Imagine forgetting that hail exists because its basically useless without arctozolt, heavy duty boots, and permanent weather. I do agree that manaphy and many dragons are gonna bet banned, not sure if blaziken is broken, but I definitely could see it getting banned. Also don't really see how zone is a problem in SS, but than again I don't really use metal birds or ferrothorn.
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
Resource BDSP OU Metagame Discussion Thread
- Thread starter Eve
- Start date
Meant to post in this thread not samples whoops. Sharing the Trick Room talks and ideas around.
Not going to go too much into it, but Trick Room should always have a setter if not two than can set up Trick room on SD Garchomp and you'll want ways to deter Weavile with priority users if possible, since the majority of them have a horrendous matchup versus it. Trick room anti-meta against certain offenses but is going to have tougher match ups against a couple of the brokens like Manaphy if you don't position correctly, so not sure how viable TR is going to be long term truthfully.
Not going to go too much into it, but Trick Room should always have a setter if not two than can set up Trick room on SD Garchomp and you'll want ways to deter Weavile with priority users if possible, since the majority of them have a horrendous matchup versus it. Trick room anti-meta against certain offenses but is going to have tougher match ups against a couple of the brokens like Manaphy if you don't position correctly, so not sure how viable TR is going to be long term truthfully.
They are not obtainable in-game at the moment, and are therefore banned from the format. Once they become obtainable I would assume all (except maybe defense?) would be automatically placed in ubers.
Might be generally outclassed at first rolewise, but can turn tables if Magnezone or Raikou become more and more popular. An Electivire can switch into them to get the +1 Speed boost from Motor Drive, OHKO with Earthquake and possibly proceed to dent the opposing team, as it can also OHKO Garchomp with Ice Punch after the Motor Drive boost (unless Scarfed or Yache'd). Might not be that good otherwise, but if Raikou and Magnezone become too much popular, Electivire gets the opportunity to shine and compromise the opposing team.
Despite having its comfortable spot in ZU, PU and/or NU across several generations, it kinda concerns me that in BDSP it now has access to Body Press to abuse its 145 base Defense stat and, to make it more frightening, it synergizes with its Magnet Pull ability. Might not be a big deal for OU but can be a thorn on the side for Steel-types. (additional note: it also works well under Trick Room teams)
mod moment chiming in to say that Deoxys is indeed unreleased. I believe it is currently legal in random battles, but that is ran through an entirely separate process. If/when Deoxys releases it and its forms will be looked at appropriately then, hope that clears up any speculation and would like to ask that that discussion not continue, thanks
seeing lots of good discussion so far, keep it up!
seeing lots of good discussion so far, keep it up!
I hope you're right about electivire, as it just kinda feels like gf forgot about him, even magmortar got in the role compendium as a wallbreaker. His main issue was his bad typing on top of his general lack of offensive power, so it would be nice to see him be useful in ou for once with better physical electric stab.
Might be generally outclassed at first rolewise, but can turn tables if Magnezone or Raikou become more and more popular. An Electivire can switch into them to get the +1 Speed boost from Motor Drive, OHKO with Earthquake and possibly proceed to dent the opposing team, as it can also OHKO Garchomp with Ice Punch after the Motor Drive boost (unless Scarfed or Yache'd). Might not be that good otherwise, but if Raikou and Magnezone become too much popular, Electivire gets the opportunity to shine and compromise the opposing team.
Despite having its comfortable spot in ZU, PU and/or NU across several generations, it kinda concerns me that in BDSP it now has access to Body Press to abuse its 145 base Defense stat and, to make it more frightening, it synergizes with its Magnet Pull ability. Might not be a big deal for OU but can be a thorn on the side for Steel-types. (additional note: it also works well under Trick Room teams)
I don't feel 123 base Attack being a lack of offensive power, although having Wild Charge as the only way to physical STAB quite hurts it a bit. Also, unlike Magmortar, it has the tools to go into mixed sets as well, many Electric pokémon (not named Eelektross) envy such a movepool as Electivire's.
I would like to quickly voice that I do not want to see any of the weather setters banned. Sun, Hail and Sand do not break the meta game and there are ways to play around these weathers especially since they are not permanent. If you want a format with no weather other than sandstorm, that is what Gen IV OU is for. This format would be seriously hurt if a weather ban was placed on everything and it would kill many strategies instantly. Sun is not nearly as spammable as rain was with Drizzle, and even with Drizzle, it could be argued that the culprits were Manaphy and other mons more than rain itself. However, until the meta settles a bit (with the possibility of drizzle being tested again) I feel that we should hold from making any major decisions such as banning weather setters (Snow Warning, Sand Stream and Drought).
I know some people have briefly mentioned it before but I want to say how insanely good Sp Def Scizor is right now being one of only two reliable long term answers to Latios (the other being Clef). I've mainly been running a similar dragons offense team since the drizzle ban and Sp Def Scizor has been a lifesaver, allowing me to beat most of the really strong special attackers running around such as Latios, Starmie, and Alakazam. In addition to that it beats some of the less common but still scary special mons like Gardevoir, Raikou, and non-Fire move Azelf and Clef (which in my experience is most of them). It also swaps into Weavile really nicely even when fully Sp Def, talking at most 38% from Night Slash and eating Icicle Crash up. Finally, it also serves as a nice emergency check to Mamo and Chomp, doing over 50% to Mamo with BP and doing roughly 25% to Chomp.I've been running this set
@ LeftoversAbility: Technician
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
IVs: 30 Spe
- U-turn
- Bullet Punch
- Defog
- Roost
Max HP and Sp Def makes it much easier to play around LO Lati and possible to swap into Specs Lati safely at all while the moves are all pretty standard defensive Scizor moves. The only notable thing about this is the 30 speed ivs, mainly to get slow U-turns off on other Scizor as there aren't any other good mons with 65 base speed (rip Banette and even bigger rip to Komala my beloved).
Specs Lati
252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Scizor: 132-156 (38.3 - 45.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Surf vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Scizor: 123-145 (35.7 - 42.1%) -- 90.6% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Scizor: 61-72 (17.7 - 20.9%) -- possible 7HKO after Leftovers recovery
LO Lati
252 SpA Life Orb Latios Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Scizor: 116-136 (33.7 - 39.5%) -- 20.4% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Latios Surf vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Scizor: 107-126 (31.1 - 36.6%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Latios Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Scizor: 53-62 (15.4 - 18%) -- possible 8HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Scizor: 132-156 (38.3 - 45.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Surf vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Scizor: 123-145 (35.7 - 42.1%) -- 90.6% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Scizor: 61-72 (17.7 - 20.9%) -- possible 7HKO after Leftovers recovery
LO Lati
252 SpA Life Orb Latios Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Scizor: 116-136 (33.7 - 39.5%) -- 20.4% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Latios Surf vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Scizor: 107-126 (31.1 - 36.6%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Latios Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Scizor: 53-62 (15.4 - 18%) -- possible 8HKO after Leftovers recovery
tl:dr Sp Def Scizor beats Latios, Starmie, and Weavile use it lol
I've only played a bit, but while BDSP is fundamentally a completely different game than DP OU (Lack of Pursuit really hurts) it has idk... DP OU's spirit, or at least it will once we get some obvious bans out of the way
Like, Dragon's are obviously overtuned but I miss when they actually had an "oh shit" factor when sent out have rather than being "just another type." Obviously not good for overall balance, but it's definitely fun.
Like, Dragon's are obviously overtuned but I miss when they actually had an "oh shit" factor when sent out have rather than being "just another type." Obviously not good for overall balance, but it's definitely fun.
Manual rain is indeed challenging to pull off but if you can you can do amazing things. Kingdra is truly the king of dragons when rain is up and the Choice Specs variant is a powerhouse that can OHKO almost everything with a single attack. Ludicolo is another invaluable mon as it can basically replicate Manaphy's coverage, AND have STAB on grass attacks AND prop up a substitute just to scout or even have a turn to attack outside of rain. Kabutops and Azumarill offer immediate power, and I give Kabutops Aqua Jet alongside Waterfall just to punish anything cocky enough to try to use Mach Punch. Kabutops and Ludicolo also complement each other's typing well, with Azumarill being the physical choice band set and Kingdra being a special sweeper.
In terms of setters, I took your suggestion for Latias to heart. I use a fast bulky set of Dragon Pulse, Defog, Rain Dance and Roost with damp rock. The one I would like to suggest for others is Prankster Illumise.
Illumise (F) @ Damp Rock
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Rain Dance
- Substitute
- Encore
- U-turn
Probably my favorite backup setter which is especially infuriating to Aerodactyl and tons of other leads, setting up Rain Dance in the prehistoric predator's face and then as it sets up Stealth Rock, U Turn breaks Sash and Kingdra threatens anything that isn't a fairy with Draco Meteor and anything that isn't Gastrodon with Hydro Pump. You can also scout with Illumise's Substitute and then trap with Encore, giving just enough turns to steal momentum.
Rain is definitely harder to pull off without drizzle but it is certainly usable.
I understand. I came to this conclusion, and I am relieved, yet disappointed at what the meta has come to, being either Dragon spam or stall. Something like Deoxys could really shake things up. (Gamefreak, release the event, please.)mod moment chiming in to say that Deoxys is indeed unreleased. I believe it is currently legal in random battles, but that is ran through an entirely separate process. If/when Deoxys releases it and its forms will be looked at appropriately then, hope that clears up any speculation and would like to ask that that discussion not continue, thanks
seeing lots of good discussion so far, keep it up!
I do agree 123 base attack isnt bad, I was referring to electivire's problem of having moves with low base power, specifically stab attacks. In gen 4 his best physical stab attack was thunder punch.
Magmortar has the same attack stat as electivire's spa, so it can run mixed sets.
Indeed, it actually can
So, with all the tools needed, a Belly Drum set for Magmortar should be something like this:
Magmortar @ Sitrus Berry / Figy Berry /Salac Berry
Ability: Vital Spirit
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Belly Drum
- Flare Blitz / Fire Punch
- Thunder Punch / Substitute
- Earthquake
I've also got this idea involving Substitute, although limiting your coverage and risking one turn (as well as having less longevity), it can turn from high risk to high reward when the setup has been successful (except if a thing like Cloyster sets up Shell Smash too and Rock Blasts through your Substitute). Outside Substitute, keep it with Sitrus Berry. For Substitute variants, you can either run Figy Berry or Salac Berry, with the latter being triggered when Substitute and Belly Drum have been successfully set up, but keep in mind: if you're going to the Salac Berry route for a Speed boost you'll have to run Fire Punch due to Flare Blitz's recoil turning the longevity into an one ticktet ride.
Last edited:
Blissey (F) @ Leftovers
Ability: Serene Grace / Natural Cure
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Ice Beam
- Thunderbolt
- Soft-Boiled
I wanted to post a little about our favorite cute and pink blob Blissey which I sadly haven't seen laying its eggs around in the dragon-infested BDSP environment that much. While it certainly lost Teleport and HDB, I still found it to be rather well-suited in the environment because of fewer Knock Off, Pursuit, Psyshock, and Trick users and the fact that Toxic is rather limited and sparse.
As part of my experiments, I found that Seismic Toss sets tend to end in very, very tragic game positions depending on certain matches. For example, Gengar is unyeetable with Seismic Toss and can proceed to Nasty Plot in front of Blissey or worse Substitute to avoid a T-wave or even just Taunt it menacingly. A horrendous position to be in if I must say.
Additionally, Blissey fails to adequately deal with Calm Mind users such as Suicune and can be shaky at best against Nasty Plot and/or Tail Glow users (Hi, Manaphy.)
Gliscor with its Poison Heal alongside other bulkier mons with recovery can also brush Seismic Tosses aside and proceed to pivot, set-up, and do other shenanigans.
While some would regard Blissey as a mon fitting only in Stall-y playstyles, I do think that a few tweaks can give it more of a surprise factor in Balance and Bulky Offense teams among players planning to use it.
In particular, I found the dusty and old CM set used in the past to be a rather effective and amusing experience. To consider, the BoltBeam combination helps against Gengar thinking it may set-up. Additionally, having two special moves does help in case one of your moves gets disabled by Cursed Body. CM also allows you to play Calm Mind wars against a variety of special set-up sweepers (bar a few such as Alakazam with Psyshock.) Finally, Ice Beam is incredible for denting Dragon, Ground, and Grass type mons.
In terms of abilities, Serene Grace is...I'm not really sure what's the right word to say for this. I've actually been using this instead of Natural Cure because of my interest in the 20% freeze rate with Ice Beam (I have found some utility with this and it has helped me gain happiness. Yes, that's right, happiness because freezing Scizors coming in is kind of fun.)
Additionally, I feel that the lack of Toxic sort of made me feel less aversive for not using Natural Cure. There are a few moves that can be used with this. Namely, Shadow Ball, Charge Beam, and Flamethrower so I kind of think it's somewhat worth looking into.
Weaknesses: If you're planning to use Blissey in a team, I suggest you prepare heavily for heavy-blowing attackers such as DD users, Infernape, Staraptor, Lucario, Mamoswine. You'll probably get rekt.
A Few Replays:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8bdspou-1457240333
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8bdspou-1457757546
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8bdspou-1457628634
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8bdspou-1457152404
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8bdspou-1457123843
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8bdspou-1458149655
Anyone wanna talk about how crazy alakazam is? Only relevant mon that outspeeds it is Weavile (Weavile is bad stop using it), and sometimes it just auto wins with a nasty plot up. It also has like zero checks besides sp def scizor. Imo the best cleaner in the entire game right now.
Good question. Only Murkrow and Sableye are the only ones with access to Prankster in BDSP. Although, between the two, it feels like a choice between Murkrow with Thunder Wave and Sableeye with... pretty much everything else (and Knock Off).
wdym stop using weavile? it is able to take care of alakazam, gengar, and dragon spam
I want to bring attention to Vileplume as a Trick Room abuser and an offensive answer to Azumarill, Breloom, Tangrowth and acid armor Gastrodon, all of which annoy the standard Crawdaunt + Rhyperior TR core. Vileplume's typing allows it to switch into these pokemons' STABs and absorb spore, making it an excellent teammate for Crawdaunt and Rhyperior. Strength sap is a busted move that Vileplume can use to heal itself and cripple its' switch-ins such as Scizor. With 32 def EVs Vileplume avoids the OHKO from Azumarill's belly drum and rain boosted aqua jet after stealth rock chip.
Above all else, Pursuit being killed from the game is probably the biggest hindrances the game have. Latios needed a slight tuning back in gen 4 to be perfectly fine and now both the Latis are able to go in scotch free with far less worries about hazards and Sandstorm to the point that even Latias might be too strong. It also just feels very "incomplete" with Pokemon like Jirachi and Zapdos feeling downright neutered and I don't know if even significant changes are able to make this hold a candle to gen 4.
Thank you for taking me back to the early gen 5 days I love you so much.
This core is deadly in the current metagame. Scizor and Latios combine to check most of the offensive threats in the metagame, providing some safety. But most importantly, they force a lot of switches to steel types, allowing Infernape to come in and wreak havoc. Very little in the metagame switches in to mixed Infernape reliably, so it really just clicks buttons on everyone. You can pretty much pair this core with any two offensive mons and a hazard setter, and you've at least got a decent team.
I still run manual rain. This core doesn't do a thing to me, except for Latios.
This core is deadly in the current metagame. Scizor and Latios combine to check most of the offensive threats in the metagame, providing some safety. But most importantly, they force a lot of switches to steel types, allowing Infernape to come in and wreak havoc. Very little in the metagame switches into mixed Infernape reliably, so it just clicks buttons on everyone. You can pretty much pair this core with any two offensive mons and a hazard setter, and you've at least got a decent team.
I can't find the post now, maybe I'm looking in the wrong place but this team (credits to whoever made it, I legitimately cannot find your post I looked at all 6 pages here) has been v good pls ignore my slightly off EVs and battle towere'd items, i just copied this from my save file because it was also a lot of fun using this in game
edit: oh yeah wherever I found this, the victreebel was a heatran but I wanted to not use any leg/myths at least as far as I consider them
edit: oh yeah wherever I found this, the victreebel was a heatran but I wanted to not use any leg/myths at least as far as I consider them
Torkoal (F) @ Heat Rock
EVs: 252 HP / 1 Atk / 252 Def / 4 SpD / 1 Spe
Ability: Drought
Level: 70
Bold Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Lava Plume
- Inferno
- Rapid Spin
Charizard (F) @ Leftovers
IVs: 0 Atk
EVs: 2 Atk / 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Ability: Solar Power
Level: 70
Timid Nature
- Flamethrower
- Solar Beam
- Focus Blast
- Roost
Victreebel (F) @ Poison Barb
EVs: 6 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Ability: Chlorophyll
Level: 70
Shiny: Yes
Timid Nature
- Sleep Powder
- Solar Beam
- Sludge Bomb
- Weather Ball
Tangrowth (F) @ Meadow Plate
EVs: 252 Atk / 6 SpA / 252 Spe
Ability: Chlorophyll
Level: 70
Naive Nature
- Solar Beam
- Earthquake
- Knock Off
- Growth
Rhyperior (M) @ Life Orb
EVs: 252 Atk / 6 SpD / 252 Spe
Ability: Solid Rock
Level: 70
Jolly Nature
- Rock Polish
- Swords Dance
- Stone Edge
- Earthquake
Starmie @ Choice Specs
EVs: 2 Atk / 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Ability: Analytic
Level: 70
Timid Nature
- Recover
- Rapid Spin
- Thunderbolt
- Ice Beam
EVs: 252 HP / 1 Atk / 252 Def / 4 SpD / 1 Spe
Ability: Drought
Level: 70
Bold Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Lava Plume
- Inferno
- Rapid Spin
Charizard (F) @ Leftovers
IVs: 0 Atk
EVs: 2 Atk / 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Ability: Solar Power
Level: 70
Timid Nature
- Flamethrower
- Solar Beam
- Focus Blast
- Roost
Victreebel (F) @ Poison Barb
EVs: 6 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Ability: Chlorophyll
Level: 70
Shiny: Yes
Timid Nature
- Sleep Powder
- Solar Beam
- Sludge Bomb
- Weather Ball
Tangrowth (F) @ Meadow Plate
EVs: 252 Atk / 6 SpA / 252 Spe
Ability: Chlorophyll
Level: 70
Naive Nature
- Solar Beam
- Earthquake
- Knock Off
- Growth
Rhyperior (M) @ Life Orb
EVs: 252 Atk / 6 SpD / 252 Spe
Ability: Solid Rock
Level: 70
Jolly Nature
- Rock Polish
- Swords Dance
- Stone Edge
- Earthquake
Starmie @ Choice Specs
EVs: 2 Atk / 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Ability: Analytic
Level: 70
Timid Nature
- Recover
- Rapid Spin
- Thunderbolt
- Ice Beam