Metagame 1v1 Old Gens

[zo]

i agree drago is mid in ss but would still support action on it if a suspect ever happens, would be cool to finally see it gone and open up new team building options that dont need to use a fairy or corv/steela

 

[DenisTheMenace]

First a call to action on SS sleep while previously having voted DNB when the opportunity presented itself (spoiler: it’s always been uncompetitive ) , now this post about SS Drago (a non issue, this isn’t 2021 or w/e when it could’ve been somewhat justified), what a combo dio Cane

 

[Kanha Greninja]

its time to tell you guys my own thoughts about SS 1v1 ...
This guy is OP idk why it didnt get more usage in this PL but its very underrated it should be S- the fact that it has so many sets and each one of them is deadly in its own right makes it almost impossible to guess right at times
overrated. demote to S-
not much else to say the meta is balanced but i wouldnt say its stale yet its more that we havent found the correct pokemon to suspect yet
i dont agree with sleep suspect and definitely not with a Regidrago suspect maybe suspect any A+ rank mon other than primarina because other tapu fini would take its place
I love SS 1v1, Peace Out

 

[Synonimous]

Rises
Metagross-Mega (S- -> S)
This thing is a total beast right now. Really good into a Garde-focused metagame, and one of the few reliable answers to PZ.

Chomp Slayer

Metagross-Mega @ Metagrossite
Ability: Clear Body
EVs: 248 HP / 12 Atk / 240 Def / 8 Spe
Impish Nature
- Meteor Mash
- Bullet Punch
- Thunder Punch
- Ice Punch
3-0ed the last game of my last series with this. Favorable into CB garchomp with coverage into Gyara and Manaphy.

my choppa malicious

Metagross-Mega @ Metagrossite
Ability: Tough Claws
EVs: 176 HP / 80 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Protect
- Substitute
- Iron Head
- Earthquake
Beats Mawile more reliably and Heatran.

Manaphy (A+ -> S-)
This thing is just obnoxious. Even though sets have largely moved to sitrus stall, there are a ton of viable offensive sets. Just incredibly difficult to deal with setguesses usually required.

HPF Spex

Manaphy @ Choice Specs
Ability: Hydration
EVs: 144 HP / 224 SpA / 4 SpD / 136 Spe
Modest Nature
- Surf
- Ice Beam
- Energy Ball
- Hidden Power [Fire]

Fast Helmet

Manaphy @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Hydration
EVs: 12 HP / 244 Def / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Tail Glow
- Surf
- Hyper Beam
- Energy Ball

Lopunny (A- -> A)
This thing is just a great meta call rn, very consistent and encore gives you some neat tech options.

Low Sweep

Lopunny-Mega (M) @ Lopunnite
Ability: Scrappy
EVs: 172 HP / 148 Atk / 12 Def / 176 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Fake Out
- Giga Impact
- High Jump Kick
- Low Sweep
Just a little tech I didn't really get to show off. Just consistently beats zard and other bulkier speed control users.

Meloetta (A- -> A)
Melo is a bit one-dimensional, but it pulls that off really well. Very powerful, can even beat TR garde with the right evs. Has a niche over spex PZ with access to focus blast, which beats Heatran.

Standard Spex

Meloetta @ Choice Specs
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 240 HP / 248 SpA / 20 Spe
Modest Nature
- Hyper Beam
- Focus Blast
- Psyshock / Uproar
- Thunderbolt
I needed psychic move on the team I used it on for venu.

Gengar-Mega (B+ -> A-)
Other people have said it, but this guy is just super flexible and very good into a garde metagame.

Fast DisableTect

Gengar-Mega @ Gengarite
Ability: Shadow Tag
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Protect
- Disable
- Shadow Ball
- Substitute

Fat Counter

Gengar-Mega @ Gengarite
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Will-O-Wisp
- Counter
- Hex
- Taunt

Darkrai (UR -> A-/A)
Darkrai is doing fairly well right now, but a lack of overall set variety and large opportunity cost between sets can hold it back. Its biggest issue is that it's just not quite strong enough without spex and not quite bulky enough to be a massive issue.

AV (Best Non-Spex Set)

Darkrai @ Assault Vest
Ability: Bad Dreams
EVs: 248 HP / 48 Def / 20 SpA / 192 Spe
Modest Nature
- Dark Pulse
- Ice Beam
- Roar of Time
- Rock Tomb
Bulks Zard, outspeeds Chomp. Credit to Litt.

Chansey (B -> B+/A-)
Criminally underrated, very good in the current meta.

Standard

Chansey (F) @ Eviolite
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Bold Nature
- Growl
- Seismic Toss
- Counter
- Soft-Boiled
Growl is really good for pp stalling other stall mons and consistently beating non-SD/BD zard. You can slot toxic for Garde.

Archeops (B- -> B)
We didn't see too much of this brought, but it's super strong. Band is especially potent, just cleanly killing many top tier threats.

Band

Archeops @ Choice Band
Ability: Defeatist
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Head Smash
- Switcheroo
- Earthquake
- Rest

Entei (B- -> B)
This thing lines up very well into the meta right now. Zard, Garde, most Gross, Tini, Maw, Kyub, Spex Gren (setguess). Shouldn't be too high though because it's not that good outside of these matchups.

Blaziken (UR -> B)
This thing is pretty bad ngl. Even with its best sets, it's just a 50/50 machine. Don't try at home, kids.

Life Orb

Blaziken @ Life Orb
Ability: Speed Boost
EVs: 36 HP / 232 Atk / 4 SpD / 236 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Superpower
- Flare Blitz
- Protect
- Bulk Up

Zard and Garde are both obviously great right now, but I don't think either need a ban. Mew is in a similar place.

Drops
Gyarados-Mega (A+ -> A)
The victim of recent shifts in the metagame. The rise of Garde, bulkier Gross, Maw, wisp zard, etc. are all problematic.
Sableye-Mega (A -> A-)
I love this mon, but the shifts in the meta have NOT been kind. Fairies and fires are everywhere, leaving it in a bad spot.
Dragonite (A- -> B+)
This thing is not very flexible, with either just scarf or band as the only viable sets.
Hoopa-Unbound (A- -> B+)
WTF is this doing in A- tier.
Landorus-Therian (A- -> B+)
Similar issues to Dnite.
Medicham-Mega (A- -> B+)
Just not well-positioned rn, outclassed by lopunny as a fighting and spex pz as a breaker.
Diancie-Mega (A- -> B+/B)
Ass.
Ampharos-Mega (B+ -> B)
Most of the B tier and below is sort of unusable garbage so there should be a more complete overhaul imo at some point.

 

[luser]

tldr: SS is in a healthy spot and i am opposed to any tiering action taken on specific pokemon. if i had to choose, i would pick a cress suspect. I think a sleep ban would be an objective net positive for the tier but not essential.

tiering stuff (bans / unbans)

The only mon in the tier which had a winrate statistically significantly above 50%. In my eyes, it is by far the strongest mon in the tier. It has some very individually strong sets (scarf, kee, leftovers), and has some room for tech like resist berries, specs, helmet, etc. The best part about Cress is that as the cress user, your matchups are often extremely linear. Like glitched said there isn't much you can do to tech for Cress (outside of very very specific matchups, like healer aromatisse vs skill swap cress), so you can avoid a lot of the cheese which is present in the tier by midground picking cress.

Even though it is very strong, I do not think Cress warrants a ban. It is pretty easy to setguess on preview. Trying to slot in moves like moonblast, skill swap, and substitute is difficult, and its usually easy to spot these techs.


I strongly oppose any tiering action taken on this mon. If you look through the top 10 mons in usage, I would consider 8 of them to have viable sets which "beat" regidrago (all prim/fini/azu, most steela/meta, skill swap lefties cress, custap shifu-s, av landot). Beat is in quotation marks because nothing beats anything in ss - that's just part of the tier's identity and I don't think drago is particularly opressive in that regard.

I genuinely don't understand why people have a problem with regidrago. In order to "beat" cresselia with a mon in the top 10 usage, I would say you're limited to scarf fini, scarf meta, most volcarona, and max attack AV / roseli urshifu-s. Regidrago struggles against most steel and fairy types (two inherently good typings, even when not accounting for regidrago), while I personally view Cresselia as the reason why bug and dark types are ran at all. I don't know why people cite regidrago as limiting team compostions. There are so many splashable regidrago answers that I never have to think about it when building, and its reputation as a 2-1 machine is dubious.

I do not think drago adds anything positive to the tier but that is not grounds for a ban. It is not uncompetitive, it is not broken, and it is not overly centralizing.

(sleep) / (accupressure)
In an ideal world I would like to see sleep go. Yawn sylv sleep rolls most of the tier, being able to beat mons like ferro using LO without having to tech in fire moves. Venusaur is fine health wise as a sleep trap but its ability to randomly beat faster mons and abuse custap + sleep powder is annoying. I think yawn sylv is secretly broken but it hasn't been too oppressive in tournaments, so I understand if these problems are not worth the shake up to the tier.

My one major problem with ss tiering is that there are too many decisions that were a knee jerk reaction to some annoying ladderers. I do not understand why accupressure (unusably awful luck based move) was unanimously banned while moves like confuse ray or zap cannon (unusuably awful luck based moves) are allowed. By clicking accupressure, you are using up your turn to roll a 1/7 chance to hit evasion, and then get a 40% chance for the evasion to actually help you dodge. This is a 5.7% chance for the evasion from accupressure to matter. Compare that to stuff like sand veil / snow cloak, which has to a higher chance of evasion mattering, and also actively does some chip damage to your opponent, or moves like thunder wave, which have a much, much higher chance to result in game altering luck. Accupressure is an annoying blemish in the tiering and it would nice for it to be unbanned for consistency, or to see the weather evasion abilities banned alongside it under the umbrella of "evasion effects." Both lead to zero impact on the tier and only serve to make the banlist more consistent.

/ sacred fire
entei feels pretty manageable, although a little centralizing, in the builder, even if you assume it always burns. it's annoying but not worth banning.

(power construct)
Changed my mind about this and no longer think it would benefit the tier. I stil stand by my opinion that zyg-c wouldn't even be the best mon if it was reintroduced, but don't want to shake up the tier for the sake of shaking up the tier.

Thoughts on mons (outside of tiering)

sets

don't care enough to dig up evs

Kyurem @ Choice Band
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 12 HP / 252 Atk / 8 SpD / 236 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Outrage
- Icicle Spear
- Iron Head
- Rock Tomb

(Dragapult) @ Weakness Policy
Ability: Clear Body
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Adamant Nature
- Phantom Force
- Outrage
- Will-O-Wisp
- Disable

(Tyranitar) @ Mental Herb
Ability: Sand Stream
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Crunch
- Heavy Slam
- Earthquake
- Dragon Dance

(Haunter) @ Eviolite
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 216 HP / 140 Def / 152 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Reflect Type
- Encore
- Disable
- Shadow Ball

Obstagoon @ Choice Band
Ability: Guts
EVs: 20 HP / 228 Atk / 36 Def / 224 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Knock Off
- Gunk Shot
- Ice Punch
- Switcheroo

(Obstagoon) @ Flame Orb
Ability: Guts
EVs: 128 HP / 248 Atk / 32 SpD / 100 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Knock Off
- Gunk Shot
- Hone Claws
- Protect

Zapdos @ Custap Berry
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 SpA / 24 SpD / 232 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunderbolt
- Hurricane
- Heat Wave
- Endure

already talked about it. hard to build but it feels super easy to click with, and super difficult to click against


very good. beats zera + cress + normal fire matchups. volc + azu + water answer is a super easy core to build and has very consistent matchups across the board.


also good. Can cheese janky water/fairy sets and was always a mon I needed to be careful of in building.


also good. Band, physical WP, and Curse all felt good, but specs and non-outrage hex are kind of lackluster. Covers almost all of the tier across its different sets.


only mon I really discovered this pl. feels decent with choice switcheroo or guts as a dark type which can cheese a few fairies. Has some surprisingly deep coverage options


not checking last pl stats but i remember it also having a winrate in the 30s as well. utterly unusable mon. genuinely one of the worst mons in the tier. occupies the same spot in my mind as eleki - the mon you throw on to larp that you beat every top tier only to lose to prim or steela or get crit in some embarassing way


Broken on paper but each decision you make in setbuilding has such high opportunity cost, in addition to there naturally being a lot of 50/50s when piloting


Opposite of prim where you gain a lot of resistance to cheese in exchange for not having neat tools like encore. Performed much better than prim, and felt much better to build and click with.

/
i used to spam electrics on every team right after sv released. however, with the fall off of steela and kiss, and the consistent rise of wacan prim / chomp / rhyp / landot they feel worse and worse. zera really wants both av and band at the same time, while zapdos really needs 6 moveslots.


thanks to the entire megarays squad for helping me build, especially glitched deg and neo. Sorry for my performance during the second half of the season.

I'm probably ending my 1v1 journey here - thanks to everyone who made the past few years special. luser out

 

[zo]

The only mon in the tier which had a winrate statistically significantly above 50%. In my eyes, it is by far the strongest mon in the tier. It has some very individually strong sets (scarf, kee, leftovers), and has some room for tech like resist berries, specs, helmet, etc. The best part about Cress is that as the cress user, your matchups are often extremely linear. Like glitched said there isn't much you can do to tech for Cress (outside of very very specific matchups, like healer aromatisse vs skill swap cress), so you can avoid a lot of the cheese which is present in the tier by midground picking cress.

Even though it is very strong, I do not think Cress warrants a ban. It is pretty easy to setguess on preview. Trying to slot in moves like moonblast, skill swap, and substitute is difficult, and its usually easy to spot these techs.

agree with every point, i personally really like using it and honestly would be opposed to it leaving, feels spammable but not oppressive and god mus are few and far between

I strongly oppose any tiering action taken on this mon. If you look through the top 10 mons in usage, I would consider 8 of them to have viable sets which "beat" regidrago (all prim/fini/azu, most steela/meta, skill swap lefties cress, custap shifu-s, av landot). Beat is in quotation marks because nothing beats anything in ss - that's just part of the tier's identity and I don't think drago is particularly opressive in that regard.

I genuinely don't understand why people have a problem with regidrago. In order to "beat" cresselia with a mon in the top 10 usage, I would say you're limited to scarf fini, scarf meta, most volcarona, and max attack AV / roseli urshifu-s. Regidrago struggles against most steel and fairy types (two inherently good typings, even when not accounting for regidrago), while I personally view Cresselia as the reason why bug and dark types are ran at all. I don't know why people cite regidrago as limiting team compostions. There are so many splashable regidrago answers that I never have to think about it when building, and its reputation as a 2-1 machine is dubious.

I do not think drago adds anything positive to the tier but that is not grounds for a ban. It is not uncompetitive, it is not broken, and it is not overly centralizing.

i think the reason its presence as a warping builder threat has gone unnoticed is because its just too hard to use teams that lose to drago, the presence of drago on anyones usage instantly gatekeeps certain mons at risk of making previews incredibly linear and arguably luck based, but like whatever we can let it go its been years. i just think its objectively bad for the tier and a fairly uninteractive pokemon in what is otherwise an incredibly interactive metagame

(sleep) / (acupressure)
In an ideal world I would like to see sleep go. Yawn sylv sleep rolls most of the tier, being able to beat mons like ferro using LO without having to tech in fire moves. Venusaur is fine health wise as a sleep trap but its ability to randomly beat faster mons and abuse custap + sleep powder is annoying. I think yawn sylv is secretly broken but it hasn't been too oppressive in tournaments, so I understand if these problems are not worth the shake up to the tier.

My one major problem with ss tiering is that there are too many decisions that were a knee jerk reaction to some annoying ladderers. I do not understand why accupressure (unusably awful luck based move) was unanimously banned while moves like confuse ray or zap cannon (unusuably awful luck based moves) are allowed. By clicking accupressure, you are using up your turn to roll a 1/7 chance to hit evasion, and then get a 40% chance for the evasion to actually help you dodge. This is a 5.7% chance for the evasion from accupressure to matter. Compare that to stuff like sand veil / snow cloak, which has to a higher chance of evasion mattering, and also actively does some chip damage to your opponent, or moves like thunder wave, which have a much, much higher chance to result in game altering luck. Accupressure is an annoying blemish in the tiering and it would nice for it to be unbanned for consistency, or to see the weather evasion abilities banned alongside it under the umbrella of "evasion effects." Both lead to zero impact on the tier and only serve to make the banlist more consistent.

agree w all this yawn is super ridiculous. sylv is literally top 5 with optimal yawn turns and even with just 2 can flip some ludicrous mus, pulling wins out of your ass on 33% chances is frankly uncompetitive and obnoxious and id love to see sleep as a whole go. a bigger discussion on this would be great

i can post ss thoughts + a vr later down the line, suspect sleep

 

[RTM]

short post just wanna get some general ss thoughts out

getting better -
- this guy can really beat whoever the hell he wants without much opportunity cost (run dragon move + eq and you're sweet)
- more reliable prim at the expense of being able to finesse mus. versatile but many of its counters are fairly concrete
- may seem like a random pick but so so super good into meta its insane

getting worse-
- people are starting to recognise which teams run which pult and generally can setguess it better now which was the best thing pult had going for it
- same as above. Also gets teched by the quirky av user on every other team
- no one likes bringing it because you're forced into a very predictable team structure if you want to use it
- being underrated a lot but can be hard to bring rn

some mons i found to be good -
- i was looking for an av mon that can boost stats or lower opps stats to beat cress. aside from that it can finesse a decent amount and has options like power whip for prim.

av

Centiskorch @ Assault Vest
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 112 HP / 144 Atk / 252 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Skitter Smack
- Fire Lash
- Power Whip
- Flare Blitz

- gets nice mus with band and has a very useful matchup spread, not much more to say

some mons i love -
- genuinely one of the best mons in the tier, can do a lot with the small kit it has
- the versatility stated above. I won with specs in pl (bad). use your ev sliders and you'll see how busted this thing can be. one of the best in the meta imo
- building with him is very easy, he's usually a 2nd or 3rd mon when i build. very versatile and can finesse a lot of its counters or expose bad sets with band
- yeah having a perfect cress matchup 1st or 2nd slot is awesome. beats a lot and switching moves beats a lot of other things

sleep -
i'm indifferent about sleep, it's never really an issue until people start making up scenarios. its hard to justify bringing usually because of its inconsistency, and nothing super fishes for mus with it. i'd support a suspect but probably dnb.

 

[Here Comes Team Charm!]

Random thoughts on SS mons.


I mean we know what's been said about cress, you kinda want encore + speed control + okay bulk + good offenses and/or setup to reliably check this which is quite the laundry list, or you just shrug and split off a separate check for rest/trick/skill swap/moonblast sets. I don't think this mon needs immediate tiering action but I do find myself wondering what the meta would look like with it gone.


About half my steela teams have a second flying-type on there which is kinda hilarious, but what's that typing actually reliably beating? I feel like this really fell off or at least became notably awkward to build with in a world with subseed bulu and reversal ursh and smack down landorus: losing to cress and all the mons ppl run because of cress doesn't help of course. Idk I used to be a big fan but I think this notably fell off and I'm not really seeing anyone else talking about it.


Yeah this is kinda silly, great speed and a lot of space to cheese stuff, I'm pretty sure even fini is techable (WP rock tomb eq sd gets you a long end of the way there). Feel like I used this in lots of different contexts but it was mostly at home with water/fairies (SS moment). Scale Shot is a move that hits 2 to 5 times.


Objectively kinda dumb because any pz matchup tends to come down to both sides having to setguess followed by a 50/50. Saw less of it this PL than I expected, used it once myself and didn't feel like it added much. Is probably getting armchaired into seeming better than it is.


Probably underexplored, ppl forget this can run the same encore/icy wind thing as prim with only slightly worse base speed and the cool upside of not getting shut down by CM lefties.


Never feels like it works, would be so good if it had a few extra moveslots. I actually like zendarm more rn but that's mostly bc regular gdarm is hell to build with. Like half my teams with this mon have zapdos as their second.


Not much to say here I just like those funny little guys a lot. 4th move on smash crustle lowkey completely free and you can fit a lot of stuff in there as I said in my set dump post (Pjab for bulu, toxic for charm stallers, solar blade for water/grounds if you really have to)


Toge has always tried to complement its so-so consistency with great special bulk, but the current crop of special powerhouses all have ways around it, its encore shenanigans are hardly unique, it straight-up needs to run one of its worst sets to even have a shot vs chomp, just not all that good! I know it has an okay winrate but by virtue of togekiss being togekiss its winrate is always going to be higher than its actual quality would suggest.


Probably the lowest ranked mon that can beat everything with the right tech, but opportunity cost is w/e so in practice everyone runs a fairy or a steel and you got this covered. Used specs about half the time and various other sets as one-offs, sometimes put a faster spread on there to get a reliable venu answer, also experimented with bad 4th moves (tomb for volcarona, hyper voice for stall entei).


Specs custap yawn are very good sets even if they have a rightful reputation for being iffy on the prediction front, and building wih sylv is easy mode if you pick the right partner (pult, any ground, most fires, I'm genuinely a big fan of sylveon-thundurus).


Agreed this is the best fire in the tier. Quiver dance on those stats is kinda busted, good set diversity, good ability to tech stuff. Big fan of the mental herb set; I don't know if I'd call it the best volc set but it's definitely the one that fit my threatlists most reliably.


Best flying type in the tier tbh (Lando and Steela aren't flying types though tbh this might be better anyway). Insane offenses combo, great coverage in heat wave, like five ways to break down stall. Bad at teching its counters but 90% of the time running convoluted tech sets is a trap anyway. I don't care hurricane is 'cripplingly inaccurate', your opponent is forced to pretend it isn't so you might as well do the same.


Sometimes I get really excited about haxorus having all these cool options in band scale shot or choiced counter or ddance and then I don't manage to build with it and then I go to a tournament and nobody else has built with it. Rivalry haxorus 4 cress when.


Feels like it has a very specific role on a very specific sort of team and beyond that it's just kinda languishing. Used to be more of a fan but it's notably seen less innovation than most other mons I'm talking about here.


I'm so glad this exists just for team diversity reasons. Pult/shifu/cress is quite the trio to reliably (you know what i mean) beat as a nonfairy, some options despite the atrocious movepool, yeah idk I just like it.


Typing is kind of nuts and it's a good cress+drago+gross answer that has quite some space in its moveset/EVs/item to grab other matchups as needed, feels underrated!


Another underrated B-, that bulk and attack stat are stupid and it's easy to dismiss a lot of matchups on typing before you realize this can just take a hit and punch through them.


80% winrate and definitely deserves more attention. Water/electric with levitate is a busted type, killing the many cores that take a waterfairy and slap on a fire or steel is great rn. I'll admit it doesn't have much to offer except solid core matchups, but so is entei and that mon is ranked A.


Another pretty good winrate, consider it!!! The typing is great and there's a lot of tricks this can pull + funny diamond.


Anyway out of ideas I might mention something if I think of it later, uh rank diancie higher thank u.

 

[neomon]

BW 1v1 Survey time
https://forms.gle/UetxSmnGphoTcmTW6

Let us know your opinion on the current BW 1v1 Metagame. Survey will stay open until next sunday the 15th of September until 8pm GMT+2

 

[RADU]

thank you neomon I'll take it from here.
Now that PL is over the ORAS Council has also decied to hold a tiering survey to gauge thoughts on the state of the current metagame. You can find the form down below.

ORAS 1v1 Tiering Survey
https://forms.gle/5rCUdbe3SWmAm1e3A

The deadline for the survey is Sunday, September 15th at 11:59 GMT+2. Please submit your answers before then.

 

[zo]

ss 1v1 vr see you in wc
(everything below b- unordered)

 

[DEG]

BW meta thoughts + resources revamp are out.

BW 1v1 Podcast by DEG, LittEleven, and Neomon:

New setcomp+ EVs explanations doc inside: https://pokepast.es/45454ef7f718a9aa

PL BW stats + Personal VRs: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...CimrA1Y-mdX4/edit?gid=266047128#gid=266047128

Hope to see you playing BW 1v1! We are also aware some sets may be missing, so feel free to let us know what you want added or any other edit you wish to do!

 

[RADU]

hello good morning and afternoon and here I am presenting the results of the ORAS 1v1 survey! the deadline was a bit too long as we haven't been receiving many replies lately so we decided to close it early so we can move on with metagame action ideally before ORAS Cup begins.

you can find reference to last year's post-PL7 survey here, and the post-ogpl2 survey here

let's start with the two general questions
On a scale of 1-10, how much do you enjoy the current ORAS metagame?

With an average of 5.46, it seems tier enjoyability has gone down compared to last year's survey. The qualified players that responded to the survey also feel the same way, with an average of 5.60, only slightly higher than the general result.

On a scale of 1-10, how competitive and balanced do you find the current metagame?

While numbers did still go down compared to last year's survey, the playerbase still acknowledges ORAS 1v1 as not entirely competitive or with unbalanced elements, with an average of 5.85. The qualified players have a slightly more optimistic opinion, with a solid 6.60, meaning at the very least stronger players feel rewarded when playing the tier.

Pokémon questions
Now onto the big boys, reported below in a table for convenience

Pokémon​	General	Qualified
Charizard-Mega-X	3.4​	3.8​
Gardevoir-Mega	3.6​	3.6​
Metagross-Mega	1.9​	1.6​
Victini	2.1​	1.8​
Mew	2.8​	2.6​
Unbanning Blaziken-Mega	3.2​	3.4​

As currently is, the playerbase agrees that both Charizard-Mega-X and Gardevoir-Mega are a similarly high degree of problematic. With the general playerbase ranking Gardevoir as more problematic while the qualified playerbase pointing their finger at Charizard, it's not immediately clear which one we should focus on first; the council will be discussing at length on that point. Nonetheless, expect tiering action on one or both of these before ORAS Cup begins.
A close eye will also be kept on Mew, who's ranked a decently close third behind our most problematic threats.

After the reintroduction of Blaziken in the tier, paired with its low usage and viability, it seems people are generally favorable towards also reintroducing Mega Blaziken to the tier. While this is not high on our list of priorities, it will certainly be topic of discussion in the near future.

Open questions
Other Pokemon that were suggested to be looked at were Manaphy and Charizard-Mega-Y. Both of these Pokemon will be kept in consideration in future surveys and discussion about tiering action, rest assured.



Also gonna use this post to talk about ORAS Resource Updates:
After the reconstruction of the councils, our ORAS Council members are Felucia (Old Gens Leader acting as interim Leader), RADU, DezShizzels, torterraxx and Synonimous. As we've made it clear in the Discord, we are open to including other competent members who show that they are active and willing to contribute to ORAS 1v1 tiering and resources.

VR Shifts
Manaphy A+ -> S-
Mew A+ -> S-
Slowbro-Mega A -> A+
Gyarados-Mega A+ -> A
Lopunny-Mega A- -> A
Altaria-Mega A -> A-
Darkrai UR -> A-
Gengar-Mega B+ -> A-
Venusaur-Mega A -> A-
Chansey B -> B+
Diancie-Mega A- -> B+
Dragonite A- -> B+
Haxorus B -> B+
Hoopa-Unbound A- -> B+
Landorus-Therian A- -> B+
Medicham-Mega A- -> B+
Registeel B -> B+
Rhyperior B -> B+
Togekiss A- -> B+
Tyranitar-Mega B -> B+
Whimsicott B -> B+
Ampharos-Mega B+ -> B
Aggron B- -> B
Archeops B- -> B
Entei B- -> B
Latias-Mega B+ -> B
Magnezone B+ -> B
Alakazam-Mega C+ -> B-
Azumarill C -> B-
Blaziken UR -> B-
Diancie B -> B-
Empoleon C+ -> B-
Ferrothorn C+ -> B-
Jirachi B -> B-
Manectric-Mega C+ -> B-
Quagsire UR -> B-
Terrakion B -> B-
Blastoise-Mega B- -> C+
Clefable B- -> C+
Suicune B- -> C+
Swampert-Mega C -> C+
Blissey C- -> C
Durant C- -> C
Golem C+ -> C
Raikou C+ -> C
Swampert-Mega C+ -> C
Talonflame C+ -> C
Banette-Mega D -> C-
Shedinja D -> C-
Emboar C -> UR
Excadrill C- -> D
Infernape C- -> D
Houndoom-Mega C- -> UR
Rotom-Heat C -> D
Celebi C -> UR
Jumpluff C -> UR
Vivillon C -> UR
Reuniclus C- -> UR
Kingdra D -> UR
Klefki D -> UR
Conkeldurr D -> UR


New Samples
We are still submitting and voting on new samples, but here are three sample submissions that already got accepted.


Cover Fire by RADU


Haunted evenings by torterraxx


Infinite damage by torterraxx


We're also currently working a revamped Set Compendium with EV Explanations, stay tuned for that.

that's all folks!

 

[neomon]

good evening, it is time to present the survey results of bw.

Metagame Enjoyment

7,6 average, the metagame is enjoyable for most of the playerbase

Metagame Competitiveness

7,1 average, outside of two exceptions, the general consensus seems to be that the metagame is mostly balanced and rewarding

Pokemon specific ratings (average score)

Pokemon	general votes​	''qualified'' voters​
Genesect	3,4	3,56
Thundurus	3,6	3,63
Snorlax	3,1	3,1
Manaphy	1,9	1,8
Volcarona	1,6	1,5
Cresselia	1,9	1,8

the votes between general and qualified playerbase dont diverge much. Genesect and Thundurus stand out as the most overwhelming threats in the metagame. Potential tiering action on these 2 mons will be discussed in the BW 1v1 Tiering Council and if necessary put into motion before the start of BW 1v1 Cup (for 1v1 Classic).

Other results of the survey
in the two questions at the end of the survey the participants were asked if any pokemon that were not mentioned could be perceived as problematic: Meloetta, Swellow and Scolipede were mentioned, these pokemon will be included in a future tiering survey

as for general wishes/concerns/feedback: a wish for a new bw setcomp was voiced, this is already being worked on by multiple community members and a finalized version will be released around the time sign ups for BW cup go up.

VR Voting Slate
Council has voted on a brand new VR slate

Genesect S- -> S
Thundurus S- -> S
Snorlax S -> S-

Metagross A -> A+
Conkeldurr A+ -> A
Haxorus A- -> A
Keldeo A -> A-
Latios A -> A-
Mienshao B+ -> A-
Porygon-Z A -> A-
Shaymin A -> A-
Tyranitar A -> A-

Ferrothorn B -> B+
Heatran A- -> B+
Raikou A- -> B+
Registeel B -> B+
Serperior B -> B+
Zapdos A- -> B+
Arcanine B+ -> B
Chansey B- -> B
Entei B- -> B
Gyarados B+ -> B
Kyurem B+ -> B
Terrakion B+ -> B
Celebi B -> B-
Tornadus B -> B-
Tornadus-Therian S -> B-

Aerodactyl B- -> C+
Hariyama B- -> C+
Hydreigon B- -> C+
Sableye B- -> C+
Swampert B- -> C+
Venusaur B- -> C+
Gengar C+ -> C
Heracross C+ -> C
Mamoswine C+ -> C
Alakazam D -> C-
Archeops C+ -> C-
Hippowdon C -> C-
Landorus C+ -> C-
Scizor C -> C-
Virizion C -> C-

Blissey C -> D
Breloom C- -> D
Gastrodon C -> D
Kingdra C- -> D
Krookodile C- -> D
Moltres C -> D
Porygon2 C+ -> D
Quagsire C- -> D
Reuniclus C- -> D
Salamence C -> D
Starmie C+ -> D

Cinccino C- -> UR
Durant C -> UR
Emboar D -> UR
Cobalion D -> UR
Roserade D -> UR
Bronzong D -> UR
Dusclops D -> UR
Smeargle D -> UR
Politoed D -> UR
Togetic C -> UR
Gardevoir C- -> UR

Sample Teams

in the latest vote 4 samples teams were approved with a 4/5 majority (these will be added to the op shortly)

by neomon I think
by DEG
by Urfgurgle
by RADU

 

[Felucia]

Following results of the above tiering survey, the ORAS 1v1 council has decided to suspect test Mega Charizard X

ORAS 1v1 Mega Charizard X Suspect Test

This suspect test will consist of a brief period of metagame discussion on this thread, followed by closed voting by qualified voters. The qualified voters are chosen as follows:

• Members of the ORAS 1v1 Council (as Old Gens leader standing in, this does not include me)
• Players who played at least 3 ORAS series in 1v1 PL VIII, and won at least 1 of those series.
• Players who played at least 3 ORAS series in 1v1 OGPL II, and won at least 1 of those series.

To get the tiering action done in timely fashion so that people can start preparing for the ORAS cup of 1v1 classic, we will not be holding suspect tours for this suspect. While I'm here I want to note future suspect requirements across all old gens are planned to be similar, but may not completly line up with the above as we work on using standardised metrics across all old gen suspects.

With these in place, the voter list is as follows:

Qualified voters

RADU
DezShizzels
torterraxx
Synonimous
Mubs
Inkreativ
SEROO
SwordIsBored
LittEleven
RTM
Taka
zioziotrip

Anyone not listed above is still free to chime in for discussion on Mega Charizard X to help inform those who can vote. This discussion period will run until Wednesday September 18th, 18:00 UTC. After this, qualified voters can cast their votes.

Voting process

• After the above discussion deadline, qualified voters open a Smogon conversation with Felucia
• In this conversation they vote on banning Mega Charizard X, using the following format

  Mega Charizard X: [b]Ban[/b]
  OR
  Mega Charizard X: [b]Do not ban[/b]

• Only the first vote counts, and voting messages may not be edited. Subsequent votes or edited messages will be ignored
• Mega Charizard X will be banned if a supermajority of 60% pro-ban voters is reached.
• Votes are published after a verdict is reached.

Voting will go through the non-tc blind voting forum

 

[RADU]

I've discussed about at length in the 1v1 server, so I'll be brief. I'll be voting ban in the upcoming suspect test.

It has been oppressive in ORAS 1v1 ever since its inception, only getting stronger and stronger with every tournament. Unlike other top metagames, that have cycled through top tiers and mons have lost and regained the S rank various times, zardX has never once been knocked off the throne as the #1 ORAS 1v1 Pokemon, despite constant attempts from the tier to adapt to its strength.

Let's explore how nearly unbeatable this guy is, by considering 4 main "sets" (I'm counting slashes as their own thing because the other sets require actual EV manipulation to work while these last moves can just be slapped on almost any dragon dance set with little to no consequence). Don't forget to consider that zard also has a lot of other different sets and move combinations, to just fuck around and decide which 2/3rds of the tier he wants to beat at any given time. Anyway, here's the four:

1. Flame Charge Swords Dance
2. Jolly Dragon Dance Substitute
3. Will-O-Wisp / Counter Dragon Dance Max Defence
4. Slashes (Endure / Belly Drum / Brick Break on any dd set)

Spoiler

S
Gardevoir-Mega 1

S-
Manaphy 1/2 unreliable, believe me I did a lot of calcing and testing
Metagross-Mega any
Mew same as manaphy (they run the exact same set pretty much)
Victini any mostly

A+
Greninja 4 vs specs, 3 vs band (which is supposed to be the reliable into zard set)
Mawile-Mega any
Slowbro-Mega 4 unless foul play, but giving up on scald/demon sets so annoying

A
Gyarados-Mega 3
Heatran 4 unless you are rocky helmet or chople berry wait til people pull up with eq zardx (they can since heatran is like never air balloon now)
Kyurem-Black 2 vs band, 3 vs scarf, pepega haban if you wanna beat 0 pokemon
Lopunny-Mega any max hp, 3 vs the low sweep set
Porygon-Z 4
Sableye-Mega any mostly

A-
Altaria-Mega you have to be pretty much exactly dd cguard facade roost, other sets can lose to 3. special hp rock is also loadable but cmon.
Darkrai 50/50 with specs, the anti-darkrai set needs rocky helmet, otherwise max def counter on rock tomb into outrage tanks rt into roar of time and kills.
Garchomp 3 vs cb, sub rock tomb sd can still just lose to max defense clicking mega outrage, or non-mega flame charge into mega(or not) flame charge forces a 5050 and breaks sub.
Genesect any
Gengar-Mega any
Meloetta 2 or 4 has to 5050
Venusaur-Mega 1, 2 or 4. You can technically beat 1 with charm leech seed synthesis and perfect play but its not a good set

B+
Chansey needs growl for 2, charm for 1, loses to 4
Deoxys-Speed specs loses to spdef, situational set that is similar to endure so I didn't include it, otherwise it still has a disadvantageous roll against most mixed bulk sets. stall can lose to anything idk this guy deos sucks
Diancie-Mega

this is our most reliable answer bruh
Dragonite 3
Haxorus 3
Hoopa-Unbound any
Landorus-Therian i think there's like a lum set that wins against all. good job landorus therian on running absolute masterclass perfect set for it and barely coming out on top reliable
Medicham-Mega speedtie vs 2, L vs 3
Registeel any sort of
Rhyperior 3 prolly unless rhyp clicks rock wrecker but u get subbed on and cry
Serperior any
Sylveon sylveon!!! win the 50/50!!!!
Togekiss encore on sub, twave on flare blitz, you randomly can still lose to dd zardx being faster and air slash doing 0 damage. Not reliable
Tyranitar-Mega 4, i think 3 too tbh
Volcanion uhh this is never reliable idt, scarf loses to dd specs loses to outrage
Volcarona any
Whimsicott somehow this is the most reliable zardx answer out there with occa

if there's some inaccuracies sue me, zard MUs are annoying af to figure out and I don't think it's entirely relevant whether gyaradosmega can run random curse and win vs the wisp zard MU, the guy is still nearly unbeatable.

If you want to be reliable into zardx, you have to bring one of 5!! Pokemon, and they also have their own fringe ways to lose to common sets. You can say I cheated by condensing max def to both counter and wisp, or putting all three relevant slashes on the last set. The reality is that it doesn't matter, they are ALL real, all of them. Sylveon lost to mf endure flame charge zardx in PL, and I think I alone have built with every single other set that is available out there, maybe not steel wing cause diancie was hard to build with it I don't like it at all atm. And realistically these counters are so absolutely fine tuned for zardX it is not even funny; it is not normal for darkrai to run max hp rocky helmet in any universe ever, lum berry landot should mainly be a lure/niche set, and mega altaria should not be running dragon dance cguard roost facade come on now. And every single other mon on this list has bent itself backwards and onwards again trying to tech zard. Max speed max defense rocky helmet barrier/acid armor mew and manaphy are expressly made for zardx and arent even reliable!! rhyp's entire issue before was that it couldn't be reliable into zardy due to solar beam, and now it's STILL unreliable. We've come through so many years of development and development, removed zardy so that zardx could be predictable, reintroduced a guy like darkrai that is one of the best counters of it we've ever seen, and zardx still hasn't show everything its got.

It's been way too long since ORAS has been in this state, it's gone through multiple bans and the tier has only gotten worse, the meta can develop around a broken threat only up to a certain point. The zardY ban was a hail mary that didn't work and it's time to finally see how much ORAS can develop as a tier without zardx. People can go back and forth about how technically beatable and manageable zardx is, and yes, technically under this state the tier is playable, but it would be just so much better if we could explore it with a less broken hegemony from zard towards other mons.

Ban ZardX

 

[Felucia]

Following results of the above tiering survey, the ORAS 1v1 council has decided to suspect test Mega Charizard X

ORAS 1v1 Mega Charizard X Suspect Test

This suspect test will consist of a brief period of metagame discussion on this thread, followed by closed voting by qualified voters. The qualified voters are chosen as follows:

• Members of the ORAS 1v1 Council (as Old Gens leader standing in, this does not include me)
• Players who played at least 3 ORAS series in 1v1 PL VIII, and won at least 1 of those series.
• Players who played at least 3 ORAS series in 1v1 OGPL II, and won at least 1 of those series.

To get the tiering action done in timely fashion so that people can start preparing for the ORAS cup of 1v1 classic, we will not be holding suspect tours for this suspect. While I'm here I want to note future suspect requirements across all old gens are planned to be similar, but may not completly line up with the above as we work on using standardised metrics across all old gen suspects.

With these in place, the voter list is as follows:

Qualified voters

RADU
DezShizzels
torterraxx
Synonimous
Mubs
Inkreativ
SEROO
SwordIsBored
LittEleven
RTM
Taka
zioziotrip

Anyone not listed above is still free to chime in for discussion on Mega Charizard X to help inform those who can vote. This discussion period will run until Wednesday September 18th, 18:00 UTC. After this, qualified voters can cast their votes.

Voting process

• After the above discussion deadline, qualified voters open a Smogon conversation with Felucia
• In this conversation they vote on banning Mega Charizard X, using the following format

  Mega Charizard X: [b]Ban[/b]
  OR
  Mega Charizard X: [b]Do not ban[/b]

• Only the first vote counts, and voting messages may not be edited. Subsequent votes or edited messages will be ignored
• Mega Charizard X will be banned if a supermajority of 60% pro-ban voters is reached.
• Votes are published after a verdict is reached.

Voting will go through the non-tc blind voting forum

Voting is now open you can find the voting post at this link. Do not vote if you're not on the list of qualified voters.

 

[neomon]

In response to the BW 1v1 Tiering survey the council has decided to suspect test Thundurus.
The eligible voter pool will consist of the following:

1. Members of the BW 1v1 Council (neomon DEG RADU Taka SuperMemeBroz )
2. Players that played more than 3 weeks and got more than one win in OGPL II (AlyssaVGC autumn )
3. Players that played more than 3 weeks and got more than one win in 1v1PL VIII (Palestine dreepy QWILY LpZ Opchurtle100 PA )
4. Players that win a suspect tour (Aliss Murm )

There will be two suspect tours:

1. Saturday, Sept. 21st 2024 at 10:00pm GMT, hosted by bern
2. Sunday, Sept. 22nd 2024 at 10:00am GMT, hosted by Akeras

The tours will be hosted on smogtours.psim.us as usual and will be linked in the 1v1 PS! room as well as the Official discord server. The tours will be Single Elimination Bo5 Format.
The winner of a tour will be eligeble to vote.
The voting will commence from: 8pm GMT+2 Wednesday, Sept. 26th - 8pm GMT+2, Friday Sept 28th and will occur in a blind voting thread.

While there will be time to discuss this suspect test, I want to kick off the hopefully vivid discussion by showcasing some of Thundurus' common sets and try to explain the impact they have on the metagame.

SubTox

Toxic Stall 1 (Thundurus) @ Custap Berry
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 248 HP / 32 Atk / 108 Def / 120 SpD
Careful Nature
- Toxic
- Substitute
- Protect
- Fly

Toxic Stall 2 (Thundurus) @ Leftovers
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 176 HP / 80 SpA / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Protect
- Substitute
- Toxic
- Thunderbolt

Most commonly used for a set that combines the usage of Substitute + Toxic + Protect stall alongside its Prankster ability that allows it to use its support moves with priority its a menace to kill unless specifically teched for. Due to this set Choice Band Snorlax has evolved into running Immunity as its standard ability to be reliable as a Thundurus answer. Furthermore due to its ability it isnt required to run any speed on Thundurus. In consequence Thundurus can run almost maximum bulk on its SubTox sets which allows it to cleanly best all electric types due to always living a hit with HP to spare. It has to choose between a physical and special set, which keep a lot of its matchups but can be advantagous for more specific matchups. The Fly set pasted above allows it to reliably beat sawk for example while the Thunderbolt set gains a positive matchup on the metagames common Water-types such as Manaphy and Jellicent.

Charge

Electric Gem 1 (Thundurus) @ Electric Gem
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 240 HP / 100 Def / 96 SpA / 64 SpD / 8 Spe
Timid Nature
- Charge
- Thunderbolt / Thunder
- Taunt
- Hidden Power [Flying] / Grass Knot / Substitute / Knock Off

Electric Gem 2 (Thundurus) @ Electric Gem
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 216 HP / 4 Def / 128 SpD / 160 Spe
Timid Nature
- Charge
- Thunderbolt / Thunder
- Taunt
- Hidden Power [Flying] / Grass Knot / Substitute

Charge sets aim to live a hit and return the favor with a doubled-in-power electric move. Thanks to its ability, Thundurus can use Charge first in almost any scenario which can in the case of the second set even make it live 2 super effective moves like two scarf genesect Ice Beams and KOing in return.

Choice Specs

Bulky Choice Specs (Thundurus) (M) @ Choice Specs
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 12 HP / 252 Def / 12 SpA / 232 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 30 HP / 2 Atk / 30 Def / 30 SpA / 30 SpD
- Thunderbolt / Thunder
- Hidden Power [Flying] / [Fire]
- Grass Knot
- Focus Blast

While it's the least common set this set has also seen competitive play being able to use its surprise effect to still beat Steel-types like the Charge set but strike with immediate power against Rock-types that don't expect to be OHKO'd like Rhyperior or Tyranitar.

The combination of these three sets makes Thundurus a centralizing threat in the builder and on preview and therefore it is considered by many to be worth a suspect test.

 

[Felucia]

Not to take away from the BW suspect but Mega Charizard X is banned from ORAS 1v1

 

[DEG]

it is true i ranked thundurus as broken in my last video but in the current meta state i do not believe it is 100% broken in practice, just theoretically. if i vote ban it's because i'm afraid we'll use this suspect (if it gets dnb) as precedent to not suspect it in the future, i do see it being broken in some future metagame but not solidly broken rn.

it is true it has a lot of sets and toxic sub / charge tbolt sets is enough to alternate between beating everything bar steels and steels depending on preview but i don't see it that hard to setread on preview and both have opportunity cost. the specs set is lowkey broken alongside the others and this is where we're talking theory. i haven't seen much specs thundy tbh so basing its scary factor over unused sets is actually icky. if we ignore the specs sets there's actually a lot of mons that actually just wins without much annoyance, see; rock-types like rhyp, crustle, ttar, other mons like heatran, entei, arcanine can also win, Haxorus and Garchomp have great tools to counter it, immunity lax, thundy-t have good odds, raikou+rest too. it can't beat all genesect and all metagross in one set, if it foregoes tbolt, the toxic set loses to rest mana/cune. if its not taunt it can lose to stall+rest, registeel has good odds etcetc.

it can def. adapt to these mons with its other sets but it still hasn't and it's just theory now lol. i don't think its v broken rn and i don't see it as priority. ill think about it, but if i vote ban it's only cause i'm afraid the dnb will block any potential action in the near future.

v rushed suspects for both oras and bw, i don't like.

+ i have a problem with all that old gens tiering that has happened and how the bw suspect tours happened, i have solutions but won't talk about them here, just ringing the bell.

 

[Lumii]

voting ban bc you're scared that dnb would stop any future tiering action on thundy seems like a really bad reason to do it but w/e

Bigger thing is that I agree with deg here. I'm not an oras player, but as the classic host, I very much dislike the fact that the reason given for the lack of suspect tours for oras was due to oras cup being soon, when there's still an additional week until Round 1 is posted.

I don't have reqs for BW and whatever given I was expertly gatekept from voting by the requirements for reqs and how the suspect live tours were scheduled, but if I did have reqs, I'd be voting DNB on Thundy. DEG covered pretty much all my thoughts on the matter, and I still think that Specs Thundy is incredibly easy to setguess.

I do wish that we do more Live Tours for suspects in the future, and potentially would like to see some sort of mini Live Tour Series type qualification metric for suspect tests in the future.

 

[LittEleven]

as a fellow person who was "gatekept" from reqs despite winning/making runner up of the only two bw indivs in the last year despite it being effectively the same meta mons wise, i'd also like to share my opinion

thundurus effectively performs very extreme role compression and has some degree of indistinguishability between toxic sets and charge sets. specs sets usually act as lures so they are more readable and it has a worse blanket mu spread, so that's less brought, really.

to non bw players, the thing that's fundamentally broken about sub in this generation is that no moves actually go through sub, sound moves don't in this generation, and that makes thundurus force you into either koing it or have to rely on multihit to beat it, and makes it a soft speed trap with the highest speed tier because of prankster, while being able to run other sets naturally.

counterplay to thund is not so straightforward outside e.g bring immunity band lax (can be lured by specs if lazy, clicking giga impact on a thundurus requires the hard set read i.e giga impacting the mon that almost always runs sub; and if you don't you get 2x focus blasted, in practice it's a warping dynamic but on paper it's always with the lax player to win), rest mons (passive mons like cress (+ get taunted to stop their boosting, active ones e.g melo have to avoid losing multiple 50/50s to rest), specific concessions like dual chop on dragons with sd sets etc. the jaboca set usually covers common sets of its most popular counterpicks (thunder for crustle, grass knot for rhyp), cb tar loses to specs focus blast, so on. being naturally "immune" to trick through prankster also stops a lot of possible counterplay by decent mons.

each set has concessions of it's own, but thundurus naturally pairs well with most pokemon in the higher end of the vr through the virtue of being the best electric in the tier, being able to stop water types regardless of set, almost always having favorable mus; it almost completely outshines the other electric types in that aspect, with stuff like zap thundy-t raikou all having small niches to run them. it's also naturally hard to stack answers to, because the mons that can hardcore beat thundurus are few and far between. some more neutral matchups (e.g thundurus vs strong fighting type) also can come down to double protect fishing e.g or grinding out turns of low accuracy moves in hopes of a miss.

from the perspective of a builder the way you beat thundurus is by hedging your bets and designing your team to be strong enough to beat the rogue sets while running a main counter, and reading/clicking into whatever lures the opponent may bring. having thundurus in the tier is definitely playable regardless,

Run through VR lane:

assuming mostly standard sets, will note modifications if necessary
- loses to spdef charge and rogue specs sets if choiced, wins usually otherwise unless both are horrible sets
- not a very interesting mirror, gem favored because usually faster
- usually will lose to every set, tbolt does too much even to stall even from 0spa unboosted and taunt wins vs stall otherwise, specs can beat the toxic set if it outspeeds (which it should) but loses to charge sets
- forced to giga specs sets, return immunity fine vs non specs

- does poorly into thundurus usually, sub stops most trick stuff and slow is too weak to boost up repeatedly vs thundurus in the face of taunt. specs not strong enough to beat sub toxic either with ice beam
- specs loses to double protect on high rolls, just loses regularly if it lowrolls
- phys def charge
- specs volc will win most of the time but can get rogue hp rocked, sets w/o flamethrower, not so much (standard volcs can tech rest, worth noting)

- conk favored if it wants to beat thundy specifically, but can lose otherwise
- can straight lose to specs, needs dual chop to win vs toxic sets; since outrage is unreliable into a pokemon with substitute.
- similar story, sets that sequence to beat toxic sets lose to specs and vice versa, has to fit dual chop. scarf rock slide e.g just loses to sub protect.

- jaboca
- should just lose with no outs
- similar
- can rest but its a bad move to tech, loses usually otherwise to sub tox
- sub tox wins most of the time vs all common sets, on the thundurus player to win
- most sets win (why is this mon in this tier moment)
- scarf loses to sub tox sometimes, double protect on high rolls, just loses regularly if it lowrolls, specs/gem loses to opposing offensive sets
- band ice punch is semi reliable vs main sets + band stone edge kills offensive stuff for sure, jaboca mention though, scarf loses to sub tox
- shed skin band hilariously has like a 85% to win factoring toxic acc, other sets should lose outright (not counting dd sets etc cause not used), nobody knows who intimidate beats so maybe it's fine? idk
- should lose to sub tox
- can beat some non taunt tox variations with cm + rest, loses to taunt (foregoing tbolt) though. specs cune doesn't beat offensive sets.
- chople consistent but weird into the meta, otherwise can lose to specs

answers can be contentious, with the mons you run being reliant on an opponent's scout, and between offensive + defensive sets thundurus picks and chooses its mus among top tiers with two other mons to support it, being one of the better mons to pair with top tiers makes it very easy to make blanket teams that devolve game into a picking style one, plus it's hard to design effective counterplay to it.

if i had reqs, i would elect to vote ban because of its chokehold on building, partly because genesect is the mon a lot of the meta is centralized around, and thundurus both takes advantage of the meta in an unfair way; and partly because there are plenty of viable electric types that are more fair and do the same things thundurus does but less oppressively, which would not drastically affect the current meta.

thanks, have a nice day

 

[Mishlef]

Took a bit longer than I wanted but the SS 1v1 Post PL Survey is now open. We encourage as many people to submit and let us hear your thoughts!

https://forms.gle/HQ8dV8SJYiyVFoY28

The form will close no sooner than 9/29 11:59PM GMT-4

 

[neomon]

is banned from BW 1v1

Post in thread 'BW 1v1 Suspect - Thundurus'

Sep 27, 2024

The voting deadline has passed.

Total eligible voters: 15
Current votes: 11

Thundurus
Ban: 8
Do Not Ban: 3
Ban % = 72%

60% pro-ban majority is required for a ban, and that percentage has been reached with the existing votes. Thus, Thundurus is banned from BW 1v1!

• Felucia

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[torterraxx]

The ORAS 1v1 sets compendium has been remade, now with an EV explanations document! The new sets comp can be found here: https://pokepast.es/ba22132bcfdc788b . The explanations document is linked inside the comp. New sample teams will also be coming very soon! Good luck to everyone playing in ORAS cup and thank you for playing our tier!