Baton Pass - its role in the metagame and possible solutions to nerf full Baton Pass chains

[Srn]

Well, the idea would be to wear the BP team down first with repeated powerful attacks while he keeps accumulating boosts, thinking he's gonna sweep you at some point. That's when you bring in Quagsire and Haze. I assure you that many players will ragequit after their severely damaged team has to try and start the chain all over again (because they know they can't anymore, they also know you have Haze regardless). Comments like these show that people here have no idea what Baton Pass is even like. All I see is theorymon all over the place. This is not directed at you specifically but a lot of people commenting on here.

Quagsire won't exist on teams with strong enough pokemon to make these type of holes. Quagsire should only be, and is only, used on stall.

Please don't delete this, and ban me Haunter. I am trying to be a good citizen.

I personally found that one of the easier ways of beating baton pass is fly spam with Pinsir, Talonflame, or any other Pokemon that learns a powerful flying move.

Literally no baton pass team runs mega scizor with iron defense, which is literally the only way to beat fly-spam.

I have found out, that the only way the opposing player
Can win, is to predict really well,
On flying Pokemon vs. smeargle, and if you predict the spore, and go into another Pokemon, to take it, they can just as easily baton pass into their physical wall (usually vaporeon) and set up an acid armor. The only way the opposing player can win at this point, is to have some extremely powerful special attacker (LO lando for an example) with some kind of attack to get rid of sylveon.

This is just a post to say one of the easier ways to beat baton pass, I am not saying that this strategy is not broken (if you run stall, you're utterly fucked) but it can be won against with a consistent strategy, which is contrary to the previous Pokemon / strategies that have been merged before.

Zapdos is a pretty good option for baton pass to back up speed boosts with agility, and can take fly spam with ease.
Also, while you do provide a somewhat valid scenario, its quite impossible to double switch when the move the opponent is using is baton pass. And double switching is about 50% of what you do when you predict anyway.

And for the last time people:

Haze Quagsire isn't enough to beat Baton Pass.

 

[Hiddenfreezer]

Maybe I missed something completly obvious, but Curse Harvest Treveant pretty much always saved me against any baton pass teams (alongside some hazards). It is also literally ONE move on one pokemon, it is viable to deal with Excadrill for example and finally Curse can be a last ditch win condition.
Prankster Klefki Trick also deals with Baton Pass. And no one can tell me that Trickkey isn't viable.

Furthermore, why are we trying to ban something that actually recquires skill?

 

[SCIENCE!!!]

I don't think baton pass should be banned. I think that it is not unhealthy to the metagame. The only gains this gen were baton pass scolipede and mega absol, a big threat admittedly, but most inexperienced players won't choose him as a mega in lieu of stronger megas. Also, mega absol has very few moves to pass.


Question 1: Is Baton Pass (with specific reference to full Baton Pass teams) a problem for the development of the metagame?
No. It was and is annoying, but it hasn't changed much from last generation. It just isn't the best strategy. An well constructed team can easily beat baton pass. Also, while baton passing speed to something like kyureum-black is is powerful, it can not destroy everything.

Question 2: Do you believe that banning individual Pokémon (such as Espeon/Scolipede) would make Baton Pass manageable?
Only mega absol. Espeon wasn't banned last gen, and scolipede is like a stronger ninjask, which was in NU. In my opinion, mega absol is a huge threat on baton pass, with SD, magic bounce, and great stats. Mega absol is the biggest threat on Baton Pass.

Question 3: Would you support a blanket ban on the move Baton Pass?
No. These teams are central to the metagame. On all my teams, I always have at least one Baton Passer.

Question 4: Would you support the introduction of complex bans (like Pokémon X+Pokémon Y on the same team)? Feel free to suggest more forms of complex bans, of course.
Depends on the ban. A ban of mega absol with baton pass would be really nice. He would still be a great pokemon, but just not a baton passer.


Thank you for listening to my opinion on Baton Pass teams.

 

[Daniel Farmer]

I don't think baton pass should be banned. I think that it is not unhealthy to the metagame. The only gains this gen were baton pass scolipede and mega absol, a big threat admittedly, but most inexperienced players won't choose him as a mega in lieu of stronger megas. Also, mega absol has very few moves to pass.


Question 1: Is Baton Pass (with specific reference to full Baton Pass teams) a problem for the development of the metagame?
No. It was and is annoying, but it hasn't changed much from last generation. It just isn't the best strategy. An well constructed team can easily beat baton pass. Also, while baton passing speed to something like kyureum-black is is powerful, it can not destroy everything.

Question 2: Do you believe that banning individual Pokémon (such as Espeon/Scolipede) would make Baton Pass manageable?
Only mega absol. Espeon wasn't banned last gen, and scolipede is like a stronger ninjask, which was in NU. In my opinion, mega absol is a huge threat on baton pass, with SD, magic bounce, and great stats. Mega absol is the biggest threat on Baton Pass.

Question 3: Would you support a blanket ban on the move Baton Pass?
No. These teams are central to the metagame. On all my teams, I always have at least one Baton Passer.

Question 4: Would you support the introduction of complex bans (like Pokémon X+Pokémon Y on the same team)? Feel free to suggest more forms of complex bans, of course.
Depends on the ban. A ban of mega absol with baton pass would be really nice. He would still be a great pokemon, but just not a baton passer.


Thank you for listening to my opinion on Baton Pass teams.

How many BP teams have you battled with? No one uses Mega Absol. It's always Scolipede, Smeargle, vaporen, Sylveon, Mr. Mime/Zapdos and of course, Espeon. The same thing over and over again. It not only takes little to no skill to use the same team and strategy every single time, but is also very predictable and boring. What makes it worse is that even if a good player knows what's about to happen, he/she cannot stop it after they gain a few boosts, which is unstoppable thanks to Speed Boost + Substitute.

 

[Punchshroom]

For the record, we're looking to nerf the playstyle, not ban Baton Pass as a whole, unless there is really no other non-complex or roundabout way to do so.

Some of the bans I've seen would be to ban Speed Boost + Baton Pass, which reduces the 'machine-like' factor of Baton Pass, since they won't be able to automatically accumulate Speed (the most important stat for Baton Pass) by Sub stalling, instead they are forced to try to actively boost their Speed, making it a bit easier to handle. That said, if they do manage to nab the Speed boost just once, then it would already likely be an uphill battle against the Baton Pass team. This is also one of the factors that got Blaziken banned, and players may argue for a retest if this ban were to happen.

Another I've seen is to ban Magic Bounce + Baton Pass, which pretty much excludes Espeon (and Mega Absol?) from Baton Pass teams and significantly nerfing them. The only problem to this ban is that it would significantly nerf Espeon itself as well, since Baton Pass is still a great move to have on the kitty, either to evade Pursuit and Sucker Punch, or to take advantage of the switches Yawn forces.

The most proposed for ban I've seen is to limit the number of Baton Passers on a team. The biggest question to this is how many would be considered acceptable, and how many would be crossing the line? Or is it the number of Baton Passers on a team that is the problem, or just specific Baton Passers themselves (see above)?

As you can see, there is no easy way to approach this issue. Hopefully a solid consensus will be made soon.

 

[WebBowser]

How many BP teams have you battled with? No one uses Mega Absol. It's always Scolipede, Smeargle, vaporen, Sylveon, Mr. Mime/Zapdos and of course, Espeon. The same thing over and over again. It not only takes little to no skill to use the same team and strategy every single time, but is also very predictable and boring. What makes it worse is that even if a good player knows what's about to happen, he/she cannot stop it after they gain a few boosts, which is unstoppable thanks to Speed Boost + Substitute.

I swear if I had a nickle every time this is said in this thread...

As you have stated, full BP teams are painfully obvious in the team preview. Most members of a BP team run no attacks and would be considered taunt/setup bait if it weren't for the fact that they can setup harder and have espeon. Here's the thing, for the first few turns, no one on the BP team is a threat. Not sylveon, not zapdos, not scolopede, and certainly not espeon. This means that you can send out your favorite wall breaker and begin smashing. Without defense boosts, BP teams are actually very frail and will fall to pretty much any wall breaker worth using. Good mons like talonflame, lando-I, darmantian, and pretty much every mega not named venusaur (mega hera's a standout btw). If these are too mainstream for you, you can try more niche wallbreakers like Cloyster, Clawetzer, Nidoking, and so on. There are no shortage of OU viable wallbreakers folks, use them.

I still think stall is screwed by BP, sry Aj.

 

[rachet67]

For the record, we're looking to nerf the playstyle, not ban Baton Pass as a whole, unless there is really no other non-complex or roundabout way to do so.

Some of the bans I've seen would be to ban Speed Boost + Baton Pass, which reduces the 'machine-like' factor of Baton Pass, since they won't be able to automatically accumulate Speed (the most important stat for Baton Pass) by Sub stalling, instead they are forced to try to actively boost their Speed, making it a bit easier to handle. That said, if they do manage to nab the Speed boost just once, then it would already likely be an uphill battle against the Baton Pass team. This is also one of the factors that got Blaziken banned, and players may argue for a retest if this ban were to happen.

Another I've seen is to ban Magic Bounce + Baton Pass, which pretty much excludes Espeon (and Mega Absol?) from Baton Pass teams and significantly nerfing them. The only problem to this ban is that it would significantly nerf Espeon itself as well, since Baton Pass is still a great move to have on the kitty, either to evade Pursuit and Sucker Punch, or to take advantage of the switches Yawn forces.

The most proposed for ban I've seen is to limit the number of Baton Passers on a team. The biggest question to this is how many would be considered acceptable, and how many would be crossing the line? Or is it the number of Baton Passers on a team that is the problem, or just specific Baton Passers themselves (see above)?

As you can see, there is no easy way to approach this issue. Hopefully a solid consensus will be made soon.

Another common solution people are suggesting is to ban Magic Bounce+Speed Boost+Baton Pass or just Magic bounce+Speed Boost. I prefer the latter, as its a lot simpler, and because you'll only ever find Scolioped and Espeon together on a full BP team anyways.

 

[Aquaslash]

I am wholly against any kind of ban to BP, but if I HAD to ban something, it would be Speed Boost + 4 baton passers. Maybe even 3. It's clear enough to me that Scoli is the biggest threat. Having a limited number of boosters with him puts heavy pressure on the BP player to keep him and Espeon alive, while still giving them a fighting chance.

This also allows teams with Agility passers to be just fine because it's hard enough already without auto speed boosting.

This is a last resort. I'd much prefer to leave them be because BP is a risky tactic as it is

 

[Flechazo]

Some of the bans I've seen would be to ban Speed Boost + Baton Pass, which reduces the 'machine-like' factor of Baton Pass, since they won't be able to automatically accumulate Speed (the most important stat for Baton Pass) by Sub stalling, instead they are forced to try to actively boost their Speed, making it a bit easier to handle. That said, if they do manage to nab the Speed boost just once, then it would already likely be an uphill battle against the Baton Pass team. This is also one of the factors that got Blaziken banned, and players may argue for a retest if this ban were to happen.

Though I am completely anti-nerf, banning Speed Boost + Baton Pass seems like a more appropriate compromise, since Scolipede--and not Espeon--is the real crux of today's Baton Pass teams. Also, Speed Boost has always been traditionally controversial since it's the best ability in the game, allowing simultaneous boosts. That being said, it is important to mention that Scolipede is manageable, especially with Talonflame as the lead, and the existence of answers, when played early and intelligently (Remember, Baton Pass teams are like ticking time bombs: You have to disarm then early), makes me say no to any nerf.

 

[Ajwf]

I still think stall is screwed by BP, sry Aj.

You know, I could write a whole book about community response to threats to different playstyles... Swagger comes up and everyone wants it gone. Stall loses two or three of its most useful tools vs Baton pass: Phazing, Prediction and countering.... It is really a difficult task to do when they ignore all aspects of prediction, block all aspects of phazing and just continuously build boosts preventing us from countering. I could say utility moves in general (Like taunt) because stall does require a certain amount of the opponent actually playing against the stall user and not just pretending its a 1 player game and chaining boosts for a while. Try destroying a setup sweeper with 6x the usual health, changing typing and abilities and one that constantly changes what can counter it. Like an infinitely bulkier greninja who also randomly changes abilities.

 

[Seiterman]

So, in this thread, notwithstanding the general rules of this forum, we expect you to address mainly the following points:

• Is Baton Pass (with specific reference to full Baton Pass teams) a problem for the development of the metagame?
• If so, what elements, in particular, do you think are pushing Baton Pass over the edge?
• Do you believe that banning individual Pokémon (such as Espeon/Scolipede) would make Baton Pass manageable?
• Would you support a blanket ban on the move Baton Pass?
• Would you support the introduction of complex bans (like Pokémon X+Pokémon Y on the same team)? Feel free to suggest more forms of complex bans, of course.

1. I'm inclined to say that BP Teams hinder the metagame's development due to the match-up-reliant nature of the team archetype. A lot of people agree that Baton Pass isn't a luck-based strategy like SwagPlay was, but I actually have to disagree with that. They're luck based in entirely different ways: with SwagPlay, the coin flips happened during every match. With BP, it's like the coin flip happens during matchmaking; if you're up against something that stops BP, then you're probably out of luck, and vice-versa. Though I think there are more answers to BP than are really being brought up in this thread, they still aren't numerous or viable enough on their own (in some cases,) to make BP a bad idea for the user.

2. I don't know that there's really anything in particular that pushes BP over the edge. All of the parts of standard BP are totally reasonable on their own; this is undeniable, I believe.

3. Sure, it'd be manageable, but it would also likely nerf the playstyle to the point where it loses the majority of games again. Without Espeon, there's really nothing to stop status moves from ruining a pass (as well as certain forms of phazing.) Without Scolipede, many would go back to Ninjask, who's too frail and weak to really do Scolipede's job. Whether or not it's okay to nerf the playstyle to that extent is another question entirely. I'd personally be totally okay with it, as I'd prefer a less match-up-based metagame to one where people have the freedom to play full BP teams. It's not like there aren't numerous other playstyles out there; they just take more thought (which is kind of the point of playing competitive Pokemon.)

4. No, I definitely don't support banning the move entirely. It's not like Swagger where any Pokemon that gets it can royally screw over a perfectly good team. The move has legitimate competitive merit.

5. I don't have anything against a complex ban, but I'm really not sure which one I'd go with. I'd likely choose to nerf Espeon's role in the chain, with something like a Magic Bounce+Baton Pass Ban. This opens up a lot of options in terms of answers to the archetype. I can see Scolipede as a big contributor to the problem too, but I don't think he'd be nearly as bad without the threat of Espeon in the wings. Espeon didn't change since last gen, but I think his supporting crew lets him do his job much better than before.

 

[Red Cat]

The most proposed for ban I've seen is to limit the number of Baton Passers on a team. The biggest question to this is how many would be considered acceptable, and how many would be crossing the line? Or is it the number of Baton Passers on a team that is the problem, or just specific Baton Passers themselves (see above)?

While I am against any ban, if we are going to have any limit to the number of Baton Passers, I would say that we should just require that at least one Pokemon on your team does not know Baton Pass. Baton Pass teams generally require all 6 Pokemon to be effective, so just limiting it to 5 would be good enough in my opinion. As for other bans, I personally think Stored Power + Baton Pass would be the least disruptive to other strategies and the most self-explanatory ban. Chain passing to a sweeper without Baton Pass is a gimmicky strategy, but one which should not be caught in the crossfire of an attempt to nerf defensive BP teams.

 

[Daniel Farmer]

I swear if I had a nickle every time this is said in this thread...

As you have stated, full BP teams are painfully obvious in the team preview. Most members of a BP team run no attacks and would be considered taunt/setup bait if it weren't for the fact that they can setup harder and have espeon. Here's the thing, for the first few turns, no one on the BP team is a threat. Not sylveon, not zapdos, not scolopede, and certainly not espeon. This means that you can send out your favorite wall breaker and begin smashing. Without defense boosts, BP teams are actually very frail and will fall to pretty much any wall breaker worth using. Good mons like talonflame, lando-I, darmantian, and pretty much every mega not named venusaur (mega hera's a standout btw). If these are too mainstream for you, you can try more niche wallbreakers like Cloyster, Clawetzer, Nidoking, and so on. There are no shortage of OU viable wallbreakers folks, use them.

I still think stall is screwed by BP, sry Aj.

Talonflame has a base 81 attack stat, I do not see how you could call it a wallbreaker. It's completely walled by Rotom-W, Heatran, hell even any physically defensive pokemon. Late game cleaning is what Talonflame does best, it doesn't have the raw power to break walls.

Let's say I lead with my favorite wallbreaker, Mega Pinsir, anticipating the ever so obvious Scolipede lead.

252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Quick Attack vs. 252 HP / 232 Def Scolipede: 168-200 (51.8 - 61.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

This means Scolipede has two free turns to set up substitutes and gain speed boosts. Of course it wouldn't be sitting behind a sub doing nothing, iron defense is a thing. Then Scolipede baton passes to Vaporeon, and what now?

252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. +2 252 HP / 252+ Def Vaporeon: 123-145 (26.5 - 31.2%) -- 15.4% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

4 SpA Vaporeon Scald vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Pinsir: 102-121 (37.5 - 44.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Not to mention that Vaporeon is faster than Pinsir now(obviously).

 

[Flechazo]

While I am against any ban, if we are going to have any limit to the number of Baton Passers, I would say that we should just require that at least one Pokemon on your team does not know Baton Pass. Baton Pass teams generally require all 6 Pokemon to be effective, so just limiting it to 5 would be good enough in my opinion. As for other bans, I personally think Stored Power + Baton Pass would be the least disruptive to other strategies and the most self-explanatory ban. Chain passing to a sweeper without Baton Pass is a gimmicky strategy, but one which should not be caught in the crossfire of an attempt to nerf defensive BP teams.

I agree. Stored Power is really ridiculous. At 400+ BP, the opponent really does not have a good chance to respond, especially with Hyper Voice Sylveon.

 

[Aquaslash]

Talonflame has a base 81 attack stat, I do not see how you could call it a wallbreaker. It's completely walled by Rotom-W, Heatran, hell even any physically defensive pokemon. Late game cleaning is what Talonflame does best, it doesn't have the raw power to break walls.

Let's say I lead with my favorite wallbreaker, Mega Pinsir, anticipating the ever so obvious Scolipede lead.

252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Quick Attack vs. 252 HP / 232 Def Scolipede: 168-200 (51.8 - 61.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

This means Scolipede has two free turns to set up substitutes and gain speed boosts. Of course it wouldn't be sitting behind a sub doing nothing, iron defense is a thing. Then Scolipede baton passes to Vaporeon, and what now?

252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. +2 252 HP / 252+ Def Vaporeon: 123-145 (26.5 - 31.2%) -- 15.4% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

4 SpA Vaporeon Scald vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Pinsir: 102-121 (37.5 - 44.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Not to mention that Vaporeon is faster than Pinsir now(obviously).

Well, seeing as you'd hit him before he puts up his sub and take him to half health, break his sub on the next hit as he does whatever, and then hit him again BEFORE he baton passes, you may have likely killed him before he does anything. If he's alive, its barely

 

[Dread Arceus]

So other than Scolibro is there anything that made Baton Pass substantially stronger this gen, or did people just realize that it can be threatening like Swagger and therefore, how do I put this delicately, are getting super butthurt about it?

To put his gently, nobody used Swagger or Baton Pass before, because they were honorable and didn't want to get their hands dirty with cheap tactics.
Now, you all fucking suck.
Look, this is a nerf, quit taking it like we're banning Espeon and the move Baton Pass. That won't happen. What this does is take an overly powerful playstyle, and makes it less powerful. Meaning, it requires actual skill to use, not just "hurr durr Mr. Mime naow".
If you love BP, you should welcome a nerf, so you can prove you're good with it, rather than show you can do the same thing my 4-year-old brother can do.
tl;dr: grow the fuck up, we're trying to make this game more competitive for all playstyles.
All this being said, I'd advocate for a ban in Baton Pass + Magic Bounce. This gives UU a new toy and OU a bit of a refresher; and while you still might have some troubles with BP, at least Taunt and Whirlwind are common, viable moves.

 

[Daniel Farmer]

Well, seeing as you'd hit him before he puts up his sub and take him to half health, break his sub on the next hit as he does whatever, and then hit him again BEFORE he baton passes, you may have likely killed him before he does anything. If he's alive, its barely

True, let's say it didn't have time to set up an iron defense. It still definitely had time to acquire 1 speed boost at the very least, and it can baton pass to Zapdos as Mega Pinsir breaks the sub. We all know that Pinsir can't touch Zapdos, the only viable moves to run are Return, Quick Attack, EQ, CC, X-Scissor(rare), and SD. Zapdos can immediately threaten Pinsir out, and pretty much get a free Agility/Charge or whatever it wants to do.

It's like a completely one sided game, for the first phase, you sit there and watch while they accumulate all their stat boosts. For the latter half, you sit there and get swept by an Espeon with +6 in all it stats. Yeah, that's very entertaining.

 

[Aquaslash]

Here's the thing, for the first few turns, no one on the BP team is a threat. Not sylveon, not zapdos, not scolopede, and certainly not espeon. This means that you can send out your favorite wall breaker and begin smashing. Without defense boosts, BP teams are actually very frail and will fall to pretty much any wall breaker worth using. Good mons like talonflame, lando-I, darmantian, and pretty much every mega not named venusaur (mega hera's a standout btw). If these are too mainstream for you, you can try more niche wallbreakers like Cloyster, Clawetzer, Nidoking, and so on. There are no shortage of OU viable wallbreakers folks, use them.

This can't be said enough. BP teams fold to really intense early game pressure. Mega Mawile in particular is a great answer to BP teams lacking the right coverage (which is most of them, since that's really only Zapdos and Gliscor) Here's a random calc

+2 252 SpA Espeon Stored Power (240 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Mawile: 407-479 (133.8 - 157.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
240 BP. This is 2 iron defenses, 3 speed boosts and two calm minds (at best SIX TURNS). I'm sorry, but if you sat there and let this happen, you have messed up.

Meanwhile, vs this very same Espeon:
+2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Sucker Punch vs. +4 4 HP / 0 Def Espeon: 332-392 (122 - 144.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Play Rough vs. +4 4 HP / 0 Def Espeon: 280-331 (102.9 - 121.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

In the time it took Espeon to get all this, not only did you have ample time to set up multiple SDs, but you had free roam to wail on pretty much the entire team and even hit Espeon as it comes in. You also hit scoli with an intimidate, so you cut back on his ability to really do anything to you.

It's like a completely one sided game, for the first phase, you sit there and watch while they accumulate all their stat boosts. For the latter half, you sit there and get swept by an Espeon with +6 in all it stats. Yeah, that's very entertaining.

That's gross overkill. Espeon doesn't need anywhere near that many to clean up a team. Plus, that takes a real long time to build up. Ample time for you to set up your own sweeper (preferably one with priority) or even land a stray status or get a phaze in. Espeon can't beat Dragon Tail, and the others can't beat roar/whirlwind.

Speaking of pinsir and talonflame. Talonflame OHKOs Scoli with a banded BB. If he had a sash, he'd be brought down to it before he could get any defense boosts up, and would then hit him before the baton pass comes in. As such, Talonflame forces either a different starter, or a hard switch into Zapdos or Jolteon, which has already stolen precious momentum from the team as now they don't have their prized speed boosts

 

[Flechazo]

+2 252 SpA Espeon Stored Power (240 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Mawile: 407-479 (133.8 - 157.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
240 BP. This is 2 iron defenses, 3 speed boosts and two calm minds (at best SIX TURNS). I'm sorry, but if you sat there and let this happen, you have messed up.

Meanwhile, vs this very same Espeon:
+2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Sucker Punch vs. +4 4 HP / 0 Def Espeon: 332-392 (122 - 144.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Play Rough vs. +4 4 HP / 0 Def Espeon: 280-331 (102.9 - 121.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

In the spirit of accuracy, Espeons on BP teams do not run 4 HP and 0 Def EV's. They have at least 252 HP EVs and 36 Def EVs (usually) with either a Calm or Bold nature. I do like what you're trying to say, however. The key to beating BP teams is early game pressure. If you let your opponent just accumulate boosts, you did something wrong, most likely starting with your lead selection.

 

[Aquaslash]

In the spirit of accuracy, Espeons on BP teams do not run 4 HP and 0 Def EV's. They have at least 252 HP EVs and 36 Def EVs (usually) with either a Calm or Bold nature. I do like what you're trying to say, however. The key to beating BP teams is early game pressure. If you let your opponent just accumulate boosts, you did something wrong, most likely starting with your lead selection.

This is different from the espeon I run, but all the same, I'll take it into account

+2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Sucker Punch vs. +4 252 HP / 36+ Def Espeon: 286-338 (85.6 - 101.1%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO

This is bold nature and the evs you specified. Still hurts a whole bunch, and this is assuming you were nice enough to only boost to +2 while they were mindlessly boosting. Espeon getting this high is really a worst case scenario though

 

[ItoI6]

mega-mawile is a terrible answer to baton pass because scolipede will set up iron defences right beside you then go to smeargle to spore or encore a swords dance. It can also go to vaporeon and just roar you while it has max def and a bunch of speed.

also zapdos takes care of flying spam pretty well.

baton pass has at least a check for pretty much everything and it shuts down stall it needs a complex nerf of limited baton passers on a team imo

 

[Flechazo]

Personally, I have found that a Choice Scarf Lave Plume or Magma Storm Heatran is a good answer to Baton Pass teams. One player really surprised me with this as the lead. I protected the first turn to grab a Speed boost; however, he was still faster than my Scolipede. He really destroyed my momentum for the rest of the match.

 

[16bit]

I think that just Espeon + Baton Pass and Speed boost + Baton Pass are the only real things threatening with Baton Pass. Those get banned, the rest i can find a counter for.

 

[Mango Smoothie]

I made a baton pass team today (to get a better idea of the playstyle), and found these things:
1) Espeon isn't really that useful except for Magic Bounce, and Smeargle can defog if you hate hazards that much.
2) The ease at which you can get defense boosts off is ridiculous. I used Mew with barrier, amnesia, roost, and BP (instead of Vaporeon) as a lead if scolipede wasn't going to cut it and it really just turned into me spamming the appropriate defense boosts and then roosting off the 26% damage that M-Pinsir at +4 was doing with Return. Once you have the defense boosts you're golden, and can do pretty much anything after Ingrain (not that hard to get with the defense&speed boosts).
3) Most games were decided around turn 4-6, when I either had the defense boosts or I had forgotten about infiltrator getting behind subs. I would have gone to say it is decided at turn 1, when they either properly predict my lead and can hit the right defenses or they do not which gives me a turn to sub/boost my defenses.
4) Adding Mew to the mix really makes you need essentially 4 pokemon: Scolipede (passive speed boosts, can sub up), Smeargle (whatever you want really), Togekiss (Nasty Plot and a Final Solution of sorts with Stored Power), and Mew (The Defenses) to either get to a PP-Stall fest with your opponent or rip them to shreds with whoever you end the chain with. The fact that Stored Power has no cap is also a problem, since without any sp attack boosts a 4EV togekiss take a decent bite out of supposed counters (granted its got +6 Sp/Defense and speed). If I had ran NP at the time it would've gotten worse since at +2 you take most of Chansey's health.

4 SpA Togekiss Stored Power (380 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Landorus-T: 382-450 (100 - 117.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
4 SpA Togekiss Stored Power (380 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Quagsire: 453-534 (114.9 - 135.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
4 SpA Togekiss Stored Power (380 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Thundurus: 385-453 (128.3 - 151%) -- guaranteed OHKO
4 SpA Togekiss Stored Power (380 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard Y: 283-334 (94.9 - 112%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO (Charizard is doing like 16-19% with a sun-boosted overheat)
4 SpA Togekiss Stored Power (380 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Landorus: 385-453 (120.3 - 141.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 4 SpA Togekiss Stored Power (420 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 450-530 (63.9 - 75.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO​

I threw pokemon together that I had heard about and had a fairly successful go with a team I had no idea how to play with, nor put much thought into. Baton Pass can easily turn into either PP-Stall or a complete sweep, and unless the opponent comes absolutely prepared with surefire counters (Murkrow) they are getting swept.

So now I think I can answer the questions at the beginning of the thread properly, having played both with and against BP teams.

• Is Baton Pass (with specific reference to full Baton Pass teams) a problem for the development of the metagame?

Full Baton Pass teams are a problem because the opposing player either (1) Rolls over and gives up since Mew can accumulate defensive boosts and Scolipede can get the speed/defense boosts faster than you can say "broken" or (2) Has packed some counter specifically for Baton Pass teams (post-set up) that is nigh useless against other teams, and even that can fail.​

• If so, what elements, in particular, do you think are pushing Baton Pass over the edge?

The ease at which BP teams can set up their defenses/unbreakable subs, get out of counters at no cost to the boosts, and Stored Power getting ridiculous amounts of power are what I feel makes Full BP over the edge. Even in shorter chains this can get ridiculous since mew getting to +6 on both defenses adds 240 BP to Stored Power, which isn't very hard to get at all. You can then just pass this to scolipede, protect&sub until you get enough speed, and then just spam Stored Power/Appropriate coverage until you kill everything.​

• Do you believe that banning individual Pokémon (such as Espeon/Scolipede) would make Baton Pass manageable?

It isn't really one pokemon throwing BP over the edge either. It is the conjunction of all the team that really makes BP near unbeatable. Mew can't really do much with the Amnesia/Barrier set, and as a stand-alone sweeper Scolipede is too frail to use the +6 speed, but that Togekiss sure benefits from the unbreakable defenses and ridiculous speed (not to mention base 300+ stored power).​

• Would you support a blanket ban on the move Baton Pass?

That would completely kill Baton Pass teams, but also kill some pokemon usage outside of BP teams. As has been stated dry passes to evade pursuit and short-passes aren't really that bad since it is generally one SD or something like that, rarely ever are people passing +6 in both defenses AND speed outside of BP. Then again you could probably have similar success running Quiver Dance Smeargle with Baton Pass to a stored power user, but I digress.​

• Would you support the introduction of complex bans (like Pokémon X+Pokémon Y on the same team)? Feel free to suggest more forms of complex bans, of course.

I can get behind a few Complex Bans here. (1) Banning Speed Boost+BP, honestly the ability to just accumulate speed without much risk is just painful, especially since your opponent can't do much (only feint) against your protect which pretty much gives you an automatic +1, then the sub once you outspeed most pokemon gets you to +2, and so on until you outspeed the entire tier. (2) Limiting numberof BP users on a team to 1-2 Quite honestly this may seem like overkill to some of you, but just think about it: All you really need is Mew and Scolipede and you can get +6 in Sp/Defense, Attack, and speed within the span of relatively few turns. Only having 2 BP-ers makes them much more valuable, and therefore much more big of a deal if they die. (3) Banning Ingrain+BP since after Smeargle passes ingrain along you can't do much to rid the boosts bar Haze (which I hope has already been established as kind of meh in the majority of the OU environment), and being able to Roar/Whirlwind out a BP chain would make most teams more readily prepared for them since those are reasonable responses to setup and good ways to rack up hazard damage (both useful things). Lastly (4) Banning Speed Boost+BP+Magic Bounce since now people will either have to choose between reliable speed or not having to worry about taunt/hazards.​

 

[Aragorn the King]

Actually I feel as a last resort: Ban Scolipede+Baton Pass
This is the most reasonable as not only does it allow baton pass teams to carry on, albeit nerfed or having to use ninjask,it is more handleable

I don't like that solution, to be honest. Scolipede using a quick pass strategy is totally viable, not cheap, and is relatively easy to beat.