CAP 3 CAP 3 - Part 6.5 (BST Spillover)

[CardsOfTheHeart]

I'd go 536-545. You know the spread:

Anyway, I want to see if you agree with the reasoning of my spread:

100/75/79/115/94/82

Defensively, I gave it roughly the physical defenses of Milotic and the special defenses of Noctowl. 100 HP for the obvious ability to make 101 Subs.
...
Then again, maybe 80/89/104 would be better defensively. Perhaps I'm too attached to the 101 Subs.

Offensively, I didn't believe that a burning plant could physically harm much of anything, but I still gave it a "usable" Attack in case we decided to give it Swords Dance later on. The 115 Special Attack puts it as strong as Raikou and Lucario, which is fine with me.

I expect a plant on fire to be a little "rushed," so to speak, thus it should have some speed. I wanted this thing to outrun Gyarados, as well. 82 Speed trumps Gyarados--and Milotic, too.

I've been thinking, though. Which would you rather see:

100/75/79/115/94/82

80/75/89/115/104/82

or my newest idea:

90/75/89/115/94/82

?

 

[Lord Gloom]

At the moment, I'm thinking we should give this guy some massive HP so all the rest of his stats stay low but balanced. I know nobody will go for it, but I'm personally not liking how most of these spreads are both very bulky and breaking 110 SpA.

 

[Dane]

I know nobody will go for it, but I'm personally not liking how most of these spreads are both very bulky and breaking 110 SpA.

Mine didn't even break 100 SpAtk for this very reason.

 

[Lord Gloom]

Mine didn't even break 100 SpAtk for this very reason.

I'm not going to lie, it's not bad, but it isn't excellent.

Seeing as how we've pretty much confirmed 536-545 (ugh), I'll get to work on mine.

 

[Aldaron]

Like I said, so long as the overall power of the stat spreads is kept to a reasonable amount, simply by comparison we can be assured that our Pokemon will not end up broken.

I gave 5 examples of Pokemon in the "very good" tier that utilize both STABS effectively, Lord Gloom, and the highest was Togekiss at 537. Togekiss, Infernape, Kingdra, Mamoswine and Flygon are have diverse move pools and pretty cool typings (Togekiss being the exception here, obviously), and all are absolutely not "gamebreaking" or "excessively uber" or anything.

Fishin and I have both given spreads that keep the overall power to 528, below Togekiss and Infernape, and we did this while remaining consistent to what the community wanted.

Lower overall stat efficiency than Togekiss / Infernape + less of an offensive move pool than both and with arguably equivalent STABS (Infernape) means it shouldn't be too broken, even with its support options.

EDIT: Honestly LordGloom, I don't know how helpful you expect statements like "it's not bad but it's not excellent" to be when I haven't seen you provide any objective reasoning (i.e. stat analysis results) against any spreads or for any spreads.

 

[CardsOfTheHeart]

Ah, then how about:

90/75/94/105/99/82

EDIT: Ack! That might be too mediocre.

 

[Aldaron]

Can we try and get some reasoning behind these spreads?

Look at the spreads submitted by myself, Fishin, and Dane. All of these spreads have specific reasonings behind them and are supported with actual numerical evidence.

Also, CardsoftheHeart:

100/75/79/115/94/82

Defensively, I gave it roughly the physical defenses of Milotic and the special defenses of Noctowl. 100 HP for the obvious ability to make 101 Subs.
...
Then again, maybe 80/89/104 would be better defensively. Perhaps I'm too attached to the 101 Subs.

the 100 HP / 79 Def / 94 SpD spread is more defensive than the 80 HP / 89 Def / 104 SpD spread.

Just looking at overall mixed walling (the purpose of this Pokemon), generic mixed spreads will yield advantages for the first spread due to higher HP. I've provided the math in a previous post, but I can do it again here if you wish.

 

[CardsOfTheHeart]

Let me clarify: there seemed to be a general disdain for 100 HP so I thought 80/89/104 would be a more attractive/acceptable-looking spread.

Can we try and get some reasoning behind these spreads?

Look at the spreads submitted by myself, Fishin, and Dane. All of these spreads have specific reasonings behind them and are supported with actual numerical evidence.

I hope that wasn't in direct response to my post because I gave my reasons. I came up with the original spread by asking myself
1. how well the Pokemon should take hits relative to existing Pokemon
2. how powerful the Pokemon's attacks should be relative to existing Pokemon
3. how fast the Pokemon should be relative to existing Pokemon

That's my criteria.

 

[Lord Gloom]

Like I said, so long as the overall power of the stat spreads is kept to a reasonable amount, simply by comparison we can be assured that our Pokemon will not end up broken.

I gave 5 examples of Pokemon in the "very good" tier that utilize both STABS effectively, Lord Gloom, and the highest was Togekiss at 537. Togekiss, Infernape, Kingdra, Mamoswine and Flygon are have diverse move pools and pretty cool typings (Togekiss being the exception here, obviously), and all are absolutely not "gamebreaking" or "excessively uber" or anything.

Fishin and I have both given spreads that keep the overall power to 528, below Togekiss and Infernape, and we did this while remaining consistent to what the community wanted.

Lower overall stat efficiency than Togekiss / Infernape + less of an offensive move pool than both and with arguably equivalent STABS (Infernape) means it shouldn't be too broken, even with its support options.

EDIT: Honestly LordGloom, I don't know how helpful you expect statements like "it's not bad but it's not excellent" to be when I haven't seen you provide any objective reasoning (i.e. stat analysis results) against any spreads or for any spreads.

Well, not to point out the obvious, but stat efficiency is just that - the efficiency of the stats. There are a lot of different factors, most of which can still be swayed or influenced at this point in time, and I'm just attempting to be precautious. We need to make his stats solid enough so that he can be bulky, since that seems like what everyone generally wants, without him becoming too menacing in one aspect or another.

Also, that was just my personal viewpoint on this. I don't have any stat analysis because, frankly, I'm still working on my spread and still checking all my stats and calcs. Don't worry, I'll post it in due time if you really wish to see it.

 

[Captain]

I actually like the idea of 100 HP, CardsOfTheHeart.

 

[Aki]

I'm thinking to probably agree with Karrot. Most bulky sweepers don't have any Stat Up moves. Ryo wasn't helping by giving a Fire/Grass Pokemon Calm Mind. It isn't even mythical or anything of that sort. If anything i think Growth is probably the only option of a stat upping move.

Revenankh ;) But yea, if this thing's gonna be bulky then for fucks sakr no stat up moves that are +2.

Here is my thoughts of the base stats i feel this Pokemon should recieve. I will also add a little bit of extra things such as, signature moves and also abilites that may work.

HP-100
404 HP seems to fit this sort of tankish Pokemon perfectly. Can create 101 subs to go along with Leech Seeding. Also lets him tank generally well while probably trying to gain back HP from Stealth Rock Damage.
Attack-65
Base Stat of 65, which I think this Base Stat is pretty reasonable for this style of Pokemon. I also got that number from the Pokemon called Gardevoir. The only physical attack it probably may use is Head Smash or Flare Blitz. Let's not forget that we chose this thing to be mainly special attacking.
Speed-78
This speed is very appropriate in my eyes for it isn't very fast, and also requires little EV investment to out speed certain threats so it may Sub first or Leech Seed first.
Defense-94
Solid Number for tanking, very solid number. Allows him to take nuetral hits very well, just ask Swampert. Probably can take Waterfall from Bulky Gyarados and other things with a simular ev spread to Swampert.
Special Defense- 94
Just as the much as the Defense. Probably can serve as a decent Heatran switch in or Jolteon counter. Can still survive Surf's from Starmie dependent on the EV spread.
Special Attack- 104
Now for the Special Attack i got this number from Infernape whose Special Attack always seemed so balanced and not broken. So i figured this could fit this Pokemon as well, and not leave it's STAB Special Attack moves in the atic some where and make them worth using.

Total Stat- 535

So with these sort of stats here are the abilities i have thought of that may fit the Pokemon. Here is the Pokemon image i am basing these things off.

Posted stuff VV

~ Rock Head- With this Rock Type Body, wooden cannons on his arms and a wooden helmet on his head, it seems it may fit. Also will go well with Flare Blitz and Head Smash and possibly Power Whip, but Power Whip doesn't seem to fit this image. I think Rock Head is by far the best ability this guy can use. I also have moves in place that benefits from it.

WOOD HAMMER FTW.

~ Battle Armor- His whole body is basically filled with armor, it seems appropiate.

Better traits for the appearence IMO.

~ Drought- As much as this is a Uber ability, this guy looks so much like a Sun God of some sort.

It is uber, and should stay uber, like Drizzle.

~ Flash Fire- With fire burning around his wooden cannons it seems Flash Fire is fits this oh so nicely. Lets be real, wood on fire and not burning? Flash Fire seems it fits this nicely

Yup.

Signature moves i feel this guy should have
Head Smash
Flare Blitz
Leaf Blade
+Wood hammer

No head smash...I think that's Rampardos only?

I created this 2 movesets from the moveset pool i made for this Pokemon myself.
Moveset #1
Head Smash / Growth
Flamethrower
Energy Ball
Hidden Power [ Ice ]
~The idea behind this moveset is to sweep late game maybe after being passed an Agility or some sort of speed booster. Head Smash is mainly there for Gyarados, Zapdos and Togekiss, and also the infamous Charizard and Moltres. HP Ice is there for Dragons, while Flamethrower and Energy Ball is the for STAB

Moveset #2
Leech Seed
Substitute
Flare Blitz
Energy Ball / Protect
~Basic sub seeder. Flare Blitz is over Flamethrower so that you can crush Blissey, and not take recoil. ( Rock Head ) Energy Ball is so Rapid Spin Starmie doesn't beat you. Or you can use protect to recover more and also to scout from choice item Pokes.

So that is my base stat review and a little extra

This thing dosen't like recoil.

Review of BS: 100/65/94/104/94/78

100 hp: I'd say that's the bare minimum needed, for bliss and such. Who cares about low HP, even if it recovers 50% a turn, if everything OHKO's =S

65 Atk: You're not really gonna be sweeping with this, are ya? =p
Either way you've loaded it with physical moves, and it's a special poke. We'll end up with Entei all over again -_-

94 Defence/SpD: Needs a bit more IMO, just to take hits.

104 SpA: Nice.

78 Speed: Thing is, you can either make it speedy or make it bulky. You can't do both without sacrificing an attacking stat- And attack's 65 already. Therefore, take a few points out of speed and put them into Defence.


After this i'm suggesting the new spread:

110/45/120/115/100/55

Will post reasoning later.

 

[Aldaron]

Holy crap Aki, lol, that is certainly broken in my opinion, lol.

If you go for a mixed set of 252 HP / 16 Def / 200 SpD Bold, you get

424 HP / 308 Def / 296 SpD, with 266 SpA to hit with Fire blast and Grass Knot :X

You definitely have to balance it out a bit there, man.

 

[extra]

sometthing about a pokemon with no defensive stats under 100 and a base 115 SAtk with an awesome dual STAB attacking combo makes me think that that spread would be a little broken. even if you only give it growth it could still probably use that considering you want to fucking overload it with defense capabilities.

edit: aldaron fat

 

[Lil Ant]

Revenankh ;) But yea, if this thing's gonna be bulky then for fucks sakr no stat up moves that are +2.



This thing dosen't like recoil.

Review of BS: 100/65/94/104/94/78

100 hp: I'd say that's the bare minimum needed, for bliss and such. Who cares about low HP, even if it recovers 50% a turn, if everything OHKO's =S

65 Atk: You're not really gonna be sweeping with this, are ya? =p
Either way you've loaded it with physical moves, and it's a special poke. We'll end up with Entei all over again -_-

94 Defence/SpD: Needs a bit more IMO, just to take hits.

104 SpA: Nice.

78 Speed: Thing is, you can either make it speedy or make it bulky. You can't do both without sacrificing an attacking stat- And attack's 65 already. Therefore, take a few points out of speed and put them into Defence.


After this i'm suggesting the new spread:

110/45/120/115/100/55

Will post reasoning later.

No Aki, just no. = /

 

[Pride]

45 Atk and 55 Spe is much too low, placing those extra Base Stats in other areas really makes it feel unbalanced. Even though 65 Atk is still rather low, it could make some use using Focus Punch on Blissey, as Gengar use too (If given the move of course). Personally, I would rather have the Atk closer to 80 so it could make use of a possible Flare Blitz or Wood Hammer. I would rather the new Pokemon be heavier in SpDef rather then Def since its weaknesses are almost no existent in that area, while Stone Egde is fairly common. Something like 95 HP / 75 Atk / 90 Def / 105 SpA / 100 SpDef / 80 Spe seems a little more appealing since its not really overpowered, but somewhat balanced and with some help with its move pool, could be dangerous.

 

[Helios]

After this i'm suggesting the new spread:

110/45/120/115/100/55

Will post reasoning later.

Nicely twinked Aki, why not just eliminate his attack stat all together and add the remainder to his special attack?

Just a thought, but why don't we do something like regigigas/slaking, and make the ability screw the user over, and give him some really good stats? (obviously not to the extent of those two)

 

[oinkmooblah]

536-545
No evolutions make it seem as if it should be on par with Snorlax like pokes...

 

[Erik]

I for see this 536-545 being the most beneficial to the metagame in terms of "fairness".

I would personally want to give it more SpD then Aldaron's design and sap it's speed and attack. I see this thing being a tank to some degree and a bit more spd would help.

 

[Hyra]

time to PM my spread to Gothic Togekiss.

I'm not posting it here. It turns out me and Aldaron made very similar spreads when seeing each other's, so I'm avoiding that.

and, when voting comes around, I'm obviously voting for mine (because I will not be here for most of the voting period).

 

[Jonathan]

So far I really like Aldaron's, Mekkah's, and futresuperstar's BST distributions the most. People, remember this thing doesn't have the terrible typing Fire types usually do. We need a somewhat lowish special defense in my opinion to actually take this guy down.

On another note, just because this is a Grass type doesn't mean it automatically gets Leech Seed. I hope this isn't being taken as a given, and that we'll be able to vote on this.

And did anyone else notice that 3/3 Pokemon we created are weak to Flying :/

 

[futuresuperstar]

I made that observation during Part 4 of CAP #3, I think. It's really weird o,O

 

[Hyra]

okay, spread submitted.

I can guarantee I will have the lowest SAtk, unless someone feels like dropping Atk below 60 and making something with Cresselia level defense.

 

[Karrot]

We're trying to popularize the flying type! Heh.

In my opinion, Leech Seed is something we don't want to leave out for this Pokemon. That would be just limiting it too much, as there has been a lot done already to keep this from becoming the next Garchomp. Leech Seed seems perfect for this Pokemon, I think it should stay!

If you're really worried about this getting too powerful, don't worry. We have a lot of people who know what they're doing this time around and are trying their best to balance this thing out.

 

[Lil Ant]

Look at the spreads submitted by myself, Fishin, and Dane. All of these spreads have specific reasonings behind them and are supported with actual numerical evidence.

No offense to your friends new BST method, but just because he created it doesn't mean his system is correct.

 

[Gothic Togekiss]

It has been discussed that this Pokemon should be forced to compete with Tyranitar (hence Aldaron's spread), along with Gyarados and Togekiss, to keep its balance in the DP metagame. After all, we are listening to Lord Gloom's cry, are we not?

Not sure about Dos and Togekiss, but I do like a rivalry between T-tar and this pokemon, unless the winning pokemon look fast(again, not putting all my hope into one creation) then...erh, new plan of action.

BTW~ HOLY FUCK D<, I couldn't get on this damn thing for like hours.