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The thing about the arena is that you're locked in. If we assume no pokemon can beat every other pokemon then you eventually end up in a lead matchup where you just lose without accomplishing anything. And that's fine because you maybe down 2 to 3 but your follow up pokemon covers the weakness of the first, but now you are in the same situation as the second pokemon is random so it might just be one that your second pokemon cannot beat. So you send out your third carefully picked pokemon that covers that weakness. But suprise their third pokemon is also random and you are down to one pokemon so by pure luck of the order they send their pokemon out in, you might just lose.
So one proposed idea is that we accept we can't beat everything and sacrifice a move slot in order to set up the next pokemon so there are fewer things it loses to.
Hello everyone, I am trying to hit some records in the Battle Dome with my team just for the fun of it. I have so far managed to clear 30 BT with my Team. I will continue to update this as I will be reaching notable milestones. My main goal is to go as far as I can and hopefully hit the 100 BT won.
Latias @ Lum Berry
Level: 100
Nature: Timid
Gender: Female
Shiny: No
IVs: 21/9/31/31/26/31
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Sp.Atk. / 252 Spe.
-Calm Mind
-Dragon Claw
-Substitute
-Recover
I decided that I wanted to use Slaking for Dome since he can 1-shot a disgusting amount of Pokemon. I wanted to use a bulky water type Pokemon as a switch in to Rock and Steel types that can prove troublesome and since I hadn't access to a good Suicune (those from FR/LG are IV bugged) I opted for Milotic. The comparison between the two is an interesting subject and once done I would provide some more info. Since I didn't like the idea of a mono attacking-Sub Milotic I gave my trusty Latias the anti-HAX/anti-Explosion role.
The game plan is simple: Find quick KO's with Slaking/ Drown with Surf Steels and Rocks that Slaking can't easily KO while stalling Waters and when the AI tries to play dirty with 1-hit-KO moves/Explosion/Fake Out/etc have Latias stop them on their tracks. This is easier said than done since Latias herself has trouble staying alive especially vs Lapras/Walrein that carry both Sheer Cold/Ice types moves.
Here's a quick post with description about the new mono Flying team with Gligar and Gyarados, as requested on YouTube. I finally got a team together that burns through a couple of streaks on average!
The team accepts BoltBeam is simply unwallable, so it resorts to a strategy involving Torment and a Gyarados who is very bulky on the Special side to take advantage of any non-Thunderbolt Special Attack the likes of Starmie like to use. Gligar walls those Electric-types, and very importantly, Regice after Torment, whose Ice Beam is too strong for even Gyarados to set up on.
CORONABAT is the perfect Torment lead mono-Flying can provide; with the given EV's it always survives QC Rhydon's Rock Slide and never flinches due to Inner Focus as a bonus (also handy against Fake Out users). Crobat takes powerful Special Attacks too, such as Latios' Psychic and the most powerful Thunderbolts. It really is surprisingly bulky due to its good base HP. It outspeeds everything but Timid Jolteon (which is usually Gligar fodder anyway, like all Jolteon unless they get really lucky with Bite or Attract). Thief steals Quick Claws as usual; Crobat doesn't really need another item anyway. Haze is very useful is the opponent decides to Curse up along Gyarados or Gligar, for example, but it is also very useful against Dragon Dance Salamence, which is still outsped by Crobat after one Dragon Dance. Sludge Bomb is a good finishing move, Aerial Ace might help against stupid Double Teamers, although Haze should help with those already, and Toxic provides general utility with Torment, Protect and Substitute on the team. I personally use Sludge Bomb, as it sometimes useful to beat CurseLax in a pinch, or at least force it to use Rest. I guess Screech could be useful as well!
Being surprisingly bulky, especially after Intimidate, Gyarados is the go-to setup Pokémon for nearly all leads. Intimidate can also be useful before setting up Gligar, e.g. against Drill Peck Zapdos.
Even at +6, however, it doesn't beat all threats, such as Regirock and Steelix. It doesn't blast through Skarmory either, but the latter is usually not a threat offensively. Luckily, Gligar's typing really helps against Regirock and Steelix; it can usually take them 1v1, certainly after Gyarados dents them. Using Earthquake on this set would be nice for sure, but you really need the stalling capacity of Protect AND Substitute to take full advantage of Leftovers and Torment.
This is a mean sweeper, but its low stats leave much to be desired. For example, it doesn't OHKO threats like Latios even at +6 without using another Hidden Power. HP[Rock] is optimal as far as I've tested; you really don't want to lose against a Zapdos for example, one of the Pokémon Gligar of all Flying-types should be able to handle. The synergy with EQ is just best, and it beats a lot of Pokémon with high base stats such as legendary birds. Sometimes it is necessary to risk getting into Salac range without a Substitute to get off one more Swords Dance; at +4 it fails to OHKO a lot of stuff. Hyper Cutter is surprisingly useful against Intimidate!
After a pretty much disappointing Battle Dome run I ended up getting a bit burned out from playing Pokemon as a whole and took a necessary break from it. Now that I am back on playing Pokemon, of course, I had to return to my favorite generation of all time. I chose a facility that I previously didn't played so much before and Arena is indeed one of the most interesting ones. You can't switch but your Pokemon are chosen in a straight order and you get 3 turns to KO an opponent before the judge decided the outcome based on your move choices, accuracy and HP left. I would probably say Arena is one of the hardest since it eliminates one of the hardcore mechanics of the game which is switching out from an unfavorable match-up.
My initial Arena Team was something similar to this. I used Sub DD bulky Mence as a lead to grab an advantage with Metagross lined up next in case Ice types showed at the first slot and Starmie providing the super-effective coverage it is known for. Team was overall solid, but I wanted to try something else.
The biggest advantage Latios has as a lead over Salamence is that it gains immediate fire power without requiring multiple boosts. Most of the time, one Calm Mind is more than enough to sweep through various opponents which feels completely different from what Salamence can offer who needs more than 1 DD to sweep through teams. I passed Salamence to the last slot since I felt that this set will take more advantage as a late-game sweeper.
Well I was pretty excited when I started to use Latios, however, having a couple of losses where I ended up losing to a random burn from Fire Punch in Metagross and Latios getting haxed by crits, really had me thinking on a couple of potential changes. The biggest one was Gengar to which I started using a Sub Destiny Bond set with Lum Berry while having Metagross carrying its Metal Coat. However, after another loss to which I died due to Metagross burning from a Fire Punch from Gengar 4, I felt that the Lum belonged to him instead. Of course, this meant that the only item I could somehow use to not waste an item slot and not have Gengar wear something useless was a Petaya Berry. Salamence remained unchanged and after these changes, I can say the team massively improved and I got to the Gold rematch on my 2nd attempt.
This was one of the biggest changes I had to do with the team but after having a discussion with submenceisop on the Discord, I convinced myself on making the change after talking to him about his previous experiences on the Arena. Gengar is pretty much a dominant threat on this facility for a good reason. Great defensive typing, Levitate and its Speed are its biggest attributes but the most important one is Destiny Bond. I can't stress enough how godly and broken this move is as it guarantees that Gengar will take down anything that is not faster than it and has enough power to take it down (which is not a huge barrier lol). But yeah, it does similarly to what Latios did on the first version of the team, however, Destiny Bond is truly the icing on the cake. Substitute is to Protect Gengar from status and annoying stat drops which comes in handy while also lowering your health in case you want something weak like Umbreon to guarantee it can take down Gengar and Destiny Bond it. Also, Substitute triggers the Petaya Berry on its third use due to the even number in the HP stat and grants a SpA boost that can come in handy and help Gengar. Other than that, Ice Punch and Thunderbolt makes for that necessary BoltBeam coverage combo that is too goo to pass on a lead.
220 Speed allows Gengar to outspeed all Sceptile / Dugtrio sets meaning that only Jolteon and Crobat can outspeed it. Max SpA is there to maximize the damage output and guarantee some KOs like Salamence 4. The rest goes into HP which gives 140 HP on Gengar and guarantees the Petaya to trigger upon its third Substitute use.
XBOX (Metagross) @ Lum Berry
EVs: 44 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def / 4 SpD / 204 Spe
Ability: Clear Body
Level: 50
Shiny: Yes
Adamant Nature
- Brick Break
- Earthquake
- Shadow Ball
- Meteor Mash
Metagross is your go-to physical sweeper to accompany Latios on a sweep. Whenever Latios falls to Ice types or hax, Metagross comes as the best possible back up for it. Meteor Mash will smash Pokemon like Articuno, Jynx and Glalie into pieces. Brick Break is to finish off Lapras and Walrein in case that they survive through Latios while also being the most accurate option vs Umbreon and Blissey without risking a MM miss. Shadow Ball is for Ghost types like Dusclops and Earthquake rounds up the coverage vs slower fire types and Steel types. Because using a Choice Band on a facility that disables switching is never a good thing, the Lum Berry was used instead. While weaker, the Lum guarantees Metagross can win certain match-ups like Greta's Gold Gengar and heal from Hypnosis while curing random status ailments. It helps a lot specially since Metagross is crippled heavily by paralysis and burn.
204 Spe allows Metagross to be faster than all Jynx sets who are 0 Spe neutral. This means that you can smash them into pieces before Metagross is put to sleep (just remember that Jynx 3 has QC, so watch out for it). Max Attack for power, and the rest into HP and defenses to get an odd HP number and overall increase its bulk.
I wasn't initially convinced on Salamence's ability to lead due to how incredibly difficult it is to set up multiple DD on only 3 turns and let alone the lack of raw power due to a weak STAB. However, Salamence's place on the squad is justified as a back up sweeper who can deal next turn with the Fire types that can beat Metagross while Intimidate + immunity to Ground helps it. Substitute makes Salamence immune to status and it's a guaranteed way to win vs Greta's Umbreon lead since status spammers will overall keep using the move and you get a free DD + Sub before damaging them which is very valuable on this facility to build up on boosts. AERO-ASS is your most reliable STAB and a sure fire way to win vs evasion spammers who get lucky enough to build on evasion boosts while guaranteeing Skill points on the judgement area. It's weak but it never misses and this is valuable on Battle Arena. Earthquake is just there to complement the coverage and exterminate Fire types like Arcanine and Houndoom.
172 HP EVs gives 192 HP which is a perfect Leftovers number and translates into recovering the lost HP from a Substitute in 4 turns. 198 Atk gives the same number in the stat and since it's a jump point in Attack it massively influences on getting the highest chance possible to 2HKO Skarmory at +6 with Aerial Ace. 140 Spe is used to outspeed all Heracross sets and kill them with AERO-ASS.
As an additional note, Salamence is chosen as a lead on the 4th round before you reach the 28th battle as you'll want the best lead matchup vs her Heracross which is singehandedly destroyed by Sub Mence. Metagross always remains on the 2nd slot.
Unfortunately my streak has finally ended at 56 BTs. As expected from my theorycrafting HAX was the teams major weakness and it became apparent in the last battle. I have included the Video of my loss.
Prior to my loss at around 50 BTs I tried to patch some of my teams issues with my new Latias which I had just RNGed. The old one had serious trouble against most 1-hit-KO/Explosion since not only she had to play the guessing game perfectly she was quickly worn down even from their normal attacks that aimed her weaker defensive side. Additionally Zapdos Drill Peck was also problematic and HAX heavy teams with Skarmory were a pain to deal. The new defensive Latias could come vs those Pokemon and safely win the attrition war.
The new Latias had better HP and Sp.Defence IVs 30/15/30/31/31/31 and was given the following EVs: 172 HP/ 104 Def./ 4 Sp.Atk. / 4 Sp.Def / 220 Spe. The EV's are a copy from Adedede Latios!
Still even with this upgrade the team ended up losing from a Horn Drill/QC Rhydon which hit 2 times in a row (and activated QC the second time). The opponent had Aggron/Rhydon/Milotic. I didn't want to bring Latias to the fight because she wouldn't have the easiest of times setting up against Aggron/Rhydon and Milotic with IB could also be problematic. That's why I picked Slaking/Milotic hoping he would go for Aggron/Milotic. If he picked Rhydon I though I have a chance to 1-shot it with Surf and he HornDrill me I could try to EQ it and hope. Unfortunately not only he hitted the first Horn Drill he also had a QC activation to end my Slaking before even trying..
Team: The team performed as expected with some average results. It is a consistent team but prone to HAX and so far I hadn't been able to find a way to solve those issues. I think with some luck I could have hit around ~70 to ~80 BT but I doubt it could have pushed much longer. 56 BTs leaves me with some bitter feelings as I hoped I could have reached higher. Back to the drawing board I guess! Slaking: Slaking is the go-to Pokemon if someone is aiming for hitting some records in Dome. I have no comments on this one it's already covered up by so many players. It can 1 shot a large amount of Pokemon and has great coverage. Milotic: My beloved Milotic had been a solid Pokemon in the Dome. It is a great partner for Slaking but struggles to check Walrein/Lapras if carrying Sheer Cold. That's the main reason I consider Milotic totally outclassed in it's role as a bulky Water from Suicune. One could go the mono-Surf/Sub set but this leaves Milotic helpless vs Vaporeon which is the case for Suicune as well but you can turn the tables with Pressure. Latias: Different Pokemon, same story. As an anti-HAX Pokemon Latias is subpar to say the least. She is weak to Ice attacks from Lapras/Walrein, doesn't resist Rock attacks from Regirock/Rhydon that has Explosion/Horn Drill. This means she can't safely fulfill her role and all to often I was reluctant to pick her in the draft.
As a conclusion I would like to add that Suicune is along Slaking a Tier S+ Pokemon for Dome. The two of them create such a powerfull offensive-Defensive core while providing important anti-HAX protection in just one Pokemon (Suicune). Since I don't have access to a good Suicune I have to work with something else.
I will take a break from Dome I think and try to RNG some Pokemons for a while. I will try to create a new team for Dome at some point and go for the 100BTs. That's all for now!
I had the inspiration to try a team centered around Gengar, Suicune and Umbreon and I've reached 140 wins. This team has a fast Gengar lead with bolt/punch coverage, which hits a large range of threats, namely DD users and grass types. Gengar makes a great lead for it's great speed and immunities and is only hit by Sheer cold among the ohko moves. The last two support moves in destiny bond and perish song helps force out double team spammers, fat walls that Suicune has a hard time breaking and in the worst case scenario- allows me to trade 1 for 1.
Suicune is the phys def wall and set up sweeper on the team.
The third slot is Umbreon, which is the special wall of the team and is necessary for improving the matchup against CM psychic types. Torment and protect allows you to safely stall out dangerous moves and makes it even easier for Suicune to set up. Wish and toxic work exceptionally well with the former two moves. I have lum berry on Umbreon, as it has no reliable way to cure status without rest. The previous ev spread I've used for Umbreon was not bulky enough on the special side, even with it's solid natural bulk. I kept the hp investment at 180 hp evs (hits 193 hp, 16+1 leftovers number), but I decided to go with maximum special defense with a Calm nature to make sure it can handle the threats I need it to. It has 44 speed evs to outspeed Ludicolo and the rest in defense. It's not quite Blissey level in terms of tankiness, but it gets the job done. It even provides massive wishes to Suicune, which really helps a lot when trying to stall.
I've actually had a really easy time racking up wins with this team. The threats are similar to my previous team, but I have a lot less frustration trying to break through double team spammers and fat stuff. Unfortunately, this team actually has some difficulty with Anabel. Best way is to perish song turn 1 to force out Raikou. Toxic stall Latios, pp stall out all of the t-bolts from Raikou and set up with Suicune for the win.
Threatlist
Snorlax
Haxdon, Haxrein, Lapras
Heracross( focus band/bright powder)- potential d-bond target
Metagross ( can beat me with some hax, namely MM attack raises)
Mixed electrics with fighting coverage can be a problem( although Umbreon can handle most with torment and toxic)
Explosion users
I would like to report my on going streak of 42 in the battle palace lv 50. My previous streak finished at either 56 or 61 (I think I made an edit on my previous post). This team showcases my new essential team building consideration- mixed bulk and mixed offenses. This overcomes mirror coat and counter users while helping break walls that one higher defensive stat. Anyway here is the new team and strategy:
Moltres, Lum berry
Hardy, 177, 105, 100, 153, 110, 110
(10 Vitamins in each stat)
Wil-o-wisp
Morning sun
Flamethrower
Aerial ace
Meganium, leftovers
Sassy, 168, 113, 123, 106, 145, 85
(Mixed investment focused on defense)
Giga drain
EQ
Body slam
Synthesis
Kingdra, chest berry
Sassy, 166, 110, 131, 110, 152, 90
(Mixed investment focused on defense)
Surf
Ice beam
Body slam
Rest
I used Moltres in Palace before with great success. Hardy natures gives 60% chance to attack and 40% chance to burn or heal (from memory). Flamethrower is mighty helpful against metagross, pinsir, heracross, and generally does big damage without much investment. If the opponent is burned, I can then switch between my team and usually get a good matchup due to the fire,grass,water core.
Sassy kingdra helps with bolt-beam users and sometimes scores paralises with bodyslam which is helpful. Kingdra's typing makes it a perfect switch in for both Meganium and Moltres, with is 4x resist to water and fire. A Sassy nature is incredibly helpful in palace as it has 80% chance to attack (from memory) so my pokemon don't idle too much. When they do, burn support, defensive investment and healing moves come in handy. Kingdra and Meganium are more likely to heal at low hp so they do exactly what I would want them to do.
Meganium is incredible. It has a EQ resist, great mixed bulk, giga drain heals and damages, EQ hits electric types that could ruin this team, while body slam helps with paralises.
Here are so of my highlights demonstrating how much my pokemon believe in me as the Palace Leader would say:
Kingdra 2HKO's Tentacruel w/body slam scoring a paralises first hit and a crit both hits.
Sleep talk Horn drill Seaking v Meganium
Giga drain, horn drill misses
Giga drain (5% hp left- I really need better I'v/spA investment) Horn drill hits.
Moltres v Seaking
Wilowisp misses, rest
Aerial ace, sleep talk, horn drill hits (pressure deplete rest of pp, at least seaking didn't choose it again.
Kingdra v Seaking
Seaking stalls with rest Kingdra eventually gets a crucial crit with body slam.
Meganium has also beaten a scizor one v one using EQ and Synthesis. To be fair the scizor only had aerial ace.
Threats:
I tried a team with moltres before and consistently had trouble with guts users. I can't choose when to use wilowisp so usually I can't risk hoping for aerial ace. Most times I can over come this problem with prior damage from team mates in this team.
Specially defensive walls are hard to beat, especially curse and rest users. Curse rest Muk almost beat me twice but luckily my team out speeds it when it uses curse. Snorlax is also a pain.
If anyone can break this team please comment, I'm hoping I can beat my previous record. I may even breed for a better meganium to get that 2HKO on seaking and potentially more speed. Leech seed would also prove very helpful and I'm raising a timid max speed meganium with leech seed. Moltres is missing a crucial speed tier of 115 which from memory beats metagross, nidoking and many other ohko users
I would like to report my on going streak of 42 in the battle palace lv 50. My previous streak finished at either 56 or 61 (I think I made an edit on my previous post). This team showcases my new essential team building consideration- mixed bulk and mixed offenses. This overcomes mirror coat and counter users while helping break walls that one higher defensive stat. Anyway here is the new team and strategy:
Moltres, Lum berry
Hardy, 177, 105, 100, 153, 110, 110
(10 Vitamins in each stat)
Wil-o-wisp
Morning sun
Flamethrower
Aerial ace
Meganium, leftovers
Sassy, 168, 113, 123, 106, 145, 85
(Mixed investment focused on defense)
Giga drain
EQ
Body slam
Synthesis
Kingdra, chest berry
Sassy, 166, 110, 131, 110, 152, 90
(Mixed investment focused on defense)
Surf
Ice beam
Body slam
Rest
I used Moltres in Palace before with great success. Hardy natures gives 60% chance to attack and 40% chance to burn or heal (from memory). Flamethrower is mighty helpful against metagross, pinsir, heracross, and generally does big damage without much investment. If the opponent is burned, I can then switch between my team and usually get a good matchup due to the fire,grass,water core.
Sassy kingdra helps with bolt-beam users and sometimes scores paralises with bodyslam which is helpful. Kingdra's typing makes it a perfect switch in for both Meganium and Moltres, with is 4x resist to water and fire. A Sassy nature is incredibly helpful in palace as it has% 80% chance to attack (from memory) so my pokemon don't idle too much. When they do, burn support, defensive investment and healing moves come in handy. Kingdra and Meganium are more likely to heal at low hp so they do exactly what I would want them to do.
Meganium is incredible. It has a EQ resist, great mixed bulk, giga drain heals and damages, EQ hits electric types that could ruin this team, while body slam helps with paralises.
Here are so of my highlights demonstrating how much my pokemon believe in me as the Palace Leader would say:
Kingdra 2HKO's Tentacruel w/body slam scoring a paralises first hit and a crit both hits.
Sleep talk Horn drill Seaking v Meganium
Giga drain, horn drill misses
Giga drain (5% hp left- I really need better I'v/spA investment) Horn drill hits.
Moltres v Seaking
Wilowisp misses, rest
Aerial ace, sleep talk, horn drill hits (pressure deplete rest of pp, at least seaking didn't choose it again.
Kingdra v Seaking
Seaking stalls with rest Kingdra eventually gets a crucial crit with body slam.
Meganium has also beaten a scizor one v one using EQ and Synthesis. To be fair the scizor only had aerial ace.
Threats:
I tried a team with moltres before and consistently had trouble with guts users. I can't choose when to use wilowisp so usually I can't risk hoping for aerial ace. Most times I can over come this problem with prior damage from team mates in this team.
Specially defensive walls are hard to beat, especially curse and rest users. Curse rest Muk almost beat me twice but luckily my team out speeds it when it uses curse. Snorlax is also a pain.
If anyone can break this team please comment, I'm hoping I can beat my previous record. I may even breed for a better meganium to get that 2HKO on seaking and potentially more speed. Leech seed would also prove very helpful and I'm raising a timid max speed meganium with leech seed. Moltres is missing a crucial speed tier of 115 which from memory beats metagross, nidoking and many other ohko users
Sassy has a 58% to use a support move when at low health, and you don't have a support move on kingdra or meganium, so 29% of the time you're just doing noting when at low health. Of course if you heal then switch out and switch back in then you can start using the higher percentage to attack intelligently again, but you only have a 20% chance to heal when at low health. Brave, Modest, Impish or Calm would all work better for those sets. Of course there would be some utility in adding a support move (leech seed protect meganium would be interesting especially since burn and leech seed can stack unlike burn and toxic). I think the choice of bulky team members with high all around stats and good defensive typing while including a healing move is really strong.
After a pretty much disappointing Battle Dome run I ended up getting a bit burned out from playing Pokemon as a whole and took a necessary break from it. Now that I am back on playing Pokemon, of course, I had to return to my favorite generation of all time. I chose a facility that I previously didn't played so much before and Arena is indeed one of the most interesting ones. You can't switch but your Pokemon are chosen in a straight order and you get 3 turns to KO an opponent before the judge decided the outcome based on your move choices, accuracy and HP left. I would probably say Arena is one of the hardest since it eliminates one of the hardcore mechanics of the game which is switching out from an unfavorable match-up.
My initial Arena Team was something similar to this. I used Sub DD bulky Mence as a lead to grab an advantage with Metagross lined up next in case Ice types showed at the first slot and Starmie providing the super-effective coverage it is known for. Team was overall solid, but I wanted to try something else.
The biggest advantage Latios has as a lead over Salamence is that it gains immediate fire power without requiring multiple boosts. Most of the time, one Calm Mind is more than enough to sweep through various opponents which feels completely different from what Salamence can offer who needs more than 1 DD to sweep through teams. I passed Salamence to the last slot since I felt that this set will take more advantage as a late-game sweeper.
Well I was pretty excited when I started to use Latios, however, having a couple of losses where I ended up losing to a random burn from Fire Punch in Metagross and Latios getting haxed by crits, really had me thinking on a couple of potential changes. The biggest one was Gengar to which I started using a Sub Destiny Bond set with Lum Berry while having Metagross carrying its Metal Coat. However, after another loss to which I died due to Metagross burning from a Fire Punch from Gengar 4, I felt that the Lum belonged to him instead. Of course, this meant that the only item I could somehow use to not waste an item slot and not have Gengar wear something useless was a Petaya Berry. Salamence remained unchanged and after these changes, I can say the team massively improved and I got to the Gold rematch on my 2nd attempt.
This was one of the biggest changes I had to do with the team but after having a discussion with submenceisop on the Discord, I convinced myself on making the change after talking to him about his previous experiences on the Arena. Gengar is pretty much a dominant threat on this facility for a good reason. Great defensive typing, Levitate and its Speed are its biggest attributes but the most important one is Destiny Bond. I can't stress enough how godly and broken this move is as it guarantees that Gengar will take down anything that is not faster than it and has enough power to take it down (which is not a huge barrier lol). But yeah, it does similarly to what Latios did on the first version of the team, however, Destiny Bond is truly the icing on the cake. Substitute is to Protect Gengar from status and annoying stat drops which comes in handy while also lowering your health in case you want something weak like Umbreon to guarantee it can take down Gengar and Destiny Bond it. Also, Substitute triggers the Petaya Berry on its third use due to the even number in the HP stat and grants a SpA boost that can come in handy and help Gengar. Other than that, Ice Punch and Thunderbolt makes for that necessary BoltBeam coverage combo that is too goo to pass on a lead.
220 Speed allows Gengar to outspeed all Sceptile / Dugtrio sets meaning that only Jolteon and Crobat can outspeed it. Max SpA is there to maximize the damage output and guarantee some KOs like Salamence 4. The rest goes into HP which gives 140 HP on Gengar and guarantees the Petaya to trigger upon its third Substitute use.
XBOX (Metagross) @ Lum Berry
EVs: 44 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def / 4 SpD / 204 Spe
Ability: Clear Body
Level: 50
Shiny: Yes
Adamant Nature
- Brick Break
- Earthquake
- Shadow Ball
- Meteor Mash
Metagross is your go-to physical sweeper to accompany Latios on a sweep. Whenever Latios falls to Ice types or hax, Metagross comes as the best possible back up for it. Meteor Mash will smash Pokemon like Articuno, Jynx and Glalie into pieces. Brick Break is to finish off Lapras and Walrein in case that they survive through Latios while also being the most accurate option vs Umbreon and Blissey without risking a MM miss. Shadow Ball is for Ghost types like Dusclops and Earthquake rounds up the coverage vs slower fire types and Steel types. Because using a Choice Band on a facility that disables switching is never a good thing, the Lum Berry was used instead. While weaker, the Lum guarantees Metagross can win certain match-ups like Greta's Gold Gengar and heal from Hypnosis while curing random status ailments. It helps a lot specially since Metagross is crippled heavily by paralysis and burn.
204 Spe allows Metagross to be faster than all Jynx sets who are 0 Spe neutral. This means that you can smash them into pieces before Metagross is put to sleep (just remember that Jynx 3 has QC, so watch out for it). Max Attack for power, and the rest into HP and defenses to get an odd HP number and overall increase its bulk.
I wasn't initially convinced on Salamence's ability to lead due to how incredibly difficult it is to set up multiple DD on only 3 turns and let alone the lack of raw power due to a weak STAB. However, Salamence's place on the squad is justified as a back up sweeper who can deal next turn with the Fire types that can beat Metagross while Intimidate + immunity to Ground helps it. Substitute makes Salamence immune to status and it's a guaranteed way to win vs Greta's Umbreon lead since status spammers will overall keep using the move and you get a free DD + Sub before damaging them which is very valuable on this facility to build up on boosts. AERO-ASS is your most reliable STAB and a sure fire way to win vs evasion spammers who get lucky enough to build on evasion boosts while guaranteeing Skill points on the judgement area. It's weak but it never misses and this is valuable on Battle Arena. Earthquake is just there to complement the coverage and exterminate Fire types like Arcanine and Houndoom.
172 HP EVs gives 192 HP which is a perfect Leftovers number and translates into recovering the lost HP from a Substitute in 4 turns. 198 Atk gives the same number in the stat and since it's a jump point in Attack it massively influences on getting the highest chance possible to 2HKO Skarmory at +6 with Aerial Ace. 140 Spe is used to outspeed all Heracross sets and kill them with AERO-ASS.
As an additional note, Salamence is chosen as a lead on the 4th round before you reach the 28th battle as you'll want the best lead matchup vs her Heracross which is singehandedly destroyed by Sub Mence. Metagross always remains on the 2nd slot.
Just wanted to provide a new update, thanks to submenceisop after having a good discussion on the Discord, I made an important change on replacing Latios with Gengar which overall boosted the team. As such, I updated the main post with this change. I also ended up getting into 56 wins finally at Lv.50 Singles. As usual, I am attaching below the proof on my original GBA.
I had the inspiration to try a team centered around Gengar, Suicune and Umbreon and I've reached 140 wins. This team has a fast Gengar lead with bolt/punch coverage, which hits a large range of threats, namely DD users and grass types. Gengar makes a great lead for it's great speed and immunities and is only hit by Sheer cold among the ohko moves. The last two support moves in destiny bond and perish song helps force out double team spammers, fat walls that Suicune has a hard time breaking and in the worst case scenario- allows me to trade 1 for 1.
Suicune is the phys def wall and set up sweeper on the team.
The third slot is Umbreon, which is the special wall of the team and is necessary for improving the matchup against CM psychic types. Torment and protect allows you to safely stall out dangerous moves and makes it even easier for Suicune to set up. Wish and toxic work exceptionally well with the former two moves. I have lum berry on Umbreon, as it has no reliable way to cure status without rest. The previous ev spread I've used for Umbreon was not bulky enough on the special side, even with it's solid natural bulk. I kept the hp investment at 180 hp evs (hits 193 hp, 16+1 leftovers number), but I decided to go with maximum special defense with a Calm nature to make sure it can handle the threats I need it to. It has 44 speed evs to outspeed Ludicolo and the rest in defense. It's not quite Blissey level in terms of tankiness, but it gets the job done. It even provides massive wishes to Suicune, which really helps a lot when trying to stall.
I've actually had a really easy time racking up wins with this team. The threats are similar to my previous team, but I have a lot less frustration trying to break through double team spammers and fat stuff. Unfortunately, this team actually has some difficulty with Anabel. Best way is to perish song turn 1 to force out Raikou. Toxic stall Latios, pp stall out all of the t-bolts from Raikou and set up with Suicune for the win.
Threatlist
Snorlax
Haxdon, Haxrein, Lapras
Heracross( focus band/bright powder)- potential d-bond target
Metagross ( can beat me with some hax, namely MM attack raises)
Mixed electrics with fighting coverage can be a problem( although Umbreon can handle most with torment and toxic)
Explosion users
Kommo-o.
I think Gengar is the GOAT in the Arena. The immunities and D-bond along with it's coverage make it an amazing lead.
I fucking lost to DD Mence. Super salty right now. Streak ended at 369. Missed twice and then got flinched with Rock slide.
Edit: Just realized the link does not work. I also made a misplay thinking about it. Suicune should never be out, unless it's to check a threat or it's easy set up. Gengar should have been swapped in to either ice punch/perish song to ko the Salamence.
Hi, i want to get all gold symbols on emerald. I wanted to start with battle tower but i want a creative team and not an hyper offense. I only want to get gold and not need a long run almost for now. I was thinking about a trick - choice band team. Any advice?
Hi, i want to get all gold symbols on emerald. I wanted to start with battle tower but i want a creative team and not an hyper offense. I only want to get gold and not need a long run almost for now. I was thinking about a trick - choice band team. Any advice?
You don't really have a lot of options for a Trick lead. On this generation, it has a very poor distribution. Basically your only options are Alakazam, Grumpig, Spinda, Kecleon and Linoone. Your two best options out of these are Alakazam who has the Speed required to efficiently lead but its bulk is non-existent and Linoone who has a bit better bulk but not significantly fast. If you need references, check Actaeon's teams since some of them revolve around Trick and he's the best guy to help you on this playstyle.
Haven't been active for a while, but I figured it's time to finally share my BT Sunny Day doubles team. I did a bunch of tweaking and testing, and indeed Sun is harder to use than Rain in general, but it's tons of fun because it really pushes you to efficiently maximize offense and make the best use of free turns.
In what ways can Sun contribute? On the offensive side, there's the 50% boost to Fire-type moves, and powerful free-of-charge Solarbeams that can be executed by Chlorophyll users that suddenly outspeed the whole tower (if you want to invest that much in Speed). While Fire-types are everywhere and they generally have a decent SpA stat, Chlorophyll users aren't that common and of the available types, Exeggutor is definitely the most threatening Special Sweeper with 125 base SpA, also having Explosion, Sleep Powder, a strong Psychic and possibly a Hidden Power at its disposal. Both Shiftry and Exeggutor provide a powerful Explosion; more powerful than the other 'speedy' exploders without Sun, i.e. Electrode and Gengar. So on the offensive side, we have a lot to work with.
The defensive advantages are noteworthy as well: Rock-types are a lot harder to take down in Sun, also because Surf is a spread move in Doubles. Think of Regirock and Aerodactyl, mainly. They can also help beating opposing Flash-fire Pokémon and put a dent in the otherwise problematic Special walls without having to resort to suicide strategies. Likewise, Fire-types can put up a great fight against Water-types in Sun, especially the more bulky Fire-types such as Arcanine, Entei and Moltres (although the latter has the 75%-healing Morning Sun, it also has nasty Electric and Rock weaknesses, despite also having the most powerful unboosted Overheat in the game).
The problem with Sun teams? While Eggy's Solarbeam, Moltres' Overheat and Shiftry Explosions hit like a truck, they JUST don't OHKO a lot of Pokémon and the absence of good spread moves like Earthquake hurts. As powerful as these Pokémon might be, they can still quickly lose to a supereffective move from something that just survived by a thread, like Milotic, Regirock, Snorlax and Regice. Tyranitar is also a big problem; remember I play doubles at Lv. 100 to maximize the fun, challenge and range of opponents. So I needed something to generate even more momentum, hit both opponents and preferably kill at least one of them for the best 'defense', and a decent defensive backbone.
In this fashion, noteworthy combinations to try for the lead are Aerodactyl + Moltres, Gengar + Shiftry (lead), Exeggutor + Shiftry and Entei + Shiftry. I've had decent success with those, although Shiftry's Fake Out only disables one opponent, and all of these Pokémon can still be OHKOed by certain matchups. The Aero + Moltres lead prevents that, but you'll quickly find yourself to be stuck against TTar leads, Curselax and hell, even Suicune. Jumpluff comes to mind, but firstly it doesn't even need Chlorophyll, and even though Helping Hand is nice, it's extremely frail, doesn't KO stuff with Solarbeam and Sleep Powder will miss at the worst moments as we know. We need more basestats to stomp through the opponent. In Sun, the battle should be over in 5 turns or we basically lose. That's what the following team does accomplish most of the time.
Sunny Day Offense
Dusclops @ Lum Berry Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 HP / 100 Def / 112 SpD / 44 Spe
Calm Nature (+SpD, -Atk)
- Sunny Day
- Helping Hand
- Foresight
- Fire Punch
General Team Discussion
In MOST cases, Dusclops, who never really dies on turn 1 because the opponent usually prefers attacking Shiftry (frail, many weaknesses), uses Sunny Day while Shiftry protects (instead of Fake Out, the usual move on sun teams). On turn 2, Shiftry explodes if both opponents can't survive, while Dusclops uses Fire Punch on its teammate, activating Arcanine's Flash Fire in the same turn.
Then because of Sun, Flash Fire and Helping Hand, Arcanine's Fire-type moves have their power effectively multiplied by 1.5^3 = 3.375. This results into Heat Wave, despite having its power halved, hitting BOTH opponents with 168.5 power, so that's more than an EMBER stronger than a single-targeting Fire Blast. To put it into perspective, it does around 85% to the average Clefable. So it OHKOs all Pokémon that are weak to it (save some Regice) and stuff with Special 'bulk' around the likes of Gengar, Alakazam and even Espeon most of the time. Literally ALL other Pokémon faint to an Overheat after being hit by Heat Wave. Overheat effectively has 472 base power, so that's almost four Fire Blasts at the same time. Really, can OHKO stuff like Milotic, Lati@s, Gyarados and Blissey after a Heat Wave. Using Modest would almost guarantee it, but Timid is too important for the 100 BS speed tier. Charcoal would help too, but White Herb is important most of the time. I tried. I chose Arcanine over the 'stronger' Houndoom, because of Heat Wave and the bulk to actually survive simple attacks, like weak EQ's, stronger Normal STABs and powerful Electric-type moves.
Exeggutor rounds out the team with another Explosion for special sponges like Thick Fat Lax and a Solarbeam that obliterates Rock and Water-types surviving Arcanine's assaults (OHKOing stuff thanks to Miracle Seed). It usually gets sent out if Dusclops has to use Helping Hand alongside Shiftry's Explosion. Psychic OHKOs Fighting-types and most Poison types, and HP Fire OHKOs Metagross and Skarmory in Sun with Helping Hand, which is noteworthy. Its Explosion is not as strong as Shiftry's, but with Helping Hand it's stronger than Shiftry's is without. It's about as strong as Hasty Gengar's is, comparing it to the Explosion team from before. And it doesn't even need EV's for that; Exeggutor, like Arcanine, has the surprising bulk to survive some weaker attacks it's weak to, such as QC Lapras' Ice Beam.
The EV spreads
To be honest, I didn't quite optimize them yet. But Dusclops is made a little bulkier on the special side, because Crunch is usually coming from a better offensive stat than Shadow Ball (compare TTar / Sharpedo / Houndoom to Gengar, Misdreavus and Dusclops for example). Also specially strong opponents are more threatening to the rest of the team; tough physical attackers are more easily KO'ed by Dusclops' partners. Dusclops' Fire Punch can actually finish off opponents sometimes, e.g. a lucky Metagross that survives Shiftry's Explosion, or burn-fish through something problematic (a Blissey that somehow avoided Explosions). The 44 Spe EV's are to outspeed Snorlax.
Shiftry goes for max Attack, outspeeding other Shiftry and maximizing its bulk with the rest of the EVs, so that Def + SpD = HP. This makes it survive weaker Ice Beams, Drill Pecks, Aerial Aces, which is really important because sometimes Shiftry needs to use Fake Out while Dusclops uses Foresight on a Ghost or a Double Team abuser before the Sunny Day + Protect turn. These EVs make it somewhat hard to KO by Quick Clawers.
Arcanine is simple: 300 Speed, max SpA and rest into HP for maximized mixed bulk.
Exeggutor is also simple: max SpA, enough Speed to hit 180 (outspeeding Crobat in sun is important), rest into special bulk with enough HP to also live CB Normal Attacks and some Shadow Balls, despite the Mild Nature.
Filler moves and other options
Dusclops' Foresight used to be filler, but became a staple instead of Seismic Toss. It's not only to enable Shiftry hitting Ghost-types, but also for Double Team spammers. Missing can get really out of hand, especially if it's something like Blissey that avoids Explosions. But also against stuff like Shuckle it's a godsend.
For Shiftry's last move I mainly used Shadow Ball, but ever since Dusclops got Foresight I don't use it anymore. Brick Break is mainly useful to destroy screens. Rock-types are generally beaten by Helping Hand + Silk Scarf Explosion anyway, and Brick Break can't KO them. Lastly, Solarbeam, even with the hindering Nature, prevents Damp Pokémon from ruining the fun. So that's what I went with eventually.
Arcanine used to run Odor Sleuth over SD/HPIce before Dusclops had Foresight. Flamethrower is also an option. I prefer Sunny Day in case the battle becomes slow and I need Exeggutor to give a final blow. Of course, HP Ice is useful for Dragon types that otherwise might be problematic, although Arcanine needs Helping Hand to actually KO them most of the time.
With Exeggutor, either Psychic or HP Fire could be replaced, but without Psychic Gengar and Blaziken become problematic, and without HP Fire Steels are a pain. I used Light Screen, which was disappointing, and HP Ice over HP Fire; Exeggutor DOES have the SpA to OHKO stuff with it. I guess Sleep Powder deserves a mention, but I really dislike using it without Sweet Scent or Compoundeyes, and it wastes a Sun turn as well. Same goes for Leech Seed; it just doesn't fit the style of this particular team. Recently, I've used Skill Swap to prevent getting stuck against Flash Fire opponents, which is really funny because they will charge me in the same turn usually, and Arcanine will blast through them despite their Fire typing.
How good is this team?
It's still not good, compared to the other Doubles teams I've posted. On average, I think it wins about 20 or 30 battles before failing against something stupid like Quick Claw, a really bad lead matchup or my Pokémon failing to get a specific roll. It requires careful, calculated play, despite being so offensive, but it's very fun to feature these rare Pokémon in a doubles environment. Arcanine or Exeggutor getting statused is a pain, so I guess Cheri Berry is another good option for Exeggutor. Hit fast and hard, and target the most threatening opponents at all costs.
I think I did a good job maximizing Sun's effects, but I hope someone can point out an even more effective way to abuse Sunny Day!
A sample streak is upcoming, I'll edit this post ASAP.
EDIT: Sample Streak
Continuing about Battle Tower Doubles, I'd like to share a thought process about the next team I'm working on. It's not finished. From my experience, I really think there's only one archetype left that would be a serious candidate for a Double Battle team, and that's a very defensive type of team: Perish Trap.
In Doubles, unlike in Singles, Perish Song has the potential to kill two Pokémon in the same turn, making it interesting to think about. On the other hand, the Doubles environment is way more offensive, because of the possibility of two Pokémon focusing together on one target. Walling is a lot more difficult because there are simply no Pokémon that withstand all combinations of two opponents. The use of Protect is harder to master. But not all is lost; screens help both active Pokémon, even though they only reduce damage by one third, and the AI is predictable so switching around is often advantageous for the human player.
So what kind of setups did I try? First, I didn't want to use Wobbuffet at all because it's really slow, doesn't get Protect and has little to prevent it being a sitting duck. Dugtrio has Arena Trap, but it's really hard to keep alive (although Protect, Dig and Substitute are somewhat effective) and there are many Pokémon it doesn't trap. Using Mean Look or Spider Web narrows down the possibilities of Pokémon to use, and wastes otherwise useful turns. Therefore I resorted to a strategy where I didn't have to trap the opponent: an effective Explosion setup where Perish Song is used on the last two. Something like Lapras, Gengar, Suicune/Miltank and Mr. Mime proved quite effective, because Lapras (Waterfall) and Gengar decently take care of the non-Explodable opponents together, and Shell Armor + Explosion gets Lapras into Salac range so it can do something useful after it uses Perish Song, like Rest or Confuse Ray. Then Mr. Mime's Soundproof, Miltank's Heal Bell, or Suicune's plain bulk / setup opportunities come into play. But this style was strictly inferior to the full Explosion setup, so I figured I wanted to make a really defensive team instead, hoping to create a really distinguishable archetype instead.
Still favoring the most bulky Perish Song user, Shell Armor Lapras, I figured it would be nice to quickly setup screens alongside it, guaranteeing the Perish Song on Turn 1 and maximizing longevity of whatever Pokémon I would use as the last two. Wobbuffet becomes mandatory. It switches in on the third turn after my leads both use Protect, in the spot where it's least likely to faint to incoming hits. This is quite easy to predict if I can get decent defensive type synergy between my leads and Wobbuffet. It turns out that Lapras --> Wobbuffet is not a bad switch, since Wobbuffet resists Fighting and doesn't take too much from Thunderbolt, especially when Light Screen is active. First I used Latias as the second lead; it quickly sets up whatever Screen is expected to be most useful, is quite bulky even with the necessary Speed investment and gets Safeguard as a potentially useful filler move. For the last slot I tried the obvious Gengar, but also more bulky mons like Politoed, Dewgong and a very defensive (non-Thick Club) Marowak. I want them to have Perish Song, because after making the dual switch to Pokémon 3 and 4 and using Protect, the opponents faint and I want to use another Perish Song without having to switch first. It turned out Politoed did best because of its natural bulk, decent Speed tier and Damp ability, although Lightningrod Marowak definitely had its merits as well. Nice team, but Pokémon accidentally fainting and Soundproof opponents ruined my fun a lot of times. The Soundproof problem can be taken care of by using Skill Swap Starmie or Espeon instead of Latias as a Screen setupper. Espeon is actually better than Starmie because it also gets the very useful Charm, which allows it to survive Heracross Megahorns with the right investment (Timid, 299 HP, 201 Def, 341 Speed). Here's the current team along with a sample streak in which I lose (will be added soon). I didn't bother to write the exact movesets I used, because I'm still testing.
Lapras @ Leftovers: Perish Song, Protect, Toxic, Waterfall (WF for Rhydon, mainly)
Espeon @ Brightpowder: Charm, Light Screen, Skill Swap, Protect
Wobbuffet @ Quick Claw: Encore, Destiny Bond, Charm, Safeguard
Politoed @ Lum Berry: Perish Song, Protect, Substitute, Icy Wind/Sweet Kiss (Sub is nice if you can afford it when the first two Pokémon faint)
Lastly, in order to take better control of the opponent's move flow, I tried using a Clefable + Gengar lead, which can potentially make use of Follow Me. The move is also useful alongside Wobbuffet, and there's even the possibility of running an Assist-selecting Perish Song Persian in the back, for a Speedy Perish Song. The team could be made to only use moves like Follow Me, Destiny Bond, Counter and Mirror Coat anyway. But these are still just ideas, and I think I'm missing something "perfect" here; there's just so many ways of abusing Perish Song.
I hope you like to think along, and that we can finish the double battles rant with a good seventh team together! This is a beautiful, but very difficult archetype to engineer.
Continuing about Battle Tower Doubles, I'd like to share a thought process about the next team I'm working on. It's not finished. From my experience, I really think there's only one archetype left that would be a serious candidate for a Double Battle team, and that's a very defensive type of team: Perish Trap.
In Doubles, unlike in Singles, Perish Song has the potential to kill two Pokémon in the same turn, making it interesting to think about. On the other hand, the Doubles environment is way more offensive, because of the possibility of two Pokémon focusing together on one target. Walling is a lot more difficult because there are simply no Pokémon that withstand all combinations of two opponents. The use of Protect is harder to master. But not all is lost; screens help both active Pokémon, even though they only reduce damage by one third, and the AI is predictable so switching around is often advantageous for the human player.
So what kind of setups did I try? First, I didn't want to use Wobbuffet at all because it's really slow, doesn't get Protect and has little to prevent it being a sitting duck. Dugtrio has Arena Trap, but it's really hard to keep alive (although Protect, Dig and Substitute are somewhat effective) and there are many Pokémon it doesn't trap. Using Mean Look or Spider Web narrows down the possibilities of Pokémon to use, and wastes otherwise useful turns. Therefore I resorted to a strategy where I didn't have to trap the opponent: an effective Explosion setup where Perish Song is used on the last two. Something like Lapras, Gengar, Suicune/Miltank and Mr. Mime proved quite effective, because Lapras (Waterfall) and Gengar decently take care of the non-Explodable opponents together, and Shell Armor + Explosion gets Lapras into Salac range so it can do something useful after it uses Perish Song, like Rest or Confuse Ray. Then Mr. Mime's Soundproof, Miltank's Heal Bell, or Suicune's plain bulk / setup opportunities come into play. But this style was strictly inferior to the full Explosion setup, so I figured I wanted to make a really defensive team instead, hoping to create a really distinguishable archetype instead.
Still favoring the most bulky Perish Song user, Shell Armor Lapras, I figured it would be nice to quickly setup screens alongside it, guaranteeing the Perish Song on Turn 1 and maximizing longevity of whatever Pokémon I would use as the last two. Wobbuffet becomes mandatory. It switches in on the third turn after my leads both use Protect, in the spot where it's least likely to faint to incoming hits. This is quite easy to predict if I can get decent defensive type synergy between my leads and Wobbuffet. It turns out that Lapras --> Wobbuffet is not a bad switch, since Wobbuffet resists Fighting and doesn't take too much from Thunderbolt, especially when Light Screen is active. First I used Latias as the second lead; it quickly sets up whatever Screen is expected to be most useful, is quite bulky even with the necessary Speed investment and gets Safeguard as a potentially useful filler move. For the last slot I tried the obvious Gengar, but also more bulky mons like Politoed, Dewgong and a very defensive (non-Thick Club) Marowak. I want them to have Perish Song, because after making the dual switch to Pokémon 3 and 4 and using Protect, the opponents faint and I want to use another Perish Song without having to switch first. It turned out Politoed did best because of its natural bulk, decent Speed tier and Damp ability, although Lightningrod Marowak definitely had its merits as well. Nice team, but Pokémon accidentally fainting and Soundproof opponents ruined my fun a lot of times. The Soundproof problem can be taken care of by using Skill Swap Starmie or Espeon instead of Latias as a Screen setupper. Espeon is actually better than Starmie because it also gets the very useful Charm, which allows it to survive Heracross Megahorns with the right investment (Timid, 299 HP, 201 Def, 341 Speed). Here's the current team along with a sample streak in which I lose (will be added soon). I didn't bother to write the exact movesets I used, because I'm still testing.
View attachment 276136 Lapras @ Leftovers: Perish Song, Protect, Toxic, Waterfall (WF for Rhydon, mainly)
Espeon @ Brightpowder: Charm, Light Screen, Skill Swap, Protect
Wobbuffet @ Quick Claw: Encore, Destiny Bond, Charm, Safeguard
Politoed @ Lum Berry: Perish Song, Protect, Substitute, Icy Wind/Sweet Kiss (Sub is nice if you can afford it when the first two Pokémon faint)
Lastly, in order to take better control of the opponent's move flow, I tried using a Clefable + Gengar lead, which can potentially make use of Follow Me. The move is also useful alongside Wobbuffet, and there's even the possibility of running an Assist-selecting Perish Song Persian in the back, for a Speedy Perish Song. The team could be made to only use moves like Follow Me, Destiny Bond, Counter and Mirror Coat anyway. But these are still just ideas, and I think I'm missing something "perfect" here; there's just so many ways of abusing Perish Song.
I hope you like to think along, and that we can finish the double battles rant with a good seventh team together! This is a beautiful, but very difficult archetype to engineer.
Did you ever consider an explosion or like an aggressive choiceband lead next to something bulky and strong like metagross (with protect) so you get your opponent down to two pokemon quick and you just happen to have perish song and defensive pokemon in the back? Once they're down to two they can't switch.
Did you ever consider an explosion or like an aggressive choiceband lead next to something bulky and strong like metagross (with protect) so you get your opponent down to two pokemon quick and you just happen to have perish song and defensive pokemon in the back? Once they're down to two they can't switch.
You're completely right; bulky exploders and/or Choice Banders can give a quick advantage so they're down to the last two, freeing up the Wobbuffet slot. From my experience though, you're usually better off keeping up the offense instead of giving away momentum by using Perish Song. So that kind of team boils down to Haymaker / Explosion offense IMO.
By the way, I've uploaded two new Monotype videos showcasing the revised Mono Bug and Mono Flying teams.
While testing more Perish Song stuff, e.g. Skill Swap / Protect / Dive / Substitute Starmie alongside Follow Me Mr. Mime, or Perish Song Gengar + Follow Me Clefable lead, I decided to take a break from Perish Song since it drives me nuts a little bit; sometimes these trials seem to achieve pretty long streaks, for example the Politoed version has done 5 streaks pretty well, and then loses pretty randomly, but very decisively.
What Doubles strategies are left? Well Lightningrod is classic for sure, but I never took it seriously because the good Lightningrod Pokémon (i.e. not Manectric) are very slow and have common weaknesses. On the other hand they do possess the strongest Earthquakes in the game. A Lightningrod team needs to fully make use of the immunity the team gets to Electric-type moves and should be able to do something about Marowak and Rhydon's pathetic Speed stats. Otherwise it just becomes a suboptimal version of Haymaker or some other strategy.
The classical combination of Marowak + Gyarados seems inevitable, but the original problem is: how does Gyarados do anything useful besides Intimidate / stay around a little longer than usual? Since Marowak doesn't do anything to protect Gyarados aside from Lightningrod, it doesn't have the time to setup enough Dragon Dances (even it if would get the opportunity, it still can't use EQ effectively), and DD Gyarados is done better on my previous Clefable/Gyarados/Claydol/Salamence team anyway. Choice Band comes to mind, but meh, doesn't make it a team player and certainly doesn't help Marowak or Rhydon. It's important to keep in mind that weakness to Electric-moves doesn't give automatic entry to a Lightningrod team.
But Gyarados can indeed contribute something very dangerous it otherwise couldn't: the bulk to stay alive for at least one turn, Icy Wind, EQ immunity, Leer and filler moves that help Marowak KO stuff to keep the momentum going. Thunder Wave is also noteworthy, although I didn't make use of it on the eventual team. Marowak is slow, but still fast enough to outspeed the 100 BS tier after Icy Wind, and bulky enough to survive non-STAB Ice Punches or even Ice Beams. The Pokémon that are offensively capable of OHKOing Marowak will be OHKOed before they get a chance, provided Icy Wind doesn't miss. After Intimidate, Marowak takes physical hits really well, e.g. opposing Rhydon Earthquakes don't even 2HKO; they do 49.8% damage at most. That calculation also applies to stuff like Machamp's Cross Chop, for example. These are properties that Togetic, my 'usually favorite Marowak partner because Lightningrod protects Marowak's own protector', cannot accomplish. It can't protect Marowak from being Surfed or '2HKO Earthquaked' and doesn't do anything about the Speed issue. Togetic is still a strong candidate for a backup Pokémon, however. With Rhydon in the back, what is the best fourth Pokémon? I decided to try Mantine because of its weakness rather than its strengths and see how it plays out; it's a special version of Skarmory, gets a useful Ability in Water Absorb, is immune to Earthquake and has an acceptable SpA to use Icy Wind, Surf and maybe a Hidden Power, even without investment. It's Rock weakness is usually not a problem, because Rock Slide is halved in power anyway, and Rhydon + Surf outspeed and beat the scary Rock types anyway.
Marowak (F) @ Thick Club
Ability: Lightningrod
EVs: 4 Def / 252 Atk / 24 SpD / 228 Spe
Jolly Nature (+Spe, -SpA)
IVs: 30 SpD / 30 Spe
- Protect
- Earthquake
- Ancientpower
- Hidden Power [Bug]
General strategy
Most of the time at least one opponent outspeeds Marowak. In that scenario, Gyarados usually selects Icy Wind and Marowak Protects. Since Marowak is easy to kill for most opponent, they usually target Marowak instead of Gyarados. Also, the AI is not aware of Lightningrod the first time they attempt to use an Electric-type Attack. This seems to reset for the next opponent, in case I kill the first two, so 'new Pokémon' will use Electric-types attacks again! After Icy Wind, Marowak outspeeds the 100 BS Tier and tries to do as much damage as possible, sometimes giving priority to stuff like Lati@s with HP [Bug]. Gyarados' Leer turns many 2HKOs into OHKOs, not only for EQ but also Ancientpower and is very useful, even when Marowak dies and Rhydon has to finish the job. It's also the reason Gyarados outspeeds Marowak. Without Leer, I'd let Marowak outspeed Gyarados so Icy Wind could land on the second Pokémon coming in. Thunderbolt is sometimes better to finish off opposing Water-types or Flying-types, such as Skarmory who refused to die to anything Marowak throws at it. With Modest and max SpA, all of Icy Wind, Surf and Thunderbolt do respectable damage. Icy Wind even knocks some Grass-type Pokémon into guaranteed KO range from -1 Def Earthquake, such as Breloom and Sceptile (the latter is dangerous because it still outspeeds my Pokémon after Icy Wind and the Modest sets OHKO Marowak 87.5% of the time, although they sometimes prefer to attempt a Thunderpunch on Gyarados instead).
Rhydon does more or less the same as Marowak, but it's slower (can't reach the 200 speed tier) so it settles to outspeed the 270 tier after Icy Wind. It's an enormous threat after it gets Swaggered; at +2 it OHKOs a lot of stuff, although it barely misses out on some bulky water OHKOs such as Milotic. Bulky waters without too much SpA investment don't OHKO in return with Surf, and might not even use it because they seem to recognize Mantine's Water Absorb. Hidden Power Ghost is chosen here because Gengar could be a serious threat to Mantine after it KOs Rhydon (although Rhydon lives an Ice Punch!)
Hidden Power [Grass] is chosen over Hidden Power [Electric] because Gyarados is not a problem at all (Surf doesn't KO Rhydon and if it's a DD set it doesn't KO Rhydon either), and I like to hit all the grounded Waters super-effectively. It chunks Swampert and Quagsire to the point where they don't even live an unboosted Earthquake. Since Quagsire might also have Water Absorb, it feels safer to use HP [Grass]. With Swagger and HP [Grass], Mantine is good at 1v1-ing opposing Waters in a pinch, such as Milotic, Vaporeon or Suicune (unless it's the Toxic/DT set, which doesn't threaten my Ground-types directly) if they survive Rhydon's butchering.
EV spreads and item details
Gyarados is EV'ed to outspeed Marowak by one point, deal decent damage with its special attacks and is made as bulky as possible by almost maximizing HP. I should experiment with giving it more bulk and less SpA, but sometimes I prefer Gyarados getting killed so Mantine can Swagger Rhydon. Mantine is a better partner to Rhydon than Gyarados is, because of Water Absorb and Leer not letting Rhydon score KOs like Marowak does. Rhydon really prefers getting Swaggered. Gyarados has a Chesto Berry because Lightningrod reduces the need of Cheri Berry, and Lum Berry is reserved for Mantine, who sometimes has to 1v1 last standing Pokémon.
Marowak is EV'ed to reach 200 Speed, maximizes its Attack and the spare EVs are put into SpD to increase the chances of living (unboosted) Ice, Water or Grass-type moves. Marowak has the nice tendency to live those moves in red bar. If I get an Ancientpower boost, Marowak survives nearly all special attacks and it's pretty much over instantly.
Rhydon has the bulk to take a Meteor Mash from Metagross as well as an Ice Punch from Gengar. This also lets it survive weak Surfs. The Pokémon whose Surf is too powerful pose a threat, e.g. Milotic and Starmie, since I can't OHKO Milotic and I can't outspeed Starmie. Sometimes I try to make a double switch here to get another Icy Wind in, or simply go for the sweep with Mantine as they attack Rhydon.
Mantine has a combination of bulk and SpA that 'just works' for me; it survives power Normal STAB moves, avoids being 2HKOed by Rock Slide, eats three Psychics (78% of the time) from the likes of Espeon and easily turns 2HKOs from EQ into OHKOs with either Surf or Icy Wind.
Sample Streak
As usual, it can be found at my YouTube channel. I made a misclick switching Gyarados to Rhydon instead of Mantine, but got away with it. I did two streaks because they happen pretty fast.
Problems and other options to prevent these
Sceptile and Starmie can be a problem because of their speed, but most of the time switching Marowak to Mantine in between helps to get off a second Icy Wind, and then Mantine and Gyarados can either both attack, or one of them can switch out (e.g. they'll use Thunderpunch/bolt so a Lightningrod Pokémon can come in again and wreck them with -2 Spe.
Intimidate is sometimes a nuisance because it prevents them from getting killed by Marowak early on. Especially Dragon Dance Salamence could be a threat, but the most it usually does it KO Marowak. If it uses an attack, it's either going to get by Icy Wind without keeping its Speed, or it's getting attacked by Marowak. Still, Intimidate is nasty because it turns the 2HKO into a 3HKO most of the time.
I too have been playing tower doubles. I just lost at streak 68 using the team below.
Grumpig, choice band
Bold, 163/58/107/114/141/115
(Even Ev investment, 26-31 IVs)
Trick
Psych up
Protect
Psychic
Gyarados, Lum berry
Adament, 192/180/99/68/118/118
(Kommo-o's Gyardos set but with slightly lower IVs and weaker hp fly)
Dragon Dance
HP Fly
EQ
Protect
Steelix, persim berry
Adament, 182/130/220/56/97/45
EQ
Rock slide
Explosion
Protect
Snorlax, left overs
Sassy, 248/143/101/83/160/43
Curse
Rest
Body slam
Shadow ball
This team has many options. One ideal outcome is one of the opponents pokemon use double team, or calm mind etc, allowing grumpig to use trick and choice lock. This is especially effective against special sweepers as they gain no attack boost when using special moves. Once an opponents mon is locked into using a boosting move, most often double team, grumpig can proceed to use psych up. Grumpigs great overall stats, thick fat ability, and ally support allow it to take advantage of double team and punish the opponent quickly. Increased evasion also allows grumpig to dodge ally's EQ's. With one of the opponents pokemon choice locked, the team can then proceed to pivot, set up and sweep.
There are other strategies this team can use to handle offensive pokemon better, especially weather sweepers. Having protect on both grumpig and gyarados allows me to scout for potential OHKO's they may receive. If Gyarados is going to get hit by a Tbolt, switch to steelix. Same case for Grumpig's weaknesses, plus snorlax is a perfect shadowball switch. Protect also allows steelix to explode, which was what saved the day against a team of latios and calm mind raikou.
Intimidate switching is key and aids snorlax sweeping. Usually gyarados and grumpig can target a frail pokemon with their combined stabs and get the KO.
This team is the third trick double battle trick team. Belly drum charazard, snatch sub kecleon, swampert, venusaur set my first double battle streak above 50; trick grumpig, dd mence, yawn + curse snorlax and yawn + curse quagsire, set my next at 65, and the above team set my pb to 68.
The key to this team is keeping one of the opponents pokemon alive which isn't a threat (hopefully choice locked), and set up and target the other three. The added defense of this team helps with set up opportunities. Since which pokemon I use to sweep and which of the opponents pokemon I deem not a threat vary each battle, it is very important anticipating moves. Protect is helpful when pivoting, setting up, or scouting Tbolts but can backfire quick against sword dance users. If I take out one of the opponents pokemon hoping that the next will be less of a threat, I run the risk that next is more of a threat. Certain type combos are particularly hard: fire and fight take out steelix and snorlax quick, while electric and fire make steelix a scetchy switch and snorlax runs the risk of getting critted by those dreaded fire blasts.
I lost to a belly drum snorlax, which set up and survived a psychic and EQ from steelix. The leads were tbolt, surf, ice beam lapras and machamp. Grumpig 2hko machamp since it was a threat to half the team with possible cross chop crits. Steelix replaces gyardos safely but struggles against lapras. Snorlax can beat lapras but not when faced against another belly drum snorlax that's faster. Lapras is hard to play against. I may have been able to win with the right guessing and not have gyarados killed on the switch with lapras tbolt. Why it was targeting snorlax instead of ice beam or surf, I will never know.
I'll post a better photo with someone else's phone when I can. My camera lense is cracked and every photo comes out pink or purple.
I've decided to pick up another facility for fun, and I have some theoretical ideas about the Battle Arena (Singles). As of now, the highest streaks on the leaderboard involve bulky offense with nearly impeccable type synergy and setup opportunities; if one Pokémon is down, the next one should be able to take advantage by not only beating the opponent, but taking the opportunity to setup one or two boosting moves as well. A great example is #1 Regice, Gyarados and Latios team. I tried the team and it works really well, although I lost a couple of times, way before trainer 143. Undoubtedly, I didn't play perfectly because of rushing through on a simulator and wtset, having made the team, surely optimizes the strategy better in some pinch scenarios.
Another take to get an early advantage, at least, is using Destiny Bond and/or Explosion. You kill one opponent and drag the next one along. This worked really well for me, I used Gengar + Metagross and Gengar + Snorlax, both having their pros and cons. From my experience, CM/Surf/IB/Mirror Coat Suicune pairs better with Metagross as the last Pokémon, and CM/Psychic/Tbolt/IB Latios pairs better with Snorlax.
With both kind of teams, I consistently get more than 40 wins, sometimes adjusting a move here and there to beat Greta's Shedinja, for example Shadow Ball > Substitute/Perish Song on Gengar, or Rock Slide over Agility on Metagross.
But for the next team, 'my penny in the bag' for the Arena, I wanted to invent something cheesier, an entirely new strategy involving Belly Drum! The effects from screens and such carry onto the next Pokémon, so I decided to use a very bulky Gardevoir lead with Thunder Wave, Reflect, Memento and Psychic, effectively passing paralysis and -2 offensive stats, possibly with a Reflect up, to EQ/Return/Sub/Belly Drum Snorlax. Snorlax is almost impenetrable for Mementoed, paralyzed foes, provided they don't critically hit. This is a really strange Snorlax (FastLax), because it's Jolly with 252 Spe EV's, trying to Sub + Belly Drum into Salac range and outspeeding the 122 Speed tier after. The Sub doesn't even break against Metagross' (unboosted) Meteor Mash after Reflect, because Snorlax doesn't require Atk investment. So besides the Spe EV's it can fully invest in (mostly physical) bulk. For the last Pokémon, I needed something that takes care of Gengar, Misdreavus and fast, hard-hitting Pokémon. An all-out, perfect coverage, physically quite bulky Alakazam fulfills this job surprisingly well, because it barely survives anything that those fast, frail Pokémon throw at it (even Aerodactyl for example) and consumes its Petaya Berry. Paralysis is redirected with Synchronize, so I still outspeed them. But other options, like Latios or a fast Choice Bander such as Aerodactyl might do as well. Salamence doesn't, because it fears Starmie. I was pretty satisfied with this team, but the aforementioned critical hits kept annoying me, and that + being one Pokémon 'behind' can quickly ruin the fun. On the other hand, the strategy worked 'often enough' for me to keep thinking about other ways to make the first Pokémon setup the second.
The second team involves a similar Gardevoir or Latios with Memento, and sets up KINGLER, who was Shell Armor preventing crits, and hits really hard with SD Double-Edge. This worked better for me than Battle Armor Kabutops did, because that extra 10 base Attack really helps scoring OHKOs. Also it brings itself into Salac range with a Substitute up against the right opponents. It has a really bad coverage problem, however, and there's no way to cover all those with the third Pokémon. The third Pokémon should be a problem-solver, not something I need in an average battle. By the way, I'm convinced that Choice Band can be useful in the Battle Arena, but only on the last Pokémon, when the probability is high that it's facing their last as well.
In the third attempt to make a setup I kind of succeeded! It gives up the idea of FastLax and focuses on using Snorlax' enormous bulk instead. So we want to keep Snorlax alive and let it Belly Drum. How is that done? By using Wish! Latias is without doubt the most bulky Wish user, has Reflect and other useful moves like Safeguard, Thunder Wave and Charm. This is the resulting team, but it's still in the testing phase, mainly the third Pokémon:
Latias is extremely bulky and outspeeds the 100 BS Tier. It usually starts off with Safeguard if deemed important, as status effects such as confusion can quickly spell doom in the Arena. It also allows Snorlax to run Leftovers instead of Lum Berry, which greatly benefits it. Mist Ball is surprisingly good and was eventually selected over Light Screen, because it has 50% chance to lower their SpA and allows Latias to beat Fighting types and win against many Pokémon in general. For example, it shuts down those pesky Double Teamers like Shuckle, Registeel and Regirock (the latter with the aid of Reflect) during judgement. That's the beauty of this Latias: if it doesn't pass the Wish to Snorlax for some reason, it uses it on its own to rinse and repeat against the next opponent. Mental Herb is good because I use Safeguard anyway, but sometimes Lum Berry is still important, for example if I use Reflect on Turn 1 and they use Body Slam. Or against random Ice Beams for example.
Bulky as hell, and its moves OHKO the majority of Pokémon after Belly Drum. It could invest more in Attack and guarantee the KOs on e.g. Armaldo, but I prefer the extra bulk in Special Defense instead. Usually it Belly Drums and immediately gets its lost health back with Latias' Wish, Leftovers healing even more in the process. Then the only Pokémon that beat it fairly one-on-one are Fighting-types, which Salamence always takes care of.
Salamence @ Choice Band Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 96 HP / 252 Atk / 160 Spe
Hasty Nature (+Spe, -Def)
IVs: 30 SpA / 30 SpD / 30 Spe
- Hidden Power [Flying]
- Earthquake
- Rock Slide - Flamethrower
Salamence is probably the best Fighting-type counter in the game, and it finishes the most Pokémon that still beat Snorlax 1-on-1. Possible replacements are Alakazam, Latios, Gyarados, CB Tauros, CB Aerodactyl and maybe even non-CB Slaking.
Another idea is to use Yawn AND Wish in that order, but only Chimecho and Togetic (and Smeargle, haha) have access to those moves. EDIT: that's not right: Chimecho doesn't get Wish. But Kangaskhan gets both moves if you're willing t use the NYPC Event Pokemon.
The current big problem of the team is how to beat OHKO abusers more consistently; between Latias' passivity and Snorlax slowness, they don't have to depend on their Quick Claw and get too many opportunities. Salamence doesn't even kill them outright. I've been thinking about running a HP Grass / Tbolt Sturdy Magneton or a Forretress of some kind, but these are shitty last Pokémon in general. Even if they get rid of 1st Pokémon OHKOers, they probably still lose to the next opponent(s). Maybe use a Giga Drain Forretress as an Explosion lead? Who knows, I think that Pokémon consistently beats all OHKO abusers in the Arena. For example, it may not KO Walrein but it will win the judgement with both Skill and Body through the healing from Giga Drain.
I hope you like to think along, as always. I will upload a sample streak here as usual. Thanks for reading!
Alright, just a quick update about my Battle Dome Open Level streak.. (On Retail)
It ended at 108 wins, I lost against brightpowder Exeggutor, and I missed both Shadow Balls with Slaking and the Ice Punch with Gengar.. Yea, it sucked lmao
However, I changed one small thing about my team..
Instead of using Gyarados as my 3rd team member, I'm using Heracross (a really cool set) to beat Tucker consistently.
Here is the PokePaste:
It has enough HP and SpDef investment to let its Substitute survive a surf from Tucker's Swampert.
At the same time, Heracross helps alot against some of my teams biggest threats, like the Regi-trio and Jolteon.
Using Heracross there is original! It really seems as if Gengar + Slaking is becoming the goto core for the Battle Dome.
For the third Pokémon, I used Adedede's Suicune with great results. I also tried using CLAMPERL of all things; it OHKOs anything not too specially defensive (like Skarmory, lol), but most importantly it quickly beats OHKO users and Regirock. It also beats Registeels.
But recently I've been playing around with Forretress; it's a really nice anti OHKO Pokémon that fully makes use of the AI having only 3 IV's. This makes it beat the bulky Sheer Cold waters with the gimmicky Giga Drain in the long run and it fits the theme of drawing by using Explosion. It also beats Tuckers annoying Protect Metagross, and the Jolteon Ezio is talking about, with Earthquake. It needs quite the particular EV spread for this that I'm still optimizing. But the set would be something like Giga Drain, Earthquake, Explosion and a filler such as HP Bug for Lati@s, a screen, Spikes or Toxic. In fact, with HP Bug, it would beat Tucker on its own pretty consistently. And it's a good Leftovers candidate; I guess Protect isn't bad either because of the enormous HP accumulation we would get by using Giga Drain in between.
I wanted to document some arena strategies that are unique to the arena to hopefully get more people addicted to the feeling of winning on judging when you've calculated your moves.
I've created some videos with commentary that I hope will be enjoyable, so first the classic fake out, protect, dodge:
There are many pokemon that once locked in against fakeout have zero chance of winning. To estimate I filtered the list of 900 frontier pokemon for pokemon faster than shiftry, any set with leftovers, any pokemon with inner focus, and any set with the moves swords dance, dragon dance, double team, calm mind; we're still left with 600 pokemon that this strategy beats. The hard part is calculating how many of those you can tie with or beat otherwise and how it compares to the lists traditional sweepers can beat since traditional sweepers will probably beat all sets of a specific species while this strategy might only beat 3 of 4 of those sets. So it's really about figuring out what you can beat with "double dig" and preparing your other two pokemon to handle everything else. (I ignored bright powder and quick claw because in the arena they are not worth trying to get around besides just hoping they aren't triggered)
(you need to also filter out rock/steel pokemon that resist fake out as you will lose/tie skill)
Next is Yawn:
The video shows yawn as a strategy to win judging and yawn as a way to set up.
Yawn is great because it bypasses accuracy so you get the skill point even against evasive opponents making it the most accurate sleep setter in the game. On top of that, them falling asleep helps you win skill. Any strategy that has you slower than the opponent makes you open to so many hax, but I think that's just where we're at in the arena. I think an attacking snorlax is probably the way to go, but I think rest or yawn is probably better than curse. In some ways the rounds lasting exactly 3 turns invalidates the speed stat and when combined with the idea that having higher BST and stronger move damage you should win body, slow strong pokemon like snorlax
Other arena notes:
Latios with Lum berry is the only pokemon I like having as an anchor since it can pull off the most reverse sweeps. Like yeah everyone knows it's good, but I'm saying it's the only pokemon that's good, it's in it's own tier. I like salamance a lot as well but it's 4x weakness to ice means it's less likely to be able to slug it out with a clean up kill as the ancor, probably in the same tier as a lead.
Dragon dance Tyranitar actually impressed me as a lead as well.
