Why is Greninja relevant here? Lets like not talk about it please lol. Landorus may have a good amount of switch ins but literally every one is hit by coverage and either OHKOed if they're faster or 2HKOed if they're slower, so... eh. What was the point of Mew? It got 2HKOed by Earth Power, you want to switch to a Flying? Rock Slide might body that. Also some forms of Landorus run more Attack on Rock Slide...
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np: ORAS OU Suspect Process, Round 4 - Genie in a bottle
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I'm glad you read my post and understand what I was overreacting. I stated very early in my argument that in this scenario my opponent is using latias/cress as a counter, so he lacks a way to deal with landorus-I[/quote]
But ou is made for checks, not counters, so good players will have one.
But ou is made for checks, not counters, so good players will have one.
I'm debunking the greninja comparison argument. Mew is something with 100 in all stats just as a reference calc. If lando runs more attack on rock slide, more attack on greninja will make the gap even bigger since greninja has a lower attack stat than lando.
Where was this Greninja comparison exactly? I don't remember seeing it... (Although this thread is pretty much hate now so idc...)
Although that comparison is pretty stupid tbh. If people want to make it at least have something that shows merit to the comparison before posting about it. At least Lando has boosting moves too. n-n.
ok so i'm not going to really bother to read through the entire thread and quote and pick at every single post (yet), so instead i'm just going to offer my thoughts on lando-i and maybe some counters to the typical arguments used.
ban landorus.
so why do i want to ban landorus? i think a lot of it has already been stated in this thread prior in different wording, but i do believe that landorus-i is just as broken in BW as it is in XY. landorus-i is, without a doubt, the best balance breaker in the entire OU metagame. landorus-i is a better breaker than any mega in the game flat out. without any boosts lando-i still retains incredible amounts of power, and it doesn't help that it takes 0 damage from life orb, and all it's attacks are boosted up by sheer force. lando-i is balances worst nightmare pretty much. fast enough to beat the majority of pokemon on balance, bulky enough to survive a few hits, and strong enough to ohko or 2hko anything that comes in it's way. while landorus is not nearly as good vs offense as it is vs balance, it can still destroy offense if it gets the chance to RP, or predicts correctly and nails something with a focus blast, swave, or hp ice (or whatever other coverage move). landorus is no questions asked an amazing pokemon.
a lot of the anti-ban posts here revolve around the same few arguments: landorus has checks AND counters which can fit on a variety of teams / it has a bad speed tier / without team support lando-i can't break it's counters.
landorus-i has about 1 actual counter. remember dpp mixmence? yeah, lando-i is like that. the only pokemon that can consistently beat lando-i and switch into it over and over without much worry is mega latias, who doesn't care much about HP Ice. outside of that i really cannot think of any pokemon that can consistently switch into and beat landorus-i.
onto checks, a lot of the typical lando-i checks really are not that great. you have...
rotom-w - which i think is a really shitty pokemon in general, but aside from my personal hatred of it, rotom-w can't switch into shit unless it is full sdef, and even then it still takes a ton from focus blast / sludge wave. rotom-w typically runs a physically bulky spread in this metagame though, so these attacks are going to do even more. rotom-w can really only come in on earth power, hp ice, and rock slide, and if it is weakened even just a bit, it isn't going to be able to tank more than 1 attack of lando. it gets hit once on a prediction, or gets hit and lando switches out, the ability to check landorus fades away.
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-W: 191-226 (63 - 74.5%)
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Sludge Wave vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-W: 153-181 (50.4 - 59.7%)
lati@s - when latias isn't mega, it is a very shaky switch to lando-i. for a pokemon that is so often paired with pursuit, it really is at risk every single time it switches in. latios takes a ton from both sludge wave and hp ice, and if it gets hit with a knock off it is essentially screwed.
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Sludge Wave vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Latios: 148-175 (49.4 - 58.5%)
0 Atk Life Orb Landorus Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latios: 265-312 (88.6 - 104.3%)
252 SpA Life Orb Landorus Hidden Power Ice vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Latios: 146-172 (48.8 - 57.5%)
latios is basically forced to roost if it gets hit even just once by HP ice or swave, and it is pretty much dead if it gets smacked by a knock off. latias on the other hand can tank these attacks easier (but not that much easier, only a bit), but is a little easier to pursuit due to her weaker offensive stats. the two most commonly used lando-i checks pretty much, these two, while good initial switches, can have their momentum killed by a simple prediction, or simply be pursuited by a teammate.
tornadus-t: probably the "best" lando check, torn-t can switch into pretty much everything lando-i can throw at it and manage to re generator it off, for the most part. although then again, hp ice and swave both do around 35-41, nullifying regen, especially when compounded with rocks / sand if they are on the field. oh, and did i mention that torn-t gets destroyed by rock slide?
0 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Rock Slide vs. 128 HP / 0 Def Tornadus-T: 268-317 (80.9 - 95.7%)
tornadus CAN for the most part consistently switch in, but you're still taking quite a bit from a swave or hp ice if you get hit by it.
zapdos - lol come on. i guess sdef zapdos is an OK check? but don't you kinda lose the merit of being able to beat scizor, talonflame, pinsir, etc consistently by switching to full sdef?
cresselia - are you people being serious here?
chansey - chansey only fits on one team archetype in ORAS, and even though it can tank a focus blast, chansey has always been insanely easy to pressure, especially if sand / hazards are on the field. it also doesn't help chansey that it can potentially be knocked off and lose it's top tier defenses, or that it can take 32-38% from a focus blast from a lando-i.
that is what you got pretty much check / counter wise, which really isn't all that much considering that most of them are shaky at best in what they do.
onto my next point, lando-i does not have a bad speed tier. sure it is not hitting 350+ speed or anything crazy like that, but it is certainly fast enough that it can outrun a decent majority of the metagame and do damage to pretty much every part of it. lando-i doesn't need to be crazy fast to beat the shit out of balance or slower teams, all it really needs is 100 base speed and it is good to go. i guess it can be outsped and killed by a bunch of pokemon, which is probably your point, but the fact of the matter is that most of those pokemon are going to have a very hard time just outright switching into lando-i.
and of course, there is always the argument that "well lando needs TEAM SUPPORT!!!!!!!!!!" yeah, we get it. most of the time landorus is not going to be outright 6-0ing teams from team preview, but neither is stuff like ho-oh or rayquaza. of all the pokemon that need team support to do heavy damage, landorus needs the least. you need to basically pair one thing with it, a pursuiter. you have quite a few options for this as well, ttar, bisharp, weavile, hell even scizor can be used. every single pokemon needs team support to do well, lando is not an exception. but that team support is very minimal and typically will succeed in it's job of eliminating stuff that gives lando-i trouble (latias).
i guess what i'm trying to get at here is that lando-i is completely broken. it restricts team building a lot as well, which really isn't a thing that we need in ORAS at this point in the metagame. you basically are forced into a rigid archetype if you're using balance, one in which you basically must have at least 2 lando checks in order to get by. if landorus is banned, i can guarantee the metagame will be far different than it was prior. teams won't need to be as rigid (they still will not counter everything because it's oras lol), and i'm sure variety in balance / defensively oriented teams will begin to expand. remember how bad BW was when lando-i was in the metagame, and how it improved drastically once it was removed? hopefully the same can be said about xy.
EDIT: quote my post and argue with me you anti-ban bastards
ban landorus.
so why do i want to ban landorus? i think a lot of it has already been stated in this thread prior in different wording, but i do believe that landorus-i is just as broken in BW as it is in XY. landorus-i is, without a doubt, the best balance breaker in the entire OU metagame. landorus-i is a better breaker than any mega in the game flat out. without any boosts lando-i still retains incredible amounts of power, and it doesn't help that it takes 0 damage from life orb, and all it's attacks are boosted up by sheer force. lando-i is balances worst nightmare pretty much. fast enough to beat the majority of pokemon on balance, bulky enough to survive a few hits, and strong enough to ohko or 2hko anything that comes in it's way. while landorus is not nearly as good vs offense as it is vs balance, it can still destroy offense if it gets the chance to RP, or predicts correctly and nails something with a focus blast, swave, or hp ice (or whatever other coverage move). landorus is no questions asked an amazing pokemon.
a lot of the anti-ban posts here revolve around the same few arguments: landorus has checks AND counters which can fit on a variety of teams / it has a bad speed tier / without team support lando-i can't break it's counters.
landorus-i has about 1 actual counter. remember dpp mixmence? yeah, lando-i is like that. the only pokemon that can consistently beat lando-i and switch into it over and over without much worry is mega latias, who doesn't care much about HP Ice. outside of that i really cannot think of any pokemon that can consistently switch into and beat landorus-i.
onto checks, a lot of the typical lando-i checks really are not that great. you have...
rotom-w - which i think is a really shitty pokemon in general, but aside from my personal hatred of it, rotom-w can't switch into shit unless it is full sdef, and even then it still takes a ton from focus blast / sludge wave. rotom-w typically runs a physically bulky spread in this metagame though, so these attacks are going to do even more. rotom-w can really only come in on earth power, hp ice, and rock slide, and if it is weakened even just a bit, it isn't going to be able to tank more than 1 attack of lando. it gets hit once on a prediction, or gets hit and lando switches out, the ability to check landorus fades away.
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-W: 191-226 (63 - 74.5%)
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Sludge Wave vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-W: 153-181 (50.4 - 59.7%)
lati@s - when latias isn't mega, it is a very shaky switch to lando-i. for a pokemon that is so often paired with pursuit, it really is at risk every single time it switches in. latios takes a ton from both sludge wave and hp ice, and if it gets hit with a knock off it is essentially screwed.
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Sludge Wave vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Latios: 148-175 (49.4 - 58.5%)
0 Atk Life Orb Landorus Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latios: 265-312 (88.6 - 104.3%)
252 SpA Life Orb Landorus Hidden Power Ice vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Latios: 146-172 (48.8 - 57.5%)
latios is basically forced to roost if it gets hit even just once by HP ice or swave, and it is pretty much dead if it gets smacked by a knock off. latias on the other hand can tank these attacks easier (but not that much easier, only a bit), but is a little easier to pursuit due to her weaker offensive stats. the two most commonly used lando-i checks pretty much, these two, while good initial switches, can have their momentum killed by a simple prediction, or simply be pursuited by a teammate.
tornadus-t: probably the "best" lando check, torn-t can switch into pretty much everything lando-i can throw at it and manage to re generator it off, for the most part. although then again, hp ice and swave both do around 35-41, nullifying regen, especially when compounded with rocks / sand if they are on the field. oh, and did i mention that torn-t gets destroyed by rock slide?
0 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Rock Slide vs. 128 HP / 0 Def Tornadus-T: 268-317 (80.9 - 95.7%)
tornadus CAN for the most part consistently switch in, but you're still taking quite a bit from a swave or hp ice if you get hit by it.
zapdos - lol come on. i guess sdef zapdos is an OK check? but don't you kinda lose the merit of being able to beat scizor, talonflame, pinsir, etc consistently by switching to full sdef?
cresselia - are you people being serious here?
chansey - chansey only fits on one team archetype in ORAS, and even though it can tank a focus blast, chansey has always been insanely easy to pressure, especially if sand / hazards are on the field. it also doesn't help chansey that it can potentially be knocked off and lose it's top tier defenses, or that it can take 32-38% from a focus blast from a lando-i.
that is what you got pretty much check / counter wise, which really isn't all that much considering that most of them are shaky at best in what they do.
onto my next point, lando-i does not have a bad speed tier. sure it is not hitting 350+ speed or anything crazy like that, but it is certainly fast enough that it can outrun a decent majority of the metagame and do damage to pretty much every part of it. lando-i doesn't need to be crazy fast to beat the shit out of balance or slower teams, all it really needs is 100 base speed and it is good to go. i guess it can be outsped and killed by a bunch of pokemon, which is probably your point, but the fact of the matter is that most of those pokemon are going to have a very hard time just outright switching into lando-i.
and of course, there is always the argument that "well lando needs TEAM SUPPORT!!!!!!!!!!" yeah, we get it. most of the time landorus is not going to be outright 6-0ing teams from team preview, but neither is stuff like ho-oh or rayquaza. of all the pokemon that need team support to do heavy damage, landorus needs the least. you need to basically pair one thing with it, a pursuiter. you have quite a few options for this as well, ttar, bisharp, weavile, hell even scizor can be used. every single pokemon needs team support to do well, lando is not an exception. but that team support is very minimal and typically will succeed in it's job of eliminating stuff that gives lando-i trouble (latias).
i guess what i'm trying to get at here is that lando-i is completely broken. it restricts team building a lot as well, which really isn't a thing that we need in ORAS at this point in the metagame. you basically are forced into a rigid archetype if you're using balance, one in which you basically must have at least 2 lando checks in order to get by. if landorus is banned, i can guarantee the metagame will be far different than it was prior. teams won't need to be as rigid (they still will not counter everything because it's oras lol), and i'm sure variety in balance / defensively oriented teams will begin to expand. remember how bad BW was when lando-i was in the metagame, and how it improved drastically once it was removed? hopefully the same can be said about xy.
EDIT: quote my post and argue with me you anti-ban bastards
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hello everyone. long time lurker here and just joined Smogon so I would like to give a little bit of input on the matter. it seems like all the anti-ban arguments have something in common and that is a short list of checks and counters. from what i've seen, everyone who thinks Landorus should remain in overused has said at one point or another "yes cresselia and mega latias are counters yes yes tornadus-t is a check so put these on your team and you'll be fine" but here's the thing: that's the definition of restrictive teambuilding. which is exactly what landorus does for the game. if you dont want to lose to landorus, put one of those on your team, according to anti-banners. uh. you're just solidifying the argument ive seen that landorus makes teambuilding difficult. if someone has to use a whole pokemon on their 6-pokemon team just to check 1 pokemon out of like 500 infinity billion then it most definitely deserves a ban. i came from gamefaqs and even most of us think that landorus deserves a ban. i'd really like to see some better anti-ban arguments if you're going to vote to keep this unhealthy monster in the metagame that we all want to enjoy.
I'm probably going to say No Ban. First of all, it is either used to Offense or Stall. the same set cannot do both. Its coverage is generally limited to Earth Power, Sludge Bomb, Filler (Focus Blast, Psychic, any HP) , and Rock Polish OR Calm Mind.
As said earlier, it dies to the common priorities, Aqua Jet and Ice Shard. Not to mention the many lures for this Pokemon with HP[ice] or Ice Beam being run on Scarf-Heatran and Mixed Tyranatar. Without boosting common Pokemon can hit is with hard a SpA.
It is even further hampered by the rise of Latias (Mega), Cressilia, Slowking, and Suicune.
As said earlier, it dies to the common priorities, Aqua Jet and Ice Shard. Not to mention the many lures for this Pokemon with HP[ice] or Ice Beam being run on Scarf-Heatran and Mixed Tyranatar. Without boosting common Pokemon can hit is with hard a SpA.
It is even further hampered by the rise of Latias (Mega), Cressilia, Slowking, and Suicune.
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Couldn't you stop and think for a moment that the reason those are common now is because of Landorus-I being a relevant threat? Aqua Jet was always a thing with Azumarill being high up there but oml a move that's super effective does heavy dmg. This applies for all broken mons. It runs 4 attacks to break balance as well, so idk where you're getting that from. It can clean up offense with Rock Polish that is not used to break stall or balanced cores. It has a plethora of moves such as Knock Off, Hidden Power [Ice], Sludge Wave, Psychic, Focus Blast, Rock Slide, etc. to hit many of its checks and reduce them to just fodder. And again, the rise of Slowking, Cress, Latias-M, and Suicune could also be attributed to this thing being over centralizing for this metagame. You're actually providing more solid reasons for its ban. Let me say that with Sheer Force and Life Orb it effectively has a Choice Specs with no drawbacks. (Actually it's like 1.6 or something but simplifying is nice.) Unboosted, not a lot hits as hard as it since it basically has a free +1.
point 1 rebuttal: okay seriously can you explain how it can only break either stall or balance but not both? i think you might have meant to say that it breaks balance and stall or beats offense because landorus is already amazing vs stall and balance because it outspeeds the majority of those teams. with knock off or calm mind landorus is a one mon stampede that just stomps all over balance and stall. in that case, yes it can be revenge killed easily by offense because its speed tier is mediocre. but if your team struggles with offense, use rock polish and find a moment to set up and you're sweeping through entire teams that lack multiple forms of priority. so the correct statement, i think, is: you have a choice to winbutton vs balance and stall or winbutton vs offense. and thats a reason to keep landorus in ou? oh so horrible landorus isnt broken at all.
point 2 rebuttal: 252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Landorus: 260-308 (81.5 - 96.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
and thats a choice band version when most people seem to be using belly drum. and landorus doesnt even have any hp investment. rock polish versions dont need all that speed so they tend to run more bulk. and how is ice beam mixed ttar a good lure if landorus just one shots even bulky versions with focus blast in sand?
point 3 rebuttal: how do you even know that mega latias and cresselia and slowking have "risen"? where can you see how much pokemon are used? and can you show me where it says that cresselia and slowking are being used more? because i rarely ever see either of those. mega latias i mean yeah ive seen a bit more of but i think thats because people are realizing how good it is.
Guys i'm pretty sure most people understand how typing works, so stating "ice shard kills or my scald from keldeo kills", yes , we understand that super effective moves kill . its not a secret. if we based on typing then ho oh would not be ubers due to being weak to stealth rocks. We have to judge based on how the pokemon affects the meta from a teambuilding standpoint as well as an in-game stand point. Lando-I moveset is gonna based on what synergizes best with its teammates. Yes lando can't run every single move, but it can be utilized based on how it fits best with the rest of the team. If i feel it needs rock coverage because the team needs more against flying types, then it will run Rock Slide. If you have problems with skarmory, then run Focus Blast. THats what makes Lando dangerous. It doesn't have one basic moveset, it can preform a variety of roles as well as a variety of coverage to take on the combination of mons that seems fitting except the two mons that have already been stressed throughout this thread. Running (for example) spdef zapdos will cover SOME Lando-i's , but not ALL.
Also i've seen examples that "oh it doesn't Ohko X mon so it can revenge kill it" . obviously Lando isn't going to lead the game and 6-0 your opponents entire team . If it was it would be banned a long time ago. You bring it on a monster you can kill so you are forcing your opponent to sac that mon or switching out to a mon that in fear that if they get predicted that they will lose that mon. This is not "oh ill predict whatever play you make " scenerio, because predictions can go both ways. The point of the statement is to show how Lando vast coverage can cause, because unless you have mega latias or cresselia, there is no 100% guaranteed you will have a safe switch in to an attack .
Also i've seen examples that "oh it doesn't Ohko X mon so it can revenge kill it" . obviously Lando isn't going to lead the game and 6-0 your opponents entire team . If it was it would be banned a long time ago. You bring it on a monster you can kill so you are forcing your opponent to sac that mon or switching out to a mon that in fear that if they get predicted that they will lose that mon. This is not "oh ill predict whatever play you make " scenerio, because predictions can go both ways. The point of the statement is to show how Lando vast coverage can cause, because unless you have mega latias or cresselia, there is no 100% guaranteed you will have a safe switch in to an attack .
I'm going to have to say that Landorus is not worthy of a ban from the OU metagame for several reasons. Most of these arguments will involve diminishing the arguments of the pro-ban players, simply because of the fact that the burden of proof is on the pro-ban side.
Landorus is not a large contributor to matchup issues: This sort of has to do with my theory of the matchup issue in general, which is that this issue is largely caused by the players' team selection, and not necessarily the state of the metagame. The kind of teams that Landorus beats, the slower ones, are inherently susceptible to matchup. If a team is largely based around slow walls that perform in a reactionary way, it is obvious that they are going to have overwhelming matchup issues. In addition to this, bulkier teams cause longer games, which makes each turn less meaningful to the outcome of the game. The individual plays that are made in a game with slow teams have a small impact on the game as a whole when compared to matchup. Matchup is simply a much larger factor than plays when it comes to these kinds of teams. The playerbase needs to accept that the problem stems from their own choices, not from pokemon like Landorus.
Landorus has the potential to beat all of its checks (besides two), but can not beat all of them at once and is easy to revenge kill: A lot of people like to say that Landorus is too good versus every style, and that it can sweep and wallbreak at the same time, but this is just untrue. While Rock Polish sets have the potential to sweep, using this move makes Landorus a much worse wallbreaker. Limiting it to only three attacking moves greatly hinders its breaking capabilities, and allows many checks to be consistent. In addition to this, Rock Polish does not even beat offense that easily. Firstly, Landorus does not have many opportunities to set up versus offense. Many common offensive pokemon, such as Keldeo, Weavile, Thundurus, and Latios, all easily prevent set up and revenge kill Landorus. Saying that Landorus is anything better than mediocre versus offense is just untrue. Landorus does not have the raw speed or bulk to withstand offensive threats. As far as wallbreaking goes, Landorus is somewhat overrated. Keep in mind that this is not to say that Landorus is not a great wallbreaker. It is true that Landorus has fantastic raw power and coverage, but people often mistake potential success for actual success. There are plenty of prevalent pokemon that naturally defensively check many Landorus sets, such as Chansey, Gliscor, Spdef Gyara, Lati@s, Skarmory, Slowking, Torn-T, Cresselia, and other less common ones. It is also true that Landorus can potentially beat all of these pokemon with viable coverage options, but it is impossible to beat all of them with one moveset. Scouting is a very natural, competitive part of pokemon battling and should not be dismissed as an unhealthy aspect. Sometimes scouting is just unnecessary because a team could have more than one Landorus check, and thus will likely not lose to a single set. This leads me to my next point.
Landorus does not restrict teambuilding to an unhealthy extent: As I just stated, Landorus checks are naturally on competitive OverUsed teams. Pokemon like Gliscor, Lati@s, Skarmory, and Torn-T are all very viable in this OU metagame and are thus very common. Very often one could build an OU team and happen to have Landorus checks as is. Even if the aforementioned scenario does not occur, taking threats into account when teambuilding is very natural. Landorus does not restrict building any more than lets say, Bisharp or Keldeo. Having to double check to make sure one has a Landorus switchin is no different from having to check for an (insert different offensive mon here) switchin.
TL;DR: Read the bold. The playerbase needs to take some responsibility and accept that they are the cause for the "problems" that are allegedly caused by Landorus. Landorus is not the culprit of these issues, and the aforementioned points prove this.
Landorus is not a large contributor to matchup issues: This sort of has to do with my theory of the matchup issue in general, which is that this issue is largely caused by the players' team selection, and not necessarily the state of the metagame. The kind of teams that Landorus beats, the slower ones, are inherently susceptible to matchup. If a team is largely based around slow walls that perform in a reactionary way, it is obvious that they are going to have overwhelming matchup issues. In addition to this, bulkier teams cause longer games, which makes each turn less meaningful to the outcome of the game. The individual plays that are made in a game with slow teams have a small impact on the game as a whole when compared to matchup. Matchup is simply a much larger factor than plays when it comes to these kinds of teams. The playerbase needs to accept that the problem stems from their own choices, not from pokemon like Landorus.
Landorus has the potential to beat all of its checks (besides two), but can not beat all of them at once and is easy to revenge kill: A lot of people like to say that Landorus is too good versus every style, and that it can sweep and wallbreak at the same time, but this is just untrue. While Rock Polish sets have the potential to sweep, using this move makes Landorus a much worse wallbreaker. Limiting it to only three attacking moves greatly hinders its breaking capabilities, and allows many checks to be consistent. In addition to this, Rock Polish does not even beat offense that easily. Firstly, Landorus does not have many opportunities to set up versus offense. Many common offensive pokemon, such as Keldeo, Weavile, Thundurus, and Latios, all easily prevent set up and revenge kill Landorus. Saying that Landorus is anything better than mediocre versus offense is just untrue. Landorus does not have the raw speed or bulk to withstand offensive threats. As far as wallbreaking goes, Landorus is somewhat overrated. Keep in mind that this is not to say that Landorus is not a great wallbreaker. It is true that Landorus has fantastic raw power and coverage, but people often mistake potential success for actual success. There are plenty of prevalent pokemon that naturally defensively check many Landorus sets, such as Chansey, Gliscor, Spdef Gyara, Lati@s, Skarmory, Slowking, Torn-T, Cresselia, and other less common ones. It is also true that Landorus can potentially beat all of these pokemon with viable coverage options, but it is impossible to beat all of them with one moveset. Scouting is a very natural, competitive part of pokemon battling and should not be dismissed as an unhealthy aspect. Sometimes scouting is just unnecessary because a team could have more than one Landorus check, and thus will likely not lose to a single set. This leads me to my next point.
Landorus does not restrict teambuilding to an unhealthy extent: As I just stated, Landorus checks are naturally on competitive OverUsed teams. Pokemon like Gliscor, Lati@s, Skarmory, and Torn-T are all very viable in this OU metagame and are thus very common. Very often one could build an OU team and happen to have Landorus checks as is. Even if the aforementioned scenario does not occur, taking threats into account when teambuilding is very natural. Landorus does not restrict building any more than lets say, Bisharp or Keldeo. Having to double check to make sure one has a Landorus switchin is no different from having to check for an (insert different offensive mon here) switchin.
TL;DR: Read the bold. The playerbase needs to take some responsibility and accept that they are the cause for the "problems" that are allegedly caused by Landorus. Landorus is not the culprit of these issues, and the aforementioned points prove this.
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You can not build a team of six to cover all the weakness in a single metagame. If that was possible the person who did that would be a god. Matchup in ORAS OU is a big problem and a mon like Landorus causes a big time issue in teambuilding. Continuing with that, the state of the metagame has a big influence on what the player decides to bring on his or her team. If a threat that beats the entire metagame is around players will bring mons to attempt to stop it. The player base understands that the problem stems from the pokemon not their choices which is why we need to ban this monster.
That argument isn't why lando is banworthy, banning any arbitrary mon or two fixes matchup. We aren't talking about other potential suspects in this thread.
Oh no of course I understand that, but I was just pointing out the flaw in his argument by reminding him that matchup is a problem with most of the mons that are suspected.
The problem with scouting Landorus is of a similar nature (though maybe not magnitude) to what was up with scouting Aegislash: Landorus's different sets are generally optimized for different things without losing effectiveness against his "consistent" victims. In the time it takes to scout Landorus, he is very capable of doing serious damage to your team and check, even if it happens to be the right check.
More to the point, this would mean having at minimum 2 things that could check Landorus: One that checks him for all but one or two moves/sets (Say, Tornadus-T checks sets without KO or Rock Slide), and then something that can check him for those two options (say, Magnet Rise Klefki? This is a very hasty example so I can continue my point). So that's two checks needed. This doesn't seem like the biggest demand considering things like Altaria and even Metagross are also best handled like this, but Landorus is not only much easier to throw on a team, but on top of having a relatively small pool of checks, only Stall immediately has multiple fitting Pokemon that could check his sets without fearing similar options (M Latias/Cresselia + SpD Zapdos, for instance): offense has Tornadus-T and the Latis, but both fear Knock Off (not to mention the former hates Rock Slide); Balance has trouble with mix and matching these types of answers since the defensive answers tend to be passive, but they can't stack offensive answers since they need utility mons and/or defensive backbone of some kind.
Landorus's pool of checks is too sparse and unevenly distributed to allow any playstyle but stall to answer him completely and consistently; any other just has to hope he doesn't get the momentum he needs to wear out the right check or sweep right through the wrong one, which is a tall order considering Landorus requires relatively little support to do his given job.
My issue here is the fact that while you did denote these as defensive (though I think the Latis and Torn-T are offensive moreso), every check you listed bar those I noted are either incredibly slow, relatively passive, and prone to wearing out/lack reliable recovery. And Landorus isn't even working in a vacuum. You note it's unnecessary to scout just because the team has more than one Landorus check. Ignoring my query above about multiple Landorus checks that don't stack the same coverage weakness, Landorus isn't hard to support. Pursuit trapping was one example, but another thing to note is that your entire list bar Cresselia (the most passive example) can be beaten by, say, mixed Thundurus for example, and Double Genie cores have indeed been a thing since XY. So the opponent can stack as many Landorus checks as they choose, and I can still get by them with one mon for support, if I even need that much depending on my Landorus set.
Landorus isn't as hard pressed to get Rock Polish off as you make him out to be. While not walling anything, his bulk does require a good offensive hit to OHKO him, usually a SE one at that
252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Iron Head vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Landorus: 211-250 (66.1 - 78.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Landorus: 232-274 (72.7 - 85.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Pixilate Mega Altaria Return vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Landorus: 232-274 (72.7 - 85.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
And Landorus only needs to survive that one hit to get his boost and sweep through the team in the mid-late game when he goes to work. I noted earlier Landorus's SpA with Sheer Force + LO is the equivalent of invested Base 228, which is higher than any wallbreaking Mega. However, that was with a neutral nature. Rock Polish sets run Positive offense natures, which actually means they will hit harder than most sets without set up.
The result of this is that Landorus's offense match-up set doesn't sacrifice his match up with balance/stall: If the opponent lacks a check to the 3 Attack set you chose, it might make him better since he's dishing harder blows and defensive mons aren't fast enough for the drop from Modest to impact his speed (which is 1 point below Jolly Excadrill, still decent for wallbreaking). I think the reason Rock Polish is more common than CM is because unlike CM, Rock Polish doesn't immediately trail behind the other sets against its non-favored playstyle, but rather has potential to perform as well if not better. It's not even like Landorus matchs up poorly against offense without Rock Polish, just that Rock Polish is his best set against it; without it, the slower wallbreakers still have to stomach the strong blows since the faster members can't switch in but have to be ready to revenge. It just means Landorus won't be sweeping through the team, which isn't even necessarily his job in the first place: the RP set CAN do that as another benefit, but I have had games where it did not need to do that to be a major factor in my win.
More to the point, this would mean having at minimum 2 things that could check Landorus: One that checks him for all but one or two moves/sets (Say, Tornadus-T checks sets without KO or Rock Slide), and then something that can check him for those two options (say, Magnet Rise Klefki? This is a very hasty example so I can continue my point). So that's two checks needed. This doesn't seem like the biggest demand considering things like Altaria and even Metagross are also best handled like this, but Landorus is not only much easier to throw on a team, but on top of having a relatively small pool of checks, only Stall immediately has multiple fitting Pokemon that could check his sets without fearing similar options (M Latias/Cresselia + SpD Zapdos, for instance): offense has Tornadus-T and the Latis, but both fear Knock Off (not to mention the former hates Rock Slide); Balance has trouble with mix and matching these types of answers since the defensive answers tend to be passive, but they can't stack offensive answers since they need utility mons and/or defensive backbone of some kind.
Landorus's pool of checks is too sparse and unevenly distributed to allow any playstyle but stall to answer him completely and consistently; any other just has to hope he doesn't get the momentum he needs to wear out the right check or sweep right through the wrong one, which is a tall order considering Landorus requires relatively little support to do his given job.
My issue here is the fact that while you did denote these as defensive (though I think the Latis and Torn-T are offensive moreso), every check you listed bar those I noted are either incredibly slow, relatively passive, and prone to wearing out/lack reliable recovery. And Landorus isn't even working in a vacuum. You note it's unnecessary to scout just because the team has more than one Landorus check. Ignoring my query above about multiple Landorus checks that don't stack the same coverage weakness, Landorus isn't hard to support. Pursuit trapping was one example, but another thing to note is that your entire list bar Cresselia (the most passive example) can be beaten by, say, mixed Thundurus for example, and Double Genie cores have indeed been a thing since XY. So the opponent can stack as many Landorus checks as they choose, and I can still get by them with one mon for support, if I even need that much depending on my Landorus set.
Landorus isn't as hard pressed to get Rock Polish off as you make him out to be. While not walling anything, his bulk does require a good offensive hit to OHKO him, usually a SE one at that
252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Iron Head vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Landorus: 211-250 (66.1 - 78.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Landorus: 232-274 (72.7 - 85.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Pixilate Mega Altaria Return vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Landorus: 232-274 (72.7 - 85.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
And Landorus only needs to survive that one hit to get his boost and sweep through the team in the mid-late game when he goes to work. I noted earlier Landorus's SpA with Sheer Force + LO is the equivalent of invested Base 228, which is higher than any wallbreaking Mega. However, that was with a neutral nature. Rock Polish sets run Positive offense natures, which actually means they will hit harder than most sets without set up.
The result of this is that Landorus's offense match-up set doesn't sacrifice his match up with balance/stall: If the opponent lacks a check to the 3 Attack set you chose, it might make him better since he's dishing harder blows and defensive mons aren't fast enough for the drop from Modest to impact his speed (which is 1 point below Jolly Excadrill, still decent for wallbreaking). I think the reason Rock Polish is more common than CM is because unlike CM, Rock Polish doesn't immediately trail behind the other sets against its non-favored playstyle, but rather has potential to perform as well if not better. It's not even like Landorus matchs up poorly against offense without Rock Polish, just that Rock Polish is his best set against it; without it, the slower wallbreakers still have to stomach the strong blows since the faster members can't switch in but have to be ready to revenge. It just means Landorus won't be sweeping through the team, which isn't even necessarily his job in the first place: the RP set CAN do that as another benefit, but I have had games where it did not need to do that to be a major factor in my win.
You know thats all true and fine what your writing here, but its also complete theorymoning. In practise it wont go that easy. Everybody here talks about how few checks Lando has while in fact these people are talking about set dependent counters. Pretty much everything with base speed > 101 is a check to landorus. Starting with offensive Chomp all the way up to Mega Kazam and Aerodactyl and most of them can actually switch into 1, 2 or even 3 of landos attacks.
Just 6-0ing a team with Lando is much more difficult than you make it out to be. Even if the opponents teams counter can be beaten due to you having the right coverage move/teamsupport (and Thundurus wont help you getting past Gliscor for example because the opponent wont stay in to eat an HP ice from it) Lando still has to get past those offensive checks and while he can wear them down over time, the same is true for him, his bulk is decent for an offensive mon but its not enough to let him come in over and over again, even against more defensive mons, not without any form of recovery. Most of the defensive stuff you often see on balance does a good chunk of damage to him when he tries to come in and often enough can even beat him one on one with full life. Then there is SR damage, yeah he is neutral to it but not immune, and when using moves like uturn, hp ice, knock off and such he also takes life orb damage. From my experience you dont even need a consistent switch in for him, because over the course of a game you will probably have 1 or 2 occasions where you have switch something into him early to mid game. In the late(mid)game you will usually have something heavily damaged on your team anyway that can just act as a sacrificial piece, then you bring a check and get the momentum back into your favour.
And another thing about RP sets, they need pretty much all the life they have to get that RP up which means they will usually be kept back until late game. So if you didnt see the opponents lando all the way into the midgame you can be pretty sure its an RP set and plan accordingly. Its pretty much the same as with BD Azu. If it doesnt come in early/midgame to wreck shit you know the set.
ABR made a really good point with his statement about people running slow and passive teams (especially balance teams) and then complaining about all the wallbreakers and match up. It should be clear to anyone that its not possible to have a 100% reliable counter to every possible set of every wallbreaker in the tier. Because of that balance needs to be, well, balanced to succeed. You have to complement your defensive utility core with some speed and power to fight the slow wallbreakers by forcing them out and either retain momentum or outright punish the opponent for bringing them in. For example, even if your teams def core is weak to lets say Gardewhore, your opponent might think twice about abusing that weakness if you have a banded Tini on your team that not only can switch into Garde a few times but also punish him severely for bringing her in by nukeing the shit out of something.
In the Aegi suspect test someone posted a replay of a "balance" team with only 1 fast mon and 5 fatties of which 3 were water weak and then acted like its an total outrage that this team got 6-0ed by Manaphy. This has nothing to do with matchup or Manaphy beeing broken, just with bad teambuilding. And i feel like its mostly the same with Landorus and wallbreakers in general. People use teams that are passive as hell, cant cover all the wallbreakers defensively and then complain about match up instead of just gearing themselves a bit more towards offense. Dont get me wrong, there will still be unfortunate match ups, but if some A rank threat outright 6-0es your team i dare say there is something wrong with your team in the first place.
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How about a list of my thoughts prior to hitting the suspect ladder instead of huge paragraphs...
I'm leaning toward banning Landorus-I, but could be swayed by the ladder environment or anti-ban posts (once I take the time to skim the thread).
Risk vs. Reward: This is the most important point for me. Lando-i is a low-risk, high-reward Pokemon when building. It has sets to help vs. every play style, which will almost always do their job if you play well. While I'm not a seasoned OU veteran, I view this as a hallmark of a broken Pokemon.
Minimal hard counters: M-Latias and Cresselia are what I've heard tossed around as hard counters. That really isn't much... Revenge killing or multiple checks combined with good prediction/play to get your check(s) in safely is a more reliable strategy imo. Having Pursuit-bait as your only counter sucks.
Versatility: 4 Attacks w/ the correct coverage move (HP Ice, Sludge Wave, Focus Blast, Knock Off, Rock Slide...you get the point) to help support your team, RP to help vs. Offense, CM vs. bulkier teams (I never see this though?).
While strong, it is not over-centralizing: Without Lando-i I don't see balance becoming over-powered. Sure, it is a 1-mon wrecking ball vs. those builds, but there are other ways to beat balanced builds. Heck, there are other 1-mon wrecking crews (Kyu-b, Manaphy, m-Garde).
Raw Power: I think everyone agrees Lando-i has plenty of raw power...right?
I look forward to playing on the ladder and seeing how my opinions/views might change!
I'm leaning toward banning Landorus-I, but could be swayed by the ladder environment or anti-ban posts (once I take the time to skim the thread).
Risk vs. Reward: This is the most important point for me. Lando-i is a low-risk, high-reward Pokemon when building. It has sets to help vs. every play style, which will almost always do their job if you play well. While I'm not a seasoned OU veteran, I view this as a hallmark of a broken Pokemon.
Minimal hard counters: M-Latias and Cresselia are what I've heard tossed around as hard counters. That really isn't much... Revenge killing or multiple checks combined with good prediction/play to get your check(s) in safely is a more reliable strategy imo. Having Pursuit-bait as your only counter sucks.
Versatility: 4 Attacks w/ the correct coverage move (HP Ice, Sludge Wave, Focus Blast, Knock Off, Rock Slide...you get the point) to help support your team, RP to help vs. Offense, CM vs. bulkier teams (I never see this though?).
While strong, it is not over-centralizing: Without Lando-i I don't see balance becoming over-powered. Sure, it is a 1-mon wrecking ball vs. those builds, but there are other ways to beat balanced builds. Heck, there are other 1-mon wrecking crews (Kyu-b, Manaphy, m-Garde).
Raw Power: I think everyone agrees Lando-i has plenty of raw power...right?
I look forward to playing on the ladder and seeing how my opinions/views might change!
I really think Lando deserves a ban because it' a really huge threat, first of all his coverage is amazing and it can hit all the meta neutrally. It has a good matchup againist almost every team that doesn't have Cresselia or Mega Latias (these 2 can be easily trapped by things like TTar or Sharp, so just a bit of support makes Lando a monster) Its decent bulk makes him difficult to revenge kill without some prior damage and it can easily make 1/2 kills while you're trying to get enough damage to rkill. It can support the team too acting as a rocks setter, while opening holes in the opponent team with his high power.
So the time has finally come. We all agree i think that landorus is one of the premier threats of the metagame, probably the closest to be broken, that's because of its insanely wide movepool that let's him almost with no counters and few things that can afford switching into it and also provides him unpredictability, since it can run multiple sets from Cm wallbreaker to rock polish that demolishes offense; this paired with absurd raw power, good speed and acceptable bulk makes lando-i an absolute monster.
This could seem enough to classify it as "broken" and therefore banworthy. However i'm still not totally convinced; lando, while a dominating force of the meta, is not so overcentralizing and restrictive for teambuilding, as when you play it becomes easier than you would think to play around it (even if this could be because i tend to play offensive playstyles mostly, for defensive ones is "a bit" more difficult), it's not so difficult to find answers to it naturally on a normal ou team, even if they can be shaky or unreliable, but this applies to many OU powerhouses, especially wallbreakers. Another thing is that i'm not seeing relevant negative effects lando has on the metagame, as well as i don't see relevant benefits the ban would bring solutions to the issues the meta has atm (looking at you team matchup). So in conclusion, i'm quite unsure about wether banning lando is the right thing to do or not, maybe freeing the meta from one of the most powerful behemoths will not solve matchup issue but it may be the first step in that direction, so i really don't know atm, hope to clear up my ideas with the laddering period and maybe by reading something more here.
This could seem enough to classify it as "broken" and therefore banworthy. However i'm still not totally convinced; lando, while a dominating force of the meta, is not so overcentralizing and restrictive for teambuilding, as when you play it becomes easier than you would think to play around it (even if this could be because i tend to play offensive playstyles mostly, for defensive ones is "a bit" more difficult), it's not so difficult to find answers to it naturally on a normal ou team, even if they can be shaky or unreliable, but this applies to many OU powerhouses, especially wallbreakers. Another thing is that i'm not seeing relevant negative effects lando has on the metagame, as well as i don't see relevant benefits the ban would bring solutions to the issues the meta has atm (looking at you team matchup). So in conclusion, i'm quite unsure about wether banning lando is the right thing to do or not, maybe freeing the meta from one of the most powerful behemoths will not solve matchup issue but it may be the first step in that direction, so i really don't know atm, hope to clear up my ideas with the laddering period and maybe by reading something more here.
For those who have played with a landorus on their usually and sees a favorable match up the first thing that comes to mind is, "All I need is to set up rocks and win with Lando without having to set up." For those who have seen a landorus on the opposing team the first thing that come to mind is "Ok, I have to keep this mon, and this mon alive to make sure Lando doesn't go out of control." As already explain nothing likes to switch in to landorus except for mega latias (but let's be honest who runs that anyways) and most likely you are going to have to sack something just to bring in your soft check in order to scare the opponent out to just gain momentum back into the battle. It is honestly painful to balance getting destroyed by this monster (my favorite play style), defensive having a tough time even keeping up with the damage it can cause because of it wide move pool. and finally seeing offense (a fun play style to play against) getting treated like complete and utter trash by the same mind set as explain in the first sentence "All I need is to set up rocks and win with Lando without having to set up." As a ou and nu player I believe there are many things that needs to be banned in the tier even though landorus is one of them, it is not the top of the priority but it is still on the list. (For guys who doesn't want it banned remember the council can do the same thing as they did the sword when a new metagame comes around)
This is what you do with literally every single threat of the metagame, of course with lando this is a bit emphasized, but it is kinda normal in a meta full of hard hitting mons.
many people, you should try it out because it's a fuckin beast
You made what i find decent points on your others paragraphs, so these two that I want to rebut will be my focus.
While you're correct that many of these Pokemon can switch into Landorus on some moves, the fact remains that at that point you're relying on prediction to answer him even if you know what set he's running. And depending on what set it is, even if your answer can switch in, it doesn't guarantee they'll be able to win if Landorus picked a certain move.: If you answer was a fast Revenge Killer like Mega Kazam, he loses if Lando used a boosting move: RP outspeeds and Calm Mind survives any attack even with the traced Sheer Force.
252+ SpA Sheer Force Mega Alakazam Psychic vs. +1 0 HP / 0 SpD Landorus: 211-249 (66.1 - 78%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
So Mons of Alakzam's nature (Quick Glass Cannons) lose to Landorus barring a resisted hit (which again depends on the coverage choice), since they fall if they eat an attack, and not all can manage a kill against a CM boost nor will they outspeed a RP boost. There's obviously exceptions to be found still, but I want to point out that simply outspeeding Landorus isn't inherently all it takes to check him.
One point you noted was that Thundurus doesn't help get past Gliscor since the opponent won't stay in for HP Ice, but that's a thing to consider: Gliscor is forced out, so now Thundurus has a free turn, which means it could be going for a NP boost, Paralyze your switch in, or just force it to eat a Thunderbolt if he calls your bluff. And that is now two offensive Pokemon that Gliscor, your teams tank, fails to check, and two extremely powerful pressuring ones at that.
I also noted myself multiple times that Landorus was sweeping teams at best in the mid-game, if he did at all.
I consider there to be a significant difference between consistently 6-0ing a team and being able to pull off a Mid-Game offensive sweep so consistently. By mid game either the entire team is weakened in some respect or one or two members are fainted.
And I also noted that sweeping teams with Rock Polish isn't the main responsibility, just a capability of the set. If Landorus could wallbreak AND consistently 6-0 offense the test wouldn't even be necessary.
And while you do have a point about RP sets being kept in the back to preserve their health, that's again getting into the issues of Landorus being able to bluff or run so many moves or sets. Sya my Landorus gets identified as Rock Polish, so the opponent doesn't want to give it the chance to sweep. That means they now have to play more conservatively with either mons that avert the set-up opportunity, or the mons that could handle/revenge him after set up. If these mons have to perform other tasks, now it's in the opponent's hands to make sure they stay healthy while doing so. And this is all running under the assumption my Landorus is in fact RP in the first place. RP is mainly used against offensive teams, so what if I simply don't bring him out because he's an AoA set and my other attackers just serve me better in early/mid-game? Or I keep him in the back even under ideal circumstances specifically TO bluff the Rock Polish set and force the opponent to plan around seeing that late game? Prediction and planning go both ways, and as I've outlined above, it's just as possible to pressure the opponent with a Landorus set on the team as one that is not on the team.
We are talking about pokemon here. You wont get through a match without prediction. Its the normal course of a match that somewhere during the midgame where both sides are weakened and cant just bring in their counters all the time that the players have to make plays/predictions to shift the battle in their favour. In that regard lando isnt any different from any other mon in the game.
Oh and while we are takling about prediction, Lando needs quite a bit of that to work as well.
I've mentioned it in an earlier post but he has no spammable move, Sludgewave is probably the closest thing to beeing spammable, his stab as well as most of his coverage moves are very easy to take advantage of since they only hit specific targets. Clicking EP if there are levitators/flying types on the other team always has the risk of giving a free turn and moves like Knock off, HP ice, Rockslide and focus blast only really work against a few specific targets. Example, lets say you have lando with EQ, HP Ice and Sludgewave in against a spd heatran which has rotom-w and scarf lando-T in the back. The amount of prediction the Lando player needs here to pull through isnt exactly small. He gets a kill if he predicts right but if he doesnt he takes lots of damage/gives a free switch and is forced out.
Ehm no, its one mon that Gliscor fails to check. Thundurus. Unless your Lando has HP ice as well he checks it and if Lando has HP ice i wonder what you need the Thundurus for? Latis can be dealt with fairly easy thought team support (pursuit), getting past things like GLiscor, spd Skarm etc without the right coverage is alot more difficult unless you go for things like Goth/Mag. Just having something to threaten the check wont remove him. It might not even pressure the opponent if he has a Thundy switch in (which isnt hard to find).
I dare say keeping your AOA lando in the back to bluff rock polish will hurt you much more than your opponent in most situations especially against offense teams who arent short on things that outspeed and ohko Lando.
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So after reading the first 8 pages, I was turned off by the lame (and incredibly repetitive) pro-ban arguments and the total absence of any decent anti-ban arguments. My thoughts to myself were simply this: "Ok, so lando-I is hard to swap into. Great, so are most other decent OU wall breakers, some of them don't even need to predict all that well (have you ever tried swapping into an LO crawdaunt? Knock off into aqua jet alone wrecks any offensive swap in while he has just enough bulk to get in a second attack against most defensive answers). How is lando-I coming in in the first place? Most electric types worth anything in OU outspeed it and run HP ice, so he's not coming into megaman or thundy. Most ground types not named gliscor or excadrill can stomach a hit and either phase or ohko back, and running EQ without a contingency plan for common flyers just seems like bad teambuilding. He can't take a hit from any respectable offensive threat and even if he could, most offensive threats outspeed and ko anyway, so that's out."
So yeah, can someone explain to me how Lando-I comes in on anything but the most passive teams out there? I honestly don't buy the "he 6-0s stall" argument because if that were a valid argument, Espeon would've been suspected ages ago for it's pdef CM set (yes, it's a set, no it's not good outside of BP, but it can 6-0 stall without BP tho). Heck, even passive mons can phase lando-i on the switch, preventing him from doing anything.
So yeah, stop talking about how hard he is to swap into, we all know that. Tell me about how he gets in in the first place. If you can argue to me that he can reliably find a swap in on multiple bulky offense / heavy offense teams, then I'll start taking the pro-ban side more seriously.
Also, anti-ban folks need to step up their game, the fact that Mega-Aerodactyl hasn't been mentioned once despite being one of the most solid offensive checks to lando-I in the game is astonishing.
For the record, I am not taking any sides at the moment, I just wanted to comment briefly on the awful arguments I have seen thus far.
So yeah, can someone explain to me how Lando-I comes in on anything but the most passive teams out there? I honestly don't buy the "he 6-0s stall" argument because if that were a valid argument, Espeon would've been suspected ages ago for it's pdef CM set (yes, it's a set, no it's not good outside of BP, but it can 6-0 stall without BP tho). Heck, even passive mons can phase lando-i on the switch, preventing him from doing anything.
So yeah, stop talking about how hard he is to swap into, we all know that. Tell me about how he gets in in the first place. If you can argue to me that he can reliably find a swap in on multiple bulky offense / heavy offense teams, then I'll start taking the pro-ban side more seriously.
Also, anti-ban folks need to step up their game, the fact that Mega-Aerodactyl hasn't been mentioned once despite being one of the most solid offensive checks to lando-I in the game is astonishing.
For the record, I am not taking any sides at the moment, I just wanted to comment briefly on the awful arguments I have seen thus far.
WebBowser Landorus doesn't need to come in on a lot of things. Although for the record it takes advantage of a lot of common choiced users i.e. Raikou, Keldeo, etc locked into the wrong move and can get free switches from slow VoltTurners like Rotom-W and CB Scizor. Nobody is arguing it should be banned for its ability to switch into things and then threaten to KO (unlike Metagross), it's more the fact that once its in, it puts on an immense amount of pressure and often gets a kill or does serious damage. So I'm not really sure why you're focused on this aspect since nobody was asking what Greninja switches into either (granted they are very different but the fact remains that for an offensive suspect with great coverage, we are not asking it to be switching into lots of stuff). Generally Landorus wants to come in with a free switch and will proceed to do work from there. When a pokemon is doing over 100% damage (out of 600%) on average to the other team in exchange only for its own 100% HP without being a momentum killer or setup fodder (i.e. -2 SpA Latios), that is a good indication that it is better than the rest of the tier and probably broken.
Also phazing is not a reliable way to deal with Landorus at all. Yeah Hippo can take one Earth Power and Whirlwind it out but that's still a lost exchange.
Also phazing is not a reliable way to deal with Landorus at all. Yeah Hippo can take one Earth Power and Whirlwind it out but that's still a lost exchange.
This is the OU subforum pal, suspect test threads are, for the most part, where ppl who asked for said suspects to complain and repeat ad infinitum that the poke should be banned. Luckily this thread serves no purpose to actually decide the outcome which is why few antiban ppl bother coming to "convince" the majority. Just get the reqs and vote.
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