DPPt In-Game Tier List Thread v2

:torterra::floatzel::rampardos::espeon:
Torterra: Staraptor's aerial ace does very little damage after Torterra uses 1 or 2 curses. Then it can heal itself with synthesis, uses more curses, and then OHKO everything.

Floatzel: It can defeat Staraptor, Roserade, Infernape, and one of Floatzel or Heracross.

Rampardos: It can defeat Staraptor and then one of Roserade, Floatzel, or Infernape.

Espeon: It outspeeds and OHKOs everything.

Torterra @ Sitrus berry
Level: 38
- synthesis
- curse
- earthquake
- wood hammer

Floatzel @ choice specs
Level: 38
- blizzard
- surf
- focus blast
- crunch

Rampardos @ expert belt
Level: 35
- endeavor
- fire punch
- earthquake
- rock tomb

Espeon @ choice specs
Level: 38
- psychic
- shadow ball
- grass knot
- growl
Torterra: It effortlessly uses curse and synthesis against Magneton, and then it can tank every attack and OHKO every Pokemon with earthquake.

Floatzel: It outspeeds and OHKOs everything.

Rampardos: It outspeeds everything and OHKOs Magneton and Bastiodon. Unfortunately, Steelix can take Rampardos's earthquake and OHKO with its own earthquake.

Espeon: It outspeeds and 2HKOs everything. Byron can win if he uses attack moves like thunderbolt or metal burst, but instead he uses useless status moves like metal sound and taunt.

Torterra @ expert belt
Level: 42
- synthesis
- curse
- earthquake
- wood hammer

Floatzel @ choice specs
Level: 41
- blizzard
- surf
- focus blast
- crunch

Rampardos @ expert belt
Level: 38
- endeavor
- fire punch
- earthquake
- rock tomb

Espeon @ choice specs
Level: 41
- psychic
- shadow ball
- grass knot
- growl
Torterra: It can defeat both Sneasel and Piloswine, loses the 1v1 against Abomasnow, and gets outsped and OHKO'd by Froslass.

Floatzel: It can outspeed everything and OHKO everything except Froslass. Froslass cannot 2HKO Floatzel, so Floatzel still easily wins the 1v1.

Rampardos: After one rock polish, it outspeeds everything, OHKOs Sneasel and Abomasnow, and usually OHKOs Piloswine and Froslass.

Espeon: It outspeeds everything and OHKOs Piloswine and Froslass. Espeon can defeat either Sneasel or Abomasnow, but not both.

Torterra @ Sitrus berry
Level: 46
- synthesis
- swords dance
- earthquake
- wood hammer

Floatzel @ choice specs
Level: 45
- blizzard
- surf
- focus blast
- crunch

Rampardos @ expert belt
Level: 43
- rock polish
- fire punch
- earthquake
- rock tomb

Espeon @ choice specs
Level: 46
- psychic
- shadow ball
- grass knot
- growl
Torterra: It can either use earthquake to win the 1v1 against Sneasel or use curse and synthesis to win the 1v1 against Honchkrow. Synthesis does not have enough PP to let Torterra sweep.

Floatzel: It OHKOs Sneasel and Honchkrow and 2HKOs Crobat.

Rampardos: It OHKOs Sneasel and Honchkrow and 2HKOs Crobat.

Espeon: It can defeat both Sneasel and Crobat but is totally useless against Honchkrow.

Torterra @ Sitrus berry
Level: 47
- synthesis
- curse
- earthquake
- wood hammer

Floatzel @ choice specs
Level: 46
- focus blast
- surf
- ice beam
- crunch

Rampardos @ expert belt
Level: 44
- rock polish
- fire punch
- earthquake
- rock tomb

Espeon @ choice specs
Level: 46
- psychic
- shadow ball
- grass knot
- growl
Also I'm using Golduck as a HM slave because I'm too cool to use Bibarel.
:torterra::floatzel::rampardos::espeon:
 
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:torterra::floatzel::rampardos::espeon:
Torterra: It can win the 1v1 against Houndoom, Gyarados, or Honchkrow, but Cyrus has too many moves that are both special and super effective and can easily prevent Torterra from sweeping.

Floatzel: It can outspeed and OHKO Houndoom and then defeat Weavile or both Crobat and Honchkrow.

Rampardos: Setting up on Houndoom lets Gyarados intimidate Rampardos, survive a rock slide, use waterfall, and OHKO. Setting up on Gyarados lets it outspeed, use waterfall, and OHKO. Rampardos can set up on Honchkrow and then defeat both Crobat and Weavile.

Espeon: It can win the 1v1 against Gyarados or Crobat, but not both.

Torterra @ Sitrus berry
Level: 49
- synthesis
- curse
- earthquake
- wood hammer

Floatzel @ choice specs
Level: 48
- focus blast
- surf
- ice beam
- crunch

Rampardos @ expert belt
Level: 47
- rock polish
- fire punch
- earthquake
- rock slide

Espeon @ choice specs
Level: 47
- psychic
- shadow ball
- grass knot
- growl
Torterra: It easily sets up curse against Jolteon, heals off all damage with synthesis, and OHKOs all the opponents.

Floatzel: It cannot OHKO anything, so it can 1v1 Jolteon, Raichu, or Luxray, but cannot defeat any 2 of them.

Rampardos: After using rock polish, Rampardos outspeeds and OHKOs everything except Luxray, which it still 2HKOs pretty easily.

Espeon: It outspeeds and OHKOs everything.

Giratina: It resists most of Volkner's attacks. As long as Jolteon does not use thunder wave, Giratina can survive every attack, use shadow force or dragon claw, and eventually win.

Torterra @ expert belt
Level: 52
- synthesis
- curse
- earthquake
- wood hammer

Floatzel @ choice specs
Level: 51
- focus blast
- surf
- ice beam
- crunch

Rampardos @ Cheri berry
Level: 51
- rock polish
- fire punch
- earthquake
- rock slide

Espeon @ choice specs
Level: 51
- psychic
- shadow ball
- grass knot
- growl

Giratina @ Sitrus berry
Level: 48
- thunderbolt
- ancient power
- dragon claw
- shadow force
Torterra: It can 1v1 any of the rival's Pokemon. Unfortunately, his Infernape knows flamethrower this time, which means it can stop Torterra's sweep regardless of how many curses Torterra can set up.

Floatzel: It can 1v1 any of the rival's Pokemon. With splash plate, Floatzel can't OHKO Roserade. With choice specs, it can't OHKO Heracross or Floatzel. Either way, Floatzel cannot sweep.

Rampardos: After using one rock polish, Rampardos outspeeds everything and OHKOs everything except Snorlax, which Rampardos can still 2HKO pretty easily.

Espeon: It outspeeds everything and OHKOs everything except Snorlax, which Espeon can still 2HKO pretty easily.

Giratina: It can safely use charge beam against Staraptor and Floatzel. This makes Giratina strong enough to defeat the rival's entire team before fainting.

Torterra @ expert belt
Level: 53
- stone edge
- swords dance
- earthquake
- wood hammer

Floatzel @ splash plate
Level: 53
- focus blast
- surf
- ice beam
- rain dance

Rampardos @ expert belt
Level: 53
- rock polish
- fire punch
- earthquake
- rock slide

Espeon @ choice specs
Level: 52
- psychic
- shadow ball
- grass knot
- growl

Giratina @ Sitrus berry
Level: 50
- shadow force
- charge beam
- thunderbolt
- dragon pulse
Aaron
Torterra: Stone edge has a 60% chance of OHKOing Yanmega after one double team. If it succeeds, then Aaron sends out Vespiquen, which kindly uses defend order as Torterra sets up swords dance. Torterra then outspeeds and OHKOs Vespiquen and Scizor, survives Heracross's megahorn, and OHKOs Heracross. Drapion stops Torterra from completely soloing this battle.

Floatzel: Heracross and Scizor can both survive Floatzel's rain-boosted surf and OHKO it. Floatzel can sweep the other 3 Pokemon.

Rampardos: Heracross survives Rampardos's expert belt-boosted fire punch and OHKOs with close combat. Rampardos can set up on Yanmega and Vespiquen and sweep the other 4 Pokemon, though.

Espeon: It outspeeds and OHKOs Yanmega and Heracross. Espeon cannot win the 1v1 against any of the other 3.

Giratina: It can occasionally sweep, but only if charge beam hits Yanmega after Yanmega uses double team, charge beam raises special attack enough times, air slash doesn't make Giratina flinch too much, and Drapion's ice fang doesn't critical hit or freeze.

Bertha
Torterra: It easily uses curse against Whiscash. Torterra can then sweep if Gliscor's ice fang doesn't freeze.

Floatzel: It outspeeds everything and OHKOs everything except Whiscash, which Floatzel can still 2HKO very easily.

Rampardos: It can 1v1 Whiscash and nothing else.

Espeon: It outspeeds and OHKOs everything.

Giratina: It can defeat both Whiscash and Golem but cannot win the 1v1 against anything else.

Flint
Torterra: It outspeeds and OHKOs Houndoom and Flareon and can win the 1v1 against either Rapidash or Infernape.

Floatzel: It outspeeds everything and OHKOs everything except Magmortar when holding choice specs. Floatzel's surf can OHKO Magmortar only when boosted by both rain and a splash plate.

Rampardos: After one rock polish, Rampardos outspeeds and OHKOs everything. However, Infernape and Flareon use priority attacks, so Rampardos can sweep only 4 of Flint's Pokemon.

Espeon: It loses the 1v1 against Houndoom and Magmortar, but Espeon can sweep the other 3 Pokemon.

Giratina: It cannot win the 1v1 against Houndoom regardless of whether Giratina just spams dragon pulse or tries to set up. Giratina needs to hold a Rawst berry to not get burned, and the lack of Sitrus berry lets it sweep only 3 Pokemon.

Lucian
Torterra: Synthesis lets Torterra heal most of the damage from Mr. Mime, Espeon, and Bronzong and defeat those 3. Then Torterra loses more than half its HP from Alakazam's psychic and OHKOs Alakazam. Gallade finishes off Torterra.

Floatzel: It can defeat both Mr. Mime and Bronzong and nothing else.

Rampardos: Bronzong and Gallade both survive Rampardos's earthquake and 2HKO Rampardos, so Rampardos can defeat only Mr. Mime and Bronzong before Gallade stops the sweep.

Espeon: It outspeeds and OHKOs Mr. Mime and can then 1v1 one of Espeon, Alakazam, or Gallade. Espeon loses to Bronzong.

Giratina: It can solo only if the damage rolls are lucky.

Cynthia
Torterra: It can defeat Roserade or both Spiritomb and Lucario.

Floatzel: It can defeat Spiritomb or Lucario.

Rampardos: It can defeat Spiritomb.

Espeon: It can defeat Spiritomb, Roserade, Togekiss, or Milotic but cannot defeat any 2 of them.

Giratina: It can defeat Roserade or sometimes defeat Togekiss if it gets lucky with air slash and charge beam.

Torterra @ soft sand/Sitrus berry
Level: 53 to 55
- stone edge/synthesis
- swords dance/curse
- earthquake
- wood hammer

Floatzel @ choice specs/splash plate
Level: 53 to 54
- focus blast
- surf
- ice beam
- rain dance

Rampardos @ expert belt/soft sand
Level: 53 to 55
- rock polish
- fire punch
- earthquake
- rock slide/stone edge

Espeon @ choice specs
Level: 53 to 54
- psychic
- shadow ball
- grass knot
- growl

Giratina @ Sitrus berry/spell tag/Rawst berry
Level: 50
- shadow force
- charge beam
- thunderbolt
- dragon pulse
tfreg.png
:torterra::floatzel::rampardos::espeon::giratina:
Based on how often Torterra was able to solo strong opponents, it's definitely better than a majority of the stuff in A tier. I still don't really know whether it's good enough for S. I'll just leave my logs here and let you guys decide.

Rampardos to B. I'm probably the third or fourth person to say that Rampardos definitely does not belong in A. Thanks to its low speed, defenses, and many weaknesses, Rampardos is mostly just a waste of experience until it learns rock polish and the game is already more than halfway over. It does sweep some teams after learning rock polish, but A tier things should be able to achieve this without being useless against 4 gym leaders.

Espeon to A. Evolution and shallow movepool were probably the original reason Espeon was in B, but this run clearly showed that neither hurts Espeon very much when it has 130 base special attack (and can usually move first, unlike Rampardos). Even if most people evolve Espeon after battling Maylene, its uselessness against 2 gym leaders is still significantly less than Espeon's great or perfect matchups. Shallow movepool and psychic-resistant opponents were not enough to stop Espeon from sweeping Byron and doing pretty well against Cyrus at his HQ, and this is really a problem only in Cyrus's last battle.

Floatzel and Giratina can stay in A.

I think I'll use Empoleon, Gliscor, Jolteon, Gallade, and Azelf next time. Anyone want me to use something different?
 
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sumwun said:
:torterra::floatzel::rampardos::espeon:
Torterra: It can win the 1v1 against Houndoom, Gyarados, or Honchkrow, but Cyrus has too many moves that are both special and super effective and can easily prevent Torterra from sweeping.

Floatzel: It can outspeed and OHKO Houndoom and then defeat Weavile or both Crobat and Honchkrow.

Rampardos: Setting up on Houndoom lets Gyarados intimidate Rampardos, survive a rock slide, use waterfall, and OHKO. Setting up on Gyarados lets it outspeed, use waterfall, and OHKO. Rampardos can set up on Honchkrow and then defeat both Crobat and Weavile.

Espeon: It can win the 1v1 against Gyarados or Crobat, but not both.

Torterra @ Sitrus berry
Level: 49
- synthesis
- curse
- earthquake
- wood hammer

Floatzel @ choice specs
Level: 48
- focus blast
- surf
- ice beam
- crunch

Rampardos @ expert belt
Level: 47
- rock polish
- fire punch
- earthquake
- rock slide

Espeon @ choice specs
Level: 47
- psychic
- shadow ball
- grass knot
- growl
Torterra: It easily sets up curse against Jolteon, heals off all damage with synthesis, and OHKOs all the opponents.

Floatzel: It cannot OHKO anything, so it can 1v1 Jolteon, Raichu, or Luxray, but cannot defeat any 2 of them.

Rampardos: After using rock polish, Rampardos outspeeds and OHKOs everything except Luxray, which it still 2HKOs pretty easily.

Espeon: It outspeeds and OHKOs everything.

Giratina: It resists most of Volkner's attacks. As long as Jolteon does not use thunder wave, Giratina can survive every attack, use shadow force or dragon claw, and eventually win.

Torterra @ expert belt
Level: 52
- synthesis
- curse
- earthquake
- wood hammer

Floatzel @ choice specs
Level: 51
- focus blast
- surf
- ice beam
- crunch

Rampardos @ Cheri berry
Level: 51
- rock polish
- fire punch
- earthquake
- rock slide

Espeon @ choice specs
Level: 51
- psychic
- shadow ball
- grass knot
- growl

Giratina @ Sitrus berry
Level: 48
- thunderbolt
- ancient power
- dragon claw
- shadow force
Torterra: It can 1v1 any of the rival's Pokemon. Unfortunately, his Infernape knows flamethrower this time, which means it can stop Torterra's sweep regardless of how many curses Torterra can set up.

Floatzel: It can 1v1 any of the rival's Pokemon. With splash plate, Floatzel can't OHKO Roserade. With choice specs, it can't OHKO Heracross or Floatzel. Either way, Floatzel cannot sweep.

Rampardos: After using one rock polish, Rampardos outspeeds everything and OHKOs everything except Snorlax, which Rampardos can still 2HKO pretty easily.

Espeon: It outspeeds everything and OHKOs everything except Snorlax, which Espeon can still 2HKO pretty easily.

Giratina: It can safely use charge beam against Staraptor and Floatzel. This makes Giratina strong enough to defeat the rival's entire team before fainting.

Torterra @ expert belt
Level: 53
- stone edge
- swords dance
- earthquake
- wood hammer

Floatzel @ splash plate
Level: 53
- focus blast
- surf
- ice beam
- rain dance

Rampardos @ expert belt
Level: 53
- rock polish
- fire punch
- earthquake
- rock slide

Espeon @ choice specs
Level: 52
- psychic
- shadow ball
- grass knot
- growl

Giratina @ Sitrus berry
Level: 50
- shadow force
- charge beam
- thunderbolt
- dragon pulse
Aaron
Torterra: Stone edge has a 60% chance of OHKOing Yanmega after one double team. If it succeeds, then Aaron sends out Vespiquen, which kindly uses defend order as Torterra sets up swords dance. Torterra then outspeeds and OHKOs Vespiquen and Scizor, survives Heracross's megahorn, and OHKOs Heracross. Drapion stops Torterra from completely soloing this battle.

Floatzel: Heracross and Scizor can both survive Floatzel's rain-boosted surf and OHKO it. Floatzel can sweep the other 3 Pokemon.

Rampardos: Heracross survives Rampardos's expert belt-boosted fire punch and OHKOs with close combat. Rampardos can set up on Yanmega and Vespiquen and sweep the other 4 Pokemon, though.

Espeon: It outspeeds and OHKOs Yanmega and Heracross. Espeon cannot win the 1v1 against any of the other 3.

Giratina: It can occasionally sweep, but only if charge beam hits Yanmega after Yanmega uses double team, charge beam raises special attack enough times, air slash doesn't make Giratina flinch too much, and Drapion's ice fang doesn't critical hit or freeze.

Bertha
Torterra: It easily uses curse against Whiscash. Torterra can then sweep if Gliscor's ice fang doesn't freeze.

Floatzel: It outspeeds everything and OHKOs everything except Whiscash, which Floatzel can still 2HKO very easily.

Rampardos: It can 1v1 Whiscash and nothing else.

Espeon: It outspeeds and OHKOs everything.

Giratina: It can defeat both Whiscash and Golem but cannot win the 1v1 against anything else.

Flint
Torterra: It outspeeds and OHKOs Houndoom and Flareon and can win the 1v1 against either Rapidash or Infernape.

Floatzel: It outspeeds everything and OHKOs everything except Magmortar when holding choice specs. Floatzel's surf can OHKO Magmortar only when boosted by both rain and a splash plate.

Rampardos: After one rock polish, Rampardos outspeeds and OHKOs everything. However, Infernape and Flareon use priority attacks, so Rampardos can sweep only 4 of Flint's Pokemon.

Espeon: It loses the 1v1 against Houndoom and Magmortar, but Espeon can sweep the other 3 Pokemon.

Giratina: It cannot win the 1v1 against Houndoom regardless of whether Giratina just spams dragon pulse or tries to set up. Giratina needs to hold a Rawst berry to not get burned, and the lack of Sitrus berry lets it sweep only 3 Pokemon.

Lucian
Torterra: Synthesis lets Torterra heal most of the damage from Mr. Mime, Espeon, and Bronzong and defeat those 3. Then Torterra loses more than half its HP from Alakazam's psychic and OHKOs Alakazam. Gallade finishes off Torterra.

Floatzel: It can defeat both Mr. Mime and Bronzong and nothing else.

Rampardos: Bronzong and Gallade both survive Rampardos's earthquake and 2HKO Rampardos, so Rampardos can defeat only Mr. Mime and Bronzong before Gallade stops the sweep.

Espeon: It outspeeds and OHKOs Mr. Mime and can then 1v1 one of Espeon, Alakazam, or Gallade. Espeon loses to Bronzong.

Giratina: It can solo only if the damage rolls are lucky.

Cynthia
Torterra: It can defeat Roserade or both Spiritomb and Lucario.

Floatzel: It can defeat Spiritomb or Lucario.

Rampardos: It can defeat Spiritomb.

Espeon: It can defeat Spiritomb, Roserade, Togekiss, or Milotic but cannot defeat any 2 of them.

Giratina: It can defeat Roserade or sometimes defeat Togekiss if it gets lucky with air slash and charge beam.

Torterra @ soft sand/Sitrus berry
Level: 53 to 55
- stone edge/synthesis
- swords dance/curse
- earthquake
- wood hammer

Floatzel @ choice specs/splash plate
Level: 53 to 54
- focus blast
- surf
- ice beam
- rain dance

Rampardos @ expert belt/soft sand
Level: 53 to 55
- rock polish
- fire punch
- earthquake
- rock slide/stone edge

Espeon @ choice specs
Level: 53 to 54
- psychic
- shadow ball
- grass knot
- growl

Giratina @ Sitrus berry/spell tag/Rawst berry
Level: 50
- shadow force
- charge beam
- thunderbolt
- dragon pulse
View attachment 349081
:torterra::floatzel::rampardos::espeon::giratina:
Based on how often Torterra was able to solo strong opponents, it's definitely better than a majority of the stuff in A tier. I still don't really know whether it's good enough for S. I'll just leave my logs here and let you guys decide.

Rampardos to B. I'm probably the third or fourth person to say that Rampardos definitely does not belong in A. Thanks to its low speed, defenses, and many weaknesses, Rampardos is mostly just a waste of experience until it learns rock polish and the game is already more than halfway over. It does sweep some teams after learning rock polish, but A tier things should be able to achieve this without being useless against 4 gym leaders.

Espeon to A. Evolution and shallow movepool were probably the original reason Espeon was in B, but this run clearly showed that neither hurts Espeon very much when it has 130 base special attack (and can usually move first, unlike Rampardos). Even if most people evolve Espeon after battling Maylene, its uselessness against 2 gym leaders is still significantly less than Espeon's great or perfect matchups. Shallow movepool and psychic-resistant opponents were not enough to stop Espeon from sweeping Byron and doing pretty well against Cyrus at his HQ, and this is really a problem only in Cyrus's last battle.

Floatzel and Giratina can stay in A.

I think I'll use Empoleon, Gliscor, Jolteon, Gallade, and Azelf next time. Anyone want me to use something different?
Click to expand...
Just curious but how is Torterra outspeeding Houndoom and Flareon in the Flint MU? I don't see Rock Polish usage there.
 
Turdterra said:
Just curious but how is Torterra outspeeding Houndoom and Flareon in the Flint MU? I don't see Rock Polish usage there.
Click to expand...
According to this spreadsheet and Showdown!'s damage calculator, Houndoom and Flareon have 107 and 93 speed, respectively. When I battled Flint, my Torterra had 108 speed, partly because of its jolly nature. If its nature does not affect speed, then it would have to take a flamethrower from Houndoom before OHKOing it, but it would still outspeed Flareon.
 
1623781081522.png


Just as supplemental info there, you need 32 speed EVs to surpass Flareon (near guaranteed with early game Starly etc) and 92 speed EVs to surpass Houndoom (tough but doable), assuming a 31 speed EV to start.

Fair to assume you'll beat Flareon with a +spe nature but not Houndoom, given less than perfect IVs.
 
Not that speed really matters for Torterra in the matchup against Flint. It can sweep with rock polish anyway, so the more interesting question is if Torterra can consistently survive Houndoom's flamethrower.
 
Texas Cloverleaf said:
View attachment 349716

Just as supplemental info there, you need 32 speed EVs to surpass Flareon (near guaranteed with early game Starly etc) and 92 speed EVs to surpass Houndoom (tough but doable), assuming a 31 speed EV to start.

Fair to assume you'll beat Flareon with a +spe nature but not Houndoom, given less than perfect IVs.
Click to expand...
My Torterra was at level 55, not 52. I also fed it 10 carbos before reaching Canalave City, so it definitely had more than 100 speed EVs when battling Flint.
Magnus0 said:
Not that speed really matters for Torterra in the matchup against Flint. It can sweep with rock polish anyway, so the more interesting question is if Torterra can consistently survive Houndoom's flamethrower.
Click to expand...
Lvl 52 0 SpA Houndoom Flamethrower vs. Lvl 55 80 HP / 80 SpD Torterra: 122-146 (64.5 - 77.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
 
sumwun said:
:torterra::floatzel::rampardos::espeon:
Torterra: It can win the 1v1 against Houndoom, Gyarados, or Honchkrow, but Cyrus has too many moves that are both special and super effective and can easily prevent Torterra from sweeping.

Floatzel: It can outspeed and OHKO Houndoom and then defeat Weavile or both Crobat and Honchkrow.

Rampardos: Setting up on Houndoom lets Gyarados intimidate Rampardos, survive a rock slide, use waterfall, and OHKO. Setting up on Gyarados lets it outspeed, use waterfall, and OHKO. Rampardos can set up on Honchkrow and then defeat both Crobat and Weavile.

Espeon: It can win the 1v1 against Gyarados or Crobat, but not both.

Torterra @ Sitrus berry
Level: 49
- synthesis
- curse
- earthquake
- wood hammer

Floatzel @ choice specs
Level: 48
- focus blast
- surf
- ice beam
- crunch

Rampardos @ expert belt
Level: 47
- rock polish
- fire punch
- earthquake
- rock slide

Espeon @ choice specs
Level: 47
- psychic
- shadow ball
- grass knot
- growl
Torterra: It easily sets up curse against Jolteon, heals off all damage with synthesis, and OHKOs all the opponents.

Floatzel: It cannot OHKO anything, so it can 1v1 Jolteon, Raichu, or Luxray, but cannot defeat any 2 of them.

Rampardos: After using rock polish, Rampardos outspeeds and OHKOs everything except Luxray, which it still 2HKOs pretty easily.

Espeon: It outspeeds and OHKOs everything.

Giratina: It resists most of Volkner's attacks. As long as Jolteon does not use thunder wave, Giratina can survive every attack, use shadow force or dragon claw, and eventually win.

Torterra @ expert belt
Level: 52
- synthesis
- curse
- earthquake
- wood hammer

Floatzel @ choice specs
Level: 51
- focus blast
- surf
- ice beam
- crunch

Rampardos @ Cheri berry
Level: 51
- rock polish
- fire punch
- earthquake
- rock slide

Espeon @ choice specs
Level: 51
- psychic
- shadow ball
- grass knot
- growl

Giratina @ Sitrus berry
Level: 48
- thunderbolt
- ancient power
- dragon claw
- shadow force
Torterra: It can 1v1 any of the rival's Pokemon. Unfortunately, his Infernape knows flamethrower this time, which means it can stop Torterra's sweep regardless of how many curses Torterra can set up.

Floatzel: It can 1v1 any of the rival's Pokemon. With splash plate, Floatzel can't OHKO Roserade. With choice specs, it can't OHKO Heracross or Floatzel. Either way, Floatzel cannot sweep.

Rampardos: After using one rock polish, Rampardos outspeeds everything and OHKOs everything except Snorlax, which Rampardos can still 2HKO pretty easily.

Espeon: It outspeeds everything and OHKOs everything except Snorlax, which Espeon can still 2HKO pretty easily.

Giratina: It can safely use charge beam against Staraptor and Floatzel. This makes Giratina strong enough to defeat the rival's entire team before fainting.

Torterra @ expert belt
Level: 53
- stone edge
- swords dance
- earthquake
- wood hammer

Floatzel @ splash plate
Level: 53
- focus blast
- surf
- ice beam
- rain dance

Rampardos @ expert belt
Level: 53
- rock polish
- fire punch
- earthquake
- rock slide

Espeon @ choice specs
Level: 52
- psychic
- shadow ball
- grass knot
- growl

Giratina @ Sitrus berry
Level: 50
- shadow force
- charge beam
- thunderbolt
- dragon pulse
Aaron
Torterra: Stone edge has a 60% chance of OHKOing Yanmega after one double team. If it succeeds, then Aaron sends out Vespiquen, which kindly uses defend order as Torterra sets up swords dance. Torterra then outspeeds and OHKOs Vespiquen and Scizor, survives Heracross's megahorn, and OHKOs Heracross. Drapion stops Torterra from completely soloing this battle.

Floatzel: Heracross and Scizor can both survive Floatzel's rain-boosted surf and OHKO it. Floatzel can sweep the other 3 Pokemon.

Rampardos: Heracross survives Rampardos's expert belt-boosted fire punch and OHKOs with close combat. Rampardos can set up on Yanmega and Vespiquen and sweep the other 4 Pokemon, though.

Espeon: It outspeeds and OHKOs Yanmega and Heracross. Espeon cannot win the 1v1 against any of the other 3.

Giratina: It can occasionally sweep, but only if charge beam hits Yanmega after Yanmega uses double team, charge beam raises special attack enough times, air slash doesn't make Giratina flinch too much, and Drapion's ice fang doesn't critical hit or freeze.

Bertha
Torterra: It easily uses curse against Whiscash. Torterra can then sweep if Gliscor's ice fang doesn't freeze.

Floatzel: It outspeeds everything and OHKOs everything except Whiscash, which Floatzel can still 2HKO very easily.

Rampardos: It can 1v1 Whiscash and nothing else.

Espeon: It outspeeds and OHKOs everything.

Giratina: It can defeat both Whiscash and Golem but cannot win the 1v1 against anything else.

Flint
Torterra: It outspeeds and OHKOs Houndoom and Flareon and can win the 1v1 against either Rapidash or Infernape.

Floatzel: It outspeeds everything and OHKOs everything except Magmortar when holding choice specs. Floatzel's surf can OHKO Magmortar only when boosted by both rain and a splash plate.

Rampardos: After one rock polish, Rampardos outspeeds and OHKOs everything. However, Infernape and Flareon use priority attacks, so Rampardos can sweep only 4 of Flint's Pokemon.

Espeon: It loses the 1v1 against Houndoom and Magmortar, but Espeon can sweep the other 3 Pokemon.

Giratina: It cannot win the 1v1 against Houndoom regardless of whether Giratina just spams dragon pulse or tries to set up. Giratina needs to hold a Rawst berry to not get burned, and the lack of Sitrus berry lets it sweep only 3 Pokemon.

Lucian
Torterra: Synthesis lets Torterra heal most of the damage from Mr. Mime, Espeon, and Bronzong and defeat those 3. Then Torterra loses more than half its HP from Alakazam's psychic and OHKOs Alakazam. Gallade finishes off Torterra.

Floatzel: It can defeat both Mr. Mime and Bronzong and nothing else.

Rampardos: Bronzong and Gallade both survive Rampardos's earthquake and 2HKO Rampardos, so Rampardos can defeat only Mr. Mime and Bronzong before Gallade stops the sweep.

Espeon: It outspeeds and OHKOs Mr. Mime and can then 1v1 one of Espeon, Alakazam, or Gallade. Espeon loses to Bronzong.

Giratina: It can solo only if the damage rolls are lucky.

Cynthia
Torterra: It can defeat Roserade or both Spiritomb and Lucario.

Floatzel: It can defeat Spiritomb or Lucario.

Rampardos: It can defeat Spiritomb.

Espeon: It can defeat Spiritomb, Roserade, Togekiss, or Milotic but cannot defeat any 2 of them.

Giratina: It can defeat Roserade or sometimes defeat Togekiss if it gets lucky with air slash and charge beam.

Torterra @ soft sand/Sitrus berry
Level: 53 to 55
- stone edge/synthesis
- swords dance/curse
- earthquake
- wood hammer

Floatzel @ choice specs/splash plate
Level: 53 to 54
- focus blast
- surf
- ice beam
- rain dance

Rampardos @ expert belt/soft sand
Level: 53 to 55
- rock polish
- fire punch
- earthquake
- rock slide/stone edge

Espeon @ choice specs
Level: 53 to 54
- psychic
- shadow ball
- grass knot
- growl

Giratina @ Sitrus berry/spell tag/Rawst berry
Level: 50
- shadow force
- charge beam
- thunderbolt
- dragon pulse
View attachment 349081
:torterra::floatzel::rampardos::espeon::giratina:
Based on how often Torterra was able to solo strong opponents, it's definitely better than a majority of the stuff in A tier. I still don't really know whether it's good enough for S. I'll just leave my logs here and let you guys decide.

Rampardos to B. I'm probably the third or fourth person to say that Rampardos definitely does not belong in A. Thanks to its low speed, defenses, and many weaknesses, Rampardos is mostly just a waste of experience until it learns rock polish and the game is already more than halfway over. It does sweep some teams after learning rock polish, but A tier things should be able to achieve this without being useless against 4 gym leaders.

Espeon to A. Evolution and shallow movepool were probably the original reason Espeon was in B, but this run clearly showed that neither hurts Espeon very much when it has 130 base special attack (and can usually move first, unlike Rampardos). Even if most people evolve Espeon after battling Maylene, its uselessness against 2 gym leaders is still significantly less than Espeon's great or perfect matchups. Shallow movepool and psychic-resistant opponents were not enough to stop Espeon from sweeping Byron and doing pretty well against Cyrus at his HQ, and this is really a problem only in Cyrus's last battle.

Floatzel and Giratina can stay in A.

I think I'll use Empoleon, Gliscor, Jolteon, Gallade, and Azelf next time. Anyone want me to use something different?
Click to expand...

I'm curious as to why you concluded on Giratina for A. From memory, it didn't have the oomph I was expecting from a legendary compared to Dialga and Palkia in Diamond and Pearl respectively. Though there could be something I'm completely overlooking. I can understand why Floatzel is where it is though.
 
LordDirtyO said:
I'm curious as to why you concluded on Giratina for A. From memory, it didn't have the oomph I was expecting from a legendary compared to Dialga and Palkia in Diamond and Pearl respectively. Though there could be something I'm completely overlooking. I can understand why Floatzel is where it is though.
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After you catch it, Giratina is useful in every battle except Bertha and Cynthia. How is that not enough for A? Just because Giratina is a bit worse than another A tier Pokemon doesn't mean it has to be a whole tier lower.
 
sumwun said:
After you catch it, Giratina is useful in every battle except Bertha and Cynthia. How is that not enough for A? Just because Giratina is a bit worse than another A tier Pokemon doesn't mean it has to be a whole tier lower.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the clarification. Looks like I misremembered its merits against the late-game fights. Compared to a lot other Pokemon, 100 in both offenses is actually pretty good. My memory might have also been mixing it up Uxie, who is a tanky Pokemon that doesn't really deal much in the way of damage. Don't worry, I wasn't doubting you completely. I just wanted a bit of clarity.
 
A'ight, first things first. I'm sorry. I messed up.

IRL stuff happened and quite frankly, I didn't have time to even log in and check the forums for a solid 2 months at least. The only reason I'm even here rn is that I skipped college today to recover from my vaccine shot.

With that out of the way, Magnus0 should probably be in charge of the discussion here. I didn't catch up yet, literally just logged in, saw sumwun 's mention, and clicked straight to it.

If you need me to update the list in the OP, I'll gladly do it, no problem. Just compile the changes in a single post and @ me on the Discord server and here so I get a notification on my phone because of Discord and sneak in some time to make the edits.

I definitely don't have the free time to test things as thoroughly as I wanted anymore, and honestly, it pisses me off, but them's the breaks. Adulthood is like that.

Wish the best for y'all.

See ya!
 
Just finished a monotype dark run of platinum and thought I’d leave some thoughts. I used a stunky and murkrow as “starters” since they can’t be caught in platinum, so I won’t cover them. The four others I used were Umbreon, Spiritomb, Houndoom and Weavile.

Umbreon: Umbreon can technically be gotten before Fantina, but the amount of biking back and forth for that seems way to excessive. Mine evolved right before Wake, which was fine as Maylene isn’t a good matchup anyway. Umbreon is extremely bulky, but it’s damage output, even with STAB bite is pretty bad. It’ll win most 1v1’s due to this bulk, but isn’t quick at all. Dig as its main coverage is ok too, as it allows it to hit steel types but even than it’s a slow process. I was able to 1v1 Byron’s Bastiodon and Magneton. Feint attack is also very nice for Candice’s Froslass who spams double team with snow cloak. From here on out I just ran toxic/protect/dig/payback and basically used Umbreon as fail safe against problematic pokes that weren’t fighting type. Some big contributions were 1v1ing Electivire and in the e4 at lvl 55 being able to just barely stomach 2 eqs from garchomp and stall it out with toxic (using 2 potions since garchomp got full restored once). Umbreon is currently in E right now, but I wonder if it is more deserving of D. After Wake it can handle pretty much any 1v1 fight but the slowness in which it does it, and being generally slow in even random trainer fights is a boon.

Spiritomb: This is a weird one, as it’s basically a trade pokemon since you need 2 DS’s to get it, and the whole process took me about 30 minutes, but once you do it’s a guaranteed encounter. Spiritomb is basically good to use right away to as it comes at lvl 25 with usefull moves. Plus, the next gym is Maylene which can be dealt with Hypnosis into dream eater on machoke, ominous wind on meditite, and if you can hit hypnosis, you can beat Lucario, metal claw was a 3hko. Spiritomb can contribute against wake with shockwave just barely 2hkoing gyarados, but it can 2hko in return if it goes for two waterfalls. From here spiritomb is solid against the random trainers, but its low speed starts to get annoying as you are likely taking some damage every battle, unless you can Ohko with sucker punch. Spiritomb does stone wall almost all the fighting and psychics you run into though which is nice. My final moveset ended up being Sucker punch/Psychic/Shadowball/Shockwave, but there are a couple other options like water pulse for rock/ground types and nasty plot, but spiritomb is just too slow to sweep. In the e4 spiritomb can single handily deal with Lucian’s whole team, but potions will be required as you’ll take some damage vs most of the mons. Depending on lvl too, gallade can live two shadowballs with sitrus and 2hko you with stone edge if they land/crit. I think E is too low for spiritomb as it’s very strong when you first get it and I felt it was never really useless, but you’ll be healing a fair bit later in the game which makes me think D is a better rank for it. Unless we are really punishing it for the 30-minute set-up to get it, but at the same time it’s technically a guaranteed encounter.

Houndoom: I don’t have a ton to add about Houndoom, I think B is a solid ranking for it. Evolves right away and can learn Fire blast right away, but not great for the next two gyms. Though I did use sunny day and solarbeam for Wake, which allows it to kill the quag and almost kill floatzel before dying. Once you get surf scoop flamethrower and with a choice specs it’s mostly all you are spamming for the next part of the game, killing Byron’s whole gym bar Bastiodon as I didn’t try it there, but I don’t know if stone edge would have killed. Candice is a sweep bar misses on froslass (don’t know about piloswine, didn’t use it because worried about thickfat). Finally getting dark pulse in victory road is nice but bite was generally fine for all the psychics up til then, and Houndoom can crush Aaron, if you manage to get a sunny day up helps with Bertha, and some of Lucian (Gallade is a no go).

Weavile: You can get sneasel right before Candice, however it is a bit under levelled so you probably won’t be using it much. Mine did manage to KO the other sneasel with brick break. You then can get the Razor Claw from the Galactic Building and evolve to Weavile. Sneasel/Weavile don’t learn a ton of great moves so from here I needed to go to the move relearner for night slash and had enough shards for ice punch. Weavile is a really solid route cleaner since it has solid coverage, is fairly strong and outspeeds almost everything. It is also good against Cyrus Ohkoing Honchcrow, Crobat and weavile (if you don’t get KOed back first). For the e4 it can pick off various members on Aaron’s team, Bertha’s team (avoid flint), and Lucian’s team (alakazam outsped my weavile) and Cynthia’s team. My weavile unfortunately missed the Ohko on Garchomp by a sliver. Personally, I found Weavile more of a C rank pokemon than a B rank one just due to the fact it misses a large portion of the game, and the low BP of it’s moves sometimes let it down. However, I realize I didn’t pick up the Sword Dance tm for it, which would probably have allowed it to sweep certain e4 members such as Bertha and maybe even Cynthia, but at the same time Weavile was frail enough where I question if I could get that SD up. Curious for people who have used weavile what they think.
 
pahgawk3 said:
Just finished a monotype dark run of platinum and thought I’d leave some thoughts. I used a stunky and murkrow as “starters” since they can’t be caught in platinum, so I won’t cover them. The four others I used were Umbreon, Spiritomb, Houndoom and Weavile.

Umbreon: Umbreon can technically be gotten before Fantina, but the amount of biking back and forth for that seems way to excessive. Mine evolved right before Wake, which was fine as Maylene isn’t a good matchup anyway. Umbreon is extremely bulky, but it’s damage output, even with STAB bite is pretty bad. It’ll win most 1v1’s due to this bulk, but isn’t quick at all. Dig as its main coverage is ok too, as it allows it to hit steel types but even than it’s a slow process. I was able to 1v1 Byron’s Bastiodon and Magneton. Feint attack is also very nice for Candice’s Froslass who spams double team with snow cloak. From here on out I just ran toxic/protect/dig/payback and basically used Umbreon as fail safe against problematic pokes that weren’t fighting type. Some big contributions were 1v1ing Electivire and in the e4 at lvl 55 being able to just barely stomach 2 eqs from garchomp and stall it out with toxic (using 2 potions since garchomp got full restored once). Umbreon is currently in E right now, but I wonder if it is more deserving of D. After Wake it can handle pretty much any 1v1 fight but the slowness in which it does it, and being generally slow in even random trainer fights is a boon.

Spiritomb: This is a weird one, as it’s basically a trade pokemon since you need 2 DS’s to get it, and the whole process took me about 30 minutes, but once you do it’s a guaranteed encounter. Spiritomb is basically good to use right away to as it comes at lvl 25 with usefull moves. Plus, the next gym is Maylene which can be dealt with Hypnosis into dream eater on machoke, ominous wind on meditite, and if you can hit hypnosis, you can beat Lucario, metal claw was a 3hko. Spiritomb can contribute against wake with shockwave just barely 2hkoing gyarados, but it can 2hko in return if it goes for two waterfalls. From here spiritomb is solid against the random trainers, but its low speed starts to get annoying as you are likely taking some damage every battle, unless you can Ohko with sucker punch. Spiritomb does stone wall almost all the fighting and psychics you run into though which is nice. My final moveset ended up being Sucker punch/Psychic/Shadowball/Shockwave, but there are a couple other options like water pulse for rock/ground types and nasty plot, but spiritomb is just too slow to sweep. In the e4 spiritomb can single handily deal with Lucian’s whole team, but potions will be required as you’ll take some damage vs most of the mons. Depending on lvl too, gallade can live two shadowballs with sitrus and 2hko you with stone edge if they land/crit. I think E is too low for spiritomb as it’s very strong when you first get it and I felt it was never really useless, but you’ll be healing a fair bit later in the game which makes me think D is a better rank for it. Unless we are really punishing it for the 30-minute set-up to get it, but at the same time it’s technically a guaranteed encounter.

Houndoom: I don’t have a ton to add about Houndoom, I think B is a solid ranking for it. Evolves right away and can learn Fire blast right away, but not great for the next two gyms. Though I did use sunny day and solarbeam for Wake, which allows it to kill the quag and almost kill floatzel before dying. Once you get surf scoop flamethrower and with a choice specs it’s mostly all you are spamming for the next part of the game, killing Byron’s whole gym bar Bastiodon as I didn’t try it there, but I don’t know if stone edge would have killed. Candice is a sweep bar misses on froslass (don’t know about piloswine, didn’t use it because worried about thickfat). Finally getting dark pulse in victory road is nice but bite was generally fine for all the psychics up til then, and Houndoom can crush Aaron, if you manage to get a sunny day up helps with Bertha, and some of Lucian (Gallade is a no go).

Weavile: You can get sneasel right before Candice, however it is a bit under levelled so you probably won’t be using it much. Mine did manage to KO the other sneasel with brick break. You then can get the Razor Claw from the Galactic Building and evolve to Weavile. Sneasel/Weavile don’t learn a ton of great moves so from here I needed to go to the move relearner for night slash and had enough shards for ice punch. Weavile is a really solid route cleaner since it has solid coverage, is fairly strong and outspeeds almost everything. It is also good against Cyrus Ohkoing Honchcrow, Crobat and weavile (if you don’t get KOed back first). For the e4 it can pick off various members on Aaron’s team, Bertha’s team (avoid flint), and Lucian’s team (alakazam outsped my weavile) and Cynthia’s team. My weavile unfortunately missed the Ohko on Garchomp by a sliver. Personally, I found Weavile more of a C rank pokemon than a B rank one just due to the fact it misses a large portion of the game, and the low BP of it’s moves sometimes let it down. However, I realize I didn’t pick up the Sword Dance tm for it, which would probably have allowed it to sweep certain e4 members such as Bertha and maybe even Cynthia, but at the same time Weavile was frail enough where I question if I could get that SD up. Curious for people who have used weavile what they think.
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thank you for the contribution :0

Umbreon and Spiritomb are somewhat similar, as both are slow and bulky. I think Spiritomb makes a much better case for D though, because it has a significantly better offensive presence. Not only does it have better attack and special attack, it also has stronger moves and better type coverage. I've never used it myself because of the wonky encounter method. 30 minutes for a guaranteed encounter is acceptable for a D tier, though, at least in my opinion. After all, Spiritomb comes at level 25 with a full kit consisting of dual STABs and hypnosis + dream eater, so it doesn't need any cathing up at all. As for Umbreon, it might be bulky but it's just so weak and it has bad coverage. Maybe if there was a way to consistently evolve it before Fantina, it could rise to D, because Fantina is a difficult matchup. Otherwise, I think E fits Umbreon better.

Agree with Houndoom. It's a solid pokemon, but it comes rather late and it can have some movepool issues before getting flamethrower. B fits it perfectly.

I personally have used Weavile as well, and it felt more like a B to me. I think swords dance really is the difference here, as it allows Weavile to sweep some fights it otherwise can't. Then again, Weavile is pretty high maintenance, requiring shards for ice punch, a heart scale for night slash, a razor claw and a swords dance tm to function optimally, so I can see the argument for C as well. I think we need some more tests on this Pokemon.
 
Magnus0 said:
thank you for the contribution :0

Umbreon and Spiritomb are somewhat similar, as both are slow and bulky. I think Spiritomb makes a much better case for D though, because it has a significantly better offensive presence. Not only does it have better attack and special attack, it also has stronger moves and better type coverage. I've never used it myself because of the wonky encounter method. 30 minutes for a guaranteed encounter is acceptable for a D tier, though, at least in my opinion. After all, Spiritomb comes at level 25 with a full kit consisting of dual STABs and hypnosis + dream eater, so it doesn't need any cathing up at all. As for Umbreon, it might be bulky but it's just so weak and it has bad coverage. Maybe if there was a way to consistently evolve it before Fantina, it could rise to D, because Fantina is a difficult matchup. Otherwise, I think E fits Umbreon better.

Agree with Houndoom. It's a solid pokemon, but it comes rather late and it can have some movepool issues before getting flamethrower. B fits it perfectly.

I personally have used Weavile as well, and it felt more like a B to me. I think swords dance really is the difference here, as it allows Weavile to sweep some fights it otherwise can't. Then again, Weavile is pretty high maintenance, requiring shards for ice punch, a heart scale for night slash, a razor claw and a swords dance tm to function optimally, so I can see the argument for C as well. I think we need some more tests on this Pokemon.
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Ya I wasn't sure about Umbreon, and realistically for a casual and efficient run it just did things a bit too slowly for most the game. I am fine with E but thought I'd float the idea out and see if other people had experience. The last game I played was Ultra Sun, where the boss battles (totems) are quite difficult and I think more of an emphasis on just getting the battle won is made in tiering. However, in Platinum, and really most of the rest of the pokemon games, you would generally want something that isn't going to take multiple turns to take out every mon.

Adding to Weavile too, I think it is a really good mon, but there is an initial investment like you mentioned. I don't think it is too bad though as really with just some use of the itemfinder throughout your playthrough you should have most the items you need. My main reason I floated the idea for C out was it just comes so late. It's really only going to contribute to team galactic arc, a 1v1 in Volkner's gym and e4. But seeing how things like giratina and azelf are ranked so high, maybe it would make sense to keep weavile in B as it is very solid in the late game.
 
If we’re talking about moving Spiritomb up a rank, is there any hope for Heracross moving up? You could feasibly get one as soon as Floraroma, and while it’s a Honey Tree Pokémon, it is bonkers good, especially at that point in time:
-125 base Atk and 85 base Spe is absolutely nothing to sneeze at, and just absurd for before Eterna, and it basically never falls off at any point
-It gets super-effective coverage against Gardenia (with Aerial Ace), Fantina (with Night Slash (DP)/Thief (Pt)), Maylene’s Lucario, Bryon, and Candice, as well as Aaron (with Rock Slide/Stone Edge), some of Bertha, Lucien if you feel gutsy enough (with Night Slash, or Fury Cutter/Megahorn if you happened to learn it) and a good chunk of Cynthia’s team (specifically Roserade and Lucario, and maybe Togekiss in Pt if you’re feeling lucky/faster), plus it can serve as a good clutch against Mars’s Purugly
-Once you actually get one in a Honey Tree it’s easy enough to reset for a good nature (then again that’s the case for all Honey Tree Pokémon)
Plus if you’re really itching for Bug-type coverage before Lv. 55 it learns Fury Cutter through the shard move tutor in Platinum, which can have a good snowballing effect, tho you’re likely gonna mostly be using its Fighting coverage. I will admit I’m a bit biased since I used one in my Diamond playthrough (and I caught it while I was recovering from wisdom teeth surgery, so I’m sentimental towards it... plus it’s a Jolly nature), but I believe it’s actual properties make it better than F-tier (which I feel is due to it’s Honey Tree-exclusive status) and worth trying to find.
 
Scorpio said:
If we’re talking about moving Spiritomb up a rank, is there any hope for Heracross moving up? You could feasibly get one as soon as Floraroma, and while it’s a Honey Tree Pokémon, it is bonkers good, especially at that point in time:
-125 base Atk and 85 base Spe is absolutely nothing to sneeze at, and just absurd for before Eterna, and it basically never falls off at any point
-It gets super-effective coverage against Gardenia (with Aerial Ace), Fantina (with Night Slash (DP)/Thief (Pt)), Maylene’s Lucario, Bryon, and Candice, as well as Aaron (with Rock Slide/Stone Edge), some of Bertha, Lucien if you feel gutsy enough (with Night Slash, or Fury Cutter/Megahorn if you happened to learn it) and a good chunk of Cynthia’s team (specifically Roserade and Lucario, and maybe Togekiss in Pt if you’re feeling lucky/faster), plus it can serve as a good clutch against Mars’s Purugly
-Once you actually get one in a Honey Tree it’s easy enough to reset for a good nature (then again that’s the case for all Honey Tree Pokémon)
Plus if you’re really itching for Bug-type coverage before Lv. 55 it learns Fury Cutter through the shard move tutor in Platinum, which can have a good snowballing effect, tho you’re likely gonna mostly be using its Fighting coverage. I will admit I’m a bit biased since I used one in my Diamond playthrough (and I caught it while I was recovering from wisdom teeth surgery, so I’m sentimental towards it... plus it’s a Jolly nature), but I believe it’s actual properties make it better than F-tier (which I feel is due to it’s Honey Tree-exclusive status) and worth trying to find.
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The issue with Heracross is that is better to get it off a Munchlax Tree which only four exist in a file at a given time. These trees can also be post game or incredibly late that Heracross would need to play catch up.

For reference, Honey Trees are divided into 3 groups. Group A, Group B, and Group C (Group C ONLY has Munchlax in it). The 17 Non Munchlax trees pull from Group A 70% of the time while they pull from Group B 20% (This is Heracross’s group). The remaining 10% is a No Encounter. Heracross himself has a 5% chance of showing up. This means you’d need to get the 20% Group B and a 5% encounter. That’s.....very bad.

Now for the Munchlax Trees it’s a bit better. These trees pull from Group A 20% of the time while they pull from Group B 70% of the time. Group C is pulled 1% of the time if you were wondering (9% No Encounter). Unfortunately, Heracross is still stuck at a 5% Encounter Rate but it’s a lot more feasible to get one from one of the 4 trees.

Now the next issue. Heracross will be level 5 minimum to a maximum of 15. Whenever you get him, wherever you get him, he’s gonna be catching up regardless. So with all the investment, it would be best he stayed in the lowest tier possible.
 
Turdterra said:
The issue with Heracross is that is better to get it off a Munchlax Tree which only four exist in a file at a given time. These trees can also be post game or incredibly late that Heracross would need to play catch up.

For reference, Honey Trees are divided into 3 groups. Group A, Group B, and Group C (Group C ONLY has Munchlax in it). The 17 Non Munchlax trees pull from Group A 70% of the time while they pull from Group B 20% (This is Heracross’s group). The remaining 10% is a No Encounter. Heracross himself has a 5% chance of showing up. This means you’d need to get the 20% Group B and a 5% encounter. That’s.....very bad.

Now for the Munchlax Trees it’s a bit better. These trees pull from Group A 20% of the time while they pull from Group B 70% of the time. Group C is pulled 1% of the time if you were wondering (9% No Encounter). Unfortunately, Heracross is still stuck at a 5% Encounter Rate but it’s a lot more feasible to get one from one of the 4 trees.

Now the next issue. Heracross will be level 5 minimum to a maximum of 15. Whenever you get him, wherever you get him, he’s gonna be catching up regardless. So with all the investment, it would be best he stayed in the lowest tier possible.
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Disappointing, but I’m not gonna argue against that. I figure there’s no hope for Aipom (good Attack and Speed, but only a little more common than Heracross is) or Combee (good stats as a Vespiquen, but you’re stuck with Combee for a while, plus having to reset for a female could be tedious) either, or any other Honey Tree-exclusive Pokémon for that matter.

If I don’t end up doing Heracross’s write-up myself, I suggest that whoever does be sure to emphasize that its garbage availability is the sole reason it’s F-tier instead of, say, A or B.
 
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Scorpio said:
Disappointing, but I’m not gonna argue against that. I figure there’s no hope for Aipom (good Attack and Speed, but only a little more common than Heracross is) or Combee (good stats as a Vespiquen, but you’re stuck with Combee for a while, plus having to reset for a female could be tedious) either, or any other Honey Tree-exclusive Pokémon for that matter.

If I don’t end up doing Heracross’s write-up myself, I suggest that whoever does be sure to emphasize that its garbage availability is the sole reason it’s F-tier instead of, say, A or B.
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Actually. Combee from what I know can make it to D. It’s not hard to really get one and Vespiquen more or less is able to break out of E.
 
To kinda give Vespiqueen a push, I have used it before and it's actually decent. Early bug bite, power gem when you evolve and solid bulk are pretty good. The lack of speed later on is annoying and any rock moves are a no go, but can generally contribute for most major battles. I can see Combee to D a real possibility.
 
I think Glaceon is being underrated. I've used it in several Platinum playthroughs and wrote about it here.

The Eevee stage is not as bad as people think. Adaptability Eevee's Secret Power hits almost as hard as Leafeon's Razor Leaf, plus it has a 30% chance of a generally very beneficial side effect. Eevee's Quick Attack also benefits from Adaptability and can alleviate its lower Speed in some situations. Eevee's a decent candidate for the Dig and Shadow Ball TMs (the latter of which it uses well as Glaceon) so it has the tools it needs to get you through to the Glaceon stage.

Once you get Glaceon around level 40 (with a full team of six) it completely outclasses Leafeon and Flareon. STAB Ice Beam from 130 Special Attack is much better than whatever the other two Eeveelutions bring to the table. Icy Wind is also a very underrated move. Glaceon being a terrific counter for Cynthia's Garchomp can't be overstated. It requires no external support in the form of screens, stat modifiers, Trick Room, etc. to take out that Garchomp, which very few other Pokémon can do.

On the other hand, Leafeon can't even get Razor Leaf until you re-learn it with a Heart Scale. I've also written here about my experience with Tangrowth in Platinum, which speaks to pretty mediocre Grass type matchups in the latter part of this game. And Leafeon is considerably worse than Tangrowth, whereas at least Tangrowth is a SunnyBeamer with solid special attack and has Giga Drain to replenish chip damage along routes. Leafeon is an exclusively physical attacking Grass type who is stuck with Razor Leaf as its best STAB until well into post game.

Flareon is not that much better. Its only Fire STAB for a while is Ember, which you also need a Heart Scale to re-learn. I suppose you can teach it Fire Blast from the Veilstone Store TM, but it has accuracy and PP issues while still running off its lower Special Attack. It doesn't get a physical Fire STAB until Fire Fang at level 43, by which point you could have a Glaceon whose Ice Beam hits almost 50% harder. Flareon's critical matchups also aren't that great. It doesn't win anything against Cyrus other than Weavile, for which it's a shaky check since it'll get out sped and hit by Night Slash on its low physical Defense. It does beat Cynthia's Roserade but there are several Pokémon that can do that. Glaceon winning the Garchomp matchup is far more valuable in my opinion.

If I were to rank the Eeveelutions' performances in this game from worst to best I would say: Umbreon -> Leafeon -> Flareon -> Glaceon -> Espeon -> Vaporeon -> Jolteon. I don't want to advocate for anything drastic but I would at least put my suggestion in for Glaceon as C tier alongside its brothers Flareon and Leafeon.

I suppose tangentially I could also suggest Tangela as C tier. I do not see the case for Leafeon being ranked above Tangela.
 
I wasn't planning on posting here, but I want to talk about my most recent playthrough of Platinum as well. My team was Drifblim, Lumineon, Toxicroak, Glaceon, Wormadam, and Chatot. I consulted with this thread about halfway through my playthrough and was not surprised to see my entire team in the lower tiers: it really is that bad.

Now, since I didn't properly notate how my Pokemon did in each match up, this won't be as in-depth as some other posts in this thread.

I wanna talk about Chatot first. I did the trade Chatot in Eterna, so I was actively using it and Drifloon early game (I used Chimchar to blitz through the early stages of the game). Chatot has a favourable match up against Gardenia, and that was honestly the only battle I found it useful in. This thing is only usable insofar as it gets the boosted EXP. Otherwise, I found it easily the worst member of my team.

Which makes me want to turn to Wormadam. I explicitly wanted trash cloak, and while it was still awful (its damage output is abysmal all game), it wasn't as bad as I expected. Metal sound was good to weaken enemies, and Bug Bite is also useful utility in boss fights. Flash Cannon is nice STAB. The issue with this mon is that you want to use the EXP share to raise it, since it's not incredibly useful in battles and really only wants to fight poison, dark, and grass types that can't hit it. I utilized Stealth Rocks on it so that I could take out Aaron with ease, and that worked well. More surprisingly, it was able to 1v1 Cynthia's Spiritomb, making it more useful than Chatot on that alone. I don't know if this is enough of a niche to get it out of F-tier when you can use basically any other Pokemon in the game for a better performance, however.

I've seen Glaceon discussion here and there (like above) and I'm inclined to agree. Based on a post I read here on Smogon that Glaceon could eat any hit from Cynthia's Garchomp, I intended to use it against said Garchomp. I didn't use the Eevee all game, basically, until I hit Snowpoint where I levelled it up to 36 for Baton Pass and Ice Shard, and fed it both the Shadow Ball (Drifblim gets this at 44 naturally) and Ice Beam TMs. Choice Specs are easily accessible in Celestic Town. And aside from Flint, Glaceon basically cleaned up every enemy I put it against. It also survived any hit from Garchomp and OHKOd in return (I was level 46 at the time). Agreeing with the above that Glaceon felt pretty good and could rise to C-tier, but at the very least should be D-tier. It's late accessibility is a hindrance for sure, but it's certainly better than the other Ice-types and other garbage in E-tier.

Toxicroak is a solid C-tier mon. It has some nice match ups and a great movepool, and you can do a lot with it, but it's never going to be a superstar the way a, say, Infernape would be. I kept wishing it got a better fighting move (Revenge, Drain Punch, and Brick Break aren't the best tools, and if you go special Focus Blast is always awful). There are many mons I would rather use than this, but it's not awful. The same goes for Drifblim, who isn't great and has awful availability (seriously who came up with that?), but Ghost STAB is enough to keep it afloat the entire game. I see right now it's in D-tier while Toxicroak is C-tier, and I think this makes sense. To me, they performed similarly but Drifloon's availability hurt. In the endgame, Drifblim's poor damage output forced me into giving it Toxic and stalling out through potion usage thanks to its massive HP stat, which is another hit against it.

Finally we have Lumineon. I thought this mon would suck, I really did. Instead, it turned out to be great. I caught mine (backtracking, of course) right on my way to Pastoria, when I started to use it. It's not useful in that gym, but the Water STAB was very important for my admittedly bad team. It played similarly to Lanturn in HGSS, where I used Water Pulse/Surf with either Choice Specs or its naturally learned Rain Dance. I find its generally a good mantra that if a Water type has decent SpAtk, it's usable because Surf is just that good. It also has a very solid speed stat, letting it outspeed a lot of threatening mons. This may sound trivial for an ingame run, but I ended up so underlevlled compared to the Elite 4 and with some item usage was even able to beat them with this team. In large part that was thanks to Lumineon's Surf and Rain Dance. For me, in terms of match-ups, it beats Byron (aside from Magneton), any opposing Fire type (such as the rival's Rapidash), Bertha (both it an Glaceon could do this), and Flint. This sounds like the bare minimum for a Water type, and probably most other types would be better, but I was impressed by this fish. I'm not sure if I would advocate moving it up when it shares its placement with Tentacool and Wingull, however.

tl;dr: I used a trash ingame team and Glaceon was the only one that should move up a tier based on its performance
 
I wrote this in the previous thread (too lazy to find and redirect), but why in the good name of Satoshi Tajiri you people insist on putting Yanma on anything higher than E? I legit question if you have ever used it. Saying from experience (and openning to the possibility that I used it wrongly), the incredibly pathetic dragonfly should not be anywhere above E (hell, even F if people really think Swinub is bad). I'll use the criteria established by the OP to argue my point below:

1) Availability: Yanma is a Great Marsh mon, and that itself is bad news. Worse, it's a conditional Great Marsh mon with a flee rate of 47.1% according to Bulbapedia. While Great Marsh is somewhat mid-game (I tried to get it before Maylene), the safari-esque nature of it is extremely unappealing.

2) Typing: Bug/Flying is bad defensively. Very bad. The tons of Zubat line used by Team Galactic and weird abundance of Steel and Flying types accross the region is a chore to deal with. Offensively-wise, the STABs are not that bad, but you won't have it until VEEEEERY late unless you undergo various tedious and/or unorthodox steps that I'll explain below.

3) Stats: Trash dragonfly base form is a glass cannon that shoots a tiny amount of water. 65/45/45 at the time you get Yanma is not that good, and 65 Atk is not really enough. 75 SpA is bad, for reasons I'll go over below. What could be the saving grace of the bigger trash dragonfly, that sweet sweet 116 SpA with a not-shabby 95 Spe (which can be boosted if you opt/find one with Speed Boost), not all muscle can make a hit with a cotton ball hurt. If you want the full experience of using Yanmega, you'll have to trust that average 76 Atk, which is surprisingly enough lower than anything in its rank and above, and the tier below! 86 Def with 86 HP is nice though, I give you that. You may think yourself: "Why, I will only use Special moves, you idiot!" Well...

4) Movepool: When taking consideration how Platinum works in terms of level curve and the finishing points of the game, Yamna has to have one of the worst level up movepool and curve in the game. I will just post the screenshot of what and when it learns by level (again, thanks to Bulbapedia)

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The major difference between Yamna and Yanmega is when the latter learns Feint and Slash, the former gets Hypnosis and Wing Attack (arguably better moves).

Now, I'll be a reasonable person and expect that, by the time you reach Volkner (whose team ranges from 46-50), you'll be at least at level 45, as it was my case. In that scenario, I beg my reader to please explain, by using only level-up moves, how the hell you managed to level up that much with that atrocity without switch-training of infinite rare candies? Seriously, you get it (after the hassle at Great Marsh) at level 27-30, so Yamna by start will have Detect, Supersonic, Uproar and either Sonic Boom or Pursuit. And spamming Uproar in midgame Platinum is not the best nor brightest idea. As you reach level 33, you ditch Detect for Ancient Power and evolve your trash dragonfly. You then rush to test it out your new 60 BP, 5 PP unstabbed move, you realize how 116 SpA means squat if you have no way of using it. And then cry realizing you'll only have an usable special move at level 54 (thanks FEINT!)... unless you use that moderately adequate 76 Atk and your heart scales for Bug Bite and Night Slash. OR, if you decide to evolve it at level 43, it can have Wing Attack instead!

Now, of course it's highly unlikely that you're not gonna waste at least one TM in Yanmega, which already reminds you with the "Dumping non-renewable resources on one Pokémon is considered highly inefficient for the purposes of this list". So, what our garbage bug can learn? Long story short, the useful special moves are Hidden Power, Giga Drain, Hyper Beam, Psychic, Shadow Ball, Silver Wind and Dream Eater. Hidden Power is a gamble and relying on it says a lot about the Pokémon. Having to resort to Hyper Beam really makes me question why are you using it other than anything else. Shadow Ball is one-time only before Frontier, but if you have nothing else to use on the way to Celestic, Yanmega can use it (I saved it for my Glaceon so I have no experience with). Psychic is either too late or requires too much time/money in the Game Corner, and Dream Eater is unusable unless you evolve at level 38, in which case good luck with that consistent 60% move. Giga Drain is usefull, I guess, but I didn't use it on Yanmega (saved for other) and I suspect it has the same problems as Ancient Power. The only option left is Silver Wind, which you get relatively at the same time that you catch a Yamna at Route 212, and the route I went with. You NEED that move to even scratch enemies, and although the boost is nice (when it happens), Silver Wind + Ancient Power (if you don't use any other move) is only 10 PP, so you are good to go for 10 battles on the best case scenario. You cannot compare Yanmega with the 30 PP and 80 BP Bronzor/zong, which albeit slower will probably win on tankiness, and even a lot of D such as Marill and Tangrowth (one that should be at C but I'll go over in another time). You can go physical with Aerial Ace and lol Steel Wing, however.

So that leaves us with Move Tutors, right? Again, courtesy of Bulbapedia:

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The tutors that I cut in the image are the postgame ones, so no Signal Beam for you. If you can afford Shadow Ball, you are not using Ominous Wind. Even if you're using Shadow Ball on something else, you're not using Ominous Wind for the sheer fact that not only is another weak move with almost no PP, but the cost is too much. Unfortunately, that cost is the same reason why Air Cutter is a questionable option. Not relying on chance, you'll not have without backtracking A LOT in the game all shards required for the 55 BP move. You could soft-reset and clock manipulate at Pastoria to get all shards every day, or be lucky at Underground, but by that point you realize that raising a Yamna is quite a lot of, paraphrasing the OP, "[...] a hassle".

5) Major battles: You'll probably beat Maylene's Meditite by spamming Uproar. I did... If you go outside your way to teach Air Cutter, you might even beat Machoke! If you teach it Giga Drain then Wake's Quagsire can be manageable. Other than that, Aaron and Lucian can be a cakewalk... if you reach level 57! Don't bother with anything else unless you picked Empoleon, then Torterra is manageable with Silver Wind.

Concluding, I am yet to see anyone who used Yanmega and had a different experience from my miserable one. Trash dragonfly may be BL in the generation it was introduced, but in-game it deserves all the stinkiness that its pre-evo got since GSC. Yanma and Yanmega are horrible Pokémon and keeping them anywhere above E or even F are an insult to people that experiment with Pokémon.

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I had to make it level 57 because I was really annoyed at the lack of Bug Buzz. It was a prideful thing to do. Also I named it Episode I because "Star Wars - The Phantom Menace is the most disappointing thing since my son" (PLINKETT, Harry S.), the exact reaction I had using Yanmega. Everything else on the team except Empoleon (A), should range between B and C. And I agree with everyone that posted here that Glaceon is good, way better than where it's shoved at, and certainly MUCH, MUCH better than Yanmega.
 
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