Unpopular opinions

[QuentinQuonce]

Disclaimer: Wasn't sure if this fit here or Little things since I neither know how common this is nor how significant most consider it.

I think despite the better scale of the models on screen vs Sprites and some improvements to the team writing, ORAS has a decidedly inferior atmosphere to the Legendary encounter in the Cave of Origin compared to RS. I would even go as far as to place those above how the Emerald resolution is handled, though that one is down to preference moreso than ORAS I feel doing "the same but weaker".

Riding on the Pokemon to the battle site before they Primal Revert is a little silly to look at, and I also think it kind of breaks the pacing/tension. RS it's a simple descent through the cave, rumbling each floor before you reach the last room. The music cuts out, the Legendary gives one cry as you approach, then the Orb catches its eye and the music kicks in for the encounter. I think it epitomizes "Less is More" in presentation, giving the Mascot a presence befitting the escalation they had this gen from "Large creatures" to Titans bordering on Deities. It gives this sense you're only within their notice because of the Orb even.

ORAS I think weakens it a bit because it just feels "safer" ironically. They give you this protective suit and the Titan is clearly aware of your presence, bringing you (actively or just as a consequence) to what is essentially an arena as if accepting a challenge. Maybe there's a nostalgia to it but it makes them seem like "just" big Pokemon despite the Primal lore existing to elevate them back to a monstrous status (ironically this happening when they held on pretty well against the God-Like Ubers that came in the intervening Gens)

I'd agree with this.

Since you mentioned Emerald, I've always held that Emerald is the best iteration of the story and I think part of what I like about it is that the player character is important to the story, but not integral - sure you awaken Rayquaza, but there's nothing inherently special about the player that enables them to do that. It's more that everyone else is too preoccupied to do it - Wallace unlocks the Sky Pillar but then hurries back to Sootopolis out of concern once the weather distortion spreads, Archie and Maxie are fixated on trying to control Groudon and Kyogre (apparently it never once occurs to either of them to try switching orbs for a second), and Steven... well, actually, Steven could have done it but let's ignore that.

But it's not anything inherent to the player, beyond their generic skill as a trainer, that makes the plot happen. They're not the chosen one (which I think totally works in other contexts - BW or HGSS for instance) nor do they have any special bond with Rayquaza or any of Hoenn's other legendaries in the way they're indicated to have in ORAS. In fact, it's one of those stories where if the player wasn't present things would largely probably turn out the same way - someone else could have defeated Team Aqua and Magma at Mt Chimney, and Rayquaza ends the fight between Groudon and Kyogre no matter who wakes it up. The player's role is important but not entirely irreplaceable.

All of this is to agree with your overall point that ORAS making the story feel "safer" lessens it slightly, because you get the sense that it'll turn out fine - Groudon/Kyogre is perfectly willing to wait and let you challenge them. In RS there's more of a sense of urgency, that you absolutely must catch/defeat them before the damage they're causing goes too far. In terms of tension and pacing it's definitely superior, and Emerald improves on that by making the civilians in Sootopolis actually give a shit - they're all assembled outside, looking on with concern as Kyogre and Groudon clash.

 

[pika pal]

All of this is to agree with your overall point that ORAS making the story feel "safer" lessens it slightly, because you get the sense that it'll turn out fine - Groudon/Kyogre is perfectly willing to wait and let you challenge them. In RS there's more of a sense of urgency, that you absolutely must catch/defeat them before the damage they're causing goes too far. In terms of tension and pacing it's definitely superior, and Emerald improves on that by making the civilians in Sootopolis actually give a shit - they're all assembled outside, looking on with concern as Kyogre and Groudon clash.

Since you mention this I also want to bring up that I like the Sootopolis clash on the map as well, because it achieves a similar effect in a different way: Groudon and Kyogre are these clashing behemoths that don't even bother to notice you surfing around the edge or even the middle of their fight.

 

[Esserise]

Personally, my issue with Emerald’s version of the scenario is that it’s kind of a hackneyed deus ex machina. First, the game steers you toward the Sky Pillar in the most abrupt way possible: Wallace reveals out of the blue that a third super-ancient titan exists. Then, for some reason, the Champion of Hoenn has to ask you, a literal 12-year-old who has never heard of the Sky Pillar (unless you already played RS), where you think Rayquaza is. Once you’ve process-of-eliminationed your way through the set of options that the game inorganically provides for you, though, you as the player don’t actually do anything significant. You don’t overcome any noteworthy environmental obstacles — the Sky Pillar is still in a pristine state where you can simply stroll up to the top. And you don’t battle anything or anyone important on your way to Rayquaza. All you’re responsible for is tapping Rayquaza on the shoulder and saying, “Hey can you go fix this for us? Thanks.” And then it does, magically, with a single roar. Kyogre and Groudon shrug and leave. The villains dutifully repent. Everything’s fixed now. But none of this was earned.

(Also, while I do think the whole “riding on the titan’s back” thing is a weird addition, the flipside of that is that ORAS is the only version of the weather crisis that directly suggests there’s a body count at the end of it. )

and Emerald improves on that by making the civilians in Sootopolis actually give a shit - they're all assembled outside, looking on with concern as Kyogre and Groudon clash.

In the RS / ORAS scenario, there’s not really much for those civilians to go out and actually see — since Groudon / Kyogre have holed up in the Cave of Origin, all that would be visible to the average Sootopolitan is scorching sunlight or torrential rain, and it makes sense that people would be huddled up in their homes for safety in such a scenario. It’s not that they don’t give a shit, it’s that they’re following normal protocols in response to a natural disaster.

 

[QuentinQuonce]

Personally, my issue with Emerald’s version of the scenario is that it’s kind of a hackneyed deus ex machina. First, the game steers you toward the Sky Pillar in the most abrupt way possible: Wallace reveals out of the blue that a third super-ancient titan exists. Then, for some reason, the Champion of Hoenn has to ask you, a literal 12-year-old who has never heard of the Sky Pillar (unless you already played RS), where you think Rayquaza is.

Yeah, the Wallace bit is... weird to say the least.

Since there's nothing stopping you from going to Pacifidlog and the surrounding areas, my assumption was always that the game devs assumed that you would have already explored the entirety of those southern routes and come to the Sky Pillar before meeting Wallace (perfectly possible to do, but the door's locked) thus making it plausible that you would know of it and be able to recommend it to him. Otherwise it's nonsensical, because the options are "don't know", two places you do know, and a third you don't.

Of course, this is due to the fact that you basically have free rein to do what you want once you're able to Surf beyond Lilycove, something RSE is fairly hands-off about. Much as ORAS tweaked things so that you were railroaded into beating Winona before being able to proceed beyond Fortree, I imagine that a hypothetical Emerald remake would have necessitated the player to complete some sort of mission in the vicinity of Pacifidlog as a condition to gaining access to Sootopolis/Seafloor Cavern. Or at the very least heavily hinted about it so that you at least knew the name and could go "oh, I've heard about another location..."

Once you’ve process-of-eliminationed your way through the set of options that the game inorganically provides for you, though, you as the player don’t actually do anything significant. You don’t overcome any noteworthy environmental obstacles — the Sky Pillar is still in a pristine state where you can simply stroll up to the top. And you don’t battle anything or anyone important on your way to Rayquaza. All you’re responsible for is tapping Rayquaza on the shoulder and saying, “Hey can you go fix this for us? Thanks.” And then it does, magically, with a single roar. Kyogre and Groudon shrug and leave. The villains dutifully repent. Everything’s fixed now. But none of this was earned.

Yeah, can't argue here. What's weird about it is the Mirage Tower was seemingly created as a practice round for the Sky Pillar, since it has the same basic puzzle, so it would have felt reasonable to progress through a gauntlet.

While I appreciate the little implied detail that apparently Rayquaza landing on the Sky Pillar once it returns apparently shook the place badly enough to cause damage to the place and crack the floor, it is dull that the location is so pristine on your first visit. Perhaps they thought the puzzle was too difficult for most people, since it takes some quick finger-work to zigzag around some of the corners without falling. Maybe they just thought it'd be boring to do the same thing twice if you want to return to catch it.

I don't fully agree that it's dull to awaken Rayquaza - I remember being quite awed the first time I played, and there's a definite sense of "what's going to happen now?" when it flies off. Sure the climax is a bit abrupt and the return to clear weather is very quick, I wish it had gone on a little longer. But you have to consider the context: at the time that cutscene was very impressive by the standards of what had come before. It wasn't the fully realised 3D scene the trailers displayed, but Pokemon's visuals have never been that spectacular. I recall a friend once looking at my DS screen and saying "the graphics are incredible" in hushed tones when DP came out, which... sure.

And I actually really like the way Archie and Maxie's repentance is handled. Wallace says it wouldn't hurt to hear what they have to say, but I didn't get the sense that all's well and they're completely forgiven; it's more that everyone, them included, fully agrees they've been stupid and reckless and they need to make amends. Their goodbye scene at Mt Pyre indicates to me quite strongly that they're going to be spending their time making amends from here on out (fun fact, I used to determinedly avoid ever doing that sequence whenever I played RSE as I found it incredibly sad).

 

[Cobalt Empoleon]

It's odd because you can get a call from May/Brendan at some point in the late game (maybe it's guaranteed?) where they mention seeing a big green Pokemon in the sky near Pacifidlog, but that still doesn't help you know that Rayquaza's at a place called the Sky Pillar. Seems like they could have added a line mentioning the Sky Pillar by name so it feels vaguely like you're stringing together clues to solve a puzzle. Honestly, there are a million ways it could have been done better.

I'll always defend Emerald over ORAS, though. For all its excellent features, I find that ORAS fails at the most important part of a Pokemon game: creating fun and engaging battles. The power level of maingame NPC trainers didn't increase in any meaningful way from RSE to ORAS (besides a couple of Megas I guess) and in many ways regressed from RS and especially Emerald. Meanwhile, the player has so many more tools to play with in the remakes that every battle feels completely trivial, even if you don't make use of stuff like the buffed Exp. Share or the free Lati@s.

And this isn't just 'surprise surprise, Pokemon games are easier as an adult' because even now I occasionally go back and play Emerald and it's still a more interesting challenge than ORAS.

 

[Castersvarog]

It's odd because you can get a call from May/Brendan at some point in the late game (maybe it's guaranteed?) where they mention seeing a big green Pokemon in the sky near Pacifidlog, but that still doesn't help you know that Rayquaza's at a place called the Sky Pillar. Seems like they could have added a line mentioning the Sky Pillar by name so it feels vaguely like you're stringing together clues to solve a puzzle. Honestly, there are a million ways it could have been done better.

Heck, in Fortree city, there’s an npc who says they saw a giant green serpent flying in the sky, so they could have added in at least a text box about how it went towards Pacifidlog town to at least hint towards the player. And iirc there’s at least a few npcs who mention said flying serpent, be it through regular text boxes or pokenav calls, so there could have been several opportunities to hint towards where it’s heading to make you explore and find out about the sky pillar early.

 

[pika pal]

Yeah, can't argue here. What's weird about it is the Mirage Tower was seemingly created as a practice round for the Sky Pillar, since it has the same basic puzzle, so it would have felt reasonable to progress through a gauntlet.

While I appreciate the little implied detail that apparently Rayquaza landing on the Sky Pillar once it returns apparently shook the place badly enough to cause damage to the place and crack the floor, it is dull that the location is so pristine on your first visit. Perhaps they thought the puzzle was too difficult for most people, since it takes some quick finger-work to zigzag around some of the corners without falling. Maybe they just thought it'd be boring to do the same thing twice if you want to return to catch it.

The most likely reason is because going back for the Mach bike would be a massive pacebreaker if you had the Acro Bike at this point, both for the distance and because of the story in progress. I think they could have presented other obstacles (maybe a battle without capture option ala Kyurem in B2W2) before Rayquaza goes to fix things, but the floor puzzle does present a potential wall to continuing if the player picked the wrong bike (would work better with the Gen 4 Gear system or Remakes giving both bikes)

 

[AztecCroc]

The most likely reason is because going back for the Mach bike would be a massive pacebreaker if you had the Acro Bike at this point, both for the distance and because of the story in progress. I think they could have presented other obstacles (maybe a battle without capture option ala Kyurem in B2W2) before Rayquaza goes to fix things, but the floor puzzle does present a potential wall to continuing if the player picked the wrong bike (would work better with the Gen 4 Gear system or Remakes giving both bikes)

Battle without capture wasn't a thing that was in the engine until BW2 though.

 

[QuentinQuonce]

Battle without capture wasn't a thing that was in the engine until BW2 though.

Er... are we sure about that? Trainer battles have been a thing since Gen I, not to mention the ghost Marowak. Seems like it wouldn't be too hard to use the same "it dodged the ball" mechanic FRLG used literally one game earlier.

 

[pika pal]

Er... are we sure about that? Trainer battles have been a thing since Gen I, not to mention the ghost Marowak. Seems like it wouldn't be too hard to use the same "it dodged the ball" mechanic FRLG used literally one game earlier.

Did XD and Colosseum run on the same mechanics because those also had scenarios like the Battle Sims where Capture wasn't allowed or things like turning off Snags when the Machine was stolen in XD.

 

[QuentinQuonce]

Did XD and Colosseum run on the same mechanics because those also had scenarios like the Battle Sims where Capture wasn't allowed or things like turning off Snags when the Machine was stolen in XD.

Broadly yes, they probably do, as they just replicate the battle system from the main series. It's honestly never occurred to me whether you could catch Pokemon in Sims (has anyone tried it? I believe in most if not all scripted sim battles you're given a custom bag, which wouldn't include Pokeballs, but I expect someone could hack them in).

For the part of XD when the Snag Machine is missing I'd assume the game just sets a flag that temporarily disables the ability to snag, so basically the same scenario as is the case for all non-Shadow encounters.

 

[AztecCroc]

Broadly yes, they probably do, as they just replicate the battle system from the main series. It's honestly never occurred to me whether you could catch Pokemon in Sims (has anyone tried it? I believe in most if not all scripted sim battles you're given a custom bag, which wouldn't include Pokeballs, but I expect someone could hack them in).

For the part of XD when the Snag Machine is missing I'd assume the game just sets a flag that temporarily disables the ability to snag, so basically the same scenario as is the case for all non-Shadow encounters.

Did XD and Colosseum run on the same mechanics because those also had scenarios like the Battle Sims where Capture wasn't allowed or things like turning off Snags when the Machine was stolen in XD.

1. The Orre games are their own separate "fork" of the engine, there is nothing from them in the later games.
2. The Battle Sims are trainer battles, you fight a Sim Trainer, the Pokémon are never "wild".

Er... are we sure about that? Trainer battles have been a thing since Gen I, not to mention the ghost Marowak. Seems like it wouldn't be too hard to use the same "it dodged the ball" mechanic FRLG used literally one game earlier.

Considering that Emerald doesn't actually have the code for any of the Pokémon Tower mechanics? Very.

 

[QuentinQuonce]

1. The Orre games are their own separate "fork" of the engine, there is nothing from them in the later games.
2. The Battle Sims are trainer battles, you fight a Sim Trainer, the Pokémon are never "wild".

Considering that Emerald doesn't actually have the code for any of the Pokémon Tower mechanics? Very.

1. Yep, I thought so (said as much on this thread)

2. True, I was responding to Pika's point about them. But if you can hack the game to catch trainer's Pokemon, I assume it'd be possible to catch Sim Pokemon (whether you could keep them after, I've no clue)

Emerald might not have that code, but the fact that FRLG did means that the functionality exists and could potentially have been added.

EDIT: Forgot something, RSE also has one battle where fleeing is disabled (if "run" is selected during the first battle against the Poochyena/Zigzagoon, Birch protests and it doesn't work) while Battle Facility matches obviously also disable the bag altogether. So if they really wanted to, they could absolutely have done a "battle without capture" scenario. Though I expect some clever person would eventually have found a way to glitch around it, as so often happens.

 

[MisogiKurakawa]

To throw my hat into the ring regarding the genning debate, I would argue the biggest fundamental issue with Pokemon is that of optimization. For a franchise which is supposedly about building your own team of your own choice, Gamefreak has infested the game with supermechanics and increasingly overturned Legendaries/Mythicals/Ultra Beasts/Paradoxes who are so overwhelming that they essentially demand players operate in very specific ways just to not be destroyed. Which, when it comes down to that, makes teambuilding a far more automated and ridged process than a meaningful, organic act of matching teams against each other, which I think is what GF ultimately want.

Like, anyone remember when, in the Tekken 7 tournament for EVO Japan 2020, 6 of the Top 8 were all Leroy? That got a pretty sharp and justifiable backlash, and saw the team heavily nerf Leroy just so that such a thing wouldn't happen again. And yet Flutter Mane being on 71% of all Worlds 2023 teams hardly even catches a response, because it's just expected to be part of the "perfect strategy". Simple as that.

 

[Worldie]

Like, anyone remember when, in the Tekken 7 tournament for EVO Japan 2020, 6 of the Top 8 were all Leroy? That got a pretty sharp and justifiable backlash, and saw the team heavily nerf Leroy just so that such a thing wouldn't happen again. And yet Flutter Mane being on 71% of all Worlds 2023 teams hardly even catches a response, because it's just expected to be part of the "perfect strategy". Simple as that.

This I disagree with.

GameFreaks has definitely shown they do not want "all teams to be the same", since gen 6-ish they have been always nerfing hyperdominant strategies, and specifically in gen 9 we saw both major stall nerfs (which was mainly to stop stall strategies in BSS), Scald getting nuked from the planet (it was the go-to water stab in VGC, and lord knows how much scarier Iron Bundle would have been without 15% chance to lose you the game), Zacian nerfs, Regieleki nerfs (both dominant forces last gen VGC, Zacian showing a FlutterMane-tier usage), and a few more.

The "problem" is just that Pokemon as of now doesn't do "patches". The nerfs happen between generations, so if a dominant force appears, it's likely to stay that way for the entirety of the generation.
Their current attempt at making megatame varied has been progressively introducing more pokemon as the game goes, which was mostly successful, but it doesn't do much if a force is so dominant that manages to actually stay good for 4 separate formats.

(Which does bring me to make fun of "Pokemon players", which will complain when a pokemon has wasted stats it cannot or doesn't want to use, but also complain when a pokemon like Flutter Mane gets minmaxed stats and surprise surprise it becomes dominant)

 

[Karxrida]

Scald getting nuked from the planet (it was the go-to water stab in VGC, and lord knows how much scarier Iron Bundle would have been without 15% chance to lose you the game)

Minor tangent, but last I checked Ice-types (except for Crabominable apparently?!?) are not allowed to have Scald. Game Freak could have theoretically thrown a curveball here, but there's a decent chance Iron Bundle wouldn't be given access to the move.

 

[MisogiKurakawa]

This I disagree with.

GameFreaks has definitely shown they do not want "all teams to be the same", since gen 6-ish they have been always nerfing hyperdominant strategies, and specifically in gen 9 we saw both major stall nerfs (which was mainly to stop stall strategies in BSS), Scald getting nuked from the planet (it was the go-to water stab in VGC, and lord knows how much scarier Iron Bundle would have been without 15% chance to lose you the game), Zacian nerfs, Regieleki nerfs (both dominant forces last gen VGC, Zacian showing a FlutterMane-tier usage), and a few more.

The "problem" is just that Pokemon as of now doesn't do "patches". The nerfs happen between generations, so if a dominant force appears, it's likely to stay that way for the entirety of the generation.
Their current attempt at making megatame varied has been progressively introducing more pokemon as the game goes, which was mostly successful, but it doesn't do much if a force is so dominant that manages to actually stay good for 4 separate formats.

(Which does bring me to make fun of "Pokemon players", which will complain when a pokemon has wasted stats it cannot or doesn't want to use, but also complain when a pokemon like Flutter Mane gets minmaxed stats and surprise surprise it becomes dominant)

You misconstrued my point. My point isn't that GF doesn't do balance updates efficiently (which is absolutely an issue), it's that optimization is so prevalent in the meta that something like Flutter Mane is barely enough to cause serious debate in the playerbase. To them, the use of Flutter Mane isn't a bug, but a feature, because the ultimate point of comp isn't having fun with teams you enjoy, but winning through the theoretical best and strongest teams possible. Hence, why genning is considered an "optimal" method for play, and not literally just using cheating devices like it objectively is.

 

[Worldie]

You misconstrued my point. My point isn't that GF doesn't do balance updates efficiently (which is absolutely an issue), it's that optimization is so prevalent in the meta that something like Flutter Mane is barely enough to cause serious debate in the playerbase. To them, the use of Flutter Mane isn't a bug, but a feature, because the ultimate point of comp isn't having fun with teams you enjoy, but winning through the theoretical best and strongest teams possible.

I see, though, I don't think that's telling the entire story.

Competitive Pokemon to most degree shapes the playerbase in same way MOBAs or TCGs do: people play to win, so for obvious reasons, they are going to try to use their best.
This produces "metas" which can and will often have reappearing faces.
Flutter Mane in 72% of the teams isn't exactly different from Tearlaments being everywhere in YGO, or Zeri having near 100% p/b rate in League of Legends, and in all fields you will have both a side of the playerbase which is fine with "just use what's op at a given time", and another who'll be like "zzz same champs all games".
If you have watched the Worlds streams, you definitely would have noticed many of the chatters complain about FlutterMane and Urshifu in every team, in same way they complain of Incineroar or Lando-T or whatever is the fotm pokemon. And so do actual players, however the main difference is that the players have fame and money on the line and are not bothered too much by it since they have to deal with it regardless. I am quite confident most VGC players don't exactly find fun when a meta is "either play X or X's counter", I don't think anyone remotely enjoyed playing CHALK, I doubt anyone enjoyed the omnipresence of Incineroar + Lando-T + potentially 1-2 more intimidates in gen 7, I don't think anyone liked the Zacian-centric meta of last gen 8 VGC completely nuking teambuilding, and if you hear any relevant VGCer in this generation they will complain of how insanely busted Urshifu specifically is without Dynamax to balance it out and how they hate its existance. (as Flutter Mane has counterplay and some depth to its sets, Urshifu doesn't, it does one thing but that thing it does far too well)

TLDR: Pokemon is exhibiting the same scenario regarding centralization of other more developed e-sports, on both casual and professional levels, and it's unlikely to actually change due to GF's reluctancy (is this a word?) to actually do competitive patches or banlists and only doing balance changes with new releases.

 

[MisogiKurakawa]

I see, though, I don't think that's telling the entire story.

Competitive Pokemon to most degree shapes the playerbase in same way MOBAs or TCGs do: people play to win, so for obvious reasons, they are going to try to use their best.
This produces "metas" which can and will often have reappearing faces.
Flutter Mane in 72% of the teams isn't exactly different from Tearlaments being everywhere in YGO, or Zeri having near 100% p/b rate in League of Legends, and in all fields you will have both a side of the playerbase which is fine with "just use what's op at a given time", and another who'll be like "zzz same champs all games".
If you have watched the Worlds streams, you definitely would have noticed many of the chatters complain about FlutterMane and Urshifu in every team, in same way they complain of Incineroar or Lando-T or whatever is the fotm pokemon. And so do actual players, however the main difference is that the players have fame and money on the line and are not bothered too much by it since they have to deal with it regardless. I am quite confident most VGC players don't exactly find fun when a meta is "either play X or X's counter", I don't think anyone remotely enjoyed playing CHALK, I doubt anyone enjoyed the omnipresence of Incineroar + Lando-T + potentially 1-2 more intimidates in gen 7, I don't think anyone liked the Zacian-centric meta of last gen 8 VGC completely nuking teambuilding, and if you hear any relevant VGCer in this generation they will complain of how insanely busted Urshifu specifically is without Dynamax to balance it out and how they hate its existance. (as Flutter Mane has counterplay and some depth to its sets, Urshifu doesn't, it does one thing but that thing it does far too well)

TLDR: Pokemon is exhibiting the same scenario regarding centralization of other more developed e-sports, on both casual and professional levels, and it's unlikely to actually change due to GF's reluctancy (is this a word?) to actually do competitive patches or banlists and only doing balance changes with new releases.

Oh, this I agree on 100%. It's a nuanced subject, which has to take into account multiple levels of interaction between players to understand, but definitely at its core speaks to the weird degree of apathy GF seems to have towards competitive. Like, I don't think they resent Pokemon's competitive sphere, but they certainly seem to treat it and the games as a whole as two disconnected markets, in spite of competitive being about as logical a conclusion for the franchise's design as any other E-Sport.

 

[Ransei]

PSS, top notch pvp battling, a Vs. Recorder with a Mock Battle function, a fleshed out Secret Base system, rewarding shinies, easy grinding, a Battle Maison, and full Natdex accessibility bar mythicals with just the 2 prior games > a Battle Frontier but absolutely none of the above.

 

[Worldie]

Oh, this I agree on 100%. It's a nuanced subject, which has to take into account multiple levels of interaction between players to understand, but definitely at its core speaks to the weird degree of apathy GF seems to have towards competitive. Like, I don't think they resent Pokemon's competitive sphere, but they certainly seem to treat it and the games as a whole as two disconnected markets, in spite of competitive being about as logical a conclusion for the franchise's design as any other E-Sport.

Honestly I don't think it's "apathy" per se, rather, they don't quite know how to deal with it.

Before mentioning GameFreaks, remember this is ultimately Nintendo we're talking about. Major Japanese companies.

Japanese companies have... difficulty dealing with such huge scale fan/player interaction when it isn't "make more gachas to milk money possibly featuring big tiddies".
Remember the shitshows that happened with Smash competitive scene during Covid? "We'd rather let the game die and have noone play it than let you mod it to play remotely"
If it wasnt for Covid times, I'm not even sure we'd even have co-streamed Worlds from localized streamers. And players as well as streamers are still completely forbidden to show any external company mark other Pokemon, GameFreak's and Nintendo's. Every major competitor is fighting to the nails to slot as much external advertising in their streams (without resorting to actual Twitch/Youtube ads) to squeeze more money from investors, yet TPCI is forcing players to cover their shirts if they dare have a brand on them.
Oh and let's not forget streams literally getting DMCAd if they shown Necrozma's Z-move in gen 7.

All of this not surprising comping from a culture where many big videogame brands still apply scene blocks to their entire games or threaten to "ban you" (whatever this ever means on single player games) if you stream their games due to obsessive protection of their IP.

Nintendo/TPCI/Someone higher up is definitely trying to push Pokemon (both TCG and VGC) into E-sports territory. The problem is that they don't know "how" to make the game big, and if they do, they're well skeptical about it.

After Worlds ended (in fact iirc they announced this as it was in progress), they announced a significant reshaping of the events, adding more money to regionals/internationals, and opening the way for brand advertising as well as (potentially) official private tournaments in the future.
These are all things that have been a thing in actual e-sports for a while. The Pokemon brand itself is not enough to carry people to play it competitively, you need to actually be able to generate money (both for players and external investors). Whichever people in suites oversee Pokemon smell the potential money to be made, but are still struggling to do baby steps in a environment that's generating billions oversea, which is pretty funny.

 

[MisogiKurakawa]

Honestly I don't think it's "apathy" per se, rather, they don't quite know how to deal with it.

Before mentioning GameFreaks, remember this is ultimately Nintendo we're talking about. Major Japanese companies.

Japanese companies have... difficulty dealing with such huge scale fan/player interaction when it isn't "make more gachas to milk money possibly featuring big tiddies".
Remember the shitshows that happened with Smash competitive scene during Covid? "We'd rather let the game die and have noone play it than let you mod it to play remotely"
If it wasnt for Covid times, I'm not even sure we'd even have co-streamed Worlds from localized streamers. And players as well as streamers are still completely forbidden to show any external company mark other Pokemon, GameFreak's and Nintendo's. Every major competitor is fighting to the nails to slot as much external advertising in their streams (without resorting to actual Twitch/Youtube ads) to squeeze more money from investors, yet TPCI is forcing players to cover their shirts if they dare have a brand on them.
Oh and let's not forget streams literally getting DMCAd if they shown Necrozma's Z-move in gen 7.

All of this not surprising comping from a culture where many big videogame brands still apply scene blocks to their entire games or threaten to "ban you" (whatever this ever means on single player games) if you stream their games due to obsessive protection of their IP.

Nintendo/TPCI/Someone higher up is definitely trying to push Pokemon (both TCG and VGC) into E-sports territory. The problem is that they don't know "how" to make the game big, and if they do, they're well skeptical about it.

After Worlds ended (in fact iirc they announced this as it was in progress), they announced a significant reshaping of the events, adding more money to regionals/internationals, and opening the way for brand advertising as well as (potentially) official private tournaments in the future.
These are all things that have been a thing in actual e-sports for a while. The Pokemon brand itself is not enough to carry people to play it competitively, you need to actually be able to generate money (both for players and external investors). Whichever people in suites oversee Pokemon smell the potential money to be made, but are still struggling to do baby steps in a environment that's generating billions oversea, which is pretty funny.

Regarding spoilers, it's less obsessive protection of IP, and more just that Japan highly values spoiler culture, to where often Wikipedia summaries for mystery novels are written to leave the solution out. It's fundamentally just an act of respect towards the creators.

 

[pika pal]

The big problem I think Pokemon as an E-Sport runs into is that too much of the teambuilding process runs on things that TPC does not want you to be able to change openly about your Pokemon. Note that the following may not all apply to VGC's Meta but I think they are worth mentioning as part of the overall design.

Beforehand this was the aspect of IVs and Nature, things intrinsic to the Pokemon and either hidden or dressed as part of their personality so that changing them might break the "Animal Buddies" aspect of the IP. Even with changes brought on by Bottle Caps or Nature Mints, they don't make these very accessible and they're still in minor ways constricted by that Aesthetic value: Hyper Training is "I'll make your Pokemon as strong as it can be!" to disguise the IV buff, but also means there's no flavorful equivalent for reducing a stat and making a Pokemon "worse" at something as you often see players desiring for Confuse/Foul Play or Trick Room optimization.

This also extends to really weird edge cases like Gender (for Enamorus Contact) and Shiny-ness (see things like the M13 Beasts having special moves but then being nature/shiny locked to use them together) that a saavy player might account for in Genning/hunting in order to add that little extra advantage (Before, if my Entei wasn't Shiny, there was no ES threat, but I could also run a non-event Shiny Entei to bluff the move while using Jolly for a Speed advantage, for one example).

Things like changing the Movepools or Abilities are reasonable enough, it brings to mind things like MOBA's where you have mid-competition progression paths or a Side-Deck in YGO to change your deck for Game 2 based on Game 1's strat. EV's could fall into this category as well if they didn't require "training" every time to distribute them rather than "a fully trained Pokemon has X amount of EV's that you can redistribute from their Summary Screen anytime". Pokemon was designed around a brand image that resulted in mechanics not being designed for true formal competition (as opposed to locals or Playground tournaments between friends who probably didn't look too heavily into this), and now it's coming back to bite the Esports push because TPC is trying to put Band-aids on a Progeny that was raised a completely different way than they need for this (not wrong, but the direction is totally off).

A big reason Genning is so prominent is because Pokemon is not designed to encourage you to hunt for and drastically change your Pokemon to achieve an optimal result (Optimized stuff emerges for sure but I doubt GF planned for Incineroar or Landorus-T or Fluttermane to appear on literally every other team that enters), at most to adjust the one you already raised such that each change takes the same amount of effort and thus takes disproportionately more work vs reward for tiny adjustments. This is all with regards to having the Pokemon itself and changing it to fit a new role, as opposed to when each attempt to get the proper mon can take potential weeks just to see (Urshifu requires a long run of the IoA to get the other Evolution even before potentially having to reroll or respec, and Enamorus is another infamous one of late).

tl;dr Pokemon wants to do eSports but the Pokemon are still your animal friends instead of Units for Gameplay, which clash hard for accessibility.

 

[A_Wild_Noob_Appeared!]

This also extends to really weird edge cases like Gender (for Enamorus Contact) and Shiny-ness (see things like the M13 Beasts having special moves but then being nature/shiny locked to use them together) that a saavy player might account for in Genning/hunting in order to add that little extra advantage (Before, if my Entei wasn't Shiny, there was no ES threat, but I could also run a non-event Shiny Entei to bluff the move while using Jolly for a Speed advantage, for one example).

Side track, but I'll always been annoyed that it took until Gen 8 for Entei to learn Flare Blitz outside of events. It got Sacred Fire of all things by level-up two generations prior, even though it had never even been an event move.

 

[MisogiKurakawa]

The big problem I think Pokemon as an E-Sport runs into is that too much of the teambuilding process runs on things that TPC does not want you to be able to change openly about your Pokemon. Note that the following may not all apply to VGC's Meta but I think they are worth mentioning as part of the overall design.

Beforehand this was the aspect of IVs and Nature, things intrinsic to the Pokemon and either hidden or dressed as part of their personality so that changing them might break the "Animal Buddies" aspect of the IP. Even with changes brought on by Bottle Caps or Nature Mints, they don't make these very accessible and they're still in minor ways constricted by that Aesthetic value: Hyper Training is "I'll make your Pokemon as strong as it can be!" to disguise the IV buff, but also means there's no flavorful equivalent for reducing a stat and making a Pokemon "worse" at something as you often see players desiring for Confuse/Foul Play or Trick Room optimization.

This also extends to really weird edge cases like Gender (for Enamorus Contact) and Shiny-ness (see things like the M13 Beasts having special moves but then being nature/shiny locked to use them together) that a saavy player might account for in Genning/hunting in order to add that little extra advantage (Before, if my Entei wasn't Shiny, there was no ES threat, but I could also run a non-event Shiny Entei to bluff the move while using Jolly for a Speed advantage, for one example).

Things like changing the Movepools or Abilities are reasonable enough, it brings to mind things like MOBA's where you have mid-competition progression paths or a Side-Deck in YGO to change your deck for Game 2 based on Game 1's strat. EV's could fall into this category as well if they didn't require "training" every time to distribute them rather than "a fully trained Pokemon has X amount of EV's that you can redistribute from their Summary Screen anytime". Pokemon was designed around a brand image that resulted in mechanics not being designed for true formal competition (as opposed to locals or Playground tournaments between friends who probably didn't look too heavily into this), and now it's coming back to bite the Esports push because TPC is trying to put Band-aids on a Progeny that was raised a completely different way than they need for this (not wrong, but the direction is totally off).

A big reason Genning is so prominent is because Pokemon is not designed to encourage you to hunt for and drastically change your Pokemon to achieve an optimal result (Optimized stuff emerges for sure but I doubt GF planned for Incineroar or Landorus-T or Fluttermane to appear on literally every other team that enters), at most to adjust the one you already raised such that each change takes the same amount of effort and thus takes disproportionately more work vs reward for tiny adjustments. This is all with regards to having the Pokemon itself and changing it to fit a new role, as opposed to when each attempt to get the proper mon can take potential weeks just to see (Urshifu requires a long run of the IoA to get the other Evolution even before potentially having to reroll or respec, and Enamorus is another infamous one of late).

tl;dr Pokemon wants to do eSports but the Pokemon are still your animal friends instead of Units for Gameplay, which clash hard for accessibility.

Yeah, from my perspective, there's basically only two solutions to the genning problem, insofar as it is a social practice.

1. They just go all in on disconnecting competitive from the actual game and just establish a full-on Showdown-esque battle simulator for competitive formats.
2. They enact some kind of hard reset to the idea of competitive that actively pushes the community away from optimization, thus making genning no longer an incentive.

Neither are exactly beneficial scenarios - I really dislike the former from just a conceptual POV, and the latter would probably alienate a lot of people who staked their careers on the game as it currently is - but something has to be done regardless. They can't just keep betting on half-measures to somehow bail them out constantly.