Metagame [Gen 9] Modern Gen 2

[Noglastica]

MG2 DISCORD LINK ​

What is Modern Gen 2?
Modern Gen 2 (MG2) is a solomod that puts every move, type and Pokemon from Gen 9 National Dex into Gen 2, creating a distinctly unique metagame. Mechanics are taken from gen2customgame on PS! and aren't changed by the council. Only Pokemon legal in Gen 9 National Dex are legal here.

To play, paste the challenge command in the PMs of the person you want to challenge.

Challenge Command

/challenge gen2customgame @@@ -Alakazite, -Baton Pass, -Fake Out, -Last Respects, -Shell Smash, -Soul Dew, -Annihilape, -Arceus, -Calyrex-Ice, -Calyrex-Shadow, -Darkrai, -Deoxys, -Deoxys-Attack, -Deoxys-Speed, -Dialga, -Dragapult, -Eternatus, -Giratina, -Groudon, -Ho-oh, -Iron Bundle, -Iron Valiant, -Koraidon, -Kyogre, -Kyurem-White, -Lugia, -Lunala, -Magearna, -Manaphy, -Marshadow, -Mew, -Mewtwo, -Miraidon, -Naganadel, -Necrozma-Dusk-Mane, -Necrozma-Dawn-Wings, -Palkia, -Pheromosa, -Rayquaza, -Regigigas, -Reshiram, -Slaking, -Solgaleo, -Tapu Koko, -Volcarona, -Xerneas-*, -Yveltal, -Zacian, -Zamazenta, -Zekrom, -Zeraora, -Zygarde, +Deoxys-Defense, +Zygarde 10%, -all abilities, +No Ability, Sleep Clause Mod, Evasion Clause, OHKO Clause, Endless Battle Clause, !! Max Move Count = 4, !! Max Level = 100, !! Max Team Size = 6, Obtainable Formes

Here's a rundown of MG2's mechanics:

• Abilities do not exist
• Special is seperated into Special Attack and Defense for all Pokemon.
• Moves are assigned to physical or special depending on typing.
  • Physical: Normal, Fighting, Flying, Poison, Ground, Rock, Steel, Bug, Ghost, Fairy
  • Special: Fire, Water, Grass, Electric, Psychic, Ice, Dark, Dragon
• Moves and Pokemon are their earliest versions.
• Standard GSC mechanics, e.g. rest can be called through sleep talk, steel resists ghost and dark types, etc.
• Some moves and items are changed, more info here.

F.A.Q

Q: How do I build a team?
There are multiple ways to build a team in the Pokemon Showdown builder. I would recommend creating a National Dex Ubers/OU team and selecting the Pokemon and moves that you want, as you normally would. As abilities are banned, you must replace all your Pokemon's abilities with "No Ability" in order to battle. Do not give your Pokemon EVs as they will automatically be given maximum EVs in Gen 2.

Q: How does Air Balloon/Heavy-Duty Boots work?
In MG2, Heavy-Duty Boots does not make the holder immune to all hazards, but instead only protects them from stealth rocks and webs. Air Balloon works normally, except that it is not destroyed unless hit behind a substitute or knocked off. The "buff" of Air Balloon and "nerf" of Heavy-Duty Boots, combined with the viability of Leftovers, creates a sort of "holy trinity" of items that most Pokemon use.

Q: How do the new types work?
Using GSC mechanics, steel resists both dark and ghost types. Fairy moves are physical and are not resisted by fire, though they are resisted by steel and poison as normal. Most secondary effects of status moves do not occur against a defensive typing of the same move, i.e. scald cannot burn a water type, though electric type Pokemon can still be paralyzed through electric type secondary effects . However, some status moves will work against a Pokemon with the same defensive typing: Will-o-Wisp will burn fire types, Thunder Wave will paralyze electric types, but Toxic will not poison opposing poison types.

Council:
Noglastica
R8
3MoreMinutes
qsns

 

[Noglastica]

Ruleset:
Banned Pokemon

Alakazam Mega
Annihilape
Arceus
Calyrex-Ice
Calyrex-Shadow
Darkrai
Deoxys
Deoxys-Attack
Deoxys-Speed
Dialga
Dragapult
Eternatus
Giratina
Groudon
Ho-oh
Iron Bundle
Iron Valiant
Koraidon
Kyogre
Kyurem-White
Lugia
Lunala
Magearna
Manaphy
Marshadow
Mew
Mewtwo
Miraidon
Naganadel
Necrozma-Dusk-Mane
Necrozma-Dawn-Wings
Palkia
Pheromosa
Rayquaza
Regigigas
Reshiram
Slaking
Solgaleo
Tapu Koko
Volcarona
Xerneas
Yveltal
Zacian
Zamazenta
Zekrom
Zeraora
Zygarde

Banned Moves

• Fake Out
• Shell Smash
• Last Respects
• Baton Pass

Banned Items

• Alakazite
• Soul Dew

Clauses

• Species Clause: two Pokemon with the same national pokedex number cannot be used.
• OHKO Clause: a Pokemon cannot have Fissure, Guillotine, Horn Drill or Sheer Cold in its moveset.
• No Ability Clause: a Pokemon has to have the No Ability ability.
• Endless Battle Clause: players cannot intentionally prevent an opponent from ending the game without forfeiting.
• Sleep Clause Mod: players cannot sleep multiple Pokemon on the opposing team.

Other Metagame Rulesets

MG2 Ubers

Banned Pokemon
Zacian-Crowned

Banned Moves

• Fake Out
• Baton Pass

Banned Items

• Rusted Sword

Clauses

• Species Clause: two Pokemon with the same national pokedex number cannot be used.
• OHKO Clause: a Pokemon cannot have Fissure, Guillotine, Horn Drill or Sheer Cold in its moveset.
• No Ability Clause: a Pokemon has to have the No Ability ability.
• Endless Battle Clause: players cannot intentionally prevent an opponent from ending the game without forfeiting.
• Sleep Clause Mod: players cannot sleep multiple Pokemon on the opposing team.

Challenge Command

/challenge gen2customgame @@@ !! Max Level = 100, !! Max Team Size = 6, !! Max Move Count = 4, Obtainable Formes, -Fake Out, -Rusted Sword, -baton pass, -all abilities, +No Ability, Endless Battle Clause, OHKO Clause, Evasion Moves Clause, Species Clause, Sleep Clause Mod

MG2 LC

Ruleset:
Banned Pokemon
Basculin-White-Striped
Qwilfish-Hisui
Sneasel-Hisui
Dunsparce
Chansey
Scyther
Girafarig
Type:Null

Banned Moves

• Fake Out
• Sonicboom
• Dragon Rage

Clauses

• Species Clause: two Pokemon with the same national pokedex number cannot be used.
• OHKO Clause: a Pokemon cannot have Fissure, Guillotine, Horn Drill or Sheer Cold in its moveset.
• No Ability Clause: a Pokemon has to have the No Ability ability.
• Endless Battle Clause: players cannot intentionally prevent an opponent from ending the game without forfeiting.
• Sleep Clause Mod: players cannot sleep multiple Pokemon on the opposing team.

Challenge Command

/challenge gen2customgame @@@ !!Default Level = 5, !! Max Level = 5, Little Cup, -Fake Out, -Basculin-White-Striped, -Qwilfish-Hisui, -Sneasel-Hisui, -Dunsparce, -chansey, -scyther, -Girafarig, -Type:Null, +Onix, +Lickitung, OHKO Clause, Evasion Moves Clause, Species Clause, -Sonicboom, -Dragon Rage, -all abilities, +No Ability, Sleep Clause Mod

 

[Noglastica]

Sample Teams
Slowking Balance by anique -
Kyurem-B Hyper Offense by Noglastica -

Sample Sets
Full MG2OU Sample Sets

Import Sets
Blank Calc Set Import

 

[Noglastica]

MG2 OU VR 4.5 UPDATE
Last Updated 18 December, 2024.
​

A+ Rank:
Latios
Walking Wake

A Rank:
Blacephalon
Iron Boulder
Iron Moth
Zapdos

A- Rank:
Flutter Mane
Great Tusk
Iron Treads
Melmetal
Tapu Fini

B+ Rank:
Empoleon
Garchomp
Heatran

B Rank:
Blissey
Garganacl
Gholdengo
Gliscor
Kyurem-Black
Meowscarada
Shaymin-Sky
Sneasler
Starmie

B- Rank:
Chi-Yu
Kommo-o
Raging-Bolt
Slither-Wing
Slowbro-Mega
Volcanion

C+ Rank:
Azelf
Electrode-Hisui
Greninja
Moltres

C Rank:
Celesteela
Dhelmise
Genesect
Hoopa-Unbound
Hydreigon
Latias
Metagross
Raikou
Skarmory
Suicune
Tyranitar
Urshifu-Rapid-Strike
Victini
Zoroark-Hisui
Toedscruel
Dragonite
Aerodactyl
Landorus-Incarnate
Cyclizar

C- Tier:
Archeops
Camerupt-Mega
Diancie
Gastrodon
Glimmora
Goodra-Hisui
Kingambit
Scream Tail
Sinistcha
Slowking
Toxapex
Primarina
Lucario
Golisopod

 

[Noglastica]

Reserved

 

[teamo]

L tier don't play

 

[rarre]

mg2 lc >

 

[Lialiabeast]

As the best Modern Gen 2 player alive, I am so happy rn! Thank you Noglastica

 

[Noglastica]

With a tour starting in just over a week, I'm hoping it brings in some new players and some interest to mg2. "Big Smogon" also said we need to post more in this thread. I'll to break this down into multiple sections if there's parts you're interested in reading/parts you are not. VR thoughts are pretty long but the other sections are shorter. Sometime next week I'll have another post focusing on the hazards metagame.

Current VR Thoughts/VR Updates

I'll talk about most of the Pokemon in each tier, but won't go into as much depth for the lower tiers.

S Rank
Dragapult
Mew
Iron Bundle

Pult I still think is the best mon in the game.Good on offense obviously for its solid damage output and speed tier, but I think its at its best on balance teams where it can u-turn and spam wisp with hazards up, and serve as a great revenge option if needed.

Mew will always be good simply because it learns nearly every move in the game. Strong bulk on balance teams as well. My favorite set is knock, wisp, spikes, and softboiled. There are not that many good spikers so that + knock and wisp makes it so good.

Iron Bundle is one of the most threatening Pokemon from a purely offensive standpoint. Has a similarly great speed tier where it really just has to worry about Pult (it eats pult draco but can't OHKO back either). Very few Pokemon in the tier can wall it, and even less after 1-2 flip turns forcing them out.

A
Melmetal
Blacephalon
Blissey
Chi Yu
Heatran
Latias
Terrakion

Melm is great and can demolish unprepared teams. Great physical wall with Balloon and eats basically every unboosted CC and can usually farm back with twave+dib. Best set is still sleep talk + rest + twave + bash with balloon.

Clown op, great on offense, stabs are almost impossible to switch into. Steels and ghosts like to switch into booms but get hit super effective by the clown. That being said, less dominant with garg which walls it and eats boom. Chi Yu similarly tough to switch into but without the threat of boom. Things like bliss and fini wall indefinitely. Plot flame charge I think is its only really solid set. Probably around the A- to B+ range though.

Bliss is so good and on basically every stall team and a good number of balance teams. Obviously soft boiled is a given, but gen 9 mg2 has given a strong rise to aromatherapy blissey usage. I'll admit I don't know the best attacking move for it. Walled by ghosts in mg2 is rough but I still think toss is best. Ibeam is really nice vs some things but losing a 1v1 to taunt bundle basically means your team gets farmed.

Heatran is AWESOME. Use tran. Teams basically need a fire type to break through all the balloon steel types that can also eat (or be immune to) fighting type attacks. Rocks usage is great, wisp usage is great, access to boom is great, taunt isn't bad, roar isn't bad. Can choose from fire blast, lava plume, and magma storm (with either taunt or boom for bliss and stuff).

Latias is solid. Not too much to say on this mon. CM usage has dropped across the board in gen 9 so its tough to place this mon right now. It's not bad though.

Terrakion is always good. Can only be checked by a few things and they don't like coming in multiple times. CC + Sedge are given, SD basically mandatory. Last can flex into air slash (fighting type terrak checks), earthquake (poisons, knocked balloon, steels you dont want -1 for), megahorn (ass but for psychics like lati which aren't used as much) and rock polish (good mu vs offensive stuff that can't switch in as well but tries to revenge).


B

Explanations will be shorter outside of the ape

Ape is really good, certainly will be moving to A if not S rank after the tour. Can run three sets but only one is really good. BU CC Shadow ball rest is certainly the best set, very little switches in at +1 and nothing can OHKO it with its great bulk. Solid enough speed tier to outrun the fat stuff that can eat, and bulky enough to eat all the stuff faster than it. Can also run a less threatening sleep talk over bulk up set which isn't great but can still apply pressure. Last set is utility with rocks + uturn which is a nice combo to scare them but theres some better mons for it. Probably only usable on bulky offense.

Annihilape
Ferrothorn
Garchomp
Garganacl
Gastrodon
Gholdengo
Latios
Metagross (Mega)
Skarmory
Slowbro Galar (Mega)
Sneasler
Starmie
Toxapex
Iron Treads
Great Tusk
Walking Wake

Ferro + Chomp + gastro + Skarm
all solid spikers, basically choosing between these + mew if you want spikes. All solidly bulky and good on all sorts of teams.

Sneasler good pivot mon and not great stabs to switch into late with hazards but alot of teams have answers.

Toxapex + Gholdengo + Garganacl
just really solid walls. Gho is why you need a fire type. Also psychic for ape and sneasler is cute. Pex and gho are better walls but both are momentum sinks while garg's salt cure sucks to switch into.

Great Tusk, Iron Treads, Starmie
the three good spinners. Treads is probably the best and best against fat teams, starmie finen against both, and tusk solid vs more offensive while being on more offensive teams.

Slowbro-Galar + Metagross
two mons that mega and setup with CM and Cosmic Power respectively. Needs to be considered though mgross usage is basically 0 right now.

Latios just a worse latias basically but finds a niche in doing alot more to ape while still eating +1 sball.

Walky Wake is really good vs offensive teams but can just get sat on by blissey + it has limited pp. chooses from stabs + rest + stalk/flamethrower


C
Even shorter, just a brief bit about what they do

taunt + cm + recover with nice speed tier
heal bell that checks bundle without bliss momentum sink with uturn
plot rocks fblast boom
decent semi check vs fat stuff. only 3 good moves
recovery + tspikes
skarm without spikes but with pivot
shed tail (bad)
spinner that ghosts dont switch in on + spinblocker
mega or not mega, one of the few viable faries, spikes + rocks, can even hbell
basically bad treads now, no knock and worse bulk but gets SD
can go shiftegear with flamethrower and other coverage + boom
mega with plot (no spa stabs) lets you do a nice 80 chip to every mon in the tier at +2 and get ohkod back
rocks, uturn, knock, roost, SD, underrated but still probably C or C+
spikes taunt and not great stabs to switch into. good fast lead.
rocks ww recovery. too many balloons and no knock though + no sand
basically no CM users and even less psychic types + chi yu sends doom to the bin. not a bad mon but meta no longer needs it
really scary mon, might go up to B although very little usage. recovery and surprisingly bulky but also access to scary plot sets that nothing really wants to switch into.
checks a good number of physical threats in the tier but no great recovery and no physical electric
underrated, I spam this mon alot. picks up tspikes with boots on it, uturn, recovery, scary powerful fire blast, psychic as well is good.
recovery, wisp, spinblock basically
not great not bad, feels like a less threatening terrak despite a better speed tier.
gets up rocks and good mu vs some teams
bundle check, not as resilient as cuno but dtail and sub can have good mu's as well
knock + rocks +turn
less psychics means less of a niche, power creep also doesn't help. fplay + knock + turn
SD + phys stabs is nice, probs needs sub. not fast enough in a pult meta. good breaker but cant switch out cause mega mechanics
scald ibeam hypnosis recover. sits on some stuff but basically NU right now. probably just better options.
i think its trash and would put it UR but SOME council members like it cause it has suit (unviable move) and knock
recovery and rocks + good vs the good spinners but just better options. probably gonna be UR. not enough bulk.
good electric, can use CM sets but i think best is just roar with stalk.
mediocre. grounds not as mandatory so it can rarely be threatening. basically clicks electric move or boom. can spin but not good.
gets up spikes and honestly not many common leads want to deal with it.
recovery and chilly reception for pivot
decent spa check for some mons but curse sets arent the best (especially with ape running around) but has boom
less strong walky wake and not bulky enough as something like the next mon on the list
probably a C+ B- mon, fini has great typing and basically just runs stalk with scald moonblast. Checks a REALLY good number of scary threats in the tier.
spinner that also has knock and tspikes
no ability and no recovery. not great but good stats.
less need for stab fplay and suit. rocks though...
least useful of the 3 main hbell users, least recovery pp, uturn weakness, stab fplay less relevant etc
sounds great on paper with great stabs and uturn but then they just outspeed or go bliss :skull:
good stabs + boom
electrics aren't THAT good imo + no static but uturn is nice. doesn't like needing to choose between tbolt and thunder though...
bu and stabs is nice
same as zap but no recovery but has good speed tier.

The mg2 Item Holy Trinity

Basically there's three really good items in mg2 on balance/fat teams. Offense can choose any of these three but also uses lum which can be really good against teams that seek to check pokemon with status (primarily wisp).

The three main items are Heavy-Duty Boots, Air Balloon, and Leftovers.

Boots no longer make the holder immune to spikes and tspikes, but still are immune to rocks and webs. Good for fires (though frail fires like Blacephalon can also use balloon because they're getting OHKOd anyway and like ignoring eq's) and other 2x or 4x rock weak Pokemon.

Air Balloon is not destroyed when the Pokemon is hit. It can only be removed by Knock off, or if the Pokemon with air balloon uses substitute and you hit the substitute with any attack (for whatever reason that will break it.) Balloon is used on a lot of steel types which basically drops their weaknesses to just fighting and fire. Also used on stuff like Dragapult that likes to come in alot but doesn't want to be taking spikes AND tspike damage every time it comes in.

Leftovers is probably the most common, certainly on bulkier teams that usually have 1-2 balloon and 1-2 boots users. Even stuff like Tran (which you should use) really enjoys leftovers despite balloon getting rid of its 4x weakness just because coming in on double hazards so many times can be annoying. Really good on stuff both with and without recovery moves. Something like mew really prefers leftovers more than boots just because how long it can sit without switching.

Lum is best for physical attackers, there's not really any special attackers with lum because twave is really the only threat.

The balance of offense, defense, and stall

The best part about MG2 is that offense, defense, and stall are all so incredibly balanced. You ask 3 people what the strongest playstyle is and you might get 3 different answers.

I'd say pure offense is less common than bulky offense just because of what can be considered "viable" is usually bulkier. Because everything has max evs, the very frail but high damage stuff can't OHKO stuff from neutral. However, it can be OHKOd by stuff that a bulkier attacker can take 2 of. Bulky offense likes lum and physical attackers more just to essentially ignore the blissey problem that special attack heavy teams need to deal with. Pivots are good, its just standard offense really. It also appreciates having a stalk mon (my personal favorite is Wake) to deal with wake and provide some defensive structure vs opposing teams. I like using multiple fire types on offense because 120bp fire blast but also something like Clown is really for progress but I also love throwing tran on both offense and bulky offense because its a solid pult check + rocks + boom. Offense I think needs at least 1 boom, probably 2. Sometimes theres just something you can't break but click one button and boom (heh) now its broken.

Balance is my personal favorite and I think it does edge out the other two in viability. The trick to balance is just building a good enough defensive core to beat offense while having as much offensive pressure of your own so you can also deal with stall. The general checklist I use is making sure I can deal with the broken stuff, make sure you have a fire type to break steels, a s cateel type so you can wall idiots who don't bring a fire type, and usually you want a setup mon or stalk mon to try to make progress vs other fat teams. This is where pult makes its money. In mg2 gen 8 I had 7 balance teams that I really liked, and all 7 had dragapult. Alot of progress can be made vs every kind of team with wisp + hazards. I don't think you NEED double hazards on balance, but if you can fit it, it makes teams alot better. Spin isn't always brought either, so you don't even need a ghost to spinblock even if you have double or single hazards, but I think bringing either Pult or Ape is a good idea.


Stall is not really fun to play with in my opinion, and is really not fun to play against. Thankfully, R8 uses it in every game. Needs to be able to check every main threat in the game. Everything should have a recovery move even if its rest. You need an aroma/hbell user for status and your own rest. No reason not to use blissey on stall. Best spdf wall, somehow eats alot of neutral and unboosted physical attacks. You basically need double hazards. Tspikes is optional obviously, the main argument against it is that it blocks wisp (which is a funny problem to have). That being said, getting rid of most lums vs offense is nice. Doesnt need but wants roar/ww to deal with some bulky setup stuff. Basically needs a ghost otherwise your hazards are just not going to be up and progress becomes 5x harder. Don't need a spin of your own but will struggle against other balance/stall teams that DO have a spinner.

 

[R8]

Quick post about what I think you need to know to make a good team in this format. I think this is a very fun metagame, and I hope this will help newcomers to get into it (join the discord, it is linked in the OP!!)

MG2 Mechanics
If you are already familiar with GSC mechanics you shouldn't be too confused by what is happening in MG2 in general. You can find the full mechanic doc, however most weird behaviours are niche so I'll just mention the main ones here:

-The immense majority of gen3+ moves work like the gen they were introduced (ex: defog doesn't remove hazards)
-Certain future items do not work, the main ones being: choice items, weakness berries, (Besides Chilan), Z-Moves, Life Orb, Rocky Helmet, Weakness Policy and Eviolite.
-Certain future moves do not work, the main ones being Wish, Healing Wish, Rage Fist and Revival Blessing.
-Heavy Duty Boots only protects you from Stealth Rocks and Sticky Webs: not Spikes (which still are limited to one layer) or TSpikes.
-Air Balloon does not pop unless hit behind a Substitute or by Knock Off. (It really isn't as strong as what you'd expect, and is mostly used as a way to avoid Spikes - the tier still provides plenty of excellent fire and fighting types to break through steels abusing Air Ballon, and Electrics are not that good despite this buff. Ground is still an excellent defensive type as well, so grounds are still around and doing good. (join the Iron Treads propaganda club))
-Scald cannot burn Water types, Scorching Sand cannot burn Ground types.
-Mega Stones only work once: Mega Evolution is invisible to the opponent and goes away once you switch out

Threats you'll need to have ways out against

Like in any metagame, there are some threats that might make your life miserable if you don't think about including answers to them. Here are what I think are the most important ones, with a short (I'm lazy) description of what they currently run most of the time, and some options you have to check them. Of course you'd want to be able to deal with most of the metagame, those are just the ones I believe need some extra attention.
keep in mind we are still early in the meta, so everything here might become outdated very quickly!

Dragapult

Spoiler

Air Balloon Wisp + U-Turn + Draco Meteor + Shadow Ball is its most common set - not much else is used right now. Fire Blast exist but is very hard to fit, and only hits Melmetal which isn't that common. Reminder that gen2 burns does 12% per turn, and Wisp has no immunities in gen2!
It is especially threatening with hazards up, as not a lot wants to eat rocks/spikes + wisp/uturn. Bulky resttalkers are the best answers you can come up with, Air Balloon Melmetal probably being the being the best one as it resists Pult's STABs while being immune to spikes + resisting rocks. Outside of that, if you are running a very offensive team you can probably force a trade with something holding a Lum Berry, otherwise you're probably going to have a Rest user able to handle it.

UPDATE EDIT: Pult started to run Fire Blast more and more, so right now the most common Dragapult checks probably are Tapu Fini and Heatran.

Iron Bundle

Spoiler

Flip Turn + Freeze Dry + Hydro Pump + Filler option, often Taunt, but has other options that can probably be looked at.
Very straightforward mon: it is fast and clicks its stabs including Flip Turn. On offense you generally get away with Dragapult + a switch in (generally Ferro or Kyurem), while on bulkier playstyles you'd probably need at least 2 Pokemon that can handle it well, or at least having a team that doesn't give it too much opportunities - or just win first. Toxic Spikes can be a big threat to it, as they bypass Boots. In general, you shouldn't have a team where Bundle can click flip turn vs half of your mons.

Annihilape (RAGE FIST DOESN'T WORK!) Banned lol

Spoiler

Rest + Shadow Ball + Close Combat + Bulk Up/Sleep Talk - there is room for exploration for other sets, although imo stealth rock stuff are bad.
Excellent stab combination and also really bulky, you want to make sure you aren't giving it free turns too easily - which isn't too hard considering lot of the tier has access to moves that can dent it on the switch -, and if you do you probably want a strong defensive answer such as Haze Toxapex. The Rest Bulk up set can be forced to sleep and taken advantage of that way since it cannot fit Sleep Talk. It still is a newly discovered mon so there is probably counterplay waiting to be found.

Air Balloon steels ( (<- tends to prefer leftovers))

Spoiler

Well, not a lot to say here, beside that grounds won't be enough vs those unless you wall them or can knock them off. On offensive teams Fires types are often very good at killing Steels, and generally good at punishing them considering the Fires types can be incredibly though to switch into. They are also generally not very threatening offensively (barring Heatran), so you can also take advantage of that.

Terrakion

Spoiler

Swords Dance + Stone Edge + Close Combat + Filler, running Air Balloon or Lum Berry
Gholdengo, Annihilape, Great Tusk are the clearer defensive answers, while you can revenge kill it with a lot of faster stuff that can hit it super effectively after a bit of chip (Bundle, Lati twins, Starmie, Walking Wake, etc)

Blacephalon

Spoiler

Shadow Ball + Fire Blast + Explosion + Filler (Substitute is common) - Heavy Duty Boots is a common item, though you can go for Eject Pack Overheat or Normal Gem to boost Explosion to insane levels.
Fairly easy to revenge kill (be careful around substitute though) but very hard to wall - Fire Blast hits like a freight train, and has good odds to 2HKO Heatran after Stealth Rocks. Most bulky Fire resists can force it to boom - Garganacl in particular deserves a mention as Shadow Ball and even Explosion bounces off against it.

Chi-Yu

Spoiler

Nasty plot + flame charge + stabs, runs boots or Lum Berry
Similar to Blacephalon, but has access to Nasty Plot and runs Flame Charge more often that Blace, and is still very strong despite not having access to its ability. It is more scary on paper than in practice as it still needs two turns to fully set up - however you'll still want to be careful in the builder against this Pokemon if you think it can get free setup turns against your team.

Lati twins

Spoiler

Recover + Psychic move + Calm Mind + Filler - LOT of other sets to be explored most likely
The Latis are not as common as they were last gen, but they are still something you want to plan for. Toxic + something able to handle refresh sets work, Stab foul plays (which is special in this generation, so it "steals" special attack instead of attack) work, twave melm works, phazing works until it is the last mon, etc

Will-O-Wisp and Hazards

Spoiler

Wisp has no immunities, do 12% per turn, and Mew and Dragapult tend to click that move a lot, so you'll need a plan against it - this involves a rest user a lot of the time (this is still a GSC metagame lol), although I imagine super offensive teams can get around wisp with Lum Berry.
Like in almost any metagame, you'll need to take account of hazards in some way, and your team should be able to execute its gameplan despite them. Probably a lot still remains to be explored about this, but here are some things I noticed:
-Offensive teams can prevent bulkier teams to get their hazards up for too free just through sheer offensive pressure and good play
-If you want to spin, make sure you can do that despite Dragapult/Annihilape, which are the most common spinblockers around. If your spinner is hardwalled long term by the ape, it's probably not a good spinner lol. Some stuff like Knock Off Iron Treads can beat it long term though, with the help of hazards from its teammates
-Bulky teams can get away by going for Pokemon that are not bothered too much by hazards while trading the opposing hazards with their own and prevent the opposing spin (like this team: https://pokepast.es/a2356b878e5a09f0)
-Most of the time, the worst that can happen to you is letting your opponent get double hazards for free while you don't get anything in return - if you're able to trade their hazards with your own hazards, I think you'll be fine more often than not

 

[Noglastica]

Council has decided to ban Annihilape before the upcoming tour.

The final ban votes were:
Noglastica: Do Not Ban
R8: Ban
3MoreMinutes: Ban

Thoughts behind my DNB vote

Ape is was really strong but I don't think it was unhealthy (yet). First ape usage was only around a month ago and I don't think enough time to develop counterplay was given. Keep in mind, council voted ape to B rank exactly three weeks ago. In three weeks, ape somehow jumped from a B rank to something that needed to be quickly banned? I personally don't think that enough meaningful discussion was had around ape for it to be banned, there was not enough time to develop competent checks around ape that could still exist in the metagame, and I don't think it was even all that unhealthy. I think ape might've been banned eventually in several weeks, but I stand by the fact that I think it was too early to ban ape. Not only that, but ape is easily the least threatening / unhealthy of all the banned Pokemon in mg2. I think even valiant was given more time to develop counterplay than ape was, and I would say valiant was far more threatening.

 

[teamo]

corrupt council (rare noglastica W)

 

[Noglastica]

This tier is great. Let's talk about the hazard metagame, arguably the most crucial part of the tier playstyle.

General thoughts on hazards
Obviously hazards are pretty good, otherwise I most likely wouldn't be making a post on it. Hazards are a great way for all teams to make progress, particularly with pivot moves (see dragapult). Without hazards, stall teams would be significantly harder to break.

Spikes vs Rocks
The two main forms of hazards, each with advantages. With heavy-duty boots only making the holder immune to stealth rocks and webs, it gives extra incentive to bring spikes. However, due to the fact that air balloon has regular usage because of its invulnerability, spikes are similarly ignored by a commonly used item. Spikes doing a flat 12% to everything makes them more consistent at doing damage I find than rocks do, but the number of viable spikers is much less than the number of viable rockers.

How necessary are hazards?
I wouldn't ever say that they're required, but they create more progress than any other move ever can. Especially against stall, it can be difficult for offense to make progress, particularly against sleep talk teams. Stall also demands hazards in order to slowly chip down the opposing team as they do not have the same breaking power as offense.

How good are toxic spikes?
Toxic spikes are somewhat polarizing, and as a result, fairly infrequent. There are only a few viable poison types with much usage ( ) but they completely remove toxic spikes from the field. Flying types, steel types, and balloon users can also ignore the effects of toxic spikes. This heavily mitigates the usefulness of toxic spikes, meaning it usually only hits 2-3 pokemon, and that is if they don't have a poison type to remove them first. With the common usage of rest as well, poison can also be removed on a good number of bulkier Pokemon. However, combined with knock usage, toxic spike teams can seek to increase the number of Pokemon hit by toxic spikes.

Unlike regular spikes which can only be layered once, toxic spikes can be layered twice to apply a severe poisoning effect. However, this is frequently not as effective as a single toxic spike due to GSC mechanics, in addition to it taking an extra turn to set both toxic spikes up. Switching into one layer of toxic spikes provides the normal poison effect, and deals 12.5% damage. Staying in for another turn means you're taking 25% damage. However, with two layers of toxic spikes, you only take 6% the first turn, and 12% the second, for 18% total. It is only until they stay in for three turns before two layers will do as much as one layer of toxic spikes, and they will have usually switched out by then. Additionally, switching out in GSC turns severe poisoning into a regular poisoning effect, so the potential benefits are gone the second time they come in.

There is also a genuine argument to be made about toxic spikes "blocking" better status conditions. Poison is considered generally the "worst" status move. Wisp does the same amount while also halving their attack. Many offensive teams somewhat rely on wisping physical setup sweepers like Terrakion with wisp to nullify it. Though toxic spikes can block the wisp attempt, many Terrakion users also bring lum for this exact reason, and toxic spikes can essentially remove lum. The threat of toxic spikes also discourages toxic spike wary teams from putting air balloon on their poison types which would otherwise prevent them from removing toxic spikes.

This was a bit of a long section, and one without any general conclusion. Toxic spikes can certainly be viable, and I think bringing them on offense teams with sneasler and moth can be viable as a way to help apply pressure. That being said, they should not be relied upon regularly as a way to make progress consistently.

Are webs viable?
No.

Actual answer

No, webs are bad. You can certainly use them on offense which can limit revenge killers, but they're the only hazard that is ignored by both boots and balloon. Most fast Pokemon also have one of the two as they don't benefit from leftovers or lum as much. They're also hurt by having no good webs users, meaning you essentially must sacrifice not just a slot, but an entire Pokemon for webs.

If hazards are that good, then how important are spinners?
Hazard usage has increased as the tier has developed. Usually teams would bring rocks, but dual hazards was much less common. Now, the vast majority of teams have both hazards. Surprisingly, the usage of spinners has also seemed to drop, despite hazard usage increasing. Games frequently have both sides with dual hazards set without any spinners.

This is partly because spinblocking is relatively easy compared to other OU oldgen metagames. Teams will frequently have at least one ghost type, and sometimes have two, making it very difficult to reliably spin.

There are several competent spinners, though some can struggle to regularly get a spin off. The three best are Iron Treads, Great Tusk, and Starmie. Excadrill was used much more frequently before Iron Treads but has no real niche outside of Swords Dance now.

Iron Treads: Probably the best Pokemon in the tier that uses spin, although maybe not the best at actually getting to use spin. It also does not need to run Air Balloon to spin toxic spikes without being poisoned, something that the other prominent spinners do not have. With Air Balloon Dragapult being easily the most common spinblocker, Treads is forced to knock before hitting it with Earthquake. Pult usually runs either wisp or fire blast, which also threatens treads from staying in long term. This essentially forces Treads to run rest on bulkier teams (which are the sort of teams that care about spinning). However, its solid defensive typing, great stats, and access to knock make it fairly threatening against some teams.

Great Tusk: Can be a threat against some fatter teams, and can be used to semi-check Terrakion on teams that need it, but sort of needs to run STABs + Knock + Rapid Spin, giving it much less longevity than Treads. Though Knock is probably the most droppable move here, getting walled by Balloon Pult is borderline illegal for a spinner.

Starmie: What was the most common spinner in Gen 8, Starmie has fallen off in usage quite considerably. With a respectable speed tier and solid bulk, Starmie still remains a solid choice for spinning. It also is the only spinner with a reliable recovery move. Starmie usually has Rapid Spin, Recovery, and Scald as its core three moves. It can fit Flip Turn, Thunder Wave, Ice Beam, Psychic, and Ice Beam in that final spot, giving uncertainty for whatever tries to switch in. Ice Beam and Thunder Wave are probably the best two moves to actually discourage Dragapult from switching in.

How mandatory is spinblocking?
Spinblocking is by no means mandatory, especially not on offense, but I think if you're running double hazards, you do want a ghost on your team. Dragapult is the undisputed best Pokemon in the tier right now and works on every type of team, so it isn't that difficult to fit it on your team. However, fat teams that want double hazards absolutely do need a ghost type, whether it is Dragapult or a bulkier (and more reliable) spinblocker.

Conclusion
I don't really have a conclusion. This was just my general thoughts on hazards I threw together while watching Lord of the Rings to help new players understand the metagame better.

I'll also post the total usage stats for gen 9 mg2 both before and after the tour.

 

[teamo]

:noglastica:

 

[anique]

free last respects and annilhlape corrupt council

Starmie has fallen off in usage quite considerably

rhis is just not true

Spinblocking is by no means mandatory

nah u need pult on every team

 

[Noglastica]

I forgot to do this yesterday but this is the usage/lead stats from the start of mg2gen9 until September 3, the start of the gen9 kickoff tour. Keep in mind there is banned stuff in here like Iron Valiant which adjusts usage and also usage for counterplay. I don't think there has been any crobat usage after Valiant.

MG2 OU USAGE

+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| Rank | Pokemon            | Use  | Usage % |  Win %  |
+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| 1    | Dragapult          |  144 |  48.98% |  52.78% |
| 2    | Iron Bundle        |  102 |  34.69% |  49.02% |
| 3    | Mew                |   84 |  28.57% |  52.38% |
| 4    | Heatran            |   75 |  25.51% |  52.00% |
| 5    | Blissey            |   60 |  20.41% |  55.00% |
| 6    | Melmetal           |   57 |  19.39% |  54.39% |
| 7    | Sneasler           |   56 |  19.05% |  39.29% |
| 8    | Blacephalon        |   54 |  18.37% |  48.15% |
| 9    | Annihilape         |   50 |  17.01% |  52.00% |
| 10   | Ferrothorn         |   47 |  15.99% |  46.81% |
| 11   | Garchomp           |   44 |  14.97% |  47.73% |
| 12   | Gholdengo          |   39 |  13.27% |  53.85% |
| 12   | Walking Wake       |   39 |  13.27% |  53.85% |
| 12   | Terrakion          |   39 |  13.27% |  48.72% |
| 15   | Starmie            |   38 |  12.93% |  50.00% |
| 16   | Kyurem             |   35 |  11.90% |  45.71% |
| 17   | Iron Treads        |   34 |  11.56% |  32.35% |
| 18   | Chi-Yu             |   32 |  10.88% |  59.38% |
| 19   | Iron Moth          |   29 |   9.86% |  62.07% |
| 19   | Tapu Fini          |   29 |   9.86% |  48.28% |
| 21   | Zeraora            |   25 |   8.50% |  60.00% |
| 22   | Slowbro-Galar      |   24 |   8.16% |  41.67% |
| 23   | Diancie            |   23 |   7.82% |  39.13% |
| 24   | Moltres            |   20 |   6.80% |  55.00% |
| 24   | Garganacl          |   20 |   6.80% |  45.00% |
| 26   | Great Tusk         |   19 |   6.46% |  57.89% |
| 27   | Corviknight        |   18 |   6.12% |  50.00% |
| 28   | Iron Valiant       |   17 |   5.78% |  64.71% |
| 29   | Toxapex            |   16 |   5.44% |  75.00% |
| 29   | Articuno           |   16 |   5.44% |  56.25% |
| 31   | Suicune            |   15 |   5.10% |  73.33% |
| 32   | Skarmory           |   14 |   4.76% |  28.57% |
| 33   | Gastrodon          |   13 |   4.42% |  46.15% |
| 33   | Genesect           |   13 |   4.42% |  38.46% |
| 33   | Samurott-Hisui     |   13 |   4.42% |  38.46% |
| 36   | Basculegion        |   12 |   4.08% |  25.00% |
| 37   | Latias             |   11 |   3.74% |  45.45% |
| 38   | Gliscor            |   10 |   3.40% |  60.00% |
| 38   | Empoleon           |   10 |   3.40% |  30.00% |
| 40   | Latios             |    9 |   3.06% |  55.56% |
| 40   | Ribombee           |    9 |   3.06% |  11.11% |
| 42   | Forretress         |    8 |   2.72% |  62.50% |
| 42   | Shaymin-Sky        |    8 |   2.72% |  50.00% |
| 44   | Tentacruel         |    7 |   2.38% |  42.86% |
| 44   | Muk-Alola          |    7 |   2.38% |  42.86% |
| 44   | Kingambit          |    7 |   2.38% |  28.57% |
| 44   | Regieleki          |    7 |   2.38% |  14.29% |
| 48   | Tyranitar          |    6 |   2.04% |  66.67% |
| 48   | Kommo-o            |    6 |   2.04% |  33.33% |
| 48   | Landorus-Therian   |    6 |   2.04% |  16.67% |
| 48   | Zapdos             |    6 |   2.04% |  16.67% |
| 48   | Slowking-Galar     |    6 |   2.04% |  16.67% |
| 48   | Metagross          |    6 |   2.04% |  16.67% |
| 48   | Snorlax            |    6 |   2.04% |  16.67% |
| 48   | Houndoom           |    6 |   2.04% |   0.00% |
| 56   | Raikou             |    5 |   1.70% |  60.00% |
| 56   | Excadrill          |    5 |   1.70% |  60.00% |
| 56   | Ting-Lu            |    5 |   1.70% |  60.00% |
| 56   | Brambleghast       |    5 |   1.70% |  60.00% |
| 56   | Landorus           |    5 |   1.70% |  40.00% |
| 56   | Iron Hands         |    5 |   1.70% |  40.00% |
| 56   | Steelix            |    5 |   1.70% |  40.00% |
| 56   | Azelf              |    5 |   1.70% |  20.00% |
| 56   | Deoxys-Defense     |    5 |   1.70% |   0.00% |
| 65   | Altaria            |    4 |   1.36% |  75.00% |
| 65   | Clodsire           |    4 |   1.36% |  50.00% |
| 65   | Jirachi            |    4 |   1.36% |  50.00% |
| 65   | Scream Tail        |    4 |   1.36% |  50.00% |
| 65   | Falinks            |    4 |   1.36% |  25.00% |
| 65   | Cyclizar           |    4 |   1.36% |  25.00% |
| 65   | Kartana            |    4 |   1.36% |  25.00% |
| 65   | Lopunny            |    4 |   1.36% |  25.00% |
| 65   | Celesteela         |    4 |   1.36% |  25.00% |
| 65   | Mantine            |    4 |   1.36% |  25.00% |
| 75   | Araquanid          |    3 |   1.02% | 100.00% |
| 75   | Crobat             |    3 |   1.02% |  66.67% |
| 75   | Kleavor            |    3 |   1.02% |  66.67% |
| 75   | Hydreigon          |    3 |   1.02% |  66.67% |
| 75   | Jellicent          |    3 |   1.02% |  33.33% |
| 75   | Mandibuzz          |    3 |   1.02% |  33.33% |
| 75   | Grimmsnarl         |    3 |   1.02% |  33.33% |
| 75   | Goodra-Hisui       |    3 |   1.02% |  33.33% |
| 75   | Ursaluna           |    3 |   1.02% |   0.00% |
| 75   | Aegislash          |    3 |   1.02% |   0.00% |
| 85   | Dhelmise           |    2 |   0.68% | 100.00% |
| 85   | Infernape          |    2 |   0.68% | 100.00% |
| 85   | Pikachu-World      |    2 |   0.68% |  50.00% |
| 85   | Greninja           |    2 |   0.68% |  50.00% |
| 85   | Hoopa-Unbound      |    2 |   0.68% |  50.00% |
| 85   | Cresselia          |    2 |   0.68% |  50.00% |
| 85   | Volcanion          |    2 |   0.68% |  50.00% |
| 85   | Palossand          |    2 |   0.68% |  50.00% |
| 85   | Gengar             |    2 |   0.68% |  50.00% |
| 85   | Zoroark-Hisui      |    2 |   0.68% |  50.00% |
| 85   | Electrode-Hisui    |    2 |   0.68% |   0.00% |
| 85   | Umbreon            |    2 |   0.68% |   0.00% |
| 85   | Drapion            |    2 |   0.68% |   0.00% |
| 85   | Meowscarada        |    2 |   0.68% |   0.00% |
| 85   | Zapdos-Galar       |    2 |   0.68% |   0.00% |
| 85   | Alcremie           |    2 |   0.68% |   0.00% |
| 101  | Alakazam           |    1 |   0.34% | 100.00% |
| 101  | Lucario            |    1 |   0.34% | 100.00% |
| 101  | Hippowdon          |    1 |   0.34% | 100.00% |
| 101  | Cloyster           |    1 |   0.34% | 100.00% |
| 101  | Tyrantrum          |    1 |   0.34% | 100.00% |
| 101  | Torkoal            |    1 |   0.34% | 100.00% |
| 101  | Urshifu            |    1 |   0.34% | 100.00% |
| 101  | Golisopod          |    1 |   0.34% |   0.00% |
| 101  | Slowbro            |    1 |   0.34% |   0.00% |
| 101  | Buzzwole           |    1 |   0.34% |   0.00% |
| 101  | Revavroom          |    1 |   0.34% |   0.00% |
| 101  | Quaquaval          |    1 |   0.34% |   0.00% |
| 101  | Victini            |    1 |   0.34% |   0.00% |
| 101  | Milotic            |    1 |   0.34% |   0.00% |
| 101  | Necrozma           |    1 |   0.34% |   0.00% |
| 101  | Zygarde-10%        |    1 |   0.34% |   0.00% |
| 101  | Cofagrigus         |    1 |   0.34% |   0.00% |
| 101  | Dragonite          |    1 |   0.34% |   0.00% |
| 101  | Archeops           |    1 |   0.34% |   0.00% |
| 101  | Toedscruel         |    1 |   0.34% |   0.00% |
| 101  | Tinkaton           |    1 |   0.34% |   0.00% |

MG2 OU LEADS

+ ---- + ----------------------- + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| Rank | Leads                   | Use  | Usage % |  Win %  |
+ ---- + ----------------------- + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| 1    | Iron Bundle             |   52 |  17.69% |  63.46% |
| 2    | Dragapult               |   41 |  13.95% |  43.90% |
| 3    | Mew                     |   30 |  10.20% |  60.00% |
| 4    | Zeraora                 |   17 |   5.78% |  58.82% |
| 5    | Ferrothorn              |   13 |   4.42% |  38.46% |
| 5    | Heatran                 |   13 |   4.42% |  23.08% |
| 7    | Samurott-Hisui          |   12 |   4.08% |  41.67% |
| 8    | Ribombee                |    9 |   3.06% |  11.11% |
| 9    | Blissey                 |    8 |   2.72% |  87.50% |
| 9    | Starmie                 |    8 |   2.72% |  62.50% |
| 9    | Iron Treads             |    8 |   2.72% |  12.50% |
| 12   | Skarmory                |    6 |   2.04% |  33.33% |
| 12   | Kingambit               |    6 |   2.04% |  33.33% |
| 14   | Garganacl               |    5 |   1.70% |  60.00% |
| 15   | Iron Valiant            |    4 |   1.36% | 100.00% |
| 15   | Jirachi                 |    4 |   1.36% |  50.00% |
| 17   | Araquanid               |    3 |   1.02% | 100.00% |
| 17   | Latias                  |    3 |   1.02% | 100.00% |
| 17   | Moltres                 |    3 |   1.02% |  66.67% |
| 17   | Kleavor                 |    3 |   1.02% |  66.67% |
| 17   | Melmetal                |    3 |   1.02% |  66.67% |
| 17   | Empoleon                |    3 |   1.02% |  66.67% |
| 17   | Gholdengo               |    3 |   1.02% |  66.67% |
| 17   | Kyurem                  |    3 |   1.02% |  33.33% |
| 17   | Cyclizar                |    3 |   1.02% |  33.33% |
| 17   | Regieleki               |    3 |   1.02% |  33.33% |
| 17   | Azelf                   |    3 |   1.02% |  33.33% |
| 17   | Ting-Lu                 |    3 |   1.02% |  33.33% |
| 17   | Diancie                 |    3 |   1.02% |   0.00% |
| 17   | Slowking-Galar          |    3 |   1.02% |   0.00% |
| 31   | Annihilape              |    2 |   0.68% | 100.00% |
| 31   | Pikachu-World           |    2 |   0.68% |  50.00% |
| 31   | Excadrill               |    2 |   0.68% |  50.00% |
| 31   | Corviknight             |    2 |   0.68% |  50.00% |
| 31   | Sneasler                |    2 |   0.68% |  50.00% |
| 31   | Landorus-Therian        |    2 |   0.68% |   0.00% |
| 37   | Greninja                |    1 |   0.34% | 100.00% |
| 37   | Volcanion               |    1 |   0.34% |   0.00% |
| 37   | Cofagrigus              |    1 |   0.34% |   0.00% |
| 37   | Garchomp                |    1 |   0.34% |   0.00% |

 

[anique]

Huge

 

[Noglastica]

Nog Blog Post #3: Dragapult

My opponent 3MoreMinutes is johning me in the tour right now so I wanted to write a short piece on Dragapult before I get 2-0d in round 2 of my own metagame. There has also been discussion on whether or not Dragapult should be banned since the tier first began just over a year ago. Going from a mon that council member R8 once ranked at B- to the undisputed best Pokemon in the tier deserves some analysis. This will be somewhat of a long post discussing its general viability, movesets, checks/counters, and my thoughts on the ban discussion.

Why is Dragapult so good?
There's quite a few reasons why Dragapult is so dominant. Its an incredibly threatening mixed attacker with 120atk and 100spa with an incredibly difficult to switch into STABs. Its 142 speed stat makes it the fastest ranked Pokemon in the tier after the C rank electrics Zeraora and Regieleki (Dragapult resists their electric STABs). It has access to Will-o-Wisp, U-Turn, and lots of coverage moves. With maxed EVs, it even has respectable bulky making it a solid spinblocking option on many teams with its ghost typing, and can even switch into powerful water and fire attacks which it resists through its dragon typing. In current generations, Dragapult shadow ball is already difficult to switch into, but with shadow ball being physical in mg2 it draws from the stronger 120atk stat from Dragapult, hitting even harder. With pult as a mixed attacker, physical walls that can comfortably eat shadow ball can struggle to switch into shadow ball + draco with hazards up.

The Standard Dragapult Set
For the vast majority of mg2, Dragapult has run essentially the same set every single game with marginal changes. Other sets are experimented with, but this set is by far the most common and I've easily put this set in builder a hundred times.

Dragapult @ Air Balloon
Ability: No Ability
- Draco Meteor
- Shadow Ball
- U-turn
- Will-O-Wisp

Each and every aspect of this set provides a very valuable purpose.

Draco Meteor is the bread and butter move that you'll be clicking multiple times against opposing offense. Not only are there other opposing top tier dragons in the tier, but its also your strongest move you can click on a given turn and is usually your move used to revenge chipped opponents. While a 140bp (old gen Draco Meteor) STAB is powerful, the max bulk EVs does allow a good number of Pokemon to tank this from full. Even Kyurem only takes around 70% from a pult draco.

Shadow Ball is a great 2HKO move you can click against unprepared or already broken teams. A neutral shadow ball will 2HKO most chipped Pokemon in the tier and can sweep heavily chipped teams with hazards up late game.

U-Turn is probably the most frequently clicked move on Dragapult just because of how many times it can come in during a game. Naturally, as Dragapult is the best Pokemon in the game, teams have at least one if not more heavy pult checks that it cannot break through alone. Gaining momentum with hazards up, like in GSC or any other metagame (if you say RBY I will kill you), is the best way to make progress. U-Turn lets you chip walls, scout, and honestly serve as a genuine breaking tool against Blissey (it does 20% !!!).

Will-o-Wisp is the most dropped move from this set, though it is again a very potent weapon in Dragapult's arsenal. Though the 75% accuracy can unfortunate, the extra burn damage in mg2 makes wisp far more powerful than current gen. Though a good number of Pokemon can and do use rest, and bulkier teams occasionally bring heal bell/aromatherapy, wisp is great for helping to break through bulkier teams and check physical attackers. Some offensive teams rely on pult's wisp to check opposing swords dance Terrakion.

Air Balloon helps secure Dragapult's position as a viable spinblocker, while also keeping it immune to spikes. Although stealth rock is slightly more common, immunity to both spikes and toxic spikes urges builders to bring balloon over boots to begin with. When you consider that two of the three most viable spinners in the tier (Great Tusk and Iron Treads) enjoy clicking STAB ground moves, requiring them to knock your balloon off before even having the chance to start breaking through is invaluable. That being said, Treads can easily tank both STABs from Dragapult and Tusk has access to Play Rough. However, Dragapult can threaten both of them with wisp, so they both have some form of deterrent.

No Ability is arguably the most important aspect of this build because it lets you bring Dragapult. (cringe)

Alternative Dragapult Sets
A set that originated near the beginning of the meta before Will-o-Wisp Dragapult was the standard was Fire Blast Dragapult. The idea was simple: steel types are the only type that resist BOTH ghost and dragon types (steel resists ghost in gen 2 mechanics), so why not hit steel types with a 120bp super effective move. The most common check for Dragapult was Melmetal who could eat both STABs and use sleep talk to ignore wisp pult sets.

252 SpA Dragapult Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Melmetal: 226-266 (47.6 - 56.1%) -- 82.4% chance to 2HKO

Getting to 2HKO one of your most common checks was GREAT for pult, though wisp still was used more. Fast forward several months of nearly exclusive wisp > fire blast pult usage and using a bulky steel as your pult check was standardized once again. Recently, within the past month or so, fire blast pult has grown in popularity again to counter the bulky steel check trend. What was once a tech to "gimmick" a win against teams unprepared for fire blast sets has now become a regular threat in the metagame, and something that teambuilders need to consider. No longer can teams just throw on a Melmetal to deal with pult long term.

The third set that gets used is hex pult sets which seek to capitalize on the damage boost from hitting burned targets. Though hex in mg2 is only 50bp that gets doubled to 100, this is still a usable set and has been brought as a replacement for shadow ball. It has also been used in sub + wisp + hex sets that try to tear through fatter teams.

How Do You Check Dragapult?
Well if it were easy then I wouldn't be making this post about how good Dragapult is. Any good team NEEDS to have some sort of gameplan for dealing with Dragapult. Offensive teams can bring bulkier checks for it, most notably Heatran which also gives rocks access, or they can try to just limit the effectiveness it can do to your team by bringing a large number of Pokemon not weak to pult. Bulkier teams need to have a more long term solution to pult like sleep talk Tapu Fini, though Heatran also works (a large reason Heatran is #4 in usage).

Reliable Dragapult checks need to accomplish all of the following:
1. Have some form of recovery to weather checking Dragapult multiple times
2. Not be 3HKOd by any combination of Draco Meteor + Shadow Ball + Fire Blast. With fire blast pult increasing in popularity, this has dramatically shrunk the amount of reliable Dragapult checks that fulfill this criteria.
3. Provide at least some value when switching into pult, i.e. opposing pult cannot be encouraged to stay in and keep attacking. Heatran can get up rocks, Fini can pressure with moonblast/scald...
4. Be able to consistently switch in with hazards/burn. Many Dragapult checks bring rest to negate the effects of wisp over the course of a long game, bringing me to my next question...

Is rest required in a Dragapult check? Is sleep talk?
I don't really have an answer for it. The instinctual answer is to say no because there are SOME Pokemon that can technically check Dragapult and fulfill all the above criteria but aren't necessarily used as dragapult checks (see Blissey). Blissey's susceptibility comes from taking 20% on U-Turn and not being able to heal regularly. However, the two most commonly used pult checks are Fini which runs sleep talk and Heatran which frequently runs rest on bulkier teams.

Is Dragapult Broken? Should Dragapult Be Banned?
A very topical question and something that council will certainly be discussing throughout/after the tour. I've also heard that pult might be getting Poltergeist with the new update which makes it very easy to ban pult as solid checks melt to STAB poltergeist.

252 Atk Dragapult Shadow Ball vs. 248 HP / 252 Def Tapu Fini: 90-106 (26.2 - 30.9%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

252 Atk Dragapult Poltergeist vs. 248 HP / 252 Def Tapu Fini: 123-145 (35.8 - 42.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Is Dragapult the best mon in the tier? Absolutely. Is it overpowered? Yeah. Is it "broken?" Yeah probably. However, I actively separated the "is pult broken" and "should pult be banned" into two separate questions because I do not believe they are the same. Replace Dragapult with the GSC equivalent of Snorlax. Just by reading the first line of the GSC Snorlax smogon competitive guide you get the idea: "Behold, the single most dominant Pokemon in any OU tier in history." There is no doubt that Snorlax is "overpowered," or "broken" but it provides in instrumental role in keeping the tier together. Without Snorlax, the tier would obviously look incredibly different as certain are mainly used for the ability to check Snorlax, but Snorlax also has the ability to check powerful special attackers which would tear the tier apart without its presence. Is Snorlax/should Snorlax be used as the sole check for special attackers in GSC? Of course not. Teams that only rely exclusively on Snorlax to check Zapdos/Raikou are awful teams and one thunder crit away from losing. Though I've strayed from Dragapult in mg2, the point still stands. I've used this example so many times in the council chat when talking about pult that I'm sure "snorlax" has more mentions as my dragapult comparison than it actually does for its viability/usage in mg2.

Without Dragapult in the tier, I think certain Pokemon would become much more difficult to deal with regularly. Iron Bundle is the first one that comes to mind just because Dragapult is one of the few Pokemon that can outspeed it in the tier, and it already has few checks as it is (Iron Bundle is also on the council watchlist so this point might become irrelevant in the coming weeks/months). Earlier I mentioned how wisp pult is regularly used as a semi-check for terrakion on more offensive teams. Without pult in the tier, there becomes dramatically less options for reliably checking +2 terrakion.

The common argument for banning Dragapult outside of the fact that it is incredibly threatening and difficult to deal with is that by banning it, team diversity would increase. This is also the argument regularly used for Iron Bundle. I certainly think this is a valid point. Teams would be less pressed to bring Fini/Heatran on every balance team, but I would say that the opposite could also be considered. I keep coming back to the terrak point but I do think it is a valid point (I also hate terrak). Teams as of now can afford to be terrak weak BECAUSE they have Dragapult. Because you can throw Dragapult on as the 6th mon on nearly every team, it allows you to be more flexible with the other 5 slots on your team. With Dragapult banned, I'm now essentially shepherded into bringing more dedicated terrak checks, and now I need to bring reliable ways to break through Mew and Latias, and now you're having to deal with the mass role compression that Dragapult was able to absorb. Sure, new Pokemon might gain viability and usage in the tier which I don't think anyone would say is a bad thing, but I think by banning Dragapult it forces council to certainly ban bundle and most likely several other things down the road.

I keep using the Snorlax in GSC example, but I think perhaps a better comparison is Tyranitar in ADV. Both sit around 50% usage and both are the best Pokemon in their respective tiers. Of course Tyranitar can be "limiting" in that it forces teams to bring a designated rock resist which is usually narrowed down to Metagross and Swampert (the Heatran/Fini equivalent of ADV I guess) but it plays such an integral part of the metagame that I don't support banning it, especially when I think that the metagame is fun, balanced, and very enjoyable as it is. Without sand in ADV, the tier would be dramatically different, albeit to a much greater extent than if mg2 banned Dragapult. Keep in mind, there will always be a "best" Pokemon in the tier.

The last point I'll make is that Dragapult is certainly the least "broken" thing that was banned in mg2. Previously we've banned "broken" Pokemon because they were uncheckable/heavily limiting in a very negative way. I like to say that Dragapult has me running Heatran and Tapu Fini but things like Bundle have me running Empoleon and Cresselia.

Conclusion
I've tagged the other council members in this post hoping they might share their thoughts on the matter publicly as well, although I've already heard them. I'd also love to hear other peoples thoughts on banning/keeping Dragapult, or just general thoughts to the meta. But I'm sure that instead I'll get two word messages like anique saying "ban pult" or teamo saying ":noglastica:"

TLDR

 

[teamo]

Noglastica master thesis

anyways pult is very centralizing, I've built many sets that are just to beat pult.
I would totally support a ban

 

[anique]

252 Atk Dragapult Poltergeist vs. 248 HP / 252 Def Tapu Fini: 123-145 (35.8 - 42.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Dragapult doesn’t get polt??

Is rest required in a Dragapult check? Is sleep talk?

Yes

tier, I think certain Pokemon would become much more difficult to deal with regularly. Iron Bundle

no

weather checking Dragapult

what

ban bundle

??

Teams as of now can afford to be terrak weak BECAUSE they have Dragapult.

Pult was never a Terrak check esp when the standard is lum

team diversity would increase.

yes

Replace Dragapult with the GSC equivalent of Snorlax. Just by reading the first line of the GSC Snorlax smogon competitive guide you get the idea: "Behold, the single most dominant Pokemon in any OU tier in history." There is no doubt that Snorlax is "overpowered," or "broken" but it provides in instrumental role in keeping the tier together. Without Snorlax, the tier would obviously look incredibly different as certain are mainly used for the ability to check Snorlax, but Snorlax also has the ability to check powerful special attackers which would tear the tier apart without its presence. Is Snorlax/should Snorlax be used as the sole check for special attackers in GSC? Of course not. Teams that only rely exclusively on Snorlax to check Zapdos/Raikou are awful teams and one thunder crit away from losing

True
Pult is broken but I think air balloon is the reason why it’s broken, It makes most spinners unviable or ass not to mention it’s a semi pivot to almost anything with it not worrying about hazards except rocks

 

[anique]

adding more into the bundle discussion: it’s not broken at all even without pult. It just punishes ho/teams with a shitty backbone, you don’t need to run articuno/shitmons just to check it.

 

[R8]

Is rest required in a Dragapult check? Is sleep talk?

I would say yes, definitively, unless you run an extremely aggressive team: Will-O-Wisp has no immunities, and considering how easy it can be to get rocks + spikes on the field, Burn can quickly render your check useless if it is not able to shrug it off immediately. Pokemon such as Heatran, Tapu Fini or Melmetal are themselves usually immediately forced to click Rest as soon as they switch into the move.

Is Dragapult the best mon in the tier? Absolutely. Is it overpowered? Yeah. Is it "broken?" Yeah probably. However, I actively separated the "is pult broken" and "should pult be banned" into two separate questions because I do not believe they are the same. Replace Dragapult with the GSC equivalent of Snorlax. Just by reading the first line of the GSC Snorlax smogon competitive guide you get the idea: "Behold, the single most dominant Pokemon in any OU tier in history." There is no doubt that Snorlax is "overpowered," or "broken" but it provides in instrumental role in keeping the tier together. Without Snorlax, the tier would obviously look incredibly different as certain are mainly used for the ability to check Snorlax, but Snorlax also has the ability to check powerful special attackers which would tear the tier apart without its presence. Is Snorlax/should Snorlax be used as the sole check for special attackers in GSC? Of course not. Teams that only rely exclusively on Snorlax to check Zapdos/Raikou are awful teams and one thunder crit away from losing. Though I've strayed from Dragapult in mg2, the point still stands. I've used this example so many times in the council chat when talking about pult that I'm sure "snorlax" has more mentions as my dragapult comparison than it actually does for its viability/usage in mg2.

Without Dragapult in the tier, I think certain Pokemon would become much more difficult to deal with regularly. Iron Bundle is the first one that comes to mind just because Dragapult is one of the few Pokemon that can outspeed it in the tier, and it already has few checks as it is (Iron Bundle is also on the council watchlist so this point might become irrelevant in the coming weeks/months). Earlier I mentioned how wisp pult is regularly used as a semi-check for terrakion on more offensive teams. Without pult in the tier, there becomes dramatically less options for reliably checking +2 terrakion.

I always disagreed with the Snorlax comparison: frankly the two mons that are mentioned the most when talking about a pult ban, being Terrakion and Iron Bundle might already be problems on their own regardless of if pult is around or not, and keeping pult around just for them is basically a broken-checks-broken argument, which I don't think is a good philosophy if we want to make the tier better. On top of that, GSC and MG2 are extremely different tiers, and arguing to keep Pult on the basis of a comparison with GSC is just not a good argument, especially since even though both tiers share the same mechanics, they don't have the same dynamics at all. If we could, why couldn't we compare Dragapult with Genesect, a mon that could keep absolutely anything in check with its scarf set thanks to its typing and coverage in gen5+ OU metagames?

For now I still want to wait to see how the tournament will go, and keep an eye on the metagame - I don't think doing anything especially since we get DLC additions today.

The common argument for banning Dragapult outside of the fact that it is incredibly threatening and difficult to deal with is that by banning it, team diversity would increase. This is also the argument regularly used for Iron Bundle. I certainly think this is a valid point. Teams would be less pressed to bring Fini/Heatran on every balance team, but I would say that the opposite could also be considered. I keep coming back to the terrak point but I do think it is a valid point (I also hate terrak). Teams as of now can afford to be terrak weak BECAUSE they have Dragapult. Because you can throw Dragapult on as the 6th mon on nearly every team, it allows you to be more flexible with the other 5 slots on your team. With Dragapult banned, I'm now essentially shepherded into bringing more dedicated terrak checks, and now I need to bring reliable ways to break through Mew and Latias, and now you're having to deal with the mass role compression that Dragapult was able to absorb. Sure, new Pokemon might gain viability and usage in the tier which I don't think anyone would say is a bad thing, but I think by banning Dragapult it forces council to certainly ban bundle and most likely several other things down the road.

As I said before, if Terrak is a problem just ban it. Pult on its own honestly shouldn't be your sole a terrak cplay anyway, imo. It doesn't do that well vs Mew/Latias either as pult can't KO them right away, even though it can help annoy them.

In terms of building, I think it makes building insanely repetitive, like a good balance is pretty much almost always pult + slots that have to include rocks, two pult checks, a fire, and ferro or kyurem (bundle), and imo as we continue to explore the metagame I think the similarities of structures will become clearer and clearer. Again, I still think it is too soon to take any tiering actions on anything, and I'm just making a prediction that might end up being wrong anyway, but at least I think we can all agree that right now all we have to do is to wait and observe how things will unfold.

 

[Leeto64]

I hope my brief, mostly new player opinions are worth something to this, i found this topic interesting - specially regarding the past gen OU staples comparisons as i've been seeing many opinions on GSC Lax and ADV Tar - while also agreeing with most of what R8 said which i think is a realistic case of these other 2 mons not shredding the tier apart just because of Pult, but only to some degree. I feel Pult is shaky at best at holding Terrak back but i can't tell if my struggles with it are justified by that or simple "skill issue".

Anyways, this part kinda bothered me

There is no doubt that Snorlax is "overpowered," or "broken" but it provides in instrumental role in keeping the tier together. Without Snorlax, the tier would obviously look incredibly different as certain are mainly used for the ability to check Snorlax, but Snorlax also has the ability to check powerful special attackers which would tear the tier apart without its presence.

I think your Lax comparison is flimsy like a few others might've said because you are comparing their usage rate or supposed "purpose" in the tier without accounting how or what they perform in the games to get such a presence. GSC Lax is not strong simply because it's Curse set it's good, it's good because it can do many things that are good, but 4 moveslot syndrome can exist, Lax can compress roles at the cost of weakening it's utility, standard CurseLax with RestTalk lacks team support and is mostly either a wincon or a bulky attacker that can at least help get through the myriad special attackers which are powerful for GSC, not JUST Zapdos or Raikou but multiple others that could dominate the game, while also probably being held back to some degree with phasing; give it Lovely Kiss and it can now be a setup sweeper that can sleep a key threat but now it definitely cant fit RestTalk and is prone to getting worn down, or it can forgo Curse and go all-out attacker but then it's power is not as huge as you'd hope it to be.

What i mean to say is that GSCLax is not banned because it's not an "easy" mon that literally anyone can use and compressess almost every single possible form of value into a single teamslot, GSCLax is EITHER a setup sweeper, a phaser, a resttalk wincon, a lure, an all-out mixed attacker, or what mind you, but it can't do all of these at once (at best 2 of them mostly) and trying to go against this WILL make your Lax worse, wherein in 4 moveslots MG2 Pult is simultaneously one of the best possible picks for the roles of revenge killer, status spreader (imagine if this thing got other status that aren't Burn), pivot, and spinblocker in the entire game. I don't see why NOT think of this guy first if your team needs a spinblocker which i think most teams can make good use of, same if you need a revenge killer, heck, i think this singular standard Pult set alone is one of the best possible picks you can have for any type of team archetype, i almost feel like a moron for not thinking this guy can work in Stall. When you work with GSCLax its more "I need to have this mon, but the set i pick for it opens holes that the rest of my team will fulfill", GSCLax might not work well in stall if it's using the wrong set, or at least, it might force changes to the team structure and composition where i don't think you ever need to change anything on your team if you slap Pult on it, it's like a super glue that can do everything you need in a single teamslot as said wherein GSCLax and it's team must be working together lest it'll just be handicapping itself.

tl;dr faulty comparison, MG2 Pult is the inverse of GSCLax, not diverse, not creative, not a pokémon that half of the meta can find ways to counterplay, and probably, not balanced or healthy for the game either

And about ADV Tar comparison, i don't think it's necessarily wrong but ADV Tar is like a thousand times easier to counter than MG2 Pult, everything in ADV gets Focus Punch and it can hit hard, otherwise Brick Break is a strong pick on the mons that can get it and easily threaten Tar (ADV Mence my beloved), we don't have anything that instantly threatens a clean 2HKO on MG2Pult that isn't threatened back with a guaranteed 2HKO by Pult itself that isn't named Tapu Fini which is otherwise a limited pick as fair as I can tell. It's also not JUST Tar that demands Rock resists in that tier, and even a rock neutrality can probably do good enough, i'll need to study the physical Tar x Skarm matchup to clarify this but it's something i've been thinking now

I hope i could add something useful to this discussion!

 

[Noglastica]

Ok to keep this visually short even though my response might be a bit long, I'm going to put them in spoilers. Thank you to everyone for responding with your own opinions/entering a conversation with my own thoughts. This is how the tier gets better.

Anique

As expected anique did not read most of my post and also responded with 1-2 word responses so I am only going to be addressing the interesting point anique made.

Pult is broken but I think air balloon is the reason why it’s broken, It makes most spinners unviable or ass not to mention it’s a semi pivot to almost anything with it not worrying about hazards except rocks

I disagree with this. I know you didn't read my post so I'll put it again here: Pult can just as easily run boots. It might be marginally worse, but I don't really think balloon is the tipping point for what makes Pult "broken." It does not really make spinners ass. Again, this is in my post, but Dragapult can be beaten by the current big 3 spinners. Treads has knock and completely walls non-fire blast sets, so even if you're running rest and not knock, you can literally sit in on pult forever and win by having it come in on stealth rocks nine times before dying so you can spin. Obviously thats not that very realistic because why wouldn't you run knock anyway, but it can still be done. Not to mention that if you want to use Iron Head or something over Knock, you very much can still do that.

252 Atk Iron Treads Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Dragapult: 112-133 (29.4 - 35%) -- 14.8% chance to 3HKO

With rocks up, it really cannot spinblock you, and once again, if it is not fire blast, it doesn't matter if you're doing 30 or 3 because you still win.

Tusk is not as good in my opinion but discourages pult from spinblocking anyway with play rough (which is again, not mandated, because it can also use knock sets).

Starmie also wins long term trying to spin vs pult. Pult cannot be hit by thunder wave or it loses all of its value, and you can break through it with scald + rocks, not to mention burn chance is something pult cannot regularly risk. Like Tusk, you can even run coverage for pult like Ice Beam to break through faster if hazards are that much of a concern for you.

Spinning is somewhat like ADV where the one main spinblocker is Gengar and, although it doesn't have recovery, is still the most commonly used spinblocker because it can pressure out the two main spinners of Claydol and Starmie, despite the fact that many Claydol run psychic + spdf evs, and bulky spin starmies run HP + speed + spdf. Gengar even has "air balloon" with levitate, avoiding spikes, and there are no stealth rocks to chip it down. Yet, spinning is an incredibly important part of many TSS games in ADV despite the fact that gengar has "air balloon" and can pressure out the "relevant spinners."

R8

I would say yes, definitively, unless you run an extremely aggressive team: Will-O-Wisp has no immunities, and considering how easy it can be to get rocks + spikes on the field, Burn can quickly render your check useless if it is not able to shrug it off immediately. Pokemon such as Heatran, Tapu Fini or Melmetal are themselves usually immediately forced to click Rest as soon as they switch into the move.

This is in response to my question of "is rest mandatory on a Dragapult check?" I still don't know the answer myself. I will say that, right now in the metagame, basically every Dragapult check IS using rest or rest talk. That being said, just a month ago, Heatran was the most widely used Dragapult check and it did so without running rest. I still think that Heatran IS capable of checking Dragapult over the course of a long game without the use of rest. In fact, it was only the increased usage of fire blast pult which breaks through Heatran faster that spurred on the usage of rest heatran, NOT the use of wisp pult. However, in the case of other pult checks like Tapu Fini, yes I think stalk is necessary, especially because most Pokemon do not take pult stabs as well as Heatran and need to recover without being taken advantage of i.e. fini without sleep talk and just rest would be bad.

I always disagreed with the Snorlax comparison: frankly the two mons that are mentioned the most when talking about a pult ban, being Terrakion and Iron Bundle might already be problems on their own regardless of if pult is around or not, and keeping pult around just for them is basically a broken-checks-broken argument, which I don't think is a good philosophy if we want to make the tier better. On top of that, GSC and MG2 are extremely different tiers, and arguing to keep Pult on the basis of a comparison with GSC is just not a good argument, especially since even though both tiers share the same mechanics, they don't have the same dynamics at all. If we could, why couldn't we compare Dragapult with Genesect, a mon that could keep absolutely anything in check with its scarf set thanks to its typing and coverage in gen5+ OU metagames?

For now I still want to wait to see how the tournament will go, and keep an eye on the metagame - I don't think doing anything especially since we get DLC additions today.

I know you disagree with the lax comparison. I also read Leeto's comments on it and I think this conversation is getting too hung up on my comparison of Lax to Pult more than anything else. I said myself that they're very different metagames and that my comparison itself wasn't the best:

I keep using the Snorlax in GSC example, but I think perhaps a better comparison is Tyranitar in ADV.

I'll keep my response on the lax/pult comparison short in this because that is mainly what Leeto's is about so I'll cover it more in depth in that one. However, you do raise some good points in your response.

I always disagreed with the Snorlax comparison: frankly the two mons that are mentioned the most when talking about a pult ban, being Terrakion and Iron Bundle might already be problems on their own regardless of if pult is around or not, and keeping pult around just for them is basically a broken-checks-broken argument, which I don't think is a good philosophy if we want to make the tier better.

Of course the "broken checks broken" argument is awful, that is why BWOU sucks. That being said, I don't think Terrakion is broken at all. With pult on 50% of teams, it is heavily limited in the amount of damage/progress that it can do. Look at qsns: they bring teams that can be very susceptible to terrak, but also have a pult on them as the main check. You go terrak— they go pult (I cannot believe I'm using an em dash on smogon.com), and now terrak is very much checked. There is also plenty of other good Pokemon that are capable of checking Terrakion more reliably than Dragapult does, so I would say it is far from broken. Is it strong? Of course. But I wouldn't say it is broken.

I think that the discussion shifts to Iron Bundle. Bundle is really strong and probably "broken." I'm not saying "if we keep Dragapult we should keep Bundle." That being said, keeping Dragapult absolutely gives us a stronger reason to keep bundle: just like terrak. I think bundle is on another level from terrak and is certainly the Pokemon that I am leaning more towards a ban than anything else in the tier (with Dragapult at #2). However, the fact remains that Dragapult does serve as a viable revenge option to Iron Bundle and with Dragapult present in the tier, it DOES restrict the impact that Iron Bundle has on the tier.

If we could, why couldn't we compare Dragapult with Genesect, a mon that could keep absolutely anything in check with its scarf set thanks to its typing and coverage in gen5+ OU metagames?

You can, I'm not stopping you. I use Gen 3 comparisons because I think they fit and that is the tier I know best outside of mg2. That being said, I think using BW tiering for any example is pretty bad. Fuck you BW.

As I said before, if Terrak is a problem just ban it. Pult on its own honestly shouldn't be your sole a terrak cplay anyway, imo. It doesn't do that well vs Mew/Latias either as pult can't KO them right away, even though it can help annoy them.

In terms of building, I think it makes building insanely repetitive, like a good balance is pretty much almost always pult + slots that have to include rocks, two pult checks, a fire, and ferro or kyurem (bundle), and imo as we continue to explore the metagame I think the similarities of structures will become clearer and clearer. Again, I still think it is too soon to take any tiering actions on anything, and I'm just making a prediction that might end up being wrong anyway, but at least I think we can all agree that right now all we have to do is to wait and observe how things will unfold.

I addressed the terrak stuff before, but saying pult doesn't do well against mew + lati is crazy :sob:
Very few unboosted things can 2HKO mew in the tier, and the fact that 120atk 80bp STAB is a 56% (roughly) ROLL with leftovers against mew is crazy. Granted, Mew gets chipped/status'd alot over the course of a game, but I would imagine nothing kills Mew more frequently than pult. The same is probably true with Latias who is outsped.

In terms of your points on building, I don't think they're at all repetitive. In r1 of the tour alone, we saw new mons we haven't seen at all before, and no two teams were alike. You talk about the required roles/slots but they don't seem to centralize around pult. Firstly, you say that balance is "pult + slots" and yet you very much do not need to have pult: see 50% usage. Just because it is very good on balance, doesn't mean you don't need to use it. Like in ADV you can make weatherless balance without ttar. It can be good, it can be harder to build, but it can still be good. Not to mention, if every team has designated ttar/pult checks, now you're bringing an extra mon that they are less prepped for. Secondly you say you need two pult checks: I don't ever bring two pult checks. I have brought multiple Pokemon that CAN check pult, but I never designate two slots for checking pult. If you have one reliable pult check. If your team is THAT weak to Dragapult outside of the two checks, then it is not a good team because you clearly have little type diversity and will be susceptible to other stuff. Thirdly, yeah I don't know if you NEED a fire type though I'll always bring one whenever I can, as long as you have SOME way to break through the balloon steels. That being said, even if we ban pult, you still "need" to bring a fire for the balloon steels. I get your point is "look at all the stuff I have to bring checks for" but at the same time its like... you're going to be bringing checks for everything. Ban pult and now we're back to seeing psychic cm spam and everyone has to bring a designated foul play pokemon. Bringing Ferro/Kyurem also has nothing to do with pult and is just about banning bundle. Again, I know its about "look at all the checks I need" but you're not including Terrak in this, melm in this, latias in this, suicune, sneasler, and literally every Pokemon in the tier.

This is also all ignoring the fact that your entire list of "roles" that need to be filled can all be solved by Tran + bundle check

Leeto (goat)

I think your Lax comparison is flimsy like a few others might've said because you are comparing their usage rate or supposed "purpose" in the tier without accounting how or what they perform in the games to get such a presence. GSC Lax is not strong simply because it's Curse set it's good, it's good because it can do many things that are good, but 4 moveslot syndrome can exist, Lax can compress roles at the cost of weakening it's utility, standard CurseLax with RestTalk lacks team support and is mostly either a wincon or a bulky attacker that can at least help get through the myriad special attackers which are powerful for GSC, not JUST Zapdos or Raikou but multiple others that could dominate the game, while also probably being held back to some degree with phasing; give it Lovely Kiss and it can now be a setup sweeper that can sleep a key threat but now it definitely cant fit RestTalk and is prone to getting worn down, or it can forgo Curse and go all-out attacker but then it's power is not as huge as you'd hope it to be.

What i mean to say is that GSCLax is not banned because it's not an "easy" mon that literally anyone can use and compressess almost every single possible form of value into a single teamslot, GSCLax is EITHER a setup sweeper, a phaser, a resttalk wincon, a lure, an all-out mixed attacker, or what mind you, but it can't do all of these at once (at best 2 of them mostly) and trying to go against this WILL make your Lax worse, wherein in 4 moveslots MG2 Pult is simultaneously one of the best possible picks for the roles of revenge killer, status spreader (imagine if this thing got other status that aren't Burn), pivot, and spinblocker in the entire game. I don't see why NOT think of this guy first if your team needs a spinblocker which i think most teams can make good use of, same if you need a revenge killer, heck, i think this singular standard Pult set alone is one of the best possible picks you can have for any type of team archetype, i almost feel like a moron for not thinking this guy can work in Stall. When you work with GSCLax its more "I need to have this mon, but the set i pick for it opens holes that the rest of my team will fulfill", GSCLax might not work well in stall if it's using the wrong set, or at least, it might force changes to the team structure and composition where i don't think you ever need to change anything on your team if you slap Pult on it, it's like a super glue that can do everything you need in a single teamslot as said wherein GSCLax and it's team must be working together lest it'll just be handicapping itself.

tl;dr faulty comparison, MG2 Pult is the inverse of GSCLax, not diverse, not creative, not a pokémon that half of the meta can find ways to counterplay, and probably, not balanced or healthy for the game either

Yeah I ain't reading all that - anique impression

Yeah I understand the Lax comparison isn't the best which is why I said that ttar might be a more apt comparison. That being said, I am aware that lax does have other sets to just curselax. Yes it can run nice utility and it is limited by slots/movepool to what it can accomplish on any given team (though let us remember that early GSC, literally every team was curselax and it took years for teams to start using non-curse snorlax. We could see the same renaissance with pult. I also have to ask, what sort of Snorlax set are you using to phaze?).

To me, this is the most interesting/important part of your argument:

wherein in 4 moveslots MG2 Pult is simultaneously one of the best possible picks for the roles of revenge killer, status spreader (imagine if this thing got other status that aren't Burn), pivot, and spinblocker in the entire game. I don't see why NOT think of this guy first if your team needs a spinblocker which i think most teams can make good use of, same if you need a revenge killer, heck, i think this singular standard Pult set alone is one of the best possible picks you can have for any type of team archetype, i almost feel like a moron for not thinking this guy can work in Stall.

I would disagree with this first statement of it being "one of the best possible" for all of those roles. I think it is capable of filling all of those roles, unlike Snorlax, BUT what Snorlax does is it does so at the highest level in the tier. If I have one slot to spread status, I'm picking Mew. If I have one revenge killer, I'm picking bundle. I don't really know how something can be the best "pivot" in a tier, like I don't know what makes Pult a better pivot than Bundle or Moltres other than the fact that the Pokemon itself is better, but it is also certainly not the best spinblocker. I think the element of viewing pult as the best spinblocker is just that teams can use it as a spinblocker. Any stall team that actively wants to prevent spin does not use pult. They use bulky ghosts. Because those are their designated spinblockers and are capable of spinblocking over the course of a long game.

When you work with GSCLax its more "I need to have this mon, but the set i pick for it opens holes that the rest of my team will fulfill", GSCLax might not work well in stall if it's using the wrong set, or at least, it might force changes to the team structure and composition where i don't think you ever need to change anything on your team if you slap Pult on it, it's like a super glue that can do everything you need in a single teamslot as said wherein GSCLax and it's team must be working together lest it'll just be handicapping itself.

I'm not sure how you build in GSC whether its "here's my core, what lax set do I run" or "here's my lax set, how do I build around this" but I agree with your claim that you can just build around pult or add pult on to the end of teams if you've built a solid core of 5. I would push back and say you could do the same for Snorlax though. I understand it is about "what specific Snorlax set do I run" but at the same time, Snorlax to me is so much more oppressive because of what it can do.

I've already said multiple times that my lax and pult comparison wasn't the best for numerous reasons. We're somewhat going down a weird path where we are comparing what roles they fit when at the end of the day they are still both "broken" which is all my claim was really trying to make. To me the difference is that Snorlax fits a few roles depending on its set, BUT I believe it fills those roles better than any other Pokemon. Sure you can argue that Blissey takes more thunders than Snorlax does, but you also know that there's a reason Blissey isn't used anywhere near as much as Snorlax is: because it really only fits on hard stall/very heavy balance. And even then you're more often than not bringing a different Snorlax role anyway.

Dragapult on the other hand you can bring on basically any team you want, although it isn't as great on stall, because it fills multiple roles. If you saw R8's complaint on how many roles that need to be filled when teambuilding, you'd also understand that Dragapult is capable of filling the "offensive" side of that checklist. Yeah it can serve as a pivot, spinblocker, status spreader, this or that, but if you want a designated status spreader, or designated spinblocker, you're going to look elsewhere. If you want a really good non-GSCLax raikou check, you're going to look elsewhere.

I'm including this in the spoiler because you mentioned it in your post and it's not really relevant to what I'm putting below but you hoped you could add something useful to the discussion and you absolutely did. Thank you.

This part I'll be including outside of the spoilers because I think it is the most relevant discussion to what I said above. Lots of the previous stuff was important or just talked about the GSC lax comparison which I have previously said is not the best example.

And about ADV Tar comparison, i don't think it's necessarily wrong but ADV Tar is like a thousand times easier to counter than MG2 Pult, everything in ADV gets Focus Punch and it can hit hard, otherwise Brick Break is a strong pick on the mons that can get it and easily threaten Tar (ADV Mence my beloved), we don't have anything that instantly threatens a clean 2HKO on MG2Pult that isn't threatened back with a guaranteed 2HKO by Pult itself that isn't named Tapu Fini which is otherwise a limited pick as fair as I can tell. It's also not JUST Tar that demands Rock resists in that tier, and even a rock neutrality can probably do good enough, i'll need to study the physical Tar x Skarm matchup to clarify this but it's something i've been thinking now

As for the ADV ttar, that is the comparison I do think is a genuine comparison. But I ask you to reread what you're saying about how ADV Tar is easier to counter than pult. Saying "everything gets Focus Punch" isn't really a great example for how easy it is to counter ttar. There are only a few actual Pokemon that use focus punch, and they don't exactly use them that much anyway. Not to mention the fact that you can probably guess that breloom is going to be clicking a fighting move. Saying Brick Break is a strong pick on certain mons to check ttar is valid, but think about why they're running brick break! Mixmence bb does not even 2hko bold bliss, it's running it specifically for ttar! In fact, it doesn't even OHKO fast dd ttar from full! Right? Like even your mixmence example loses to ddttar from full on a switch in.

Sure it's harder to tech stuff for Pult which doesn't have a 4x weakness, but in my opinion nobody is really trying to! How many times have we seen people trying to bring pursuit Pokemon, or throwing volt switch on Treads to gain momentum against pult, or teching random ice beams or shadow balls to hit Dragapult? Very few, if any are actively trying to counterbuild against Dragapult. Look at r8's comment: they're designating 2 slots for checking dragapult! Instead, you could designate a single slot for dragapult (which, by the way, is definitely enough but for the sake of argument I'll say it's not) and sacrifice 1-2 moveslots on other Pokemon to help lift the load. That's what plenty of teams do in ADV. You think that teams designate out their rock resist to be the only thing that hits tyranitar super effectively? Going back to the faulty GSC Lax example, the same thing is true. Teams need to be prepared for every kind of opposing lax set, and they do so across multiple Pokemon and multiple moveslots.

This post is not about what kind of different Pokemon in a different generation mg2 Dragapult is most like.
I feel like that is kind of what this has turned into. This post was supposed to be about why dragapult is good, how dragapult is good, what it can and can't do, and my personal thoughts on the question of whether or not it should be banned. I used both the lax and ttar example to navigate both my thoughts and other people's thoughts that I've heard about the issue. All three Pokemon are (currently) legal in their tier, and are some of the most centralizing Pokemon in any OU tier. I mean, look at RBY. RBY OU has 3 mandatory Pokemon, RBY Ubers has 4 mandatory Pokemon, and yet teams and sets remain diverse and innovative. How is it that a tier that has existed for 25 years is regularly seeing new waves of innovation whether it be Pokemon or specific sets or team cores. Why are we so afraid to innovate and try new things because of the big bad dragapult? I'm pushing back on the idea that teams are "too restricted" to do anything new when we have 10x the number of Pokemon as RBY. I understand that if something is unhealthy for the metagame, then it needs to be removed. However, I don't think anyone has really tried to innovate something, or go outside of the status quo. I am personally happy with where the metagame is as of right now. Obviously it could be better and more enjoyable. To me, the most fun metagame was the end of gen8, when dragapult was still very much legal. I know that the other council members do not support banning dragapult now, but I do ask that every try something new. The point of the ongoing tour is to explore new things.

 

[anique]

This post is not about what kind of different Pokemon in a different generation mg2 Dragapult is most like.

Mg2 pult is like scream tail in mg1 or vullaby in ndlc Or thundurus in mg1 uu