Resource USUM AG Viability Rankings

[MZ]

Art by imas

​

Welcome to the Anything Goes Viability Ranking project. The concept of this thread is that we will organize the Pokémon into ranks, varying on how good they are within the metagame. You are encouraged to post thoughts on where each Pokémon should be ranked; however, there are a few regulations to follow:

- Nominations without context or supporting evidence will be ignored. Providing replays and usage stats are excellent ways to display your nominated Pokémon in action; although, this is not required and should not be the basis of your argument.
- Be civil when debating with other users. Nothing makes an argument seem more subjective than when insults and name-calling occurs instead of actual debate on the topic at hand. Posts that take this to the extreme will be deleted.
- Ensure any replays provided are against skilled opponents with actual teams. If your opponent has a Choice Band Shaymin-Sky, this is a clear indication that this is not the case.

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Viability Council

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Catalystic

Megazard

Pigeons

PurpleGatorade

Arushi

Skarph

past members

Dontstealmypenguin
Fardin
Thimo
Chloe
Zenithial
HunterStorm

The Pokemon in the sub-ranks are ordered in alphabetical order.

S Rank

S Rank​

Rayquaza-Mega​

​

S- Rank​

Necrozma-Ultra​

A Rank

A+ Rank​

Gengar-Mega​

Groudon-Primal​

Ho-Oh​

Marshadow​

Zygarde-Complete​

​

A Rank​

Arceus​

Arceus-Fairy​

Arceus-Ground​

Necrozma-Dusk-Mane​

Xerneas​

​

A- Rank​

Arceus-Dark​

Arceus-Poison​

Arceus-Water​

Ferrothorn​

Kyogre-Primal​

Lunala​

Yveltal​

B Rank

B+ Rank​

Arceus-Rock​

Arceus-Steel​

Celesteela​

Giratina​

Mewtwo​

Sableye-Mega​

Skarmory​

Smeargle​

Tyranitar​

​

​

B Rank​

Chansey​

Excadrill​

Gothitelle​

Lugia​

Mewtwo-Mega-Y​

Naganadel​

Vivillon​

​

​

B- Rank​

Arceus-Flying​

Arceus-Ghost​

Deoxys-Speed​

Ditto​

Kyogre​

Magearna​

Mewtwo-Mega-X​

Shuckle​

C Rank

C Rank​

Arceus-Dragon​

Arceus-Grass​

Blissey​

Deoxys-Attack​

Toxapex​

​

​

D Rank

D Rank​

Aerodactyl​

Arceus-Electric​

Dialga​

Giratina-Origin​

Gliscor​

Heatran​

Klefki​

Kyurem-White​

Muk-Alola​

Necrozma-Dawn-Wings​

Scolipede​

Shedinja​

Slowbro-Mega​

Tapu Lele​

Tyranitar-Mega​

Umbreon​

Wobbuffet​

Zekrom​

​

​

Baton Pass Rank

This rank is for Pokemon viable only on completely Baton Pass oriented teams. They are not relevant for any other strategy. Pokemon viable on Baton Pass and non-Baton Pass teams are ranked as normal above.​

• 
  Blaziken
• 
  Drifblim
• 
  Dugtrio
• 
  Eevee
• 
  Espeon
• 
  Gliscor
• 
  Krookodile
• 
  Mew
• 
  Mimikyu
• 
  Mr. Mime
• 
  Scizor
• 
  Vaporeon
• 
  Whimsicott
• 
  Zapdos
• 
  Zoroark

 

[QT]

Art by imas

Welcome to the official Anything Goes Viability Rankings. The concept of this thread is that we will organize the Pokémon in this metagame into ranks, varying on how good they are. You are encouraged to post thoughts on where each Pokémon should be ranked; however, there are a few regulations we follow:

Firstly, nominations without context or supporting evidence will be ignored. Providing replays and usage stats are excellent ways to display your nominated Pokémon in action; although, this is not required and should not be the basis of your argument.
Secondly, be civil when debating with other users. Nothing makes your argument seem more invalid than when you begin to insult another user instead of actually debating the topic at hand.
Thirdly, ensure any replays provided are against skilled opponents with actual teams. If your opponent has a Choice Specs Ho-Oh, this is a clear indication that this is not the case.

Viability Council
Chloe.
Megazard
Thimo

The Pokemon in the sub-ranks are fully ordered in alphabetical order.
~​

S Rank

S

Rayquaza-Mega​

A Rank

A+

Arceus-Ghost

Gengar-Mega

Groudon-Primal

Xerneas

Yveltal


A

Arceus

Arceus-Fairy

Arceus-Steel

Zygarde-Complete


A-

Arceus-Ground

Arceus-Water

Deoxys-Attack

Ho-Oh

Kyogre-Primal​

B Rank

B+

Arceus-Dark

Arceus-Rock

Lugia

Magearna

Mewtwo

Solgaleo


B

Arceus-Dragon

Ferrothorn

Giratina

Groudon

Sableye-Mega

Salamence-Mega


B-

Celesteela

Deoxys-Speed

Giratina-Origin

Kyogre

Lunala

Skarmory​

C Rank

C+

Arceus-Poison

Blissey

Dialga

Jirachi

Kyurem-White

Muk-Alola

Pyukumuku

Rayquaza

Scizor-Mega

Smeargle

Tapu Lele


C

Bronzong

Chansey

Clefable

Ditto

Genesect

Glalie

Klefki

Quagsire

Shaymin-Sky

Toxapex

Wobbuffet

Zekrom


C-

Blaziken

Darkrai

Excadrill

Landorus

Landorus-Therian

Lucario-Mega

Nihilego

Palkia

Pheromosa

Scolipede

Tentacruel

Tyranitar​

D Rank

%Erotic Pigeons: can we make a "thimo/chloe made us do this rank"

Aegislash

Alomomola

Amoonguss

Drifblim

Espeon

Gothitelle

Gyarados-Mega

Kartana

Shedinja

Slowbro-Mega

Whimsicott​

Nihilego to D. It's super easy to defog on unless you are fairy Arceus, and it's also setup bait and passive as all hell. It doesn't do much othr than set TSpikes, which when combined with the abundant Defog and Mega Gengar is really mediocre.
Has anyone ever used Toxapex? It just seems really bad on paper, and I'm not sure why it's ranked.
Tapu Lele to B-. Deoxys Spam is rlly good, and tapu lele is all of that. Scarf, taunt, and Nature's madness make it not dead weight itself, either, while psychic does hit decently hard.
Ekiller to A+. A is way overestimating its nerf, and it can bypass any given check/counter as easily as it did last gen. Extreme Speed is also a generic check to a lot of things, and it's way too splashable for the A Rank. It's not as good as Mega Gengar, yes, but it's close, and a cut above the A rank mons around it.

Formatting heavily based off of Minority's Ubers Version.

* First number, before the Pokémon sprite, indicates speed.
* The number after the sprite and in the parentheses, indicates the investment needed.
* "at +1", "at +2", "at -1", indicate the boost or drop in Speed that the Pokémon has.
* Comments after "//" explain how the Pokémon gets that Speed.
* If the Pokémon obtains this through a Choice Scarf or through Set-up moves, then it is not explained.

Maybe a +1 Magearna because it doesn't just heart swap on Xerneas? Like Megamence or Gyara

Mega Pokémon

Primal Pokémon

Moves:
Stealth Rock

Spikes

Toxic Spikes

Defog

Rapid Spin

Priority (not inc. Prankster)

Wish

Aromatherapy / Heal Bell

Healing Wish

Pursuit

Swords Dance

Calm Mind

Double Team / Minimize

Dragon Dance

Rock Polish

Nasty Plot

Hone Claws

Geomancy

Shell Smash

Items:
Z-Crystal

Choice Band

Choice Scarf

Choice Specs

Checks:
Arceus Checks

Arceus-Ghost Checks

Arceus-Steel Checks

Gengar-Mega Checks

Groudon-Primal Checks

Rayquaza-Mega Checks

Xerneas Checks

Yveltal Checks

Zygarde-Complete Checks

Suggested changes:
Deoxys-Attack to pursuit. It's not a meme, I swear; it forces out Mega Gengar really reliably, can KO it with pursuit, and if you're a baller can switch in with Sash while Gengar mega evolves.
Remove Regular Rayquaza from a bunch of things. I'm sure it has a niche, but it's almost certainly not a usable specs, LO, Dragon Dance, Band, and Scarf user. As a start, I would think that you would remove scarf (rlly bad) and specs (mediocre on MRay, much less here). Resources are for mons u know are good, not stuff you slap on and pray work.
Darkceus to Yveltal checks, Klefki and Nihelego out (I think we discussed why)
Pyukumuku to Xerneas checks? It checks after boosting, but not before, so idk.
Mluk isn't an arceus check, unless this is wallceus as well? (if so, there should be a whole bunch more answers)
Since when is calm mind good on sableye?
Why is there a spot for "Primal Pokemon?" There isn't a <Primal slot> to use up like there is for megas.
Why is Nihilego there its P bad.

 

[Thimo]

Nominating

C- to C+
Mega Lucario is really underrated as a Mega, and I believe it is ranked too low. It doesn't completely get outclassed by Mega Rayquaza as this defeats things like Arceus-Dark, which I believe is becoming more common, and Arceus-Fairy. Access to Priority to beat Gengar, which also is becoming more common really helps it. Resistance to Extreme Speed and Toxic are also valueble compared to Mega Rayquaza. It is somewhat deadweight against offense, but I believe Balance is becoming more and more common, something Lucario likes. It can setup on more things than we all realise and I think its ranked way too low, considering its capabilities.


Nominating

C- to C
Excadrill is underrated as a lead. With both Toxic and Rapid Spin in its arsenal it can do quite a lot. Even with the amount of Ghost Types this generation, you still force them in to spinblock which basically lets you hurt them a little, which is honestly really great for setup sweepers like Arceus and Mega Rayquaza, it also helps against Balance and Stall because with its Ability you basically have free Stealth Rock most of the time. I believe Excadrill is ranked too low, even though it isn't used a lot in the metagame, I still believe it should get ranked higher.

Speed Tiers Requests
489

(252+ at +1)
445

(252 at +1)
418

(252 at +1 // Z-Celebrate)
116

(0)
069

(0 at +1 // Z-Purify)

 

[Chloe]

Nihilego to D. It's super easy to defog on unless you are fairy Arceus, and it's also setup bait and passive as all hell. It doesn't do much othr than set TSpikes, which when combined with the abundant Defog and Mega Gengar is really mediocre.
Has anyone ever used Toxapex? It just seems really bad on paper, and I'm not sure why it's ranked.
Tapu Lele to B-. Deoxys Spam is rlly good, and tapu lele is all of that. Scarf, taunt, and Nature's madness make it not dead weight itself, either, while psychic does hit decently hard.
Ekiller to A+. A is way overestimating its nerf, and it can bypass any given check/counter as easily as it did last gen. Extreme Speed is also a generic check to a lot of things, and it's way too splashable for the A Rank. It's not as good as Mega Gengar, yes, but it's close, and a cut above the A rank mons around it.

Nihilego is also an efficient Xerneas check due to its massive SpD stat, I too would support a lowering to D rank though.
Toxapex is an effective Xerneas check and Calm Mind Arceus check to some extent due to its access to Haze and its great defensive stats, D suits it well.
I'm fine with Tapu Lele, but that's such a minimal change.
Extreme Killer really should be A+ but I'd rather have multiple people support the move first, before we go ahead with anything that high up.

Suggested changes:
Deoxys-Attack to pursuit. It's not a meme, I swear; it forces out Mega Gengar really reliably, can KO it with pursuit, and if you're a baller can switch in with Sash while Gengar mega evolves.
Remove Regular Rayquaza from a bunch of things. I'm sure it has a niche, but it's almost certainly not a usable specs, LO, Dragon Dance, Band, and Scarf user. As a start, I would think that you would remove scarf (rlly bad) and specs (mediocre on MRay, much less here). Resources are for mons u know are good, not stuff you slap on and pray work.
Darkceus to Yveltal checks, Klefki and Nihelego out (I think we discussed why)
Pyukumuku to Xerneas checks? It checks after boosting, but not before, so idk.
Mluk isn't an arceus check, unless this is wallceus as well? (if so, there should be a whole bunch more answers)
Since when is calm mind good on sableye?
Why is there a spot for "Primal Pokemon?" There isn't a <Primal slot> to use up like there is for megas.
Why is Nihilego there its P bad.

Implemented, thanks.

Nominating

C- to C+
Mega Lucario is really underrated as a Mega, and I believe it is ranked too low. It doesn't completely get outclassed by Mega Rayquaza as this defeats things like Arceus-Dark, which I believe is becoming more common, and Arceus-Fairy. Access to Priority to beat Gengar, which also is becoming more common really helps it. Resistance to Extreme Speed and Toxic are also valueble compared to Mega Rayquaza. It is somewhat deadweight against offense, but I believe Balance is becoming more and more common, something Lucario likes. It can setup on more things than we all realise and I think its ranked way too low, considering its capabilities.

Nominating

C- to C
Excadrill is underrated as a lead. With both Toxic and Rapid Spin in its arsenal it can do quite a lot. Even with the amount of Ghost Types this generation, you still force them in to spinblock which basically lets you hurt them a little, which is honestly really great for setup sweepers like Arceus and Mega Rayquaza, it also helps against Balance and Stall because with its Ability you basically have free Stealth Rock most of the time. I believe Excadrill is ranked too low, even though it isn't used a lot in the metagame, I still believe it should get ranked higher.

I have nothing beneficial to say here but I agree with both.

Speed Tiers Requests
489

(252+ at +1)
445

(252 at +1)
418

(252 at +1 // Z-Celebrate)
116

(0)
069

(0 at +1 // Z-Purify)

Implemented, thanks.

 

[HunterStorm]

Nom

Zygarde 100% A - A+
Okay, I can't say much about Zygarde's viability that hasn't already been said. It has three sets which are all capable of being solid setup sweepers (Coil glare, DD T arrows-t waves and DD outrage), and before you shit on me for mentioning dd outrage, +1 z move thousand arrows ohkos e killers, standard xern, standard p don, p ogre and close to everything uninvested and grounded. You could slap on dragonium z for the extra power and the gira OHKO (plus the outrage-free turn), but missing out on xern OHKO is a bit ehh. This set makes many of the previously viable switch ins to zyg irrelevant, as well as being one of the most relevant setup sweepers in the meta because of the amount of hits zygarde can take. It's weaknesses are rather easy to cover up with decent teaming and it gets one of the most broken pair of moves in the game. Moreover, its viability blankets over all of the relevant playstyles in the meta (Yes, zyg can fit stall, fite me). I honestly can't see any reason for this thing to not be higher, maybe S rank later once the meta settles down. I understand that A+ rank is a bit stuffed up, but this deserves to be there more than any of the others bar Yve.

 

[Funbot28]

^agree with above post btw

(let DEG's dream happen)

A+ -> S

Hunterstorm mentioned this in the AG room and I really agreed on him with this as well. Mega Gengar is insane in this iteration of Anything Goes thanks to the absence of Darkrai and Klefki that hurt its viability last generation. It also gained a buff with the whole Mega Evolution mechanic change that lets it forego Protect on non Perish Song sets, which means that Hypnosis Mega Gengar is quite powerful. With Substitute, Mega Gengar has an 84% chance to hit two Hypnosis, and can then deal heavy amounts of damage (usually 2HKOing most targets) with Hex. This is insane, as coupled with Shadow Tag, it can eliminate so many bar Arceus Dark and Ghost, Lunala and Yveltal. The Extreme Speed immunity is also great as it can revenge kill Arceus and Mega Rayquaza (who are not setup and used Dragon Ascent) with ease. Ik the nom maybe was not as valid last gen, but this gen Mega Gengar is absolutely incredible and can compete with Mega Rayquaza for the mega slot more often now imo.

Replays of HypnoGar in action:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pokebankanythinggoes-518926143
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pokebankanythinggoes-518885096

 

[MZ]

So I won't lie and say I've built very much at all (even less actually half decent things) or played as much as I should've, but I dont like how the steels are on VR. Obviously steelceus is in a different league but within B rank there's gears/solgaleo/ferro/celest and I dont like the order we have them in. Solgaleo isn't that good, it's a more effective Deo-A check and Scarf and utility attacker terrible but it's not nearly as splashable because it doesnt bring as much to the table as other steels. It doesnt have a ground immunity, cant set hazards, and gets checked by a ton of really good offensive mons. It isn't even that hard to switch into, I hope I shouldnt need to qualify that. Celesteela, on the other hand, is a mon we heavily underrated when first creating the ranks. It's incredibly annoying and blankets a ton of things like fairies, some ray sets, most arc formes, etc. It is the best groundceus counter in the game, and I don't even think it ought to be on skarmory level. Personally I'd fully swap the two with Solgaleo B+ to B- and Celesteela B- to B+, but I could see Celesteela only rising to B if people generally arent too enamored with it. However I'd definitely rate it better than Ferrothorn because of how much more effective it is at checking ray/most arc formes

To be honest I have a few more issues with B rank than this, we have gira-o and lunala with regular kyogre but regular groudon is still kinda ass and above that and more opinions on moving some stuff around wouldnt be amiss. Also I'm heavily against gengar to S, neutral leaning no on Zygarde but Gengar is just unfortunate. It really is incredible and it's a heavily underutilized poke for how good it is, but the reason for that is how much opportunity cost there is to not running ray right now. It hasn't picked up that much for a reason.

 

[HunterStorm]

Replays to support zyg A+

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pokebankanythinggoes-521441853
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pokebankanythinggoes-520420687
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pokebankanythinggoes-519981584
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pokebankanythinggoes-519279508
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pokebankanythinggoes-518757648
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pokebankubers-517630832 (IK this is Ubers, but both teams were AG viable and this has happened in AG as well)
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pokebankanythinggoes-507462073


A set which hasn't received any attention in AG is max hp-def zygarde with coil and glare. counters SD p don, sets up on e killers and just basically wrecks shit. Also, I'd post more replays but I got tired of searching.

 

[MZ]

Lunala B- to B
It's just not B- material at all, if nothing else its usage reflects that really well. It's one of the most versatile mons around with CM, Z-Hypno+CM, SubRoost, Specs, Scarf, or just utility offensive, and none of them are that bad. It's relatively hard to switch into for any team lacking a Darkceus, and it has the coverage to cripple or KO its checks with Moonblast, Toxic, etc. Shadow Shield is just amazing for helping to check pretty much whatever you want to. It definitely suffers from some poor defensive utility (doesn't resist much so you can't switch it in /that/ well) but it's never going to be useless defensively on a team while Ekiller is hanging around, not to mention Zygarde if you're running Ice Beam

Regdon B to B- (C+?)
Yes I've never liked this but also it's very hard to justify right now. Why would you want to use this? So it can lead. Or something like that. That's just not a good reason, it offers so much less than Pdon so you never want it in terms of a long-term mon, but it's not particularly scary as a lead either. It doesn't prevent Rocks or even guarantee their setup, it can just annoy you with gimmicks like rock tomb or red card. If nothing else, look at the rest of the rank. It includes things like Lunala (I hope), Dragceus, and Mega Sableye. Groudon does not belong alongside these guys.

Grassceus Unranked to D
This is Amoongus/Shedinja/Kartana level, nothing more. It just has some unique offensive presence and can be an emergency button for the Primals, it's hard to fit because lolray for sure but I think the best argument in support is this:
252 SpA Meadow Plate Arceus-Grass Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Arceus: 190-225 (42.8 - 50.7%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
This thing can really hurt standard balance cores with GK+all the crazy coverage, that's worth something. If you aren't familiar with it, just try to envision switching into Grass Knot/Fire Blast/Ice Beam/Stone Edge without a Lugia. I also ran rocks on mine because I could afford to not hit Hooh but that's probably not optimal anyway.

if anyone's paying attention I'll probably badger the council long enough to make a tiny update

 

[HunterStorm]

Lunala B- to B
It's just not B- material at all, if nothing else its usage reflects that really well. It's one of the most versatile mons around with CM, Z-Hypno+CM, SubRoost, Specs, Scarf, or just utility offensive, and none of them are that bad. It's relatively hard to switch into for any team lacking a Darkceus, and it has the coverage to cripple or KO its checks with Moonblast, Toxic, etc. Shadow Shield is just amazing for helping to check pretty much whatever you want to. It definitely suffers from some poor defensive utility (doesn't resist much so you can't switch it in /that/ well) but it's never going to be useless defensively on a team while Ekiller is hanging around, not to mention Zygarde if you're running Ice Beam

Regdon B to B- (C+?)
Yes I've never liked this but also it's very hard to justify right now. Why would you want to use this? So it can lead. Or something like that. That's just not a good reason, it offers so much less than Pdon so you never want it in terms of a long-term mon, but it's not particularly scary as a lead either. It doesn't prevent Rocks or even guarantee their setup, it can just annoy you with gimmicks like rock tomb or red card. If nothing else, look at the rest of the rank. It includes things like Lunala (I hope), Dragceus, and Mega Sableye. Groudon does not belong alongside these guys.
Grassceus Unranked to D
This is Amoongus/Shedinja/Kartana level, nothing more. It just has some unique offensive presence and can be an emergency button for the Primals, it's hard to fit because lolray for sure but I think the best argument in support is this:
252 SpA Meadow Plate Arceus-Grass Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Arceus: 190-225 (42.8 - 50.7%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
This thing can really hurt standard balance cores with GK+all the crazy coverage, that's worth something. If you aren't familiar with it, just try to envision switching into Grass Knot/Fire Blast/Ice Beam/Stone Edge without a Lugia. I also ran rocks on mine because I could afford to not hit Hooh but that's probably not optimal anyway.

if anyone's paying attention I'll probably badger the council long enough to make a tiny update

I agree with B being debatable for it, but I think you're downplaying base Don's viability a lot here. It's still one of the best leads in the game - massively underused, but brilliant. It does guarantee rocks, btw. Run groundium z/lum with max offense for the Msab OHKO/2hko (depending on whether or not you ran groundium z), furthermore, tectonic rage OHKO's pdon, ogre, non sash deo s and basically everything that isn't bulky or ground resistant. It does 70% odd on 248 HP Ceus, iirc, which makes blades + z blades a kill. Rock tomb is solid coverage for dong as it deals with Yve, Mray switchins, memebird and brings deo s within its speed range after the initial taunt and rocks (making it faster when the taunt wears off). The only way it doesn't get rocks in is jolly ogre or Yve dpulse flinch on the lead, which are not very likely outcomes. In the end, you have an option of going for dtail or roar, which is its benefit over exca (along with the massive bulk and better offensive pressure).
Missing out on mold breaker isn't an argument when you're OHKO'ing the magic bouncers. Outspeeding and OHKO'ing pdon is huge, and it generally is hard to play around as a lead. I really hope its usage is not made to be an argument here, because the AG ladder is kinda Syphillistic and it can't be helped. I honestly haven't seen a single Dragonceus on the ladder in Gen 7, but it's still very good based on what it can do. Usage has nothing to do with viability.

 

[MZ]

I agree with B being debatable for it, but I think you're downplaying base Don's viability a lot here. It's still one of the best leads in the game - massively underused, but brilliant. It does guarantee rocks, btw. Run groundium z/lum with max offense for the Msab OHKO/2hko (depending on whether or not you ran groundium z), furthermore, tectonic rage OHKO's pdon, ogre, non sash deo s and basically everything that isn't bulky or ground resistant. It does 70% odd on 248 HP Ceus, iirc, which makes blades + z blades a kill. Rock tomb is solid coverage for dong as it deals with Yve, Mray switchins, memebird and brings deo s within its speed range after the initial taunt and rocks (making it faster when the taunt wears off). The only way it doesn't get rocks in is jolly ogre or Yve dpulse flinch on the lead, which are not very likely outcomes. In the end, you have an option of going for dtail or roar, which is its benefit over exca (along with the massive bulk and better offensive pressure).
Missing out on mold breaker isn't an argument when you're OHKO'ing the magic bouncers. Outspeeding and OHKO'ing pdon is huge, and it generally is hard to play around as a lead. I really hope its usage is not made to be an argument here, because the AG ladder is kinda Syphillistic and it can't be helped. I honestly haven't seen a single Dragonceus on the ladder in Gen 7, but it's still very good based on what it can do. Usage has nothing to do with viability.

The main reason that I want to reply here (although I'll say a little more below just to cement my opinion) is to say that when I refer to usage I'm not referring to ladder and I would encourage anybody posting here to completely disregard ladder usage as well. I'm referring to what I've seen personally in roomtours, specific matches with good people, and the first couple rounds of open. None are perfect and it is subjective, but I've seen such incredibly low usage that I can't imagine it gets that much more than what I think.

So far as I can tell, its specific niche is something like "I want to get rocks with some decent offensive presence but deo-a doesnt appreciate sableye and also it doesnt need late-game utility unlike some slightly weaker arc form because I don't need to get them back up after a defog and also I have no plans to fit a pokemon that likes using z moves like an SD arc or lunala or mewtwo and also getting up rocks on max def wisp arc formes is for noobs". I stressed usage because, honestly, how often have you actually thought "yeah this mon would fit great on my team"? Last gen I accepted it because having lum was really all I needed to tolerate it. But Lum isn't really all that anymore other than surprising mega sab and frankly I don't think groundium z is any huge benefit. Red Card can at least do something if they happen to pull you out into a wincon. My instincts say it shouldnt even be above dialga, which is similar but trades having utility throughout the game for not beating groundceus, but I haven't actually used it so no comment there.
Chloe-Today at 7:29 PM
i dont know why anyone would run it this gen
-AGTL

 

[Thimo]

I'd like to nom a couple things as well

Unranked to C-
I honestly don't know why its on D or C- yet, it's really good. You might say it lost its niche this gen in checking Darkrai, however I don't think thats true. I think Breloom is better in gen 7 because every single thing that checked sleep (Sleep Talk and Lum Berry) are pretty much nonexistant nowadays. With Spore and Substitute in its arsenal along with Poison Heal, having Speed Control in forms of Low Sweep and Rock Tomb and being able to choose from a variety of other moves like Leech Seed and Swords Dance, I think it's something to be reckoned with. All you really need to do to get this thing set up is get a Spore off and then most of the time, from that point on its really devastating. Breloom needs little support, perhaps a Muk to deal with Ghost types if you're running just runninig Low Sweep. But that's it really. The amount of support breloom gives back is crazy too. If the opponent keeps switching, their whole team will be put asleep in no time, giving mons like geoxern dd mega ray or hexgar a good time. Imo C- is still low because it simply does way more than other mons in that rankings, but I'm gonna stay with this for now.

C- to C
Tyranitar is pretty underrated, I think its shuca berry set is one of the best Mega Ray checks atm. It also beats Mega Gengar without Focus Blast which makes ttar useful against 80 to 90% of the teams imo. It checks quite a few other high ranked mons such as Yveltal and Ho-Oh too. I think when ranking this initially nobody really played with it in this gen, but after trying it myself I have concluded C- is way too low for this mon. It fits with many mons as a core and it sets rocks and it's Sand Stream can help stuff like Excadrill and it can help against deo-a spam teams, and yeah thats pretty much it. But i truly believe that checking the 2 best megas on a single set whilst also checking other threats like yveltal desevres a buff in its viability ranking.

Unranked to D
Shuckle is a simple lead with access to both Sticky Webs and Rocks it's quite annoying to say the least. It's bulk with sturdy and Mental Herb is what sets it apart from being outclassed by Smeargle. Against offense, most of the time it is garantueed webs which basically means a garantueed win too. Encore makes Shuckle not setup bait and a slow encore aids in setting up stuff, if they, for some reason, decide to stay in. Got nothing much else to say about it but I think it definitly deserves D rank.

 

[SaturnZelda]

I also support Mega Gengar moving to S, but I'll give some more reasoning as to why. HypnoGar in itself isn't S rank worthy. It functions as the best revenge killer in the game, with Shadow Tag preventing opposing Pokémon (barring Ghost types) from switching out on it. It's also immune to Extreme Speed, which allows it to revenge kill a weakened EKiller/non-Dragon Dance Mega Rayquaza without fear of retribution in the form of Extreme Speed. It can also run Destiny Bond, which gives it the ability to give a mon for mon tradeoff against a matchup that isn't favorable for the rest of your team. Taunt allows it to beat phasers, such as Lugia and Chansey.

 

[Chloe]

Viability Update:

Lucario: C- to C+
Excadrill: C- to C
Solgaleo: B+ to B-
Lunala: B- to B+
Groudon: B to C+
Arceus-Grass: Unranked to D
Shuckle: Unranked to D
Tyranitar: C- to C
Breloom: Unranked to C-
Celesteela: B- to B

We're still unable to reach a consensus on Mega Gengar and Zygarde-Complete so please feel free to continue arguing for or against the moving of these Pokémon.

:J

 

[HunterStorm]

Alright.

Zygarde A+
For the second time, I argue this thing's viability to get an immediate push to A+

Zygarde-Complete @ Groundium Z
Ability: Power Construct
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe or 252 Atk / 24 SpD / 232 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Thousand Arrows
- Outrage
- Extreme Speed

I am going to provide a short summary of every battle along with the replays. Refer to my previous post to see why this is good in theory. This post will be limited to replays and maybe some arguments in theory during the end.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7anythinggoes-527583102
White Lion vs Fardin in AG Open.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7anythinggoes-534298521
Rocks set up by rock setter - Zyg 6-0's with no support and minimal plays required. Can't say opponent choked too much, either. (Killed Deo a + lunala + mray + e killer + Yve + Tapu Koko)

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pokebankanythinggoes-518757648
Zyg sweeps team with just rocks support (Kills deo s, groundceus, e killer, mray, Lunala and Solgaleo)

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7anythinggoes-532242799
Zyg sweeps 6-0 from turn 3 after just rocks support. Solgaleo, Mray, Yve, Zekrom, P dong and Poisonceus killed)

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7anythinggoes-527350105
Zyg kills 4 after just rocks support causing immediate forf (Genesect, Darkceus, Mray, Ekiller taken out)

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pokebankanythinggoes-507462073
Zyg sweeps after almost dead game for winning team. 5 mons swept - Mgar, ho oh, xern, dong and waterceus


http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pokebankanythinggoes-519981584
Zygarde complete sweep - 5-0's with just rock support. (Killed Xern, E killer, Waterceus, Yve, Groundceus with almost all at full health)

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pokebankanythinggoes-519279508
Zygarde sweeps with 4 mons remaining, kills Solgaleo, Mray, Lunala and E killer)


http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pokebankanythinggoes-521441853
Zyg sweeps with 4 mons remaining, kills Yve + Mgar + Magearna + P dong, all full health

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7anythinggoes-532243587
Zyg late game sweeping, opponent had 3 mons left (Blissey, Ditto and Supportceus)

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7anythinggoes-532307433
Zyg late game sweeping, after opponent had 3 mons left. (Killed Groundceus + Xern x2)

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pokebankanythinggoes-520420687
Zyg late game sweeping, 3 mons (Mgar + e killer + magearna)

Edit - http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7anythinggoes-534715986

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7anythinggoes-534843794
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7anythinggoes-534715986

Relevant calcs -

Defensive

252 Atk Life Orb Arceus Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zygarde-Complete: 136-161 (23.7 - 28%) -- 91.9% chance to 4HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Rayquaza-Mega Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zygarde-Complete: 135-160 (23.5 - 27.9%) -- 85.6% chance to 4HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Rayquaza-Mega Dragon Ascent vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zygarde-Complete: 304-359 (53 - 62.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Pixie Plate Arceus-Fairy Judgment vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Zygarde-Complete: 314-372 (54.7 - 64.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Pixie Plate Arceus-Fairy Judgment vs. 0 HP / 32 SpD Zygarde: 306-360 (85.7 - 100.8%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO (your average crit chance is your OHKO chance)
252+ Atk Groudon-Primal Precipice Blades vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zygarde-Complete: 234-276 (40.8 - 48.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Life Orb Yveltal Oblivion Wing vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Zygarde-Complete: 196-231 (34.2 - 40.3%) -- 44.6% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 Atk Life Orb Dark Aura Yveltal Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zygarde-Complete: 142-168 (24.7 - 29.3%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Spooky Plate Arceus-Ghost Never-Ending Nightmare (190 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zygarde-Complete: 298-352 (52 - 61.4%) -- 96.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Arceus Frustration vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zygarde-Complete: 175-207 (30.5 - 36.1%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Lunala Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Zygarde-Complete: 468-552 (81.6 - 96.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (I'll talk about why this can be relevant)
0 SpA Arceus-Water Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Zygarde-Complete: 316-372 (55.1 - 64.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (what I said above)

Offensive
+1 252+ Atk Zygarde-Complete Tectonic Rage (180 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Arceus: 345-406 (90.5 - 106.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Zygarde-Complete Thousand Arrows vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Rayquaza-Mega: 270-318 (76.9 - 90.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Zygarde-Complete Tectonic Rage (180 BP) vs. 252 HP / 68 Def Arceus-Fairy: 433-510 (97.5 - 114.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252+ Atk Zygarde-Complete Tectonic Rage (180 BP) vs. 240 HP / 0 Def Xerneas: 421-496 (92.9 - 109.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Zygarde-Complete Outrage vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Giratina: 456-536 (90.6 - 106.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Zygarde-Complete Thousand Arrows vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Yveltal: 280-331 (71.2 - 84.2%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252+ Atk Zygarde-Complete Thousand Arrows vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Solgaleo: 380-450 (91.5 - 108.4%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252+ Atk Zygarde-Complete Tectonic Rage (180 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Groudon-Primal: 414-488 (102.7 - 121%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252+ Atk Zygarde-Complete Tectonic Rage (180 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Lunala: 444-523 (106.9 - 126%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+6 252+ Atk Zygarde-Complete Thousand Arrows vs. 252 HP / 120+ Def Lugia: 355-418 (85.3 - 100.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock (I'll talk about why this is relevant)
252+ Atk Zygarde-Complete Devastating Drake (190 BP) vs. 252 HP / 120+ Def Lugia: 187-222 (44.9 - 53.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery + 252+ Atk Zygarde-Complete Outrage vs. 252 HP / 120+ Def Lugia: 118-141 (28.3 - 33.8%) -- 98.4% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery (72% damage minimum without DD on the switch)
+1 252+ Atk Zygarde-Complete Tectonic Rage (180 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Ferrothorn: 319-376 (90.6 - 106.8%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252+ Atk Zygarde-Complete Devastating Drake (190 BP) vs. 252 HP / 120+ Def Lugia: 280-331 (67.3 - 79.5%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Zygarde-Complete Devastating Drake (190 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Unaware Quagsire: 228-268 (57.8 - 68%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery + 252+ Atk Zygarde-Complete Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Unaware Quagsire: 144-171 (36.5 - 43.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery = 93% minimum damage on the switch


I'll just ask for someone to show me gen 7 replays of any other mon sweeping as comfortably and as consistently as Zygarde does. Granted that this set is going to have issues vs stall that has Lugia, Clefable or Quagsire, you'll find that it still breaks most stall lacking any of these three. Z outrage can be an alternative to break stall more efficiently, but I've found z arrows to be very, very useful in absolutely destroying Offense builds. The longevity Zygarde comes with is almost exclusive to it, making it one of the rare breeds that can sweep e speed spam teams with minimal support. It sets up on basically everything that doesn't hit it with Ice Beam or draco (it can actually set up on 0 spa Fairyceus).
Now, here's the set that hasn't been discussed (or put into practice much), but I believe will be equally viable.

Zygarde-Complete @ Groundium Z
Ability: Power Construct
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Thousand Arrows
- Thousand Waves
- Rest

I've already posted replays where Thousand Waves Zygarde swept multiple teams - some of them well built stall with Lugia in it. The threat of waves trapping is highly underrated, as there's basically nothing any team can do about it if they don't expect it. Groundium z + DD + Rest + Waves allows it to trap any mon that doesn't 3hko it (there are many) and set up to +6. This is especially relevant for stall, as Zyg has grown a reputation for being easily walled out. Losing outrage and e speed isn't huge for Zyg, as it barely ever needs either of the two moves vs offense (as shown in the several replays), and z groundium TA is usually sufficient. This set allows it to have a seriously good sweeping chance vs stall while being almost as efficient in general. The only serious downside for me is the lack of priority, which tbh, is not that big considering its massive bulk.

I reiterate the fact that it runs various other sets, all different in utility and very much viable. It fits nearly all playstyles and can potentially 6-0 all playstyles. Give me replays of one other mon 6-0'ing teams as efficiently as zyg does (with basically just rocks support) in gen 7. I'll wait.

 

[HunterStorm]

I'll update and post more replays in the edits. ^

Furthermore, I'm just going to say that the replays I posted are very relevant because they represent everything Zyg can do. It's not the same team beaten over and over, it's several different teams - all of which are not bad. Not many teams would've come out with a different outcome for the sole reason that barely anything switches in on zyg except unaware mons and Lugia. Refer to my calcs for theorymoning. The replays have several teams being swept with relevant and widely used HO mons and cores, and not all of them are ground weak. There's not much of an argument in saying 'x replay was bad because the team was zygarde weak' because like at least half of AG teams end up being Zygarde weak because of its amazing coverage.

 

[Adeleine]

Clefable C= -> C+ (B-?)

Yep, Clefable is still the bomb-diggity in this wondrous 7th Gen. It deserves a rise because of the many niches it fills for balanced/offensive teams. Many seem to support the special defensive set, but my balance team much prefers the full physical defense set. In addition to providing Wish and Heal Bell Support, PhysDef pretty reliably handles many SD Arceus (pre-emptively Wish to scout for Z-Moves, you'll come out on top), Zygarde-Complete (Moonblast outdamages Twaves), Giratina that isn't StatusHex Giratina-O, Yveltal that isn't LO Special Offensive, and MegaSab. Important to not overlook is its unique ability to take at least one hit from things that overpower it but can't punch through Unaware, like Mray and GeoXern (and things like LO special offensive ygod), letting it get a crucial Moonblast or two to rack up chip damage and let a secondary answer/priority user finish the job. It syncs very well with Ho-oh, with it taking physical hits Ho-Oh can't, and Ho-Oh tanking special hits Clefable can't and smashing back, especially in the case of stopping Geoxern. It super super sucks how much Mgar abuses it, but it's essential niches merit it a higher spot.

EDIT: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7anythinggoes-538302180
Is a decent, if not super high ladder, replay where clefable pulls its weight and then some. I need to ladder moar :<

 

[Chloe]

Okay, all council members have been quite adamant about lowering Xerneas's position on the viability ranking for a while, and although no one has posted anything about it on the thread, the general consensus of users in the room and the discord chat seems to be similar. So we're going ahead and dropping Xerneas.

A+ to A-

Why was Xerneas dropped?
Plenty of reasons actually. The prevalence of Heart Swap Magearna and Psych Up users such as Poison Arceus make safe Geomancy setup a rare occurrence without a ton of support such as an extra teamslot in Dugtrio. On top of this Z-Geomancy sets struggle from this even further, due to their inability to deal any boosted damage prior to the swap, as well as the common phazers and alternate methods of removing boosts throughout the metagame giving it a hard time. Xerneas's Choice Scarf utility is much less evident due to the lack of potency Darkrai possesses, as now it is just a fast Fairy-type attacker, with somewhat decent coverage. Some could even say Scarfers such as Lunala and Yveltal outclass its Choice Scarf set. Additionally, its Life Orb and Choice Specs sets are still usable; however, these alone are not enough to justify an A+ ranking. Defensive sets are outclassed by Fairy Arceus bar Aromatherapy access, which usually just doesn't cut it. Fairy Arceus is better in most situations because of that. I'd go as far to say Fairy Arceus is a much more viable option in the current metagame. These are not the sole reasons for the drop, but it should give a general idea of how Xerneas is a much less potent threat this generation.

Additional ranking notes:

• A lot of the lower ranks are quite messy at the moment, more discussion on Clefable and any other lower rank nominations would be appreciated. Potentially we may need to move a lot of the C rank around.
• It seems that the main issue with the current viability is that many people want change but aren't motivated enough to make the required nominations and/or arguments. If you agree or disagree with the moving of Zygarde or Gengar, please speak up, otherwise it ends up being solely council decision which isn't particularly the healthiest way to handle a viability ranking.

 

[GreenDrac0]

Please take this with a grain of salt, since I am somewhat unfamiliar with role compendium. Is it possible to remove Zygarde from stealth rocks? It cannot learn the move, so I am genuinely confused as to why Zygarde is listed here.

Edit:
I also want to say that I agree with Zygarde moving up to A+, but I have no real opinion on Mega Gengar right now.

 

[mertyville]

The Megastones for Mewtwo are now officially out.

 

[WallaceTheChampion]

Art by imas

Welcome to the official Anything Goes Viability Rankings. The concept of this thread is that we will organize the Pokémon in this metagame into ranks, varying on how good they are. You are encouraged to post thoughts on where each Pokémon should be ranked; however, there are a few regulations we follow:

Firstly, nominations without context or supporting evidence will be ignored. Providing replays and usage stats are excellent ways to display your nominated Pokémon in action; although, this is not required and should not be the basis of your argument.
Secondly, be civil when debating with other users. Nothing makes your argument seem more invalid than when you begin to insult another user instead of actually debating the topic at hand.
Thirdly, ensure any replays provided are against skilled opponents with actual teams. If your opponent has a Choice Specs Ho-Oh, this is a clear indication that this is not the case.

Viability Council
Chloe.
DontStealMyPenguin
HunterStorm
Megazard
Thimo

The Pokemon in the sub-ranks are fully ordered in alphabetical order.
~​

S Rank

S

Rayquaza-Mega​

A Rank

A+

Arceus-Ghost

Gengar-Mega

Groudon-Primal

Yveltal


A

Arceus

Arceus-Fairy

Arceus-Steel

Zygarde-Complete


A-

Arceus-Ground

Arceus-Water

Deoxys-Attack

Ho-Oh

Kyogre-Primal

Xerneas​

B Rank

B+

Arceus-Dark

Arceus-Rock

Lugia

Lunala

Magearna

Mewtwo


B

Arceus-Dragon

Celesteela

Ferrothorn

Giratina

Sableye-Mega

Salamence-Mega


B-

Deoxys-Speed

Giratina-Origin

Kyogre

Skarmory

Solgaleo​

C Rank

C+

Arceus-Poison

Blissey

Dialga

Groudon

Jirachi

Kyurem-White

Lucario-Mega

Muk-Alola

Pyukumuku

Rayquaza

Scizor-Mega

Smeargle

Tapu Lele


C

Bronzong

Chansey

Clefable

Ditto

Excadrill

Genesect

Glalie

Klefki

Quagsire

Shaymin-Sky

Toxapex

Tyranitar

Wobbuffet

Zekrom


C-

Blaziken

Breloom

Darkrai

Landorus

Landorus-Therian

Nihilego

Palkia

Pheromosa

Scolipede

Tentacruel​

D Rank

%Erotic Pigeons: can we make a "thimo/chloe made us do this rank"

Aegislash

Alomomola

Amoonguss

Arceus-Grass

Drifblim

Espeon

Gothitelle

Gyarados-Mega

Kartana

Shedinja

Shuckle

Slowbro-Mega

Whimsicott​

Nominating Primal-Groudon for S rank!
Primal-Groudon is super viable in Anything Goes in my opinion, It can be used as stealth Rock set-Upper and as Physical Sweeper. If Desolate Land is active he has only one weakness: Ground. You can easily play around that by switching to a Flying type so paired with Mega-Rayquaza he is super strong. Going back to the fact that you dont know what groudon your opponent is using, he is unpredictable and that can cost you the win. Personally i had succes on the ladder with this set:

Groudon-Primal @ Red Orb
Ability: Desolate Land
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Rock Polish
- Fire Punch
- Precipice Blades

First you use Rock Polish to get a speed boost and then swords dance to get a attack boost then you can just Fire Punch or Precicipe Blades.


Offensive Damage Calculations

After a Swords Dance, In Harsh Sun:

+2 252 Atk Primal Groudon Fire Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Arceus in Harsh Sun: 211-249 (107.6 - 127%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252 Atk Primal Groudon Precipice Blades vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Giratina: 168-198 (65.3 - 77%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Sitrus Berry recovery

+2 252 Atk Primal Groudon Fire Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Genesect in Harsh Sun: 1024-1212 (696.5 - 824.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252 Atk Primal Groudon Fire Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Darkrai in Harsh Sun: 190-225 (107.3 - 127.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252 Atk Primal Groudon Precipice Blades vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Arceus-Water: 124-147 (63.2 - 75%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

[Adeleine]

Nominating Primal-Groudon for S rank!
Primal-Groudon is super viable in Anything Goes in my opinion, It can be used as stealth Rock set-Upper and as Physical Sweeper. If Desolate Land is active he has only one weakness: Ground. You can easily play around that by switching to a Flying type so paired with Mega-Rayquaza he is super strong. Going back to the fact that you dont know what groudon your opponent is using, he is unpredictable and that can cost you the win. Personally i had succes on the ladder with this set:

Groudon-Primal @ Red Orb
Ability: Desolate Land
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Rock Polish
- Fire Punch
- Precipice Blades

First you use Rock Polish to get a speed boost and then swords dance to get a attack boost then you can just Fire Punch or Precicipe Blades.


Offensive Damage Calculations

After a Swords Dance, In Harsh Sun:

+2 252 Atk Primal Groudon Fire Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Arceus in Harsh Sun: 211-249 (107.6 - 127%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252 Atk Primal Groudon Precipice Blades vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Giratina: 168-198 (65.3 - 77%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Sitrus Berry recovery

+2 252 Atk Primal Groudon Fire Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Genesect in Harsh Sun: 1024-1212 (696.5 - 824.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252 Atk Primal Groudon Fire Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Darkrai in Harsh Sun: 190-225 (107.3 - 127.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252 Atk Primal Groudon Precipice Blades vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Arceus-Water: 124-147 (63.2 - 75%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

I disagree with this nomination. I don't feel that Pdon is on the tier of Mega Ray, or even of Mega Gengar tbh. You say that it's Ground weakness is easy to play around, but Ground types have answers to Ground switchins (e.g. Arceus Ground has Ice Beam/WOW and other Pdon have Stone Edge/Dragon Tail) and other users of Ground moves (SD Arceus-Normal, CM Arceus formes) punish or kill Ground-switchins. While Pdon has many excellent moves and great sets, most of its sets seem to "lack" something thanks to 4MSS, like your set lacking a neutral hit on Ho-Oh/Mray. Also, I feel like now is an inopportune time to call for its rise, with things like the rise of LO Mray / HypnoGar and fall of GeoXern putting its traditional defensive niches into question. A great and meta-shaping Pokemon, no doubt, but not one that should rise to S.

Also, Giratina usually runs more defense investment/nature iirc, genesect isn't that relevant, and what is 252/252+ darkrai
?_?

 

[Adeleine]

Nominating Arceus-Ground A- -> A=. I brought it up in the AG room and Syno/fardin responded, both support and the convo covers my reasoning pretty well.

[14:47:30] %Tiksi: Thoughts on Arceus-Ground to A= (from A-)?
[14:47:50] +Synoptic ☾: Reason being?
[14:48:10] %Tiksi: very reliable defogger, good pdon check, rly good at punishing switches with ice beam/wow
[14:48:47] fardinag: Tiksi yh its very popular in uber cause of that
[14:48:56] Halo Hunter: Tiski, what moves do you run on Grouceus?
[14:49:02] %Tiksi: murdered by pogre but good matchups like ghostceus/zygardeC lacking rest
[14:49:05] +Synoptic ☾: I support it since it can wall Zyggy, and playing Ubers has definitely given me a chance to see how it checks all flying types, how it put pressure on Pdon and is a reliable bulky defogger
[14:49:11] %Tiksi: i run judgment ice beam wow defog

• (Tiksinote: I actually run judgment defog ice beam recover, i have no idea why i said this inferior set)

[14:49:21] +Synoptic ☾: Shoutout to Fardin for helping me realize with his Uber STall
[14:49:25] fardinag: Synoptic yh almost every stall has it
[14:49:41] %Tiksi: i haven't used physical sets but maybe those are good?
[14:49:44] fardinag: and almost every balance too
[14:49:47] %Tiksi: with groundinium z
[14:49:55] fardinag: physical set is also hot
[14:50:02] +Synoptic ☾: Yeah, Tiksi. Offensive is dope
[14:50:07] %Tiksi: cools
[14:50:12] %Tiksi: ill go nom shortly
[14:50:21] +Synoptic ☾: I'll help support if you need me to
[14:50:25] +Synoptic ☾: I have replays as well
[14:50:28] +Synoptic ☾: Both AG and UBers

note: the ghostceus matchup is bc you know it can't run lum and can burn it/recover damage

It also nails mgar while tolerating an attack/wow, deals with many steelceus (although assuming you run Judgment, CM/recover becomes problematic)

Also sucks that Ho-oh hoses you without toxic/stone edge, but hey, you have those two things and ho oh has admittedly declined some

 

[HunterStorm]

[14:49:11] %Tiksi: i run judgment ice beam wow defog

The defog set has a lot of utility, but it definitely needs recovery.
Groundceus has definitely improved in viability because of Zygarde release. It is one of the few support mons that can hard counter Zygarde consistently with a viable set, is one of the more reliable defoggers and pressures a lot of the common AG teams. Furthermore, it pressures a bulk of stuff like Steelceus, Poisonceus, Magearna (notice the natural synergy with xern), while IB keeps its switchins limited. Except Celesteela, Bronzong and Skarm, I don't see many things outright walling all of its sets. It can also run gravity to check some of these, which is noteworthy. Moreover, SD Z eq Groundceus is more than viable as a late game sweeper (EQ, SE, Espeed coverage works fine). These developments add to its previously viable CM and bulky wisp sets. One of its most underrated trait, along with Fairyceus and Waterceus, is that it can tank a majority of the AG Meta while also not having to worry about being trapped by Mgar. I'll support its push to A.

 

[MZ]

Xerneas to A-/B+:
Lets be real here. Xerneas is outclassed in every way as a fast offensive fairy type by fairyceus. The only niche it has is in its Geomancy or Z Geomancy sets, which is way too dangerous to use with Magearna and/or Roar/Whirlwind running on every serious team. Yeah, it has a scarf set, but its still classed by fairyceus. It also has access to Aromatherapy, but how much of a use does that really have? Xerneas has no Physical Fairy type moves, so any real set is going to be mixed or special, letting it gt beat by many common threats such as Ho-oh, Ferrothorn, Steelceus, Primal Groudon, and much more.

I just want to say that there's been a lot of talk about dropping xern and I'm not specifically calling out this post but any post about xern's rank should really consider the specs set possibly other AoA or Z-move lure sets which have seen some ubers use and seem quite fun but at least specs which is stupidly good right now. That's not an official thing but I cant really agree with any argument not bringing up what's probably xern's best niche atm. All of the most common Xern stops take anywhere from 35% to getting clean 2hkod with rocks up by a specs moonblast and that's before you try to catch something with a predonkt (so them having, say, celesteela isn't really an impediment at all), and it's incredible at putting pressure on balance reliant on one more more support arc formes that get hard pressured by you.

also yes groundy is a fsr