Ho-Oh, formally known as Ho-Oh MY GOD THAT THINGS UBER!

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_Zero1

Okay, the thing that really defines a Pokemon's tier is if there are enough counters for it in that given tier. This isn't really the rule, but its sort of common sense. SkarmBliss aren't Uber because they are easily countered in OU, but without the appropriate counters, they might as well be Ubers. Taking on a Heracross without a counter could end with you being 6-0'd. Going against a Garchomp without an Ice type is pretty much death. The same thing is beginning to apply for Manaphy, so it seems. The point that I'm making here is that Ho-Oh could potentially be OU, seeing as how it has many many many counters that every team is most likely packing anyway.

Base Stats: 106 | 130 | 90 | 110 | 154 | 90 | (Ho Oh)
Base Stats: 108 | 130 | 95 | 80 | 85 | 102 | (Garchomp)

As you could see, Ho-Oh's base stats make it appear to be very versatile. It has 130 base attack to go with its 90 base speed, and an OK physical movepool. Sacred Fire, EQ, Aerial Ace, and Roost seems to be the only physical sweeper set that it could pull off. You would obviously have to make with Jolly with that lacking Speed stat. Garchomp could do the same thing with a better moveset to run off of, SD, as well as better Spd. This Ho-Oh set is walled by a few things, while Garchomp always hits everything at least neutral. The thing is, Ho-Oh has some massively better SpDef to work with, meaning the speed isnt really a HUGE problem.

Ho-Oh, as I said before, does have some versatility. The thing could also go special sweeper, losing one of its primary attacks, but still a decent option. Calm Mind, Thunderbolt, Flamethrower/Overheat, Filler seems to be the most common set. This is actually a pretty good idea since you could pump its HP and Defense a bunch without sacrificing SpAtk. Spd doesn't need to be worried about when using a bulky sweeper like this. This is an interesting way to give justification for his Uber-ness, but Stealth Rock makes its usefulness near none. It can't switch in ever so therefore it can't set up Calm Mind. Its defenses could be 999 999 999 if it wants, 2 switchins and its done.

The last notable thing about Ho-Oh is its huge support movepool. It learns CM, Reflect, Roost, Charge Beam, Sunny Day, Thunder wave, Sub (101 HP subs are hawt), Light Screen, Rain Dance, Sunny Day, Rain Dance, Toxic, Whirlwind. Alone, this is laughed at by Bronzong, a Pokemon that could do about 85% of these things with not nearly as many weaknesses. The others could be stuffed on any Pokemon here and there. The thing is, Stealth Rock rapes any support set too, since it will get phazed away and then won't have the opportunity to switch back in. Besides, support Mon's that have such common huge weaknesses rarely see much (if any) use at all...

This concludes my discussion starter on Ho-Oh. Discuss...
 
Of course, on the other side of the fence, who needs to switch in when dear ol' Ho-Oh can just ram a Sacred Fire right into any switch-in and prolly give it enough of a dent to make it think twice about hanging around, especially if that good ol' 50% chance of burning comes into play. And, of course, Recover/Roost lets it deal with damage.

And, of course, 130/110 attack stats means it can be a perfectly hot mixed sweeper. And, of course, 106 HP and 154 SpDef screams "switch me in on a special attacker, because they won't dent me."

Honestly, I think Stealth Rock hype is starting to go way too far.
 
Stealth Rock does not magically make Sacred Fire or Ho-oh or whatever his name is not an Uber.
 
Meh, its not really SR hype. There are definitely some awesome Ho-Oh counters out there in OU. Regirock, Rhyperior, pretty much anything with good Defenses / HP that resists fire and Stone Edges. Stealth Rock + Roar is beautiful when it comes to countering Ho-Oh, and damn near every team is packing it. Now, additionally, Ho-Oh is in the same boat as TTar when it comes to Uber. TTars Def rapes Ho-Ohs and his SpDef is right up against it. Hes the example i should've used, but I was in a rush sort of... REALLY common 4x weaknesses on both, great attack stats, only TTar doesn't have that nasty stealth rock problem and gets an attack-upper (as well as a speed upper) to compete with Ho-Oh's Roost.
 
The ability to use Ho-oh without getting raped by SR is good enough of a reason to load your team with a good Rapid Spinner (hi im Donphan I resist r0k and elec. Also I am Starmie I resist water)

Ho-oh is still a beast. The only pokemon I can can think of who would like to switch in is Suicune or Milotic. Roost is a fun new toy for Ho-oh, especially becayse it allows it to say "LOL Tbolt and IBeam"

106/90/154 Defenses are nothing to complain about either.

Here's the thing, Ho-oh centralizes the Metagame if allowed in. Ho-oh use will be inversely proportional to Stealth Rock use. The less SR sees play, the more Ho-oh will. The more SR sees play, the less Ho-oh will. 4x weaks don't hamper Mence, Garchomp, and TTar, they aren't going to hamper Ho-oh much either.

CB Ho-oh is a monstrosity. So is Life Orb Ho-oh.

The trouble is, the pokemon with decent defense and fire resist greatly dislike burn, and the fire types that could switch in to SF get mauled by EQ. That really only leaves bulky waters(not Swampert) as legitimate counters. And then Ho-oh starts slinging Thunderbolts or Thunder. Suprise! Its Specs-Oh.
 
Ho-Oh is certainly a giant threat in any environment where he's allowed to participate. Massive stats do make him an excellent mixed sweeper, and I believe the problem is he feels a lot like Salamence in some regards: It's almost impossible to tell off the bat what it'll bring to bear (special, or physical sweep in the case of Salamence, add some calm mind/sunnyday sets for Ho-oh). Not to mention reliable rock OHKOs are much harder to come by than ice-type ones, although they are much more common than they used to be.

I firmly believe it's entirely possible to see a metagame where Ho-oh is played. As an Uber he's almost entirely outgunned, but he brings a huge amount of versatility and a huge base statpool to the table. Much as I disagree with the idea of tiered play as the end-all of Pokemon, and encourage versatility as much as possible... he's a beast. He's always _been_ a beast, and his new physical power makes him more so. His presence would create a huge amount of popularity for bulky waters, and rhyperior... although that's not entirely a bad thing.

Seems to me though, it's the versatility that would encourage Ho-oh to stay where he is, outside the realm of normal play. Very few pokemon bring that kind of versatility to the table, and fewer still pack that versatility into a sturdy, hard hitting, reasonably fast body.
 
_Zero1 said:
I like your intricate reasoning to support your opinion... Oh wait, whats that? You dont have any? :o lol.
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Just because there's something new, or several something's new, to counter Ho-Oh, doesn't automatically make him so weak he's usable. Arceus is so powerful it can damn near counter everything, but that doesn't mean half the stuff in Ubers is shifting down a tier. It just means you have to adapt. Ho-Oh is still perfectly viable in Ubers. that's what he meant, which you would've known if you weren't too busy making yourself look stupid. Besides which, Ho-Oh's counterablility is still up in the air as one of those things that will be tested when Competitor comes out, so don't worry about it.
 
You forget that between these two switch ins that kill Ho-oh, it can use Roost or Recover to heal it all right back. The threat of Sacred Fire Burn makes switching in a physical attacker dangerous, and Ho-oh's massive Special Defense and high HP means even a Water type isn't going to do much to it. In fact, Ho-oh can survive a Kyogre Surf in the Rain with only half of its EVs used up, so what exactly do you think Milotic is going to do to it? Then factor in the threat of the CM set (which really does force you to get in a Pokemon that can use a STAB Rock Attack, because you'll need 350 Attack to even have a chance at a OHKO with Rock Slide if it doesn't have STAB). What will you do about Flamethrower, Thunderbolt / Sunny Day, Calm Mind / Solarbeam, Recover / Roost? Seems pretty devastating.

Also bulky Waters do NOT counter Ho-oh. Suicune's Surf is a 4HKO on max HP Ho-oh, 3-4HKO on 0 HP Ho-oh.
 
Sacred Fire, EQ, Aerial Ace, and Roost seems to be the only physical sweeper set that it could pull off. You would obviously have to make with Jolly with that lacking Speed stat. Garchomp could do the same thing with a better moveset to run off of, SD, as well as better Spd. This Ho-Oh set is walled by a few things, while Garchomp always hits everything at least neutral.
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I believe the standard set (at least in the analysis) has _Return_ instead of Aerial Ace. I don't see where Aerial Ace does any good to Ho Oh, especially when Return does more damage, aside from where you'd use Sacred Fire anyway. The only exception I see are fighting pokemon, who usually have pretty poor defenses and are raped by Sacred Fire anyway, and if they survive, they usually don't like the 50% chance of burn either.

I like your intricate reasoning to support your opinion... Oh wait, whats that? You dont have any? :o lol.
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And I'd like to reverse and say you have made a very fine counterpoint. </sarcasm> Please man, this is a very professional forum and such comments are not necessary. If you want us to treat you with respect, then treat everyone with respect.

The problem with Ho-Oh and many other Ubers I see is that they are difficult or in some cases impossible to reliably counter. Stealth Rocks is easily parried by a rapid spinner and should not be a problem for any team with Ho Oh on them. And even then, the pokemon laying down Stealth Rocks doesn't help _after_ Ho-Oh is on the field.
 
Ho-Oh's low speed makes it so that it could only switch in on a special attacker, and even then, water and electric still hit it for something... It'd probably be enough (with SR) to put it into low yellow / high red, then its mediocre speed would let it get hit again before Roost. Unless you Scarf you're Ho-Oh, in which case you're not at such a major advantage... If it switches into a physical attack, its likely to get OHKO'd if your 252 252 6ing it, and if not, it will get 2HKO'd guaranteed with stealth rock support.
 
Ho-oh's stats allow it to be used recklessly and still be successful. As stated earlier it can switch into special Pokes and EXPECT to beat them, especially considering it resists Fire Blast AND Focus Blast. Thunder/Hydro Pump are rarely seen.

Recover completely negates Stealth Rock against anything not faster (90 speed isn't bad per se) and also makes Life Orb all the more viable.

Also it outspeeds most things that would want to phase it out and it successfully beats most of the common metagame walls like Skarm and even makes a decent Suicune counter with Sunny Day.
 
TSPhoenix said:
Recover completely negates Stealth Rock against anything not faster (90 speed isn't bad per se) and also makes Life Orb all the more viable.
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Also, with his massive base attacks in both stats, you can pretty much assure that it will pick a speed boosting nature rather than an attack boosting nature, to help shore up his "low" speed.

TSPhoenix said:
Also it outspeeds most things that would want to phase it out and it successfully beats most of the common metagame walls like Skarm and even makes a decent Suicune counter with Sunny Day.
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The major concern with the walls as well is that until it attacks, it's difficult to tell which wall to bring in against it, let alone if it destroys the physical/special wall you're bringing.

The more I think about it, the less I like the idea of non-uber tier Ho-Oh.
 
Dalamar789 said:
Just because there's something new, or several something's new, to counter Ho-Oh, doesn't automatically make him so weak he's usable. Arceus is so powerful it can damn near counter everything, but that doesn't mean half the stuff in Ubers is shifting down a tier. It just means you have to adapt. Ho-Oh is still perfectly viable in Ubers. that's what he meant, which you would've known if you weren't too busy making yourself look stupid. Besides which, Ho-Oh's counterablility is still up in the air as one of those things that will be tested when Competitor comes out, so don't worry about it.
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This.

Yeah, Regirock and Rhyperior and Garchomp all sound like great counters, until Sacred Fire burns their ass, rendering them near useless on whatever counter you switch in. Ho-oh can that Roost to scout for a switch to a Cleric (All of which Ho-oh mauls, with the exception of Thick Fat Miltank.)

Not to mention Ho-oh can Pressure stall Stone Edge easily. The only threat to Ho-oh after that is Stealth Rock, and as I said before, if you're using Ho-oh, bringing Donphan and Starmie for the ride doesn't hurt. Boltbeam? Hiya Magnezone.

Competitor testing will settle this. Until then I don't think the advent of Stealth Rock is going to affect anything. Anyone using Ho-oh sees the massive SR weak and will respond with spinners accordingly. Stone Edge is unreliable and has 4 uses max with PP Up, 3 without, assuming it is never launched on any pokemon other than Ho-oh.
 
okay... i guess i get it but its still a possibility. Ho Oh would be beast in OU but so is TTar. I believe that if Ho-Oh stays in the Uber tier, then TTar pretty much deserves a spot in there too. I would post reasoning but its basically self explanitory and uses most of the same reasoning you all are using to prove that Ho-Oh should stay Uber. His weaknesses aren't everywhere, they are easily predicted, his defenses and attack stats are almost the equivalent of Ho-Oh's, etc...
 
Yeah, Regirock and Rhyperior and Garchomp all sound like great counters, until Sacred Fire burns their ass, rendering them near useless on whatever counter you switch in.
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Or you can leave Ho-Oh in there and Earthquake them. (well, the first 2 anyway).
 
okay... i guess i get it but its still a possibility. Ho Oh would be beast in OU but so is TTar. I believe that if Ho-Oh stays in the Uber tier, then TTar pretty much deserves a spot in there too. I would post reasoning but its basically self explanitory and uses most of the same reasoning you all are using to prove that Ho-Oh should stay Uber. His weaknesses aren't everywhere, they are easily predicted, his defenses and attack stats are almost the equivalent of Ho-Oh's, etc...
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Thats not how things are done here. First, Competitor comes out to test and speed up the meta-game. _THEN_, it is decided who is uber or not.
 
Gliscor/Donphan/Hippowdon can handle most versions of Tyranitar, but there is no clear counter in OU for Ho-Oh. The burn chance of Sacred Fire would force a lot of teams to carry Aromatherapy, and centralization makes for a bad metagame. :P
 
Dragontamer said:
Thats not how things are done here. First, Competitor comes out to test and speed up the meta-game. _THEN_, it is decided who is uber or not.
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Thats true, i know that... All I'm saying is that Ho-Oh and TTar are incredibly similar when you think about it. Its not guaranteed that they will end up together, but its possible. Everything that we could post at this point is just opinion as well as evidence to support said opinion. As you've said, nothing is definite until competitor comes out.
 
Thats true, i know that... All I'm saying is that Ho-Oh and TTar are incredibly similar when you think about it.
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Aside from a typing with 4x weakness (not even the _same_ 4x weakness), how is Ho-Oh similar to TTar? T-Tar sets up a team with SandStream, while Ho-Oh sweeps. Ho-Oh can safely switch in on a popular physical attack: Earthquake. T-Tar has no such immunities. (Though I admit, they both have the defenses to take a neutral or even 2x hit)

I mean, yeah, I can make any two pokemon seem similar if I try really hard. Just like I can make any two pokemon seem different. But whether or not T-Tar acts like Ho-oh is not the question. It is whether or not T-Tar over-centralizes the metagame.

And that is an argument completely orthogonal to the Ho-oh/T-Tar similarity debate. They have nothing to do with each other. Proving that T-Tar is like Ho-oh does not prove that Ho-oh is OU, nor does it prove that T-Tar is Uber. (assuming that is their current categories of course)
 
_Zero1 said:
okay... i guess i get it but its still a possibility. Ho Oh would be beast in OU but so is TTar. I believe that if Ho-Oh stays in the Uber tier, then TTar pretty much deserves a spot in there too. I would post reasoning but its basically self explanitory and uses most of the same reasoning you all are using to prove that Ho-Oh should stay Uber. His weaknesses aren't everywhere, they are easily predicted, his defenses and attack stats are almost the equivalent of Ho-Oh's, etc...
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LOL. Why should TTar move up when it is still slow and easily predicted. Rhyperior really gives TTar a hard time, and TTar doesn't have room for Surf. Not to mention now that Grass types have reliable, powerful grass moves TTar took a hit. TTar still can't threaten any of its Advance counters without an attack boost. By contrast, Ho-oh still doesn't have any completely reliable OU counters.

And please don't tell me Ho-oh is slow too. +Speed Ho-oh is faster than neutral nature Gengar. It has plenty of low-risk switchins (Grass types, Bugs, Heracross and Infernape, Metagross, basically every fire type, Glaceon, most mid-level special attackers.) and again, anyone using Ho-oh will stack there team with spinners. Ho-oh is awesome enough to allow it.
 
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