Unpopular opinions

[Basedwell]

First question: yes, in pretty much every generation they typically switch out on the last possible turn if they can. In a double battle, if both Pokemon are affected and both backups are active, they will switch both Pokemon at once.

Second question: depends on the rest of your team really. If you're interested, you can read about the Perish Song teams I used here (for Gen III's Frontier, and also used to great success in XD's Orre Colosseum) and here (for Gen V's Battle Subway).

I’ve always had a soft spot for Perish Trap. On my second play through on FRLG I had wanted to train up my underleveled Lapras and Dugtrio on Sabrina’s gym. I wasn’t doing enough damage, but then I realized I could Perish Trap with Lapras, then switch in with Dugtrio. The opponent would be unable to escape, and I could then use Dig to burn turns.

I started playing VGC bc of Perish Trap, and even made my own team. I had no idea what I was doing, and the team was built using very unconventional mons, but I learned a lot about the basics of strategy, because I had a defined structure + wincon, and was able to win 40% of my games at a low ELO.

I really like the strategies you showed me, and I look forward to trying out the teams, as well as my own variations. I tend to try to build my own for doubles, which I’m getting better at, but often means not only do I have to learn how to improve my literal play, but I’m playing with a suboptimal lineup. The advantage is I am able to improve at both and one day hope to be more original and better at teambuilding than my peers, and experience satisfaction when I find a structure that works.

I’ve been playing around with slightly similar things. Using a lot of Gyarados: I wanted to include a flying move to take advantage of STAB, but felt like Bounce’s imperfect accuracy made it risky, especially with it being two turns, which felt too slow offensively for my team structures. I also like the idea of misdirection, although I tended to have more dedicated support mons in that role ie Amoonguss. TYSM, I look forward to trying it.

 

[Basedwell]

Am I washed or is Soul Silver one of the hardest earlier gens? Crystal? I didn’t have a problem with. Curb stomped Whitney so hard I’m surprised Drake didn’t mention it. The only tough battle I remember from Johto was Claire and Lance a little bit.

White 2? I could almost have done a Nuzlocke. I fainted probably 12 times across all important matches before the Champion. And that was with zero prep aside from what I remembered from White.

Soul Silver? I wiped two times to Bugsy and two times to Morty. Admittedly, I’m not using items and have been a little bit underleveled, but still!! I haven’t had this much trouble with a vanilla run since I started playing Pokemon.

With Bugsy, even at full strength, Quilava was taking 3-4 hits to KO Scyther, and couldn’t avoid enough crits in between healing. And everything else got OHKOed by U-Turn.

With Morty, I didn’t have the best luck against Hypnosis until my last fight, but I couldn’t really touch Gengar. When it’s outspeeding everything and doing > 50% each shadow ball, I end up overwhelmed when no one on my team can do enough damage to overcome healing + sitrus berry.

Sure, I could have pp-stalled him with a normal type, but this isn’t a Nuzlocke, and I’m not trying to cheese my way through everything. I haven’t had super suboptimal typing either.

 

[nitchenkightmares]

Nah, HGSS is a pretty easy early gen. Even by vanilla pokemon standards. Only btfod in easiness by RBY for a variety of reasons. Crappy trainer AI, level up learnsets on every boss.
Not to mention you supermog the AI with all the Stat EXP you get.
HGSS's peak difficulty is in the early game and even then:
Bugsy's scyther is scary, I'll give you that if you don't want to use geodude. The alternative is the rock Tomb tm in union cave so you can hit him with that and BUGS SQUASHED
Whitney's miltank: same problem. Also countered by the dude, but you have more options. Take a fighting mon can be the get out of jail free card, or use rock Tomb again! Using it on miltank is actually really effective since if you spam it enough your other mons can be able to outspeed and finish the cow off. Just any pokemon with a high defense does the trick. Most players use their starter+flaafy+some others, which doesn't really pan out.
And for morty, I wouldn't call using a normal type cheating. You're using type advantages to your advantage so nothings stopping you from pivoting to a sentret to tank shadow balls.
Eh, what I'm tryna say is pokemon becomes easier the more you explore it's avenues.
Besides, after morty, the entire johto league just folds in half because GF decided to not have a single enemy pokemon levelled past 30.

 

[Basedwell]

Nah, HGSS is a pretty easy early gen. Even by vanilla pokemon standards. Only btfod in easiness by RBY for a variety of reasons. Crappy trainer AI, level up learnsets on every boss.
Not to mention you supermog the AI with all the Stat EXP you get.
HGSS's peak difficulty is in the early game and even then:
Bugsy's scyther is scary, I'll give you that if you don't want to use geodude. The alternative is the rock Tomb tm in union cave so you can hit him with that and BUGS SQUASHED

Tbh i forgot I could use Geodude/Onix and destroy him lol. I don’t like either one so I wouldn’t have used them either way. I don’t like burning tms early on in games where they’re not reusable.

Whitney's miltank: same problem. Also countered by the dude, but you have more options. Take a fighting mon can be the get out of jail free card, or use rock Tomb again! Using it on miltank is actually really effective since if you spam it enough your other mons can be able to outspeed and finish the cow off. Just any pokemon with a high defense does the trick. Most players use their starter+flaafy+some others, which doesn't really pan out.

I had Heracross so not an issue. It was over in 3 turns lol.

And for morty, I wouldn't call using a normal type cheating. You're using type advantages to your advantage so nothings stopping you from pivoting to a sentret to tank shadow balls.

I hadn’t been training any normal types, and there’s a difference between using types to your advantage, and taking advantage of holes in AI/moveset/game mechanics to have an overly lengthy battle where your opponent loses a war of attrition. The latter is fine for challenge runs, but I don’t think it should be necessary for vanilla runs.

Eh, what I'm tryna say is pokemon becomes easier the more you explore it's avenues.
Besides, after morty, the entire johto league just folds in half because GF decided to not have a single enemy pokemon levelled past 30.

I guess, what I was trying to say, was that in most games, provided you have a well rounded squad consisting of good to great Pokemon, the gyms won’t present a challenge.

Whereas for HGSS, if you use specific strategies for the early gyms, they’re easy.

Like by virtue of having a starter with a good matchup into Gym 2 in any other game means that gym is free, unless they specifically planned against that type matchup. Like putting a bunch of ground/water in a water gym to counter against electric type attacks.

But in HGSS Quilava gets overpowered by Bugsy’s ace. Or can depending on the matchup.

And more challenging mid game leaders like Flannery or Norman require planning, but there are a variety of strategies available, and again, by virtue of forming a good squad by that point in the game, I didn’t have too much trouble overpowering them without having to go out of my way to use a certain type.

Maybe it’s just a coincidence that the types i enjoy using in the region don’t match up as well, or are at awkward spots in their development. Either way, it wasn’t meant as a complaint but an observation :)

 

[Ravenson]

I'd say HGSS is also a bit difficult when it comes time to take on the Elite 4 because you're not only struggling against the original's level curve, but you don't have the badge boosts that made it a bit easier. That part always made me have to stop and grind.

 

[Basedwell]

I'd say HGSS is also a bit difficult when it comes time to take on the Elite 4 because you're not only struggling against the original's level curve, but you don't have the badge boosts that made it a bit easier. That part always made me have to stop and grind.

I think in the OG games, you had the advantage of higher EV totals (likely maxing out all stats if you use the same team throughout) and weaker enemy teams.

I decided I wasn’t in the best headspace for a first time play through and was being overly negative. It’s a fun world, and I was, to an extent, rushing through it. That said, they definitely could have given more to attention to the world and less to daily events!! :P

I do feel like the game picks up after Goldenrod, more of a sudden shift than in most games. And I think there’s an optimal order of enjoyability for gyms, going left to right on the map.

I also think the Safari Zone was a good addition, but should have been something else. The two extra routes add a lot, but I’m not too big on the zone itself. Too little yield for the amount of work during the game.

 

[QuentinQuonce]

I was initially excited by the two additional routes HGSS added, but ended up heartily disliking them.

Route 47 is genuinely visually stunning (by the standards of the visuals at the time anyway) and feels genuinely distinct from all the other routes in Johto. But for all that it looks great, it's just... small. It takes far less time to traverse than it looks like it should; the feature of there being different levels is neat, but there are no alternative paths to travel on foot so the main part of the route ends up basically being a corridor. And even though you can use Surf at the base of the route, you need Waterfall or Rock Climb to actually go anywhere or access the tall grass. The Cliff Cave is a really cool place in concept (I love how you can hear the waterfall even inside the cave) but it's just a glorified ladder; it should have been much bigger and sprawling.

And then Route 48 is just... nothing. No trainers, only one item barely hidden or out of the way, nothing to actually return for barring a couple of Pokemon not found anywhere else.

I wish these routes had been as expansive as the official region artwork made them look. They don't feel lived-in or particularly sprawling and considering they're counted as two different area they're barely the size of several other routes in Johto - Route 31 and Route 34 and Route 27 all contain actual houses, but you couldn't imagine anyone living here.

I've said before but I wish the area leading here could have been a forest. Johto is full of caves and the cave between Cianwood and Route 47 is an incredibly dull area - a forest would have been a more interesting way to connect the two locations (with the player heading north from Cianwood, climbing upwards and gradually turning south, then finally emerging onto Route 47) and would have been the perfect opportunity for a winding road with multiple branching paths and a bunch of different trainers. Ilex Forest is a dark, gloomy sort of place but imagine a clifftop forest that was sunny, windswept, and bright, full of Pokemon like Skiploom, Pidgeotto, Drowzee, Sunkern, and Tangela. Not only would this add a bit more length to the story, it'd also provide an opportunity to put some wild Pokemon and NPC trainers with species not seen elsewhere. Considering how disappointed everyone in Kanto is shown to be by the closure of the Safari Zone in Fuchsia, people should be raring to visit the brand-new Safari Zone in Johto: the road there should be absolutely chock-full of eager trainers looking to capture rare Pokemon, as well as showoffs who've come to battle and showcase their teams.

 

[Basedwell]

I was initially excited by the two additional routes HGSS added, but ended up heartily disliking them.

Route 47 is genuinely visually stunning (by the standards of the visuals at the time anyway) and feels genuinely distinct from all the other routes in Johto. But for all that it looks great, it's just... small. It takes far less time to traverse than it looks like it should; the feature of there being different levels is neat, but there are no alternative paths to travel on foot so the main part of the route ends up basically being a corridor. And even though you can use Surf at the base of the route, you need Waterfall or Rock Climb to actually go anywhere or access the tall grass. The Cliff Cave is a really cool place in concept (I love how you can hear the waterfall even inside the cave) but it's just a glorified ladder; it should have been much bigger and sprawling.

And then Route 48 is just... nothing. No trainers, only one item barely hidden or out of the way, nothing to actually return for barring a couple of Pokemon not found anywhere else.

I wish these routes had been as expansive as the official region artwork made them look. They don't feel lived-in or particularly sprawling and considering they're counted as two different area they're barely the size of several other routes in Johto - Route 31 and Route 34 and Route 27 all contain actual houses, but you couldn't imagine anyone living here.

I've said before but I wish the area leading here could have been a forest. Johto is full of caves and the cave between Cianwood and Route 47 is an incredibly dull area - a forest would have been a more interesting way to connect the two locations (with the player heading north from Cianwood, climbing upwards and gradually turning south, then finally emerging onto Route 47) and would have been the perfect opportunity for a winding road with multiple branching paths and a bunch of different trainers. Ilex Forest is a dark, gloomy sort of place but imagine a clifftop forest that was sunny, windswept, and bright, full of Pokemon like Skiploom, Pidgeotto, Drowzee, Sunkern, and Tangela. Not only would this add a bit more length to the story, it'd also provide an opportunity to put some wild Pokemon and NPC trainers with species not seen elsewhere. Considering how disappointed everyone in Kanto is shown to be by the closure of the Safari Zone in Fuchsia, people should be raring to visit the brand-new Safari Zone in Johto: the road there should be absolutely chock-full of eager trainers looking to capture rare Pokemon, as well as showoffs who've come to battle and showcase their teams.

That’s fair. I didn’t finish exploring them, but they felt expansive enough I made the mistake of assuming they matched the feeling you described.

 

[Basedwell]

Abomasnow is impossible to play with. How can i decide whether to name him Its Snover or Obamasnow.

In all seriousness I’m rescinding my negative Platinum take. After SS I thought i was burnt out of Pokemon only to find Plat to be a breath of fresh air. I still don’t love the new additions to it, but the dex overall is great and some of the new editions breathed new life into good designs that were too weak to be useful.

I think in the grand scheme of Pokemon, as they keep going and going, eventually the dex is going to get bigger and bigger, and adding more cross-gen evolutions and subspecies is a way to not be overwhelming while still adding to the franchise.

 

[Bakugames]

How can i decide whether to name him Its Snover or Obamasnow.

we're so barack obamasnow <- a perfect name thats impossible because of gamefreaks cruel censorship of names with more than 12 characters

 

[ant4456]

Shiny locking is fine. If anything I think it's a good idea a good amount of the times it's been done.

 

[nitchenkightmares]

I Do not think team plasma is a good team in bw1.
They don't really have a point. They preach about liberating their pokemon so they can be freed from human control, yet they do shit that is detrimental to the pokemon ecosystem. (E.g. assaulting a munna for dream mist)
Because they're shackled to a pokemon plot, we don't get to see team plasmas plans actually have a positive effect on the unovan mainland.
Therefore, they give off the same impression of the past 3 evil teams, "big bad who abuse pokemon for personal gain and nothing else"
Maybe if we saw team plasma saving a pokemon from a bad person then I guess I'd redeem them but...

 

[Basedwell]

I Do not think team plasma is a good team in bw1.
They don't really have a point. They preach about liberating their pokemon so they can be freed from human control, yet they do shit that is detrimental to the pokemon ecosystem. (E.g. assaulting a munna for dream mist)
Because they're shackled to a pokemon plot, we don't get to see team plasmas plans actually have a positive effect on the unovan mainland.
Therefore, they give off the same impression of the past 3 evil teams, "big bad who abuse pokemon for personal gain and nothing else"
Maybe if we saw team plasma saving a pokemon from a bad person then I guess I'd redeem them but...

That’s the point: they’re using what seems to be an altruistic cause because it allows them to hide their true intentions and rationalize their militarization. The perceived altruistic cause also brings in people who truly believe in it.

The whole point was that they supposedly had a plan for mass Pokemon liberation, which true believers (and the grifters amongst the 7 Sages claimed) would be a solution to the exploitative relationship between humans and Pokemon.

Which is what led to the majority of the “bad things” Team Plasma did: they were done by people who thought it was for the greater good.

Doing what you’re describing wasn’t sufficiently radical for these people, they weren’t concerned with an individual’s transgressions, or conditions for an individual Pokemon, but the systematic conditions that led the harm to Pokemon occurring.

They were not trying to reform the system but destroy it entirely.

Also I’m pretty sure someone reamed out the grunts for harrassing the Musharna.

 

[Esserise]

They preach about liberating their pokemon so they can be freed from human control, yet they do shit that is detrimental to the pokemon ecosystem. (E.g. assaulting a munna for dream mist)

That’s the idea, though. They’re supposed to be, at best, misguided and naive suckers who are being manipulated by the rhetoric of a wannabe dictator.

Team Plasma’s “argument” isn’t that Pokémon should be rescued from abusive Trainers. That would be a straightforwardly and obviously correct argument that everyone should be able to agree with, and wouldn’t really be worth creating a conflict over. Every reasonable person can agree that animal abusers are bad and should not be trusted to care for animals.

The issue is that Team Plasma’s (ostensible) position is that Pokémon training and battling is inherently abusive, because Pokémon inevitably get hurt in the process of doing battle, and that because of this, they are morally justified in stealing Pokémon that are mutual partners and companions to humans, with no regard for the feelings or consent of either the people or Pokémon affected.

Team Plasma are designed to occupy a deliberately extreme position that masquerades as a sensible one through the use of charged accusations that sound convincing on the surface, but have little to no foundation in truth. All while being used to advance the personal goals of the ultimate abusive piece of trash, who happens to be clever and resourceful enough to leverage these fallacious arguments in his favor.

 

[Basedwell]

we're so barack obamasnow <- a perfect name thats impossible because of gamefreaks cruel censorship of names with more than 12 characters

This is just like 1984… then again after using we’re so barack, perhaps a better name would be Bowling Pin bc the guy sure gets KO-ed a lot.

 

[Lontra Assassina]

I'd be way more willing to accept the "Team Plasma is misguided/hypocritical" angle if the game didn't stop to say "we gotta listen to people with different opinions, maaaan" fifty different times.

 

[ant4456]

The real hot take is that N is a badly written character in BW1, though is better/more interesting in B2/W2

(A take that I have)

 

[Just A Seaking]

I'd be way more willing to accept the "Team Plasma is misguided/hypocritical" angle if the game didn't stop to say "we gotta listen to people with different opinions, maaaan" fifty different times.

X and Y also loves this messaging, which is... misguided, to say the least, when they try to apply this lesson to Lysandre, who's a genocidal maniac who decidedly does not have a point. Black and White at least gestures at an ethical dilemma - and while I don't think it's perfectly handled, I can accept that this is a game for children, and I respect what the story accomplishes from that lens. X and Y's chronic centrism seriously rubs me the wrong way, especially considering recent geopolitical events. No, both sides do not always have a point - Team Flare wants to wipe out 99% of the human population and 100% of the Pokemon population, and usher in an age of the 1%. You can't write Lysandre as a proponent of fascist rhetoric (ugly people, make the world beautiful again, etc.) and then act as if he somehow had something good to offer the world.

Sycamore: "I always knew that he [Lysandre] desired a beautiful world... But what I really wanted was for him to put his ego aside and lead everything to greater heights. I never had this discussion with him, though. So I'm partially responsible for this."

Calem/Serena: "Lysandre chose only Team Flare. You and I chose everyone but Team Flare. But since our positions forced our hands, you can't really say any of us were right. So maybe... If both sides have something to say, it's best to meet halfway..."

Even KISEKI, the song in the end credits, otherwise one of my favorite setpieces in the series:

Search it out, and find the way:
the point where we can all meet.
The point where we're all the same.
There it lies: the future we seek.

Respecting other people's opinions is a valuable lesson to teach children, certainly. Yet when you construct a narrative where one side is represented by a bunch of genocidal lunatics who earnestly believe the world is fundamentally impure, and the other side is represented by people resisting against the notion of being killed en masse, that's an irresponsible message to start espousing! Lysandre can either be a tragic antihero with a point that we can take something from, or he can be an evil monster. You cannot write both. By comparison, N has a legitimate moral stake in the story, and is being actively manipulated by Ghetsis - his arc is all about overcoming that past abuse and seeing the world for himself. Lysandre has no arc because he's a megalomaniac - and that's a fine way to write a villain, but the narrative pretends after the fact that he was somehow just as good within as N was, and I can't respect that at all.

This also leads to the worst written dialogue in the entire series: Calem/Serena's battle at Victory Road. I already posted a snippet, but the full text is kinda necessary to understand what I mean:

Calem/Serena: "I've been thinking ever since that incident in Geosenge. Lysandre chose only Team Flare. You and I chose everyone but Team Flare. But since our positions forced our hands, you can't really say any of us were right. So maybe... If both sides have something to say, it's best to meet halfway... So I decided that from now on, I don't want to battle just to win but to see how you and your Pokémon think and feel! And that's the kind of Pokémon battle I'm challenging you to now!"

This is nonsense. Complete, utter nonsense. These points do not connect to one another at all. It's a non-sequitur leading into another non-sequitur. "Maybe the fascists had a point" -> "standard Pokemon friendship talk"???? Calem/Serena's arc in general is generally bad - an NPC learning that they're an NPC in a Pokemon game is funny, but also leads to them feeling completely aimless - but this is supposed to be the capstone of their arc! And yet they say absolutely nothing of substance. And after the battle:

Calem/Serena: "It's hard to put a finger on where, but I think you and I are alike. And that's why I didn't want to lose to you. But I think the reason we're alike is because we have so much in common. I'm really happy that we're friends."

"We're alike because we're alike" I mean, yeah.

(Yes, I know this is neither an unpopular opinion nor strictly related to Team Plasma. I just started typing. Oopsie.)

 

[Lontra Assassina]

Respecting other people's opinions is a valuable lesson to teach children, certainly. Yet when you construct a narrative where one side is represented by a bunch of genocidal lunatics who earnestly believe the world is fundamentally impure, and the other side is represented by people resisting against the notion of being killed en masse, that's an irresponsible message to start espousing! Lysandre can either be a tragic antihero with a point that we can take something from, or he can be an evil monster. You cannot write both. By comparison, N has a legitimate moral stake in the story, and is being actively manipulated by Ghetsis - his arc is all about overcoming that past abuse and seeing the world for himself. Lysandre has no arc because he's a megalomaniac - and that's a fine way to write a villain, but the narrative pretends after the fact that he was somehow just as good within as N was, and I can't respect that at all.

Not disagreeing with the logic here, I think N is probably the most compelling part about BW's story, but I'm not sure I'd say his arc is about about abuse when it comes up and is resolved in the last 10 minutes of the game. The reveal doesn't frame his past actions in a more interesting way (unlike Lillie, for exemple) other than saying "I guess you never had to take him seriously lol"

If I were to write this story, I'd make N closer to the player character's age, being young, naive and full of convictions about how the world works. He'd start his journey at the same time as you (basically merging him, Cheren and Bianca into a single character) and he'd be very stubborn about making others see things his way. But through the course of the game, he meets different people and comes to understand that the world isn't as BLACK AND WHITE as he once thought.

Heck, maybe you could even keep Team Plasma in there as a group that worships the legendary dragons and wants to manipulate N into awakening them.

 

[Wukong]

Not disagreeing with the logic here, I think N is probably the most compelling part about BW's story, but I'm not sure I'd say his arc is about about abuse when it comes up and is resolved in the last 10 minutes of the game. The reveal doesn't frame his past actions in a more interesting way (unlike Lillie, for exemple) other than saying "I guess you never had to take him seriously lol"

If I were to write this story, I'd make N closer to the player character's age, being young, naive and full of convictions about how the world works. He'd start his journey at the same time as you (basically merging him, Cheren and Bianca into a single character) and he'd be very stubborn about making others see things his way. But through the course of the game, he meets different people and comes to understand that the world isn't as BLACK AND WHITE as he once thought.

Heck, maybe you could even keep Team Plasma in there as a group that worships the legendary dragons and wants to manipulate N into awakening them.

I agree with N probably being the most interesting part of BW1's story in concept, but badly botched in execution for the reasons you cited. Your proposed execution is a good thought as well. The more I think of it, the more I think BW1's story is astoundingly overrated to me (my unpopular opinion).

If anything, it's just further evidence that Pokemon as a franchise is better off focusing on gameplay rather than story. By focusing on the latter, Pokemon produced a ridiculous result like Ghetsis pulling an "it was me all along" tired act at the end, just completely undercutting N's motives in the process.

 

[QuentinQuonce]

X and Y also loves this messaging, which is... misguided, to say the least, when they try to apply this lesson to Lysandre, who's a genocidal maniac who decidedly does not have a point. Black and White at least gestures at an ethical dilemma - and while I don't think it's perfectly handled, I can accept that this is a game for children, and I respect what the story accomplishes from that lens. X and Y's chronic centrism seriously rubs me the wrong way, especially considering recent geopolitical events. No, both sides do not always have a point - Team Flare wants to wipe out 99% of the human population and 100% of the Pokemon population, and usher in an age of the 1%. You can't write Lysandre as a proponent of fascist rhetoric (ugly people, make the world beautiful again, etc.) and then act as if he somehow had something good to offer the world.





Even KISEKI, the song in the end credits, otherwise one of my favorite setpieces in the series:



Respecting other people's opinions is a valuable lesson to teach children, certainly. Yet when you construct a narrative where one side is represented by a bunch of genocidal lunatics who earnestly believe the world is fundamentally impure, and the other side is represented by people resisting against the notion of being killed en masse, that's an irresponsible message to start espousing! Lysandre can either be a tragic antihero with a point that we can take something from, or he can be an evil monster. You cannot write both. By comparison, N has a legitimate moral stake in the story, and is being actively manipulated by Ghetsis - his arc is all about overcoming that past abuse and seeing the world for himself. Lysandre has no arc because he's a megalomaniac - and that's a fine way to write a villain, but the narrative pretends after the fact that he was somehow just as good within as N was, and I can't respect that at all.

This also leads to the worst written dialogue in the entire series: Calem/Serena's battle at Victory Road. I already posted a snippet, but the full text is kinda necessary to understand what I mean:



This is nonsense. Complete, utter nonsense. These points do not connect to one another at all. It's a non-sequitur leading into another non-sequitur. "Maybe the fascists had a point" -> "standard Pokemon friendship talk"???? Calem/Serena's arc in general is generally bad - an NPC learning that they're an NPC in a Pokemon game is funny, but also leads to them feeling completely aimless - but this is supposed to be the capstone of their arc! And yet they say absolutely nothing of substance. And after the battle:



"We're alike because we're alike" I mean, yeah.

(Yes, I know this is neither an unpopular opinion nor strictly related to Team Plasma. I just started typing. Oopsie.)

Outside of the issue you highlighted, Calem/Serena's arc annoys me because the whole "my mum and dad are famous trainers so I should be good too! Oh, actually that's got nothing to do with me, I'm actually quite mid" idea is a compelling one on its own, but it sort of takes a backseat to them just trailing after the player. We never spend much/any time with their parents and they're not major figures in the region, so it just falls flat and doesn't really say much about them as people. Lots of characters have talented/notable parents - the protagonist in XY themselves does. But not all of them have that angst, so it's weird to bring it up as one of their motivations and then do so little with it.

 

[ant4456]

The reveal doesn't frame his past actions in a more interesting way (unlike Lillie, for exemple) other than saying "I guess you never had to take him seriously lol"

Lillie child abuse isn't a "reveal", or at least in the way N does it.

N has no signs of being abused until the end of the game where Ghetsis is like "Yeah I never cared about you, you are just my propagandist dumbass lol"

In the first island of SM, the reason I defend it as not being "All tutorials" is because the game spells out a lot of these things extremely early. When you go to the clothes shop, she mentions that her Mother is very controlling of her appearance, which is one of the first signs that her relationship with her Mom is bad.

Then she remains wary of Aether, and when we see Lusamine and Gladion, we can make out a lot of it pretty clearly far before the game spells it out.

The reason I said earlier that I think N isn't a good character is that his job is to be thought provoking and Ben-Shapiro(adjective)-the player, but the player doesn't really get much say + he doesn't give any real evidence.

In fact the game never gives an example for why Pokemon shouldn't be caught by humans. The first time you meet N he says "You are special or something, your Pokemon like you", which two things:

1. We just got it lol

2. IIRC canonically this is very soon after he starts his own journey, as a parallel.

Thus, since he was so sheltered and propagandized- we are one of the first non-Plasma people he actually talks to.

It is at this point that N should logically have even the slightest back and forth thought about why he believes what he does. Shit, maybe the several heart-to-hearts he has with the player should be about how maybe he is wrong.

Instead, he just continues believing it with no example and is only shaken when the game is like "Oh yeah he was abused that's why he believes this," which ALSO destroys the entire point of making a plot about this subject tbh.

I'm not someone who thinks Pokemon training should be immoral in the universe, but if you're gonna tackle the topic then you should actually have a real conversation about it in the game, even if it ends with agreeing with the status quo of the franchise. But we don't get any argument, or anything, and yet the lyrics to the anime's intro in the West is "It's not all Black and White"

WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT THIS ENTIRE PLOT IS BLACK AND WHITE

 

[Sonikku A]

I agree with N probably being the most interesting part of BW1's story in concept, but badly botched in execution for the reasons you cited. Your proposed execution is a good thought as well. The more I think of it, the more I think BW1's story is astoundingly overrated to me (my unpopular opinion).

If anything, it's just further evidence that Pokemon as a franchise is better off focusing on gameplay rather than story. By focusing on the latter, Pokemon produced a ridiculous result like Ghetsis pulling an "it was me all along" tired act at the end, just completely undercutting N's motives in the process.

I lost it at

Spoilers

the photoshopped Cyrus face on Lysandre

I feel Pokemon has a chance of decent villains if they bother actually having the player engaged. The ScVio DLCs actually surprised me with the char being an actual char as opposed to >just stares as Lillie talks all over you. The "the world is imperfect" schtick seriously got old, and negatively reminds me how ORAS rewrote Archie/Macie to deliberately want to nuke the world instead of just simply being stupid. Not that OG RS was good for the villains, but it says a lot

The other issue, fighting the enemy team very rarely has a difference to fighting a random trainer. They don't do anything underhanded besides Protect/Double Team spam I guess. Like, imagine if Cursed Lusamine was a boss with 6 "moves" that you gang up on, and then in its final stretches it summons backup monsters while it recooperates. Would've been way more interesting than...well this

Like the Totem esque stat boost is fine, but it's still just singles, with the mons being fairly typical. The fact they can't even ZMove is sad

The Raids battles and Eternemax/Star Revaroom in recent Gens seems like they're testing waters at least...

Lusamine herself unfortunately was retconned from being fully bad with USUM/Anime/Masters, so I feel the complaint of the NPC being way too complicit to Lysandre is partially related. They don't want truly bad just for bad villains. Volo seems to be an exception, but then they just fucking did what the meme vid I just posted showed. And then Rose and Sada/Turo are silly, though at the least the latter is remotely interesting...if not for the disappointing Terapagos part

I dunno, I feel just going "they should only focus on gameplay only" when they still bungle that or are too repitive for mon archetypes doesn't help. They seem....scared

 

[Bakugames]

i think the failures of bw are because they didnt want to concede a single inch to the argument of owning and battling with pokemon is immoral, rather it felt more like a game made to completely beat down the argument by attaching it to the worst kind of people morals wise. which then brings the point: why make a fucking game about it then lmao. the only people who actually took "pokemon is cockfighting" seriously were 50 year olds, edgelords who still played and interacted with games and... peta. who made a parody of it FOR bw, the game trying to clear the franchise of those accusations.

 

[Adeleine]

X and Y also loves this messaging, which is... misguided, to say the least, when they try to apply this lesson to Lysandre, who's a genocidal maniac who decidedly does not have a point. Black and White at least gestures at an ethical dilemma - and while I don't think it's perfectly handled, I can accept that this is a game for children, and I respect what the story accomplishes from that lens. X and Y's chronic centrism seriously rubs me the wrong way, especially considering recent geopolitical events. No, both sides do not always have a point - Team Flare wants to wipe out 99% of the human population and 100% of the Pokemon population, and usher in an age of the 1%. You can't write Lysandre as a proponent of fascist rhetoric (ugly people, make the world beautiful again, etc.) and then act as if he somehow had something good to offer the world.





Even KISEKI, the song in the end credits, otherwise one of my favorite setpieces in the series:



Respecting other people's opinions is a valuable lesson to teach children, certainly. Yet when you construct a narrative where one side is represented by a bunch of genocidal lunatics who earnestly believe the world is fundamentally impure, and the other side is represented by people resisting against the notion of being killed en masse, that's an irresponsible message to start espousing! Lysandre can either be a tragic antihero with a point that we can take something from, or he can be an evil monster. You cannot write both. By comparison, N has a legitimate moral stake in the story, and is being actively manipulated by Ghetsis - his arc is all about overcoming that past abuse and seeing the world for himself. Lysandre has no arc because he's a megalomaniac - and that's a fine way to write a villain, but the narrative pretends after the fact that he was somehow just as good within as N was, and I can't respect that at all.

This also leads to the worst written dialogue in the entire series: Calem/Serena's battle at Victory Road. I already posted a snippet, but the full text is kinda necessary to understand what I mean:



This is nonsense. Complete, utter nonsense. These points do not connect to one another at all. It's a non-sequitur leading into another non-sequitur. "Maybe the fascists had a point" -> "standard Pokemon friendship talk"???? Calem/Serena's arc in general is generally bad - an NPC learning that they're an NPC in a Pokemon game is funny, but also leads to them feeling completely aimless - but this is supposed to be the capstone of their arc! And yet they say absolutely nothing of substance. And after the battle:



"We're alike because we're alike" I mean, yeah.

(Yes, I know this is neither an unpopular opinion nor strictly related to Team Plasma. I just started typing. Oopsie.)

A lot of what you say is just straight up facts, and the material you reference has bothered me for a while. Nonsense is right, and I have no intent of justifying that material.* However, this view is also missing some context, some other XY material that actually says something worthwhile. As a narrative piece, Lysandre does have points, and points I find compelling, at least by Pokemon standards. I'm going to sketch out the case for "XY has a real and decent narrative". The narrative, when I conveniently forget the junk, goes like this:

*Edit: From running through this analysis, while I still agree that a lot of the material you described is nonsense, I think I can get closer to understanding what caused these mistakes to happen. There are a couple bits of it I think make sense in context of the bigger XY narrative I construct, and I include a couple here.

1) Someone can have passion and good intents but still fall into the wrong beliefs. Lysandre's idea of beauty is sloppy. The future catastrophe he crows about is just one possibility, and not the current reality. Nobody is perfectly mature, smart, or moral.

Diantha (Café Soleil): "What a strange question... Why would I want to play the same old roles forever? Youth may be beautiful, but it's not all there is to life. Everything changes. I want to live and change like that, too. So I look forward to playing different roles as I get older."
Sycamore (Couriway Town): "And maybe someday the population of people and Pokémon will actually increase to where resources become very scarce. If someone acts out of greed in such a world, surely some will go without. If all living things keep acting that way, there will be nothing left at all in the end. Why, there won't even be anything left to steal, will there?"
Lysandre (Lysandre Café): "Kalos is beautiful right now! There will be no foolish actions if the number of people and Pokémon do not increase. That being said, the future isn't decided. You can't be sure each day will be like the one before."

2) A risk is someone believes only they are able or worthy to advance the cause they're passionate about. Instead of working alongside other people and listening to them, like a leader, they try and solve everything on their own. When they fail, they may just keep hammering on alone instead of seeking help.

This is bad, in part because other people can point out things you don't know, problems in your beliefs. No one person is smart enough, or whatever, to solve everything.

Lysandre (Lysandre Labs): I tried to save people--and the world--with the profit from this lab. But my efforts had no effect... The world was just too vast...and too full of fools that I couldn't save through my hard work alone. That's why I decided the only way to save the world was to take it all for myself.

Lysandre (Team Flare Secret HQ): "So THIS is the mighty (Xerneas / Yveltal)?! I expected more from a Pokémon called a legend! You desire help from people? YOU need help from a human?

Calem / Serena (Team Flare Secret HQ): "You don't have to worry about the future all alone... Shouldn't everyone work together to make a beautiful world?"
Calem / Serena (Victory Road): So I decided that from now on, I don't want to battle just to win but to see how you and your Pokémon think and feel!

(See also the Diantha quote, and Sycamore lamenting he didn't talk with Lysandre.)

3) When you think you can solve everything on your own, instead of listening to other people, you're being egotistical.

If you always refuse to put aside your ego and listen, your actions reveal that your ego is actually what is most important to you, not your stated beliefs.

Sycamore (Couriway Town): "But what I really wanted was for [Lysandre] to put his ego aside and lead everything to greater heights."

4) As you continue to prioritize your ego over everything else, you become the villain. You become entitled and surround yourself with flunkies for validation. You abandon your past beliefs, destroy what you used to care about, and become like those you despise.

Lysandre (Lysandre Labs): "I tried to save people--and the world--with the profit from this lab. But my efforts had no effect... The world was just too vast...and too full of fools that I couldn't save through my hard work alone. That's why I decided the only way to save the world was to take it all for myself."

Compare this to earlier, at Lysandre Cafe:

"I want to be the kind of person who gives... But in this world, some foolish humans exist who would show their strength by taking what isn't theirs.""They're filth!"

""Long, long ago, the king of Kalos sought to take everything for his own, and he created a terrible weapon."

(Lysandre is happy that the weapon cleaned that era's filth, but he frames this as a fortunate coincidence that came from a selfish-minded king, not a good king who made a necessary judgment call. He also he claims Kalos is not like that now, not requiring "foolish actions".

Only as he descends into ego does he believe Kalos is guaranteed to get worse and/or unsustainable right now, ignoring the possibility that things get better in the future. See his late-game dialogue for this.)

5) There's no good endgame to pursuing ego over all else. You can get defeated by opponents, but even when you succeed, you become a pitiful, disrespected soul who makes massive sacrifices for nothing worthwhile. However, maybe failure can allow you to realize what really matters.

Sycamore (Couriway Town): "And by stopping Team Flare, you also saved Lysandre. I always knew that he desired a beautiful world..."

Lysandre (Team Flare Secret HQ): "Pokémon... Shall no longer exist. Pokémon are wonderful beings. Humans have worked with Pokémon, and we have helped each other flourish. But precisely because of that, they will inevitably become tools for war and theft!"

(I'm struggling to find the quotes for this, but Team Flare members repeatedly diss / disobey Lysandre, clearly not caring for any altruism he may have had.)