Metagame NP: Stage 12 - Bitter Sweet Symphony (Cloyster + Lucario Banned)

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While I agree Gallade can be a big nuisance, I believe there's a Pokemon out there that's a sleeper threat, Flygon. Let the haha's roll in.

:pmd/flygon: This Pokemon just has so much versatility and that is what makes it a pain to take care of. Obviously, there are the bulky Stealth Rock sets which aren't scary, but the rest (Choice Band, Offensive Stealth Rock, Eject Pack, Dragon Dance, Choice Scarf) is where lines blur and checks become less common between them.

Choice Band Flygon in the current metagame is a very powerful wallbreaker that can easily beat down Bronzong and its Grass-type checks with a powerful U-turn, which it can click repeatedly. Your best bet to check it defensively is fish for burns with Effect Spore, Scald, and Flame Body or use Orthworm. Now, don't get me wrong Orthworm is a good Pokemon, but it's not exactly slappable on too many teams. And, for the other checks, Flygon 2HKOes both Vileplume and almost always Vaporeon (98.4%) after Stealth Rock. Flygon could also just use U-turn on the latter before getting hit, chipping it and bringing in a threat. I've also seen Flygon recently go for Rock-type attacks (Stone Edge for power of Rock Slide for reliability) to OHKO Talonflame upon switch-in. Some have even chosen Outrage to just have an easy nuke button versus fatter teams. Counterplay also exists offensively, but thanks to its not pitiful bulk and gen 3 stats, it tends to take an attack or two from even offensive Pokemon if needed. Tera Steel has also caught on more recently to let it more easily live attacks so that it can continually terrorize your opponent. And, for those faster Pokemon, First Impression still hurts and can easily pick off threats.

Offensive Stealth Rock, while being the least threatening set, is still an important one to note nonetheless. Normally, this set carries the utility of First Impression, which is great on balance builds to check hyper offense or faster Pokemon in general, but this means Talonflame can come in easily and use Defog to clear the Stealth Rock. This has lead me to run Rock Slide over First Impression at times, as it can OHKO Talonflame upon switch-in or on a Defog and alongside Earthquake, it can cause uncomfortable 50/50s for them if they've clicked Will-O-Wisp instead. Finishing off the set, it also has access to U-turn, ensuring it isn't passive and helps to keep up momentum.

Eject Pack Flygon is an interesting set that people aren't using enough. Flygon easily calls in physical walls like Vileplume, Talonflame, Swampert, and Tsareena, which all come in to get Stealth Rock set up on them and then are hard by a Draco Meteor while Flygon keeps up momentum by switching to a threatening partner. Flygon could even choose to stay in and get some chip on checks like Bronzong and Orthworm with Fire Blast. The most dangerous part of this set is the surprise factor and how it can weaken physically defensive Pokemon for its partners. Even after it's clear that Flygon is a special attacker, very little can handle its STABs + Fire Blast comfortably. It can be a slight momentum sink if Draco Meteor misses or if Eject Pack already got used up, but the former is just unfortunate Pokemon luck and the latter would only happen if it threatens the opponent currently, which can take advantage with double switches or by just getting some chip. Also, Eject Pack sets have also been found to run Earthquake with a Hasty Nature for a stronger STAB move to hit the non-Ground immune Steel-types with, as all of those are specially defensive.

Dragon Dance Flygon is the most threatening setup sweeper to me. Its already decent Speed tier becomes hard to handle after it's doubled with Dragon Dance + Scale Shot, which it will almost always get off. And, with Substitute becoming more popular to avoid status ailments and to take advantage of weaker Pokemon, Flygon is a Pokemon that can easily spiral out of control if you don't react correctly and quickly enough. Substitute + Tera Steel is especially annoying to handle, as in most cases you need to switch out because of how Flygon uses what would've normally been your check, like Vileplume, Tsareena, or Talonflame, as set up fodder now. There's also been some small development with Dragon Dance sets now containing an EV spread of 32 HP / 224 Atk / 252 Spe to ensure their Tera Steel Substitute doesn't get broken by Talonflame's Brave Bird. And, while more uncommon, Tera Fire + Fire Punch sets still exist to hit Bronzong, Orthworm, and Magnet Rise Klefki which could be a decent countermeasures otherwise.

Choice Scarf Flygon is the most slappable set and the most popular because of it. Its great Speed tier, utility, typing, and ability make it a strong addition to all teams because it helps offensively and defensively. Stealth Rock and U-turn lets you capitalize on switches and Outrage can provide an easy way to clean games. This is walled decently by Talonflame however, so if you can fit Stealth Rock elsewhere, it's worth it to have Stone Edge or Rock Slide to OHKO Talonflame as it tries to check you. With Levitate also ignoring both Sticky Web and Spikes and its resistance to Stealth Rock, Flygon makes for the premier Choice Scarf user for Boots Spam and regular balance teams alike. It is outsped by other common Choice Scarf users and walls can easily handle it with how it can be locked in to a fairly weak move, but with it being a more supportive Pokemon, this isn't that big a deal. Its checks offensively change, however, as it now beats all non-Choice Scarf users and even handle some boosted threats like Oricorio-Pom-Pom and Torterra. Tera Steel is nice to survive a hit from these threats if needed, and Tera Ghost has risen a bit to better handle Lucario's Extreme Speed, blanking it completely.

With how all Flygon sets have different checks and with certain sets being able to beat other sets' checks, I believe Flygon is starting to become a bit much for the tier. While it isn't the absolute worst thing right now because we have other things to deal with (possibly Gallade, Lucario, Cloyster, Cresselia, [setup sweeper #5], etc.), I believe we should all keep an eye on this Pokemon, as it could easily be banned once all the other strong setup sweepers have been dealt with (whether that be through ban or meta evolution). This isn't exactly a surprisingly new take either, as we've already seen some support from council members in the past two votes from Pokeslice, Dr. Phd. BJ, and zS.
 
I'm going to be very brief in this discussion. Because you guys summarized very well PowerOfMemes and Diamonds_realm . But I have an slightly different point to bring in both Gallade and Flygon.

:sv/gallade:

Gallade is now with the Ban of Gator the single strongest Physical attacker that the tier. And there is no problem with that, the problem to me lies in that way that happens. Gallade is the biggest benefactor of the bans and rises. Even with it just good speed for the tier standards at 284 there are only few mons ranked as NU that can naturally out speed and OHKO. Talonflame ,Cinccino, Offensive Ape (LO/Band), Banded Flygon, Bramble . All the others with common builds either can't or have like terrible rolls like 12% and for sure will get OHKO back and every single one gets dropped by scarf Gallade with Rocks for sure. Priority neutrality/resist is great just like rock resist on a tier that isn't the best in removal atm.

That by it self just make it one the best Pokemon around and I'm fine with that. But there is one single thing that makes me very very angry at this mon and think it is very uncompetitive Scope Lens + crit moves. Scope Lens by it self don't make mad, Intelon used it whole life without making it look cheap specially because we know it can just Specs Hydro for similar dmg than crit Snipe Shot . Gallede takes it to a different level make defensive counter play non existent your only option is to out offense it and like I showed from full is not an easy task specially without knowing the set. It resembles me a lot of Quick Claw G-Brow in the way that your not more playing Showdown but coin toss at some point. If not for that build I'd be 100% fine with it for sure.


:sv/flygon:

Flygon is the best mon on the tier carried by its unpredictability and it defensive utility wile being a offensive mon. Honestly I think that every top tier mon has positives and negatives that bend the tier to it's shape. In Flygon's case it brings a lot of team flexibility for the builder by being the glue some balance cores, integral part of HO teams, great setup finisher option, rocker, priority user...

The more i write about it the stronger I realize it is. But thinking on the tier as a whole Flygon keeps a lot of the tier in check but not in a overpowered way. Yeah its centralizing because more teams than not will have one of those Flygon sets but isn't a mon that is unreasonable or detrimental to prepare for most matchups I'd say even the contrary by building taking it in consideration you are putting yourself in a better situation against most teams even it they don't feature it.

It only worries me a bit that can happen a Mew situation. Where it was very versatile but because of changes on the power of the tier a single set broke the tier. Flygon is by far the best Dragon Dancer on the tier. Thorns hit harder but has a much much harder time setting up and after one dance is still slower than any Scarfer. DD Loaded Dice might break the tier in the near future.
 
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Im dont know how you guys feel but nu just isn't as fun with muk in the tier. It heavily relies on rng which nerfs it a bit, I guess. Lucario is the only fun mon to use that can switch into it but that gets blown up by drain punch. Registeel just doesn't fit well into many of the balanced teams I prefer and gets chipped super easy. Plume is a cheesy mon that can't even do shit back other than sapping its strength. There is so many more steel and poison types in ru so it would most likely be stuck in bl hell if it gets banned which is unfortunate.

I just hate the amount of teams I scrap because "Ope I don't have a muk switch-in". I'v relied more heavily on sample teams for this tier than any other tier simply because of this pos.

Offense rules in this tier, I get it, and many physical breakers can delete it after a boost, I'm just tired of a perfect flygon sweep or a perfectly healthy physdf pert get ruined by an untimely knock off poison. :changry:
 
LeonLeeds, I absolutely agree that Alolan Muk is one of the worst Pokemon to deal with on balance with how it has Knock Off + Clear Smog and can spread poison very easily with Poison Touch, but there is enough counterplay to not require a ban.

As you described, Lucario gets blown back by Drain Punch sets and both Swampert and Flygon hate Knock Off + poison chip. In my opinion, Swampert is a decent check, but it can be worn down with this combination. However, there are other Pokemon in lower tiers that deal with it quite well.

One of the best is Toxicroak. Toxicroak resists Knock Off and Poison Jab while being immune to poison with its typing. It actually can often use Alolan Muk as setup fodder with Swords Dance, and Drain Punch + Leftovers can let it continually do this over the course of a battle. The only way Alolan Muk can beat it is … Zen Headbutt, which is a very obscure coverage option that is rarely used and if so, only on Assault Vest sets.

There are more Pokemon that beat Alolan Muk too in the lower tiers like Gligar. Gligar easily threatens Alolan Muk with Earthquake and can provide utility to its team with Knock Off, Stealth Rock, Spikes, U-turn, and Toxic. Immunity + Eviolite ensures you take its attacks decently and don't get poisoned. You almost always will lose you item, but even then, you can take its attacks quite comfortably afterwards with its decent bulk.

Physically defensive Milotic is another check that does well into the rest of this tier aswell. You're at worst 4HKOed by offensive Assault Vest Alolan Muk, and with Marvel Scale, you actually welcome poison, as it can help double your defense, letting you eat attacks more easily. On top of this, Scald + Flip Turn lets you threaten burns on it and helps bring in a wallbreaker later if needed.

One check that isn't as explored as the rest of these is Rhydon. While you are susceptible to poison chip, Eviolite lets you take attacks decently before you lose it, and you can take advantage of switches with Stealth Rock and Swords Dance. It also does well into Incineroar, what some people believe to be the best Pokemon in the tier.

I'm happy you brought this up, as Alolan Muk has been one of the most annoying balance breakers because it seems to be able to srick around forever with RestTalk. But, I believe this allows me to shoutout lower tier Pokemon, and say that people should be looking at lower tiers for checks to what we have here.

For example, Toxicroak is annoying to check with the Pokemon in NU, but if you look deeper, there are quite a few good stops to it like Weezing and Colbur Berry Palossand, which can take its attacks quite easily and have extra utility with Will-O-Wisp, Taunt, Toxic Spikes, and Stealth Rock.

There are also plenty of lower tier Pokemon that are just strong wallbreakers, walls, hazard controllers, and pivots in general that nees to be explored more, such as Golurk, Hoopa, Sneasel, Hisuian Sneasel, Tauros-W, Duraludon, Goodra, Salazzle, Mudsdale, Bombirdier, Houndstone, Hisuian Decidueye, Altaria, Cryogonal, Sandslash, Alolan Sandslash, Hisuian Electrode, Bruxish, Scyther, and Flamigo.
 
Im dont know how you guys feel but nu just isn't as fun with muk in the tier. It heavily relies on rng which nerfs it a bit, I guess. Lucario is the only fun mon to use that can switch into it but that gets blown up by drain punch. Registeel just doesn't fit well into many of the balanced teams I prefer and gets chipped super easy. Plume is a cheesy mon that can't even do shit back other than sapping its strength. There is so many more steel and poison types in ru so it would most likely be stuck in bl hell if it gets banned which is unfortunate.

I just hate the amount of teams I scrap because "Ope I don't have a muk switch-in". I'v relied more heavily on sample teams for this tier than any other tier simply because of this pos.

Offense rules in this tier, I get it, and many physical breakers can delete it after a boost, I'm just tired of a perfect flygon sweep or a perfectly healthy physdf pert get ruined by an untimely knock off poison. :changry:
I see what you are saying about Muk-A. While I don't think it is broken you 100% aren't wrong; very few pokemon can take a knock off from amuk and not be punished for it! Knock is already a crazy broken move and when paired with a poison chance it almost always makes progress. Of course amuk folds to hyper offense, so I won't elaborate there any more. I actually think one of the best ways to pressure amuk was with volt turn offense, and sadly our key enabler magnezone rose to RU. Rotom forms are cool but... don't hit the same. I think there is enough counterplay to handle amuk, but it is definitely a threat! Examples list got kinda long so I put it in hide tags! Edit: Jynx PowerOfMemes you owe me a soda!

:toxicroak: Toxicroak
This one is a pretty self explanatory, it resists amuk's dual stab and is immune to poison. It clicks SD in front of it and has a good time! An alternative to the lucario that you mentioned but it doesn't fear drain punch.

:Vileplume:Vileplume
This was mentioned in the original post, but leech seed is a huge annoyance here for amuk and the rest of their team. It can just sit on amuk and chip it down. Does it take it out quickly? No. Can amuk do much about it? Also no.

:brambleghast::munkidori: Lures
Now these two may not seem like amuk counterplay, but both of these can run terablast ground and do some serious damage to amuk here. (terablast ground bramble also hits incin which is very nice as well right now.) Sure fake EQ is expensive to go for, but that cost is also what makes amuk want to stay in!

:chandelure::Sylveon::porygon-z::toxtricity: Strong Specs Users
:chandelure: 252 SpA Choice Specs Chandelure Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Muk-Alola: 211-249 (50.9 - 60.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
:sylveon: 252+ SpA Choice Specs Pixilate Sylveon Hyper Voice vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Muk-Alola: 186-220 (44.9 - 53.1%) -- 89.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
:porygon-z: (also works with a download boost of course) 252 SpA Choice Specs Adaptability Porygon-Z Tri Attack vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Muk-Alola: 194-230 (46.8 - 55.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
:toxtricity: 252+ SpA Choice Specs Punk Rock Toxtricity Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Muk-Alola: 214-252 (51.6 - 60.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

:Gligar::Swampert::Mudsdale::Gastrodon::Flygon: Ground Types
Gligar doesn't enjoy losing eviolite but it is immune to poison, threatens it with eq and is still bulky enough to take it on after. Flygon is amazing offensive counterplay as you have mentioned, but it takes a million from knock (even without the poison). While krook was a monster in its own right, it would be nice to have it for the amuk matchup specifically. Mudsdale and pert (and most other bulky grounds) don't take much damage but get annoyed by the poison chance. Gastrodon is typically the same story but it can also run covert cloak and sticky hold. This way it always takes the weak damage from knock and is always immune to the poison chances! I'm not sure if thats the best gastrodon set, but it is neat.

:Tauros-paldea-water::tauros-paldea-fire::incineroar: Knock Resists (with intimidate!)
Tauros forms are strong right now (especially the water one), and these take 0 from knock off. The problem again is they can be annoyed by the poison chance like the bulky grounds mentioned above. Incin functions similarly and can blow amuk back as well, but it dislikes losing boots even more since it is weak to rocks.

:cresselia::bronzong::slowbro-galar::registeel: Bulky Setup (with tera poison)
Cresselia, bronzong, and glowbro can flip the matchup and set up on amuk with tera poison. Bronzong is a better mon has a better matchup here since body press is more threatening than moonblast. Similarly glowbro has more power than cress and can do good damage with coverage. Registeel can just set up on amuk but can get chipped by drain punches (if it is running that) before it gets going with he bhoosts. There are probably more mons that fit into this category but you get the idea here.
 
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I actually do really love croak as a mon in nu after trying it out for the first time yesterday. It has a really weird combination of traits and movepool options that liven up teambuilding for sure. Gligar and strong specs users are great answers to muk that I didn't think about. However the tauros forms are generally twice as better with their items (choice or lefties), and the bulky setup options can be shut down by haze.

Milotic, mudsdale, and gastro just don't do it for me, being too slow and passive, and with cress, steel, plume, and lug outclassing them bulk wise. Thanks for the feedback its always interesting seeing ways people build around the meta.

(Also banning flygon would be the worst desicion in pokemon tiering history, don't touch my boy I'm begging you)
 
Hi everyone. The NU Council has held one final Council Slate to address the few remaining hot button topics that the community has brought up. This will be the last slate we hold until the next major tier shift, as we now plan on moving forward into suspect testing / retesting as the tier has established and is getting to a quite enjoyable and balanced state. The results are as follows!

NbZt17x.png


Thus, Cloyster and Lucario are both banned from SV NU via a council majority! Marty dhelmise

It is entirely possible that we revisit some of these Pokemon at a later date (Lucario in particular), however for the time being they have been deemed as too oppressive for the meta, and have been banned. We'd love to hear your feedback on the tier following these two bans, as I know a lot of people have been expressing their disdain for Cloy and Lucario. Will Hyper Offense fall off the map entirely? Will Webs go back to being the premier offensive structure of the tier? Will Grassy Terrain overthrow Psychic Terrains popularity now? Stay tuned for more information in the coming weeks, as the council will be discussing the option of a Gallade suspect test. That's all for now, Lucario banners can finally rejoice.
 
I stand by my words, I believe they were accurate 3 months ago before so many other brokens were banned :)

Yeah yeah I'm just joking and tbf, back then, I didn't think that Gallade was ban-worthy either, but considering that some bans or some RU rises were bound to happen sooner or later, that was just a comment about some possible future developments of a borderline-broken mon that could become effectively broken
 
Hello, Zamansky here, would like to share my point of view on what's happening : I feel like the banning process has reached a critical point.

Almost all the Bans have been focused on Offensive Stallbreak mons. Even :deoxys-defense: and :suicune: can be considered as Stallbreak Slow Set-Up Sweepers.

This constant banning of offensive threats is resulting in the tier becoming more stall oriented and plagged by the three eevolution. :umbreon: :sylveon: :vaporeon:

New pokemons like :gallade: and :cinccino: are emerging as problematic only because they are the last viable StallBreakers left. The ban of :lucario: and :cloyster: was probably too much (I almost never used them and never found them problematic).

It has come to the point where :flygon: is being suspected repeatdly despite probably being the most healthy and least problematic pokemon for the tier. (Sorry PowerOfMemes but no, Flygon is not a StallBreaker)

In my opinion, this ban process has to be either stopped or reversed before the meta becomes catastrophic.
If this continues, it will probably end up becoming a Rock-Paper-Scissor between Balanced-Stall-StallBreak.

Love and shout out to my bro Vaporeonds.
 
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Spiny-Z, While some of the recent bans may have been to Pokemon great a destroying walls (Feraligatr, Deoxys-D, and Lucario, to an extent), they also destroyed offensive teams similarly. Feraligatr only needed one turn with Dragon Dance to finish off teams with Sheer Force- and Life Orb-boosted attacks (not to mention how Swords Dance Aqua Jet wasn't fun to take either), Deoxys-D only needed to start setting up against something like Mienshao locked into Close Combat and from there could accumulate more boosts easily, not letting itself be broken through, and Lucario's Extreme Speed was a pain to take on without Tera Ghost / Tera Steel on an offensive Pokemon.

Also, these slow stallbreaking Pokemon should be banned, as they limit the builder to have to run more offensive teams because bulkier ones are just completely invalidated by these Pokemons' existence. Technically, a metagame can be more offensive, and that's fair in the policy's eyes. But, if there are Pokemon that make entire playstyles unplayable or greatly hinder team archetypes that’d be completely fine otherwise, then that Pokemon is an issue. As an example, UU recently suspected and banned Ursaluna because of how it made bulky teams nearly impossible to use. Now, the tier has become less offensive and more playstyles (and therefore diversity) are present and viable, which is a definite positive. On top of that, a bulkier metagame is just as fine (please, note I said bulkier not stall, as true stall metagames are very rare); there have been many tiers that've drifted this way like SS NU and GSC OU, which is completely fine. However, if you prefer this style or not, is personal preference.

Strong wallbreakers such as these Pokemon that have no good counterplay that fit on a variety of teams and are viable isn't healthy for any metagame, so I'm happy with these bans and how they free up the possibility for me to run more teams that are viable. Obviously, there's a point where too many teams/things are way too viable, but at least at the point we're at now, that definitely isn't an issue.

TL;DR - These “stallbreakers” destroyed offensive and defensive teams alike with either no good switch-ins or, in Deoxys-D’s case, no way to be broken through. Because of these bans freeing up the builder, more variety, creativity, and playstyles are becoming possible and more viable. Also, having to run one or two playstyles, an otherwise ass Pokemon—like Scream Tail to check Gallade (I will do a Gallade post whenever suspect comes out), or Terastallize to have a chance at beating something at all tells you how balanced it is.
 
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