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BH Balanced Hackmons
- Thread starter XxLazzerpenguinxX
- Start date
time for a long rambling post about nothing in particular now that I’m already out of bh open (rigged). Also I don’t have replays for any of this because I never save them
first I want to talk about pangoro.
skadoosh (Pangoro) @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Poison Heal
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Throat Chop
- Close Combat
- Spiky Shield
- Octolock
you might be saying “just use Zamazenta lmao” and you are correct. Pangoro’s niche is being a dark type, which is “important” to check Lunala locked into photon or moongeist, and making it so ghosts don’t switch into your octolock. Works because there are like 0 defensive fairies outside of regular zacian. PH is actually good in order for you to not get chipped down against defense over a long game. Throat chop > knock for consistent damage when opponent is trapped.
Zacian @ Pixie Plate
Ability: Pixilate
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Extreme Speed
- Rapid Spin
- Knock Off
- U-turn
next we got what I use to improof skadoosh, utility pixilate zacian. Nobody is running dazzling so espeed is great for revenging things that have been worn down, assuming they don’t Dmax. Against melm and other walls knock and get the fuck out of there cause u ain’t killing them. rapid spin is stronger than you would think
Zacian-Crowned @ Rusted Sword
Ability: Intrepid Sword
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Rash Nature
- Double Iron Bash
- Blue Flare
- Volt Switch
- Stealth Rock
+SpA zac-c is actually sick cause it 2HKOs melm after any amount of chip. You can still bluff +Spe to force things out that you would kill, and you still outspeed max speed etern. against seismi set up rocks and leave. You can use sunsteel dib if you’re a coward and don’t want to coin flip for flinches.
Oranguru @ Assault Vest
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD
Quiet Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Volt Switch
- Rapid Spin
- Photon Geyser
- Knock Off
the only true Lunala/necrozma-d-w switchin. That’s it, that’s all it does. Regenvest so you can consistently switch in over the course of a match. Also it monkey
Necrozma-Dawn-Wings @ Flame Orb
Ability: Quick Feet
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Moongeist Beam
- Photon Geyser
- Focus Blast
- Nasty Plot
self-imposterproof sweeper that sucks cause it’s still slower than zacian-c and pult when burned. Dicks on balance once those are removed though.
now my thoughts on what should be banned or not
- already gone into this, ban this bih
dmax - while I like some of the strategy that comes with it, it makes revenge killing really hard and I think might be unhealthy. Need more time to think on it.
beak/rend/vcreate - the 170+ BP moves are to strong I think, and the reasons have already been discussed here so I won’t go into it. However, I don’t think they should be tiered the same, my idea is for one suspect with 3 seperate votes for all the moves.
octolock - as much as I like this move and octopi i think it is probably unhealthy for the metagame. Being able to trap and remove pretty much anything in one slot without very specific counter play is probably too good. The main set is normapult w/ entrain/taunt/octo/multi-attack, which needs to be played around literally perfectly if you dont have like bounce ttar, and sometimes you still lose anyway. ban this move.
sorry for the long and rambling post, that is all
e: forgot to mention dib ban it it’s uncompetitive
first I want to talk about pangoro.
skadoosh (Pangoro) @ Toxic OrbAbility: Poison Heal
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Throat Chop
- Close Combat
- Spiky Shield
- Octolock
you might be saying “just use Zamazenta lmao” and you are correct. Pangoro’s niche is being a dark type, which is “important” to check Lunala locked into photon or moongeist, and making it so ghosts don’t switch into your octolock. Works because there are like 0 defensive fairies outside of regular zacian. PH is actually good in order for you to not get chipped down against defense over a long game. Throat chop > knock for consistent damage when opponent is trapped.
Zacian @ Pixie PlateAbility: Pixilate
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Extreme Speed
- Rapid Spin
- Knock Off
- U-turn
next we got what I use to improof skadoosh, utility pixilate zacian. Nobody is running dazzling so espeed is great for revenging things that have been worn down, assuming they don’t Dmax. Against melm and other walls knock and get the fuck out of there cause u ain’t killing them. rapid spin is stronger than you would think
Zacian-Crowned @ Rusted SwordAbility: Intrepid Sword
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Rash Nature
- Double Iron Bash
- Blue Flare
- Volt Switch
- Stealth Rock
+SpA zac-c is actually sick cause it 2HKOs melm after any amount of chip. You can still bluff +Spe to force things out that you would kill, and you still outspeed max speed etern. against seismi set up rocks and leave. You can use sunsteel dib if you’re a coward and don’t want to coin flip for flinches.
Oranguru @ Assault VestAbility: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD
Quiet Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Volt Switch
- Rapid Spin
- Photon Geyser
- Knock Off
the only true Lunala/necrozma-d-w switchin. That’s it, that’s all it does. Regenvest so you can consistently switch in over the course of a match. Also it monkey
Necrozma-Dawn-Wings @ Flame OrbAbility: Quick Feet
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Moongeist Beam
- Photon Geyser
- Focus Blast
- Nasty Plot
self-imposterproof sweeper that sucks cause it’s still slower than zacian-c and pult when burned. Dicks on balance once those are removed though.
now my thoughts on what should be banned or not
- already gone into this, ban this bihdmax - while I like some of the strategy that comes with it, it makes revenge killing really hard and I think might be unhealthy. Need more time to think on it.
beak/rend/vcreate - the 170+ BP moves are to strong I think, and the reasons have already been discussed here so I won’t go into it. However, I don’t think they should be tiered the same, my idea is for one suspect with 3 seperate votes for all the moves. octolock - as much as I like this move sorry for the long and rambling post, that is all
e: forgot to mention dib ban it it’s uncompetitive
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According to the Gen 8 Pure Hackmons thread:
The return of Zacian-C spam? 2 Zamazenta-Cs on half of teams? I've prodded the research thread for confirmation simply because it'll completely shake up BH all over again.24 days into January. I got some news
So as it turns out, there's been a sudden change in the metagame.
The statement above is outdated. Zacian and Zamazenta in their crowned formes have recently been proven usable without any item or ability restrictions! Cheers, we can do more with these formes!
its not getting added immediately. wait lol
Zacian-C has been freed, and I am strongly in favor of a quickban of it. Some reasons for that below:
1. Limited Zacian-c is already a huge threat. The standard four attacks set runs the following: Double Iron Bash / Sunsteel Strike, Earthquake / Bolt Beak, V-Create, and U-Turn / Volt Switch. Surprise sets can opt for Shell Smash instead of a pivot move, which can surprise and defeat something like FC Melmetal after a little chip with V-Create (it does about 90%). Power Whip can also be ran to OHKO Seismatoad, but that's all it hits. Double Iron Bash has the extra feature of a 51% flinch chance, which can screw over otherwise reliable checks, but this is actually only a minor problem since it only has 8 PP that can be used.
Switchins include: FC Seismatoad (watch for Power Whip), FC Melmetal, Primordial Sea Corvuknight (loses to Bolt Beak), Primordial Sea Ferrothorn (can switch in but must run a Protect move or it risks being flinched down by Double Iron Bash), FC Eternatus (2hkoed by Sunsteel Strike). Checks need to be able outspeed Zacian-C (Choice Scarf users must have at least 90 base Speed to do this), and hit it extremely hard thanks to its excellent defensive stats and typing. Shell Smash sets can turn these checks on their heads though.
Now with a free item and ability, this mon becomes impossible to deal with. A Banded Intrepid Sword set will 2hKO Seismatoad on the switch with Sunsteel Strike (51-62%), and the huge choice of moves means that Improofing it isn't that difficult since you actually know what set it's running whereas opponents don't know, and have to take a risky switchin with Imposter. If a Band set isn't to your liking, try a Shell Smash set. You can run all sorts of abilities, from Simple to Technician to Serene Grace. Plenty of items are also useable, including Life Orb (which invalidates a lot of those switchins all on its own), White Herb, Focus Sash, or Safety Goggles + Spore. I know because I tried and played against these variations back when it was legal, and it was pretty ridiculous. Playing against it was pretty much a guessing game. There have not been any significant meta shifts to make me believe that it will be any different now.
Another problem that this will accentuate is the Species Spam issue. Freed Zacian-C is undoubtedly the best mon in the metagame, and there would be no reason not to run multiple of them on your team.
TLDR: Quick ban this please before the next round of BH Open starts. This needs to happen and soon!
1. Limited Zacian-c is already a huge threat. The standard four attacks set runs the following: Double Iron Bash / Sunsteel Strike, Earthquake / Bolt Beak, V-Create, and U-Turn / Volt Switch. Surprise sets can opt for Shell Smash instead of a pivot move, which can surprise and defeat something like FC Melmetal after a little chip with V-Create (it does about 90%). Power Whip can also be ran to OHKO Seismatoad, but that's all it hits. Double Iron Bash has the extra feature of a 51% flinch chance, which can screw over otherwise reliable checks, but this is actually only a minor problem since it only has 8 PP that can be used.
Switchins include: FC Seismatoad (watch for Power Whip), FC Melmetal, Primordial Sea Corvuknight (loses to Bolt Beak), Primordial Sea Ferrothorn (can switch in but must run a Protect move or it risks being flinched down by Double Iron Bash), FC Eternatus (2hkoed by Sunsteel Strike). Checks need to be able outspeed Zacian-C (Choice Scarf users must have at least 90 base Speed to do this), and hit it extremely hard thanks to its excellent defensive stats and typing. Shell Smash sets can turn these checks on their heads though.
Now with a free item and ability, this mon becomes impossible to deal with. A Banded Intrepid Sword set will 2hKO Seismatoad on the switch with Sunsteel Strike (51-62%), and the huge choice of moves means that Improofing it isn't that difficult since you actually know what set it's running whereas opponents don't know, and have to take a risky switchin with Imposter. If a Band set isn't to your liking, try a Shell Smash set. You can run all sorts of abilities, from Simple to Technician to Serene Grace. Plenty of items are also useable, including Life Orb (which invalidates a lot of those switchins all on its own), White Herb, Focus Sash, or Safety Goggles + Spore. I know because I tried and played against these variations back when it was legal, and it was pretty ridiculous. Playing against it was pretty much a guessing game. There have not been any significant meta shifts to make me believe that it will be any different now.
Another problem that this will accentuate is the Species Spam issue. Freed Zacian-C is undoubtedly the best mon in the metagame, and there would be no reason not to run multiple of them on your team.
TLDR: Quick ban this please before the next round of BH Open starts. This needs to happen and soon!
Tagging off of Skylake’s post I’d like to give my thoughts on the freed doggos.
Quickban. ASAP. A lot of these points have already been outlined so I won’t harp on them for too long but Zacian is absolutely broken with a free item slot. Even not freed, Zacian is at least an A+ pokemon in my eyes, and you could probably make an argument that it is the best mon in the meta. Now open up that item slot. Even with Melmetal and all of the Fur Coat mons right now, this meta simply doesn’t have the tools to deal with Zacian and keeping it freed would warp the meta entirely around its use.
Zamazenta has gotten a lot of shit for being terrible compared to Zacian but here I think it will be viable without being overbearing. The biggest thing I see in Zamazenta is a steel type with better special bulk. Considering our best specially defensive steels right now are Solgaleo and Escavalier, that alone should give Zamazenta good reason to be used.
However, its other attributes help it out even more. Its attack stat of 130 is definitely not bad, and could lead to some offensive sets; however, regular Zamazenta might be better at that role due to it surpassing the coveted 130 speed tier and Darm. That fighting typing is definitely very nice as well, considering it can dish out good damage with STAB Body Press even without Cotton Guard shenanigans. Overall, Melmetal should definitely remain as the best steel but Zamazenta definitely should have a niche.
Quickban. ASAP. A lot of these points have already been outlined so I won’t harp on them for too long but Zacian is absolutely broken with a free item slot. Even not freed, Zacian is at least an A+ pokemon in my eyes, and you could probably make an argument that it is the best mon in the meta. Now open up that item slot. Even with Melmetal and all of the Fur Coat mons right now, this meta simply doesn’t have the tools to deal with Zacian and keeping it freed would warp the meta entirely around its use.
Zamazenta has gotten a lot of shit for being terrible compared to Zacian but here I think it will be viable without being overbearing. The biggest thing I see in Zamazenta is a steel type with better special bulk. Considering our best specially defensive steels right now are Solgaleo and Escavalier, that alone should give Zamazenta good reason to be used.
However, its other attributes help it out even more. Its attack stat of 130 is definitely not bad, and could lead to some offensive sets; however, regular Zamazenta might be better at that role due to it surpassing the coveted 130 speed tier and Darm. That fighting typing is definitely very nice as well, considering it can dish out good damage with STAB Body Press even without Cotton Guard shenanigans. Overall, Melmetal should definitely remain as the best steel but Zamazenta definitely should have a niche.
The results of the Shedinja suspect are out with the decision to ban it. This is already implemented on PS!
The Banlist has been updated accordingly
The Banlist has been updated accordingly
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It's also boosted by Tough Claws for some reason, despite Bulbapedia not listing it as being affected by the ability.
Yeah please quick ban Zacian-C. This thing is like last gen's Primal Groudon except even better. I already thought Rusted Sword Zacian was one of the best Pokemon there is in the meta. It doesn't take someone skilled at BH to know that Zacian-C is completely batshit overpowered. I'll restate: It has the highest Attack stat tied with Kyurem-Black, and the second highest Speed, being only outsped by Ninjask (and Scarf users like DGZ...). It even has the luxury of having good bulk and being able to run recovery viably in its 4th moveslot.
I definitely think Zamazenta-C is a positive addition to the meta and should result in some interesting sets.
I definitely think Zamazenta-C is a positive addition to the meta and should result in some interesting sets.
Double Iron Bash is uncompetitive, but its low PP and weakness to Rocky Helmet make me think it's probably not also quick ban worthy unlike Zacian-C. I'd agree with it if that's what others think, though.
Darmanitan-Galar-Zen is absolutely fucking insane. Even better than I originally thought, and I got suspect reqs with it. I'm not quite sure if it's banworthy, but it's probably close.
I don't agree with a V-create ban like some others have stated. There are tools to deal with it, and I don't think Mold Breaker will have as much incentive to be run with Shedinja banned.
Dragapult is still a shitmon and fortunately people are starting to catch up to that. I've seen it increasingly less as of lately.
Ice Scales is pretty great but I've been seeing so little use from Regenerator. I wonder if Regenvest or Regenband sets are still any good.
Solgaleo and Necrozma-DM are both disappointments, I've been trying them a lot and neither of them have really lived up to expectation unlike Melmetal. Even in the Special Defense department, I think Solgaleo will be replaced by Zamazenta-C.
Offensive Eternatus is really good. I've admittedly underestimated how well it can do myself. This mon is really unpredictable since it can run both offensive and defensive sets viably.
Tyranitar is disappointing and bordering on shitmon status for me. Defensive Rock-type in a meta with a ton of Steel-types, and Ground-types and Ground-type coverage to break said Steel-types, I thought Tyranitar would originally be pretty solid, but it's not very good. I also don't think there's any good Dark-type Pokemon in this meta. I don't exactly like Mandibuzz either. I know Lunala is a frightening mon to take on with Specs Moongeist, but like... I just don't see Tyranitar being good at anything but walling Lunala. That assumes Lunala isn't also running Fighting-type coverage then well Tyranitar is out of luck.
I've seen a lot of use from Primordial Sea compared to Flash Fire. I've grown to like Flash Fire more because it can block Will-o-Wisp (while I can burn Pokemon under Primsea easily). Also a lot of players will use Fire-type moves not expecting Flash Fire, but that's admittedly kinda lowish ladder stuff. I know Primordial Sea blocks Mold Breaker Fire-types, but I haven't seen very many of them as of lately.
I think fish beak are both overpowered. It's too difficult to wall both strong Electric-type and Water-type moves. Let alone the mechanics being too difficult to handle.
Golisopod is a cool PH/pivot mon. It's got deceptively good physical Defense. It can stay alive for a good while while offering a lot of utility. It's a slow pivot, can set or remove hazards, burns and deals okay damage with Scald, and has just the right resists to allow it to stall out certain Pokemon.
Darmanitan-Galar-Zen is absolutely fucking insane. Even better than I originally thought, and I got suspect reqs with it. I'm not quite sure if it's banworthy, but it's probably close.
I don't agree with a V-create ban like some others have stated. There are tools to deal with it, and I don't think Mold Breaker will have as much incentive to be run with Shedinja banned.
Dragapult is still a shitmon and fortunately people are starting to catch up to that. I've seen it increasingly less as of lately.
Ice Scales is pretty great but I've been seeing so little use from Regenerator. I wonder if Regenvest or Regenband sets are still any good.
Solgaleo and Necrozma-DM are both disappointments, I've been trying them a lot and neither of them have really lived up to expectation unlike Melmetal. Even in the Special Defense department, I think Solgaleo will be replaced by Zamazenta-C.
Offensive Eternatus is really good. I've admittedly underestimated how well it can do myself. This mon is really unpredictable since it can run both offensive and defensive sets viably.
Tyranitar is disappointing and bordering on shitmon status for me. Defensive Rock-type in a meta with a ton of Steel-types, and Ground-types and Ground-type coverage to break said Steel-types, I thought Tyranitar would originally be pretty solid, but it's not very good. I also don't think there's any good Dark-type Pokemon in this meta. I don't exactly like Mandibuzz either. I know Lunala is a frightening mon to take on with Specs Moongeist, but like... I just don't see Tyranitar being good at anything but walling Lunala. That assumes Lunala isn't also running Fighting-type coverage then well Tyranitar is out of luck.
I've seen a lot of use from Primordial Sea compared to Flash Fire. I've grown to like Flash Fire more because it can block Will-o-Wisp (while I can burn Pokemon under Primsea easily). Also a lot of players will use Fire-type moves not expecting Flash Fire, but that's admittedly kinda lowish ladder stuff. I know Primordial Sea blocks Mold Breaker Fire-types, but I haven't seen very many of them as of lately.
I think fish beak are both overpowered. It's too difficult to wall both strong Electric-type and Water-type moves. Let alone the mechanics being too difficult to handle.
Golisopod is a cool PH/pivot mon. It's got deceptively good physical Defense. It can stay alive for a good while while offering a lot of utility. It's a slow pivot, can set or remove hazards, burns and deals okay damage with Scald, and has just the right resists to allow it to stall out certain Pokemon.
RIP Shedinja. Forgive them, for they know not what they do.
We think that Double Iron Bash and Zacian-Crowned are both potentially worthy of quick bans. We see the recent discussion and would like to hear more of people’s thoughts on both of these.
My brief thoughts on both:
Double Iron Bash is uncompetitive. It has high base power, an extremely high flinch rate, and no immunities. Only having 8 PP and being punishable by Rocky Helmet damage are really the only drawbacks, but even these can be played around.
Zacian-Crowned is extremely hard to prepare for now that it can pick from any ability and useful items. Most of these abilities and items nullify what were previously solid checks to it when it was restricted, like Fur Coat Seismitoad. I agree that we just don’t have the right tools to deal with this mon reliably.
We think that Double Iron Bash and Zacian-Crowned are both potentially worthy of quick bans. We see the recent discussion and would like to hear more of people’s thoughts on both of these.
My brief thoughts on both:
Double Iron Bash is uncompetitive. It has high base power, an extremely high flinch rate, and no immunities. Only having 8 PP and being punishable by Rocky Helmet damage are really the only drawbacks, but even these can be played around.
Zacian-Crowned is extremely hard to prepare for now that it can pick from any ability and useful items. Most of these abilities and items nullify what were previously solid checks to it when it was restricted, like Fur Coat Seismitoad. I agree that we just don’t have the right tools to deal with this mon reliably.
on the topic of banning
ban double iron bash and zacian. or I'm going to stab somebody I swear to god
ban double iron bash and zacian. or I'm going to stab somebody I swear to god
I’m definitely in favour of quickbanning both Zacian-C and Double Iron Bash.
Big sword dog has extremely limited defensive counterplay, is very difficult to check offensively, and is tremendously versatile. It’s just too much for the tier to deal with. Its so far above other offensive threats that it feels hard to justify not running it, and I’ve had to carry 2-3 dedicated checks for it on my teams to feel safe against it. Zac-C demonstrated its banworthiness earlier in the generation when it was free, and nothing has really changed since then except that Shed, which could sometimes check it, is gone.
Double Iron Bash is just uncompetitive, I don’t think there’s much to say about it. Looking at it purely on the grounds of power level it might not be broken, but it’s presence in the tier causes matches to come down to RNG coin flips far too often, and it allows mons to cheese their way through what should be solid checks with just a bit of luck. I don’t see any real reason to keep this around.
To clarify, if Zac-C were banned would it still be allowed with Rusted Sword and Intrepid Sword like it was earlier?
Big sword dog has extremely limited defensive counterplay, is very difficult to check offensively, and is tremendously versatile. It’s just too much for the tier to deal with. Its so far above other offensive threats that it feels hard to justify not running it, and I’ve had to carry 2-3 dedicated checks for it on my teams to feel safe against it. Zac-C demonstrated its banworthiness earlier in the generation when it was free, and nothing has really changed since then except that Shed, which could sometimes check it, is gone.
Double Iron Bash is just uncompetitive, I don’t think there’s much to say about it. Looking at it purely on the grounds of power level it might not be broken, but it’s presence in the tier causes matches to come down to RNG coin flips far too often, and it allows mons to cheese their way through what should be solid checks with just a bit of luck. I don’t see any real reason to keep this around.
To clarify, if Zac-C were banned would it still be allowed with Rusted Sword and Intrepid Sword like it was earlier?
I don't see why it wouldn't. Red Orb Groudon is a thing. I would think Rusted Sword (or maybe Intrepid Sword) would get suspected if Rusted Sword Zacian was overpowered. Not to mention a complete ban on Zacian-C, both freed and limited, would probably be a lot less popular at this point and have a lot less support from the community.
Okay, enough already!
I'm pretty sure EVERYONE wanted Zacian-C banned from BH ever since it was allowed at the very beginning due to how hyper-centralizing and clearly superior it was compared to others. Hell, right now it's even better than it was at first given the mechanic updates on Body Press and Shedinja being recently booted, so keeping it any longer than it has already stayed is just insulting at this point.
Quickban this thing and never let it come back unrestricted again.
As for Double-Iron Bash, I've been advocating how dumb the move has been since the beginning even before Zacian was conceived. It's a crazy-abusable move that allows degenerate and frankly uncompetitive sets and strategies to steal games from others, all while breaking past Substitutes and dealing more damage than it realistically should. Even though it has 8 PP and can be punished by Rocky Helmet, it's just not worth letting exist so it could be further abused by those other than just Zacian-C.
I'm pretty sure EVERYONE wanted Zacian-C banned from BH ever since it was allowed at the very beginning due to how hyper-centralizing and clearly superior it was compared to others. Hell, right now it's even better than it was at first given the mechanic updates on Body Press and Shedinja being recently booted, so keeping it any longer than it has already stayed is just insulting at this point.
Quickban this thing and never let it come back unrestricted again.
As for Double-Iron Bash, I've been advocating how dumb the move has been since the beginning even before Zacian was conceived. It's a crazy-abusable move that allows degenerate and frankly uncompetitive sets and strategies to steal games from others, all while breaking past Substitutes and dealing more damage than it realistically should. Even though it has 8 PP and can be punished by Rocky Helmet, it's just not worth letting exist so it could be further abused by those other than just Zacian-C.
That's what we want to do, and The Immortal has given us assurances that we can do that, even though it does differ slightly from pdon in that the form change isn't something that happens on the field.
My thoughts :
Zacian-C Rusted Sword Intrepid Sword was a good set in the pre-ban Shed meta, with a lot of coverage no needed of band for hit hard, and not locked on one move. This set is really too good, I think we need to suspect test some broken move / abilities (Intrepid Sword / V-create / Bolt Beak / Fishious Rend) to maybe balanced this tier but isn't the matter here. This set of Zacian must be playable for now.
Now the new Zacian... You can use band with his incredible attack and speed tie, use scarf to lure the scarf lure set like Excadrill, or LO/sash for a set-up sweeper set... Also you can run Intrepid Sword for Wallbreak, Mold Breaker for destoying Fur Coat / Flash Fire Check (or use as a fast lead also) and more lure set like Corrosion, Tinted Lens, Technician, Serene grace and I must forgot a lot of viable set... Zaciann-C could used lot of good coverage (V-create / Close Combat / Earthquake / Bolt Beak / Fishious Rend / Power Whip (for Seismitoad) / Double Iron Bash ), and that with some move like Recover/Sword Dance or Shift Gear to be more threatening, so you doesn't have an universal check of this pokemon. Also Zacian-C is a good choice for HO Spam team so, you will face not once but a lot of doggos each game (when a Species Clause?).To conclude, I am for a quickban of Zacian-C with choice on abilities AND item.
Double Iron Bash, the 51% to flinch (84% with Serene Grace) seems dumb for player who didn't play a lot of BH matches. It is dumb, yes, be not so overpower. Prankster doesn't fear of that, huge drawback with Rocky Helmet, only 8 PP so don't spammable, steel resistance doesn't take a lot on this move. So you have a lot of counterplay for this. Certainly this move need a suspect test (but need a lot of suspect test to balance this meta, so I didn't see it as a priority like high power moves like V-create/Bolt Beak/Fishious Rend), so I am against a quickban of Double Iron Bash.
Zacian-C Rusted Sword Intrepid Sword was a good set in the pre-ban Shed meta, with a lot of coverage no needed of band for hit hard, and not locked on one move. This set is really too good, I think we need to suspect test some broken move / abilities (Intrepid Sword / V-create / Bolt Beak / Fishious Rend) to maybe balanced this tier but isn't the matter here. This set of Zacian must be playable for now.
Now the new Zacian... You can use band with his incredible attack and speed tie, use scarf to lure the scarf lure set like Excadrill, or LO/sash for a set-up sweeper set... Also you can run Intrepid Sword for Wallbreak, Mold Breaker for destoying Fur Coat / Flash Fire Check (or use as a fast lead also) and more lure set like Corrosion, Tinted Lens, Technician, Serene grace and I must forgot a lot of viable set... Zaciann-C could used lot of good coverage (V-create / Close Combat / Earthquake / Bolt Beak / Fishious Rend / Power Whip (for Seismitoad) / Double Iron Bash ), and that with some move like Recover/Sword Dance or Shift Gear to be more threatening, so you doesn't have an universal check of this pokemon. Also Zacian-C is a good choice for HO Spam team so, you will face not once but a lot of doggos each game (when a Species Clause?).To conclude, I am for a quickban of Zacian-C with choice on abilities AND item.
Double Iron Bash, the 51% to flinch (84% with Serene Grace) seems dumb for player who didn't play a lot of BH matches. It is dumb, yes, be not so overpower. Prankster doesn't fear of that, huge drawback with Rocky Helmet, only 8 PP so don't spammable, steel resistance doesn't take a lot on this move. So you have a lot of counterplay for this. Certainly this move need a suspect test (but need a lot of suspect test to balance this meta, so I didn't see it as a priority like high power moves like V-create/Bolt Beak/Fishious Rend), so I am against a quickban of Double Iron Bash.
Okay on another topic:
Please Suspect Dynamax.
why suspect Dynamax? it restricts teambuilding far more than it should, and possibly even more than shedinja ever did, as it can make certain improofs near impossible if you want to use a certain set, as your improof could just get blown away by Max moves, I was personally fine with this before when shedinja was around. as it could have a set where not even Dynamax moves could harm it. another issue I find with this is revenge killing. it makes revenge killing SO MUCH HARDER than it needs to be as if a Zacian is at revenge kill ranger and you can fake-speed. if it dynamaxes You can't flinch it and it has double the health. so then imposter can win by just clicking a button, where any other situation you could have won that matchup. so yeah ban this. it's uncompetitive and unfun.
Oh! one more thing: Destiny bond doesnt work.
Please Suspect Dynamax.
why suspect Dynamax? it restricts teambuilding far more than it should, and possibly even more than shedinja ever did, as it can make certain improofs near impossible if you want to use a certain set, as your improof could just get blown away by Max moves, I was personally fine with this before when shedinja was around. as it could have a set where not even Dynamax moves could harm it. another issue I find with this is revenge killing. it makes revenge killing SO MUCH HARDER than it needs to be as if a Zacian is at revenge kill ranger and you can fake-speed. if it dynamaxes You can't flinch it and it has double the health. so then imposter can win by just clicking a button, where any other situation you could have won that matchup. so yeah ban this. it's uncompetitive and unfun.
Oh! one more thing: Destiny bond doesnt work.
Balanced Hackmons really isn't as fun as Gen 7. The lack of choices kinda kills what made it fun imo, since BH was where people could mess with everything. I'm aware that this is due to Gamefreak's changes on the actual game, but still. Wish BH took the "Legacy" mindset that was used for a separate OU.
Even the Crowned Legendaries and Eternamax Eternaus, which are the new playthings, can't be played (without the held items in the Crowned Legs case, not at all in Eternamax's case), and one of the more interesting abilities in Neutralizing Gas was immediately killed before it even had a chance in BH.
Not sure if I'm allowed to post something like this, but just my thoughts on the current state of BH I guess. Seems so ban-happy and limited tbh, I sometimes wonder if regular Hackmons would be playable nowadays without any restrictions.
Even the Crowned Legendaries and Eternamax Eternaus, which are the new playthings, can't be played (without the held items in the Crowned Legs case, not at all in Eternamax's case), and one of the more interesting abilities in Neutralizing Gas was immediately killed before it even had a chance in BH.
Not sure if I'm allowed to post something like this, but just my thoughts on the current state of BH I guess. Seems so ban-happy and limited tbh, I sometimes wonder if regular Hackmons would be playable nowadays without any restrictions.
ngas destroys all possible choice in the metagame, forcing the opponent and yourself into ngas
even if ability clause was used you would have 1 mon just immune to any form of ability based phasing leading to horrible sweep after sweep
look at etern and see if you want it to be played
zacian was recently freed
*pure hackmons plug*
ph frees eternmax and ngas, spoiler is a lot of just those and some sweepers
Well, in the case of Pure Hackmons I would assume it would be a bunch of Eternamax Eternatus' fighting each other with various abilities, with secondary mons like Zacian-C which would be used as breakers or other stuff. Afaik, Comatose is considered a signature ability that isn't negated by Gastro or Mold Breaker, so it likely isn't touched by Neutralizing Gas either (since NGas doesn't affect Ice Face, Stance Change, and whatnot). Comatose would block Sleep spam, which would necessitate a response since one mon can spam sleep and the other can't. Cue the various other abilities like Shadow Tag and Misty Surge, which could be used to counter or take advantage of Comatose. Pure Hackmons could be interesting due to that, but yea likely wouldn't be balanced I imagine, heh.
More importantly, how do you guys feel about a "Legacy" BH, maybe deviate from the "have to be possible in the cart" rule? I was wondering, since Silvally can now use different forms without its drive or ability, can Arceus do the same? How would some of the Thanos-snapped mons (like Primal Groudon) fair against Zacian-C? Just some thoughts I guess, I would think if OU can have a Legacy form, BH could follow that "legacy" mindset too.
More importantly, how do you guys feel about a "Legacy" BH, maybe deviate from the "have to be possible in the cart" rule? I was wondering, since Silvally can now use different forms without its drive or ability, can Arceus do the same? How would some of the Thanos-snapped mons (like Primal Groudon) fair against Zacian-C? Just some thoughts I guess, I would think if OU can have a Legacy form, BH could follow that "legacy" mindset too.
A bummer that no one was there, but your Pet Mod is exactly how I wished actual Balanced Hackmons was. Although tbh there seems to be a lack of players in general in BH rn. Guess I'll crawl back into my hole until Gamefreak decides to re-release all the mons they locked behind DLC.
Hi i would like to discuss the unhealthy aspects of this metagame in order of unhealthiness, as well as address the council.
That was a lot of text, now on the activity of the council.
So regarding Zacian-C and Double Iron Bash I know it has only been around 2 days and one was a weekend but with such a large influx of posts from the community and complaints you would expect that the council provide more response other than the standard personal opinion response from a loser (thx for being active and open). It is very clear that least Zacian-C is beyond busted yet council is not making any actions on this and allowing ladder to devolve to degenerate strategies.
Because right now the lack of immediate action in regards to at least Zacian-C is making BH open r2 a very silly tour with such a garbage meta to play in without gentlemen agreements.
I think it is plainly obvious to any competent player that Zacian-C is warping the entire metagame around itself and basically outclasses every other offensive mon and invalids nearly every defensive check. Its absurd speed tier makes revenge-killing and opposing offensive pressure nearly impossble with the only mon that can outspeed and KO it being Scarf GDZ which can be outsped by using a Scarf Zacian-C of your own or running FF Zacian-C (no one said it had to use offensive abilities). This mon is inherently unhealthy for the current metagame, moreso than Primal Groudon and Mega Rayquaza who actually had possible defensive checks and could be checked offensively.
Double Iron Bash is not immediately broken but is insanely uncompetitive with its solid BP and a staggering 51% flinch chance. It is not uncommon for a very solid defensive check to get consecutively flinched down by Double Iron Bash into range of another move which forces the use of Recovery at high percentages, throwing away momentum that you could've had by using a pivot move. For example, restricted Zacian-C could break past one of its better checks in FC Seismitoad by only flinching once if it has Photon Geyser or flinching twice if it has Sunsteel Strike. The counter-argument so far is that it loses to Pranksters and takes a lot from Rocky Helmet. However regarding Pranksters how many can actually take on the coverage moves without Strength Sap? Rocky Helmet sounds very good until you get hit by the coverage move, get flinched once, and then KOed and now your check is dead and they only took 1/3 HP in doing so. Note that this move, while easily the most viable on Zacian-Crowned, restricted or not, is also useable on a myriad of other offensive mons such as Excadrill, Zamazenta-Crowned, Solgaleo, Necrozma-DM, and even unSTABed attackers like Zamazenta who could use this move to break past Fairies and also chip down would-be checks such as Eternatus in range of moves like Earthquake. This move is very similar to the infamous Chatter and its reasons for Ban is similar as well.
So I'm surprised more people aren't discussing this but this is such a broken move yikes. The ability to trap a mon and practically delete it if it is unable to escape, kill you first, or somehow remove the stat drops is incredibly uncompetitive as it requires minimal skill to use and very difficult to play against when you don't know the set. The best abuser currently I have found is Onyx Onix 7's Normalize Dragapult with Octolock, Multi-Attack, Taunt, and Entrainment which allows it to trap the opponent, prevent any form of retaliation, and preventing the use of moves such as Recovery, Teleport/Baton Pass, and Haze. Replays for the success of this set can be found by simply searching Onyx Onix 7 for replays. Due to the possibility of Max Strike after Dynamaxing, even Dark and Normal types are not safe and the only true counter to this set is Magic Bounce Tyranitar which is not a great set in the metagame. Note that not even Magic Bouncers are safe because most Bouncers take a huge chunk from Multi-Attack at -1 and they cannot stall it otherwise the damage snowballs (Ghost resists have to be really healthy as well because of Max Strike). I personally have faced against the NormPult set and still struggled against it even with full knowledge of the complete set, showing its potency. Octolock can also be used on other mons such as PH Zamazenta, Zacian, and more.
Dynamax is a more controversial topic but it is still very disgusting when playing. The first application of Dynamaxing is to escape Choice locks to surprise a switch-in. This leads to a very large amount of unhealthy 50-50s where the defensive side has to constantly guess if the choiced breaker would dynamax or not and either switch to a different resist or dynamax themselves. 50/50s are already bad for competitiveness but in this case the offensive user has very little risk in choosing what to do while the defensive user could potentially lose his dynamax or take heavy damage on one of his checks. The second application of Dynamaxing is to survive hits you would otherwise not, and this is used primarily on offensive mons to prevent revenge killing. Mons such as Mewtwo and Lunala could easily Dynamax and avoid a KO from GDZ/Zeraora while KOing them. This again leads to a large number of 50/50s that can be unfavourable for both sides (and a large reason why most frail breakers NEED to run a pivoting move to avoid such situations. Such users can also Dynamax to avoid a defensive mon retaliating with a KO from moves like Spectral Thief. The third application of Dynamaxing is to negate certain conditions such as Entrainment and Destiny Bond. This (again) leads to 50/50s when facing sets like NormPult but in the latter case of ignoring stuff like DBond makes Dynamaxing incredibly difficult to outplay as not only do you have to correctly predict the dynamax but you also have to stall out the turns, something very difficult to do when they have strong 130 BP moves. The final application of Dynamaxing is to gain the special effects of the Max Moves, including BP. These moves with the stat changes or field effects allow some mons to win 1v1s they normally wouldn't or potentially setup without the use of passive setup moves by using stuff like Max Knuckle, Max Airstream, and Max Ooze. This is also used on defensive mons after trapping with Anchor Shot and following up with Max Steelspike to gain def boosts to successfully outstall the opponent. This application is notably less effective, more niche, and tame compared to the other. Notice how all applications of Dynamax leads to a large number of risky 50/50s (usually on one side) that make the game very uncompetitive and luck-based. Dynamax also favours offense as defensive mons can't really take advantage of Dynamaxing with the loss of Recovery during Dynamax.
170 BP moves are very strong, this everyone can agree. But compared to the above crap this is really much more healthy. While these moves allow users to brute force through checks one needs to realize that Water and Electric aren't exactly the greatest offensive typings. Both typings have ability immunities and Electric has a natural immunity as well. Obviously these moves aren't very threatening if you can move first with Prankster etc and there aren't a lot of great abusers (Zeraora + Barraskewda + setup Zekrom). I'm kinda on the fence for this one. Match up FISH and Lemme OHKO everything Zera are dumb but I think these moves are definitely less important to get rid off compared to other stuff. Also use Defensive Eternatus it can check these moves (Band IS Zera 2HKOs without FC though watch out).
So this move is usually at least as strong as STAB on a lot of mons which makes it good coverage option for physical mons and also is insanely strong by OHKOing most weak to it etc. etc. The stat drops are much easier to abuse though and lower pp and acc compared to 170 BPs as well as more common immunity abilities used for this makes it less dangerous and IMO not broken at all. GDZ isn't even that fast.
So regarding Zacian-C and Double Iron Bash I know it has only been around 2 days and one was a weekend but with such a large influx of posts from the community and complaints you would expect that the council provide more response other than the standard personal opinion response from a loser (thx for being active and open). It is very clear that least Zacian-C is beyond busted yet council is not making any actions on this and allowing ladder to devolve to degenerate strategies.
I'm glad that Council has opinions on these aspects but why does it need more thoughts and discussion from the community? It is clear that anyone who has played the ladder (one can even judge without but its better if they had experience) that these two things are unhealthy and I would trust that with an unanimous opinion from the community so far as well as the overall high competency of the council as BH players that they would be able to judge this. (Also you guys have played gen 8 as well 2 of you got reqs and 1 almost did, but hey Flint what is up with having 0 gen 8 bh games on your main like are we really going to have a tl that has played only a few friendlies? You can't even make judgments from gen 7 because you were inactive in that too near the later half of SM so like...)
So would you be clear as to what is currently preventing any actions from happening? When I asked you on discord you didn't provide a response other than a joking "every time someone complains we push it back a day" (which btw I sincerely hope is a joke) while no other council member has commented on this.
Because right now the lack of immediate action in regards to at least Zacian-C is making BH open r2 a very silly tour with such a garbage meta to play in without gentlemen agreements.
While not exactly true, as DarmGZ with Refrigerate and Fake Out along with Extremespeed will take out Dragapult, even if you run something like Bold, that's yet more proof dynamaxing makes revenge-killing much more difficult.
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