to address first. If this gets banned first, all we are doing is removing another key defensive tool right after losing a bunch of them in the most recent shift.

I apologize if this is a lengthy read but I think I have been very thorough and haven't repeated any points beyond necessary, that being said,

PLEASE BAN LUCARIO AND LYCANROC.

Edit: Here's a replay of CM Deo doing exactly what CM Cress does against a team with Roar, Clear Smog, Taunt, AND Muk-Alola, one where it would have won even without the Trick on the Gastrodon because of Pressure and Night Shade being stronger than Moonblast.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9nu-2158934907
 
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