Unpopular opinions

[Worldie]

1. They just go all in on disconnecting competitive from the actual game and just establish a full-on Showdown-esque battle simulator for competitive formats.
2. They enact some kind of hard reset to the idea of competitive that actively pushes the community away from optimization, thus making genning no longer an incentive.

Or honestly neither.

They are making getting competitive pokemon easier and more accessible every generation. With the DLC seemingly introducing "ev reset items", we're realistically only a few step away (one of which being 0 IV caps) from literally taking 5 minutes from catching a pokemon to making it VGC ready.
The only thing that is really missing is a way to quickly swap around a legendary or have multiple of them.

 

[MisogiKurakawa]

So, another subject I think is worth discussing - Is it really worth keeping IVs?

This is a genuine question in my mind. While the purpose of the mechanic was pretty plainly just as a means of diversifying Pokemon and making them seem more "real", the mechanic is basically the leading cause behind the genning culture which has been such a talking point lately among the competitive space, because so much the game are rooted in these very hard numbers that people are trying to optimize. Sure, Bottle-Caps have been implemented as an attempt to enable one to naturally get perfect IVs in-game, but for the sake of game balance those items are difficult to obtain and expensive, requiring substantive amounts of time grinding money which plays into the time reasons for people cheating as a means of skipping the process. Natures and EVs already exist as the primary form of stat customization while being much easier to interact with and digest, so what's the wholesale benefit of keeping the system?

 

[Coronis]

So, another subject I think is worth discussing - Is it really worth keeping IVs?

This is a genuine question in my mind. While the purpose of the mechanic was pretty plainly just as a means of diversifying Pokemon and making them seem more "real", the mechanic is basically the leading cause behind the genning culture which has been such a talking point lately among the competitive space, because so much the game are rooted in these very hard numbers that people are trying to optimize. Sure, Bottle-Caps have been implemented as an attempt to enable one to naturally get perfect IVs in-game, but for the sake of game balance those items are difficult to obtain and expensive, requiring substantive amounts of time grinding money which plays into the time reasons for people cheating as a means of skipping the process. Natures and EVs already exist as the primary form of stat customization while being much easier to interact with and digest, so what's the wholesale benefit of keeping the system?

I wouldn’t say EVs and natures are much easier to interact with.

Bottle Caps cost 20k to max out one stat. Mints cost 20k to change nature. Vitamins cost 10k each for a total of 260k to max out one stat. Or you can grind out EVs from actual battles (takes longer than grinding money), or you can hope you get lucky with raids for any of them.

On the actual genning issue, gen for personal use yeah sure, don’t gen if you’re competing in an actual sanctioned tournament - its that simple. You don’t deserve to be there if you’re not willing to put in the time and effort (which is far less these days due to the QoL changes that have been made) to put together your team.

Hopefully we do get a 0 IV Bottle Cap (Rusted Bottle Cap?) for those TR etc. cases - but they’re the only ones where it would take a significant amount of time to build a Pokemon.

 

[Bakugames]

My main issue with ivs, evs and honestly most building is how the work with the current gamefreak philosophy: Gamefreak absolutely HATES giving numbers or information to anything that isnt the bp/accuracy and your stats. You never learn that the flinch chance of something is 30%, it just "has a chance". you don't learn that natures give a 10% change for the two stats, its just "affects your stats". You're given macho braces and bottle caps that make your pokemon stronger, but you're not told how, why, and by how much. Its the worst with ivs because they have the biggest obfuscation of the entire series, as the breeding behind them is almost unexplained beyond vague mentions of breeding. Its a convoluted system made worse by how annoying it is to interact with

I get it on paper because throwing a bunch of random numbers is probably very confusing for a kid, when the current simple wording is plenty enough for them to understand the move and pick what they want to do. But also cmon, whats the point of making all these items that interact with these hidden mechanics when you refuse to even explain how they work?
On a game I play, the writing for the skills and abilities of characters is written like the pokemon ones by default, but you can click an expand button that changes the description to a more detailed version with raw %s. It goes from "This character jumps, dealing massive damage" to "This character jumps every 5s, dealing 500% damage + 50% def". Something like that in the settings, where you can choose to view a more detailed version of how the game works would help a lot.

I still think ivs are kinda dumb and I think the coromon system or even just a "choose the stats to improve" take that jrpgs have done for years is much more intuitive. I also find the take of making pokemon feel unique a bit stupid because the average player will absolutely not notice or care, and the competitive player will not give a shit about the granularity of pokemon stats and always go for the optimal version

 

[Hugin]

Yeah, it's not that natures are "easier" per se than IVs, it's that Natures show up on the stats page and make it very clear(except for the colors being backwards) what they do. IV's are intentionally hidden behind vague wording from rando NPCs. If I catch a Meowth, I have to load up an IV calculator online to know if they're good or not. For Nature, it's open the stats screen and check. Guess which one I take note of on in-game runs.

 

[AztecCroc]

Yeah, it's not that natures are "easier" per se than IVs, it's that Natures show up on the stats page and make it very clear(except for the colors being backwards) what they do. IV's are intentionally hidden behind vague wording from rando NPCs. If I catch a Meowth, I have to load up an IV calculator online to know if they're good or not. For Nature, it's open the stats screen and check. Guess which one I take note of on in-game runs.

Vague wording? It's been a thing you can just check in the PC/Summary since gen 7. If it says "Best" then that stat is maximum and if it says "No good" that stat is minimum, all the others are irrelevant.

It's fairly clear and easy to know your EVs nowadays, since with no Hidden Power nothing other than 31 or 0 matters.

 

[Bakugames]

Vague wording? It's been a thing you can just check in the PC/Summary since gen 7. If it says "Best" then that stat is maximum and if it says "No good" that stat is minimum, all the others are irrelevant.

It's fairly clear and easy to know your EVs nowadays, since with no Hidden Power nothing other than 31 or 0 matters.

But the game refuses to explain what those mean, the mechanics behind it and usually you learn about this when you get a bottle cap and its all explained in vague terms.

not only that, we go back to the issue of it being worthless: you wont make use of the system as a casual player because the games piss easy and bottle cap grinding is too tedious and youll never feel the difference, and you wont want to interact with 90% of the ivs you get because the only thing that matters is optimization. so we end up with vague foggy terms and npc info scattered across for a mechanic that is only used in areas where you need so much optimization its pointless to use it any other way

 

[MisogiKurakawa]

I still think ivs are kinda dumb and I think the coromon system or even just a "choose the stats to improve" take that jrpgs have done for years is much more intuitive. I also find the take of making pokemon feel unique a bit stupid because the average player will absolutely not notice or care, and the competitive player will not give a shit about the granularity of pokemon stats and always go for the optimal version

There's actually a solution I've considered which could marry the systems together I think while keeping things consistent with a non-competitive playthrough - Cut IVs, and instead have wild Pokemon have a random set of EVs that are displayed in a menu on the summary page once you catch them, and can be manipulated as a form of customization. Boom, you keep the worldbuilding significance (suggesting Wild Pokemon have gained EVs in the process of developing), eliminate the hassle of dealing with Bottle-Caps, and more closely marry closer the actual in-game experience and the competitive side, which in turn could actually go a ways to trying to end the "Cheating is okay" culture of comp. The only thing really lost is niche tactics like running 0 Speed for Trick Room, and that kind of over-optimized play is the kind of thing I'd argue we should be discouraging, since it is what has led up to our current situation in the first place.

 

[Bakugames]

The only thing really lost is niche tactics like running 0 Speed for Trick Room, and that kind of over-optimized play is the kind of thing I'd argue we should be discouraging, since it is what has led up to our current situation in the first place.

to be fair: the only way to discourage optimization is to make it impossible (see: gen4 farceus). competitive wise, we cant really do much about it as its a game mode that rewards optimization in the first place, skill or tools. people optimizing the fun of the game itself, a common problem dealt in game design, is more of an issue in the actual game itself. This actually does happen in recent gens somewhat, as theres so many resources given to you that more experienced players can easily optimize their teams and make the game trivial and unfun. very common with hardcore nuzlockers lol.

I do like your suggestion though. I think random evs is pretty fun and ev customization is a lot more lenient and somewhat open compared to ivs

 

[MisogiKurakawa]

to be fair: the only way to discourage optimization is to make it impossible (see: gen4 farceus). competitive wise, we cant really do much about it as its a game mode that rewards optimization in the first place, skill or tools. people optimizing the fun of the game itself, a common problem dealt in game design, is more of an issue in the actual game itself. This actually does happen in recent gens somewhat, as theres so many resources given to you that more experienced players can easily optimize their teams and make the game trivial and unfun. very common with hardcore nuzlockers lol.

I do like your suggestion though. I think random evs is pretty fun and ev customization is a lot more lenient and somewhat open compared to ivs

Yeah, this is the problem with the "0 IV Bottle-Cap" solution I see people proposing. This isn't an issue you can put a bandaid on and call it fixed - it's about human behaviour and the nature of incentives. If the choice is down to literal hours of grinding and resource preparation just to play on any level, and using a cheat method to circumvent all of that, then human behaviour is going to prioritize the latter. Hence, the solution in my eyes is in some way unifying the actual play experience to push away from that grind. That's my take, anyway.

 

[Coronis]

Yeah, this is the problem with the "0 IV Bottle-Cap" solution I see people proposing. This isn't an issue you can put a bandaid on and call it fixed - it's about human behaviour and the nature of incentives. If the choice is down to literal hours of grinding and resource preparation just to play on any level, and using a cheat method to circumvent all of that, then human behaviour is going to prioritize the latter. Hence, the solution in my eyes is in some way unifying the actual play experience to push away from that grind. That's my take, anyway.

But its not. Its to play it at the top competitive level where you are actually competing for either ingame exclusives or real money. Feel free to gen to play casually against your friends or to test - just grow up and don’t cheat in a legitimate competition.

 

[Worldie]

But its not. Its to play it at the top competitive level where you are actually competing for either ingame exclusives or real money. Feel free to gen to play casually against your friends or to test - just grow up and don’t cheat in a legitimate competition.

Sir have you ever wondered why even in e-sports there's been the first cases of actual doping this year?
No?

Let me introduce you to the real world and actual money involvement...

 

[Coronis]

Sir have you ever wondered why even in e-sports there's been the first cases of actual doping this year?
No?

Let me introduce you to the real world and actual money involvement...

Thats the whole point…its just cheating like doping and should be banned - and people who get caught shouldn’t whinge about it - and people shouldn’t be defending them for it.

 

[Worldie]

Thats the whole point…its just cheating like doping and should be banned.

Oh don't get me wrong, of course it should be banned or prevented. It is still cheating after all.

My point is, it's human nature to go toward it. Honestly just animal nature, animals will always look toward the easiest way to do something, no matter if it's the "best".

When it comes to videogames, there's a endless battle between hackers and defense, and the defense literally cannot win, the only way to stop people from cheating is either make it pointless (which, is what GF is slowly doing), or make the detection / punishment strong enough that if you do it in official scenarios you will get banned from the event / potentially lifetime ban.

Also, slight reminder, that it's delusional to say that if they would completely stop genning, there'll be no advantage for bigger player/streamers or people with money over "normal players".
It's the same wrong attitude toward closed team sheet. With closed team sheet, influential players will acquire more informations faster than "normal players", due to their connections, resulting in the more influential player having 10x the informations of the person with no connections within hours of the event start or even before it.
With pokemon acquisition, it's the same. The influential person will just ask or straight up pay someone else to breed / catch / EV train the pokemon for them. You'll end up in the same exact situation just via different means.

The only actual solution to the genning problem is to make it pointless.

 

[Imperial Magala]

Vague wording? It's been a thing you can just check in the PC/Summary since gen 7. If it says "Best" then that stat is maximum and if it says "No good" that stat is minimum, all the others are irrelevant.

It's fairly clear and easy to know your EVs nowadays, since with no Hidden Power nothing other than 31 or 0 matters.

Every single game (except the Let's Go games because of course) has the IV Judge be post credits and even then, with Gen 7 and 8, the PC IV Judge had additional requirements before you can obtain it.

 

[AztecCroc]

Every single game (except the Let's Go games because of course) has the IV Judge be post credits and even then, with Gen 7 and 8, the PC IV Judge had additional requirements before you can obtain it.

And? You aren't going to beat the game you're participating in competitive play for?
Also Home also has same IV judge.

 

[ant4456]

I'm not sure if this is necessarily an unpopular opinion considering I just don't see it much, but I'd say it counts:

Instead of level scaling, open world Pokemon should simply remove level stats. I think the games would be better if levels are removed from stats (say, all Level 50 forced) and instead only get stronger by evolution, earning new moves, or EVs/IVs. This means that it's entirely predictable what level the player will be at (the same one !) and all challenges are somewhat defeatable with a good strategy, from hour one.

The 8th gym can be the 8th gym but still beatable before the 2nd, because while it does have fully evolved Pokemon and good moves, you're not a 30 level difference in straight up stats.

 

[ant4456]

The results... don't support that conclusion, actually. Looking over the history of the franchise since the original games, yes release dates have quickened overall.

so your argument is bad because you don't realize how significantly different 3 years in the 90s and 2000s was for game development compared to 2023

in the 90s and 2000s ATLUS, smaller JRPG company, could reliably essentially yearly release an entire JRPG

and then it took SMTV 4 years from reveal and it still ran at like 20FPS

3 years ain't SHIT in 3D game development.

Contrary to your other point, SWSH had a much larger dev team than Gens 4 or 5 or whatever. In fact, SWSH had 200 internal staff and 800 external contracted workers.

That's a lot of people, but not enough time for a 2.5ish year dev time.

Because remember, a lot of dev time goes to shipping and pre-production, aka planning. There is even less time than you think.

Pre 7th Gen Era, it was a lot easier to continuously shit out JRPGs, which is why almost half of most famous JRPG series' major entries are from before 2007.

I mean, look at Final Fantasy. Like 80% of all Shin Megami Tensei games are Pre 7th Gen, and Dragon Quest slowed down too. Pokemon is actually insane for not slowing down at all.

Before the Switch this could work because of simple facts of production. Worse power level to work with, less needed to make it look good for the system. Gen 7 was pretty polished for the 3DS. Then you transfer those graphics to a bigger screen, and even rendered at 4K it just doesn't look that good.

The screen real estate is bigger. The textures actually matter much more now. You have to put much more effort into keeping the immersion for the player.

But we have the same exact time frame.

And no, please god no not "hire more devs". Pokemon doesn't need more devs it needs more time.

Lastly: Don't trust Game Freak producers with their time frames because, according to them, development for SWSH started when they went to vacation in the UK and drew a British Pokemon Center.

That design never made it to the official game. And also the game only started real work after Sun and Moon was done.

 

[Worldie]

Instead of level scaling, open world Pokemon should simply remove level stats. I think the games would be better if levels are removed from stats (say, all Level 50 forced) and instead only get stronger by evolution, earning new moves, or EVs/IVs. This means that it's entirely predictable what level the player will be at (the same one !) and all challenges are somewhat defeatable with a good strategy, from hour one.

So you mean... pretty much like Legend Arceus did, where your levels are basically irrelevant as all that matters is that you can take a hit and 1hko back, and people complained about the fact that your levels are basically irrelevant?

 

[ant4456]

So you mean... pretty much like Legend Arceus did, where your levels are basically irrelevant as all that matters is that you can take a hit and 1hko back, and people complained about the fact that your levels are basically irrelevant?

No, because Legends Arceus has levels. Remove it completely. Also, Legends Arceus battle system just sucks? No wonder people complained?

 

[Worldie]

No, because Legends Arceus has levels. Remove it completely. Also, Legends Arceus battle system just sucks? No wonder people complained?

My point stands.
L.A. has levels, they're just irrelevant due to the way stats are calculated.

If you "remove levels" from Pokemon, you get the same scenario, where realistically all that matters is that you have the coverage to 1hko the enemy team.

Let me be frank, why are you people so obsessed about "fixing" a turn based game? You can't. There isn't a single turn based videogame that isn't super easy once you're familiar with the core mechanics.
Pokemon will always be a joke as long as you have basic knowledge of type matchups. It doesn't need any attempt to balance the level curve or anything like that, because it's pointless, people will always just grind more if needed, and if you can't grind more, it'll just become "do you know type matchups y/n" like Legend Arceus does.

 

[Cobalt Empoleon]

I'm not sure if this is necessarily an unpopular opinion considering I just don't see it much, but I'd say it counts:

Instead of level scaling, open world Pokemon should simply remove level stats. I think the games would be better if levels are removed from stats (say, all Level 50 forced) and instead only get stronger by evolution, earning new moves, or EVs/IVs. This means that it's entirely predictable what level the player will be at (the same one !) and all challenges are somewhat defeatable with a good strategy, from hour one.

The 8th gym can be the 8th gym but still beatable before the 2nd, because while it does have fully evolved Pokemon and good moves, you're not a 30 level difference in straight up stats.

It's tricky to balance a no-level system alongside the sentimentalism associated with teambuilding in Pokemon. If my favourite Pokemon are exceptionally weak, I can put in the extra time to grind levels so they can beat any opponent, but without levels there are certain battles they simply will not be able to beat (except maybe by using some intensely boring setup strats or heal spam to exploit the limitations of the AI).

 

[MisogiKurakawa]

I'm not sure if this is necessarily an unpopular opinion considering I just don't see it much, but I'd say it counts:

Instead of level scaling, open world Pokemon should simply remove level stats. I think the games would be better if levels are removed from stats (say, all Level 50 forced) and instead only get stronger by evolution, earning new moves, or EVs/IVs. This means that it's entirely predictable what level the player will be at (the same one !) and all challenges are somewhat defeatable with a good strategy, from hour one.

The 8th gym can be the 8th gym but still beatable before the 2nd, because while it does have fully evolved Pokemon and good moves, you're not a 30 level difference in straight up stats.

So...completely remove everything which makes Pokemon a JRPG, then?

This is a bizarre solution to my eyes to the problem that Pokemon ultimately isn't really designed for open-world traversal, regardless of how appealing the idea is. This isn't Breath of the Wild or Elden Ring.

 

[ant4456]

I thought the fun in Pokemon was adventure, the creatures themselves and experiencing good music, seeing new characters, etc. I didn't realize that a core part of Pokemon was just feeling dopamine every time you hit an arbitrary number of exp, silly me.

fun fact btw Elden Ring does have levels, and it doesn't have scaling either

There is a reason my favorite romhacks generally have level caps and ways to almost instantly get to that level cap.

Because leveling up and grinding was never integral to my ideal Pokemon experience.

 

[Bakugames]

pokemon sv isnt like botw and elden ring because the open world is only a medium downgrade and its still a decent game comparing to the rest of the franchise despite it, while botw and elden ring suck