Metagame National Dex AG Metagame Discussion

[Negative Charge]

I asked this in the Simple Questions thread but nobody answered so I'll try again here - banning Primals from Dynamaxing doesn't make mechanical sense. If it's just a silent balance clause that's fine (well not really, this is AG, but I digress) but Primals do not have a Mega button, they automatically change (like Castform switching into Weather). Unlike Megas and Ultra Necrozma and Z-move users, there would be no in-game button preventing the Primals from having a Dynamax button. Mix and Mega Treats Primals as Megas because it's fun but they are mechanically distinct (if they were like Megas Pdon wouldn't be switching into water moves as Base Groudon). Can anyone explain?

 

[Sereg]

They're still in-battle permanent form changes with a 100 point bst increase. The only two differences between megas and primals is that primals change form automatically (which, as you point out, actually makes them stronger than megas in this case) and the fact that they don't use up your mega-slot (which also makes them even stronger than megas). As they are effectively megas-but-better, it doesn't make sense for them to get around a restriction that megas have.

 

[Negative Charge]

They're still in-battle permanent form changes with a 100 point bst increase. The only two differences between megas and primals is that primals change form automatically (which, as you point out, actually makes them stronger than megas in this case) and the fact that they don't use up your mega-slot (which also makes them even stronger than megas). As they are effectively megas-but-better, it doesn't make sense for them to get around a restriction that megas have.

I'm just saying that you're making up mechanics because Megas and Primals are similar, and that's fine, Nat Dex has plenty of made up interactions, but they are not Megas. All of the other made up mechanics for this tier make pretty logical sense (like Hidden Power Max Moves copying the Multi-attack Dynamax mechanics or barring Megas from Dynamaxing). It's inconsistent and has no actual backing to what is the reason a primal can't dynamax. Primals don't have a Primal button, there is nothing logically preventing them from having a Dynamax button. It makes sense for them to get around the restriction because the stated reasons we don't allow Megas to Dynamax (a made up interaction I agree with) do not apply to Primals. Primals also don't have a once per game limit like Ultra Burst and Mega Evolution, another big point of difference.


Rayquaza's Z-move and Mega (and Gen 8 made up Dynamax interaction) interaction supports my argument.

• If Ray knows DA, it can Mega but not Dynamax because we think the Mega button would occupy the slot
• If Ray knows DA but holds a Z-Crystal, it can't Mega or Dynamax because this is how it works in game and again, the button is in place of the Mega and Dynamax button. I suppose we could say the "button priority"in NatDex is therefore Z move > Mega > Dynamax. (Ultra Necrozma being a mix of a Mega and a Z-move supports this priority as well)
• Other than the Gen 8 legends who can't Dynamax, every single Pokemon that has an open "gimmick button" slot can Dynamax in Gen 8 Natdex. Preventing the Primals from doing so is not consistent. They should either be freed or a Primal Clause should be added.

 

[Kate]

Actually, Hidden Power mechanics work more against you here. HP was changed to follow moves like Multi-Attack and how they work with dynamax(similar to said Megas and Primals) going against the established precedent of Z moves making HP always normal type. Setting aside that, this is a frankly horrible idea to alienate the playerbase and further make AG the joke of all metas. Please for the love of God don't do this.

 

[Ropalme1914]

I asked this in the Simple Questions thread but nobody answered so I'll try again here - banning Primals from Dynamaxing doesn't make mechanical sense. If it's just a silent balance clause that's fine (well not really, this is AG, but I digress) but Primals do not have a Mega button, they automatically change (like Castform switching into Weather). Unlike Megas and Ultra Necrozma and Z-move users, there would be no in-game button preventing the Primals from having a Dynamax button. Mix and Mega Treats Primals as Megas because it's fun but they are mechanically distinct (if they were like Megas Pdon wouldn't be switching into water moves as Base Groudon). Can anyone explain?

Primals can't use Z-Moves, there's no reason to believe they would be able to Dynamax, especially when Primal is an extremely close mechanic to Megas.

 

[Rose]

Why you shouldn’t use scarf rayquaza



Rayquaza-Mega @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Delta Stream
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Dragon Ascent
- V-create
- Draco Meteor
- Surf / Extreme Speed / Toxic

Item Usage

+----------------------------------------+

| Items |
| Life Orb 42.446% |
| Focus Sash 19.143% |
| Choice Scarf 15.655% |
| Choice Band 6.949% |
| Lum Berry 3.050% |
| Leftovers 2.963% |
| Weakness Policy 1.273% |
| Assault Vest 1.111% |
| Aguav Berry 0.804% |
| Metronome 0.643% |
| Choice Specs 0.643% |
| Yache Berry 0.577% |
| Other 4.743%

Choice scarf mega rayquaza, the ladder’s favourite bad set. I’m just going to be honest, it sucks. As a revenge killer scarf ray is just completely outclassed by ditto so very hard to justify using. It is very situational and obvious as anything. You get what, anything between zero and one kills with this thing? You try and v-create a zacian and spoiler your opponent just pivots into ho-oh and suddenly you have a zygarde coiling in you face. Why does this have more usage than band? Band sets can actually break whilst scarf lacks the power that items such as the aforementioned choice band and life orb give.

Conclusion

If in doubt don’t scarf mega rayquaza it out.

 

[Patricick]

I asked this in the Simple Questions thread but nobody answered so I'll try again here - banning Primals from Dynamaxing doesn't make mechanical sense. If it's just a silent balance clause that's fine (well not really, this is AG, but I digress) but Primals do not have a Mega button, they automatically change (like Castform switching into Weather). Unlike Megas and Ultra Necrozma and Z-move users, there would be no in-game button preventing the Primals from having a Dynamax button. Mix and Mega Treats Primals as Megas because it's fun but they are mechanically distinct (if they were like Megas Pdon wouldn't be switching into water moves as Base Groudon). Can anyone explain?

Think about it like this; Primals can't Dynamax because it's an alternate form caused by an item. Just like how Ultra Necrozma and Megas can't use it, yet Castform and Morepeko can. We know it's not just legendary alternate forms because Necrozma DM and DW, along with both of the Kyurem formes can Dynamax. And I guess we'll find out if they can or not in a couple months, but right now they follow the consistent logic set by the mechanic so far. And as for the switching automatically thing, Zacian and Zamazenta do the exact same thing that Primals do. There's overall no reason to allow for them to Dynamax, logically or balance wise. And lets be honest, do you really want P-don to be running around spamming max moves with double HP and one weakness? So if there's no logical nor balance reason for us to change how we've already been doing it, why change now?

Also,

if they were like Megas Pdon wouldn't be switching into water moves as Base Groudon

Do you really doubt the sheer, intense autism of Smogoners?

 

[Negative Charge]

Is Arceus Ghost as close as we can get to a BH-esque improof? Shadow Force + Espeed + Brick Break lets you beat non Dynamaxed ditto because your Shadow Force goes second. Anything else come to mind (not talking on a team level, just a single mon)?

Also, has anyone experimented with Heatran? The typing + ability seems like it could do some work in certain matchups. I'm trying to figure out a moveset. Torment seems kinda neat in this meta. I'm also interested in Shaymin Sky for healing wish suport, anyone try it?

 

[Rose]

Is Arceus Ghost as close as we can get to a BH-esque improof? Shadow Force + Espeed + Brick Break lets you beat non Dynamaxed ditto because your Shadow Force goes second. Anything else come to mind (not talking on a team level, just a single mon)?

Also, has anyone experimented with Heatran? The typing + ability seems like it could do some work in certain matchups. I'm trying to figure out a moveset. Torment seems kinda neat in this meta. I'm also interested in Shaymin Sky for healing wish suport, anyone try it?

Arceus @ Ghost Plate
Ability: Multitype
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe or 248 HP / 8 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Judgement
- Focus Blast
- Substitute / Refresh

Arceus ghost (holding ghost plate) with the moves judgement and focus blast only is completely imposterproof.
Also ghost memory silvally.

The physical ghost arceus set you mentioned has a more effective selection of moves but has the downside of losing the 1v1 if the imposter dynamaxes.

 

[Negative Charge]

Arceus @ Ghost Plate
Ability: Multitype
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe or 248 HP / 8 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Judgement
- Focus Blast
- Substitute / Refresh

Arceus ghost (holding ghost plate) with the moves judgement and focus blast only is completely imposterproof.
Also ghost memory silvally.

The physical ghost arceus set you mentioned has a more effective selection of moves but has the downside of losing the 1v1 if the imposter dynamaxes.

Neat! Let's expand now, what are some good Improof cores?

 

[Kate]

Speaking as the Heatran connoisseur(I've made an RMT with it) I can confirm Heatran is at least Semi Viable in the current meta. Its moveset largely remains the same as last generation:
Heatran @ Leftovers
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpD / 4 Spe or 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Spe
Calm / Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Magma Storm
- Toxic
- Taunt
- Stealth Rock / Earth Power

Special Defense is still the optimal set imo, still granting you the ability to completely wall Ho-Oh and Necrozma Dusk Mane, while also allowing you to Dynamax and get helpful chip on both Xerneas and Yveltal. It also allows you to better combat Eternatus. I'd recommend Earth Power if you really want to rely on Heatran to beat it, otherwise SR is preferred as it guarantees rocks vs most Balance teams. Defensive can be used to check pokemon such as Mixed Mray (by far the most reliable way to beat this pokemon w/o Dynamax). Additionally, I've tried out both Scarf and Specs sets with Eruption, which can be helpful cleaners or breakers, but they're not exceptional.

Heatran is an interesting pokemon, and I definitely think with more support arcs being used that aren't Waterceus or Groundceus, this Pokemon will get used more. Hope this helps!

 

[AV Cosmoem]

Zacian-Crowned @ Rusted Sword
Ability: Intrepid Sword
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Behemoth Blade
- Close Combat
- Wild Charge / Crunch
- Protect

it doesn't matter what you improof it with just use two mons who you can get in for free, using protect to scout ditto. loses to random lefties/sash ditto meaning the whole ladder. also you could be normal and run pdon or necro-dm to improof anyway

 

[Talpr0ne]

Think about it like this; Primals can't Dynamax because it's an alternate form caused by an item. Just like how Ultra Necrozma and Megas can't use it, yet Castform and Morepeko can. We know it's not just legendary alternate forms because Necrozma DM and DW, along with both of the Kyurem formes can Dynamax. And I guess we'll find out if they can or not in a couple months, but right now they follow the consistent logic set by the mechanic so far. And as for the switching automatically thing, Zacian and Zamazenta do the exact same thing that Primals do. There's overall no reason to allow for them to Dynamax, logically or balance wise. And lets be honest, do you really want P-don to be running around spamming max moves with double HP and one weakness? So if there's no logical nor balance reason for us to change how we've already been doing it, why change now?

Also,

Do you really doubt the sheer, intense autism of Smogoners?

Silvally can Dynamax in the actual game, likewise Arceus and Giratina-Origin can Dynamax in National Dex. I have no strong feelings one way or another, but being bound to an item isn't a reason why they shouldn't be able to Dynamax, being unable to use Z moves if hacked in without the orbs is the only logical precedent for them not being able to Dynamax in my opinion.

 

[AV Cosmoem]

Silvally can Dynamax in the actual game, likewise Arceus and Giratina-Origin can Dynamax in National Dex. I have no strong feelings one way or another, but being bound to an item isn't a reason why they shouldn't be able to Dynamax, being unable to use Z moves if hacked in without the orbs is the only logical precedent for them not being able to Dynamax in my opinion.

pdon and pogre started with the ability to dmax and were banned from being allowed to dmax because they were fucking broken with it

 

[Patricick]

Does anyone actually use Solgalium Z? I do on my offensive set for NDM and it sometimes works but I find that often don't get to use it because the target resists it or in the case of Yveltal you just get OHKOed. It has the benefit of the OHKO on Zacian and will sometimes kill from full health through the dynmax for Xerneas, but it means that you can't dynamax, which isn't really a problem for my team but is probably a huge deal overall.

Now that I have asked my question, I have some sets that I would like to put out there. Specifically, these two.

Groudown syndrome (Groudon-Primal) @ Red Orb
Ability: Desolate Land
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 244 HP / 252 Atk / 12 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Precipice Blades
- Roar
- Thunder Wave

Flying bacon (Yveltal) @ Life Orb
Ability: Dark Aura
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Dark Pulse
- Oblivion Wing
- Sucker Punch
- Taunt

Now, to preface this, you should know that taking weird, unused sets and making them work is my favorite thing to do. Taunt/Sucker punch may look like a bad set at first, but it really isn't. As a dynamax sweeper, yeah this set is trash. But that's not the point of it. The point is offensive utility, which this set has in spades. It may not dynamax sweep, but it can still sweep, just without using dynamax. So yeah, the set loses hard to Zacian, but adding heatwave only serves to get you some more damage on one pokemon. The other top tier steel is shut down by dark pulse. Is it *really* worth giving up the utility of taunt or the revenge killing power of sucker punch for more chip on one threat? Overall, maybe. But on this set, no. It's actually hard to properly describe the effectiveness of sucker punch without just saying how awesome it is. It just improves or wins so many matchups. Even without investment, it does some serious damage. I use it in conjunction with M Ray E speed for some serious priority power. Taunt just shuts down any form of defensive play in general. Defensive Necrozma DM annoying you? Taunt and laugh as it runs away in fear. Some upstart Xerneas switching in on you and trying to Geomancy? Ha no. Literally any Arceus form that isn't fairy? Get wrecked. Zygarde trying to set up? Nope. Has this joke worn thin yet? Yes. Should I shut the fuck up, move on, and stop patronizing my reader? Absoutely

Now, on to Groudon. This set is my dedicated lead, and it will always do something important with proper play. The absolute ace in the hole of this set is thunder wave. It just cripples things worse then toxic can. Yeah sure, you can toxic a Mega Ray, but that's really not that important when he set a ddance up and has three turns to run train through your team. But if you paralyze it, then he's essentially dead. Same goes for Dynamax Yveltal, and Geomancy Xerneas. They are useless now. The next most important part is roar. Roar completely invalidates baton pass and setup sweepers who think they can just boost past the speed drop. It also serves to help you if some flying type tries to set up, like the aforementioned Rayquaza. The next two moves are standard, rocks and precipice blades. It obvious why rocks is there, and precipice blades is for chunking non flying types. The this set was actually originally for winning against other Pdons. My Pdon has 8 speed Evs, so that it outspeeds bulky don and will get the easy 2HKO, and he has max hp investment so that he can survive Precipice Blades from the faster Pdons that won't have any bulk and OHKO back A huge, huge benefit to this set is that it's kinda imposter proof. Yeah, ditto can precipice blades you but he can't really do anything else because you only have a ground move. So just switch ou to a flying type and you'll be good.. However, this set, like all lead pdons, has a propensity to die really early, but it will either take something out, cripple something and get rocks up, or live and fight another day if the lead is ray, because we all know that stupid fucking surf is coming. Sadly, there is one surefire, absolute counter for this set and that is STUPID FUCKING PRECIPICE BLADES MISSING TWICE TIMES IN A ROW AND LOSING ME THE GODDAMN GAME I SWEAR TO GOD IT HAPPENS WAY MORE THEN STATISTICALLY PROBABLE RNG LOVES FUCKING ME OVER MORE THEN IT HATES MAKING STONE EDGE HIT Precipice blades missing. It sure does suck when that happens.

So these two are my favorite anti meta sets, and if you've seen someone use these sets is was probably me. While I've seen some sucker punch Yveltal, it's pretty rare, but I have never seen anyone else use T wave Groudon. I've seen more people not know that he can learn T wave then actually use it. While I have little faith that anyone else will actually use these sets, because lets be real, I'm probably the only person to be crazy enough to use these. But, these sets are absolutely viable and I use them near the top of the ladder as key parts of my only team and it works extremely well. So, if you feel like having some fun with some non standard but effective sets, these are some you should definitely try.

 

[Rose]

Does anyone actually use Solgalium Z? I do on my offensive set for NDM and it sometimes works but I find that often don't get to use it because the target resists it or in the case of Yveltal you just get OHKOed. It has the benefit of the OHKO on Zacian and will sometimes kill from full health through the Dynamax for Xerneas, but it means that you can't Dynamax, which isn't really a problem for my team but is probably a huge deal overall.

Now that I have asked my question, I have some sets that I would like to put out there. Specifically, these two.

Groudown syndrome (Groudon-Primal) @ Red Orb
Ability: Desolate Land
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 244 HP / 252 Atk / 12 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Precipice Blades
- Roar
- Thunder Wave

Flying bacon (Yveltal) @ Life Orb
Ability: Dark Aura
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Dark Pulse
- Oblivion Wing
- Sucker Punch
- Taunt

Now, to preface this, you should know that taking weird, unused sets and making them work is my favorite thing to do. Taunt/Sucker punch may look like a bad set at first, but it really isn't. As a dynamax sweeper, yeah this set is trash. But that's not the point of it. The point is offensive utility, which this set has in spades. It may not dynamax sweep, but it can still sweep, just without using dynamax. So yeah, the set loses hard to Zacian, but adding heatwave only serves to get you some more damage on one pokemon. The other top tier steel is shut down by dark pulse. Is it *really* worth giving up the utility of taunt or the revenge killing power of sucker punch for more chip on one threat? Overall, maybe. But on this set, no. It's actually hard to properly describe the effectiveness of sucker punch without just saying how awesome it is. It just improves or wins so many matchups. Even without investment, it does some serious damage. I use it in conjunction with M Ray E speed for some serious priority power. Taunt just shuts down any form of defensive play in general. Defensive Necrozma DM annoying you? Taunt and laugh as it runs away in fear. Some upstart Xerneas switching in on you and trying to Geomancy? Ha no. Literally any Arceus form that isn't fairy? Get wrecked. Zygarde trying to set up? Nope. Has this joke worn thin yet? Yes. Should I shut the fuck up, move on, and stop patronizing my reader? Absoutely

Now, on to Groudon. This set is my dedicated lead, and it will always do something important with proper play. The absolute ace in the hole of this set is thunder wave. It just cripples things worse then toxic can. Yeah sure, you can toxic a Mega Ray, but that's really not that important when he set a ddance up and has three turns to run train through your team. But if you paralyze it, then he's essentially dead. Same goes for Dynamax Yveltal, and Geomancy Xerneas. They are useless now. The next most important part is roar. Roar completely invalidates baton pass and setup sweepers who think they can just boost past the speed drop. It also serves to help you if some flying type tries to set up, like the aforementioned Rayquaza. The next two moves are standard, rocks and precipice blades. It obvious why rocks is there, and precipice blades is for chunking non flying types. The this set was actually originally for winning against other Pdons. My Pdon has 8 speed Evs, so that it outspeeds bulky don and will get the easy 2HKO, and he has max hp investment so that he can survive Precipice Blades from the faster Pdons that won't have any bulk and OHKO back A huge, huge benefit to this set is that it's kinda imposter proof. Yeah, ditto can precipice blades you but he can't really do anything else because you only have a ground move. So just switch ou to a flying type and you'll be good.. However, this set, like all lead pdons, has a propensity to die really early, but it will either take something out, cripple something and get rocks up, or live and fight another day if the lead is ray, because we all know that stupid fucking surf is coming. Sadly, there is one surefire, absolute counter for this set and that is STUPID FUCKING PRECIPICE BLADES MISSING TWICE TIMES IN A ROW AND LOSING ME THE GODDAMN GAME I SWEAR TO GOD IT HAPPENS WAY MORE THEN STATISTICALLY PROBABLE RNG LOVES FUCKING ME OVER MORE THEN IT HATES MAKING STONE EDGE HIT Precipice blades missing. It sure does suck when that happens.

So these two are my favorite anti meta sets, and if you've seen someone use these sets is was probably me. While I've seen some sucker punch Yveltal, it's pretty rare, but I have never seen anyone else use T wave Groudon. I've seen more people not know that he can learn T wave then actually use it. While I have little faith that anyone else will actually use these sets, because lets be real, I'm probably the only person to be crazy enough to use these. But, these sets are absolutely viable and I use them near the top of the ladder as key parts of my only team and it works extremely well. So, if you feel like having some fun with some non standard but effective sets, these are some you should definitely try.

Solagalium Z can be used on specially defensive sets to more easily KO Dynamaxed Xerneas, but Leftovers or Rocky Helmet are generally superior items due to them allowing Dusk Mane to Dynamax.

Also note that this Primal Groudon set loses to Dynamax Xerneas after it has set up, and Groudon has switched in even one time.
+2 252+ SpA Fairy Aura Xerneas Max Starfall vs. 244 HP / 0 SpD Groudon-Primal: 341-402 (84.8 - 100%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

 

[Patricick]

Solagalium Z can be used on specially defensive sets to more easily KO Dynamaxed Xerneas, but Leftovers or Rocky Helmet are generally superior items due to them allowing Dusk Mane to Dynamax.

Also note that this Primal Groudon set loses to Dynamax Xerneas after it has set up, and Groudon has switched in even one time.
+2 252+ SpA Fairy Aura Xerneas Max Starfall vs. 244 HP / 0 SpD Groudon-Primal: 341-402 (84.8 - 100%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

This Groudon is not a Xerneas check. It usually dies in the first few turns after doing what it needs to do. It very rarely survives to the point where it could actually switch in. If your team needs a strong Xern check, then this Groudon is not the set you should use. This is instead my lead set. My team takes care of Xern well enough without Pdon, as I find that Xern is pretty easily worn down or offensively countered by anything that doesn't die in one hit. But anyways, thanks for the advice, I really appreciate it.

 

[WolfishOne]

So here is a team I have been using recently and getting loads of wins with.
Ditto however is the bane of this set

Eevee @ Eevium Z
Ability: Anticipation
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Last Resort
- Double Team
- Baton Pass
- Protect

Yes I use eevee pass deal with it


Xerneas @ Power Herb
Ability: Fairy Aura
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Geomancy
- Moonblast
- Psychic
- Thunder
Sometimes I use psychock to muscle pass chansey and blissey since even at +3 xerneas has a bad time


Groudon @ Red Orb
Ability: Desolate Land
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Careful Nature
- Precipice Blades
- Fire Punch
- Thunder Punch
- Rock Polish

Rayquaza @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Air Lock
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Ascent
- Earthquake
- V-create
- Outrage

Marshadow @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Technician
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Spectral Thief
- Close Combat
- Throat Chop
- Ice Punch
This is the big surprise of the set
It outspeeds zacian and after the eevee boosts cleanly ohkos it

Zygarde @ Leftovers
Ability: Power Construct
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 100 Atk / 56 Def / 100 SpD
Careful Nature
- Coil
- Dragon Dance
- Thousand Arrows
- Glare

Having all of them has been invaluable since most people keep their paralyzed mo in leaving them as setup fodder

 

[Rose]

So here is a team I have been using recently and getting loads of wins with.
Ditto however is the bane of this set

Eevee @ Eevium Z
Ability: Anticipation
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Last Resort
- Double Team
- Baton Pass
- Protect

Yes I use eevee pass deal with it


Xerneas @ Power Herb
Ability: Fairy Aura
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Geomancy
- Moonblast
- Psychic
- Thunder
Sometimes I use psychock to muscle pass chansey and blissey since even at +3 xerneas has a bad time


Groudon @ Red Orb
Ability: Desolate Land
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Careful Nature
- Precipice Blades
- Fire Punch
- Thunder Punch
- Rock Polish

Rayquaza @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Air Lock
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Ascent
- Earthquake
- V-create
- Outrage

Marshadow @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Technician
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Spectral Thief
- Close Combat
- Throat Chop
- Ice Punch
This is the big surprise of the set
It outspeeds zacian and after the eevee boosts cleanly ohkos it

Zygarde @ Leftovers
Ability: Power Construct
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 100 Atk / 56 Def / 100 SpD
Careful Nature
- Coil
- Dragon Dance
- Thousand Arrows
- Glare

Having all of them has been invaluable since most people keep their paralyzed mo in leaving them as setup fodder

By the way, the AG Team Bazar and Showcase is a better place for this kind of thing.

Also just want to say that Yveltal can 6-0 you, and this team struggles breaking physically defensive Dusk Mane. The sets are also weird .-.

 

[WolfishOne]

By the way, the AG Team Bazar and Showcase is a better place for this kind of thing.

Also just want to say that Yveltal can 6-0 you, and this team struggles breaking physically defensive Dusk Mane. The sets are also weird .-.

How so? A +3 xerneas will destroy Yveltal

 

[Rose]

How so? A +3 xerneas will destroy Yveltal

Dynamax Yveltal can easily tear this team apart with its powerful STAB max moves.

 

[Geysers]

How so? A +3 xerneas will destroy Yveltal

A slightly more comprehensive answer: In order to sweep, xerneas needs a setup turn. Yveltal won't give it one, and eevee can't live a hit from ygod either. Thus, Yveltal will kill everything before it can set up. Also, evopass is a really bad strategy. Please don't use it.

 

[Patricick]

So here is a team I have been using recently and getting loads of wins with.
Ditto however is the bane of this set

Eevee @ Eevium Z
Ability: Anticipation
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Last Resort
- Double Team
- Baton Pass
- Protect

Yes I use eevee pass deal with it


Xerneas @ Power Herb
Ability: Fairy Aura
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Geomancy
- Moonblast
- Psychic
- Thunder
Sometimes I use psychock to muscle pass chansey and blissey since even at +3 xerneas has a bad time


Groudon @ Red Orb
Ability: Desolate Land
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Careful Nature
- Precipice Blades
- Fire Punch
- Thunder Punch
- Rock Polish

Rayquaza @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Air Lock
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Ascent
- Earthquake
- V-create
- Outrage

Marshadow @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Technician
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Spectral Thief
- Close Combat
- Throat Chop
- Ice Punch
This is the big surprise of the set
It outspeeds zacian and after the eevee boosts cleanly ohkos it

Zygarde @ Leftovers
Ability: Power Construct
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 100 Atk / 56 Def / 100 SpD
Careful Nature
- Coil
- Dragon Dance
- Thousand Arrows
- Glare

Having all of them has been invaluable since most people keep their paralyzed mo in leaving them as setup fodder

Yo man, these sets need some work. As other people have said, Evoboost is bad. Please don't use it on any serious team. Your Xerneas set is fine, but your M ray and Marshadow sets are pretty bad. Scarf M ray is a gimmicky, bad set. It kills Zacian and that's about it. And I have absolutely no clue why you have scarf Marshadow, that's also a pretty bad set. Sash is way, way better as a revenge killer. On a more team-wide scale, having two scarfs is redundant. Groudon is not very good either, thunder punch is pretty useless on this set. Zygarde is the lat set I want to talk about, because having ddance and coil on one set is a bad idea. I would replace dragon dance with rest. Now obviously, this team isn't very good, but from what I can tell, you're newish, so that's kinda expected. You're good enough to know what moves are good but not to know what moves work well together. So, I just want to encourage you to keep playing and getting better. Try using the sample teams provided, figure out what you do and don't like, and switch around your mons to what works. You'll get a feel for the meta game landscape, and what's viable and what isn't. Teambuilding is something that comes over time. You have a basic competence that many newer players lack, you just need to hone your skills.

Here's some fixes to some of the sets you have

Groudon-

Groudon @ Red Orb
Ability: Desolate Land
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Precipice Blades
- Fire Punch
- Swords Dance
- Rock Polish

This is not the best Pdon set but I tried to keep the spirit of the set, so I added SD.

Marshadow-

Marshadow @ Focus Sash
Ability: Technician
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Spectral Thief
- Close Combat
- Shadow Sneak
- Rock Tomb

Shadow Sneak and Rock tomb work much, much better on this set and Ice punch/throat chop were kinda useless


Rayquaza @ Choice Band
Ability: Air Lock
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Ascent
- Earthquake
- V-create
- Outrage

This set isn't as good as the other one I'm gonna show but it's so much better then scarf and still keeps the spirit of the original set

Rayquaza @ Life Orb
Ability: Air Lock
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Ascent
- Extreme Speed
- V-create
- Dragon Dance

This is the bread and butter M Ray. You could replace V create with EQ but V create is better IMO.

Zygarde @ Leftovers
Ability: Power Construct
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpD/ 4 Spe
Careful Nature
- Coil
- Rest
- Thousand Arrows
- Glare

The EVs could definitely change depending on what you want, but SpD is best IMO because coil already boosts your attack and defense, and to get to Z complete you have to live an attack, but I am not the Zygarde expert. You could absolutely change the EVs if you want.

I hope that these fixed sets help you.

However, I'm not done. Guys, we need to help newcomers more. Of course he gets 6-0ed by Yveltal, basically every bad team does. Just saying that won't help anyone. I appreciate BananaLaddersPS for explaining why he gets swept by Yveltal, but we also need to explain how to fix it. We, as a community, just aren't very welcoming to newer players. This is mainly because we lack resources. For example, the Sample teams are hidden underneath a bunch of other threads, and most people don't even know about them. This is why we, as community members and players, have to step up and help out the newbies. So, if any new players have questions about anything, then you can always PM me, or alternatively ask on the simple answers simple questions thread.

 

[Kate]

Yo man, these sets need some work. As other people have said, Evoboost is bad. Please don't use it on any serious team. Your Xerneas set is fine, but your M ray and Marshadow sets are pretty bad. Scarf M ray is a gimmicky, bad set. It kills Zacian and that's about it. And I have absolutely no clue why you have scarf Marshadow, that's also a pretty bad set. Sash is way, way better as a revenge killer. On a more team-wide scale, having two scarfs is redundant. Groudon is not very good either, thunder punch is pretty useless on this set. Zygarde is the lat set I want to talk about, because having ddance and coil on one set is a bad idea. I would replace dragon dance with rest. Now obviously, this team isn't very good, but from what I can tell, you're newish, so that's kinda expected. You're good enough to know what moves are good but not to know what moves work well together. So, I just want to encourage you to keep playing and getting better. Try using the sample teams provided, figure out what you do and don't like, and switch around your mons to what works. You'll get a feel for the meta game landscape, and what's viable and what isn't. Teambuilding is something that comes over time. You have a basic competence that many newer players lack, you just need to hone your skills.




However, I'm not done. Guys, we need to help newcomers more. Of course he gets 6-0ed by Yveltal, basically every bad team does. Just saying that won't help anyone. I appreciate BananaLaddersPS for explaining why he gets swept by Yveltal, but we also need to explain how to fix it. We, as a community, just aren't very welcoming to newer players. This is mainly because we lack resources. For example, the Sample teams are hidden underneath a bunch of other threads, and most people don't even know about them. This is why we, as community members and players, have to step up and help out the newbies. So, if any new players have questions about anything, then you can always PM me, or alternatively ask on the simple answers simple questions thread.

Hey man, I'm going to try and be respectful here and answer this. When you're trying to fix a team, it's understandable to want to keep the original spirit of it, but you also have to be aware that your changes still leave him with a rather unviable team still. For instance, Sash Marsh is horrible on a team with zero hazard removal, his team lacks Rocks, Spdef Zygarde is pretty bad, Psychic Xerneas shouldn't ever be run over HP Fire. It's important to realize this team has little synergy at all, and reeks of random offensive mons mushed together. As a team rater, you should be aware of this and acknowledge this in your post.

Unfortunately, you also do not address how to avoid being 6-0ed by Xerneas, so it seems rather hypocritical to call out someone else for this. The Sample teams are also promoted on our Pokemon Showdown chatroom, and most players are happy to link it if someone needs teambuilding help. I would not say they are "hidden"; most players can find them with a tiny bit of asking around.

Here's where I'm going to try and not come off as an asshole. Look, from reading some of your posts, I can tell you aren't a bad player, but I would certainly not classify you as a player new members should seek out. A lot of the advice you give and sets you post are rather suboptimal. Most top players and active community members, such as myself, are more than willing to help out, give advice, and pass teams. Some newer players can be extremely rude and toxic about this however, so in general, a lot of people aren't as willing to help. I will admit that sometimes we act rather brash towards newer folks, but I assure anyone new reading this, we will help you to improve as long as you are respectful about it.

 

[Patricick]

Hey man, I'm going to try and be respectful here and answer this. When you're trying to fix a team, it's understandable to want to keep the original spirit of it, but you also have to be aware that your changes still leave him with a rather unviable team still. For instance, Sash Marsh is horrible on a team with zero hazard removal, his team lacks Rocks, Spdef Zygarde is pretty bad, Psychic Xerneas shouldn't ever be run over HP Fire. It's important to realize this team has little synergy at all, and reeks of random offensive mons mushed together. As a team rater, you should be aware of this and acknowledge this in your post.

Unfortunately, you also do not address how to avoid being 6-0ed by Xerneas, so it seems rather hypocritical to call out someone else for this. The Sample teams are also promoted on our Pokemon Showdown chatroom, and most players are happy to link it if someone needs teambuilding help. I would not say they are "hidden"; most players can find them with a tiny bit of asking around.

Here's where I'm going to try and not come off as an asshole. Look, from reading some of your posts, I can tell you aren't a bad player, but I would certainly not classify you as a player new members should seek out. A lot of the advice you give and sets you post are rather suboptimal. Most top players and active community members, such as myself, are more than willing to help out, give advice, and pass teams. Some newer players can be extremely rude and toxic about this however, so in general, a lot of people aren't as willing to help. I will admit that sometimes we act rather brash towards newer folks, but I assure anyone new reading this, we will help you to improve as long as you are respectful about it.

The purpose of my post was not to give him a viable team, it was to show him some examples of what the sets should look like. I wasn't trying to rate his team, because to do so would have been very, very cruel. There isn't really a nice way to tell someone that their team is garbage and every part of it is bad, which is the conclusion that I inevitably would've come to. His team would get swept by basically every competent player and team. If I had tried to fix his team, I would've just changed it all. Of course Marsash is bad on that team, literally everything would be. That's why I told him to go and get a sample team.

You are absolutely right, newer players probably shouldn't come to me for advice, especially considering the rest of this post lmao. But I've seen no one else offer so I'd rather new players ask me something then not at all. As for the part about it not being hidden, I think I didn't express that right. The vast majority of players will never come to the forums, or ask around on chat, they'll just play on Showdown and not even know about all the resources we have. To get to the sample teams, you have to 1. Know that the forums exist 2. Know how to get there and 3. know how to get to the proper thread. There's just a high bar of entry is all I'm trying to say.

In my opinion, calling my sets sub-optimal is a tiny bit unfair. They are definitely not the standard or meta sets. but they are absolutely effective. I'm not someone who likes using the standard set for all my pokemon, it's just not who I am as a person. I experiment with a bunch of sets, and settle on the ones that work the most. But, I do agree that some of my sets were sub-optimal. I still stand by my Yveltal and especially my Pdon set but most of my others don't really hold up.





Now, time to do my favorite thing and make this about me. I'm not someone who only plays one tier. I go around and play every tier. Nat Dex Ag was one of the hardest to get into because there really wasn't that much information on the forums. There were sample teams and the viability rankings and the metagame discussion, and I guess the simple questions thread and that was about it. I realize now that I could've joined chat but I didn't know that at the time. The only reason I even came here was because I played Ubers a bunch and wanted to try out Nat Dex. If I didn't enjoy playing this tier so much then I wouldn't have even bothered. IMO, there needs to be a newcomer guide, because I know that would've helped so much. I still, to this day, don't know the EVs for some popular sets. Partly because I don't use them, and partly because I never knew how to get the EVs. Again, I now know that I could ask chat but I didn't know that at the time.

I'll give an example. If I recall correctly, my first post on this forum was a nom for Zacian to move up. In hindsight I can say that it was a really bad nomination, caused by inexperience, but no one explained that to me. People said "Your nom is shit" and never really explained why. As a new player it was really disheartening. I know a lot more now but I still have so much more to learn and I'm sure that I'm going to regret some of my posts now in the future when I look back. I used to play 1v1 in gen 7 and the community was definitely a lot different. People would explain to you why your post was bad, even if it was in a rude way. It made you feel like shit but you got better and learned more just by interacting with the forums. It feels like I go on the forums because it's what I normally do when I play a tier, and not for any competitive reason.
Honestly, that feeling is probably why this is going to be one of my last posts in Nat Dex. I'll probably move on to some other meta game. So guys, it's been... interesting. And I hope as many of you were scarred by my profile picture as possible. I just wanted to get my thoughts out about the forums before I go. I know all none of you will miss me, so please, try and hold your tears until after I'm gone. I'm comfortable in the fact that I made no difference and no one would notice that I'm gone if I didn't make this post. Take care.