Metagame 1v1 Old Gens

Synonimous said:
I will respond to your post regarding ORAS in this thread.
1. I disagree with the surveys serving exclusively as tiebreakers. I agree with the premise that there is a lack of community discussion and that "gather community sentiment when no other discussions are taking place," but it doesn't follow that they need to be relegated to a supplementary role or a call to action. In this case, the survey helped clarify where people stood on the current metagame and give council more information to work with when it came to suspected certain mons. In the absence of substantial metagame discussion, it makes sense to use these tools to get such a picture.
Additionally, this idea that surveys should be "binding"– "Surveys should not be conducted if there is no intention of respecting the outcome"–does not make sense give that the spectrum is not yes/no suspect. Clearly if a survey is unanimous that we should suspect, then I agree that it would be problematic if we didn't. However, if the results are more mixed or less clear (say a 4 and not a 5), it seems perfectly reasonable that council has discretion over the final decision with the survey in mind.

2. I think that the survey results regarding Mew vs. the council outcome is different in regards to the tier from SV. The most recent SV survey had 47 responders, with 23 considered "qualified." In contrast, the ORAS survey had 8 people, only 4 of which were qualified. Most, if not all, of those qualified voters were also on council. This creates the opposite worry which is that the survey may be over-representing those with the power to suspect. With this lack of diversity of opinions, it makes sense to wait until a tour which will provide more qualified voters (and metagame development) to get a better feel for whether or not we should take action. Bans in old gens are extremely sticky, and there is a general philosophy of caution when approaching them due to the smaller playerbase and activity.

3. I agree that there should be more discussion, but with the limited playerbase of old gens this is very difficult. This is especially true when there was just a ban that significantly altered the metagame, so that players who might otherwise have experience with the tier would be considered less qualified if they have not played a tour recently. I think there is a need to distinguish between surveys as the only tool to gauge community feedback and a useful one. Being able to get a quantitative picture of sentiment is useful, and I don't think we should cut ourselves off of that without a very good reason. The model of "Discuss in metagame discussion > more than one option AND ready for tiering action > survey > if favorable results suspect" is fundamentally flawed because it assumes that we know before a survey whether or not something is ready for tiering action. The whole point of a survey is to help clarify if that is the case.
Click to expand...
Model leaves room for various edits specially in the old gen department.

However I do think 4/5 is very significant and has nearly unanimousity from the community side that it's actually a dangerous precedent to ignore. There could be an argument for 3 but 4? This is another question, when is the community support enough to actually force suspect.

Also @ the last part, you can initiate discussion as council member so you're aware what the people think deserve tiering action
 
DEG said:
However I do think 4/5 is very significant and has nearly unanimousity from the community side that it's actually a dangerous precedent to ignore. There could be an argument for 3 but 4? This is another question, when is the community support enough to actually force suspect.
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The one thing I do want to add is that I think we should more clearly define the options on surveys for suspects. Specifically, I think that the range should be:
1. Not an issue
2. Likely not an issue.
3. Potentially an issue in the future, but don't suspect now.
4. Likely an issue now, but don't suspect now.
5. Likely an issue now, suspect now.
Obviously, there's room for overlap. There might be mons that are clearly going to be problematic in the future and should be banned somewhat preemptively, but this is just how I've thought about the numbers. I think that there are many cases where something might be considered problematic, but you wouldn't want to suspect immediately (i.e. the metagame can adapt). Make it more clear what you are voting for should resolve a lot of issues regarding community sentiment about surveys.
 
Synonimous said:
The one thing I do want to add is that I think we should more clearly define the options on surveys for suspects. Specifically, I think that the range should be:
1. Not an issue
2. Likely not an issue.
3. Potentially an issue in the future, but don't suspect now.
4. Likely an issue now, but don't suspect now.
5. Likely an issue now, suspect now.
Obviously, there's room for overlap. There might be mons that are clearly going to be problematic in the future and should be banned somewhat preemptively, but this is just how I've thought about the numbers. I think that there are many cases where something might be considered problematic, but you wouldn't want to suspect immediately (i.e. the metagame can adapt). Make it more clear what you are voting for should resolve a lot of issues regarding community sentiment about surveys.
Click to expand...
I do agree with more clearly defining what each ranking represents, but this is not the way to do it. One should be a clear do not suspect and Five should be a clear do suspect, but Five should not be the only number that represents wanting a suspect. A suspect test is meant to be done when the community is either set on action or is divided, where both sides have a large amount of support, aka Three. Three should be something along the lines of "maybe suspect," I think the most recent SV survey did a good job in that front.
 
Darkrai will be suspect tested in SM 1v1!
1737755313600.png

The SM 1v1 Council has voted to Suspect Test Darkrai one week after OGPLIII ends.
Darkrai will remain banned for the duration of OGPLIII. There will be an unofficial SM 1v1 tour featuring Darkrai before PLIX.

To earn reqs for this suspect test: Play three and win two games of SM 1v1 in OGPLIII (including semis, finals, tiebreaks, and flex slots).
OGPLIII Player Signup Thread: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/1v1-ogpl-iii-player-signups.3758070/

SM 1v1 Council: Elo Bandit, Close, Felucia, RADU, rumia, Squirtell 1v1, Waylaid, Kry
3 games and 2 wins in WCVIII: Jamez, Urfgurgle, Loneling
3 games and 2 wins in 1v1PLVII: Sanshokuinsumireko, Iron Crusher, Rellia
3 games and 2 wins in OGPLII: crucify, torterraxx, bea, Frito, gorilaa
SM 1v1 Cup VIII Semifinalists: ihbst, Marshme1to, Rei, lost heros, Loneling
 
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For DPP 1v1, I do want to share some Kecleon movesets... especially the sets that are kind of similar to that of Clefable's.

:dp/kecleon:
NotAClef (Kecleon) @ Chople Berry
Ability: Color Change
EVs: 252 HP / 244 Def / 12 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Seismic Toss
- Disable
- Rest
- Thunder Wave

Counter (Kecleon) @ Chople Berry / Chilan Berry
Ability: Color Change
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Seismic Toss
- Counter
- Rest
- Disable / Thunder Wave
Chople Berry
  • 252+ Atk Choice Band Heracross Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Chople Berry Kecleon: 282-333 (87 - 102.7%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
  • 252+ Atk Choice Band Dragonite Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Chople Berry Kecleon: 198-234 (61.1 - 72.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
  • 252+ Atk Choice Band Staraptor Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Chople Berry Kecleon: 183-216 (56.4 - 66.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    • 252+ Atk Choice Band Staraptor Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Kecleon: 234-276 (72.2 - 85.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
  • 196+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Chople Berry Kecleon: 200-236 (61.7 - 72.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    • 196+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Kecleon: 170-201 (52.4 - 62%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
  • 252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Giga Impact vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Kecleon: 209-246 (64.5 - 75.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    • 252+ Atk Choice Band Weavile Giga Impact vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Kecleon: 229-270 (70.6 - 83.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
  • 252+ Atk Choice Band Swampert Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Chople Berry Kecleon: 172-203 (53 - 62.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
  • 252+ Atk Choice Band Ursaring Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Chople Berry Kecleon: 194-229 (59.8 - 70.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    • 252+ Atk Choice Band Ursaring Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Kecleon: 247-292 (76.2 - 90.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
  • 252+ Atk Choice Band Scizor Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Chople Berry Kecleon: 194-229 (59.8 - 70.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Chilan Berry
  • 252+ Atk Choice Band Staraptor Giga Impact vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Chilan Berry Kecleon: 171-202 (52.7 - 62.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
  • 252+ Atk Choice Band Slaking Giga Impact vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Chilan Berry Kecleon: 212-249 (65.4 - 76.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
  • 252+ Atk Choice Band Ursaring Giga Impact vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Chilan Berry Kecleon: 182-214 (56.1 - 66%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Moves Not Resisted By Either Chople or Chilan
  • 252+ Atk Choice Band Dragonite Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Kecleon: 297-351 (91.6 - 108.3%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
  • 176+ Atk Choice Band Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Kecleon: 237-279 (73.1 - 86.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
  • 252+ Atk Choice Band Staraptor Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Kecleon: 274-324 (84.5 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
  • 196+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Kecleon: 201-237 (62 - 73.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
  • 252+ Atk Choice Band Swampert Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Kecleon: 172-204 (53 - 62.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    • 252+ Atk Choice Band Swampert Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Kecleon: 216-255 (66.6 - 78.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
  • 252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Scizor Bug Bite vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Kecleon: 219-258 (67.5 - 79.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
One moveset idea that isn't Clef-like is a Nasty Plot set, but I'm not so certain if Kecleon should run either 3 Attacks or 2 Attacks with Recover in conjunction. The notable special moves that I could see being used for that hypothetical set are Thunderbolt/Thunder, Ice Beam/Blizzard, Flamethrower/Fire Blast, Grass Knot, and Shadow Ball; I'm unsure about using Icy Wind, Shock Wave, Water Pulse, Psybeam, or even Ancient Power however.

Do note that Kecleon has 60 HP base, which is lower in comparison to Clefable's 95 HP base and Clefairy's 70 HP base. Although Kecleon has a slightly lower Defense base stat (70 < Clefable's 73 Def base), it surprisingly has an amazing Special Defence base stat (120 > Clefable's 90 Sp. Def base). So in comparison to Clefable, Kecleon is physically frailer and would likely require more investment on its physical defense. It cannot survive a 252+ Atk Choice Band Rhyperior Rock Wrecker, even with max HP and Def EV investments and defense-boosting nature, unfortunately.

EDIT: I just noticed that Kecleon can't have Recover with Seismic Toss, Defense Curl, and/or Counter in its movesets so there's Rest instead... :[
 
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I think I've found another Clef wannabe that is physically bulkier than Kecleon: it's Vigoroth. Here are some few DPP 1v1 movesets that I'd like to show off for it:

:dp/vigoroth:

PseudoClef (Vigoroth) @ Chople Berry
Ability: Vital Spirit
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- Seismic Toss / Shadow Claw (Lure Ghost?)
- Encore
- Slack Off
- Body Slam / Icy Wind / Bulk Up

Move the remaining Atk EVs to SpD or Speed and set nature to Bold, if not running Shadow Claw or Body Slam. Not sure what EV spread(s) would be optimal for this set so the physically defensive spread is a placeholder for now...

Counter (Vigoroth) @ Chople Berry / Chilan Berry
Ability: Vital Spirit
EVs: 252 HP / 96 Def / 160 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Counter
- Encore
- Slack Off
- Seismic Toss / Bulk Up (in case you wanna face against Bulky Band Rhyperior, highly suggest to max out the Def EVs for higher odds of winning)

Alternative EV Spreads for Counter Set:
  • EVs: 252 HP / 136 Def / 120 SpD (bare minimum spread that can live 252+ Choice Band Dragonite Outrage, you can reallocate the SpD EVs to whatever you desire)
  • EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD (highly suggested in regards to facing Bulky Band Rhypeior)
The Damage Calcs regarding the Counter Set should be similar to that of the Counter Set for Kecleon, albeit Vigoroth's higher base HP and Defense stats play a significant role.
252+ Atk Choice Band Dragonite Outrage vs. 252 HP / 136+ Def Vigoroth: 307-363 (84.3 - 99.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
(I'm not entirely sure on why the calc said it's a guaranteed OHKO, even though the highest damage roll would have left the Vigoroth with that EV spread on 1 HP.)
252+ Atk Choice Band Rhyperior Rock Wrecker vs. +1 252 HP / 252+ Def Vigoroth: 237-279 (65.1 - 76.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Depending on the possible scenarios after Bulking Up Vigoroth during Turn 1 (whether Rock Wrecker missed, dealt the lowest damage [at least 237], dealt the highest damage [at most 279]), or dealt somewhere in between, you might need to do at least a few sequence of events with Counter, Slack Off, and Bulk Up. If Rock Wrecker crits during any turn, you lose.
  • If Rock Wrecker missed: Spam Counter until Rock Wrecker lands.
  • Low damage rolls from Rock Wrecker: Slack Off (recharge turn) and spam Counter.
  • High damage rolls: Bulk Up (recharge turn), Slack Off, spam Counter (if Rock Wrecker missed previously) or Slack Off again (if Rock Wrecker lands once more), and spam Counter.
  • Somewhere in between: (I'd suggest using the Damage Calc in order to see what to do next, based on how much HP lost.)

Unfortunately, or fortunately, Vigoroth does not learn Charm like Clefable. It only manages to learn Thunder Wave in SV though.
 
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a few weeks late, here is an update on BW 1v1 stuff:

Deg and Taka have left the council, LittEleven has joined the council, welcome!

VR Shift season is upon us aswell.

Conkeldurr A -> A+
Haxorus A -> A+
Keldeo A- -> A
Latios A- -> A
Magnezone B+ -> A-
Raikou B+ -> A-
Zapdos B+ -> A-
Arcanine B -> B+
Chandelure B -> B+
Gyarados B -> B+
Celebi B- -> B
Tornadus B- -> A-
Hariyama C+ -> B-
Darmanitan C -> C+
Archeops C- -> C
Sceptile C- -> C
Umbreon C- -> C
Virizion C- -> C
Porygon2 D -> C-
Starmie D -> C-
Cinccino UR -> D
Durant UR -> D
Gardevoir UR -> D

We'll be doing a new update aswell as some sample votes after OGPL
 
Re: sm darkrai I’m just posting thoughts mid ogpl playing SM but darkrai is an unnecessary presence for the tier that I do not think will be a good addition. Rai has a great speed tier and offensive stats/coverage, and the main thing holding it back generally is low accuracy coverage being needed to consistently win matchups (focus blast, thunder, etc), at least in more recent gens that is completely fixed with z moves. Wisp sets also seem really annoying on paper but I won’t post calcs until I think about this Mon more

Aside from the Mon itself, I find it odd that darkrai is being suspect tested into the tier with no point of re-entry into it at all besides “an unofficial tour before next PL” with a vote being done immediately after the end of the current ogpl. While this timing is realistically for a reason hopefully, having no chance to play or build with this Pokémon in a tour setting removes the natural tendency to build around this mon in the metagame and picture how it fits in both builder and play (even unofficial like there’s literally an Ubers 1v1 project rn that would be perfect for it). Instead it’s completely something which has to be visualized in builder which I believe is not sufficient.
 
Jabiru 2025 DPP takes/sets/shit that nobody asked for.
You're welcome!

I am going to be writing a novel so for the sake of everyone's eyes, I will attempt to break this up into sections, detailing my different thoughts into what I think feels good/bad/underexplored in DPP atm and then wrap it up with some weird shit that I built this tour.
Salac Berry (Custap Berry)
I'll bracket custap as they fulfill largely the same niche, but where possible I do tend to prefer salac. I LOVE THIS ITEM. It enables you to run pokemon much bulkier and react to opposing plays/sets. Also works as a really strong option against opposing custap/scarfers. Ultiately I think there's very few mons (outside literal stall) that can not viably use either of these items. I think you have to consider the possibility of them at literally all times. However I think the archetypal user of this (salac) has to be Raikou which I would also highlight in its own right as a really potent pokemon right now. Its bulk at that speed tier is unmatched, theres very little that feels confident outspeeding and going for the kill (especially with how good I think salac is). Special attackers need to be very cautious of calm mind setup, and between pressure stall, its natural bulk, and access to magrise to negate its one weakness, reliable physical answers are rarer than they seem.
:raikou:
Raikou @ Salac Berry
Ability: Pressure
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 76 Def / 44 SpA / 136 Spe - Super customizable
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunderbolt
- Endure
- Shadow Ball - Again 3rd/4th move are super customizable depending on what you need it to do
- Signal Beam

As a very natural follow-on to how good those items are, I would also highlight priority as being incredibly strong. Beyond just dealing with custap/salac shenanigans, its a really strong option to have against the absurd number of substitute users in the tier, be they petaya sets or pressure stall.

Then just as a mon, I've found myself going to use over and over, we have Rhyperior. Honestly just hitting Ttar + Electrics is probably enough to give it a pretty strong niche, but pretty strong matchups into ape/gross give it a really good hitlist that I found myself looking for quite a few times this tour. That may just be a comment on how I was building, and I am conscious that a fair amount of that usage was giving pilots teams that matched up really well into said Ttar + Electrics to avoid them having to have awkward picks into broken spam, but equally thats one hell of a solid use case. There's a bit of different stuff I've been enjoying for various purposes, but I've typically moved away from band just to have a bit more reliability vs Raikou without a setguess:
:rhyperior:
Rhyperior @ Custap Berry
Ability: Solid Rock
EVs: 128 HP / 128 Atk / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Rock Blast
- Swords Dance
- Earthquake
- Endure
:rhyperior:
I think this maybe beats some Hariyama (Rhyperior) @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Solid Rock
EVs: 172 HP / 252 Atk / 84 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Rock Blast
- Rock Wrecker
- Earthquake
- Rock Tomb

And last but certainly not least: Suicune. It's freedom in EV'ing is to my mind a huge advantage and allows it a lot of versatility without sacrificing many core matchups. It does have a little bit of an arms race with Tyranitar but that is a coinflip heavily weighted in its favour. Wacan and pressure stall remain just relevant enough to play on the minds of opponents whilst specs and bulky setup give it two really strong core sets. The latter of which I think is almost being a bit under-utilised at the moment, something like the below was something I was really enjoying but theres a lot of freedom to kinda run whatever. Overall, I am a big fan of bulky attackers in this metagame and Suicune fits that mold to a tee. To my mind, this has to be a top 5 threat right now alongside Ttar, Cress, Zap, Raik.
:suicune:
Suicune @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 HP / 16 Def / 216 SpA / 24 Spe
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Reflect
- Surf
- Icy Wind
- Air Slash
The section where I get to moan like the old man that I am about bad sets, and current metagame trends.

Ok maybe it's actually about Dragonite, because this mon feels TERRIBLE to use. Its matchups into almost all the top metagame threats are suspicious at best. HP Ice is still so splashable that it becomes pretty hard to justify not running yache (or scarf). Its over-reliance on outrage (although admittedly, this could probably be addressed) makes it very susceptible to random endures, even despite its access to ostensibly the best answer in the game in espeed. Like there is room to innovate with this mon, but I have yet to find a nice way to do so, and until something is found this mon is really difficult to run.

Scarf Heracross. I just don't get it, I don't really see the appeal. Like it is so easily techable by most of the stuff you care about and makes you pretty much strictly worse against the two best mons in the tier.

I also just wanna take my opportunity to (as always) advocate for relegating Registeel to the shadow realm. Like I can almost never justify putting this mon on a team. Turns out the one thing this mon is best at is getting crit and getting crit is like not good in the tier with high crit rate and high crit damage. God I hate this mon.

And as a final hot take: Cresselia. I certainly don't think this mon is bad, and to some extent I think its issues are kind of inherent to the metagame's centralization around it but whilst it certainly provides a strong threat in the builder, and on preview, it feels really hard to click at times. There are just too many mons that have sets or plays against you, without sacrificing as much as they would have to for the likes of a Ttar or a Zapdos, and that just results in really poor matchup clarity.
I'll probably keep this section fairly short and just touch on a couple mons/variants that I think should either see more exploration or a bit of a shift up the VR.

To start, a mon that's not even on the VR at the moment: Pinsir. Whilst I certainly make no grandiose claims about this mon, I think its certainly got a few elements that lend itself to a niche in the metagame at the moment. It is a physical attacking bug type, without the exploitable weaknesses of Heracross (both the 4x flying weakness and the susceptibility to Cress psychic, which is a fairly significant target for a bug type) or Scizor. In a similar vein, I think theres possibly something worth exploring with Scyther too as having ways to just make those Celebi/Cresselia matchups a bit more reliable is pretty valuable. Specifically with Pinsir I opted for a choice scarf set, to catch some Infernape's off guard, but theres also possibly options with set-up or flail:
:pinsir:
Pinsir @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Hyper Cutter
EVs: 40 HP / 148 Atk / 88 Def / 232 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge
- X-Scissor
- Close Combat

Keeping on the theme of making my bug types beat Cresselia, I also think Swarm Scizor might be a bit underexplored. I looked at it with occa berry substitute as an answer to specs hp fire Cresselia, but I also think there might be some good options with Custap or boosting items (or even as a one-off, you could probably calc some ranges with liechi berry).
:scizor:
Scizor @ Occa Berry
Ability: Swarm
EVs: 204 HP / 252 Atk / 24 Def / 28 Spe
Adamant Nature
- X-Scissor
- Substitute
- Bullet Punch
- Aerial Ace

To get back onto the completely unranked and definitely bad but maybe remotely usable hype train: Lapras. Ok hear me out, I understand it is basically just Walrein without Thick Fat or encore (the two things that make Walrein good) and there is probably nothing here but just look at that movepool. Dragon pulse in particular sticks out to me as since we're in a meta where Jirachi has now been banned and Dragonite isn't feeling great Kingdra has a lot less incentive to run Haban. Additionally it feels fairly free to just slap on a weakness berry, which lets it lab a lot more than you'd think (252+ SpA Choice Specs Zapdos Thunder vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Wacan Berry Lapras: 328-387 (81.7 - 96.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO as a fun little example calc), and you have the beautiful piece of mind of priority and crit immunity.
:lapras:
Lapras @ Charti Berry
Ability: Shell Armor
EVs: 184 HP / 76 Def / 248 SpA
Quiet Nature
- Ice Beam
- Dragon Pulse
- Surf
- Ice Shard

Then to launch right up the VR, to a mon that I think is still incredibly underrated: Sceptile. Whilst I probably wouldn't go as far as to include it in my "The Good" section, the versatility that the last two move slots enable is I think something that still goes under the radar. Quick attack, leech seed, coverage, worry seed, protect are all really solid options. Additionally, Infernape finds it very hard to justify running sufficient special bulk to actually win this matchup with any degree of consistency and flipping that matchup, feels really nice for a grass type. Even running the ever so slightly suspicious (yikes at the rolls it gets and hitting focus blasts, but don't worry about that) specs set hits hard out of a really nice speed tier.
:sceptile:
Sceptile @ Choice Specs
Ability: Overgrow
EVs: 8 HP / 252 SpA / 32 SpD / 216 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 2 Atk / 30 Def / 30 SpD
- Hidden Power [Bug]
- Hyper Beam
- Leaf Storm
- Focus Blast

Next is something I tried to make work on Sceptile, but ultimately found better success with other mons, but just slapping counter on shit. Specifically slapping counter on vaguely squishy things. It ain't pretty and it certainly won't work every time, but as a switch-up, especially if you can also threaten custap/salac berry, I think there's some real potential there. I'll list a couple things I brought below but I also think there's potential with the likes of Sceptile, Ambipom.
:gengar:
Gengar @ Colbur Berry
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 64 Def / 16 SpD / 176 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Counter
- Shadow Ball
- Protect
- Energy Ball
:infernape:
Infernape @ Coba Berry
Ability: Blaze
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Counter
- Encore
- Grass Knot
- Vacuum Wave

I definitely lied about keeping this short but I want to talk about Endeavor and I dunno where else to do it. Whilst DPP has ties and so can't utilise the rowap/jaboca shenanigans of BW (also as an aside can someone with actual mons knowledge please confirm if thats bugged on showdown cos I was like fairly certain that they were only supposed to activiate if hp was actively lost, not just if hit by a physical/special attack), nor utilise sturdy to guarantee the 1hp endeavor. That said, the general principle that both Nuxl and I used (My GameNuxl's Game) feels pretty splashable, either playing it safe with {bulk a hit > sitrus > sub > endeavor > priority} or seeing if theres a way to make foregoing the sitrus berry and using custap/salac berry instead work (I am unconvinced but it could certainly catch someone offguard).
:mamoswine:
Mamoswine @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Snow Cloak
EVs: 96 HP / 160 Atk / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Endeavor
- Ice Shard
- Substitute
- Earthquake
I wanna start this section out by highlighting one of my "goals" for this tour. I believe in DPP and in 1v1 more generally, there are a number of status moves that are massively underexplored. Limiting your opponents options and forcing them into specific sequences of plays is a massively powerful, if situational tool in 1v1. This is something I've always looked at and tried to explore to some degree, I think Z-Magic Coat Clefable in SM, and disable Kingdra in DPP are two pretty solid examples of this, but it was a very conscious effort this tour to find more such examples (to varying degrees of success...)

We start it off fairly basic with looking to find more ways to utilize DPP Taunt being incredibly strong (love a 3-5 turn taunt). Premise is fairly simple, special wall with no weaknesses and strong taunt lets it wall most special threats in the tier and also stall break fairly effectively.
:spiritomb:
Spiritomb @ Chesto Berry
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 HP / 8 Def / 248 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Dark Pulse
- Rest
- Calm Mind
- Taunt

Unfortunately despite my incredible genius, not everything can be a success. I tried to utilise a set like this a number of times, with the core concept being lots of good mons like to use thunderbolt, shadow ball or substitute, and then these are also good moves to have. Unfortunately the distribution of things faster than Zapdos with imprison and that you'd click thunderbolt or shadow ball against is fairly limited, and then the mon gets spread a bit too thin trying to cover off everything. Making a functional imprison set is thus left as an exercise to the reader.
:mismagius:
Mismagius @ Pecha Berry / Magnet
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 124 HP / 164 SpA / 220 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Substitute
- Thunderbolt
- Shadow Ball
- Imprison
(I also did the same thing with Azelf, but won't really bother highlighting that here cos it is literally the same set)

However, much unlike my actual playing ability, my stubbornness is not to be denied. And so, out of the shocking realisation that choice items are like kinda good, grew a desire to use more disable mons. But they sucked, and so I moved onto torment. This is something I've tried to make work before, primarily with Ttar/Infernape/Gyara, but I think Umbreon might actually be the best user. Good bulk, the ever-important dark typing (without the corresponding weaknesses of adding the rock typing) and access to taunt combine really well. The core concept here is to function largely like an old Taunt/Disable Gallade, where you neuter choiced attackers and exploit the tendency of stall mons to only ever carry one attacking move. Add rest for recovery and payback as strong chip (that crucially hits both Cress and Celebi super effectively) to whittle down your opponents alongside struggle damage. I have no recollection of why its max attack, I think I was cteaming some rest mon usage. Physical bulk more important than Special cos struggle damage, but you could almost certainly reallocate a lot of that attack into bulk to help with stronger special attackers (and maybe Dragonite?).
:Umbreon:
Umbreon @ Chesto Berry
Ability: Synchronize
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def
Adamant Nature
- Torment
- Payback
- Taunt
- Rest

As a little throwback to my 2020 Worry Seed Sceptile sets, up next we have Heal Block. Apparently stopping things from healing is situationally useful, who knew? Basically taking Celebi, sacrificing the matchup vs Ttar (and literally everything else that ever carries taunt) to stall break. Questionable how worthwhile that trade is, but situationally usable.
:celebi:
Celebi @ Leftovers
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 28 HP / 228 SpD / 252 Spe - (These can be literally anything, I used this at least twice and ev'd it specially each time, this was just what was in the team I opened to copy/paste from)
Careful Nature
- Leech Seed
- Substitute
- Protect
- Heal Block

Next up, and perhaps least deserving of mention in this category is another lazy taunt user. This set was probably a bit over-engineered to the point where I'm a little suspicious of its actual viability but hey thats not why we're here. Whilst obviously looking to make use of taunt, especially against the likes of pressure stall, the core idea behind this set is Skuntank's typing. Poison = no die to toxic, and dark = yes kill Cresselia and Celebi. Additionally the dark typing grants access to the really combination of moves, payback and sucker punch. Underspeed 100 bp into out priority 80bp with STAB means that even off a fairly mediocre attack stat you can hit pretty hard, especially if you bulk into Liechi. IDK the logic was there, even if the actual set didn't pan out quite how I'd hoped.
:skuntank:
Skuntank @ Liechi Berry
Ability: Aftermath
EVs: 48 HP / 212 Atk / 248 SpD
Careful Nature
- Payback
- Sucker Punch
- Taunt
- Substitute

You might be starting to notice the pattern of this just being a fuck stall and fuck Cress building session and you would be absolutely right so next up we have more of the same. However this one gets to have even less thought behind it - Zapdos good + setup good + recovery good + maybe? beating Cress = good. Apicot is a relic from the Clefable days, shoutouts Urfgurgle, that just gives a bit more reliability into Special Attackers. HP Flying is pretty changeable, I considered charge to really hammer down the I hate special attackers point, but I wanted a better answer to miscellaneous grass types.
:zapdos:
Zapdos @ Apicot Berry
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 40 HP / 228 SpA / 240 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 30 HP / 2 Atk / 30 Def / 30 SpA / 30 SpD
- Metal Sound
- Thunderbolt
- Roost
- Hidden Power [Flying]
Yeah that'll do for now, I did enjoy getting back into DPP, and whilst I certainly think I could have played better I think I was rather unfortunate to end up negative and I think despite mildly trolling with some of these builds (Imprison was not a good tech as it turns out), I think on the whole my building was pretty good (bar the hospital week). So I'll probably try to extend my annual short spell of existence to collate some more thoughts into slightly more coherent rambling than the above (no more essays in this thread I promise) so if there are aspects of this tier that I have now been playing for far too long, that anyone would value my thoughts on, do please feel free to reach out at any time.
 
Lumii BW post because realistically if I talk about anything but this tier and sv I am talking out of my ass and should not be trusted. The reality is I liked this tier more before the Thundurus ban but what can you do right...

:haxorus:
I hate Defensive Dragon Gem Haxorus. I've used it a couple times and every single time it fills me with pain. I'm gonna click Shell Smash with Crustle one of these days into it and beat it because I'm stupid or something. Idk. Stupid hatred for this one set aside, I think Haxorus should be running Dual Chop on its Choice Band set. Not only does it OHKO Sawk, but it also deals with Shaymin and Serperior while still maintaining the Snorlax matchup. Using Choice Band + Dual Chop Haxorus gave me some of the easiest threatlists to work with that I've seen in OGPL for this tier, so that's pretty nice. I very notably missed a Dual Chop into Sawk into Mcthelegit though. I guess 90% accurate truly is 0% accurate...

:latios:
This Pokemon is not better than Latias. Sorry. I've been one of the biggest Latios proponents for the longest of times, but Latias is so much more oppressive on preview because you have to account for the Charm sets, Reflect Type sets, Choice Specs, Offensive Dragon Gem, etc. It genuinely feels that whatever Latios can do, Latias can do either similarly or better. I do really wish to see this change reflected in the VR though.

:crustle:
Honestly a really sneakily good Pokemon right now. Not much to say. It does Crustle things. The increase of good Flying-types makes this Pokemon good. I've seen quite a lot more Jaboca Shaymins too this tour to respond to this. Would like to see this Pokemon be A instead of A- rn.

:scrafty:
Best fighting in the tier outside of Keldeo. Best physical fighting in the tier I guess. I should use physical Keldeo. Jokes aside, Cresselia is incredibly oppressive in builder right now, having the niche of being a Fighting that beats Latios and Cresselia is cool. Again, this is why Latias is good. Choice Band is probably my favourite set right now, instead of Fighting Gem, which it was in the past.

:tornadus:
Please use Toxic Stall more. Specs is overrated. I tried to make a Bulky Specs set at some point this tour. Ran into this screenshot. Maybe Torn-T might be useful after all.

Screenshot 2025-03-26 at 12.17.49 AM.png

I was building with this for Waylaid and then never got to use it, so probs would be cool if anyone looked into this before PL or something and shared their observations. I never really tried to find Torn-T a good EV spread, so yeah.

:zapdos:
If the usage thread is done, Zapdos was the second most used mon in the tier. I think it should be ranked higher than A- because it's just good at getting 2-1s. Being the Heat Wave Flying-type that beats the other Heat Wave Flying-type is cool. At some point during the tour, I had a line saying that it felt somewhat hard to build four to five teams in a week that did not have Zapdos on them. Pressure stall sets are especially interesting to me because there was some game I played a while back where I lost CB Return Snorlax into SubTect Pressure stall Zapdos. That was pretty annoying.

:keldeo:
I'm stubborn and still really love using this Pokemon. The reality is that the Thundurus ban definitely made it quite a bit worse. This Pokemon does not like Flyings and it got hit by Tornadus + Zapdos becoming more popular. Sad days for this thing. I've been using Manaphy more finally...

:cresselia:
The lesser evil of two Pokemon I can really see getting suspected. Cresselia is just really good albeit somewhat of an annoyance for me to want to build with. Sitrus Berry stall sets seem really annoying right now to me. I didn't build with this mon much but noticed a lot of my teams getting 3-0'd by some set of this thing if I wasn't using Scrafty, Crustle, or Genesect. Some of my Genesects just lost to this thing too. Had to adapt my building quite a bit to beat this thing a lot of the time.

:genesect:
The greater of two evils of this tier and the most used and most banworthy Pokemon. This thing has been broken for a long time, and I think that it should have been banned before Thundurus got banned. There's such few actual answers to this that aren't Fire-types that a lot of the time, any team that I ran that did not have a Fire-type would just try to slot random Fire-type moves anywhere it could to try to beat it. Occa is just really good on it as well. There was definitely at least one BW team I ran that got 3-0'd by Occa Genesect though. I'm not a big fan of "beat anything you feel like beating" style mons, but this thing just feels pretty painful to prep for, especially since it's so prevalent.

:jirachi:
I miss you..

bw stream of consciousness over I'm really sleepy gn
 
obligatory
adv vr takes:

:sceptile: - not S- for sure lol. lot of A and above mons cover it + leaf bladeless leech set literally lost to a milotic trying to play optimally like what. re-evaluate.

:heracross: - doesn't really hang with the others in A+, blissey / maro / mence have really good niches and beat a lot of neutral mus while hera feels really specific and raikou can tech it so what is it doing in A+; nobody knows

:tauros: - way more polarizing should be higher, cb / sub tox is a deadly pairing

:arcanine: - should be way higher, hp ice + agility gives you so many good matchups vs the vr. adv thanos (kaif) approved. also band gives you some mus :)

:starmie: - run sub toxic lefties and steal a win thank me in 2026. its pretty decent imo as petaya and just covers mus that nothing else does

:regice: - pretty much a lard box that only exists by type advantage, this thing has lost to mons like venusaur, do not recommend, just use walrein like a hip person if you're not running the amne set. CB IS NOT GOOD STOP LOSING TO RAIKOU SETS TRYING TO BEAT RAIKOU

:jirachi: - better than B+ but not a lot better, its in a weird spot but has enough tools to be pretty good

:gengar: - logan pilled this is pretty good into all waters and tauros so its automatically great

:venusaur: - fast leech is just bulky enough to gain some mus, not very easy to answer if you don't prep for it or have a psychic type in the pocket, also gains maro as an mu which is pretty good. recommended
 
LittEleven said:
obligatory
adv vr takes:

:sceptile: - not S- for sure lol. lot of A and above mons cover it + leaf bladeless leech set literally lost to a milotic trying to play optimally like what. re-evaluate.
Click to expand...
oops. agreed tho I think this mon really isnt that good. the occasional band sets r complete bait as well they do nothing useful

Tauros is 100% the best/second best mon in the tier with raikou its kind of ridiculous. Needs to be moved to some S rank. I think ppl gotta run thunder raikou more often tho maybe more rng in adv is not the play.

Arcanine is another one of the best mons in the tier this thing needs to be like at least A+. the only things it cant really beat are just waters. realistically nowadays we should be using real raikou sets that dont lose to arcanine but i wouldnt be surprised if they were loaded anyways. Maybe third best mon in the tier ngl.

LittEleven said:
:regice: - pretty much a lard box that only exists by type advantage, this thing has lost to mons like venusaur, do not recommend, just use walrein like a hip person if you're not running the amne set. CB IS NOT GOOD STOP LOSING TO RAIKOU SETS TRYING TO BEAT RAIKOU
Click to expand...
raikou doesnt really beat cb reliably even if you tried. but yeah this mon rlly doesnt do anything better than walrein except go into waters. doesnt even beat maro without investing a lot of speed or running icy wind.

LittEleven said:
:jirachi: - better than B+ but not a lot better, its in a weird spot but has enough tools to be pretty good

:gengar: - logan pilled this is pretty good into all waters and tauros so its automatically great

:venusaur: - fast leech is just bulky enough to gain some mus, not very easy to answer if you don't prep for it or have a psychic type in the pocket, also gains maro as an mu which is pretty good. recommended
Click to expand...

Jirachi is definitely better than most of the mons in this rank but i think its fine where it is. it doesnt feel far off metagross though. we got ppl running budget jimmy neutron metagross sets over here.

I think Gengar is completely mid and just feels like a worse alakazam. It gets the tauros matchup until ppl start running hp ghost on band again (easily slottable).

Venusaur stocks are going up, beats scept and raikou easily and has decent mus around the board. I think it deserves to go up.

Not sure if there are adv usage stats for ogpl out but I dont think I saw any Celebi. Im not really sure how I feel about celebi but it does not deserve to be in the same rank as any of the mons in A. ludicolo got more juice to it. celebi might be sleeper ass

I think dragonite is better than everything in its tier

tom might have been on to something skarmory is actually usable more than I thought, I think it could go up a bit.

Put steelix on the vr its kind of nice and beats raik and tauros so its automatically usable

might add more to this later
 
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