Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion

[Morkal]

Beartic

"Beartic is capable of freezing its own breath and will create pathways across oceans using this technique. Should it get tired while swimming, Beartic will also use its breath to freeze the water it is swimming in so that it can lie down and rest" - Bulbapedia

"The puns in this post are going to be unbearable" - Morkal
​

BEARTIC BASE STATS​	LEVEL 100 STAT RANGE​
HP: 95​	300 - 394​
Attack: 130​	238 - 394​
Defense: 80​	148 - 284​
Sp. Atk: 70​	130 - 262​
Sp. Def: 80​	148 - 284​
Speed: 50​	94 - 218​

Usable Physical Moves

Aqua Jet, Body Press, Body Slam, Brick Break, Close Combat, Crunch, Earthquake, Focus Punch, Heavy Slam, Ice Punch, Icicle Crash, Liquidation, Low Kick, Play Rough, Rock Slide, Shadow Claw, Stone Edge, Superpower, Tera Blast, Trailblaze, X-Scissor

Usable Utility Moves

Bulk Up, Encore, Protect, Rest, Substitute, Swords Dance, Taunt, Yawn

I haven't made a humungous post about a niche mon for quite a while (finals week + work is makin' me feel burnt out), so I decided after some testing it's time to bring a Gen 5 favorite to everyone's attention - Beartic. Now you might be thinking "Oh really, you're going to tell me that with Baxcalibur in OU, Beartic has a place in the tier?" Not only am I going to tell you he has a place in the tier, but I'm also going to tell you about several unique OU niches that no other Pokemon (including Baxcalibur) can replicate thanks to a variety of specialized and powerful traits. So without any more nonsense from my very lacking sense of humor, let's jump into Beartic's qualities!

Disclaimer: Beartic needs specific support (rain, hazard clearing, etc) in order to work - while Beartic is powerful, if you're expecting to just paste him onto a team composition in need of a Physical Ice-type attacker, just run Baxcalibur instead. Beartic is for those who want to handle several specific threats simultaneously that Baxcalibur can't while also being able to fulfill the role of a powerful Physical Ice-type attacker + have additional role compression with weather + movepool options. Please plan your team compositions carefully.

Summarized Advantages of Beartic

This is a small section for those who want to know what Beartic brings to the table without reading the full essay-length post​

• Beartic works as a powerhouse Swift Swim user that not only takes advantage of other people's Rain usage (hi Walking Wake) along with working for your own Rain teams as well.
• Beartic is the only non-Water-type Swift Swim user in the game (with the currently unreleased Overqwil/Qwilfish-Hisui being exceptions, but they're not in the game yet), and additionally loses its Fire-type weakness under rain.
• Beartic's combination of power physical Ice STAB coming off of a base 130 Attack, Tera Water + Rain boosted Liquidation pummels a huge portion of OU and exerts tremendous offensive pressure.
• Fantastic coverage options such as Close Combat, Crunch, Play Rough, Stone Edge, or Earthquake mean that Beartic is going to severely dent just about anything that switches in with proper prediction.
• Beartic's unique offensive traits and coverage further allow Beartic to act as a lure, punishing Pokemon that would be able to handle Baxcalibur such as Bulky Volcarona.
• Access to Trailblaze means that Beartic can reliably boost its own Speed outside of Rain while still being able to use Assault Vest.
• Beartic has useful utility movepool options including Swords Dance, Encore, Taunt, Yawn, Substitute + Focus Punch, and Priority Aqua Jet (also boosted by Tera Water + Rain)
• Beartic's Mono-Ice typing means that it does not share a Dragon-type weakness with Baxcalibur and maintains an important resistance to Ice-type moves rather than having a neutrality to them.

While Beartic has many sets it can run, we're going to be talking about one in particular (and by far my favorite) - Assault Vest Swift Swim Trailblaze Attacker.

Waterbeard
(Before and after the Ice Age)

Beartic @ Assault Vest
Ability: Swift Swim
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Icicle Crash
- Liquidation
- Trailblaze
- Close Combat

Trailblaze + Speed Utility

Before we dive into the nitty gritty of this set; I'd like to share with you the mindset that I commonly utilize while playing with Beartic - First step, switch in Beartic on a Pokemon that it can pressure out such as Clodsire or Ting-Lu - then you have three options that will commonly happen -​

1. They're going to switch.​
2. They're going to use Protect to scout.​
3. They're going to stay in and attempt to either set up or sacrifice the Pokemon.​

In all three situations, you're likely going to click Trailblaze first most often before any other move
​

Why? Let's look at what Trailblaze does first - Trailblaze boosts Beartic's speed by +1 while also slightly damaging the Pokemon (although Trailblaze can do unexpectedly big damage if the switch-in doesn't resist or is hit super effectively by Grass moves). With 252 speed EVs and a neutral nature, +1 brings Beartic up to 298 speed (equivalent to a base 86 speed Pokemon with 252 EVs and a speed boosting nature) - meaning that it outspeeds any base 98 speed or lower Pokemon that has a neutral speed nature, even if they have a full 252 EVs in speed and a base 98 needs at least 152 EVs with a speed-boosting nature to outspeed +1 Beartic. Additionally, this means that +1 Beartic outspeeds any fully invested base 85-speed or lower Pokemon even if they have 252 Speed EVs with a boosting nature and ties base 86 Speed Pokemon with a speed-boosting nature and full EV investment (such as Timid Glimmora or Timid Rotom-Wash).

What do all these benchmarks mean? It means that Beartic at +1 will always outspeed the following OU Pokemon (without Choice Scarf) - Amoonguss, Armarouge, Azumarill, Breloom, Ceruledge, Clodsire, Corviknight, Dondozo, Dragonite, Garganacl, Gholdengo, Hatterene, Iron Hands, Kingambit, Orthworm, Skeledirge, Slowking, Ting-Lu, Torkoal, and Toxapex. Additionally, at +1, Beartic will outspeed Baxcalibur, Glimmora, Great Tusk, Hydreigon, and Rotom-Wash if they aren't running a speed-boosting nature. This means that you will naturally outspeed most bulky threats in the tier along with some notably fierce offensive threats as well. This might either cause your opponent to double-switch or could potentially even mean they have to sacrifice a Pokemon if you're in the mid-late game.

So besides the speed utility, what else is so important about Trailblaze? Baxcalibur can use Dragon Dance, so why are we even bothering to talk about Beartic? Trailblaze has two specific advantages over Dragon Dance - first is that it is immune to Taunt, and second is that it's a damaging move, meaning that Beartic can run Assault Vest with it, giving Beartic some vital special bulk (we'll get into that later). There's also a third advantage - Trailblaze chip means that Air Balloon/Focus Sash/Multiscale are all broken upon being hit, which can be critical in handling specific threats. and tense situations. It's also worth noting that with Rain and Swift Swim up, Beartic reaches 398 Speed with no boost and 596 speed at +1, allowing it to, without Trailblaze boosts, outspeed every OU Pokemon without Choice Scarf except for +Speed Dragapult.

Offensive Capabilities + Tera Water
​

So now that we understand why Beartic's access to Trailblaze is crucial for this set to work, let's go over some of its offensive capabilities that allow Beartic to justify a slot on teams. First, let's go over its bread and butter STAB - Icicle Crash. Long story short, even though it's less powerful than Baxcalibur's Icicle Crash, that doesn't mean it doesn't hit like a truck.

Icicle Crash Damage Calculations

252+ Atk Beartic Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 172+ Def Amoonguss: 302-356 (69.9 - 82.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Beartic Icicle Crash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Breloom: 368-434 (140.9 - 166.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Beartic Icicle Crash vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Clodsire: 458-540 (98.9 - 116.6%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO

252+ Atk Beartic Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Cyclizar: 432-510 (125.5 - 148.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Beartic Icicle Crash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dragapult: 390-458 (123 - 144.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Beartic Icicle Crash vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Multiscale Dragonite: 318-374 (98.4 - 115.7%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Beartic Icicle Crash vs. 144 HP / 0 Def Multiscale Dragonite: 320-378 (89.1 - 105.2%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO

252+ Atk Beartic Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 640-756 (152.3 - 180%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Beartic Icicle Crash vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Great Tusk: 242-288 (65.2 - 77.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Beartic Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Great Tusk: 182-216 (41.9 - 49.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Beartic Icicle Crash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hydreigon: 336-396 (103.3 - 121.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Beartic Icicle Crash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Meowscarada: 408-482 (139.2 - 164.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Beartic Icicle Crash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Roaring Moon: 408-480 (116.2 - 136.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Beartic Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Ting-Lu: 254-300 (49.4 - 58.3%) -- 66.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
​

Icicle Crash also has a 30% flinch chance, which is nice for some slower Pokemon. While Icicle Crash's power is great for handling some monstrous threats, it doesn't justify Beartic's inclusion on an OU team, so what's next? Liquidation, in addition to boosts that Beartic gets within the spell of Rain. Liquidation is a base 85-power Water-type Physical move with a 20% chance to drop an opponent's Defense stat, this means that Beartic has a chance to muscle through specific threats that would normally be able to weather its attacks. Additionally, Tera Water means that Liquidation gains STAB, in addition to that, Rain boosts Liquidation's power even further. So to demonstrate, I'm going to show you two different types of damage calculations - Tera Water Liquidation outside of rain, and Tera Water Liquidation inside of rain.

Liquidation Damage Calculations (Tera Water, No Rain)

252+ Atk Tera Water Beartic Liquidation vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Armarouge: 306-362 (98.3 - 116.3%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Tera Water Beartic Liquidation vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Ceruledge: 368-434 (103.9 - 122.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Tera Water Beartic Liquidation vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Cinderace: 390-458 (129.5 - 152.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Tera Water Beartic Liquidation vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Clodsire: 458-540 (98.9 - 116.6%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Tera Water Beartic Liquidation vs. 252 HP / 156+ Def Garganacl: 198-234 (49 - 57.9%) -- 49.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Tera Water Beartic Liquidation vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Glimmora: 332-392 (108.1 - 127.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Tera Water Beartic Liquidation vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Great Tusk: 242-288 (65.2 - 77.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Tera Water Beartic Liquidation vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Great Tusk: 182-216 (41.9 - 49.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Tera Water Beartic Liquidation vs. 0 HP / 124 Def Iron Moth: 386-456 (128.2 - 151.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Tera Water Beartic Liquidation vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Iron Treads: 260-308 (80.9 - 95.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Tera Water Beartic Liquidation vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Skeledirge: 306-362 (74.4 - 88%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Tera Water Beartic Liquidation vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Ting-Lu: 254-300 (49.4 - 58.3%) -- 66.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Tera Water Beartic Liquidation vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Volcarona: 434-512 (139.5 - 164.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Tera Water Beartic Liquidation vs. 248 HP / 108 Def Volcarona: 372-440 (99.7 - 117.9%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO

Liquidation Damage Calculations (Tera Water + Rain)

(Super Effective)

252+ Atk Tera Water Beartic Liquidation vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Armarouge in Rain: 458-542 (147.2 - 174.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Tera Water Beartic Liquidation vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Ceruledge in Rain: 552-650 (155.9 - 183.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Tera Water Beartic Liquidation vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Cinderace in Rain: 582-686 (193.3 - 227.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Tera Water Beartic Liquidation vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Clodsire in Rain: 686-810 (148.1 - 174.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Tera Water Beartic Liquidation vs. 252 HP / 156+ Def Garganacl in Rain: 296-350 (73.2 - 86.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Tera Water Beartic Liquidation vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Glimmora in Rain: 498-588 (162.2 - 191.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Tera Water Beartic Liquidation vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Great Tusk in Rain: 366-432 (98.6 - 116.4%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Tera Water Beartic Liquidation vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Great Tusk in Rain: 272-324 (62.6 - 74.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Tera Water Beartic Liquidation vs. 0 HP / 124 Def Iron Moth in Rain: 578-684 (192 - 227.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Tera Water Beartic Liquidation vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Iron Treads in Rain: 390-462 (121.4 - 143.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Tera Water Beartic Liquidation vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Skeledirge in Rain: 458-542 (111.4 - 131.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Tera Water Beartic Liquidation vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Ting-Lu in Rain: 380-450 (73.9 - 87.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Tera Water Beartic Liquidation vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Volcarona in Rain: 650-768 (209 - 246.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Tera Water Beartic Liquidation vs. 248 HP / 108 Def Volcarona in Rain: 560-660 (150.1 - 176.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

(Neutral Hits)

252+ Atk Tera Water Beartic Liquidation vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Corviknight in Rain: 160-189 (40.1 - 47.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Tera Water Beartic Liquidation vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gholdengo in Rain: 240-283 (76.1 - 89.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Tera Water Beartic Liquidation vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gholdengo in Rain: 171-202 (45.2 - 53.4%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Tera Water Beartic Liquidation vs. 252 HP / 204+ Def Hatterene in Rain: 178-211 (55.9 - 66.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Tera Water Beartic Liquidation vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Iron Valiant in Rain: 252-297 (86.8 - 102.4%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Tera Water Beartic Liquidation vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zoroark-Hisui in Rain: 348-409 (138.6 - 162.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
​

With or without Rain, Tera-Water Liquidation tears through a huge portion of the tier, however, within the rain it's an entirely different monster. It's not just this overwhelming pressure under the rain that makes Liquidation so threatening, it's the chance that, at any moment with a 20% Defense drop chance, a solid check or counter to Beartic becomes faint fodder. Ice / Water is a brilliant offensive STAB combination, and thanks to Beartic turning pure Water-type with Tera, it can use both without the pitfalls that come with that typing (sorry Lapras). As if this wasn't enough, Beartic has access to one of the most potent coverage moves in the game - Close Combat. Baxcalibur only has access to Brick Break and Body Press for Fighting-type coverage, meaning that it will most often be relegated to using an alternative coverage move such as Earthquake. While Earthquake is powerful, it lacks several key advantages of Close Combat for a physical Ice-type attacker specifically - let's take a look at Close Combat calculations so we understand why.

Close Combat Damage Calculations

252+ Atk Beartic Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Baxcalibur: 306-362 (82.4 - 97.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Beartic Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Cyclizar: 406-478 (118 - 138.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Beartic Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 156+ Def Garganacl: 184-218 (45.5 - 53.9%) -- 2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Beartic Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Greninja: 398-470 (139.6 - 164.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Beartic Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hydreigon: 314-370 (96.6 - 113.8%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Beartic Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Iron Treads: 246-290 (76.6 - 90.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Beartic Close Combat vs. 236 HP / 0 Def Kingambit: 492-580 (123 - 145%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Beartic Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Meowscarada: 384-454 (131 - 154.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Beartic Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 4+ Def Orthworm: 190-224 (55.2 - 65.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Beartic Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Roaring Moon: 382-450 (108.8 - 128.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Beartic Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Ting-Lu: 238-280 (46.3 - 54.4%) -- 6.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Close Combat not only allows for Beartic to hit Dark, Ice, Steel, Rock, and Normal Types super effectively but bypasses the most annoying aspect of Earthquake - Flying-type + Levitate immunity, in addition to bypassing Earthquake's Grass-type resistance. Close Combat's base power of 120 is higher than Earthquake's 100 base power as well, providing more firepower for a coverage move.

Defensive Capabilities
​

So now you're thinking, alright, it can hit like a truck with or without rain, but what about taking hits? You've probably heard some serious woes about Beartic's defensive profile, however, an important fact to keep in mind is that Beartic's defenses are a respectable 95/80/80. Additionally, with Assault Vest, Beartic can live some surprisingly strong special hits, including super effective ones - let's take a look at defensive calculations for both Ice-type Beartic and Terastallized Water-type Beartic. The Tera-Water calculations will focus more on moves that Beartic would not have enjoyed taking while an Ice-type and will not have duplicates of neutral damage calculations.

Defensive Ice Calculations

0 SpA Amoonguss Sludge Bomb vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Beartic: 67-81 (20.2 - 24.4%) -- 100% chance to 4HKO
252+ SpA Armarouge Expanding Force vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Beartic: 112-133 (33.8 - 40.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Beartic: 211-250 (63.7 - 75.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Beartic: 196-232 (59.2 - 70%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Gholdengo Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Beartic: 108-127 (32.6 - 38.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252 SpA Glimmora Power Gem vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Beartic: 210-248 (63.4 - 74.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Glimmora Sludge Wave vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Beartic: 126-148 (38 - 44.7%) -- 59% chance to 2HKO

252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Beartic: 184-217 (55.5 - 65.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Protean Greninja Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Beartic: 201-237 (60.7 - 71.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

0 SpA Hatterene Mystical Fire vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Beartic: 112-134 (33.8 - 40.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Hydreigon Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Beartic: 102-121 (30.8 - 36.5%) -- 64.7% chance to 3HKO

132 SpA Iron Moth Fiery Dance vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Beartic: 204-242 (61.6 - 73.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Iron Moth Sludge Wave vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Beartic: 132-156 (39.8 - 47.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252 SpA Iron Valiant Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Beartic: 118-139 (35.6 - 41.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0 SpA Rotom-Wash Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Beartic: 100-118 (30.2 - 35.6%) -- 32.5% chance to 3HKO

8 SpA Skeledirge Torch Song vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Beartic: 152-180 (45.9 - 54.3%) -- 47.3% chance to 2HKO
0 SpA Slowking Future Sight vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Beartic: 103-123 (31.1 - 37.1%) -- 77.8% chance to 3HKO
8 SpA Torkoal Lava Plume vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Beartic in Sun: 186-218 (56.1 - 65.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Volcarona Bug Buzz vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Beartic: 121-144 (36.5 - 43.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Volcarona Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Beartic: 242-288 (73.1 - 87%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

244 SpA Choice Specs Walking Wake Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Beartic: 246-291 (74.3 - 87.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
244 SpA Choice Specs Walking Wake Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Beartic: 228-270 (68.8 - 81.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
244 SpA Choice Specs Walking Wake Hydro Steam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Beartic: 153-180 (46.2 - 54.3%) -- 53.1% chance to 2HKO

252 SpA Choice Specs Zoroark-Hisui Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Tera Water Beartic: 153-181 (46.2 - 54.6%) -- 61.3% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Zoroark-Hisui Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Beartic: 230-272 (69.4 - 82.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Defensive Water Calculations

252+ SpA Armarouge Armor Cannon vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Tera Water Beartic: 84-99 (25.3 - 29.9%) -- 54% chance to 3HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Tera Water Beartic: 49-58 (14.8 - 17.5%) -- possible 5HKO

252 SpA Gholdengo Make It Rain vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Tera Water Beartic: 80-94 (24.1 - 28.3%) -- 7.1% chance to 3HKO
252 SpA Gholdengo Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Tera Water Beartic: 107-126 (32.3 - 38%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252 SpA Glimmora Power Gem vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Tera Water Beartic: 105-124 (31.7 - 37.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Tera Water Beartic: 92-108 (27.7 - 32.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0 SpA Hatterene Mystical Fire vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Tera Water Beartic: 28-33 (8.4 - 9.9%) -- possibly the worst move ever

132 SpA Iron Moth Fiery Dance vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Tera Water Beartic: 51-60 (15.4 - 18.1%) -- possible 6HKO
132 SpA Iron Moth Energy Ball vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Tera Water Beartic: 154-182 (46.5 - 54.9%) -- 62.1% chance to 2HKO

0 SpA Rotom-Wash Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Tera Water Beartic: 50-59 (15.1 - 17.8%) -- possible 6HKO

8 SpA Skeledirge Torch Song vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Tera Water Beartic: 38-45 (11.4 - 13.5%) -- possible 8HKO
+2 8 SpA Skeledirge Torch Song vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Tera Water Beartic: 75-89 (22.6 - 26.8%) -- 35.2% chance to 4HKO

8 SpA Torkoal Lava Plume vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Tera Water Beartic in Sun: 46-54 (13.8 - 16.3%) -- possible 7HKO
252 SpA Volcarona Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Tera Water Beartic: 60-72 (18.1 - 21.7%) -- possible 5HKO

244 SpA Choice Specs Walking Wake Hydro Steam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Tera Water Beartic: 76-90 (22.9 - 27.1%) -- 49.9% chance to 4HKO
244 SpA Choice Specs Walking Wake Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Tera Water Beartic: 57-67 (17.2 - 20.2%) -- possible 5HKO

252 SpA Choice Specs Zoroark-Hisui Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Tera Water Beartic: 57-68 (17.2 - 20.5%) -- possible 5HKO
​

Beartic can not only live some powerful neutral and resisted hits but even some monstrous super effective ones, thanks to the power of Assault Vest. While I haven't listed every possible defensive calculation here, this should substantiate that, regardless of the type Beartic currently is, you should have plenty of opportunities to switch in thanks to a cushy base 95 HP stat, meaning that Beartic will have 331 HP with no investment combined with the stellar Special Defense boost from Assault Vest.

Potential Partners

Pelipper

Pelipper goes without saying - sets rain, and is physically tanky with access to Roost for recovery + STAB Hydro Pump and STAB 100% accurate Hurricane. Rain will activate Swift Swim, and it's also nice that Beartic's pre-tera Ice typing pairs well with Pelipper's Water/Flying typing (Great Tusk, anyone?)

Hatterene

Physically bulky and packed with useful utility moves + the ability Magic Bounce to reflect hazards and status, Hatterene is a fantastic switch-in for many Pokemon that could potentially give Beartic trouble. Is something Scarf'd annoying you? Give em' the old nuzzleduzzle or chip their threats with Mystical Fire or Dazzling Gleam.

Zoroark-Hisui

Zoroark being part Ghost-type and having the Illusion ability means that it can lure powerful Fighting-type attacks from Pokemon such as Great Tusk or Iron Valiant and take them out of commission with powerful STAB attacks, as Zoroark takes approximately 0% damage from any Fighting-type moves (make sure that Beartic is placed last in your part if you're planning to do this strategy). H-Zoroark is my favorite Pokemon to pair with Beartic.

Conclusion

Beartic isn't a miracle worker, it needs team support to properly operate - however, if you can get it going, Beartic's unique qualities will slam huge holes into your opponent's team cores. Ice/Water STAB with Fighting coverage as an offensive combination is unfamiliar territory for many OU teams to handle reliably when compressed into a single slot, and that is where Beartic's scariest moments come shining through.​

 

[1LDK]

When the OU forum it's filled with semantic discussion
when the same problematic mons have been discussed to death
when the thread needs something new

Only 1 man
can bring the peace and unity to this land, once and for all

the hero, the apostle, the Samaritan, the one-man army, the goat, the king of kings
big
money
Morkal

 

[MilkyWay]

"It's A Rock"

​

GarganaclView attachment 512567 is a disease in this current metagame with little to no cure. Salt Cure deals 1/8 max HP each turn; 1/4 on Steel, Water. This move has allowed Garganacl to effectively make an item that would have no usage without its presence actually have usage. That item would be Covert Cloak. Covert Cloak allows your Pokemon to ignore secondary damage Salt Cure deals. Covert Cloak isn't really practical as a measure towards Garganacl in the current metagame. Earlier in the SV metagame when Garganacls would generally only be Stealth Rock Protect Wall or Iron Defense Sweeper, it was okay for Covert Cloak Gholdengo or Toxapex to be viewed as a countermeasure as they had reliable recovery along with the ability to beat Gargancl 1v1. This was enough to keep it at bay for majority of SV OU, with it having some guest appearances on surveys & on the radar. It got multiple 3's not enough to support a suspect. Reasonably so, this tier has had larger issues, and considering Garganacls mediocre usage along with mediocre win rate in tour play, it would be hard to justify focusing on it. With monsters such as Palafin, Chien Pao, and Espahtra plaguing the tier it's tough for a rock to stand out.


Shed Tail no longer being in the metagame and its ban has been the catalyst that has led to a rock being a plague on the tier. It isn't solely Shed Tail's ban though that has led us to the point we're at now. The metagame has evolved where Rocky Helmet Corviknight is needed over Cloak, Assault Vest Toxapex is needed over Cloak, Choice Scarf/Air Balloon Gholdengo is needed over Cloak. The Pokemon listed are able to help your team with multiple threats with the items listed, whereas Covert Cloak primarily only helps with Gargancl. With Shed Tail removed the metagame has slowed down from its fast-paced overwhelming nature, overwhelming Gargancl is arguably the best way to take it down, the longer the game lasts the more opportunities it has to salt cure its way to victory.

Gargancl currently has 2 extremely viable Terastallization types, Water View attachment 512606 and Fairy View attachment 512607. These 2 different types make it generally quite difficult to prep for both forms with Amoongus being the only OU Pokemon that can handle both 1v1 and even then at times it needs Covet Cloak to handle properly instead of running a more conventional item such as Heavy Duty Boots or Red Card. Now, you're able to pressure Gargancl with strong moves, force it to waste its recovers, attempt to hazard stack so you wear it down over time, and knock off its leftovers to put it on its heels...all these things are easier said than done and it may already be too late in the match by the time you accomplish. This also doesn't account for the fact offensive teams generally can't afford to take its wearing down throughout the game and still be able to handle its teammates. I feel a lot of people view Gargancl as a singularity entity and don't take into consideration what it's able to accomplish that results in the point we play this game in the first place, a W.

Water Gargancl is able to take advantage of the lack of strong electric and grass types and even if the limited options choose to switch in they have to deal with the reality that each time they switch in they could lose a big chunk of their health along with generally just forcing it to switch out as competent players are switching out from getting hit with a super effective. There is also the reality that currently most of the "viable" grass and electric types in the metagame don't have a good place in the metagame. You could make the case that shows a larger problem with the current landscape but this conversation is about a rock. Water Garg is able to run Physically Defensive and Specially Defensive based sets that are able to curse up on a majority of the metagame. The combination of Salt Cure + Earthquake leaves very few ways to handle this Pokemon. Popular counterplay to this combination is safely getting in Hydregion to sub up on it and abuse Garganacls position in the game due to Hydregions levitate making it immune to Earthquake and natural bulk allowing it to sub up on Salt Cure safely. There is also locking it into recover/salt cure with an encore from Pokemon like Scream Tail, Iron Valiant, & if you're desperate Azumarill. As I mentioned hazard stacking against Gargcancl teams (pray they don't have court change) is a popular counterplay method with the help of Ting Lu Whirlwinding although it has to get worn down by Salt Cure each time it attempts this while also handling what other threats Garganacls teammates may be.

Fairy Gargancl is another fantastic typing that takes advantage of the lack of fairy typing in the tier. A lot of teams are equipped to simply take down fairy types that lack reliable recovery not a rock with 100 HP, 130 Defense, and 90 Special Defense. It is able to take advantage of the amazing typing fairy that gives you, immunity to strong dragon types and of course resisting the power dark typing that has plagued SV from the very start. Fairy Garg is generally more so a defensive wall than the sweeper Water can become but it still can be as overwhelming. Fairy Garg is able to handle crazy threats such as Dragapult, Baxcalibur, Roaring Moon, Great Tusk, & more. It is able completely shut down current offensive archetypes once your opponent's generally easily worn down countermeasure has been removed from the game. It is able to set rocks along with cursing on removers such as great tusk making it impossible for it to remove the hazards set and ultimately if staying in losing the 1v1 battle. Countermeasures for this set are generally the same as mentioned above for Water but due to its Fairy typing in this case Gholdengo and Kingambit can also handle the job. Now for Gholdengo if it runs covet cloak it is a fantastic countermeasure for this set, if it lacks it, things get tricky. Kingambit doesn't run covet cloak generally (and if it does kinda shows the problem) as it's usually in the sweeper role or check role so you'll see it running items such as leftovers, lum, air balloon, etc all of which essentially don't prevent it from losing 25% of its health just to handle a rock.

A Rock Replay Montage

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1854298830-aq7euhm9901l2hcky49znrt9yigtnoipw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1853992231-e8bjto0gr8qk0fy5t81k7lacl0c8jajpw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1853975842-c084zkkgmkm4sibwql6zwxwyo4sqxlupw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1853906863-845r6c9oq0jv2egdbeyjf99v0tbdqjtpw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1853115042-kuzvtjfcjtg79pij9ruxdqguel58vsopw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1854272470-zotkowpsg4nn0vx1jnk3epypk0tlxhupw

Garganacl View attachment 512567is also arguably keeping this tier together. It is able to handle most notably Dragapult which arguably would be on radar/surveys if it weren't for Garganacl's presence in the tier. It has been a notable Pokemon in keeping the weather Sun in check and to a lesser extent Rain. It is able to handle Sun threats such as Walking Wake's powerful Hydro Steams with Water View attachment 512606 and Fairy View attachment 512607 is able to handle Great Tusk, Brute Bonnet, and Roaring Moon while also being able to pivot into Walking Wake's powerful Dracos.

Garganacl is able to break down powerful balances like the Shark 6 while also shutting down popular stalls with its block set preventing their counterplay to it being Pivoting around. Garganacl is able to be a consistent wall in this metagame and be productive in a majority of match ups where you rarely feel you're playing from behind Teraing early with it. Garganacl is able to generally handle the unaware monsters of Dondozo and Skelidirge with Salt Cure wearing down their recovery or at worse forcing a tera from them. Garganacl not being able to be statused makes it a nice switch into Willo's and Toxic's, along with it having such phenomenal bulk that even if your opponent predicts your switch in to avoid the status by attacking you can easily recover back the health loss.

Garganacl Water is generally able to handle OU threats such as:

Threats Handled

Gholdengo
Ceruledge
Cinderace
Dondozo
Gholdengo
Greninja
Iron Moth
Walking Wake
Skelidirge

Garganacl Fairy is generally able to handle OU threats such as:

Threats Handled

Baxcalibur
Dondozo
Dragapult
Dragonite
Garchomp
Water Gargancal
Great Tusk
Meowscarda
Roaring Moon

With each ban and with home on the horizon the OU Metagame is headed in the right direction in my opinion. I simply believe there are misconceptions about how "easy" it is to handle Garganacl and that an irrelevant item in the grand scheme of things doesn't solve this Pokemon. I'm sure players will figure out how to adapt to the current problem that Garganacl presents and we shall see what the solution is. The goal of this post isn't to advocate for a Garganacl suspect, I've listed simply what stands out to me with its presence in the metagame and how the meta could start to revolve around a rock.

I agree garg has certainly gotten a lot better since the shed tail ban. Outside of cloak, the only real counter play is sub and strong special attackers. Personally I've been using choice specs tera fairy valiant recently and with amoongus, gambit, and tusk I've been pivoting around it well enough without the need to dedicate an item slot for cloak.

Regardless, garg is super good rn and goes right thru teams that are unprepared for it. Here's a replay from a little while ago that demonstrates pretty well just how effective and dumb garg can be when the opponent isn't explicity prepared for it

 

[Xufactor]

Exactly what it says.

It says nothing that isn't ambiguous.

 

[Xufactor]

We are going to get more Last Respects mons in Home.

 

[tommytt22]

It says nothing that isn't ambiguous.

Do the smeargle test.
Is shed tail broken on smeargle?
yes
Is wicked blow broken on smeargle?
no
Is last respects broken on smeagle?
252+ Atk Smeargle Last Respects vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gholdengo: 290-342 (92 - 108.5%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Fucken yikes okay yes, even off base 20 attack and no item youre still doing big damage to relevant pokemon

 

[Xufactor]

Do the smeargle test.
Is shed tail broken on smeargle?
yes
Is wicked blow broken on smeargle?
no
Is last respects broken on smeagle?
252+ Atk Smeargle Last Respects vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gholdengo: 290-342 (92 - 108.5%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Fucken yikes okay yes, even off base 20 attack and no item youre still doing big damage to relevant pokemon

Smeargle is in Natdex. So a move's brokenness depends on the attibutes of a specific Pokemon that isn't common?

What criteria would you use that separates wicked blow from the other 2?

Last Respects Smeargle is strong, but not broken?

 

[ryangregory78]

Hawlucha @ Psychic Seed
Ability: Unburden
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 252 Atk / 136 Def / 120 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Close Combat
- Acrobatics
- Tera Blast

Ok this mon actually destroys the entire tier. Nothing short of Dondozo can even try to stop this thing.

It's no secret that Fighting/Flying is a cheat code of an offensive combination (it's what made Hawlucha so good in past gens), but right now it's absolutely insane. The meta as is really doesn't have that many tools to handle strong Flying moves, and the few things that can stave them off (Washtom, Garg to name a few) get thrashed by +2 Close Combat. Tera Fire is incredible on Lucha, letting you block burn, shrug off Moonblasts and Ice Shards, and giving you the necessary coverage to scorch Ghold and Corv. Lucha even gets incredibly easy setup against the best mon in the game, so he's able to get the ball rolling incredibly often and just decimate everything.

Raving aside, Lucha does only really fit on Psyspam teams, and even them he's competing for a team slot with other insane shit like Bax, Volc, and Cloyster in addition to the obligatory Indeede-Arma-Polt-Hatt core. So while he's absolutely not the easiest mon to slap on a team, holy shit can he rip shit apart.

 

[tommytt22]

"It's A Rock"

​

GarganaclView attachment 512567 is a disease in this current metagame with little to no cure. Salt Cure deals 1/8 max HP each turn; 1/4 on Steel, Water. This move has allowed Garganacl to effectively make an item that would have no usage without its presence actually have usage. That item would be Covert Cloak. Covert Cloak allows your Pokemon to ignore secondary damage Salt Cure deals. Covert Cloak isn't really practical as a measure towards Garganacl in the current metagame. Earlier in the SV metagame when Garganacls would generally only be Stealth Rock Protect Wall or Iron Defense Sweeper, it was okay for Covert Cloak Gholdengo or Toxapex to be viewed as a countermeasure as they had reliable recovery along with the ability to beat Gargancl 1v1. This was enough to keep it at bay for majority of SV OU, with it having some guest appearances on surveys & on the radar. It got multiple 3's not enough to support a suspect. Reasonably so, this tier has had larger issues, and considering Garganacls mediocre usage along with mediocre win rate in tour play, it would be hard to justify focusing on it. With monsters such as Palafin, Chien Pao, and Espahtra plaguing the tier it's tough for a rock to stand out.


Shed Tail no longer being in the metagame and its ban has been the catalyst that has led to a rock being a plague on the tier. It isn't solely Shed Tail's ban though that has led us to the point we're at now. The metagame has evolved where Rocky Helmet Corviknight is needed over Cloak, Assault Vest Toxapex is needed over Cloak, Choice Scarf/Air Balloon Gholdengo is needed over Cloak. The Pokemon listed are able to help your team with multiple threats with the items listed, whereas Covert Cloak primarily only helps with Gargancl. With Shed Tail removed the metagame has slowed down from its fast-paced overwhelming nature, overwhelming Gargancl is arguably the best way to take it down, the longer the game lasts the more opportunities it has to salt cure its way to victory.

Gargancl currently has 2 extremely viable Terastallization types, Water View attachment 512606 and Fairy View attachment 512607. These 2 different types make it generally quite difficult to prep for both forms with Amoongus being the only OU Pokemon that can handle both 1v1 and even then at times it needs Covet Cloak to handle properly instead of running a more conventional item such as Heavy Duty Boots or Red Card. Now, you're able to pressure Gargancl with strong moves, force it to waste its recovers, attempt to hazard stack so you wear it down over time, and knock off its leftovers to put it on its heels...all these things are easier said than done and it may already be too late in the match by the time you accomplish. This also doesn't account for the fact offensive teams generally can't afford to take its wearing down throughout the game and still be able to handle its teammates. I feel a lot of people view Gargancl as a singularity entity and don't take into consideration what it's able to accomplish that results in the point we play this game in the first place, a W.

Water Gargancl is able to take advantage of the lack of strong electric and grass types and even if the limited options choose to switch in they have to deal with the reality that each time they switch in they could lose a big chunk of their health along with generally just forcing it to switch out as competent players are switching out from getting hit with a super effective. There is also the reality that currently most of the "viable" grass and electric types in the metagame don't have a good place in the metagame. You could make the case that shows a larger problem with the current landscape but this conversation is about a rock. Water Garg is able to run Physically Defensive and Specially Defensive based sets that are able to curse up on a majority of the metagame. The combination of Salt Cure + Earthquake leaves very few ways to handle this Pokemon. Popular counterplay to this combination is safely getting in Hydregion to sub up on it and abuse Garganacls position in the game due to Hydregions levitate making it immune to Earthquake and natural bulk allowing it to sub up on Salt Cure safely. There is also locking it into recover/salt cure with an encore from Pokemon like Scream Tail, Iron Valiant, & if you're desperate Azumarill. As I mentioned hazard stacking against Gargcancl teams (pray they don't have court change) is a popular counterplay method with the help of Ting Lu Whirlwinding although it has to get worn down by Salt Cure each time it attempts this while also handling what other threats Garganacls teammates may be.

Fairy Gargancl is another fantastic typing that takes advantage of the lack of fairy typing in the tier. A lot of teams are equipped to simply take down fairy types that lack reliable recovery not a rock with 100 HP, 130 Defense, and 90 Special Defense. It is able to take advantage of the amazing typing fairy that gives you, immunity to strong dragon types and of course resisting the power dark typing that has plagued SV from the very start. Fairy Garg is generally more so a defensive wall than the sweeper Water can become but it still can be as overwhelming. Fairy Garg is able to handle crazy threats such as Dragapult, Baxcalibur, Roaring Moon, Great Tusk, & more. It is able completely shut down current offensive archetypes once your opponent's generally easily worn down countermeasure has been removed from the game. It is able to set rocks along with cursing on removers such as great tusk making it impossible for it to remove the hazards set and ultimately if staying in losing the 1v1 battle. Countermeasures for this set are generally the same as mentioned above for Water but due to its Fairy typing in this case Gholdengo and Kingambit can also handle the job. Now for Gholdengo if it runs covet cloak it is a fantastic countermeasure for this set, if it lacks it, things get tricky. Kingambit doesn't run covet cloak generally (and if it does kinda shows the problem) as it's usually in the sweeper role or check role so you'll see it running items such as leftovers, lum, air balloon, etc all of which essentially don't prevent it from losing 25% of its health just to handle a rock.

A Rock Replay Montage

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1854298830-aq7euhm9901l2hcky49znrt9yigtnoipw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1853992231-e8bjto0gr8qk0fy5t81k7lacl0c8jajpw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1853975842-c084zkkgmkm4sibwql6zwxwyo4sqxlupw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1853906863-845r6c9oq0jv2egdbeyjf99v0tbdqjtpw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1853115042-kuzvtjfcjtg79pij9ruxdqguel58vsopw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1854272470-zotkowpsg4nn0vx1jnk3epypk0tlxhupw

Garganacl View attachment 512567is also arguably keeping this tier together. It is able to handle most notably Dragapult which arguably would be on radar/surveys if it weren't for Garganacl's presence in the tier. It has been a notable Pokemon in keeping the weather Sun in check and to a lesser extent Rain. It is able to handle Sun threats such as Walking Wake's powerful Hydro Steams with Water View attachment 512606 and Fairy View attachment 512607 is able to handle Great Tusk, Brute Bonnet, and Roaring Moon while also being able to pivot into Walking Wake's powerful Dracos.

Garganacl is able to break down powerful balances like the Shark 6 while also shutting down popular stalls with its block set preventing their counterplay to it being Pivoting around. Garganacl is able to be a consistent wall in this metagame and be productive in a majority of match ups where you rarely feel you're playing from behind Teraing early with it. Garganacl is able to generally handle the unaware monsters of Dondozo and Skelidirge with Salt Cure wearing down their recovery or at worse forcing a tera from them. Garganacl not being able to be statused makes it a nice switch into Willo's and Toxic's, along with it having such phenomenal bulk that even if your opponent predicts your switch in to avoid the status by attacking you can easily recover back the health loss.

Garganacl Water is generally able to handle OU threats such as:

Threats Handled

Gholdengo
Ceruledge
Cinderace
Dondozo
Gholdengo
Greninja
Iron Moth
Walking Wake
Skelidirge

Garganacl Fairy is generally able to handle OU threats such as:

Threats Handled

Baxcalibur
Dondozo
Dragapult
Dragonite
Garchomp
Water Gargancal
Great Tusk
Meowscarda
Roaring Moon

With each ban and with home on the horizon the OU Metagame is headed in the right direction in my opinion. I simply believe there are misconceptions about how "easy" it is to handle Garganacl and that an irrelevant item in the grand scheme of things doesn't solve this Pokemon. I'm sure players will figure out how to adapt to the current problem that Garganacl presents and we shall see what the solution is. The goal of this post isn't to advocate for a Garganacl suspect, I've listed simply what stands out to me with its presence in the metagame and how the meta could start to revolve around a rock.

Its good. Actually its great. I'm not sure i could support a garganacl ban though, heres why:

Almost even single discussion worthy mon at the moment is spoken about like "with tera x it now handles these threats and sweeps etc."
I like tera, its goofy, and its fun but i dont think its balanced. For example Meowscarada beats garg if it doesnt tera fairy. Even garg at +2 cant KO back with body press and gets maimed by flower trick. Gholdengo, great tusk, greninja, walking wake, amoongus, hatterene, kingambit. All relevant pokemon that can beat it with tera out of the picture. Most of them lose in a 1v1 if garg can tera though, EVEN if they can tera themselves, its why i think tera is unbalanced its not an equal buff to everyone like dynamax (shit mechanic though) or z moves, some pokemon are just SO GOOD with it even if they were perfectly balanced without it.

The inherently broken pokemon were easy to see, palafin, flutter mane, iron bundle etc. because their issues were just great stats and movepool. for the rest of the tier we're just going around in circles, unsure what is broken and what isnt. 2 weeks ago i was CONVINCED Kingambit was broken but now im back on the fence, theres a new set to try counter it popping up daily, and now THOSE sets seem like the issue (dragapult running bulky-sub-wisp for example, the pokemon who can take that on defensively struggle to break its sub).

The fact is the metagame is extremely unstable. Theres so many options and while i thought home was the answer, its going to be complete chaos when that drops and theres twice the amount of pokemon with access to tera, new moves etc. Its already impossible to predict what theyll tera into since the best abusers often have several go-to types. For example: gambit (fire, flying, dark), garg (water, fairy), baxcalibur (ground, dragon, steel). If you cant guess correctly then 1 free turn is enough to lose the game. Theres no reasonable way to prepare for every option at once.

Personally I'd like to have a trial on ladder without tera, just for 2 weeks to see what its like. We havent played gen 9 without it so no one can really say if itd be better or worse, at the very least I'd like to try it though.

 

[Return to Zero]

Smeargle is in Natdex. So a move's brokenness depends on the attibutes of a specific Pokemon that isn't common?

What criteria would you use that separates wicked blow from the other 2?

Last Respects Smeargle is strong, but not broken?

I'm kind of in awe that you've managed to keep this ridiculous bad faith argument going for days now. It takes dedication to clog up pages worth of a thread on asking the same questions that have been answered very clearly and thoughtfully by multiple people. This is going to my only contribution to your discussion where I summarize a lot of the arguments against your point, and afterwards I am going to drop it and move on without addressing it again, because there's genuinely just nothing else I could say about this other than pointing you to this post again.

Urshifu was not banned because of Wicked Blow. Wicked Blow is just an effective 120 BP move that ignores Defense rises. It's a great move that's a big plus to have, but Urshifu was also banned because of its very high Attack, just barely high enough to be annoying Speed, priority, long list of great matchups, and an ability that disallows scouting it with Protect. We have a precedent for how this sort of situation is handled with Dracovish and Arctovish in literally the same generation. Fishious Rend is too strong for OU on the former, but the latter isn't even good enough to be in PU. Therefore, the problem was not Fishious Rend, but Dracovish. If Wicked Blow was on another mon that was about as bad compared to Urshifu as Arctovish is to Dracovish like, I dunno, Morpeko, (And I must take this time to stress that Wicked Blow is not on any other mon and therefore your entire argument is nonsense, pointless, derailing theorymonning) it would be obvious to pretty much anyone that it's Urshifu that's too strong, not Wicked Blow, because having a strong attacking move is not enough to instantly catapult Pokemon up three tiers except Last Respects maybe but that's a post Home discussion and there has never been a move as powerful and brainless as Last Respects so work with me here.

Status moves are an entirely different beast because in general, all you need is 1-2 turns to use them, because they have an effect other than comparing an attacking stat against a defending stat and work exactly as well when used by something otherwise terrible but possessing enough Speed or HP to do the thing and then switch to someone else. That's why people still use Masquerain in OU sometimes, because Sticky Web doesn't require it to have good stats to be useful, and in fact it is exactly as effective whether its stats are any higher or lower. Cyclizar and Orthworm, the only two Shed Tail users, both have use cases for their moves to mostly guarantee their success, with Cyclizar using its high Speed and Regenerator and Orthworm using its high Defense and Ground immunity. They don't need any good stats other than the ones that let them click the button safely. And once they do, the reward for doing so is the exact same as if any other OU star like Dondozo had done it. Shed Tail was banned because it was initially thought that maybe the move was fine but Cyclizar was just too good a user of it, but then we later found out that Orthworm was exactly as obnoxious but in a different way. If Urshifu and Morpeko both had Wicked Blow in SS, I would be money on Urshifu being banned and not Wicked Blow, because using Wicked Blow requires not only the HP or Speed to be able to click the button, but also the stats to make the move actually do damage, a backing movepool of coverage or boosts, and viable matchups against relatively as strong opponents where that move can accomplish something.

I really, really hope this illustrates the point to you. Broken status moves are a lot easier to be widely broken, whereas distinguishing between what's a broken attacking move and what's just a move this broken attacking mon uses well is difficult and probably pointless. Not to mention that it creates a ton of fiddly unclear questions, like where is the line drawn for signature/limited distribution moves, should Ubers mons be banned straightaway or do we have to run a trial period where they don't have their best move, so on. Please, just stop it here man. All I'm doing is summarizing the points of everyone else here.

And again, no one else has Wicked Blow, so there's just no reason to discuss banning the move and not Urshifu.

 

[Link loyan]

I just want to say: Every time a pokemon is put on the the table for being overwhelming, what is the biggest point they say? Yeah exactly, its tera... Something i actually wonder is why noone uses something like tera steel dnite for example since it resists everything it was wak to and is only weak to moves it resisted or was immune to but thats just theorymonning by me.
whats not theorymonning though is the amount of 50/50s terra forces (mostly not even 50/50s but something like 33/33/33 or even worse) and god damn is that awful for at least me to playI want to play a game in which foresight and skill in tb and game is rewarded and if every turn turns out to be a "well if he does this then I'm in big trouble" because of tera then I just really dont like this game we play since it feels a bit like rock/paper/scissors: many people act similar but if someone actually does something else you can basically just give up and i dont want to play this random number generator
Yes both people have it and yes i somewhat exaggerated but if you play offense it feels that way and if you play balance/stall you lose if the opponent has the correct sweeper/breaker with the correct tera


Also i dislike how the hazardgame very strong since if you want to keep them you have to throw your usually frail ghost (or your ghosttera'ed mon) into the great tusk of the opponent, you need to win 50s against hatterene or you win because the opponent doesn't use those (or iron threads) and therefor the hazardgame forces great tusk on most teams (this is my hateletter to gholdengo :/ )


Tl;dr
Tera is making fine mons broken and forces 50s which destroy the fun of the game
Gholdengo makes defoggers bad while being a great mon itself and makes the hazardgame onedimensional if you use the one pokemon or unbearable if you dont use great tusk


Edit: Yeah the hazardrant is just my problem with hazards and few removals in a gen in which many pokemon have many hazards and yeah corv is the biggest defogger but in a timeline with bulky recovery scizor i would enjoy to play with that as well but yeah, i just usually enjoy having a bulky steel flying defogger with momentum and i cant do that in a gholden metagame

The tera-thing though: I havent seen anyone fight the 50/50 argument and anyone saying espathra would be broken without tera: espathra is a regieleki with steel types and dark types if you dont use dazzling gleam or the opponent has a second typing that resists fairy (kingambit would be the single biggest roadblock to it for example), yeah the chien-pao and chi-yu argument is totally fair (even though chien-pao got pushed over the edge to twohitting dozo by tera but it would probably be broken without that as well); iron bundle, flutter mane, palafin and the two moveabusing ghosts are broken without tera as well, yeah but on the other hand many suspects and pokemon on the radar got there because of tera

 

[incorolla]

I disagree that Tera is the most broken thing about these Mons. Especially when you look at the previous bans: Chien Pao, ChiYu, Annihalape, Cyclizar and arguably Espathra were all banned independently of tera. Sure, they became stronger with tera, but the broken factors were different.

I'd say it's similar with current Mon, albeit to a lesser extent. Salt Cure breaks Garg, Multiscale and a bonkers movepool breaks Dragonite. Volcarona is the exception to be fair - I think it would be manageable without Tera - but why ban the mechanic to salvage a Mon that's been close to overpowered for a long time?

For transparency, I don't think either Garg or DNite are broken, just exceptionally good, but I can see the arguments for both.

 

[Exotic64]

Gholdengo makes defoggers bad while being a great mon itself and makes the hazardgame onedimensional if you use the one pokemon or unbearable if you dont use great tusk

only corv gets defog and I wouldn't say that Corviknight is bad imo (unless someone is cooking decidueye defog or something weird from UU and under)
in terms of hazard removal, I wouldn't say its one dimensional at all since most Corviknights aren't the only hazard remover on the tram, normally there's a tusk or a cinderace. considering the mons that set up hazards in OU rn (garchomp, tusk, tinglu, garg, clod etc) hatterene checks all of them whilst preventing hazards from even getting onto the field (with the exception of glimm sludge wave).
whilst gholdengo is great for blocking hazard removal most the time its a big risk to hard switch him into someone like tusk which could click eq instead of spin and get OHKod instead

 

[Return to Zero]

I just want to say: Every time a pokemon is put on the the table for being overwhelming, what is the biggest point they say? Yeah exactly, its tera... Something i actually wonder is why noone uses something like tera steel dnite for example since it resists everything it was wak to and is only weak to moves it resisted or was immune to but thats just theorymonning by me.
whats not theorymonning though is the amount of 50/50s terra forces (mostly not even 50/50s but something like 33/33/33 or even worse) and god damn is that awful for at least me to playI want to play a game in which foresight and skill in tb and game is rewarded and if every turn turns out to be a "well if he does this then I'm in big trouble" because of tera then I just really dont like this game we play since it feels a bit like rock/paper/scissors: many people act similar but if someone actually does something else you can basically just give up and i dont want to play this random number generator
Yes both people have it and yes i somewhat exaggerated but if you play offense it feels that way and if you play balance/stall you lose if the opponent has the correct sweeper/breaker with the correct tera


Also i dislike how the hazardgame very strong since if you want to keep them you have to throw your usually frail ghost (or your ghosttera'ed mon) into the great tusk of the opponent, you need to win 50s against hatterene or you win because the opponent doesn't use those (or iron threads) and therefor the hazardgame forces great tusk on most teams (this is my hateletter to gholdengo :/ )


Tl;dr
Tera is making fine mons broken and forces 50s which destroy the fun of the game
Gholdengo makes defoggers bad while being a great mon itself and makes the hazardgame onedimensional if you use the one pokemon or unbearable if you dont use great tusk

I kinda halfway agree with this? I'll give you that Tera is the biggest reason why Espathra was banned and one of the biggest reasons Chien-Pao was, but a lot of Ubers mons would have ended up there with or without it. Tera helped Annihilape and Chi-Yu, but it also helped their few checks in OU. Really, most of the issues I saw with them in regards to Tera was that it forced specific defensive Tera types to respond to them, not that their own use of Tera was pushing them over the edge. That is just what I've seen though, so make of it what you will.

Also, I don't think hazard removal is as difficult and one-dimensional as you make it sound. Corviknight, Cinderace, and now Cyclizar are pretty great at hazard removal, and while Gholdengo is great at spinblocking, it's also a risk because it's got a good number of ways to check it or bait it into eating a Knock Off.

 

[Hyper-Go-ons]

Swords Dance Fell Stinger Inteleon...

+5 252+ Atk Life Orb Tera Water Inteleon Liquidation vs. 252 HP / 192+ Def Toxapex in Rain: 287-339 (94.4 - 111.5%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO

+5 252+ Atk Life Orb Torrent Tera Water Inteleon Liquidation vs. 252 HP / 192+ Def Toxapex in Rain: 432-508 (142.1 - 167.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Even Toxapex isn't safe.

 

[TCTphantom]

I just want to say: Every time a pokemon is put on the the table for being overwhelming, what is the biggest point they say? Yeah exactly, its tera... Something i actually wonder is why noone uses something like tera steel dnite for example since it resists everything it was wak to and is only weak to moves it resisted or was immune to but thats just theorymonning by me.
whats not theorymonning though is the amount of 50/50s terra forces (mostly not even 50/50s but something like 33/33/33 or even worse) and god damn is that awful for at least me to playI want to play a game in which foresight and skill in tb and game is rewarded and if every turn turns out to be a "well if he does this then I'm in big trouble" because of tera then I just really dont like this game we play since it feels a bit like rock/paper/scissors: many people act similar but if someone actually does something else you can basically just give up and i dont want to play this random number generator
Yes both people have it and yes i somewhat exaggerated but if you play offense it feels that way and if you play balance/stall you lose if the opponent has the correct sweeper/breaker with the correct tera


Also i dislike how the hazardgame very strong since if you want to keep them you have to throw your usually frail ghost (or your ghosttera'ed mon) into the great tusk of the opponent, you need to win 50s against hatterene or you win because the opponent doesn't use those (or iron threads) and therefor the hazardgame forces great tusk on most teams (this is my hateletter to gholdengo :/ )


Tl;dr
Tera is making fine mons broken and forces 50s which destroy the fun of the game
Gholdengo makes defoggers bad while being a great mon itself and makes the hazardgame onedimensional if you use the one pokemon or unbearable if you dont use great tusk

To be honest, I don’t buy it Chief.

This isn’t saying Terra is or is not broken. People have more or less dug in their positions on that. But Terra has not had a substantial impact on the bans we have had.

Most of the bans we have had were not banned specifically because of Terra. Flutter Mane and Iron Bundle outsped and nuked the entire tier. Last Respects Houndstone crushed everything. Chi Yu and Chien Pao were extremely hard to switch into even without Terra. Shed Tail was broken because of how it enabled Hyper Offense to be as strong as it is. Heck, Wake was suspected mainly for its strength in weather, less so it’s Terra Water shenanigans.

Are there some borderline cases? Sure. Maybe Annihilape would not have been broken without defensive Terra Waters. Espathra might have been less of an issue without Terra. At the end of the day though, they are still borderline cases. A large part of what made them unhealthy will still be unhealthy at the end of the day. Rage Fist makes Annihilape murder any team that isn’t HO and Espathra cheeses wins easily. Even for our OU mons, not everything would be completely “fine” that people are discussing as broken with terra in a terra less world. Garg is still a strong defensive backbone and salt cure is amazing. Kingambit is an amazing sweeper. Gholdengo would be amazing at enabling hazards to stick. Volcarona would still be the MU moth.

I’m fine if y’all think Terra is a problem or not, but Terra is far from the straw that broke the camels back in the vast majority of these mons. It doesn’t matter if Dragon Dance Terra Flying Booster Energy Moon was insane behind a shed tail: pretty much every sweeper was, that’s why Shed Tail was banned. Palafin was still banworthy before Terra Steel bulk up came up in usage. Chien Pao and Chi Yu didn’t need their Terra types to punch massive holes into your team. Is the mechanic annoying at points? Sure, but it so far has not caused overwhelming collateral damage in terms of bans.

Could it in the future? Maybe? Once home drops there’s like five things that seem omega busted even without Terra (Basculegion, Landorus I, Urshifu S, Magearna, Spectrier) so we won’t even be able to tell when home drops if Terra would be an issue for at least a month. Some stuff like Regieleki seem scary with Terra, but it will be hard to gage them considering how much of a massive shake up home is gonna be. I’d say a terra team preview vote would be the best solution short term at the beginning of home since it eliminates some of the guessing game features and there is precedent for it with what VGC does with its team sheets. It doesn’t fix *every* issue with Terra, but its a good place to start since it fixes one of the biggest issues.

 

[Eeveeto]

Beartic
View attachment 512584
"Beartic is capable of freezing its own breath and will create pathways across oceans using this technique. Should it get tired while swimming, Beartic will also use its breath to freeze the water it is swimming in so that it can lie down and rest" - Bulbapedia

"The puns in this post are going to be unbearable" - Morkal
​

BEARTIC BASE STATS​	LEVEL 100 STAT RANGE​
HP: 95​	300 - 394​
Attack: 130​	238 - 394​
Defense: 80​	148 - 284​
Sp. Atk: 70​	130 - 262​
Sp. Def: 80​	148 - 284​
Speed: 50​	94 - 218​

Usable Physical Moves

Aqua Jet, Body Press, Body Slam, Brick Break, Close Combat, Crunch, Earthquake, Focus Punch, Heavy Slam, Ice Punch, Icicle Crash, Liquidation, Low Kick, Play Rough, Rock Slide, Shadow Claw, Stone Edge, Superpower, Tera Blast, Trailblaze, X-Scissor

Usable Utility Moves

Bulk Up, Encore, Protect, Rest, Substitute, Swords Dance, Taunt, Yawn

I haven't made a humungous post about a niche mon for quite a while (finals week + work is makin' me feel burnt out), so I decided after some testing it's time to bring a Gen 5 favorite to everyone's attention - Beartic. Now you might be thinking "Oh really, you're going to tell me that with Baxcalibur in OU, Beartic has a place in the tier?" Not only am I going to tell you he has a place in the tier, but I'm also going to tell you about several unique OU niches that no other Pokemon (including Baxcalibur) can replicate thanks to a variety of specialized and powerful traits. So without any more nonsense from my very lacking sense of humor, let's jump into Beartic's qualities!

Disclaimer: Beartic needs specific support (rain, hazard clearing, etc) in order to work - while Beartic is powerful, if you're expecting to just paste him onto a team composition in need of a Physical Ice-type attacker, just run Baxcalibur instead. Beartic is for those who want to handle several specific threats simultaneously that Baxcalibur can't while also being able to fulfill the role of a powerful Physical Ice-type attacker + have additional role compression with weather + movepool options. Please plan your team compositions carefully.

Summarized Advantages of Beartic

This is a small section for those who want to know what Beartic brings to the table without reading the full essay-length post​

• Beartic works as a powerhouse Swift Swim user that not only takes advantage of other people's Rain usage (hi Walking Wake) along with working for your own Rain teams as well.
• Beartic is the only non-Water-type Swift Swim user in the game (with the currently unreleased Overqwil/Qwilfish-Hisui being exceptions, but they're not in the game yet), and additionally loses its Fire-type weakness under rain.
• Beartic's combination of power physical Ice STAB coming off of a base 130 Attack, Tera Water + Rain boosted Liquidation pummels a huge portion of OU and exerts tremendous offensive pressure.
• Fantastic coverage options such as Close Combat, Crunch, Play Rough, Stone Edge, or Earthquake mean that Beartic is going to severely dent just about anything that switches in with proper prediction.
• Beartic's unique offensive traits and coverage further allow Beartic to act as a lure, punishing Pokemon that would be able to handle Baxcalibur such as Bulky Volcarona.
• Access to Trailblaze means that Beartic can reliably boost its own Speed outside of Rain while still being able to use Assault Vest.
• Beartic has useful utility movepool options including Swords Dance, Encore, Taunt, Yawn, Substitute + Focus Punch, and Priority Aqua Jet (also boosted by Tera Water + Rain)
• Beartic's Mono-Ice typing means that it does not share a Dragon-type weakness with Baxcalibur and maintains an important resistance to Ice-type moves rather than having a neutrality to them.

While Beartic has many sets it can run, we're going to be talking about one in particular (and by far my favorite) - Assault Vest Swift Swim Trailblaze Attacker.

Waterbeard
(Before and after the Ice Age)
View attachment 512609
Beartic @ Assault Vest
Ability: Swift Swim
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Icicle Crash
- Liquidation
- Trailblaze
- Close Combat

Trailblaze + Speed Utility

Before we dive into the nitty gritty of this set; I'd like to share with you the mindset that I commonly utilize while playing with Beartic - First step, switch in Beartic on a Pokemon that it can pressure out such as Clodsire or Ting-Lu - then you have three options that will commonly happen -​

1. They're going to switch.​
2. They're going to use Protect to scout.​
3. They're going to stay in and attempt to either set up or sacrifice the Pokemon.​

In all three situations, you're likely going to click Trailblaze first most often before any other move
​

Why? Let's look at what Trailblaze does first - Trailblaze boosts Beartic's speed by +1 while also slightly damaging the Pokemon (although Trailblaze can do unexpectedly big damage if the switch-in doesn't resist or is hit super effectively by Grass moves). With 252 speed EVs and a neutral nature, +1 brings Beartic up to 298 speed (equivalent to a base 86 speed Pokemon with 252 EVs and a speed boosting nature) - meaning that it outspeeds any base 98 speed or lower Pokemon that has a neutral speed nature, even if they have a full 252 EVs in speed and a base 98 needs at least 152 EVs with a speed-boosting nature to outspeed +1 Beartic. Additionally, this means that +1 Beartic outspeeds any fully invested base 85-speed or lower Pokemon even if they have 252 Speed EVs with a boosting nature and ties base 86 Speed Pokemon with a speed-boosting nature and full EV investment (such as Timid Glimmora or Timid Rotom-Wash).

What do all these benchmarks mean? It means that Beartic at +1 will always outspeed the following OU Pokemon (without Choice Scarf) - Amoonguss, Armarouge, Azumarill, Breloom, Ceruledge, Clodsire, Corviknight, Dondozo, Dragonite, Garganacl, Gholdengo, Hatterene, Iron Hands, Kingambit, Orthworm, Skeledirge, Slowking, Ting-Lu, Torkoal, and Toxapex. Additionally, at +1, Beartic will outspeed Baxcalibur, Glimmora, Great Tusk, Hydreigon, and Rotom-Wash if they aren't running a speed-boosting nature. This means that you will naturally outspeed most bulky threats in the tier along with some notably fierce offensive threats as well. This might either cause your opponent to double-switch or could potentially even mean they have to sacrifice a Pokemon if you're in the mid-late game.

So besides the speed utility, what else is so important about Trailblaze? Baxcalibur can use Dragon Dance, so why are we even bothering to talk about Beartic? Trailblaze has two specific advantages over Dragon Dance - first is that it is immune to Taunt, and second is that it's a damaging move, meaning that Beartic can run Assault Vest with it, giving Beartic some vital special bulk (we'll get into that later). There's also a third advantage - Trailblaze chip means that Air Balloon/Focus Sash/Multiscale are all broken upon being hit, which can be critical in handling specific threats. and tense situations. It's also worth noting that with Rain and Swift Swim up, Beartic reaches 398 Speed with no boost and 596 speed at +1, allowing it to, without Trailblaze boosts, outspeed every OU Pokemon without Choice Scarf except for +Speed Dragapult.

View attachment 512609
Offensive Capabilities + Tera Water
​

So now that we understand why Beartic's access to Trailblaze is crucial for this set to work, let's go over some of its offensive capabilities that allow Beartic to justify a slot on teams. First, let's go over its bread and butter STAB - Icicle Crash. Long story short, even though it's less powerful than Baxcalibur's Icicle Crash, that doesn't mean it doesn't hit like a truck.

Icicle Crash Damage Calculations
View attachment 512619

252+ Atk Beartic Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 172+ Def Amoonguss: 302-356 (69.9 - 82.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Beartic Icicle Crash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Breloom: 368-434 (140.9 - 166.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Beartic Icicle Crash vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Clodsire: 458-540 (98.9 - 116.6%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO

252+ Atk Beartic Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Cyclizar: 432-510 (125.5 - 148.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Beartic Icicle Crash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dragapult: 390-458 (123 - 144.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Beartic Icicle Crash vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Multiscale Dragonite: 318-374 (98.4 - 115.7%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Beartic Icicle Crash vs. 144 HP / 0 Def Multiscale Dragonite: 320-378 (89.1 - 105.2%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO

252+ Atk Beartic Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 640-756 (152.3 - 180%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Beartic Icicle Crash vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Great Tusk: 242-288 (65.2 - 77.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Beartic Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Great Tusk: 182-216 (41.9 - 49.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Beartic Icicle Crash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hydreigon: 336-396 (103.3 - 121.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Beartic Icicle Crash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Meowscarada: 408-482 (139.2 - 164.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Beartic Icicle Crash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Roaring Moon: 408-480 (116.2 - 136.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Beartic Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Ting-Lu: 254-300 (49.4 - 58.3%) -- 66.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
​

Icicle Crash also has a 30% flinch chance, which is nice for some slower Pokemon. While Icicle Crash's power is great for handling some monstrous threats, it doesn't justify Beartic's inclusion on an OU team, so what's next? Liquidation, in addition to boosts that Beartic gets within the spell of Rain. Liquidation is a base 85-power Water-type Physical move with a 20% chance to drop an opponent's Defense stat, this means that Beartic has a chance to muscle through specific threats that would normally be able to weather its attacks. Additionally, Tera Water means that Liquidation gains STAB, in addition to that, Rain boosts Liquidation's power even further. So to demonstrate, I'm going to show you two different types of damage calculations - Tera Water Liquidation outside of rain, and Tera Water Liquidation inside of rain.

Liquidation Damage Calculations (Tera Water, No Rain)

252+ Atk Tera Water Beartic Liquidation vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Armarouge: 306-362 (98.3 - 116.3%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Tera Water Beartic Liquidation vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Ceruledge: 368-434 (103.9 - 122.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Tera Water Beartic Liquidation vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Cinderace: 390-458 (129.5 - 152.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Tera Water Beartic Liquidation vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Clodsire: 458-540 (98.9 - 116.6%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Tera Water Beartic Liquidation vs. 252 HP / 156+ Def Garganacl: 198-234 (49 - 57.9%) -- 49.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Tera Water Beartic Liquidation vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Glimmora: 332-392 (108.1 - 127.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Tera Water Beartic Liquidation vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Great Tusk: 242-288 (65.2 - 77.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Tera Water Beartic Liquidation vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Great Tusk: 182-216 (41.9 - 49.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Tera Water Beartic Liquidation vs. 0 HP / 124 Def Iron Moth: 386-456 (128.2 - 151.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Tera Water Beartic Liquidation vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Iron Treads: 260-308 (80.9 - 95.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Tera Water Beartic Liquidation vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Skeledirge: 306-362 (74.4 - 88%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Tera Water Beartic Liquidation vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Ting-Lu: 254-300 (49.4 - 58.3%) -- 66.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Tera Water Beartic Liquidation vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Volcarona: 434-512 (139.5 - 164.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Tera Water Beartic Liquidation vs. 248 HP / 108 Def Volcarona: 372-440 (99.7 - 117.9%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO

Liquidation Damage Calculations (Tera Water + Rain)

(Super Effective)

252+ Atk Tera Water Beartic Liquidation vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Armarouge in Rain: 458-542 (147.2 - 174.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Tera Water Beartic Liquidation vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Ceruledge in Rain: 552-650 (155.9 - 183.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Tera Water Beartic Liquidation vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Cinderace in Rain: 582-686 (193.3 - 227.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Tera Water Beartic Liquidation vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Clodsire in Rain: 686-810 (148.1 - 174.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Tera Water Beartic Liquidation vs. 252 HP / 156+ Def Garganacl in Rain: 296-350 (73.2 - 86.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Tera Water Beartic Liquidation vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Glimmora in Rain: 498-588 (162.2 - 191.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Tera Water Beartic Liquidation vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Great Tusk in Rain: 366-432 (98.6 - 116.4%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Tera Water Beartic Liquidation vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Great Tusk in Rain: 272-324 (62.6 - 74.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Tera Water Beartic Liquidation vs. 0 HP / 124 Def Iron Moth in Rain: 578-684 (192 - 227.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Tera Water Beartic Liquidation vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Iron Treads in Rain: 390-462 (121.4 - 143.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Tera Water Beartic Liquidation vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Skeledirge in Rain: 458-542 (111.4 - 131.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Tera Water Beartic Liquidation vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Ting-Lu in Rain: 380-450 (73.9 - 87.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Tera Water Beartic Liquidation vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Volcarona in Rain: 650-768 (209 - 246.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Tera Water Beartic Liquidation vs. 248 HP / 108 Def Volcarona in Rain: 560-660 (150.1 - 176.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

(Neutral Hits)

252+ Atk Tera Water Beartic Liquidation vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Corviknight in Rain: 160-189 (40.1 - 47.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Tera Water Beartic Liquidation vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gholdengo in Rain: 240-283 (76.1 - 89.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Tera Water Beartic Liquidation vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gholdengo in Rain: 171-202 (45.2 - 53.4%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Tera Water Beartic Liquidation vs. 252 HP / 204+ Def Hatterene in Rain: 178-211 (55.9 - 66.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Tera Water Beartic Liquidation vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Iron Valiant in Rain: 252-297 (86.8 - 102.4%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Tera Water Beartic Liquidation vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zoroark-Hisui in Rain: 348-409 (138.6 - 162.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
​

With or without Rain, Tera-Water Liquidation tears through a huge portion of the tier, however, within the rain it's an entirely different monster. It's not just this overwhelming pressure under the rain that makes Liquidation so threatening, it's the chance that, at any moment with a 20% Defense drop chance, a solid check or counter to Beartic becomes faint fodder. Ice / Water is a brilliant offensive STAB combination, and thanks to Beartic turning pure Water-type with Tera, it can use both without the pitfalls that come with that typing (sorry Lapras). As if this wasn't enough, Beartic has access to one of the most potent coverage moves in the game - Close Combat. Baxcalibur only has access to Brick Break and Body Press for Fighting-type coverage, meaning that it will most often be relegated to using an alternative coverage move such as Earthquake. While Earthquake is powerful, it lacks several key advantages of Close Combat for a physical Ice-type attacker specifically - let's take a look at Close Combat calculations so we understand why.

Close Combat Damage Calculations
View attachment 512621

252+ Atk Beartic Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Baxcalibur: 306-362 (82.4 - 97.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Beartic Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Cyclizar: 406-478 (118 - 138.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Beartic Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 156+ Def Garganacl: 184-218 (45.5 - 53.9%) -- 2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Beartic Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Greninja: 398-470 (139.6 - 164.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Beartic Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hydreigon: 314-370 (96.6 - 113.8%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Beartic Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Iron Treads: 246-290 (76.6 - 90.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Beartic Close Combat vs. 236 HP / 0 Def Kingambit: 492-580 (123 - 145%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Beartic Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Meowscarada: 384-454 (131 - 154.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Beartic Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 4+ Def Orthworm: 190-224 (55.2 - 65.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Beartic Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Roaring Moon: 382-450 (108.8 - 128.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Beartic Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Ting-Lu: 238-280 (46.3 - 54.4%) -- 6.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Close Combat not only allows for Beartic to hit Dark, Ice, Steel, Rock, and Normal Types super effectively but bypasses the most annoying aspect of Earthquake - Flying-type + Levitate immunity, in addition to bypassing Earthquake's Grass-type resistance. Close Combat's base power of 120 is higher than Earthquake's 100 base power as well, providing more firepower for a coverage move.
View attachment 512609
Defensive Capabilities
​

So now you're thinking, alright, it can hit like a truck with or without rain, but what about taking hits? You've probably heard some serious woes about Beartic's defensive profile, however, an important fact to keep in mind is that Beartic's defenses are a respectable 95/80/80. Additionally, with Assault Vest, Beartic can live some surprisingly strong special hits, including super effective ones - let's take a look at defensive calculations for both Ice-type Beartic and Terastallized Water-type Beartic. The Tera-Water calculations will focus more on moves that Beartic would not have enjoyed taking while an Ice-type and will not have duplicates of neutral damage calculations.

Defensive Ice Calculations
View attachment 512619

0 SpA Amoonguss Sludge Bomb vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Beartic: 67-81 (20.2 - 24.4%) -- 100% chance to 4HKO
252+ SpA Armarouge Expanding Force vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Beartic: 112-133 (33.8 - 40.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Beartic: 211-250 (63.7 - 75.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Beartic: 196-232 (59.2 - 70%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Gholdengo Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Beartic: 108-127 (32.6 - 38.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252 SpA Glimmora Power Gem vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Beartic: 210-248 (63.4 - 74.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Glimmora Sludge Wave vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Beartic: 126-148 (38 - 44.7%) -- 59% chance to 2HKO

252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Beartic: 184-217 (55.5 - 65.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Protean Greninja Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Beartic: 201-237 (60.7 - 71.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

0 SpA Hatterene Mystical Fire vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Beartic: 112-134 (33.8 - 40.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Hydreigon Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Beartic: 102-121 (30.8 - 36.5%) -- 64.7% chance to 3HKO

132 SpA Iron Moth Fiery Dance vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Beartic: 204-242 (61.6 - 73.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Iron Moth Sludge Wave vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Beartic: 132-156 (39.8 - 47.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252 SpA Iron Valiant Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Beartic: 118-139 (35.6 - 41.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0 SpA Rotom-Wash Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Beartic: 100-118 (30.2 - 35.6%) -- 32.5% chance to 3HKO

8 SpA Skeledirge Torch Song vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Beartic: 152-180 (45.9 - 54.3%) -- 47.3% chance to 2HKO
0 SpA Slowking Future Sight vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Beartic: 103-123 (31.1 - 37.1%) -- 77.8% chance to 3HKO
8 SpA Torkoal Lava Plume vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Beartic in Sun: 186-218 (56.1 - 65.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Volcarona Bug Buzz vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Beartic: 121-144 (36.5 - 43.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Volcarona Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Beartic: 242-288 (73.1 - 87%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

244 SpA Choice Specs Walking Wake Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Beartic: 246-291 (74.3 - 87.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
244 SpA Choice Specs Walking Wake Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Beartic: 228-270 (68.8 - 81.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
244 SpA Choice Specs Walking Wake Hydro Steam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Beartic: 153-180 (46.2 - 54.3%) -- 53.1% chance to 2HKO

252 SpA Choice Specs Zoroark-Hisui Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Tera Water Beartic: 153-181 (46.2 - 54.6%) -- 61.3% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Zoroark-Hisui Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Beartic: 230-272 (69.4 - 82.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Defensive Water Calculations

252+ SpA Armarouge Armor Cannon vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Tera Water Beartic: 84-99 (25.3 - 29.9%) -- 54% chance to 3HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Tera Water Beartic: 49-58 (14.8 - 17.5%) -- possible 5HKO

252 SpA Gholdengo Make It Rain vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Tera Water Beartic: 80-94 (24.1 - 28.3%) -- 7.1% chance to 3HKO
252 SpA Gholdengo Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Tera Water Beartic: 107-126 (32.3 - 38%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252 SpA Glimmora Power Gem vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Tera Water Beartic: 105-124 (31.7 - 37.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Tera Water Beartic: 92-108 (27.7 - 32.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0 SpA Hatterene Mystical Fire vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Tera Water Beartic: 28-33 (8.4 - 9.9%) -- possibly the worst move ever

132 SpA Iron Moth Fiery Dance vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Tera Water Beartic: 51-60 (15.4 - 18.1%) -- possible 6HKO
132 SpA Iron Moth Energy Ball vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Tera Water Beartic: 154-182 (46.5 - 54.9%) -- 62.1% chance to 2HKO

0 SpA Rotom-Wash Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Tera Water Beartic: 50-59 (15.1 - 17.8%) -- possible 6HKO

8 SpA Skeledirge Torch Song vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Tera Water Beartic: 38-45 (11.4 - 13.5%) -- possible 8HKO
+2 8 SpA Skeledirge Torch Song vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Tera Water Beartic: 75-89 (22.6 - 26.8%) -- 35.2% chance to 4HKO

8 SpA Torkoal Lava Plume vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Tera Water Beartic in Sun: 46-54 (13.8 - 16.3%) -- possible 7HKO
252 SpA Volcarona Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Tera Water Beartic: 60-72 (18.1 - 21.7%) -- possible 5HKO

244 SpA Choice Specs Walking Wake Hydro Steam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Tera Water Beartic: 76-90 (22.9 - 27.1%) -- 49.9% chance to 4HKO
244 SpA Choice Specs Walking Wake Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Tera Water Beartic: 57-67 (17.2 - 20.2%) -- possible 5HKO

252 SpA Choice Specs Zoroark-Hisui Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Tera Water Beartic: 57-68 (17.2 - 20.5%) -- possible 5HKO
​

Beartic can not only live some powerful neutral and resisted hits but even some monstrous super effective ones, thanks to the power of Assault Vest. While I haven't listed every possible defensive calculation here, this should substantiate that, regardless of the type Beartic currently is, you should have plenty of opportunities to switch in thanks to a cushy base 95 HP stat, meaning that Beartic will have 331 HP with no investment combined with the stellar Special Defense boost from Assault Vest.

Potential Partners

Pelipper

Pelipper goes without saying - sets rain, and is physically tanky with access to Roost for recovery + STAB Hydro Pump and STAB 100% accurate Hurricane. Rain will activate Swift Swim, and it's also nice that Beartic's pre-tera Ice typing pairs well with Pelipper's Water/Flying typing (Great Tusk, anyone?)

Hatterene

Physically bulky and packed with useful utility moves + the ability Magic Bounce to reflect hazards and status, Hatterene is a fantastic switch-in for many Pokemon that could potentially give Beartic trouble. Is something Scarf'd annoying you? Give em' the old nuzzleduzzle or chip their threats with Mystical Fire or Dazzling Gleam.

Zoroark-Hisui

Zoroark being part Ghost-type and having the Illusion ability means that it can lure powerful Fighting-type attacks from Pokemon such as Great Tusk or Iron Valiant and take them out of commission with powerful STAB attacks, as Zoroark takes approximately 0% damage from any Fighting-type moves (make sure that Beartic is placed last in your part if you're planning to do this strategy). H-Zoroark is my favorite Pokemon to pair with Beartic.

Conclusion
View attachment 512644

Beartic isn't a miracle worker, it needs team support to properly operate - however, if you can get it going, Beartic's unique qualities will slam huge holes into your opponent's team cores. Ice/Water STAB with Fighting coverage as an offensive combination is unfamiliar territory for many OU teams to handle reliably when compressed into a single slot, and that is where Beartic's scariest moments come shining through.​

Nice post. Only one thing to add. I used Beartic at the beginning of the Gen with this one set:



Bernie (Beartic) (M) @ Heavy-Duty Boots / Life Orb / Leftovers / Lum Berry / (Pretty sure you can make some other items work here)
Ability: Swift Swim / Slush Rush
Tera Type: Electric
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Tera Blast
- Icicle Crash
- Liquidation / Earthquake / Close Combat / Crunch / Encore / Play Rough / Substitute / Whatever (has many options in this slot).

Options in Bold are the ones I used. Just like many Electric and Ice Mons, transforming into the other type makes you have Boltbeam, powerful STAB combination that only Rotom-H and Rotom-F currently resist. Beartic has enough bulk to set a SD and enough Speed to outspeed everything except Dragapult (you could try running Jolly, but power lose is notable) in OU. This way, Beartic breaks bulky cores, leaving offensive ones (Booster Energy and Scarfers) for Floatzel.
Also, Liquidation is the move I tried in the last slot because Skeledirge is a massive counter otherwise.

 

[tommytt22]

I disagree that Tera is the most broken thing about these Mons. Especially when you look at the previous bans: Chien Pao, ChiYu, Annihalape, Cyclizar and arguably Espathra were all banned independently of tera. Sure, they became stronger with tera, but the broken factors were different.

I'd say it's similar with current Mon, albeit to a lesser extent. Salt Cure breaks Garg, Multiscale and a bonkers movepool breaks Dragonite. Volcarona is the exception to be fair - I think it would be manageable without Tera - but why ban the mechanic to salvage a Mon that's been close to overpowered for a long time?

For transparency, I don't think either Garg or DNite are broken, just exceptionally good, but I can see the arguments for both.

I can't agree that dragonite and garg are top threats without tera. Garg is B at BEST being rock type, dnite maybe A- since its so versatile. Dragonite has had the same tools for several generations without being a problem and see my post above about garg. Volcarona is a bit obnoxious either way I'll give you that. But espathra was basically fodder for any dark type without tera fighting/fairy so it absolutely was tera that broke that bird. Chien pao is a 50/50 but it was stated that the choice band tera dark crunch set is what made it worth the ban. So tera was involved with a lot of them

Here's a good question, where would kingambit be on the viability ranks without tera, cause tera flying is the only way it beats great tusk, a pokemon on 60% of teams.

 

[furyofyuriy]

Here's a good question, where would kingambit be on the viability ranks without tera, cause tera flying is the only way it beats great tusk, a pokemon on 60% of teams.

Still incredibly strong, because it's existence in the tier is independent of it's need to tera flying. Ghost Spam keeps this guy eating good in matches, which because Ghost is so common Fighting mons are more relegated to Great Tusk on most teams. Kingambit loses to Great Tusk, but typically in a game they hit the field at different times. Supreme Overlord is an amazing ability but can be mitigated if the opponent is forced to bring it out earlier than 4-5 ally KO's. And Base 135 Attack Sucker punch go brrrrr.

 

[Exotic64]

Here's a good question, where would kingambit be on the viability ranks without tera, cause tera flying is the only way it beats great tusk, a pokemon on 60% of teams.

I still think it would be A+ maybe even S- still; frankly enough from playing HO teams I haven't found many instances where I would tera gambit over moth or valiant or bulk up tusk, and when I have used tera ive always favoured fairy/dark/fire over flying. Sure flying beats tusk 1 on 1 but kingambit is a late game sweeper and the tiers best revenge killer and honestly if tusk is the only counter then it is not that hard to chip the tusk down to low enough for gambit to sweep. kingambit is an offensive mon and thus I feel like its typing is not detrimental to drop it down to B or C tier - just look at gen8 bisharp. buzzwole, fini, ferro etc would all wall bisharp but mon stayed OU because it just does so much damage and is just such a good revenge killer. gen9 kingambit is just a dps monster lategame and regardless of type it kills everyone with supreme overlord.
+ with how many kingambits there are in the meta rn if you turn flying type the enemy kingambit can come and revenge kill you so that's why I feel dark is better because dps go hard

 

[tommytt22]

I still think it would be A+ maybe even S- still; frankly enough from playing HO teams I haven't found many instances where I would tera gambit over moth or valiant or bulk up tusk, and when I have used tera ive always favoured fairy/dark/fire over flying. Sure flying beats tusk 1 on 1 but kingambit is a late game sweeper and the tiers best revenge killer and honestly if tusk is the only counter then it is not that hard to chip the tusk down to low enough for gambit to sweep. kingambit is an offensive mon and thus I feel like its typing is not detrimental to drop it down to B or C tier - just look at gen8 bisharp. buzzwole, fini, ferro etc would all wall bisharp but mon stayed OU because it just does so much damage and is just such a good revenge killer. gen9 kingambit is just a dps monster lategame and regardless of type it kills everyone with supreme overlord.
+ with how many kingambits there are in the meta rn if you turn flying type the enemy kingambit can come and revenge kill you so that's why I feel dark is better because dps go hard

woah woah no ones saying gambit is c tier hahaha. My point is more that tera helps some pokemon more than others, and its whats causing the discussion around "banworthy" pokemon. I cant say for certain since none of us have played without it but i dont think theres anything in the tier thats broken without tera.
Great tusk for example is pretty unchanged if tera wasnt here, still S tier. Amoongus, toxapex, volcarona, dragapult pretty much do what they've always done.

252+ Atk Technician Breloom Mach Punch vs. 84 HP / 4 Def Kingambit: 372-436 (102.7 - 120.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Theres actually a lot of 1v1s gambit loses if it cant change type
252+ Atk Supreme Overlord burned 5 allies fainted Kingambit Kowtow Cleave vs. 136 HP / 252+ Def Skeledirge: 169-199 (44.1 - 51.9%) -- 14.1% chance to 2HKO
Even physdef Skeledirge starts giving it grief, you can run some speed to outpace it and with a burn it almost cant 2hko you with kowtow anymore even with 5+ supreme overlord
I think Gambit is realistically only A rank without tera to back it up

Dragonite, iron moth, garg, baxcalibur all get a lot worse without tera, ceruledge probably drops from OU (I dont know why its still here)

 

[Lectrys]

With Tera "creating 50/50s" being brought up lately, I'm actually of the mind that Terastallization creates shockingly few 50/50s: in quite a lot of 1-vs-1 situations, Terastallizing is the single best thing you can do because your opponent now can no longer KO your mon in time.

Take this Roaring Moon vs. Gholdengo match-up, for example:

It's late-game, Gholdengo set up in the face of one of your walls, and now someone's got to check it and in this case, it's Booster Energy Roaring Moon. Pretty much every single one of your remaining offensive checks to Gholdengo is facing this OHKO if they slip up:

+2 252 SpA Gholdengo Make It Rain vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Roaring Moon: 393-463 (111.9 - 131.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Roaring Moon sounds like a great late-game check to Gholdengo on paper:

252 Atk Protosynthesis Roaring Moon Crunch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gholdengo: 372-440 (118 - 139.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Roaring Moon Crunch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gholdengo: 288-342 (91.4 - 108.5%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Protosynthesis Roaring Moon Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gholdengo: 312-368 (99 - 116.8%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Roaring Moon Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gholdengo: 240-284 (76.1 - 90.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

But now Gholdengo goes Tera Flying and nothing Roaring Moon can do can OHKO Gholdengo anymore:

252 Atk Protosynthesis Roaring Moon Crunch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tera Flying Gholdengo: 186-220 (59 - 69.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Protosynthesis Tera Flying Roaring Moon Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tera Flying Gholdengo: 256-303 (81.2 - 96.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

...except Stone Edge but pretty much nobody runs that on Roaring Moon.

(I actually ran Tera Fairy mixed defensive Gholdengo that game, so the Make It Rain calc was worse but the Gholdengo defensive calcs were better. Their Roaring Moon was also chipped and turned out to be Choice Band, so...)

Situations like this happen over and over. Too often, your mon suddenly wins the 1-vs-1 post-Tera regardless of what your opponent does. Arguably the truest 50/50 left is whether you should Will-O-Wisp that Kingambit because Tera Fire is the only Tera that will actually stave it off.

(This and my damage calculator usage in the teambuilder naturally preparing me for Band/Specs users and therefore New STAB Tera users and Same STAB Tera users as long as they don't boost any further are why I personally think defensive/New STAB Tera is more busted than Same STAB Tera. Same STAB Tera users similarly warping around half their defensive calcs in their favour by dropping one of their defensive types is still heck to deal with around half the time, though.)

(On another note, in the mid- to late-game, I can often figure out that there is a Mathematically Best Tera I can use because around half the opposing team has been KOed and one of my remaining Tera types can best shred the rest of their team. Sometimes, the Mathematically Best Tera is, in fact, none of them.)

 

[Xufactor]

I'm kind of in awe that you've managed to keep this ridiculous bad faith argument going for days now.

Obviously, your argument is in bad faith too, because I disagree with you.
People replied. This is going to be relevant with Last Respects when Home comes out.

(And I must take this time to stress that Wicked Blow is not on any other mon and therefore your entire argument is nonsense, pointless, derailing theorymonning) it would be obvious to pretty much anyone that it's Urshifu that's too strong, not Wicked Blow, because having a strong attacking move is not enough to instantly catapult Pokemon up three tiers except Last Respects maybe but that's a post Home discussion and there has never been a move as powerful and brainless as Last Respects so work with me here.
And again, no one else has Wicked Blow, so there's just no reason to discuss banning the move and not Urshifu.

You have no evidence that I want the move to be banned. I'm responding to the "inherent brokenness" argument people gave. The initial post about Wicked Blow being always the problem was just to copy-paste the words from the post before.

My argument is not that Wicked Blow and Shed Tail should both be banned. My argument is that people's claims about "inherent brokenness" are incorrect. I didn't argue against the one mon thing.

What is the rule that would ban Shed Tail but not Wicked Blow? Just the one mon learns it rule?

My arguments haven't been countered. A mod started with theorymon arguments and wanted to stop when I gave counterexamples. People deflected to things like Smeargle.
I don't think the people who used the phrase "inherently broken" can define it.
That's necessary for their points to be recognized.

 

[furyofyuriy]

My point is more that tera helps some pokemon more than others, and its whats causing the discussion around "banworthy" pokemon.
Dragonite, iron moth, garg, baxcalibur all get a lot worse without tera, ceruledge probably drops from OU (I dont know why its still here)

I think in the vast majority of cases, the arguments about tera pushing a mon over the top undermine the true value of most of the tiers pokemon that are genuinely just good and powerful threats.
Garg is still one of the best stall tanks in the game even if you take Tera away from it. Roaring Moon is still an amazing set up sweeper. Ceruledge exists to deal with the moth twins because it's unique typing walls both their stabs and most variations of their Tera's, so as long as they are prominent he will still see OU play.

Baxcalibur gets worse without it currently, until you take a peak at what's coming in HOME and realize a Multi Hit ice type attack, ice shard spamming, and Burn immune Dragon steps on many of the incoming mons.

Dragonite and Volcarona are honestly the only two mons in the whole tier that I think can truly be said abuse the mechanic. Volcarona's Godlike coverage lets it functional act as whatever Tera type you need for your team, while Dragonite's bulk + Extreme Speed and Ddance make him a menace. But even then, I wouldn't call Dragonite Broken as that specific set is so Tera Reliant that if you or your opponent Tera anything on your team other than Dnite, it's damage output goes considerably down. And we can't really say Extreme Speed + Tera Normal is Broken because Lucario has it and is UU.

 

[tommytt22]

With Tera "creating 50/50s" being brought up lately, I'm actually of the mind that Terastallization creates shockingly few 50/50s: in quite a lot of 1-vs-1 situations, Terastallizing is the single best thing you can do because your opponent now can no longer KO your mon in time.

Take this Roaring Moon vs. Gholdengo match-up, for example:

It's late-game, Gholdengo set up in the face of one of your walls, and now someone's got to check it and in this case, it's Booster Energy Roaring Moon. Pretty much every single one of your remaining offensive checks to Gholdengo is facing this OHKO if they slip up:

+2 252 SpA Gholdengo Make It Rain vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Roaring Moon: 393-463 (111.9 - 131.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Roaring Moon sounds like a great late-game check to Gholdengo on paper:

252 Atk Protosynthesis Roaring Moon Crunch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gholdengo: 372-440 (118 - 139.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Roaring Moon Crunch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gholdengo: 288-342 (91.4 - 108.5%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Protosynthesis Roaring Moon Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gholdengo: 312-368 (99 - 116.8%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Roaring Moon Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gholdengo: 240-284 (76.1 - 90.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

But now Gholdengo goes Tera Flying and nothing Roaring Moon can do can OHKO Gholdengo anymore:

252 Atk Protosynthesis Roaring Moon Crunch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tera Flying Gholdengo: 186-220 (59 - 69.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Protosynthesis Tera Flying Roaring Moon Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tera Flying Gholdengo: 256-303 (81.2 - 96.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

...except Stone Edge but pretty much nobody runs that on Roaring Moon.

(I actually ran Tera Fairy mixed defensive Gholdengo that game, so the Make It Rain calc was worse but the Gholdengo defensive calcs were better. Their Roaring Moon was also chipped and turned out to be Choice Band, so...)

Situations like this happen over and over. Too often, your mon suddenly wins the 1-vs-1 post-Tera regardless of what your opponent does. Arguably the truest 50/50 left is whether you should Will-O-Wisp that Kingambit because Tera Fire is the only Tera that will actually stave it off.

(This and my damage calculator usage in the teambuilder naturally preparing me for Band/Specs users and therefore New STAB Tera users and Same STAB Tera users as long as they don't boost any further are why I personally think defensive/New STAB Tera is more busted than Same STAB Tera. Same STAB Tera users similarly warping around half their defensive calcs in their favour by dropping one of their defensive types is still heck to deal with around half the time, though.)

(On another note, in the mid- to late-game, I can often figure out that there is a Mathematically Best Tera I can use because around half the opposing team has been KOed and one of my remaining Tera types can best shred the rest of their team. Sometimes, the Mathematically Best Tera is, in fact, none of them.)

Look thats a compeling point but i dont really think thats the 50/50. ultimately in that case there wasnt really a choice for the opponent, by the sounds of it roaring moon always loses to tera and they had no options left in the back either so there wasnt a prediction to be made, theyd already lost. Here's a 50/50 you couldnt predict. baxcalibur comes out on your skeledirge. you have a dondozo and a corviknight.

1.dozo comes in expecting dragon or swords dance and gets hit with tera dragon choice band glaive rush - 2hko even with max defense
2.corviknight comes in expecting glaive/eq and is met with dd into ice spear.
3.you tera fairy on skeledirge to avoid glaive rush(not sure what you plan to attack with) tera ground eq 2hkos you

theres just no way to make a prediction on what its going to do until youve seen the set, but by then its usually done its job. I can come up with plenty more like is iron moth going to tera grass or tera ground? you could go to ceruledge or slowking but if you get it wrong youre in strife. Thats what people mean by a 50/50