Battle Spot Singles Viability Rankings!

[freekhoorn]

ethan06 I see a lot more defensive answers for clawitzer than only chansey-line. Assault vest azumarril, Florges, sylveon, assaultvest goodra - note that even mega launcher boosted choice specs max invested dragon pulse does not get the 2hko on goodra -

252+ SpA Choice Specs Mega Launcher Clawitzer Dragon Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Goodra: 82-98 (41.6 - 49.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

assaultvest conkeldurr, mega ampharos checks it too. I dont see it being as good as reuniclus, whimsicott and other B- Pokemon. It gets locked into one move wich you can scout for and it gets koed too quickly and is not enough for me for that level. I see it more being in C, but not higher.

 

[ethan06]

ethan06 I see a lot more defensive answers for clawitzer than only chansey-line. Assault vest azumarril, Florges, sylveon, assaultvest goodra - note that even mega launcher boosted choice specs max invested dragon pulse does not get the 2hko on goodra -

252+ SpA Choice Specs Mega Launcher Clawitzer Dragon Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Goodra: 82-98 (41.6 - 49.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

assaultvest conkeldurr, mega ampharos checks it too. I dont see it being as good as reuniclus, whimsicott and other B- Pokemon. It gets locked into one move wich you can scout for and it gets koed too quickly and is not enough for me for that level. I see it more being in C, but not higher.

I agree with you that these are checks, but with the exception of Conk, AV Azu and Sylveon, none of these are commonly seen. None of the Fairies appreciate repeated Sludge Bombs, especially if you get the Poison, and I've never seen a Florges, a Goodra nor a Mega Ampharos in Battle Spot, and I've been playing for a long time... If Clawitzer could bust through everything in the game then I'm sure it'd be a lot higher than B-, but as it is, it can put huge holes in the common defensive behemoths of the format and get OHKOs on some of the offensive ones, similar to how Whimsicott (which is in B btw) can only disrupt certain things, or how Reuniclus is all fun and games until you run into Aegislash or a defensive Psychic.

About scouting and locking - Consider that in Battle Spot Singles, the opponent will only ever have two switch-ins as opposed to five. Even if you don't know what they are yet, it's very easy to check things off the list as they appear. Now while this doesn't really apply to things like Choice Band Mamoswine, which, while powerful, has solid checks to each of its STABs in Pokémon like Heatran, Azumarill and Landorus-T, Clawitzer's coverage is far more neutral, and a Choice Specs Dark Pulse (for instance) is capable of taking huge chunks out of a large portion of the format - Pokémon like Fighting types and Fairy types can easily be caught on the switch-in with a Sludge Bomb or a STAB Scald if you have a picture of the team in front of you. Being KOed too quickly isn't that much of an issue when you've likely taken out one or two of the opponent's Pokémon yourself. It's certainly at least as good as Mega Blastoise, which is currently in B-, if not better - definitely not as bad as Vaporeon and Pidgeot.

e:

252+ SpA Choice Specs Clawitzer Sludge Bomb vs. 228 HP / 12 SpD Assault Vest Azumarill: 126-150 (61.7 - 73.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Clawitzer: 106-126 (59.5 - 70.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Clawitzer outspeeds; not a check

252+ SpA Choice Specs Clawitzer Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Sylveon: 128-152 (63.3 - 75.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Pixilate Sylveon Hyper Voice vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Clawitzer: 162-192 (91 - 107.8%) -- 50% chance to OHKO

it's a roll, but Clawitzer only needs 12 Spe EVs to creep 0 Spe Modest Sylveon, and it can't switch in

252+ SpA Choice Specs Clawitzer Scald vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Conkeldurr: 100-118 (47.1 - 55.6%) -- 75.4% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Guts Conkeldurr Mach Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Clawitzer: 67-79 (37.6 - 44.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

can't switch in, and Guts Mach Punch can't 2HKO. No point in staying in on it though so I'll give you that

252+ SpA Choice Specs Clawitzer Sludge Bomb vs. 244 HP / 44+ SpD Florges: 98-116 (53.2 - 63%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
52 SpA Florges Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Clawitzer: 69-82 (38.7 - 46%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

just took the nugget bridge spread for this, who even runs Florges O.o anyways, Florges can't check, especially if you get the poison. Giga Drain wins if you don't poison but lol Giga Drain Florges

 

[DragonWhale]

Specs Clawitzer has very few switch-ins, but the biggest issues lies in locking itself into a move and poor speed, allowing the opponent to either get a free turn or revenge kill it with relative ease. There are better options that are available for a similar role, like Specs Hydreigon and LO Greninja. I dunno what's the best rank for it though... around B-/C+, but B- looks kinda outdated imo (Starmie is definitely lower, Latias is probably higher)

 

[Misaka Mikoto]

Espeon is pretty decent in the Battle Spot Metagme. I agree with DragonWhale I would say it is somewhere around a C+ rank in my eyes. For now, B- seems to be a little too high for it. Espeon has a nice offensive movepool and can really put a stop to common status-inflicting Pokemon. Also, it can use it as an opportunity to set up on them as well. I do see that one of the main reasons besides its nice offensive movepool, access to recovery and support moves. I do say that I see some interesting sets out of it. I remember encountering one that had the move Wish and utilized it with Reflect, Calm Mind and Baton Pass. Or this other time someone used Stored Power with Calm Mind and Substitute in taking the bulky approach. I see Espeon as a threat because it has a wide movepool it can use to its advantage because it can fulfill different roles in the metagame from Baton Passing to setting up dual screens to being offensive. Espeon is frail coming off at a base 65 / 60 / 95 bulk leaving it frightened to physical attackers. Psychic typing isn't a good type for Espeon as it has to deal with Dark-type moves such as Sucker Punch, Foul Play, Dark Pulse, Snarl, Pursuit, and most importantly, Knock Off. Shadow Ball is also common as well being a Ghost-type move, and maybe Bug Buzz if it runs into enough Volcarona and or Galvantula.

Unranked ==> Rank C+

Espeon has a variety of moves under its arsenal.

Offensive Moves:

• Psychic
• Psyshock
• Stored Power
• Dazzling Gleam
• Shadow Ball
• Hidden Power Fire / Hidden Power Fighting
• Grass Knot
• Signal Beam (I don't know why anybody would run this.)

Recovery Moves:

• Morning Sun

Support Moves:

• Reflect
• Light Screen
• Substitute
• Wish
• Baton Pass
• Yawn

Items:

• Light Clay
• Choice Scarf
• Choice Specs
• Leftovers
• Kee Berry

• Dazzling Gleam: An excellent coverage move that allows for Espeon to hit Dark-, Dragon-, and Fighting-types (even though it is Psychic STAB to deal with them). Now Espeon is able to check another one of its types. So I do say that Dazzling Gleam is pretty much a blessing for it this gen. It can also check Salamence because it won't be getting the Speed boost until next turn, as Espeon outspeeds it.

• Hidden Power Fire: can be used to hit Steel-, Grass-, Bug-, and Ice-types for super effective damage such as Ferrothorn, Scizor, and Mamoswine. Having this move in the slot helps it check some Bug-types. Hidden Power Fighting can be used to also hit Normal-types; however, Hidden Power Fire is a much better option.

• Stored Power: is used in conjunction with Calm Mind for more power. At times I do see it with Substitute, but eh, there's better ways it can also utilize that. I wish that Espeon learned Cosmic Power. That would be so great. The only downside about this move is that I wouldn't get the KOes that I want compared to Psychic or Psyshock.

• Shadow Ball: is good for hitting Pokemon such as Gengar and Gardevoir.

• Psyshock: comes in handy in dealing with specially bulky Pokemon such as Chansey because it targets their Defense instead.

• Grass Knot: works very nice for Rock-, Ground-, and Water-types such as Terrakion, Rhyperior, and Mega Swampert.

• Morning Sun: A nice recovery move for Espeon, providing longevity and a way to continue setting up Calm Mind, dual screens, or attack with one of its moves. It can also work well under Drought from Mega Charizard Y and Ninetails, as it recovers even more HP.

• Dual Screens: Reflect and Light Screen are useful in allowing Espeon to prolong its battle. But this is more useful in providing support for its teammates while it is holding Light Clay. Wish plays are part as well because Espeon is most likely going to get hit by the enemy. What better way to keep your Pokemon healthy at a possible full HP again so you're not pressured to set up? Wish will help recover any loss of damage the teammate received.

• Baton Pass: Espeon can help gain momentum and pivot out of Shadow Tag users such as Mega Gengar, Wobbufett, and Gothettile. In case someone tries to run a surpise move such as Pursuit, it can avoid damage. Also Espeon can use it to pass Calm Minds and or Substitute to its teammate, allowing it to sweep.

• Magic Bounce: The most important ability for Espeon. It can bounce back status moves (except it can't bounce back Trick users so RIP Espeon.) that really annoys your team. Take for example, Thundurus uses Thunder Wave and/or Swagger. Magic Bounce will simply bounce it back. Because paralysis doesn't work on Electric-types, Thundurus will be confused. Breloom is about to Spore Landorus-T. Switch it out and send in Espeon to nullify it. You also have Toxic users such as Porygon2 and Chansey. You can send it in on a switch-in and send the status right back onto them. Ferrothorn's Leech Seed, send it right back onto it (even though it doesn't work on Grass.). Sableye uses Will-O-Wisp. Send it right back onto it, burning it. Not only does Espeon bounce status back, it also bounces entry hazards and phazers as well, giving your team the advantage because it could also break Focus Sash Pokemon that they had pick as one of the three Pokemon against you. Magic Bounce gives Espeon a turn or two to set up on the foe. Whether it is dual screens, Calm Mind, Substitute, etc.

• Light Clay: A very nice item for Espeon to use to prolong the dual screens on the field from 5 to 8 turns in support with its teammates that are sweepers.

• Choice Specs: Would increase Espeon's Special Attack by 1.5x can hit a lot harder with the item, but it would lock it into a move. It can also give it some KOs it wouldn't normally get (which is pretty much a Calm Mind at +1). The same thing happens to Choice Scarf except for the fact that it gives Espeon 1.5x Speed boost, outspeeding Greninja, Mega Salamence, Mega Manectric, Mega Lopunny, and other Choice Scarf Pokemon that are under a base 110.

• There's also Leftovers providing a little bit of passive recovery. This can work with Calm Mind, while having dual screens up. Also the Kee Berry is helpful in strengthening Espeon's Defense after a physical attack, so Reflect has a role in that.

In my opinion, I would rather use Espeon's Magic Bounce for a more offensive type of moveset rather than trying to set up in a more defensive way, so I can get crucial KOes.​

The moveset that I run is:

Hide

- Psychic
- Calm Mind
- Dazzling Gleam
- Morning Sun
item: Leftovers
ability: Magic Bounce
nature: Timid
evs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

- Reflect
- Light Screen
- Calm Mind
- Baton Pass
item: Light Clay
ability: Magic Bounce
nature: Timid
evs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 Spe​

I don't think running any calculations on Espeon was really necessary because it really needs to be at a +1 or +2 to really deal some damage on the opponent's team.

 

[PPB]

I don't see Espeon very often, but the ones I've seen have carried scarf. I guess it makes sense since Espeon learns trick, and with a scarf + magic bounce it can troll stall teams (and double as a revenge killer because of its speed).

Something that I'd also like to see discussion on is Liepard, because if I'm not mistaken, the Prankster Assist Spore strategy (Liepard + Breloom + Ditto) is somewhat popular.

 

[Kye]

I'd like to nominate Garchomp for S.

This may be a very unpopular opinion and I'm a very new smogon user but I figured I give it a try at least. While garchomp isn't mega Kang, it is a metagame-defining pokemon due to its near omnipotence and ridiculously high usage from low to high ratings. It had 30+% usage from 1400-1600 ratings group as well as for 1800+ ratings group. This is mostly due to having "perfect" stat distribution with high utility to run so many top-tier sets. it is ever so easy to fit into teams as many of its sets provide amazing support, sweeping potential, revenge killing potential, or combinations of the three. Almost every team carries around ice beam carrying pokemons with the biggest reasons being garchomp and landorus. Cresselia and Porygon 2 (P2 is dropping though) had one of their main uses as garchomp "counter". People's "over"preparation for garchomp, as well as over preparation for bird spam, has led to salamence-mega to be barely hanging on to be a top-12 pokemon. Garchomp in my honest opinion is the most versatile pokemon with MANY top-tier variants...and that I believe is enough to warrant a spot in S for garchomp. Usage =/= power in general but when a pokemon is used 30+% on all high-rate teams, I believe there's a good reason for that.

Also, Koreans usually refer garchomp to be 사기 or 엠창몬: former referring garchomp as being overpowered and the latter referring to garchomp as a pokemon so powerful that it doesn't have a mother...for whatever the heck that means.

And for the last time, I understand I don't have the authority or the fame to this forum to make charismatic arguments but I'd like people who are familiar with high-rate ladder to at least give this nomination a thought at least.

 

[Olijolly]

I'd like to nominate Garchomp for S.

This may be a very unpopular opinion and I'm a very new smogon user but I figured I give it a try at least. While garchomp isn't mega Kang, it is a metagame-defining pokemon due to its near omnipotence and ridiculously high usage from low to high ratings. It had 30+% usage from 1400-1600 ratings group as well as for 1800+ ratings group. This is mostly due to having "perfect" stat distribution with high utility to run so many top-tier sets. it is ever so easy to fit into teams as many of its sets provide amazing support, sweeping potential, revenge killing potential, or combinations of the three. Almost every team carries around ice beam carrying pokemons with the biggest reasons being garchomp and landorus. Cresselia and Porygon 2 (P2 is dropping though) had one of their main uses as garchomp "counter". People's "over"preparation for garchomp, as well as over preparation for bird spam, has led to salamence-mega to be barely hanging on to be a top-12 pokemon. Garchomp in my honest opinion is the most versatile pokemon with MANY top-tier variants...and that I believe is enough to warrant a spot in S for garchomp. Usage =/= power in general but when a pokemon is used 30+% on all high-rate teams, I believe there's a good reason for that.

Also, Koreans usually refer garchomp to be 사기 or 엠창몬: former referring garchomp as being overpowered and the latter referring to garchomp as a pokemon so powerful that it doesn't have a mother...for whatever the heck that means.

And for the last time, I understand I don't have the authority or the fame to this forum to make charismatic arguments but I'd like people who are familiar with high-rate ladder to at least give this nomination a thought at least.

I'm rather neutral to this since I do agree with the fact that garchomp is ridiculously prevalent in the 3v3 singles. It has so many sets to pump up its versatility. However, one dilemma I have is that I truly think it deserves to be in the same rank as mega salamence but I don't think mega salamence deserves S. On the other hand, I agree with pretty much everything you've said. I'll wait for someone else to give their input.

 

[DragonWhale]

Relevancy doesn't necessarily equal viability. Garchomp is just the type of pokemon where you can go "I need a certain pokemon to fill an X role. Oh, Garchomp can do it", where X applies to many things (set up rocks, set up SD, beat status with lum, Scarf sweeper, Band sweeper, passive damage dealer with rocky helm and rough skin, speed control with rock tomb, etc). For this reason it's easy for it to fit into many teams, even if quad ice weakness overlaps with Mega Salamence or Landorus-T just because it can perform a certain function that the user requires in the team. S-Rank is usually for pokemon that can pretty much win you games with little to no support, which is not something that Garchomp can really do since as you mentioned it does face a lot of pokemon which it straight up cannot beat. Mega Kangaskhan and Mega Gengar (and Aegislash to a lesser extent, I personally don't think it deserves S-Rank) are on a completely different level in this regard.

 

[Kye]

^I understand that. Hence, I said usage =/= power in my earlier post. However, in the case of garchomp, I believe his versatility far exceeds the simple notion of filling in many roles. Garchomp fills in too many ways too easily. I view him as somewhat like scizor of gen 4 but with more set options to run while having far more utility value in terms of roles. Again, I am not endorsing for the notion of "usage always equals power". But in this case, I believe garchomp's 30+% usage in 1800+ rating battles does somewhat show how good it is overall.

Edit: Thanks for the reply. I thought I might as try to say what I thought about garchomp at least.

 

[Demantoid]

Nominating Hippowdon for A- from Unranked. How was it not ranked ?

Hippowdon is an extremely bulky Pokémon with a great support movepool. Hippowdon's physical bulk makes it one of the few switch ins to Mega Kangaskhan and specially defensive sets can check Charizard Y. Hippowdon is one of the most reliable Stealth Rock setters which chips away at the opposing team along with sand and potentially Rocky Helmet and Toxic damage. Yawn allows for easy set up for a sweeper like Nasty Plot Mega Lucario and pairs welly with Stealth Rock. Hippowdon's also has a relatively high attack stat along with STAB Earthquake and coverage in Rock Slide/Tomb. Hippowdon's low speed also lets it underspeed Aegislash if wanted to OHKO in blade form or 2HKO in Shield form. Hippowdon also has reliable recovery with Slack Off which lets it sit on the field for long periods of time. Hippowdon does have trouble with water and grass types and is relatively useless after taunted. You can also run Water Pulse for other Hippowdon.

Also I think Thundurus could move up but I'm not sure how far.

 

[The Crimson Battler]

So, many people may agree with me on this one, but drifblim is the ultimate setup pokemon and should be at least b rank. With the lack of an evasion clause in battle spot singles, and drifblim's ability to quickly setup minimize, stockpile, and baton pass out, is more than enough to, not only put drifblim on the list, but put him pretty high on the list.

 

[Misaka Mikoto]

So, many people may agree with me on this one, but drifblim is the ultimate setup pokemon and should be at least b rank. With the lack of an evasion clause in battle spot singles, and drifblim's ability to quickly setup minimize, stockpile, and baton pass out, is more than enough to, not only put drifblim on the list, but put him pretty high on the list.

Even with the evasion clause being lifted in Battle Spot Singles, it apparently has to rely on luck for it to continue to set up after Minimize. I do remember running a set that consisted of:

Drifblim @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Unburden
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Spe
Nature: Bold
- Baton Pass
- Substitute / Thunder Wave (I switch up between the two)
- Minimize
- Stockpile

My Opinion on its Rank

I'd say that giving Drifblim Rank B is too high for it in my opinion. I even say it doesn't surpass Serperior, which is B-. I would rather put it in C- Rank. (Leaning towards D+ because of how gimmicky evasion is and that Scolipede outclasses it in Baton Pass.)

My Reasoning

Despite Drifblim having access to a nice set of support moves, Battle Spot Singles has the evasion clause lifted, so it really depends on luck for Drifblim to get hit after a Minimize or two. I do say that the set sometimes work and sometimes, it doesn't work. The reason is because Taunt users are pretty common in Battle Spot Singles. Take Thundurus for example. It has Prankster and can Taunt you, preventing any kind of set up whatsoever. Whimsicott and Liepard is common as well. Drifblim is easily walled by Steel-, Rock-, and Electric-types. It is also opened to priority moves. Clefable and Chansey are better at using Minimize than Drifblim is and they both outclass it by a lot. I also just don't see it outclassing Scolipede either when it comes to Baton Pass. Scolipede is able to get a stat boost off due to its ability, Speed Boost. Also, it has access to Swords Dance in helping praise physical sweepers. Unlike Drifblim, it does have to waste turns to set up and rely on sheer luck to make a safe Baton Pass over to its teammate. Lets look at its stats as well. Base 80 Speed is pretty bad on Drifblim considering it is a fast-pace metagame. Many Pokemon that outspeed it, won't have a problem in taking it down. Also, it'll need to get its HP down to 50% for Sitrus Berry to keep its longevity going a turn or two if you set up already. Not to mention, it'll have to wait for Unburden to activate as well. Drifblim lacks any means of offensive boosts. I guess you can pass Minimize and Calm Mind onto another Pokemon; however, I prefer Stockpile because of Defense boosts and the amount of physical attackers. Its offensive stats are pretty bad and it lacks any means of recovery outside of Pain Split. The base 44 Defense and 54 Special Defense doesn't match its impressive base 150 HP (Now I'm feeling kind of bad for it...)

Drifblim has a nice offensive typing, but I don't think it is necessarily good defensively. Drifblim would have to deal with Gengar, Landorus-T, Mamoswine, Greninja, Thundurus, and so many more threats that keeps it from being good.

 

[RandomBro]

the list is missing quite a bit of pokemon.

bronzong should at the very least be on the list, although im not sure at what rank.


a specially defensive set walls mega gardevoir, sylveon, checks both latis, walls calm mind cresselia extremely hard, hard checks vivillon for whatever thats worth, walls porygon 2s toxic shenanigans and can hold its own against serperior. trick room+gyro ball on bronzong is pretty good.



252+ SpA Mega Gardevoir Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Bronzong: 59-70 (33.9 - 40.2%) -- 46.1% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 Atk Bronzong Gyro Ball (111 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Gardevoir: 162-192 (113.2 - 134.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO


0 SpA Pixilate Sylveon Hyper Voice vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Bronzong: 24-28 (13.7 - 16%) -- possibly the worst move ever
gyro ball does pathetic damage on its own so it should be combined with toxic.
4 Atk Bronzong Gyro Ball (58 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Sylveon: 84-102 (41.5 - 50.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery


252+ SpA Life Orb Latios Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Bronzong: 51-61 (29.3 - 35%) -- possibly the worst move ever
252+ SpA Life Orb Latios Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Bronzong: 65-78 (37.3 - 44.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 Atk Bronzong Gyro Ball (118 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latios: 75-88 (48.3 - 56.7%) -- 87.5% chance to 2HKO
life orb damage takes away any doubt of gyroball 2HKOing.


252+ SpA Life Orb Latias Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Bronzong: 47-55 (27 - 31.6%) -- possibly the worst move ever
4 Atk Bronzong Gyro Ball (119 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Latias: 67-79 (43.2 - 50.9%) -- 3.1% chance to 2HKO
again, life orb damage secures the 2HKO from gyro ball.


+6 0 SpA Cresselia Psychic vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Bronzong: 26-31 (14.9 - 17.8%) -- possible 8HKO after Leftovers recovery
+6 0 SpA Cresselia Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Bronzong: 31-37 (17.8 - 21.2%) -- possible 7HKO after Leftovers recovery
+6 0 SpA Cresselia Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Bronzong: 37-44 (21.2 - 25.2%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
cress has absolutely no chance at breaking bronzongs bulk+resistances. cress is easily worn down by toxic.

+3 252+ SpA Vivillon Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Bronzong: 66-78 (37.9 - 44.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 Atk Bronzong Gyro Ball (103 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Vivillon: 93-109 (60 - 70.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery


+2 252+ SpA Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Bronzong: 55-66 (31.6 - 37.9%) -- possibly the worst move ever
+2 252+ SpA Serperior Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Bronzong: 68-82 (39 - 47.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 Atk Bronzong Gyro Ball (121 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Serperior: 66-78 (44 - 52%) -- 9.4% chance to 2HKO
bronzong isnt enough to be a dedicated counter, but toxic+gyroball weakens serperior by such a significant amount that it will probably almost be dead from toxic after bronzong dies.

 

[ethan06]

i'm actually stupid

You know, I'm actually amazed that Weavile isn't up here somewhere yet. It's really good; fast Knock Offs are a godsend in a meta where Aegislash reigns supreme, it's one of the meta's finest Dragon slayers with its STAB Ice Shard, which makes it one of the few Pokémon in the meta to be able to revenge kill Choice Scarf Garchomp and boosted Mega Salamence from close to full HP. A Fake Out + Ice Shard combination gives it a way of finishing weakened Talonflame, provided they're not 252 Jolly; it can even run Low Kick to damage Kangaskhan and Heatran. It is, unfortunately, stopped cold by Azumarill most of the time, and it's ridiculously frail, meaning that it can't be used as a switch-in more than once, and even then it can only come in on some attacks. Despite that, Weavile is a very versatile and splashable Pokémon for offensive teams that are struggling with Salamence, Serperior and Gengar, as well as everything else that it slaps around. B+ imo.

You know what actually isn't on the list? Scrafty. This Pokémon is a really good bulky attacker that is capable of eating pretty much any neutral hit that the format can throw at it, as well as a couple of super-effective ones when it has a couple of Bulk Ups under its belt. I'll admit that SpDef Bulk Up is the only set I've tried, but it's a really good stall breaker and a stellar tank that can level entire teams by itself provided they didn't bring a check for it. Unfortunately, Scrafty is a Pokémon that really feels its weaknesses: while it can stomach neutral hits and status for days, it simply cannot hold up to a Conkeldurr, or a Sylveon, or a Talonflame, or a Salamence, or an Azumarill - the list goes on. These common threats make Scrafty more of a "sometimes" Pokémon, in that it isn't as splashable as some of the top threats and nowhere near as easy to pick at Team Preview. However, it has it's niches as a status sponge, stall check and hard Aegislash stop (it underspeeds and hits Aegislash's Blade Forme with Knock Off), as well as looking like a badass and instantly making your team more cool. Solid B rank imo.

 

[King Shroomish]

Sorry but without any offense, are thinking garchomp should be S and blaziken should be in A+ very unpopular thoughts?

I just saw cantsay referring to garchomp is potentially the best pokemon on battle spot singles on the most recent battle spot singles RMT (http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/xy-battlespot-singles-team.3541328/). And it got me thinking. I've, at least, ghosted around the forums to know cantsay is a knowledgeable BS singles player who makes legitimate claims. I've read through the thread, including some thoughts regarding garchomp's current standings and I firmly believe, while it's not sweeping teams like mega kangskhan or dooming an opponent's pokemon with mega gengar, its versatility to fit into teams make it metagame changer. Just the fact that, should've-been-S mega salamence isn't S due to everyone already being prepared for it through making preparations against garchomp shows just how ridiculous garchomp's influence over the metagame is. Its ubiquity is absolutely ridiculous and is on mega kangskhan's level. Because it's so good and doesn't require a mega slot often makes people just slap a garchomp into a team if they don't particular have a pokemon in mind for their teams.

As for blaziken, this thing is constantly ranked just as high, or close to, garchomp and mega salamence by the Japanese players on Japanese blogs (when they are posted). Why is it at A and not higher?

I'm not really challenging the tier list but just asking for people's thoughts regarding these two pokemons. What are your thoughts?

 

[NOVED]

I think both of these are definite possibilities. Blaziken is really good and in my opinion kind of underrated by this community. It's so powerful that a lot of "bulky" pokemon can't even switch in without being 2hko'd. Blaziken has a huge amount of potential to clean up a team late game if you manage to weaken it enough. And it can run a decent variety when it comes to it's third move, SD, baton pass, rock move, hp ice, knock off are all good options and easily interchangeable. Definitely supporting it for A+.

As for Garchomp, I think it is probably worthy of S because of how much it can do and how consistently it does everything it can do. It may not be as good as other S ranks like Gengar and Kan but it's definitely something i'd consider to be a top tier pokemon in battle spot and it's easily better than most if not all of the current A+ mons(salamence is arguable i guess).

In fact, I think we should probably follow the steps of most japanese tier lists and add an SS tier, where mega gengar could probably go and maybe even Kangaskhan. If that were to happen I think Garchomp fitting in S would make much more sense. Tiers that have a lot of insanely powerful pokemon often do something like this anyway, look at the Ubers viability list for example.

 

[Kye]

I think both of these are definite possibilities. Blaziken is really good and in my opinion kind of underrated by this community. It's so powerful that a lot of "bulky" pokemon can't even switch in without being 2hko'd. Blaziken has a huge amount of potential to clean up a team late game if you manage to weaken it enough. And it can run a decent variety when it comes to it's third move, SD, baton pass, rock move, hp ice, knock off are all good options and easily interchangeable. Definitely supporting it for A+.

As for Garchomp, I think it is probably worthy of S because of how much it can do and how consistently it does everything it can do. It may not be as good as other S ranks like Gengar and Kan but it's definitely something i'd consider to be a top tier pokemon in battle spot and it's easily better than most if not all of the current A+ mons(salamence is arguable i guess).

In fact, I think we should probably follow the steps of most japanese tier lists and add an SS tier, where mega gengar could probably go and maybe even Kangaskhan. If that were to happen I think Garchomp fitting in S would make much more sense. Tiers that have a lot of insanely powerful pokemon often do something like this anyway, look at the Ubers viability list for example.

I agree with this. While garchomp is significantly better than the rest of A+, barring mega salamence, it is arguably the 3rd most influential pokemon in the game. Though its dominance isn't as big as mega kangaskhan and mega gengar, imo, I believe its versatility and easiness to fit into teams is far greater than the aforementioned two to warrant a spot in S.

 

[cant say]

I've, at least, ghosted around the forums to know cantsay is a knowledgeable BS singles player who makes legitimate claims.

Good to see my facade is as strong as ever, haha.

I've actually been thinking about this recently and have to agree that Garchomp is S worthy. We've talked about how usage =/= viability, but when something has been number one in usage in every season this generation (10 seasons total) then I think an exception can be made. Another huge point in Garchomp's favor is that it is not a mega evolution. When looking at the current S rank, 2/3 are megas, with Aegislash being the only non-mega up there. Aegislash is amazing, no doubt about that and he is staying S rank as far as I'm concerned, but I don't understand how Garchomp can be ranked lower than it.

Enough comparing, let's look at Garchomp individually. I already mentioned that it doesn't take a mega slot, meaning it can be splashed onto basically any team. To add onto that, he can use a ridiculous amount of items viably, so if something else in your team needs a certain item more, Garchomp's item can be changed up rather than straight up removing it from your team. He also has an expansive movepool, and the stat distribution to run many different sets. His moveset can also be tailored to get around certain checks, meaning that some traditional checks like Ferrothorn, Scizor, Rotom-W, Azumarill, Thundurus, Togekiss etc can be played around. He's probably the most recommendable Pokemon to new players for his ability to do almost any role and fit onto any team easily.

When looking at the description for the rank, I feel like he fits the description for S rank better than A rank too:

Reserved for Pokemon that are amazing in the Battle Spot singles metagame. These Pokemon are usually able to perform a variety of roles effectively, or can just do one extremely well. Their use has low risk involved and high reward exerted. Pokemon in this rank have very few flaws that are patched up by numerous positive traits.

Reserved for Pokemon that are fantastic in the Battle Spot singles metagame, and can sweep, support, or wall significant portions of the metagame. These Pokemon require less support than most others to be used effectively and have few flaws that can easily be overlooked when compared to their positive traits.

The descriptions aren't actually that different when you look at them, so a case could be made for both, but I believe Garchomp fits the bill for S Rank

tl;dr

• comparable viability to those in S Rank
• Doesn't take a mega slot
• Can use more items than any mon
• Has more viable sets than any other mon
• Can play around specific counters by tailoring its build
• Has been #1 every season in Battle Spot Singles

I think that's enough. Put Garchomp in S imo

As for Blaziken, I'm worried my opinion is a little biased since he's just one of my favourites to use, but I can agree with A+ for him. Speed Boost is a ridiculous ability, and if you've gotten rid of Talonflame / Azumarill then not much else can take it down. Being able to run a bunch of sets viably (physical, special, mixed, baton pass) gives him plenty of unpredictability and therefore is viable enough for A+ imo

 

[lordkira]

I agree with can't say for blaziken and garchomp getting promotions for the reasons that have been mentioned in the post above. Usage doesn't necessarily represent prowess but I'd also have to say garchomp should be an exception when he's being seen once every 1/3 1800+ rated teams. For not having mega gengar's trapping ability or mega kangaskhan's raw power, garchomp makes up for it by not taking up a mega slot and being so ridiculously versatile to fit into all sorts of teams. And he fits into roles/teams INCREDIBLY well.

As for blaziken, I don't believe can't say is being biased. I think it's just good. Good enough to be promoted. Speed boost is amazing. Not having as much bulk as some of the other top tiers isn;t as big of an issue in 3v3 from my experience.

As for SS tier, I don't know. I just don't know.

 

[Olijolly]

While I agree that garchomp is everywhere, I still can't agree with the claims that it should be promoted to S, simply because I don't agree with garchomp being in the same tier as Kang-Mega and Gengar-Mega. Furthermore, while garchomp is amazing, I don't particularly see it being an overall superior pokemon to Salamence-Mega. Hence, I'd also like to see the implementation of SS tier with Mega gengar and Mega Kang in there with S tier including garchomp and Mega Mence...as NOVED mentioned. As for Blaziken, I'd like to see it in A+ for the reasons cantsay mentioned.

 

[lordkira]

While I agree that garchomp is everywhere, I still can't agree with the claims that it should be promoted to S, simply because I don't agree with garchomp being in the same tier as Kang-Mega and Gengar-Mega. Furthermore, while garchomp is amazing, I don't particularly see it being an overall superior pokemon to Salamence-Mega. Hence, I'd also like to see the implementation of SS tier with Mega gengar and Mega Kang in there with S tier including garchomp and Mega Mence...as NOVED mentioned. As for Blaziken, I'd like to see it in A+ for the reasons cantsay mentioned.

When strictly comparing garchomp to the other S-tier pokemons, I believe its ability to have so many tremendously good sets along with not taking up a mega slot is enough to place garchomp alongside mega gengar and kangaskhan. Also, I'd like to ask why aegislash is in S. It's a good pokemon but I don't quite see it having enough merit to be in S.

 

[Olijolly]

When strictly comparing garchomp to the other S-tier pokemons, I believe its ability to have so many tremendously good sets along with not taking up a mega slot is enough to place garchomp alongside mega gengar and kangaskhan. Also, I'd like to ask why aegislash is in S. It's a good pokemon but I don't quite see it having enough merit to be in S.

I understand the supporting arguments for garchomp to be promoted. However, I still don't quite see garchomp as a game-changing, metagame-shiting force as mega kangaskhan and mega gengar are. To me, BSS garchomp seems much more like generation 4 scizor: amazingly high usage throughout the generation, easy to fit into various teams, but not broken. I'm sorry but I don't quite agree with garchomp being in S with mega kangaskhan/gengar and a tier above mega salamence.

 

[King Shroomish]

To people that disagree with garchomp/blaziken being in S/A+, I'd like to apologize for my lack of knowledge in the metagame. I have asked around regarding garchomp, mega salamence, and blaziken on the IRC channel for a while to try them out on the battle spot singles. I've only recently joined the forums but I have dwelled around this section of the forums for a few weeks now (I couldn't get my account to be varified for the longest time!). My arguments are solely made from my own experiences and I've only been able to reach 1800 at most on the battle spot singles so I can't say I'm very good. Still, I'd love to see what more people think about garchomp, blaziken, and I suppose mega salamence now.

Thanks for all the help (I got so much!) and hope to learn much from the community! I'm off to work now!

 

[Jibaku]

Got to mention this here because this is huge but Thundurus has no business being in B. It should be bumped all the way to A+ because it's pretty flexible setwise and can bring a lot to a team. Clutch TWaves, NP sweeper (near impossible to wall, requires revenger, which may be vulnerable to twave instead), tank (yes, full tank thundurus exists due to typing and prankster), and even Swagplay.

 

[Kye]

I just want some clarification. For those that want garchomp to be in S, do you want it to be in the same tier as mega kangaskhan and gengar? Or do you want the creation of a higher tier, such as SS, for mega kangaskhan and gengar to be bumped up into? I don't particularly have an opinion on this matter but NOVED has mentioned the creation of SS tier. Also, if the latter, what of mega salamence?

Got to mention this here because this is huge but Thundurus has no business being in B. It should be bumped all the way to A+ because it's pretty flexible setwise and can bring a lot to a team. Clutch TWaves, NP sweeper (near impossible to wall, requires revenger, which may be vulnerable to twave instead), tank (yes, full tank thundurus exists due to typing and prankster), and even Swagplay.

Agreed. Thundurus has so many annoying sets that can ruin the opponent's momentum in a heartbeat. I'm not certain if I agree with it being in A+ but it's far better than any pokemons in the B tier as a whole.