Metagame 1v1 Old Gens

Synonimous said:
I will respond to your post regarding ORAS in this thread.
1. I disagree with the surveys serving exclusively as tiebreakers. I agree with the premise that there is a lack of community discussion and that "gather community sentiment when no other discussions are taking place," but it doesn't follow that they need to be relegated to a supplementary role or a call to action. In this case, the survey helped clarify where people stood on the current metagame and give council more information to work with when it came to suspected certain mons. In the absence of substantial metagame discussion, it makes sense to use these tools to get such a picture.
Additionally, this idea that surveys should be "binding"– "Surveys should not be conducted if there is no intention of respecting the outcome"–does not make sense give that the spectrum is not yes/no suspect. Clearly if a survey is unanimous that we should suspect, then I agree that it would be problematic if we didn't. However, if the results are more mixed or less clear (say a 4 and not a 5), it seems perfectly reasonable that council has discretion over the final decision with the survey in mind.

2. I think that the survey results regarding Mew vs. the council outcome is different in regards to the tier from SV. The most recent SV survey had 47 responders, with 23 considered "qualified." In contrast, the ORAS survey had 8 people, only 4 of which were qualified. Most, if not all, of those qualified voters were also on council. This creates the opposite worry which is that the survey may be over-representing those with the power to suspect. With this lack of diversity of opinions, it makes sense to wait until a tour which will provide more qualified voters (and metagame development) to get a better feel for whether or not we should take action. Bans in old gens are extremely sticky, and there is a general philosophy of caution when approaching them due to the smaller playerbase and activity.

3. I agree that there should be more discussion, but with the limited playerbase of old gens this is very difficult. This is especially true when there was just a ban that significantly altered the metagame, so that players who might otherwise have experience with the tier would be considered less qualified if they have not played a tour recently. I think there is a need to distinguish between surveys as the only tool to gauge community feedback and a useful one. Being able to get a quantitative picture of sentiment is useful, and I don't think we should cut ourselves off of that without a very good reason. The model of "Discuss in metagame discussion > more than one option AND ready for tiering action > survey > if favorable results suspect" is fundamentally flawed because it assumes that we know before a survey whether or not something is ready for tiering action. The whole point of a survey is to help clarify if that is the case.
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Model leaves room for various edits specially in the old gen department.

However I do think 4/5 is very significant and has nearly unanimousity from the community side that it's actually a dangerous precedent to ignore. There could be an argument for 3 but 4? This is another question, when is the community support enough to actually force suspect.

Also @ the last part, you can initiate discussion as council member so you're aware what the people think deserve tiering action
 
DEG said:
However I do think 4/5 is very significant and has nearly unanimousity from the community side that it's actually a dangerous precedent to ignore. There could be an argument for 3 but 4? This is another question, when is the community support enough to actually force suspect.
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The one thing I do want to add is that I think we should more clearly define the options on surveys for suspects. Specifically, I think that the range should be:
1. Not an issue
2. Likely not an issue.
3. Potentially an issue in the future, but don't suspect now.
4. Likely an issue now, but don't suspect now.
5. Likely an issue now, suspect now.
Obviously, there's room for overlap. There might be mons that are clearly going to be problematic in the future and should be banned somewhat preemptively, but this is just how I've thought about the numbers. I think that there are many cases where something might be considered problematic, but you wouldn't want to suspect immediately (i.e. the metagame can adapt). Make it more clear what you are voting for should resolve a lot of issues regarding community sentiment about surveys.
 
Synonimous said:
The one thing I do want to add is that I think we should more clearly define the options on surveys for suspects. Specifically, I think that the range should be:
1. Not an issue
2. Likely not an issue.
3. Potentially an issue in the future, but don't suspect now.
4. Likely an issue now, but don't suspect now.
5. Likely an issue now, suspect now.
Obviously, there's room for overlap. There might be mons that are clearly going to be problematic in the future and should be banned somewhat preemptively, but this is just how I've thought about the numbers. I think that there are many cases where something might be considered problematic, but you wouldn't want to suspect immediately (i.e. the metagame can adapt). Make it more clear what you are voting for should resolve a lot of issues regarding community sentiment about surveys.
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I do agree with more clearly defining what each ranking represents, but this is not the way to do it. One should be a clear do not suspect and Five should be a clear do suspect, but Five should not be the only number that represents wanting a suspect. A suspect test is meant to be done when the community is either set on action or is divided, where both sides have a large amount of support, aka Three. Three should be something along the lines of "maybe suspect," I think the most recent SV survey did a good job in that front.
 
Darkrai will be suspect tested in SM 1v1!
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The SM 1v1 Council has voted to Suspect Test Darkrai one week after OGPLIII ends.
Darkrai will remain banned for the duration of OGPLIII. There will be an unofficial SM 1v1 tour featuring Darkrai before PLIX.

To earn reqs for this suspect test: Play three and win two games of SM 1v1 in OGPLIII (including semis, finals, tiebreaks, and flex slots).
OGPLIII Player Signup Thread: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/1v1-ogpl-iii-player-signups.3758070/

SM 1v1 Council: Elo Bandit, Close, Felucia, RADU, rumia, Squirtell 1v1, Waylaid, Kry
3 games and 2 wins in WCVIII: Jamez, Urfgurgle, Loneling
3 games and 2 wins in 1v1PLVII: Sanshokuinsumireko, Iron Crusher, Rellia
3 games and 2 wins in OGPLII: crucify, torterraxx, bea, Frito, gorilaa
SM 1v1 Cup VIII Semifinalists: ihbst, Marshme1to, Rei, lost heros, Loneling
 
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For DPP 1v1, I do want to share some Kecleon movesets... especially the sets that are kind of similar to that of Clefable's.

:dp/kecleon:
NotAClef (Kecleon) @ Chople Berry
Ability: Color Change
EVs: 252 HP / 244 Def / 12 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Seismic Toss
- Disable
- Rest
- Thunder Wave

Counter (Kecleon) @ Chople Berry / Chilan Berry
Ability: Color Change
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Seismic Toss
- Counter
- Rest
- Disable / Thunder Wave
Chople Berry
  • 252+ Atk Choice Band Heracross Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Chople Berry Kecleon: 282-333 (87 - 102.7%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
  • 252+ Atk Choice Band Dragonite Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Chople Berry Kecleon: 198-234 (61.1 - 72.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
  • 252+ Atk Choice Band Staraptor Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Chople Berry Kecleon: 183-216 (56.4 - 66.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    • 252+ Atk Choice Band Staraptor Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Kecleon: 234-276 (72.2 - 85.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
  • 196+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Chople Berry Kecleon: 200-236 (61.7 - 72.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    • 196+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Kecleon: 170-201 (52.4 - 62%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
  • 252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Giga Impact vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Kecleon: 209-246 (64.5 - 75.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    • 252+ Atk Choice Band Weavile Giga Impact vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Kecleon: 229-270 (70.6 - 83.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
  • 252+ Atk Choice Band Swampert Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Chople Berry Kecleon: 172-203 (53 - 62.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
  • 252+ Atk Choice Band Ursaring Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Chople Berry Kecleon: 194-229 (59.8 - 70.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    • 252+ Atk Choice Band Ursaring Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Kecleon: 247-292 (76.2 - 90.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
  • 252+ Atk Choice Band Scizor Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Chople Berry Kecleon: 194-229 (59.8 - 70.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Chilan Berry
  • 252+ Atk Choice Band Staraptor Giga Impact vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Chilan Berry Kecleon: 171-202 (52.7 - 62.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
  • 252+ Atk Choice Band Slaking Giga Impact vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Chilan Berry Kecleon: 212-249 (65.4 - 76.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
  • 252+ Atk Choice Band Ursaring Giga Impact vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Chilan Berry Kecleon: 182-214 (56.1 - 66%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Moves Not Resisted By Either Chople or Chilan
  • 252+ Atk Choice Band Dragonite Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Kecleon: 297-351 (91.6 - 108.3%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
  • 176+ Atk Choice Band Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Kecleon: 237-279 (73.1 - 86.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
  • 252+ Atk Choice Band Staraptor Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Kecleon: 274-324 (84.5 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
  • 196+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Kecleon: 201-237 (62 - 73.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
  • 252+ Atk Choice Band Swampert Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Kecleon: 172-204 (53 - 62.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    • 252+ Atk Choice Band Swampert Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Kecleon: 216-255 (66.6 - 78.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
  • 252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Scizor Bug Bite vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Kecleon: 219-258 (67.5 - 79.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
One moveset idea that isn't Clef-like is a Nasty Plot set, but I'm not so certain if Kecleon should run either 3 Attacks or 2 Attacks with Recover in conjunction. The notable special moves that I could see being used for that hypothetical set are Thunderbolt/Thunder, Ice Beam/Blizzard, Flamethrower/Fire Blast, Grass Knot, and Shadow Ball; I'm unsure about using Icy Wind, Shock Wave, Water Pulse, Psybeam, or even Ancient Power however.

Do note that Kecleon has 60 HP base, which is lower in comparison to Clefable's 95 HP base and Clefairy's 70 HP base. Although Kecleon has a slightly lower Defense base stat (70 < Clefable's 73 Def base), it surprisingly has an amazing Special Defence base stat (120 > Clefable's 90 Sp. Def base). So in comparison to Clefable, Kecleon is physically frailer and would likely require more investment on its physical defense. It cannot survive a 252+ Atk Choice Band Rhyperior Rock Wrecker, even with max HP and Def EV investments and defense-boosting nature, unfortunately.

EDIT: I just noticed that Kecleon can't have Recover with Seismic Toss, Defense Curl, and/or Counter in its movesets so there's Rest instead... :[
 
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I think I've found another Clef wannabe that is physically bulkier than Kecleon: it's Vigoroth. Here are some few DPP 1v1 movesets that I'd like to show off for it:

:dp/vigoroth:

PseudoClef (Vigoroth) @ Chople Berry
Ability: Vital Spirit
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- Seismic Toss / Shadow Claw (Lure Ghost?)
- Encore
- Slack Off
- Body Slam / Icy Wind / Bulk Up

Move the remaining Atk EVs to SpD or Speed and set nature to Bold, if not running Shadow Claw or Body Slam. Not sure what EV spread(s) would be optimal for this set so the physically defensive spread is a placeholder for now...

Counter (Vigoroth) @ Chople Berry / Chilan Berry
Ability: Vital Spirit
EVs: 252 HP / 96 Def / 160 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Counter
- Encore
- Slack Off
- Seismic Toss / Bulk Up (in case you wanna face against Bulky Band Rhyperior, highly suggest to max out the Def EVs for higher odds of winning)

Alternative EV Spreads for Counter Set:
  • EVs: 252 HP / 136 Def / 120 SpD (bare minimum spread that can live 252+ Choice Band Dragonite Outrage, you can reallocate the SpD EVs to whatever you desire)
  • EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD (highly suggested in regards to facing Bulky Band Rhypeior)
The Damage Calcs regarding the Counter Set should be similar to that of the Counter Set for Kecleon, albeit Vigoroth's higher base HP and Defense stats play a significant role.
252+ Atk Choice Band Dragonite Outrage vs. 252 HP / 136+ Def Vigoroth: 307-363 (84.3 - 99.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
(I'm not entirely sure on why the calc said it's a guaranteed OHKO, even though the highest damage roll would have left the Vigoroth with that EV spread on 1 HP.)
252+ Atk Choice Band Rhyperior Rock Wrecker vs. +1 252 HP / 252+ Def Vigoroth: 237-279 (65.1 - 76.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Depending on the possible scenarios after Bulking Up Vigoroth during Turn 1 (whether Rock Wrecker missed, dealt the lowest damage [at least 237], dealt the highest damage [at most 279]), or dealt somewhere in between, you might need to do at least a few sequence of events with Counter, Slack Off, and Bulk Up. If Rock Wrecker crits during any turn, you lose.
  • If Rock Wrecker missed: Spam Counter until Rock Wrecker lands.
  • Low damage rolls from Rock Wrecker: Slack Off (recharge turn) and spam Counter.
  • High damage rolls: Bulk Up (recharge turn), Slack Off, spam Counter (if Rock Wrecker missed previously) or Slack Off again (if Rock Wrecker lands once more), and spam Counter.
  • Somewhere in between: (I'd suggest using the Damage Calc in order to see what to do next, based on how much HP lost.)

Unfortunately, or fortunately, Vigoroth does not learn Charm like Clefable. It only manages to learn Thunder Wave in SV though.
 
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a few weeks late, here is an update on BW 1v1 stuff:

Deg and Taka have left the council, LittEleven has joined the council, welcome!

VR Shift season is upon us aswell.

Conkeldurr A -> A+
Haxorus A -> A+
Keldeo A- -> A
Latios A- -> A
Magnezone B+ -> A-
Raikou B+ -> A-
Zapdos B+ -> A-
Arcanine B -> B+
Chandelure B -> B+
Gyarados B -> B+
Celebi B- -> B
Tornadus B- -> A-
Hariyama C+ -> B-
Darmanitan C -> C+
Archeops C- -> C
Sceptile C- -> C
Umbreon C- -> C
Virizion C- -> C
Porygon2 D -> C-
Starmie D -> C-
Cinccino UR -> D
Durant UR -> D
Gardevoir UR -> D

We'll be doing a new update aswell as some sample votes after OGPL
 
Re: sm darkrai I’m just posting thoughts mid ogpl playing SM but darkrai is an unnecessary presence for the tier that I do not think will be a good addition. Rai has a great speed tier and offensive stats/coverage, and the main thing holding it back generally is low accuracy coverage being needed to consistently win matchups (focus blast, thunder, etc), at least in more recent gens that is completely fixed with z moves. Wisp sets also seem really annoying on paper but I won’t post calcs until I think about this Mon more

Aside from the Mon itself, I find it odd that darkrai is being suspect tested into the tier with no point of re-entry into it at all besides “an unofficial tour before next PL” with a vote being done immediately after the end of the current ogpl. While this timing is realistically for a reason hopefully, having no chance to play or build with this Pokémon in a tour setting removes the natural tendency to build around this mon in the metagame and picture how it fits in both builder and play (even unofficial like there’s literally an Ubers 1v1 project rn that would be perfect for it). Instead it’s completely something which has to be visualized in builder which I believe is not sufficient.
 
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