BH Balanced Hackmons

[XxLazzerpenguinxX]

I believe there is a general consensus, that the balanced hackmons metagame isn't in the best of spots right now. There hasn't been a point this generation, where there were the same number of quality players playing all at once, then what there was in generation 7. A lot of this obviously, is because of dexit, less pokemon, less moves, and less appeal. The other reason the metagame is in such an unappealing state is because of the reasons cityscape outlined above, the very much so “broken moves”. To have the ability to fire up 170 bp moves without any drawbacks and 16 pp as well is ridiculous. Glacial Lance + Bolt Beak also have perfect coverage, essentially forcing every stall, or semi stall team to run Fur Coat else they get 6-0ed by "that one Zacian-Crowned set". Fur Coat is an extremely gross ability, it's incredibly passive, and doesn't add a unique element to a team besides being "bulky". It makes teams incredibly slow, and doesn't allow for creative, physically offensive pokemon to shine. A metagame where fc is necessary, isn't a healthy metagame. Thus, I would support the banning of "the broken moves" (Bolt Beak, Fishious Rend, Glacial Lance"). This would make it a lot more manageable for a team to wall physical pokemon without the need of Fur Coat, and would allow for more inspiring sets to shine, since Fur Coat would become a "second class" ability. (Note, I didn't list V-create as one of “the broken moves" because it only has 8 pp, and drops the user’s stats allowing the opponent to out maneuver it, although I wouldn't argue against banning it per say).

Some might argue that banning these moves would mean that Fur Coat becomes an overpowered ability. Without the necessary tools to create inspiring sets, how might one expect a physically offensive pokemon to break past Fur Coat, all we have is Shift Gear and that can only go so far? To those who might worry about this I would say their worry is definitely justified, and I too am worried. If "the broken moves'' were to be banned I would argue that physical pokemon would need new tools to be able to muscle past Fur Coat pokemon, but would still allow them to be checked by other sets (such as prankster, unaware, or ~~Shedinja~~).

One might argue that, “Well if Fur Coat becomes too good and limits creativity and team building, then we should ban Fur Coat”. To this I would respond that, as a metagame we do not want to fall into a slippery slope where new thing after new thing is broken, after a broken is banned. In this scenario we would eventually reach a point far removed from the previous balanced hackmons metagame (gen7) we all enjoyed. But still, in the name of balanced hackmons, it is necessary to balance the meta, which is why moves / abilities must be banned. I must emphasize however, that the ideal state of the balanced hackmons metagame is one with as many moves, abilities, and pokemon such that the metagame is balanced, and offers a strong diversity of different teams to be built, yet also leave room for exploration. This is something which I believe some people have forgotten.

Historically in bh, things don’t usually get unbanned. In my couple of years of playing balanced hackmons, the only thing I can remember getting unbanned is psychic surge, and that was nowhere near the monster of an ability it was in generation 7 balanced hackmons. For too long in balanced hackmons have we been leaning too strongly towards the mindset of “what are we going to ban next” instead of “what can we unban next”. Right now, we are at a pivotal moment within the history of bh. With the banning of “the broken moves” we will deviate far from what the original goal of bh was, but it almost feels necessary to ban them to have a stable metagame for the reasons outlined above. Thus, I propose two scenarios:

Scenario A: We keep “the broken moves'' and unban Shedninja. What this does is create 4mss on every physical pokemon, allowing them to be more manageable. I would however “complex unban” this such that Shedninja cannot wear heavy-duty-boots if people are too worried about it being OP. Even though the hazards gameplay is really weird with court change around and Giratina being the only relevant ghost pokemon I think would still be manageable. I know not having pursuit kinda sucks, but I think the tradeoff would be worth it.

Scenario B: We ban the broken moves, but strongly consider unbanning abilities such as Protean, Contrary, or ~~Illusion~~ and or, unbanning the move shell smash. I’m not saying that these should be unbanned, but I am saying there must be a serious conversation over whether these can be unbanned, such that the meta still remains balanced.

The direction the metagame is going is simply not healthy, and only diverges from what many of us enjoyed so much in generation 7. Simply banning broken after broken is not ideal, and a different approach must be considered to make balanced hackmons more enjoyable.

Now, I understand that it is inherently impossible to figure whether these scenarios I proposed would even work. Balanced Hackmons is a unique metagame where it may seem obvious what’s been buffed and once been nerfed, but it is inherently impossible to figure out what will happen to the metagame once something has been banned or unbanned. This is seen currently with Generation 8 Balanced Hackmons. The council was handed a truly crazy, imbalanced, and difficult metagame to deal with. The main strategy has been to ban quick ban or suspect ban something and let the metagame run loose and figure itself out. This strategy might not work with unbanning things. I’m not sure what would happen to ladder or tournaments if Council decided to unban Contrary and all of a sudden ladder and tour went berserk (note: I’m not saying Contrary should not be unbanned I’m just using it as an arbitrary example).

Therefore, I propose we possibly have temporary ladder tournaments possibly with the scenarios I proposed above or ones which other people might propose, and at the end of it, people can decide whether they would like to keep said change or not. (I am not part of Council so I’m not experienced with any of these proceedings so I’m not sure if the ‘ladder tour” idea I just proposed is extremely outlandish or not, it was just an idea). Else, if this is an outlandish idea, I still suggest brainstorming on how it would be best to test run (or to just let the ladder run riot) with the scenarios I listed above or any other people might have. In the end though, I trust whatever decision Council will make. They are all experienced and strong players with a really deep knowledge of the meta, and I’d support any decision they make.

TLDR: I’m just your average balanced hackmons player who is really passionate about the meta and not happy with where it is at right now and where it's heading. I really hope this sparks further conversion on how the meta should proceed or could proceed. So please, read everything I wrote. It’s really important to me, and I believe it is also important to you.

 

[Lunatic Hai]

For too long in balanced hackmons have we been leaning too strongly towards the mindset of “what are we going to ban next” instead of “what can we unban next”.

Free Ray and Pdon orz

The direction the metagame is going is simply not healthy, and only diverges from what many of us enjoyed so much in generation 7. Simply banning broken after broken is not ideal, and a different approach must be considered to make balanced hackmons more enjoyable.

In all fairness, it's not entirely the fault of BH and its meta. Gamefreak has just been adding busted offensive mechanic on top of busted offensive mechanic this gen, with little in the way of defensive mechanics. Ice Scales certainly isn't bad, and notwithstanding Shed, Boots existing is something I appreciate (I know this applies to attacking pokemon as well as defensive ones, but Boots protects you from something dealing damage, so I'm including it here). While there is a valid point here, it's not as if we have any busted defensive tactics. Even something as impactful and ubiquitous as Waterceus in natdex wasn't meta-breaking. Just for the sake of including everything, since this is more so to prove how wack additions have been this time around, I'll be including banned aspects of Gen 8 as well. So, what have the overlords over at GameFreak given us?

On the defensive side, we have
- Boots (and that's being generous), which I think is actually pretty nice
- Ice Scales, which, while good at stopping special attackers, does nothing because 90% of offensive mons are physical or carry Gambit
- Zam-C (though even this mon can go offensive), which is also pretty nice
- Etern (also being generous, since this mon is WAY better as an offensive mon)
- Melmetal, who was a staple FC/Prankster mon before but isn't quite as strong now from what I've seen
- Intrepid Shield, which is worthless and shouldn't even be on this list
- Funny Goat Man But Ice (admittedly haven't built much with him, but pretty sure he's more defensive)

On the offensive side
- Rapid spin buff (Actually not bad, allows for the existence of chad metrosexual)
- It's been done to death, but I cannot emphasize enough that Rend/Beak are literally just VC with no downsides and splashable as coverage
- Glacial Lance removing any Dragon type wall pretty much for free
- Zac-C (Freed was busted, but restricted form is actually a decently fun mon and is only busted thanks to busted moves atm)
- Etern (Dummy flexible, really scary because you can't tell what its set is going to be)
- Dragon Energy
- Funny Snowman (Ugly, kill him)
- Octolock
- Gorilla Tactics
- Intrepid Sword
- Funny Goat Man (Also ugly, kill him)
- Astral Barrage
- Double Iron Bash

I'm probably missing something for either or both categories even now, so feel free to remind me. But despite being as charitable as possible, there have been nearly twice as many notable offensive additions to the game as there have been defensive ones. Additionally, all these offensive tactics have a far greater impact even on their own than any of the defensive ones, even down to the mons (Zac-C being locked behind an item and ability slot while Zam-C is free, Etern being way better with an offensive set, Caly-S being way better than Caly-I), so the fact that we've been banning a lot, I think, is far more due to this generation's absolute flood of crazy attacking additions when compared to defensive ones.

I agree that some moves need to go next. I think one that should be considered is Final Gambit. Gambit is super uncompetitive, as it can force the game into a more matchup-oriented state. It can come down to whether one player just happens to have the resources left when down a mon for free to compete with the remaining enemy threats, while the gambit player can build ready for this in advance.
Final Gambit is dumb, get it out of here.

This. There's a wild scarf Etern set with Corrosion and gambit, and it felt really good to manage to cripple the enemy 3 times with all of its key moves. Tricking scarf onto a wall, getting toxic on something important, and blowing something else up all in one game was funny as hell. That being said, gambit is such a free value move in terms of enabling other random attackers that it just doesn't seem like it should be in the meta.

also I think Prankster Copycat with 2 turns moves like Dig, Dive or the worst Shadow Force is kinda dumb since you can't use moves like perish song to stop the spam and Copycat runs a solid amount of PP.

Prank copycat isn't particularly good in this meta, honestly. In fact, there's a rather good example in prank copycat Darm-GZ. That mon was busted in combination with glance and vc 2.0 (that is, beak/rend), and giving it priority with those very strong moves wasn't all that valuable, especially compared to just running some other set. Not only are 2 turn moves not as strong as these, they also are a huge momentum drain and give your opponent tons of opportunities. Oh boy, can't wait for Dig to give enemy TriRay a chance to get up nasty plot for free.


BH really is suffering from a lack of special-attacking diversity, too. Dragon Energy on mons like Etern, Spout Palkia, Resh, etc. is strong, and can be annoying on dragon spam teams, but it's much more easily walled. A similar thing can be said of special attackers in general. Triage M Ray was a great mon in gen 7, and Triage Nasty Plot Ray has some nice potential, but why run that when you can just click funny nuke button 16 times with no repercussions whatsoever

 

[a loser]

This generation of BH has been a wild ride from the start. As others have mentioned, Gen 8 has introduced a ton of new things that are either outright broken or borderline broken, and the fact that tiering decisions were made amidst DLC releases and mechanics research changes is pretty crazy. Some things like Eternatus Eternamax, Gorilla Tactics, and Neutralizing Gas were obvious choices to ban, but most every other decision was not as easy.

It is weird looking back at the Shedinja ban. This suspect test notably (some might say infamously) took place instead of suspecting Bolt Beak and Fishious Rend and was in a pre-DLC meta that was also dealing with Dexit, species spam, Dynamax, and Double Iron Bash. This was also a period where Zacian-C, Zama-C, and DGZ were all in question due to researchers deeming them unable to be hacked into the game, so Zama-C and DGZ at least were taken out of the picture during (most of) the Shed meta.

Strange how all this time later, after Bolt/Rend came in and out of discussions, we are back to wanting to get rid of them. I agree, and have stated the entire gen, that these moves are way too powerful and put too much of a strain on teambuilding. When combined with V-create, and now Glacial Lance, walling these moves is an extremely tall task. Building is incredibly dumb right now because guys like Zacian-C can run as many of these as it wants and make tons of progress, leaving you to do the same or slap the moves on a faster mon like Regieleki.

The fact that we're still saying this after banning Shedinja, Shell Smash, DGZ, Intrepid Sword, and implementing a Forme Clause makes me think that keeping these moves all this time was the wrong decision. I think following the precedent set in past generations, like banning Primal Groudon instead of V-create, was not the right call in this instance. I think that Pdon > V-create was a good call, but Gen 7 BH wasn't dealing with three V-create type moves at the time either. So we've basically spent all gen chipping away at physical attackers by removing their best abilities or banning them outright like unchained Zacian-C and DGZ instead of just taking away their insanely spammable and high BP moves. Don't get me wrong, Intrepid Sword and probably freed Zacian-C would still be too much for the meta without these moves, I'm just thinking we tackled them in the wrong order.

All this to say, I think the "broken moves" meaning Bolt Beak, Fishious Rend, Glacial Lance, and maybe V-create are too much for the meta to handle, when combined. I can't say that each on their own is banworthy or broken but having the option for all four is insane.

I believe each of these moves need to be looked at in a suspect test. I'm not super familiar with suspect tests that look at multiple things at once, but I imagine it works the same as usual. I can't speak for the rest of the council, but I am definitely open to discussing unbans or unsuspects pending the removal of one or more of these moves. I won't say specifically what I've got in mind since I don't know the results of a hypothetical suspect test, but just know it is something I have thought a lot about because I'm not satisfied with the meta right now.

 

[Lunatic Hai]

Don't get me wrong, Intrepid Sword and probably freed Zacian-C would still be too much for the meta without these moves, I'm just thinking we tackled them in the wrong order.

Unrestricted Zacian-C is probably too much, yeah. Even locked behind an item and an admittedly strong ability, the presence of these moves in combination makes it nigh unwallable barring super specific sets. I'd wager that even without said moves, UZC would be too much; the issue with it unrestricted is much the same as with Don and Ray in that it simply had an ungodly amount of flexibility that was impossible/extremely limiting to prepare for all at once. Maybe not quite as bad as those two in a vaccuum (Don and Ray both able to pick between both sides of the attacking spectrum), but definitely comparable considering the fact that Gen 8 is also far more restricted in defensive answers. Restricted Zac-C will probably still be a top tier threat even without these moves.

DGZ was already stronk but not-quite gamebreaking without Glance + Intrepid in tandem, so if we were to ban any of the broken moves besides V-Create, a look at unbanning it may be reasonable. Icicle Crash and Triple Axel were far less reliable, and while Moldy was strong, it wasn't quite as unwallable as an effectively more than 3x boost off the bat on insanely strong moves without even factoring in any weaknesses. I also think it'd be better dealt with given the addition of several other mons. Palkia can probably stomach a banded hit and threaten it back? Cramorant just exists and screws it over with funny Innards 2.0 as well.

Speaking of Cramorant, though it's a good bit lower on the priority list, I don't think it's a particularly healthy mon to allow in the meta— or rather, Gulp Missile with Pikachu is what shouldn't be allowed. Barring Gulp Missile, Cramorant's just another forgettable, worthless mon that would never have any value in BH; in fact, it's apparently untiered in general play thanks to its abysmal stats. However, getting to sit around and freely threaten any physical attacker with significant chip damage AND paralysis without any skillful play from its user doesn't feel right. You can even refresh the idiotic effect by using Endure and swapping out together. Imposter also doesn't get the effects of Gulp Missile, so one of BH's biggest stabilizing factors against stupid sets is useless here. The counterplay for Cramorant essentially amounts to stacking immunities like OM's team does, stalling it out for 300 turns, or running Aromatherapy (a move with very few opportunities to fit into a team while still maintaining an optimal setup). These things aren't very common in BH in general, especially Gen 8 (Zekrom and Regieleki being the only somewhat-commonly used Electric mons, PHeal usually only being on one mon, and stall not being as prominent overall), so you're essentially limited in teambuilding and playstyle simply by the damn thing existing. It requires way too much to counter when compared to just slapping it onto a funny HO team or something. That being said, it's not on the level of the busted moves, but it's something that should remain in the conversation, as it's rather uncompetitive. Forgive the non-mons reference, but at least Wobbling in Melee requires you to win neutral and land a grab. Cramorant's imbalance of risk/reward and pressure is much more akin to ledge camping.

Moving on, I'm not entirely sure which of the moves we'd even get rid of, in all honesty, and the idea of a complex ban keeping you from running X number of them in combination not only doesn't seem like it'd fix the issue (you'd still get blown up by random coverage if you guess wrong), BH hasn't really been the kind of meta to implement complex bans. That being said, if we do vote to ban moves, I believe the biggest candidates would be Beak/Rend. They have both higher BP AND PP than Glacial Lance, while also having more PP than V-Create with no stat reduction. Getting rid of them would eliminate some stuff I've had fun with like making Zekrom an actually solid BH mon and contributing to funny rain teams, but I'd argue that they're the most harmful of the four "broken moves."

Just tossing out my own takes here, I may be missing some contextual stuff that would make things different.

 

[A Touch Of Crazy]

On the topic of restricting things in the current meta, currently Cramorant is quite arguably one of the most restricting pokemon in the meta right now for any kind of offense on a team and a suspect test for it should be considered in my opinion. To be specific the issue in question is the unrestricted use of Cramorant-Gorging in the teambuilder not the ability gulp missile or the alternate (gulping) form.

As it stands right now Cramorant has multiple factors making it insanely reuseable and able to strike fear into the heart of almost every offense available. Any attack that hits Cramorant in its gorging form instantly makes the attacker lose 25% of its health and it also becomes paralyzed as long as it is not afflicted by any major status conditions or an electric type as per usual. The problem with this is that every time cramorant swaps out and swaps back in its ability and form are reset back to gorging, and with the use of some items and moves you can effectively recycle a free paralyze and 25% damage onto any offense at will. These include endure which lets it survive on 1hp from any attack, eject button and red card which can force your opponent's hands to a swap giving Cramorant a turn to recover or swap, and also rocky helmet which does even more damage to contact moves.

Example Cramorant Set

Cramorant-Gorging @ Rocky Helmet/Eject Button/Red Card/Focus Sash/Heavy Duty Boots
Ability: Gulp Missile
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Impish Nature
- Endure
- Fishious Rend
- Strength Sap/Roost
- Flip Turn/Recycle

The free damage output alone would not be too concerning and for its considerably low base stats this would be more than a fair trade-off and not restrict the general flow of the game. However the ability to also inflict an opponent with paralysis and recover the ability to do this simply by swapping out is more than enough to make you question clicking any offensive move just by seeing it on your opponents team. One of the most pressing threats from Cramorant is that it is completely Improofed automatically, which as you know Impostor is the great equalizer which prevents most sets from getting out of hand.

There is counterplay to this and it is by no means unstoppable hence why it is still unbanned, however using a strategy to counter Cramorant almost always requires having a very select few additions to a team that are not even guaranteed to make your battle much easier. Example of this include almost all pokemon with poison heal, as they do not take the paralysis effect from gulp missile and also regenerate health to counteract the 25% chip damage. In turn there is also a counterplay for the team with the Cramorant to counter poison heal offense, they just swap out and bring it back in when you want to send out any other pokemon. Alongside poison heal soaking up status you can also argue that running aromatherapy should eliminate the problem, but this plays out very poorly in an actual battle and experienced players can easily force your hand with how you swap your pokemon to force you into an unwinnable situation very quickly with little to no ways of escaping it.

This situation is not entirely dissimilar to Innards Out, an ability which is now banned due to heavily restricting offense due to the ability to swap in a high hp pokemon with low defenses like blissey and take out your opponent for free. If you compare the two you have one ability which the wielder has to faint in order to activate it and it works a single time, while the other can activate several times throughout the course of a match, and in addition paralyze the opponent, restricting your options and rendering it helpless to strong choiced wallbreakers or forcing a possibly fatal swap into fishious rend or a flip turn pivot to gain momentum.

Arguably one of the most terrifying aspects is that Cramorant can swap into most important unboosted attacks from powerful offenses and live to tell the tale, Zacian-Crowned in particular lives in constant fear of ever clicking sunsteel strike since it hardly damages the blue pelican meanwhile a certain sword dog is crippled and losing up to 37.5% of its health in exchange. Listed below are some examples listed of strong or commonplace unboosted attacks that Cramorant can survive even without the use of endure, or take very little damage from.

Damage Calcs

252 Atk Regigigas Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cramorant-Gorging: 276-325 (80.2 - 94.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Kyurem-Black Glacial Lance vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cramorant-Gorging: 268-316 (77.9 - 91.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Pixilate Xerneas Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Cramorant-Gorging: 247-292 (71.8 - 84.8%) -- not a KO
252 SpA Giratina Core Enforcer vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Cramorant-Gorging: 111-132 (32.2 - 38.3%) -- 96.9% chance to 3HKO
+1 252 Atk Zacian-Crowned Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cramorant-Gorging: 279-328 (81.1 - 95.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Yveltal Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cramorant-Gorging: 111-132 (32.2 - 38.3%) -- 96.9% chance to 3HKO
252+ SpA Adaptability Blacephalon Astral Barrage vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Cramorant-Gorging: 262-310 (76.1 - 90.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Eternatus Volt Switch vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Cramorant-Gorging: 272-324 (79 - 94.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

In conclusion Cramorant-Gorging is incredibly restricting to most offenses, and while I completely agree with the assertion that glacial lance, bolt beak, and fishious rend are a more pressing issue at the moment, I still am of the opinion that Cramorant-Gorging is more than enough of a threat to warrant similar treatment. It can get off basically free paralyzes and chip damage , worst case scenario swap in as a last ditch effort to paralyze and or even kill an oncoming sweeper, while having the freedom to swap in and out to recover health and sit on the sidelines as an underlying threat for the entire battle. This pokemon is 100% naturally Improofed and forces every single team to run aromatherapy and/or one or more poison heal pokemon to even have a chance against it. Not to mention if you really wanted to take advantage of the speed drop from paralysis and your opponent's urge to get rid of your blue pelican once and for all you can just give it destiny bond for one last blow.

Edit: I forgot to mention but the ability also goes through substitute inflicting both the damage and paralysis like it doesn't even exist.

 

[Quantum Tesseract]

I dunno, I think my take is that Cramorant sucks. Like yeah sometimes you get dicked by it and imposter wont save you but the same is true fo a lot of other things like drum, final gambit, imposterpoof simple, etcetera. Yes it's true that it's obnoxious to play against at times but they're sacrificing a pokemon to cripple one of yours, maybe two if they're good or have a solid mu. Gulp missile is really dumb but the combination of it announcing itself at preview and Cramorant being just so aggressively awful of a pokemon to try and make work. makes it more comparable to something like standard tiers Zoroark of "almost really broken" rather than "good in practice."

 

[SuperSkylake]

Agree with QT about the Cram argument. Information has extra high value in BH, and when you see Cram on the opponent's team you are already ahead of him in the information game assuming you don't have your own Cram. You know it will have Gulp Missile, and switching it in is a very passive move on your opponent's part. I've played with and against Cram and it's annoying, but not insurmountable. As Cram's opponent feels a bit constricted by the threat of being randomly paralyzed, the Cram player is similarly constricted by having fewer aggressive mons to use.

About the suspects, I don't think that unbanning Shedinja is a good move, but if we were to ban Bolt Beak or glance, and also Rend, we could bring back DGZ, and that would help matters. I do think it's important that we remove half of the physical boltbeam combo, since boltbeam hits everything except Volt Absorb Volcanion for at least neutral damage. Water is a solid offensive type since it hits common Defensive types Steel and Ground neutrally and the only other common defensive type, Dragon, is weak to Ice and Fairy, with which it is often paired, so they usually just die too.

 

[Champion Leon]

Cramorant also has a weakness to SR which severely limits its ability to just switch in Willy-Nilly and replenish its ability at will. It does have a great typing, and once paralyzed, it can use Roost to remove its neutrality to say Glacial Lance, reduce its weakness to Volt Switch, etc.

What makes Cramorant-Gorging threatening is similar to Imposter Blissey or Pikachu. Unlike Chansey, when you see them on the opponent’s team, you know they are packing Imposter, and you can also be sure they have Scarf, or Light Ball, respectively (although Shed Shell / Toxic Orb Blissey might appear once in a blue moon), and like SuperSkylake said, the more information you have at team preview, the easier it is to view them as having 5 Pokémon + their obvious moveset.

Cramorant-Gorging is also pretty vulnerable to more than just Poison Heal, afterall, status like Toxic, items like Rocky helmet, and non-attacking moves like Defog serve the same purpose as using Rapid Spin. I cannot tell you how upset I was bc I was forced out after using Endure (where they could KO even if I clicked Roost), and tried to Flip Turn only to be hit with Rocky Helmet on my switch.

There are many ways to handle Cramorant-Gorging, and if it is really that big of a threat, why don’t I see it getting ranked any higher than B, or C in most cases, by the others who put it on the VR noms. Sure Shedinja wasn’t an S-rank mon, but it certainly wasn’t C either...

It is usually a deterrent, but if it’s the last Pokémon you have left; and your opponent has already triggered its ability, what can Cramorant-Gorging really do?

It’s literally the only Pokémon in the game that serves a bigger purpose switching out and staying out than it does once it is switched in after the initial turn...

That coupled with a Stealth Rocks weakness, KOed by common moves Bolt Beak without Endure, and vulnerability to non-attacks like Trick, Baneful Bunker, etc. proves how limiting it truly is.

Also those Calcs didn’t consider Life Orb, and other boosting items, or +1 SpA / Atk for Quiver Dance or Shift Gear (if PH Regigigas is in, why wouldn’t it just set up with Shift Gear?)

If you cannot prep from Cramorant-Gorging, whose fault is it really?

Afterall, most of its moves are predictable; Pivoting, Healing, Enduring and Knock Off / filler.

Sure some odd-ball niche moves can be thrown in like Taunt / Encore, but you know not just it’s ability, but the majority of its set once you see it in team preview.

Plus Cramorant-Gorging oddly counters itself, bc neither user wants to use its attacks, allowing you to ultimately stalemate out the foe, or pivot if you opted for a non-damaging pivot move like Teleport or Parting Shot...
——————
Also Unban DGZ if V-Create or Glacial Lance is banned.
DGZ literally has to either rely on HDB or Magic Guard to handle SR, and that already cuts down on an offensive ability or item.

Since it cannot use Intrepid Sword anymore, then you cannot just pair Intrepid Sword with HDBoots. Next with GLance not getting a boost from Tough Claws, or Sheer Force, it really relies on either Adaptability or items for any sort of boost beyond STAB. Is it really that threatening if V-Create goes but GLance stays?

It’s next best set would be Magic Guard + Choice Band, or Adaptability + HDBoots...

On the other side, if GLance is removed, it now has to settle for or Icicle Crash or Triple Axel, basically losing 1/3 of its power either way, plus accuracy issues (75% accuracy for Triple Axel to hit 3 times)...

DGZ did well bc of V-Create + Bolt Beak + Intrepid Sword, but remove its biggest STAB on top of the already banned Ability, and what do you have left? Something powerful, but manageable...

 

[Lunatic Hai]

As Cram's opponent feels a bit constricted by the threat of being randomly paralyzed, the Cram player is similarly constricted by having fewer aggressive mons to use.

Except that HO is extremely strong, and you can just sack any mon in a team archetype that doesn't mind trading down one bit. Not to mention Cram HO is genuinely nutty. Just use Cram to deal with opposing Cram + stop Imposter in its tracks + keep the enemy offense from even hitting you all in one teamslot. Also, switching Cram in may be passive, but it's so threatening by its existence that anything but an extremely passive response from the other player is just a losing move to make. Often, Cram getting sent in forces opponents into either sacrificing something to be crippled or to respond in an equally passive manner, which at worst is an even proposition and at best just gives the Cram player free momentum.

Cramorant also has a weakness to SR which severely limits its ability to just switch in Willy-Nilly and replenish its ability at will. It does have a great typing, and once paralyzed, it can use Roost to remove its neutrality to say Glacial Lance, reduce its weakness to Volt Switch, etc.

Hazards, while still nice when used well, are far less prevalent in Gen 8 thanks to Court Change and Darm being (for now, at least) out of the meta. There aren't that many solid teams that make use of them anymore because of the opportunity cost resulting in an inefficiently used moveslot in most cases.

Plus Cramorant-Gorging oddly counters itself, bc neither user wants to use its attacks, allowing you to ultimately stalemate out the foe, or pivot if you opted for a non-damaging pivot move like Teleport or Parting Shot...

This is... a bit of a weird thing to mention. Just because something is self improof/does well against itself doesn't mean that it's not incredibly cheap. This isn't a Waterceus kind of situation, and kind of soft implies "Dude just use Cram to beat Cram ez" which isn't a particularly good solution. The same situation arises if you use beak to OHKO it; Beak isn't balanced and hasn't been. If it gets banned (I'd say it and Rend are the most likely candidates in the event of a ban), then we have one less way to deal with it.

The argument isn't "there's no counterplay to Cram," it's that much of the counterplay that exists falls to rather specific, niche things, and the Cram player puts a tremendous amount of pressure on you so long as the thing is alive with very little input from them. Clicking any damaging move is just begging to get paralyzed, and if you do click setup or some other move, that just gives the Cram player a free turn to hit you with koff, be a complete asswipe with glare/nuzzle just to ensure the para, etc. Cram's "weakness" to non-damaging moves isn't a positive. It's more a side effect of just not being able to hit it. There's basically no mon ever that, just by existing, stops you from actually attacking it. Sure, mons that don't do chunks of damage are weak to Trick, but none of them punish you so hard for hitting them that you just don't bother trying at all. Also, as nice as PHeal offensive mons are, not every team is gonna use one. Besides, they can always just roll up on you with Cram + purify-koff, and then you're in for an even more annoying ride.

Status damage from toxic or even scald/wow isn't nearly as common right now, either, thanks to offense being so unbelievably strong. Why would I click toxic on any mon and expect it to pressure them when they hit me with funny boltbeam + fire/ice nuke buttons? Like hazards, these just aren't really out there at all. Cram player could just roll up with PHeal offense of their own and stop that whole line of counterplay, too.

Yes, people complain a lot in BH about things they want banned, but I feel in this case Cram's controversy is warranted. It represents an extreme mismatch of risk/reward; why care about the 1 in 10 times when my Cram gets hit by toxic when I just send SL to his room 9 times with braindead pelican?

 

[Champion Leon]

One Pokémon I have been using to great effect, especially against Cramorant is Lunala:

Replays:

Lun”all”a

Lunala Sweep

Lunala @ Flame Orb
Ability: Quick Feet
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Astral Barrage
- Blue Flare
- Nasty Plot
- Ice Beam / Destiny Bond / Recover

Thanks to outspeeding and KOing Chansey, Zacian-C, Zamazenta-C, Calyrex-Ice (even after a Shift Gear), it poses an immediate threat and gets to achieve new KOs thanks to Astral Barrage.

Even if it got Paralyzed, Quick Feet to Paralysis is like Guts to Burn, it negates the drop and only suffers from the other side effect (30% chance to do nothing, or passive damage, respectively).

Due to this Lunala can really take advantage of coming in and easily outspeeding and set up a Nasty Plot.

The other benefit, is that oftentimes many of the opponent’s physical moveset’s strongest offense is their Bolt Beak or Fishous Rend. But since you now outspeed, you can take the Bolt Beak, from say Zacian-C much better, and many times they don’t know you have Quick Feet.

Even if they do, they must resort to using a different move you can better survive, and that keeps you healthy for using Nasty Plot.

Blacephalon, unfortunately is immune to Flame Orb, and thus cannot use Quick Feet without Toxic Orb, while Dawn-Wings is too slow to effectively use Quick Feet.

Lunala also gets to secure the 1HKO due to having less SpD, vs Dawn-Wings, and allows it to take advantage of Imposter copying weaker SpD.

Calculations

Pre-setup

252+ SpA Lunala Astral Barrage vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Necrozma-Dusk-Mane: 336-396 (84.4 - 99.4%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252+ SpA Lunala Astral Barrage vs. 248 HP / 252 SpD Calyrex-Ice: 296-350 (73.4 - 86.8%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252+ SpA Lunala Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Rayquaza: 384-452 (92.7 - 109.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

Post-setup

+2 252+ SpA Lunala Blue Flare vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Zamazenta-Crowned: 394-464 (101.5 - 119.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252+ SpA Lunala Blue Flare vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Zacian-Crowned: 464-548 (119.5 - 141.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252+ SpA Lunala Astral Barrage vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Giratina: 570-672 (113.3 - 133.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252+ SpA Lunala Astral Barrage vs. 248 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 916-1080 (130.2 - 153.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252+ SpA Lunala Blue Flare vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Registeel: 350-412 (96.1 - 113.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

Ice Beam:

+2 252+ SpA Lunala Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Yveltal: 328-386 (71.9 - 84.6%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

+2 252+ SpA Lunala Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Zygarde-Complete: 668-788 (105 - 123.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

——————


For more power and speed, to outrun Pheromosa, Scarf, set-up Pokémon, and nuetral Speed natured Regieleki you can run Spectrier with the same set.

The difference is you will need to adjust your SpD down heavily in order to KO Imposter with Eviolite.

Replay

+2 252+ SpA Spectrier Astral Barrage vs. 248 HP / 48 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 704-830 (100.1 - 118%) -- guaranteed OHKO

The main advantage is Speed, as their power level is near identical, and perhaps taking a better Ghost / Dark move since it isn’t 4x weak, to say Knock Off from a defensive utility Pokémon.

Calculations

The only worthwhile improved damage calculations are:

+2 252+ SpA Spectrier Blue Flare vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Registeel: 362-428 (99.4 - 117.5%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO

(Pretty much not needing SR)

252+ SpA Spectrier Astral Barrage vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Calyrex-Ice: 306-362 (75.7 - 89.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

(Securing the KO)

+2 252+ SpA Spectrier Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Yveltal: 340-402 (74.5 - 88.1%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

(Going from 75% to near 100% is useful)

 

[Patricick]

I've played a good amount of BH, and grown to like the chaotic, creatively open method of teambuilding, and after spending an embarrassing amount of time dicking around in teambuilder, I've stumbled upon a monster of a set, Sheer Force Zekrom.

Nuke (Zekrom) @ Life Orb
Ability: Sheer Force
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Bolt Strike
- Dragon Rush
- Pyro Ball
- Coil

I'm not sure if Sheer Force Zekrom is commonly used, but I've never seen this set used. The strength of a Sheer Force Life Orb Bolt Strike can't be overstated. At +1, it is a nuke of ridiculous proportions. It kills basically every single neutral target. It absolutely murders non fur coat Zamazenta, kills Toxapex through a multiscale, (not sure if that's a viable set but that's what happened to me in game so it's what I'm using) and OHKOs basically everything that doesn't resist it, and probably a lot of things that do. The name of my Zekrom set isn't kidding. With it's coverage moves, the list of things it hits super effectively and doesn't kill at just +1 is very, very small, if it even exists at all.

Now. I should probably address the elephant in the room, the fact that the set has coil, and it packs dragon rush. These two oddball moves go hand in hand, and lead to a much different, more consistent, sweeper set then the standard shift gear sweeper. All the moves used can miss, which as any real competitive player knows, means they miss only when you really, really need them to hit. Without Coil, Dragon rush just straight up isn't worth using. But a little known attribute it has is that it has a 20% chance to flinch, which makes coil the perfect compliment, and sheer force even more so

However, Coil isn't just for the accuracy. The defense bonus is surprisingly helpful, and lets it tank the majority of super effective physical moves. For example, Zekrom will always survive Zacian's play rough at plus one, even with rocks up. It takes a Glacial lance from Kyu B, and a Groudon precipice blades. It's near impossible to OHKO this thing with a physical attack, and it definitely doesn't struggle to OHKO back. Speaking of defensive utility, this thing is immune to paralyzed, and is a hard counter to Cramorant. It absorbs bolt beaks with it's 4x resistence, and is a stop to a regieleki trying to run through your team. It actually has surprising bulk, with 100/120/100 bulk, actually considerably better then Zacian physically, and around the same special bulk. It allows it to tank a strong physical hit to set up, and a very strong neutral or weaker super effective hit on the special side. This is helpful not just to set up, but to switch in on a resisted move.

Aside from the defense bonus, this set is really good at forcing the opponent to sack a pokemon thanks to it's wallbreaking prowess. For example, if you get a free switch into a Ho-Oh, the opponent basically loses at least one mon right then and there thanks to how strong it is. Pretty much all of the common physical walls sans Dialga are weak to one of Zekrom's moves, so they aren't safe switch-ins. That fact alone helps break open defensive pivots, as they can't just switch in and force it out. It has no counters. The fast special attackers that can OHKO it can't at all switch in. Not even something that would seem like a textbook counter, like Xern, can beat it once it has a coil. Very few Xerns run max speed, and because Zekrom is jolly, it will outspeed and OHKO. Not even pixelate e speed can really help, as Zekrom has the +1 defense (Too lazy to do the calcs but I'm 95% sure an e speed won't even kill at without a boost). Thanks to how much balance teams rely on the bulky attackers in the 90-100 speed range, it can just tear through mostly intact teams. Here's just a list of all the viable pokemon that Zekrom OHKOs at +1 in the speed range mentioned. Xerneas, Yveltal, Zekrom, Reshiram (even with fur coat), Zekrom, Regigegis, Palkia, Groudon, Kyogre, Ho-Oh, Kyurem Black, Kyurem White, Rayquaza, Fur-Coatless Dialga, Giratina, Lunala, Solgaleo, and Zygarde. The only pokemon in that range that I've consistently seen run +speed nature are the Kyurems and Palkia. (at least personally).

Everything I've mentioned so far has been with a coil up, and obviously, you're not gonna always have the boost. But you don't need a boost for Bolt Strike to absolutely devastate any mon unfortunate enough to get in the way. Apparently, having two separate 1.33x boosts on a 130 bp stab move coming from 399 attack is pretty fucking strong. Stronger then a fishious rend from Dracovish, and funny enough, literally one bp weaker then Zekrom's own bolt beak, reaching 169 bp along with a free life orb boost on top while not requiring you to go first. Ironically, bolt beak shift gear is both more and less weak to revenge killing. It's better against naturally faster pokemon, but much worse against priority.

Information is one of the most important things in BH, and the best thing about this set is that it hides in plain sight. It is very unlikely, even with how ridiculously strong it is, that the opponent will guess sheer force. Which leads to ill advised defensive counter play, like a Fur Coat Rehsiram coming in on a coil. Or defensive Diagla switching into a plus +1 dragon rush just to get 2HKOed. Or Zamazenta switching in just to get annihilated by a pyro ball. I could go on and on with other examples, but to save you and me time, I won't.

As a related side note, I have built a lot of BH teams. I've gone through the teambuilder looking for potentially good sets a whole, whole lot. And one thing that I always struggle with is making a set that makes significant headway consistently without sacrificing anything. So far, this Zekrom set has been the best at it. Once it gets a free switch, Something is taking massive damage or dying near guaranteed. There is no switching in a counter because it just doesn't have one. The only way to really get rid of it to bring in a fast special attacker that can OHKO it, which requires something to die or for a slow switch move to be used, which means whatever tries to pivot out is probably dying.

Compared to a shift gear set, coil sacrifices speed for consistency, power, and survivability. Neither set is distinctly better, because they serve different purposes. The shift gear set is a lot better at sweeping weakened teams and is harder to revenge kill in most instances, while the coil set is a lot better at wallbreaking and dismantling slower teams by taking advantage of free switches and passive defensive pokemon. I know it seems kinda stupid, but I promise it works. Making stupid sets that fill a niche are kinda my thing, and this is genuinely one of the best one's I've come up with so far.

To end this, I'd like to talk about set details. The moves aren't really changeable. Dragon Rush and Bolt Strike are obvious. while Pyro ball adds unresisted coverage. Pyro ball is by far the best fire move, and no reason to use any other move really. I guess if you really wanna hit Dialga, you could use precipice blades, but you lose vital neutral and supereffective coverage.

On an unrelated related side note, the fact that every pokemon can have every move and ability was really frustrating for me when writing this, because I'm not sure if something is an actual viable set or not, or even if it's been used before. For example, I've seen plenty of shift gear Zekrom, but I've only seen one set that I'm confident was sheer force. But I would have literally no clue otherwise, because there's no confirmation for me. So if I said something really stupid, (Which I almost certainly did) I hope you can find it in your heart to forgive me. This is even worse then it normally would be, because thanks to a convoluted, strange series of events, I don't have access to the Damage Calculator. (Believe me, it's not worth explaining.) So I didn't go into as much detail as I wanted to in the examples of how strong this set is. I also wasn't able to optimize the Evs, as I think there might be a way to OHKO unboosted impostor Blissy with a +1 Dragon Rush, but I currently can't. If anyone wants to check if it's possible, be my guest.

 

[shadowpea]

I've played a good amount of BH, and grown to like the chaotic, creatively open method of teambuilding, and after spending an embarrassing amount of time dicking around in teambuilder, I've stumbled upon a monster of a set, Sheer Force Zekrom.

Nuke (Zekrom) @ Life Orb
Ability: Sheer Force
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Bolt Strike
- Dragon Rush
- Pyro Ball
- Coil

I'm not sure if Sheer Force Zekrom is commonly used, but I've never seen this set used. The strength of a Sheer Force Life Orb Bolt Strike can't be overstated. At +1, it is a nuke of ridiculous proportions. It kills basically every single neutral target. It absolutely murders non fur coat Zamazenta, kills Toxapex through a multiscale, (not sure if that's a viable set but that's what happened to me in game so it's what I'm using) and OHKOs basically everything that doesn't resist it, and probably a lot of things that do. The name of my Zekrom set isn't kidding. With it's coverage moves, the list of things it hits super effectively and doesn't kill at just +1 is very, very small, if it even exists at all.

Now. I should probably address the elephant in the room, the fact that the set has coil, and it packs dragon rush. These two oddball moves go hand in hand, and lead to a much different, more consistent, sweeper set then the standard shift gear sweeper. All the moves used can miss, which as any real competitive player knows, means they miss only when you really, really need them to hit. Without Coil, Dragon rush just straight up isn't worth using. But a little known attribute it has is that it has a 20% chance to flinch, which makes coil the perfect compliment, and sheer force even more so

However, Coil isn't just for the accuracy. The defense bonus is surprisingly helpful, and lets it tank the majority of super effective physical moves. For example, Zekrom will always survive Zacian's play rough at plus one, even with rocks up. It takes a Glacial lance from Kyu B, and a Groudon precipice blades. It's near impossible to OHKO this thing with a physical attack, and it definitely doesn't struggle to OHKO back. Speaking of defensive utility, this thing is immune to paralyzed, and is a hard counter to Cramorant. It absorbs bolt beaks with it's 4x resistence, and is a stop to a regieleki trying to run through your team. It actually has surprising bulk, with 100/120/100 bulk, actually considerably better then Zacian physically, and around the same special bulk. It allows it to tank a strong physical hit to set up, and a very strong neutral or weaker super effective hit on the special side. This is helpful not just to set up, but to switch in on a resisted move.

Aside from the defense bonus, this set is really good at forcing the opponent to sack a pokemon thanks to it's wallbreaking prowess. For example, if you get a free switch into a Ho-Oh, the opponent basically loses at least one mon right then and there thanks to how strong it is. Pretty much all of the common physical walls sans Dialga are weak to one of Zekrom's moves, so they aren't safe switch-ins. That fact alone helps break open defensive pivots, as they can't just switch in and force it out. It has no counters. The fast special attackers that can OHKO it can't at all switch in. Not even something that would seem like a textbook counter, like Xern, can beat it once it has a coil. Very few Xerns run max speed, and because Zekrom is jolly, it will outspeed and OHKO. Not even pixelate e speed can really help, as Zekrom has the +1 defense (Too lazy to do the calcs but I'm 95% sure an e speed won't even kill at without a boost). Thanks to how much balance teams rely on the bulky attackers in the 90-100 speed range, it can just tear through mostly intact teams. Here's just a list of all the viable pokemon that Zekrom OHKOs at +1 in the speed range mentioned. Xerneas, Yveltal, Zekrom, Reshiram (even with fur coat), Zekrom, Regigegis, Palkia, Groudon, Kyogre, Ho-Oh, Kyurem Black, Kyurem White, Rayquaza, Fur-Coatless Dialga, Giratina, Lunala, Solgaleo, and Zygarde. The only pokemon in that range that I've consistently seen run +speed nature are the Kyurems and Palkia. (at least personally).

Everything I've mentioned so far has been with a coil up, and obviously, you're not gonna always have the boost. But you don't need a boost for Bolt Strike to absolutely devastate any mon unfortunate enough to get in the way. Apparently, having two separate 1.33x boosts on a 130 bp stab move coming from 399 attack is pretty fucking strong. Stronger then a fishious rend from Dracovish, and funny enough, literally one bp weaker then Zekrom's own bolt beak, reaching 169 bp along with a free life orb boost on top while not requiring you to go first. Ironically, bolt beak shift gear is both more and less weak to revenge killing. It's better against naturally faster pokemon, but much worse against priority.

Information is one of the most important things in BH, and the best thing about this set is that it hides in plain sight. It is very unlikely, even with how ridiculously strong it is, that the opponent will guess sheer force. Which leads to ill advised defensive counter play, like a Fur Coat Rehsiram coming in on a coil. Or defensive Diagla switching into a plus +1 dragon rush just to get 2HKOed. Or Zamazenta switching in just to get annihilated by a pyro ball. I could go on and on with other examples, but to save you and me time, I won't.

As a related side note, I have built a lot of BH teams. I've gone through the teambuilder looking for potentially good sets a whole, whole lot. And one thing that I always struggle with is making a set that makes significant headway consistently without sacrificing anything. So far, this Zekrom set has been the best at it. Once it gets a free switch, Something is taking massive damage or dying near guaranteed. There is no switching in a counter because it just doesn't have one. The only way to really get rid of it to bring in a fast special attacker that can OHKO it, which requires something to die or for a slow switch move to be used, which means whatever tries to pivot out is probably dying.

Compared to a shift gear set, coil sacrifices speed for consistency, power, and survivability. Neither set is distinctly better, because they serve different purposes. The shift gear set is a lot better at sweeping weakened teams and is harder to revenge kill in most instances, while the coil set is a lot better at wallbreaking and dismantling slower teams by taking advantage of free switches and passive defensive pokemon. I know it seems kinda stupid, but I promise it works. Making stupid sets that fill a niche are kinda my thing, and this is genuinely one of the best one's I've come up with so far.

To end this, I'd like to talk about set details. The moves aren't really changeable. Dragon Rush and Bolt Strike are obvious. while Pyro ball adds unresisted coverage. Pyro ball is by far the best fire move, and no reason to use any other move really. I guess if you really wanna hit Dialga, you could use precipice blades, but you lose vital neutral and supereffective coverage.

On an unrelated related side note, the fact that every pokemon can have every move and ability was really frustrating for me when writing this, because I'm not sure if something is an actual viable set or not, or even if it's been used before. For example, I've seen plenty of shift gear Zekrom, but I've only seen one set that I'm confident was sheer force. But I would have literally no clue otherwise, because there's no confirmation for me. So if I said something really stupid, (Which I almost certainly did) I hope you can find it in your heart to forgive me. This is even worse then it normally would be, because thanks to a convoluted, strange series of events, I don't have access to the Damage Calculator. (Believe me, it's not worth explaining.) So I didn't go into as much detail as I wanted to in the examples of how strong this set is. I also wasn't able to optimize the Evs, as I think there might be a way to OHKO unboosted impostor Blissy with a +1 Dragon Rush, but I currently can't. If anyone wants to check if it's possible, be my guest.

Nice set! I'll definately try it when I can
Two questions though:
1. If I can hit Dialga with Blades while still destroying Zama and co., what's stopping me from running Blades? Bolt Strike and Dragon Rush gives me plenty of neutral coverage already and Steel/Flying types gets annihinated by Bolt Strike.
2. How the hell do you improof this?

 

[Champion Leon]

Nice set! I'll definately try it when I can
Two questions though:
1. If I can hit Dialga with Blades while still destroying Zama and co., what's stopping me from running Blades? Bolt Strike and Dragon Rush gives me plenty of neutral coverage already and Steel/Flying types gets annihinated by Bolt Strike.
2. How the hell do you improof this?

Probably Flash Fire Ferrothorn, Volt Absorb Tapu Fini, or a multitude of nuetral FC mons. (Imposter doesn’t pack Life Orb, so theirs is weaker than yours).

I think the set would be better with just using Speed Boost, Swords Dance, Bolt Beak, Multi-Attack, Filler @ Dragon Memory.

+1 Atk + Life Orb = 1.5 x 1.3 = 1.95 while Swords Dance = 2.

Bolt Beak > Sheer Force Bolt Strike and doesn’t miss.

Multi-Attack = 120 base vs SForce Dragon Rush at 130.

Pretty comparable, but can better handle Imposter, can hit first without worrying about stuff like Zacian-C KOing you with Play Rough, etc.

Giratina can Improof, as a more mainstream Pokémon, can continue to get Speed boosts even if Haze is used, and if Imposter is slow pivoted in, your Speed Boost activated but theirs doesn’t — keeping you ahead of non-Scarf versions.

If he uses Coil without Recovery it doesn’t seem to take advantage of its bulk.

Coil works better for PHeal, and Unaware users so they can benefit their durability. Unaware requires a Healing move, or a Draining move.

Albeit, I have been known to use Hustle + Coil in the past, but only on Zamazenta-Crowned bc it can also stack Multi-Attack + Fighting Memory for immediate power, and durability vs Imposter.

 

[Patricick]

Probably Flash Fire Ferrothorn, Volt Absorb Tapu Fini, or a multitude of nuetral FC mons. (Imposter doesn’t pack Life Orb, so theirs is weaker than yours).

I think the set would be better with just using Speed Boost, Swords Dance, Bolt Beak, Multi-Attack, Filler @ Dragon Memory.

+1 Atk + Life Orb = 1.5 x 1.3 = 1.95 while Swords Dance = 2.

Bolt Beak > Sheer Force Bolt Strike and doesn’t miss.

Multi-Attack = 120 base vs SForce Dragon Rush at 130.

Pretty comparable, but can better handle Imposter, can hit first without worrying about stuff like Zacian-C KOing you with Play Rough, etc.

Giratina can Improof, as a more mainstream Pokémon, can continue to get Speed boosts even if Haze is used, and if Imposter is slow pivoted in, your Speed Boost activated but theirs doesn’t — keeping you ahead of non-Scarf versions.

If he uses Coil without Recovery it doesn’t seem to take advantage of its bulk.

Coil works better for PHeal, and Unaware users so they can benefit their durability. Unaware requires a Healing move, or a Draining move.

Albeit, I have been known to use Hustle + Coil in the past, but only on Zamazenta-Crowned bc it can also stack Multi-Attack + Fighting Memory for immediate power, and durability vs Imposter.

That speed boost SD set is actually a really good idea. I need to try it out.

But I think the main purpose of this set is being misunderstood, which is mostly my fault. The set is a wallbreaker first, Sweeper second. I really should have emphasized that more in my original post, so people misunderstanding it is my bad. I made this as a wallbreaker, but I started sweeping teams, so I realized how much promise it had. While your set is almost certainly better at sweeping, the coil set has the added benefit of being a terrifying wallbreaker, even unboosted.

+1 Atk + Life Orb = 1.5 x 1.3 = 1.95 while Swords Dance = 2.

Bolt Beak > Sheer Force Bolt Strike and doesn’t miss.

Multi-Attack = 120 base vs SForce Dragon Rush at 130.

This section confuses me. Are you talking about for your own set, or mine? Because if you're talking about mine, then you forgot to add sheer force, which invalidates your point altogether. If you're talking about your set, then there's no reason to use coil unless you're using sheer force. And why are you comparing Multi attack to Dragon rush? First off, you forgot the life orb, so it's more powerful then you say. Second, they're used in two completely different capacities. If you don't use coil and sheer force, don't use Dragon Rush. If you're using speed boost, then same with bolt beak. No real reason to use Bolt strike if you're gonna boost your speed.

I'd like to say, and I should have also emphasized this in my OP, this set only works as a whole. Without Sheer force and life orb, there's no reason to use dragon rush. Without Dragon Rush, Coil doesn't make sense. But together. they form one cohesive set that works perfectly to feel the niche of a wallbreaker that tears apart balance and defensive teams and can also function as a late game sweeper. It perfectly compliments and is complimented by a strong special pivot.

As for dragon memory multi attack, not a bad idea in concept, but sacrificing an item slot for 1.2x power on the lesser of your stab moves isn't really worth it. If you really want the extra power, just run life orb and take the 10% damage to also boost the rest of your moves. Or, run dragon plate instead and use dragon darts and get the same BP as a multi-hit

Pretty comparable, but can better handle Imposter, can hit first without worrying about stuff like Zacian-C KOing you with Play Rough, etc.

2. How the hell do you improof this?

+1 Zekrom always survives a Play rough even with stealth rocks and a layer of spikes up, and has a 75% chance to survive with spikes up. And if Zacian gets in for free, something already died so Zekrom did it's job. As for Improofing, like I said in my OP, I think you could alter the EV spread so that a +1 dragon rush OHKOs a Chansey that switches in. Or even if you just land two unboosted Dragon rushes, which, if my math is correct, is a 56% chance.

If he uses Coil without Recovery it doesn’t seem to take advantage of its bulk.

You would think so, but I find that's not the case in practice. Balance teams rely heavily on Pokemon in the 90-100 speed tier, and at Jolly, Zekrom outspeeds almost all of them because they rarely run a +speed nature. And since all relevant priority is physical, it can survive them all. Fast strong special attackers beat it, but they have to get in first, and none of them can switch in. So something has to die. An ice scales pivot is a really good partner.

1. If I can hit Dialga with Blades while still destroying Zama and co., what's stopping me from running Blades? Bolt Strike and Dragon Rush gives me plenty of neutral coverage already and Steel/Flying types gets annihinated by Bolt Strike.

Precipice Blades doesn't have a secondary effect, so not only is it significantly less powerful, it deals life orb damage, immediately revealing your set.

 

[Champion Leon]

That speed boost SD set is actually a really good idea. I need to try it out.

But I think the main purpose of this set is being misunderstood, which is mostly my fault. The set is a wallbreaker first, Sweeper second. I really should have emphasized that more in my original post, so people misunderstanding it is my bad. I made this as a wallbreaker, but I started sweeping teams, so I realized how much promise it had. While your set is almost certainly better at sweeping, the coil set has the added benefit of being a terrifying wallbreaker, even unboosted.


This section confuses me. Are you talking about for your own set, or mine? Because if you're talking about mine, then you forgot to add sheer force, which invalidates your point altogether. If you're talking about your set, then there's no reason to use coil unless you're using sheer force. And why are you comparing Multi attack to Dragon rush? First off, you forgot the life orb, so it's more powerful then you say. Second, they're used in two completely different capacities. If you don't use coil and sheer force, don't use Dragon Rush. If you're using speed boost, then same with bolt beak. No real reason to use Bolt strike if you're gonna boost your speed.

I'd like to say, and I should have also emphasized this in my OP, this set only works as a whole. Without Sheer force and life orb, there's no reason to use dragon rush. Without Dragon Rush, Coil doesn't make sense. But together. they form one cohesive set that works perfectly to feel the niche of a wallbreaker that tears apart balance and defensive teams and can also function as a late game sweeper. It perfectly compliments and is complimented by a strong special pivot.

As for dragon memory multi attack, not a bad idea in concept, but sacrificing an item slot for 1.2x power on the lesser of your stab moves isn't really worth it. If you really want the extra power, just run life orb and take the 10% damage to also boost the rest of your moves. Or, run dragon plate instead and use dragon darts and get the same BP as a multi-hit



+1 Zekrom always survives a Play rough even with stealth rocks and a layer of spikes up, and has a 75% chance to survive with spikes up. And if Zacian gets in for free, something already died so Zekrom did it's job. As for Improofing, like I said in my OP, I think you could alter the EV spread so that a +1 dragon rush OHKOs a Chansey that switches in. Or even if you just land two unboosted Dragon rushes, which, if my math is correct, is a 56% chance.


You would think so, but I find that's not the case in practice. Balance teams rely heavily on Pokemon in the 90-100 speed tier, and at Jolly, Zekrom outspeeds almost all of them because they rarely run a +speed nature. And since all relevant priority is physical, it can survive them all. Fast strong special attackers beat it, but they have to get in first, and none of them can switch in. So something has to die. An ice scales pivot is a really good partner.


Precipice Blades doesn't have a secondary effect, so not only is it significantly less powerful, it deals life orb damage, immediately revealing your set.

Here is a breakdown for my Calc.

I am comparing +2 from Swords Dance to Sheer Force Life Orb Bolt Strike and Dragon Rush.

+2 Bolt Beak (when faster is 2 x 170 = 340)

Sheer Force Bolt Strike (is 1.3 x 130 = 169)

Adding Life Orb + Coil is 1.5 x 1.3 = 1.95

1.95 x 169 = 329.55 making Bolt Strike weaker

Swords Dance (x2) Dragon Memory + Multi Attack is 2 x 120 Dragon = 240

Sheer Force Dragon Rush is 1.3 x 100 = 130

Coil + Life Orb is 1.95 x 130 = 253

A basic trade off of your main Electric for you Dragon, but it makes you much easier to Improof, and if you lose your ability like via Core Enforcer, you keep your power via Swords Dance and don’t lose it by losing Sheer Force.

Also, it makes you easier to Improof bc without Memory, your Multi-Attack is Normal, letting Giratina handle Electric with its resist (Bolt Beak), and be immune to Multi-Attack.

 

[Patricick]

Here is a breakdown for my Calc.

I am comparing +2 from Swords Dance to Sheer Force Life Orb Bolt Strike and Dragon Rush.

+2 Bolt Beak (when faster is 2 x 170 = 340)

Sheer Force Bolt Strike (is 1.3 x 130 = 169)

Adding Life Orb + Coil is 1.5 x 1.3 = 1.95

1.95 x 169 = 329.55 making Bolt Strike weaker

Swords Dance (x2) Dragon Memory + Multi Attack is 2 x 120 Dragon = 240

Sheer Force Dragon Rush is 1.3 x 100 = 130

Coil + Life Orb is 1.95 x 130 = 253

A basic trade off of your main Electric for you Dragon, but it makes you much easier to Improof, and if you lose your ability like via Core Enforcer, you keep your power via Swords Dance and don’t lose it by losing Sheer Force.

Also, it makes you easier to Improof bc without Memory, your Multi-Attack is Normal, letting Giratina handle Electric with its resist (Bolt Beak), and be immune to Multi-Attack.

That makes a lot more sense. I was wondering why you were using Multi attack until you mentioned improofing lol

The core enforcer weakness is pretty much irrelevent, if it gets hit by fast one it's probably dead, and if it lives, then it doesn't matter. If it gets hit by a slow one, which is unlikley considering that most users are dragons and Zekrom has absurdly powerful stab d rush, then it also doesn't matter because it's also probably going to die.

As for Improofing for the coil set, Fur Coat Dialga is always a great choice, +speed Kyu B and Xern with Boomburst, Groudon, Palkia or Eternatus with Dragon Energy and Dragons maw, and you can't get a better counter then flash fire steelix, although that's really specific, and probably not a viable set.

The most viable counter by far is just normalize entrainment on a ghost type that's faster. Lunala is a good candidate, and so is Giratina.

Personally, I've been using this Lunala set

plz no knock off (Lunala) @ Focus Sash
Ability: Normalize
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Boomburst
- Recover
- Taunt
- Entrainment

As a great counter. I'm not going to go into great detail, but it works really well. Boomburst is really the only viable attacking option, as it has 16 pp and is the strongest special move with no drawback. Recover is for longevity, taunt is for completely locking down an entrained pokemon. I use focus sash for extra utility, but you could replace it with anything really. Max speed to outspeed Zekrom.

Overall, I feel like there are pros and cons to both sets. My set sacrifices speed and some power after setting up for considerably greater power pre-setup and greater defense. Whichever one you use should really depend on your team. If you have the space for an endgame win con, then yours is better. If you lack space for offense, then I would use mine. TLDR his is better for HO and mine is better for Balance. (At least in my opinion.)

 

[Champion Leon]

That makes a lot more sense. I was wondering why you were using Multi attack until you mentioned improofing lol

The core enforcer weakness is pretty much irrelevent, if it gets hit by fast one it's probably dead, and if it lives, then it doesn't matter. If it gets hit by a slow one, which is unlikley considering that most users are dragons and Zekrom has absurdly powerful stab d rush, then it also doesn't matter because it's also probably going to die.

As for Improofing for the coil set, Fur Coat Dialga is always a great choice, +speed Kyu B and Xern with Boomburst, Groudon, Palkia or Eternatus with Dragon Energy and Dragons maw, and you can't get a better counter then flash fire steelix, although that's really specific, and probably not a viable set.

The most viable counter by far is just normalize entrainment on a ghost type that's faster. Lunala is a good candidate, and so is Giratina.

Personally, I've been using this Lunala set

plz no knock off (Lunala) @ Focus Sash
Ability: Normalize
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Boomburst
- Recover
- Taunt
- Entrainment

As a great counter. I'm not going to go into great detail, but it works really well. Boomburst is really the only viable attacking option, as it has 16 pp and is the strongest special move with no drawback. Recover is for longevity, taunt is for completely locking down an entrained pokemon. I use focus sash for extra utility, but you could replace it with anything really. Max speed to outspeed Zekrom.

Overall, I feel like there are pros and cons to both sets. My set sacrifices speed and some power after setting up for considerably greater power pre-setup and greater defense. Whichever one you use should really depend on your team. If you have the space for an endgame win con, then yours is better. If you lack space for offense, then I would use mine. TLDR his is better for HO and mine is better for Balance. (At least in my opinion.)

The only issue is that a counter has to be able to switch in, so Lunala getting hit by +1 Bolt Strike on the switch in still hurts it enough to be a 1HKO

+1 252+ Atk Sheer Force Zekrom Bolt Strike vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Lunala: 430-507 (89.9 - 106%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

In order for Lunala to check it, it must be used before Coil is used...

I know it’s faster, but the Imposter can just switch out while you use Entrainment, say to a Magic Bouncer, or an attack like Multi-Attack off of something else, and then Lunala may be forced out before it can heal.

Usually a counter has to be 3HKO’d or more, being 2HKOed is more of a check (a safe switch in from Teleport to send in Lunala allows it to force out Imposter), while a counter can switch in without being slow pivoted in.

+1 252+ Atk Sheer Force Zekrom Dragon Rush vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Giratina: 492-582 (97.8 - 115.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

Giratina isn’t a counter even with Normalize, bc it won’t survive.

Note: I did remove Life Orb to represent Imposter.

The other Dragons you mentioned are more frail than Giratina, so Eternatus, Palkia, etc. will not survive.

I like your set for a wall breaker, but for Imposterproofing — Fairies and Steels with Electric resists are safer.

+1 252+ Atk Sheer Force Zekrom Dragon Rush vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Fur Coat Dialga: 135-160 (33.4 - 39.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

Dialga works okay, but to outspeeds it needs to be +Spe / Timid

Fur Coat and Unaware are helpful, but if you don’t want to be stuck with those abilities durable resists like Ferrothorn works well to use moves like Anchor Shot, Spectral Thief, Rapid Spin, Shore Up, and Rocky Helmet with Flash Fire, to cover many others your opponent may use.

 

[abriel]

has there been any discussion about an imposter ban?

Discussion? Yes, you literally only have to scroll back one page to see discussion on in. Any indication or reason for it to happen? No. As has been said in previous discussions, Imposter is the most consistent part of the BH meta. You design the Imposter's sets, so you know what is coming and are able to entirely prepare for its presence in the builder. An important part of the "sandbox" nature of BH is that your team needs to be able to answer the wide variety of breakers in the meta, and Imposter is merely a part of that. Also, Imposter has many weaknesses that you are able to exploit in improofing your sets. All Imposter sets only have 5 PP per move and 20 PP total, so you are able to play around that and trap all non-Shed Shell Imposters. Also, self-improof sets are very viable and Imposter cannot do anything to them. All in all, Imposter is very good but not overwhelming by any means, and I don't see a reason to ban it anytime in the immediate future.

 

[Lunatic Hai]

You would think so, but I find that's not the case in practice. Balance teams rely heavily on Pokemon in the 90-100 speed tier, and at Jolly, Zekrom outspeeds almost all of them because they rarely run a +speed nature.

Yo, uh. Balance isn't quite so ubiquitous in Gen 8. Half the teams running around are some variant or combination of HO, Cramorant hell, or Bulky Offense. I'm a player who's made maybe 2 stall teams ever and spent 90% of my time with balance teams. It doesn't particularly matter if Zek has a good matchup vs balance teams when the enemy has a fast gambit mon or several to just Thanos snap half your team away before cleaning up with what's left of their team. Considering you're using this Zekrom on a balance team yourself, the main concern in gen 8 for the most part is not getting completely erased by offensive teams. High power without an abundance of speed, sustainability, or utility isn't enough. As an example, take Zac-C. Comparable power to Zekrom thanks to Intrepid Sword, similar coverage, blistering speed, and more flexibility. Zekrom certainly isn't competing in the immediate speed category, which is why most sets involving it are relegated to shift gear setup, sustainable PH sets, etc.

Precipice Blades doesn't have a secondary effect, so not only is it significantly less powerful, it deals life orb damage, immediately revealing your set.

That actually gives me a bit of an idea. I've never tested it, but does tarrows function alongside sheer force since it has an added effect of knocking enemies down? If so, it could make a decent substitution over pyro ball. You trade a bit of power for perfect accuracy, a better attacking type with almost identical coverage, and more PP. Then again, you are running coil, but OM already brought up the fact that coil doesn't complement this set very well thanks to lack of actual sustainability. It's also rather solidly walled by one of the best physical mons in the meta, Zygod. Depending on the set, you're either getting erased by Metal Burst or eaten by Spectral Thief. Even at +1, you have a 50/50 chance of killing the thing, and I don't particularly like those odds.

252 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Zekrom Dragon Rush vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Zygarde-Complete: 198-234 (31.1 - 36.7%) -- 64.2% chance to 3HKO

Not to mention the fact that strong, faster, super-effective threats like Dragon Energy Palkia/Etern and Pixilate Xerneas just blow you up on the spot. Most Xerns will admittedly run Modest, but Metrosexual just gets off a rapid spin and deletes you anyway. Plus, with how ridiculously flexible that set is, it's more than capable of simply nuking your Scales wall with funny balanced fossil moves before proceeding to delete the rest of your team.

252 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Zekrom Bolt Strike vs. 252 HP / 252- Def Xerneas: 363-426 (79.6 - 93.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Even assuming you get Zekrom into it before it has a chance to rapid spin, Metrosexual guarantees survival against jolly, then proceeds to nae nae you with strength sap. Admittedly, it still can't switch in, but that's the case with many offensive mons. Zacian probably isn't gonna be switching in on Palkia any time soon, or Zekrom on Lunala. Metrosexual's starting to become a good bit more common nowadays, and good players piloting teams that support it will probably get more chances for Xern to bust a hole into the team than you will to do the same with Zekrom. If you want a hybrid wallbreaker/sweeper, I suggest you check out this set.

My Gay Husband When (Xerneas) @ Metronome
Ability: Pixilate
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest/Rash Nature
- Boomburst
- Coverage/Utility
- Strength Sap
- Rapid Spin

Metronome Xern has similar solid wallbreaking power, the potential to effectively reach +2 on its moves for sweeps, far more flexibility and utility than Zekrom, and sustainability that Zek can't get unless it's a PH set. LO SF Zekrom has been a thing for quite some time. This isn't a particularly new set by any means. There's a reason it's not used very often despite having been around for a while. MMY was a far superior user, and iirc regular Mewtwo even tried it in early gen 8.

has there been any discussion about an imposter ban?

This has already been done countless times in forum posts and salt-filled ladder matches, and the general consensus is that it's not worthy of a ban. Imp's strength is limited, and its impact is restricted solely to how your team is built, yadda yadda yadda. Yes, it puts a great deal of pressure on teambuilding, but that's generally in the form of "Hey, you need to make sure you can handle X offensive threat instead of haphazardly slapping it onto your team" and "This defensive mon can't be completely helpless, or Imp farms it for free HP." Counterplay is plentiful in the form of (depending on the item) self improof sets, paralysis, trapping, etc. While imposter is very strong in its ability to scout out your sets and give the enemy information, from the start you have something of an advantage in that you know they're running imp. Often, they'll lead with it to safely scout sets, so you can already play mindgames with momentum or send out funny normalize ghost type meme.

Pretty much the only time it's going to actually destroy you without you making huge errors in plays or teambuilding is against a paraspam team featuring imposter Pikachu. While the "integral part of BH" and "idk bro it's here to stay deal with it" arguments are flawed, imposter's not broken by any stretch of the imagination and is nowhere near deserving of a ban.

But it's an integral part of BH so idk bro it's here to stay deal with it.

 

[Lunatic Hai]

bring the ability limit clause back

nobody wants to battle against 4 imposters teams

Unsure if that's a meme or not, but like. Multi imposter teams are usually ass. The weaknesses of imposter get stacked while its strengths aren't really increased by any meaningful amount. BH is a meta so diverse that teams with mons running the same abilities don't really do so well, outside of like speed boosting weather-specific abilities on dedicated weather teams. That's just low ladder cheese, not something that actually has an impact on the meta.

 

[a loser]

A few quick updates:
Chessking345 has decided to leave the BH Council. Thanks for your contributions!

The council is actively discussing the next moves to make for the metagame but we are still largely undecided on specific actions to take. I'll go into some of our thoughts below, but we'd love to hear more discussion on it from everyone.

Broken Moves
Bolt Beak and Glacial Lance are on the forefront, with Fishious Rend and V-create more in the background but still being talked about. In my opinion, Bolt Beak is the most problematic of the four moves and this is compounded when used with the other moves. I've been using this set that is fairly simple but stupidly effective:

Regieleki @ Life Orb
Ability: Mold Breaker
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Glare
- Bolt Beak
- Glacial Lance
- Strength Sap

Here's a replay of BoltBeam in action. This set abuses Eleki's blistering Speed and the metagame's reliance on abilities like Fur Coat and Volt Absorb to check strong moves like Bolt Beak. Eleki's LO boosted attacks 2HKO common FC users like Zama-C and Giratina and immensely pressure offensive mons with Glare + Strength Sap along with its attacks. I've had a fair amount of success on the ladder with this set and I can comfortably say that it is good because of the Base Power of the moves, not because of the user since Eleki's Attack is only an average base 100.

Broken Bird
Gulp Missile has been discussed, and at the moment, we don't see a big issue with it. Free paralysis is very good and helpful for multiple team styles, but there are multiple forms of viable counter play like Poison Heal, Electric-types, and non-contact pivot moves like Baton Pass and Teleport. Cramorant's defensive typing is solid but its 70/55/95 bulk leaves much to be desired. If Gulp Missile could be run on anything, like Giratina for example, it would be much more of an issue. But for now, until we see anything to convince us otherwise, Gulp Missile will stay.

 

[Lunatic Hai]

Lugia @ Flame Orb
Ability: Magic Guard / Quick Feet
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Psycho Shift
- Roost
- Rapid Spin / Worry Seed
- Thunder Cage / Topsy-Turvey

This Lugia seeks to take advantage of all of its unique properties.

After a Quick Feet activation / Rapid Spin, you outspeed Adamant Regieleki (like the set from the post directly above this one), meaning you cut Bolt Beak / Fishous Rend in half, you cut Bolt Beak and Glacial Lance in half when you Roost to remove your weaknesses.

You Burn, while outspeeding, to further cut Atk of foes in half before they can move (outspeeding the entire meta — barring +Spe natured Regieleki), you also absorb status and if you are Magic Guard, are a literal perfect counter to both the paralysis and Gulp Missile effects of Cramorantc due to immunity to each. Thunder Cage also deals 4x vs Cramorant, “super effectively” nuking it.

I like Rapid Spin for Lugia on Magic Guard bc it allows you to make up not having the Quick Feet Speed Boost, and it works well to clear hazards due to its ability allowing for easy switch-ins.

I use Worry Seed on Lugia for the Quick Feet sets bc Entrainment gives Poison Healers a Speed Boost from their Toxic Orb, and I would rather not. Quick Feet also stops -ate users like Xerneas pretty easily.

Quick Feet also partners nicely with Topsy-Turvey off of simply out speeding even some +2 Speed users like Calyrex-Ice, and makes the set almost as good as a Prankster boost, since Lugia has a higher 110 base Speed than most walls.

The slash of the ability represents the slash of the moveset so I don’t have to separate both sets. Min attack, even on Rapid Spin so the foe doesn’t get much from Strength Sap.

Low key curious, what does this set hope to accomplish besides crippling physical attackers? Non PH mons with status kind of telegraph psycho shift, so anyone with a lick of sense is probably going to to swap out to something else. You do bust funny pelican and occasionally clear hazards, but Lunala deletes it. Maybe I phrased it wrong earlier; exactly how are you using the mon besides burning physical attackers in most instances?

 

[Champion Leon]

Low key curious, what does this set hope to accomplish besides crippling physical attackers? Non PH mons with status kind of telegraph psycho shift, so anyone with a lick of sense is probably going to to swap out to something else. You do bust funny pelican and occasionally clear hazards, but Lunala deletes it. Maybe I phrased it wrong earlier; exactly how are you using the mon besides burning physical attackers in most instances?

Let’s specify which set you are referring to.

Magic Bounce: Clear hazards to support your team, Burn anyone that you are not otherwise statusing for at least passive damage, and if they happen to use physical attacks that’s an added bonus.

Accumulate passive damage from the trap move + Burn to wear down foes that cannot heal, or have limited healing (Strength Sap).

Oftentimes, Binding moves serve to hurt those who cannot switch out, making it basically a wear-you-down wall.

If we replace Thunder Cage with Anchor Shot, doesn’t it function like many other Rapid Spin + Trap + Recovery walls? The fourth move being Burn doesn’t seem like a bad idea, as Magic Guard takes advantage of not being hurt by hazards, status, and opposing Binding moves.

With Anchor Shot paired with High-PP moves like Rapid Spin, you can stall out a trapped foe, and continue to handle Imposter, so they Struggle (I.e. Choice users).

I tried to cover its own weaknesses while supporting a team: Remove weakness to hazards while clearing them, removing threats off of its weaker Defense by Burning them, and trap the foes until they are PP-stalled (Anchor Shot) or accumulate passive damage (Thunder Cage)
***
As for the Quick Feet, it can removing abilities and use Topsy-Turvey to handle set-up to force switches, (pairs nicely with Hazards), and likely still outspeeds set-up after they set up, letting it punish with Burns rather than immediately have to click Haze to negate the power they used. Burn cancels out Swords Dance and is a permanent 50% down, while Haze only lasts until the foe starts setting up, and only if you can keep the Hazer alive.

With 154 base SpD, top notch Speed, a healing factor that negates 3 weaknesses, and a pseudo Fur Coat, you are a fast wall, especially when considering you negate their boosting abilities like -ate Boomburst Xerneas, and their moves like Belly Drum (you are faster than Unburden Dusk-Mane).

What doesn’t it impact? It can remove Regenerator, cancel out PHeal, -ates, punish set-up, provide passive damage, and remove its main weaknesses all while going first? It’s certainly an anti-meta response to meta threats, I don’t think you have to look at it individually, it is what it can handle partnered with the rest of your team.

I am sure it is clear that it can patch up some holes on teams.

Lugia is unique for being a fast-wall that can spread Burns consistently rather than being a dead-weight like we saw with other walls, like Cresselia, in the past more often that not.

 

[Champion Leon]

Just FYI: Protective Pads bypass Gulp Missile.

HuhShrug used it with Bolt Beak and it made it bypass it. I don’t know why since it works vs Special Moves, and non contact physical ones but it did.

Protective Pads > Gulp Missile.

EDIT:

Thank you. I am quoting you for the BH thread as evidence.

I thought I sensed a disturbance in the force but it was just someone saying the words "Gulp Missile".

I wasn't sure exactly what you meant here, so I just tested Pheromosa holding pads vs Gulp Missile, if you wanted something else, please let me know. (I also had to read the effects of Protective Pads like three times before I understood what it meant so there's a good chance you meant something else. )

In the case of both contact and non-contact moves, Gulp Missile still activated while Pheromosa was holding Protective Pads.

Contact:

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1358193073738555392

Non-contact:

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1358192600100995074

In the catridge, it isn’t supposed to act this way, it triggers even with Protective Pads, regardless of contact or non-contact.

The Immortal please correct coding. The Twitter links to a video of each scenario and shows how it activates no matter what.
With BH Open, it is imperative we resolve this so people don’t take advantage of the glitch in the meantime.
Your service is requested. :) ;) #Loreal!!!

 

[Gamebuster19901]

Isn't Zacian-Crowned supposed to be banned? If so, ban rusted sword as you can get Zacian-Crowned in battle if you add rusted sword to Zacian.