So other than Scolibro is there anything that made Baton Pass substantially stronger this gen, or did people just realize that it can be threatening like Swagger and therefore, how do I put this delicately, are getting super butthurt about it?
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Baton Pass - its role in the metagame and possible solutions to nerf full Baton Pass chains
- Thread starter haunter
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scolipede>>>>>>>>>>>>>ninjask+fairies blocking dragon tail
I think it's the same case of swagger in the sense of new pokemon who made it slightly more viable, mostly speed boost scolipede. It's also a trend thing, more people are annoyed by baton pass because everybody is using it.
I don't mind people wanting to ban something because they are annoyed (heck, I believe this was the reason people bothered to ban swagger in the firat place, and the rest was just a justification), but the ban has to be backed by rational arguments. And while swagger was clearly uncompetitive, I'm just not seeing the same thing with baton pass.
Unlike most of the bans we've ever done, this is a playstyle that does not bank on luck. It is a strategy that has actual elements of skill. Therefore IMO baton pass should not be banned
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If i ever want to dabble with BP is because i don't want the stress of playing with skill or not, as matches are decided the moment you look at the team previews. Maybe you have 1-2 50/50 choices against certain teams, or you are hard countered from the get go, but other than that it's is a formulaic set of 100% safe choices to victory.
Because drawing straws before clicking the find battle button is not skill
If i ever want to dabble with BP is because i don't want the stress of playing with skill or not, as matches are decided the moment you look at the team previews. Maybe you have 1-2 50/50 choices against certain teams, or you are hard countered from the get go, but other than that it's is a formulaic set of 100% safe choices to victory.
Because drawing straws before clicking the find battle button is not skill
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WHY IS THIS NOT ENOUGH TO END THE DEBATE RIGHT NOW
Because as much as I hate to admit it, it's not true. See the SmashPass and Drizzle + Swift Swim bans in Gen 5 - nothing luck-based about those.
Except none of these are "hard counters". Snatch, like Haze and Perish Song, have extremely poor and limited distribution, and even the Pokemon running Haze like Quagsire are niche-based.
"A Counter must be able to both switch into the Pokémon it's supposed to counter, with little to no risk to itself, and also pose an immediate threat to said Pokémon."
Pokemon outside of Priority/Prankster are outsped due to the nature of trivially acquired Speed Boosts. There exists literally 1 Prankster Haze user, Murkrow, which isn't viable in the OU metagame. The few Pokemon to run these gimmicky moves are suboptimal sets, for a specific purpose.
And a single 'hard counter' is not sufficient. It's intrinsically restrictive to teambuilding, just as bad as forcing players to run Slowbro as a dedicated counter to Blaziken (which still falls to mixed variations). A single hard counter also still exacerbates the matchup component - you either hinder your team with a dedicated counter to a specific archetype and gimmick, or you auto-lose most matches vs specific archetype/gimmick.
They're not banning certain abilities or overpowered moves. They're arguing to ban a entire playstyle
Not necessarily. Most people only want to restrict it so it's manageable for a standard team to beat.
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We don't want Baton Pass banned because it's annoying or infuriating. Most of us do not even advocate a blanket ban, as Baton Pass by itself isn't broken or uncompetitive.
If everyone must run the same, specific counter for 1 gimmick, do you not agree it is unhealthy for the metagame?
- Is Baton Pass (with specific reference to full Baton Pass teams) a problem for the development of the metagame?
- Do you believe that banning individual Pokémon (such as Espeon/Scolipede) would make Baton Pass manageable?
- Would you support a blanket ban on the move Baton Pass?
In bold because nobody reads unbolded stuff: Ban Baton Pass on Espeon
When people say skillless, they're always referring to actual gameplay, not teambuilding skill. Even then, I'd argue that the skill required to build a Baton Pass team is relatively non-existent, and the difference between a bad Baton Pass team (mandatory Scoli/Espeon and then 3 random other passers and a receiver) and a good one is pretty minor compared to other types of playstyle. If you're seeing a lot of Perish Song, sure, use Mr Mime. If you're seeing a lot of Clear Smog, emphasize Substitutes etc. That's pretty much the extent of the "skill" involved in Baton Pass teambuilding.
But the definition of a gimmick is a strategy that's bad. If this is bad why are you advocating nerfing it
I feel that it isn't a stumbling point for development simply because it's not considered to be a "real" style of team and isn't seen as often. That said, a well built BP team, aka the only one you'll ever see, is nearly impossible to shut down without some sort of surprise element, such as TrickScarf, Taunt on an all
It would. Without Espeon, Whirlwind and Roar would be far more useful than they are now, and Taunt could easily shut down a chain. Without Scolipede, BP loses that early game momentum and has to go back to Ninjask, who isn't nearly as good at grabbing boosts, and never was difficult enough for anyone to defeat before.
Not really. Quick passing isn't broken, though it certainly can be dangerous. The actual problem boils down to the Pokemon and their abilities rather than the move.
That would work better, I think. Something like only 3 BPers means they have to pick and choose what beats them instead of being able to handle absolutely everything, or banning Espeon (the biggest problem, imo) from being on the same team as Scolipede would work as well.
Probably because it isn't a good argument. The amount of skill required to grab a bunch of speed and defense with Scolipede and Baton Pass to whatever you need to after that isn't that difficult because there isn't really any element of prediction involved.
Its worth mentioning that Swift Swim spam was considered a playstyle until it got banned. Politoed + Kingdra + Kabutops + Ferrothorn + two fillers was viable and used all the time back then.
But seriously of you really want to nerf full baton pass chains, please just not allow 3 or more baton passer in the same team. Espeon uses baton pass to escape pursuit and Scolipede can pass speed to a slow sweeper
Quagsire loses to baton pass. Do you really think that it can take stab 160 bp attacks from Espeon? Yes, I'm aware of unaware, but that doesn't stop it.
While I am no expert in the OU meta, I am pretty knowledgeable about Pokemon in general.
In terms of baton pass, I think nothing drastic should be done. If a nerf is deemed necessary, I think Baton Pass should be limited to one or two pokemon on a team.
The reason why I do not think Baton Pass Teams should be crippled by a nerf is because Baton Passing is a strategy. While I do not agree with the playstyle, that is up for the player using BP to decide. I do not like using Baton Pass in the same sense that I do not like full stall, it's just boring.
Baton Passing does require a fair amount of prediction, at least the same amount as any other standard team. People tend to believe it's just simple, click a boost, then baton pass, but it does not work like that. Lead Match Up is one of the most important aspects for Baton Pass Teams. If the opposing player were to lead off with something such as Sableye, you have to choose whether to make the prediction of taunt or knock off/Foul play and switch into Espeon, thus potentially taking a large hit.
In addition, the player using Baton Pass has to figure out which boost are more appropriate to prioritize. If, for example (read that again, an EXAMPLE), one were to have a Vaporeon ready to get some Acid Armors up, and the opponent has a Victini, it would be pretty safe to assume you could get an Acid Armor up, then BP to dodge the bolt strike. What if the Victini is Special and pops the Vap with an Energy Ball/Tbolt?
Baton Passing, in general, control the match generally due to match up (Things that shut down BP are Trick Users ((iirc it cannot be blocked by magic bounce/coat))), but I would argue that double switching and using U-Turn/Vswitch can do the same.
Baton Passing does take skill, and because of that, it should not be banned because the primary source of winning does not derive from luck. This is very unlike Swagger which is banned because it relies on on confusion. Just a note, I am not saying luck is not a factor, I think we have all used Stone Edge.
In UU, I make an effort to run Roar/WW on EVERY standard team in order to phase out BP teams, but in OU, I understand Espeon exists. For that, I feel teams just need to be better prepared for Baton Pass Teams.
I hate Baton Pass Teams the same way I hate Stall Teams, but it is a real type of playstyle, and we should respect players that choose to play that way. I believe BP is a playstyle, so one just has to be able to have things to handle it, I find it no different than Stall, Offense, or Balanced teams.
In terms of baton pass, I think nothing drastic should be done. If a nerf is deemed necessary, I think Baton Pass should be limited to one or two pokemon on a team.
The reason why I do not think Baton Pass Teams should be crippled by a nerf is because Baton Passing is a strategy. While I do not agree with the playstyle, that is up for the player using BP to decide. I do not like using Baton Pass in the same sense that I do not like full stall, it's just boring.
Baton Passing does require a fair amount of prediction, at least the same amount as any other standard team. People tend to believe it's just simple, click a boost, then baton pass, but it does not work like that. Lead Match Up is one of the most important aspects for Baton Pass Teams. If the opposing player were to lead off with something such as Sableye, you have to choose whether to make the prediction of taunt or knock off/Foul play and switch into Espeon, thus potentially taking a large hit.
In addition, the player using Baton Pass has to figure out which boost are more appropriate to prioritize. If, for example (read that again, an EXAMPLE), one were to have a Vaporeon ready to get some Acid Armors up, and the opponent has a Victini, it would be pretty safe to assume you could get an Acid Armor up, then BP to dodge the bolt strike. What if the Victini is Special and pops the Vap with an Energy Ball/Tbolt?
Baton Passing, in general, control the match generally due to match up (Things that shut down BP are Trick Users ((iirc it cannot be blocked by magic bounce/coat))), but I would argue that double switching and using U-Turn/Vswitch can do the same.
Baton Passing does take skill, and because of that, it should not be banned because the primary source of winning does not derive from luck. This is very unlike Swagger which is banned because it relies on on confusion. Just a note, I am not saying luck is not a factor, I think we have all used Stone Edge.
In UU, I make an effort to run Roar/WW on EVERY standard team in order to phase out BP teams, but in OU, I understand Espeon exists. For that, I feel teams just need to be better prepared for Baton Pass Teams.
I hate Baton Pass Teams the same way I hate Stall Teams, but it is a real type of playstyle, and we should respect players that choose to play that way. I believe BP is a playstyle, so one just has to be able to have things to handle it, I find it no different than Stall, Offense, or Balanced teams.
Well, the idea would be to wear the BP team down first with repeated powerful attacks while he keeps accumulating boosts, thinking he's gonna sweep you at some point. That's when you bring in Quagsire and Haze. I assure you that many players will ragequit after their severely damaged team has to try and start the chain all over again (because they know they can't anymore, they also know you have Haze regardless). Comments like these show that people here have no idea what Baton Pass is even like. All I see is theorymon all over the place. This is not directed at you specifically but a lot of people commenting on here.
Send quagsire in on anything that isn't espeon
I made a post about this earlier but no one responded to it lol.
Gist of it was: Swift Swim was not an overpowered ability. Drizzle was (arguably) not an over powered ability. Kingdra and friends were not overpowered Pokemon. However, powerful Swift Swimmers, when used with Drizzle, were overpowered. They were faster than everything
But I agree with you; "ban an entire playstyle" is a poor choice. Drizzle+Swift Swim ban solved a problem with offensive rain teams, but it didn't get rid of offensive rain teams, it just made them manageable since they couldn't just spam SPECS KINGDRA AND KABUTOPS IN RAIN LEL.
If a complex ban is to be made, since it's agreed that banning Espeon or whatever isn't an option, it should be a ban that nerfs BP teams to a satisfactory point, not one that utterly demolishes it as strategy as a "no more than three BP users on a team" rule would.
Why should one be forced to use Quagsire just to stop BP teams? If there's only way to counter/stop it and every team has to use that one specific way, specifically the move Haze, then I think it's unhealthy.
How would you feel about "Banning a team with Baton Pass from having Pokemon more than two of the following abilities: Speed Boost, Magic Bounce, Soundproof"?
No, the definition of a gimmick isn't a strategy that's bad. Gimmicks are often stigmatized as "bad" due to specific niche and condition based play that may or may not be extremely predictable and easily countered. The definition of gimmick, or novelty, is a "different, unique, unusual strategy". Thus, Trick Room is a gimmick, likewise with Baton Pass, neither of which are bad.
I advocate 'nerfing' Baton Pass in conjunction with Speed Boost Scolipede and Magic Bounce Espeon, because it removes autonomy, with only 1 or 2 obscure and niche counters, and stifles the development of certain archetypes, and restricts teambuilding and gameplay.
Baton Pass is at the top of the ladder, and has firmly proven regular Taunt, or even the rarer Prankster Taunt, is not a hard counter, nor does it shut Baton Pass down.
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Please don't delete this, and ban me Haunter. I am trying to be a good citizen.
I personally found that one of the easier ways of beating baton pass is fly spam with Pinsir, Talonflame, or any other Pokemon that learns a powerful flying move.
Literally no baton pass team runs mega scizor with iron defense, which is literally the only way to beat fly-spam.
I have found out, that the only way the opposing player
Can win, is to predict really well,
On flying Pokemon vs. smeargle, and if you predict the spore, and go into another Pokemon, to take it, they can just as easily baton pass into their physical wall (usually vaporeon) and set up an acid armor. The only way the opposing player can win at this point, is to have some extremely powerful special attacker (LO lando for an example) with some kind of attack to get rid of sylveon.
This is just a post to say one of the easier ways to beat baton pass, I am not saying that this strategy is not broken (if you run stall, you're utterly fucked) but it can be won against with a consistent strategy, which is contrary to the previous Pokemon / strategies that have been merged before.
I personally found that one of the easier ways of beating baton pass is fly spam with Pinsir, Talonflame, or any other Pokemon that learns a powerful flying move.
Literally no baton pass team runs mega scizor with iron defense, which is literally the only way to beat fly-spam.
I have found out, that the only way the opposing player
Can win, is to predict really well,
On flying Pokemon vs. smeargle, and if you predict the spore, and go into another Pokemon, to take it, they can just as easily baton pass into their physical wall (usually vaporeon) and set up an acid armor. The only way the opposing player can win at this point, is to have some extremely powerful special attacker (LO lando for an example) with some kind of attack to get rid of sylveon.
This is just a post to say one of the easier ways to beat baton pass, I am not saying that this strategy is not broken (if you run stall, you're utterly fucked) but it can be won against with a consistent strategy, which is contrary to the previous Pokemon / strategies that have been merged before.
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