Metagame National Dex Metagame Discussion

On another note, has anyone found a proper use case for Mega Gyarados? I tried using him a few times and it's just so hard for me to justify using over Waterpon, and even with DD his speed is so abhorrent. I do think Mold Breaker is interesting though, which is why I wonder what his best pairings are, or if he's even worth entertaining in the builder in the first place, since I personally couldn't find a good place to fit him.
I’ve used it and came to the consensus conclusion;

Mega-Gyarados is a fine Pokémon that unfortunately just doesn’t seem to work as well or consistently as its competing options. It’s never “bad,” and is viable, but your team is just better using other choices. Sucks because Gyarados has been sweeping homies for generations.

Maybe a Mega-Gyarados + Roaring Moon tandem could work? Gyarados can Temper Flare past things like Scizor and Ferrothorn than Moon struggle with. It also beats up on Gliscor, Tusk, Moltres, etc.
 
Moving on from that tangent we have the Normal typing which is always welcome, providing the always welcome ghost immunity with the punishing downside of being vulnerable to another common type in the tier. Scizor being the most notable of the few that can reliably revenge kill Blursa while switching into it's powerful Blood Moon.
A few other notable switch ins to Blood Moon(And wont immediately suffer a follow-up earth power): Chansey (OU Defensive)(27.7%), Blissey (OU Defensive)(27.3%), Ting-Lu (OU Defensive Hazard Setter)(36.9%), Slowking-Galar (OU Assault Vest)(43.6%), Corviknight (OU Physically Defensive)(43.1%), Alomomola (OU Assault Vest)(48.7%), Dragonite (OU Choice Band/OU Swords Dance)(47%), Dragonite (OU Bulky Attacker)(39.3%), Ogerpon-Cornerstone (UU All-Out Attacker/UU Swords Dance)(51.8%), Ogerpon-Cornerstone (OU Swords Dance)(52.1%), Slowking-Galar (OU Defensive Pivot)(52.7%), Primarina (OU Assault Vest)(56%), Toxapex (OU The Pex (Defensive))(56.7%), Hatterene (OU Assault Vest)(56.6%), Tornadus-Therian (UU Pivot)(57.1%)

Of the pokemon listed here, only Ting-Lu is actually a splashable check to BUrsa. Galarian Slowking usage is significantly down due to the presence of Kingambit and MTtar with their pursuit to trap it super easily, which is why you're especially not using AV which is so vulnerable to it. Not to mention it does nothing to actually beat CM BUrsa. Corviknight is only a check if it runs Body Press AND Iron Defense, as otherwise BUrsa will just tank Body Presses with lefties+Moonlight until it's boosted enough to break through Corv (which it does at +4 btw, not hard to do in that match up if Corv lacks ID). Chansey and Blissey are not common or splashable pokemon, being very difficult to fit outside of stall. Dragonite fails to be a check at all if Multiscale is broken, as +1 Bloodmoon will OHKO it (unless you're bulky DNite but that fails to threaten BUrsa at all so it'll just boost and break through it). Ogerpon-C is an offensive check and doesn't fit on the defensive teams (this is relevant to why BUrsa is banned). Primarina can only switch in one time as Bloodmoon does over 40% to it and with hazards up, that is too much. Toxapex just gets folded by +1 EP unless max special defense (and does nothing back to it outside Toxic which is nowhere near fast acting enough to stop BUrsa from taking multiple KOs vs the defensive teams Pex is on). Hatterene is both a very mediocre pick but also is slower and complete set up fodder for CM. And TornT cannot touch it outside Knock Off and dies in the process to +1 Bloodmoon. And Alomomola I don't think I need to mention why it's not a check between getting flattened by CM and needing AV which prevents it from doing anything to BM (it's not breaking through it and without Toxic, cannot stop its sweep at all).

Also I'll touch on it, but MScizor is only able to revenge kill with offensive sets running Close Combat, which you don't really see on slower defensive teams because of the lack of defense investment on those sets and their lack of Roost for longevity.

So we've established a lack of splashable defensive counterplay beyond 1-2 pokemon (and one of those requires very specific sets).

252 Spee Primarina(219), 0 Spee Landorous-T(218), 252 Spee Azumarill/Iron Hands(218), 0 Spee Great Tusk(210), 0 Spee Rillaboom/Kommo-o(206), 40 Spee Heatran(200), 0 Spee Mamoswine(196), 0 Spee Skarmory(176), 20 Spee Scizor(171), 0 Spee Corviknight(170), 0 Spee Pelipper/Alomola(166)

This barrier of speed while costly for BlUrsa's stat investment allows them a certain advantage in some of them matchups most notably those of Primarina and Landorous-T.

Mentioning its speed is really irrelevant because it's a bulky wincon. It outpaces the walls its meant to break down. LandoT also cannot beat BUrsa, Iron Hands is rare and outsped with minor speed investment, Great Tusk needs Fighting Stab to beat BUrsa (not an easy fit since it wants Ground Stab, Spin and Ice Spinner). Rillaboom is terrible, Kommo-O is rare, Heatran loses to CM BUrsa, Mamo is nonexistent, Skarmory is almost nonexistent, MScizor loses to BUrsa without CC (which defensive cannot run), Corv loses without ID+BP, Pelipper is rain exclusive and Mola loses in general.

My main issue is you're just listing off pokemon without factoring their relevance or usage in the tier, if they're good at all, and without factoring in other things. You just list random mons that aren't used like Bisharp(?), Mimikyu(?), Arcanine-Hisui? Like you don't have to dig into bad mons to illustrate its power. Use OU pokemon for that. Also BUrsa does not need coverage in most cases as Bloodmoon+EP alone is enough to break down defensive teams with CM boosts.

BlUrsa feels like its in a weird spot in terms of strategy. On one hand it's an incredible powerful out of the gate attacker much like Char Y, though it misses out any kind of team support outside of yawn/taunt although that will severely hamper BlUrsa's ability to sweep without Calm Mind and weakens BlUrsa even more against the stall teams that will give BlUrsa a hard time hazing away stat boosts, threatening toxic/para and forcing constant switches that combined with knock off will wear BlUrsa down.

BlUrsa's biggest problem on paper is the 50/50 nature of the game you play with your opponent. Whether it be a protect, pivot, sub, or nothing at all there's plenty of mind games to play around Blood Moon and how you use it or don't. This struggle to predict combined with the sluggish nature of BlUrsa encourages the use of pivot moves to get it in safely or, ideally, trick room into teleport to allow BlUrsa multiple turns of terror. However, dedicating so much of your team to a strategy that last 4 turns while giving your opponents ample time to buff/stack hazards or anything they want is hardly an ideal strategy. Most of the time BlUrsa would serve as a punishment to Landorous-T leading players or an opportunity(with bulk investment instead of speed) to counter a late game kingambit and whatever else might still be around. Otherwise most of your games will boil down to hoping your opponent failed to bring a sufficient special wall.

Bloodmoon is not difficult to use at all. Simple CM+2 Attacks (Bloodmoon+Earth Power) is a easy to use and highly effective set that flattens defensive teams. Balance struggles to stop it from getting a bunch of kills duo to their weaker nature and it feasting on their defensive backbones while Bulky Offense it still can go for multiple KOs since they feature similar defensive pokemon that Balance can run, that BUrsa feast on and it's extremely difficult to pivot around without risking damage. Is it boosting and you switch to an offensive threat to pressure it out? Oops it just attacked and dropped your offensive mon. It needs minor support for positioning but slow pivots (and pivots in general) are abundant in this tier and it's not difficult to position.

Look, I get that a lot of pokemon get chucked up to the Ubers tier just for the sake of not having them run rampant before they can be properly investigated but give the big red bear a break. It was clearly a mon that was not designed with singles in play and without a sufficient amount of support such as max hazards + trick room its not getting more than a single kill against a competently played team.

CLOSING STATEMENTS
This entire post was just a way to hopefully put some attention on the big ol' bear. Give it some love, and while I doubt it'll ever find much of a niche in the hyper competitive tier of Uber's I could easily see it as a strong late game threat in NatDex OU, or maybe even a setup sweeper should someone manage to get the trick room off without sacking too much.

This confuses me but I assume you weren't around when it was legal before so you just weren't aware of what it was like before.. BUrsa isn't some "we just chucked it in Ubers by default" mon. It was allowed in OU for some time earlier in the gen, but ultimately it was way too oppressive to deal with and was canned. It absolutely functions well in singles just as it does in doubles. There's a reason why when it was suspected in regular SV OU it was banned with a 93% majority, a level of one sided you almost never see in suspects. It had no issues getting multiple kills when it was legal, and while it would need a bit more finesse to do so now without Tera, it would still be a very negative presence in the tier that suffocates defense while still being able to trade into offense (which is frailer and thus not necessitating boosts).

For me, BUrsa is a mon I sincerely hope we never free for the remainder of this generation.
 
I appreciate the notes and did not originally find anything pertaining to Blood-Moon Ursaluna suspect test so I assumed it was never subjected to one and was simply placed into Ubers to be investigated at a later time.

There isn't really a whole lot about suspect tests or where pokemon end up to begin with around here. Or at least it isn't readily accessible for a newer player(myself) and as such I made an assumption ;-;
If ONLY we had an archive of previous important posts, found at the top of the forums, that includes past tiering action, such as the quickban of Ursaluna Bloodmoon and Baxcalibur!
Shame that something like that surely must not exist.
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Can't believe the lazy Natdex mods never bothered hosting an archive.
 
If ONLY we had an archive of previous important posts, found at the top of the forums, that includes past tiering action, such as the quickban of Ursaluna Bloodmoon and Baxcalibur!
Shame that something like that surely must not exist.
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Can't believe the lazy Natdex mods never bothered hosting an archive.
:( im sorry I didn't know. I just did a search and assumed something like that would be around the top couple of pages.


Imma just take the post down. Sorry
 
If ONLY we had an archive of previous important posts, found at the top of the forums, that includes past tiering action, such as the quickban of Ursaluna Bloodmoon and Baxcalibur!
Shame that something like that surely must not exist.
View attachment 718556
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Can't believe the lazy Natdex mods never bothered hosting an archive.

What's with the needless sarcasm? Hayde may just not be familiar with the forums and thus simply didn't know where to look for such information. Would it have helped to ask first? Absolutely, but there wasn't a need for this.

:( im sorry I didn't know. I just did a search and assumed something like that would be around the top couple of pages.


Imma just take the post down. Sorry

For the future, if you're unsure about something you can always try and ask about it in the forums whether in the Simple Questions and Answers thread, or even here assuming it's relevant to the tier/meta at large.
 
I'm not gonna post it in the Suspect Thread because I'm probably not going for Reqs + this isn't really that relevant to that conversation at hand, but I think there is something to be said about the human condition regarding that people get more mad that a Pokemon Pursuit Trappers force to be a U-Turn and Wisp bot does that to their Pursuit Trapper.

"So many 50/50s with Wisp and shit!!!" the guy says spamming Kingambit on every single team. And don't say you blame Dragapult on that because even without it in the tier you're gonna still be spamming that shit and probably Mega Tyranitar too for Rocks + to not get cooked by Sun. If anything, Kingambit on certain turns with the same set can be significantly more annoying with 33/33/33s. This is something a much better player than me said to me when the Teraless metagame was new, and I said "Nah Kingambit doesn't have that many things like that, I think that's pretty rare", but the more I played I realized they're kinda right.

Kingambit can viably click all of Pursuit, Knock Off and Sucker Punch against certain Pokemon and teams on the same turn, all of which having massively different impact on the game. An easy example would be pairing it with Pokemon that want to get rid of Boots for hazard spam, then you can have a Pokemon that outspeeds. Sucker can dispatch it with less threat of retaliation if preferred, Pursuit will punish it itself if it switches, Knock Off can hit it if you believe you can live the retaliation or try to punish something else on the switch instead.

Here's a practical theoretical:

Kingambit at 70% HP versus a Waterpon weakened to around 50%, with a Dragapult in the back, known to be Specs. Waterpon wants to live or get out because it outspeeds and kills two Pokemon on Kingambit's team because of course it does it's Waterpon.

If Kingambit clicks Sucker Punch to just kill it, it doesn't take 45% on average VS invested utility set and thus has a guaranteed switch into Specs Draco with Hazards Up. Obviously, if Waterpon switches out this is a wasted turn and can give massive momentum to the other team. There is also the possibility of other moves that Sucker won't hit, but that just leads to another 50/50 because Sucker vs Knock, or even Pursuit technically could still be on the table.

If Kingambit clicks Knock Off and Waterpon switches, which may be the possibility depending on how much the player wants item progress (maybe they don't believe killing Waterpon is a big priority), but on top of that it can just kill Waterpon at this range making it a viable middleground with those two conditions.

If Kingambit clicks Pursuit and Waterpon doesn't switch, Kingambit is taking big damage and doesn't kill. However, these moves are all still fairly viable. Pursuit still catches it if it switches, Sucker if it wants to attack for the kill, and Knock to middleground/hit if Sucker can fail.

This kind of thing doesn't happen super often, but I think it's a lot more annoying than whatever shenanigans I encounter with Dragapult on average. This also doesn't take into account the Swords Dance Gambit which can mess with a lot of the dynamics too. I'm also not saying this is some "unsolvable puzzle" as the opposing player, there are going to be more likely options and less likely options, but fundamentally there are game states where all three are at least weighted clicks and you won't have the most control over getting a good scenario. Thus, a 33/33/33.

This is a problem I run into more than Dragapult where I go to utility Kingambit and if I get burnt I still have a Knock bot + their Dragapult is fundamentally is known to be not that threatening to me. If they click a Specs move like Draco, now it's just dead. If it's Z, depending on HP ranges and set it's probably just dead. If it clicks U-Turn, it's not that different than any other Pokemon clicking U-Turn against any team with a Pokemon that is 100% the switch into it.

I'm a big hater of Pursuit Trapping as a concept, not a big fan of Dragapult either, but seeing people get specifically annoyed at Wisp Pult vs. their free-ASF-on-every-single-team Pursuit mons is so eyerolly. No, you do not deserve to just force an offensive threat to click U-Turn until your bulky Dark-Type is dead despite never taking a risk on it ever. If Dragapult is broken, it shouldn't be because it can kneecap itself to not be entirely useless against two of the most common Pokemon in the metagame, it should be because it is actually a massive problem to deal with. And while I can be convinced on that, a lot of these arguments have done nothing for me.

With regards to Pursuit/Gambit and my biases: I'll admit I'm a massive hater of Kingambit nowadays, a big part of why being I've never been a fan of Pursuit Trapping as a mechanic, immensely disproportional performance with no drawbacks. If Kingambit didn't have Pursuit it'd still be plenty good enough to be thrown on a shit ton of teams, but now that it has it it can also have the benefit of playing *almost* 6v5 against two types (unless it has a resisted Secondary Type) while also getting FreELO kills additionally under more circumstances. If Tyranitar can't cut it without Pursuit, then it's just a fraud sorry. Not saying that Pursuit is broken, but it's my bias that I prefer to not have much of it in the metagame, and if you don't agree that's fine. It's my preference, fine if it's not yours, and I hope in 2025 we can collectively stop pretending that everyone's opinions are just the textbook definition of Tiering Policy, and that personal taste has a matter in what people want to happen.

I'm not actually really "Pro Dragapult" but I do think that a lot of the arguments revolve around it being "annoying" more than concrete arguments for its brokenness. I don't think it's particularly a good metagame presence, I do not think Pokemon like Kingambit are one either and I wish both of them got scrutiny rather than half the posts reading as just "Dragapult Wisped my Kingambit and made it just an okay Knock Spammer - broken set variety". Not gonna be upset if it leaves, but I might be annoyed if it leaves and we just continue hopping on Kingambit's Thang despite having many fewer excuses to not give it scrutiny.
 
i already yapped my ass off on my thoughts about pult on the suspect thread, but i'll just make a quick comment here in regards to the above post which is to say this: two things can be true. pult can be bastard broken AND annoying, and kingambit can be both extremely powerful (i think almost suspect worthy, but hey) while pursuit traps are a very solid balancing lever for very strong pokemon in the metagame.

since you had the courtesy to address your biases, i'll say that ttar is my 2nd favorite pokemon to use of all time and that i fucking LOVE pursuit trapping.

if pursuit is magically removed from natdex, the strong psychics now have absolutely zero fear from being slapped on most teams. choice item lele is now literally unstoppable. glowking is very, very hard to punish. I could list every suit-weak mon and say that they get better but you get the point i trust

in regards to a mon being "fraudulent" without pursuit (mtar) i find that to be just a bit of a redundant statement? like yeah if you removed iron fist from melmetal it would probably suck ass. tyranitar is THE guy who is an extremely fat special tank who controls the ghosts and psychics. this isn't a bad thing; I'd argue it actually forces players to consider their gameplan for dealing with tar on a structural level since head-to-head fighting it is not an option. if ghosts and psychics could just mindlessly click stabs with zero repurcussions i think you'll find that it would get extremely boring extremely quickly.
 
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