And why before snealer are banned to uber, why i use snealer without unbunder instead okidogi, same type, more bulk, better abilitie and knock off that snealer no learn (instead use shadow claro or throath chop), and okidogi can use a guard dog set with bulk UP to Block intimidate and roar or resembling moves and draining punch to recover life and can use poison fang to has 50% chance to poison badly the foe
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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4
- Thread starter TPP
- Start date
Zapdos, Iron Crown, Skele all probably even better than those. Also, please refer questions like this here: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/simple-questions-simple-answers-thread.3710772/
Waterpon is way stronger than Rockpon. Better coverage with Water+Grass being perfect aside from Pokemon that don’t like coverage options like Play Rough, U-Turn, or Knock Off. Water Absorb is massive against certain threats and weather teams, too, but Water being far easier to spam Ivy with than Rock due to lack of resists is the biggest selling point. Ogerpon-Wellspring also has a better defensive typing. The two aren’t particularly close honestly.
I mean it was banned because of Unburden sets, so you kind of answered your question there. With this said, the two are vastly different Pokemon with totally different niches, so I don’t think your comparison is too sound.
The only aport of grass to water is beat other water and water beat fire and hit neutral 4 of 7 type that resist grass, but 4 beacuse 1 is fire and the other 2 are grass and Dragon, hydraple with heavy duty buts and redentor can Wall ogerpon without u-turn or play rough, and in the case of she has, he has +100 defense and very close hp to endure the necesary hit to click leaf storm or dragon stab, or a grass poison or grass Steel in Nat dex with ferrothorn can due the same without the bug or fairy weakness, and the 4 atacks set can't have sword dance, the rock pon can have sword dance, yvy crudgel, horn leech, and superpower or knock off and is Hard to switch to she after sword dance and why tera, rock stabs is a deleted button and horn leech and defense boost is for a large durability
This is SV OU discussion. Ferrothorn doesn’t exist, Hydrapple hardly ever sees usage, and SD+PR or U-Turn variants are exceedingly common. I implore you to play the tier and try it out; it is universally agreed upon to be stronger than Cornerstone. Cornerstone is a fine Pokemon still, but it’s clearly short of Wellspring’s viability.
Finchinator a common complaint to us gen is that the skill floor is quite high both building and playing. Does that play a role in tiering action at all or is that supposed to solve itself through suspect tests? I see a lot of top players sort of disgusted with lower level ones more so now than I have in the past and it feels like there’s a disconnect there.
I mean we have just as many — and sometimes more — people participating in suspects nowadays. Despite many calls to make reqs harder, we have kept them the same in a metagame where with enough reps, people should be able to attain 80 GXE if they’re experienced players. In my eyes, a higher GXE is needed to truly decipher tiering calls, but I wouldn’t push for it because excluding people who are seriously interested and have unique viewpoints wouldn’t be desired either.
With this in mind, there’s really not much we can do to cater further. Making reqs lower is a non-starter and would compromise tiering altogether. My main solution to this is just being communicative and helpful — people have questions, I fill-in knowledge gaps. People want to get reqs, I help them pick teams and ideas. People want to involve themselves, I try to set them up to do so. Etc.
Tera naturally requires a bit more foresight and reps, causing a slight curve favoring experienced players and those who have better gauge on long spanning risk-reward. But it’s still by no means unattainable to get good and we have seen more good players pop up this generation than any prior even.
Yeah I don’t think reqs should be touched or anything like that. I more meant just the idea behind tiering policy. I ask because I noticed in some top players comments on the survey they would say something like “anyone who complains about this is bad” lol
That is just how people behave on the internet
What sufficient evidence? You are merely making an assertion that I disagree with. Crabhammer has both lower accuracy and makes contact, making it far more susceptible to hax and helmet chip. As someone who loves Craudaunt, I can tell you spamming Crabhammer is much more difficult against certain team comps because of those two factors. It's a world of difference. Most of the time it gets a free move off, Crawdaunt spams Knock Off because of the utility of getting rid of items and the risk from Crabhammer. Water type Ivy Cudgel would be a huge game changer.
I don't know if it would specifically be OP in OU since it was never an OU mon, and this is where I feel these sorts of discussions can become a bit disingenuous, but it would certainly be a lot stronger. Ivy Cudgel is >> Crabhammer.
First of all, Pyro Ball is a 90% accurate move. It's not the same. It's not as reliable. It also has no effect against the Bulletproof ability. I love building with Ace, and I can tell you I lost a ton of games off of Pyroball misses.
Diamond Storm is a better argument, except even that is 95% accurate and has a chance to miss. The 50% defense boost chance is still awesome, though. Diance is held back by its speed and typing. If it was OU level or on a better mon, we would probably be talking about it.
Ivy Cudgel is on 4 mons (or at least version of it) that, if not outright OU level, are very usable in OU. One is banned, another is maybe on the way, and then Cornerstone is highly underrated at the very least.
Again, the insane BP of V-create is balanced by substantial downsides. The recurring penalties to speed and defenses are severe. It makes it really only feasible to throw off one or maybe two before you have to switch. Fishious Rend can be spammed much easier.
Moyashi correctly pointed out that having to move first is a downside, but it is far easier to control that. And hat are we talking about here? Only going back down to the BP of liquidation? Most physical water types have that as like their normal Water STAB.
While this is true, my issue is these mons are clearly not OU level with or without the move. Primeape and Arctovish are just bad mons. So judging them by OU standards is tricky. Shadow Tag probably wouldn't be broken on, say, Sunflora. Does that mean we would have never come to the conclusion it was broken?
You left out the contact part as well, which further limits things like helmet chip or Flame Body. I already mentioned how this further limits counterplay options. The two things combined can make a world of difference.
As for Cudgel in general, higher BP means that the bonus multipliers also become more effective. Normally, this is balanced out by downsides. The lack of downsides makes it very consistent and hard to stop for a move of that BP.
While this is true, there are a two main issues. The first is we are still primarily talking about wallbreaking here. The mons using FR and BB would still be faster than most walls. However, all those mons also had the option to use their ability boost their speed tiers with weather. This means they could potentially outspeed more mons than you might expect. You don't get to use Strong Jaw or Nuzzle at the same time, but you do have control over what combination of speed and/or power you are building for.
This seems overly handwavy, particularly in respects to wallbreaking. Even if it doesn't make for most frail or even average bulk mons, it would likely make a difference for bulkier mons and resists.
Higher BP means a higher bonus multiplier AND a higher starting point when adding those bonus multipliers. A 50% STAB bonus on 150 BP is only 225 compared to 255 with 170 BP. A 20 BP difference becomes a 30 BP difference, and then, the gap continues to increase with each bonus multiplier. Add an item, an ability, and maybe even a weather or terrain effect, and the differences between the two starting points will become greater and greater.
Is Last Respects not objectively broken? Is Shed Tail not objectively broken? Do I actually need to prove those two? I shouldn't need to. We can debate the others, I guess, but there should be an upper limit somewhere here on moves that are obviously problematic from a competitive stand point.
And the reason why I'm looking at these moves in a vacuum is because tiering policy encourages us to literally never do that. While I understand that context is important, sometimes there is a tendency to use that as an excuse to overlook the moves themselves. Personally, I think we should do both and then make an informed decision on it.
Something like Last Respects taken to an extreme would suggest that move could be balanced if it was on a slow, frail, and weak mon. If it was given to something like Tropius instead of Baculegion, would we claim Last Respects wasn't OP because it didn't "break" a ZU mon in Tropius at an OU level? To me, this is where it gets really silly.
Annihilape would probably still have a place as a bulky spin blocker. It would still be pretty strong, IMO. Leftovers and Phantom Force could probably be pretty good, particularly on Grassy Terrain. Waterpon would still be usable with Tera Blast, maybe, but it would become even more of a Tera hog. Sure, those mismatched fossils would all have been worthless. Not sure about the other two.
That's kinda besides the point, though. It's about balance. If moves are clearly unbalanced, we should be able to say so. I do agree that there are cases where some mons rely on a move that would be too strong for others and it winds up being ok. That's fine to a point. I just think there should be limits to that.
i would support more signature move bans but i feel like there has to be explicit criteria for when a move ban is considered over a mon ban. like i think it makes sense to do it in the case of something like houndstone where the mon is obviously awful and just has a move that would be broken on nearly anything else, but cases like electro shot or ivy cudgel feel less clear cut to me. they're good moves but i could see a lot of mons getting them and being fair, so would the moves just be banned because they're signatures? even something like rage fist could fall into this category. i think move bans should only really be considered when the move itself is clearly broken or promotes degenerate playstyles, like last respects or shed tail. something just being pretty crazy on an already good mon doesn't feel worthy of a unique ban IMO
A bit late here but,
252+ Atk Kingambit Low Kick (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Probopass: 328-388 (101.2 - 119.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO.
Yes its not the most common move on gambit and you can fighting tera out of it, but again, single most important resource.
If there's one constant of Pokemon, it's that people will dig out some 'mon with less than zero usage and then tinker with it until it beats/trades with the top threat in the tier with complete consistency. Actual RBY Porygon Vs Snorlax ass matchup.
okay uh... you realize that you're asking for evidence while making claims without any evidence yourself, just making your own assertations and standing as though they're a standard held belief by the average person.
You also care FAR too much about non 100% accuracy on moves as if not having it drastically knocks them down in overall strength. Pyro Ball is a terrific move by itself that stands on par with Fire Type Ivy Cudgel (not factoring the mask boost since we're talking about these in a vacuum), and the 20% burn chance is nasty and elevates its uses.
LR is broken because the design around it promotes less competitive gameplay and less player interaction while rewarding low skill play. Shed Tail meanwhile was NOT objectively broken and actively had to be proven to be an overall unbalanced move through time with Orthworm which took time and research and experimentation to prove.
You haven't really given an actual reason as to why you want to ban moves instead of mons. You can't in good faith look at a move without the context around it because then a lot of things look more powerful than they are in practice. Context is important for honest discussion and judging of something. Moves DON'T exist in a vacuum in this game.
Well no, Ape wouldn't really work. The lack of a good physical ghost stab limits it severely if you were to ban Rage Fist. Phantom Force is NOT an acceptable alternative, we've seen this with Dragapult. The move is infamously not good and not recommended for a reason. Waterpon would not bother with Tera Blast because at that point being auto locked into running it for a stab move AND having to tera to have it, would massively restrict building to use it and not make it worth.
If moves are clearly unbalanced like LR is, sure. But that standard is very high because you can't just argue something is broken because it does big damage and has no drawbacks. LR gave far too great a reward for so little risk. Ivy Cudgel is just a strong move. Electro Shot is just a good move that is enabled by the owner having the typing and bulk to abuse it well. There's much more to something being broken than just "strong".
Tacking on random outside factors like weather, items and terrain or abilities will make a lot of moves look crazy strong. I mean Facade becomes a cracked 140BP move and often on Guts users, meaning its power is technically even higher than most moves. That doesn't make it broken.
It's worth noting that the context of the team was a pairing with Dual Screens + Parting Shot Grimmsnarl, which turns that from a clean OHKO into a clean 2HKO if it gets a good entry on Gambit. That said, he does mention that one exception in the RMT ("With max hp and max defense investment, Probopass can comfortably switch into non low kick variants of Kingambit and trap it with body press"), so I presume that he built his team with accounting for that in mind. And if you do get that entry point behind Reflect or off of Parting Shot or whatever, Low Kick on its own won't be enough to save it short of committing tera, as Probo's damage rolls with helmet chip kills the Kingambit dead.
Very funny matchup honestly. Big fan of random trappers.
I fear the crit me not sets mostly that abuse morning sun cosmic power tera whatever as that sounds registeel levels of cancerous and it gets stored power.
Like that is some demon shit that even lugia would envy since solgaleo can slot both defense boosts into its moveset and use stored power, and on top of that has coverage to deal with gambit and stuff.
This thing would be even stronger than Lugia in an OU context I feel like which is already kinda busted with tera and the current environment
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This was a response to A_Wild_Noob_Appeared! and one particular claim they made as "irrefutable evidence." I disputed that claim and gave reasoning for that. No, it is not proof. But I do have experience using Crawdaunt and it's obvious it would be better with cudgel. I also did not call my counterassertion "irrefutable evidence."
I have specifically stated what I believe to be wrong with these moves and why. You can disagree with that reasoning, but you are acting here like I never cited any of these examples or discussed nuances around them.
I have used Cinderace a lot. I haven't exactly kept track of how many games have I lost due to misses versus won due to burns, but it would easily have to be losses due to misses. The burn chance is 10%, by the way. It's about the same percentage chance statistically. The difference is a miss often means the frail Ace is in danger of being KO'd in return. Burns are great, and a slight burn chance is very common on fire moves, but what mon you randomly get a burn on would change exactly how impactful that is. The weight of these things aren't equal.
If you don't agree that Shed Tail is inherently broken then we have irreconcilable differences on this. Baton Pass was not only banned because of the stat boost spreading. Being able to switch into a sub is hugely overpowered in a singles pokemon format. From there, the receiving mon gets a free turn to setup or whatever. Free turns are extremely valuable in turn based games. I don't need proof for that last sentence, do I?
You could theoretically put Last Respects on a Sunkurn and call it not broken because the mon sucks. This is why I think there should be limits.
First of all, I'm not saying to ignore the context. I'm just saying not to put blinders on for the sake of said context. As I stated earlier, I believe we should look at the moves both with the pokemon and in a vacuum.
Second, I specifically stated I'm not trying to retroactively change past decisions. I'm discussing them as examples to illustrate my point. My primary concern is what happens in the future with power creep and the continued introduction of more and more outlandish moves.
I just disagree. Pult is a glass cannon with no staying power. Ape is slower and bulky. It is a different kind of pokemon with a lot of different moves it can run, like Drain Punch, Stealth Rock, or Final Gambit. Fighting/Ghost is one of the best STAB combinations there is. This would leave Phantom Force, Tera Ghost, or Shadow Claw as the only options for Ghost STAB. IMO, Phantom Force would be workable on some sets. The rest would run Shadow Claw since you would probably want a defensive Tera.
Waterpon could still deal high damage with Tera Water and the mask item. It just wouldn't be as ridiculous as it is now. It also would be a bit less flexible because of Tera Blast. I don't personally think it would be unusable.
Now we are getting somewhere. I can accept a high bar like Last Respects.
I understand that my opinion on Ivy Cudgel is minority. That's fine. I never advocated for Electroshot as inherently broken. I guess some other folks did. Where the line is drawn is ultimately not as much my concern as that we actually draw it.
These aren't random factors. For somebody so keen on context, you seem to be ignoring a lot of that here. The fish-dino fossils had abilities that could further power up their moves or boost their speed. If you ran Dracovish in the rain, it could deal especially devastating damage. If you ran it in the sand, it could be faster and capitalize on the move first condition more. These aren't random factors. They are things the player could gameplan around with the move and mons using it in mind. Context.
Because the possibility of more bonus multipliers scales better the higher the BP, the amount of them becomes more important later on. So saying you can potentially have STAB, and item, an ability, and outside weather and/or terrain all giving bonus modifiers isn't random. It's by design from a competent player abusing the mechanics. When Ogerpon uses their STAB bonus, mask item bonus, and Tera's stupid same type bonus to further boost the power of Iy Cudgel, these are not random factors. They add up from the BP of the moves. The higher the BP, the more impactful all those bonus multipliers.
Is Facade broken? No. I don't think so. It is a move that requires you to be statused, which is a significant downside. Guts takes most of that away, but only for certain mons that are balanced with that ability in mind in the first place and then run an item like Flame Orb. Running Flame Orb means you cannot then also run an item like Choice Band to further add bonus multipliers. The ability and item are working together, but not multiplicatively the same way something like Strong Jaw + Choice Band could.
140 conditional BP is also a lot lower than, say, 170 conditional BP, particularly when you start adding in the modifiers. Normal type moves cannot be further boosted by terrain or weather, either, which is another important factor. You might say what about Alolan Golem, which can turn Facade Electric type. But Alolan Golem does not have Guts. So it cannot then run Galvanize with a Guts bonus. Running a Flame Orb would weaken all its other physical attacks, too. There are more inherent balances built into something like Facade.
Meanwhile, Fishious Rend could be boosted by STAB, Strong Jaw, the item, and maybe even rain. Depending on the set, it could have anywhere from 2-4 bonus multipliers added on top of that BP that is already starting out 30 BP higher than Facade. These are not random factors. This is unbalanced game design.
I don't take CTC that seriously since the gouging fire suspect tbh even if he's a good player
not gonna take this slander solgaleo would be broken in OU for entirely different reasons
What do you want me to do? He faced the full consequences of his actions and is now allowed back on the forums. If you have any issues with that, it goes beyond my council or OU -- it would be a Smogon wide thing at that point.
I am engaging with him -- mainly disagreeing -- like any other member of the forums who posts a serious proposal. It is literally my job to do this and ignoring it would not be fair to him or the community as a whole, who deserves the best tiering practices and fair discussion of serious prospects.
If he gets removed again, I will no longer engage with him. If he remains unbanned and stays behaved, I will continue to. It is that simple.
That's a problem for mods and the mods gave what they thought was suitable as a punishment, you're free to debate whether being permanently ICBB'd and one step away from being banned is too little but he made a proposal as a recognizable member of the community and it would be a disservice, as Finch stated, to not hear him out.
It doesn't get stored power in gen 9 huh, either way crit me not Solgaleo sounds extremely unpleasant to deal with
If a user is not banned and has access to a forum, they should logically be allowed to post in that forum and be taken seriously if their post is not inflammatory.
Everyone has a chance to change their ways after all and become more respectful after all, it would be unfair to not give CTC that chance even if he ends up being disrespectful again. People change so him getting another chance is fair by that logic, and he hasn't done anything wrong yet. Just because his opinions were kinda ass doesn't give mods the right to kick him off the forums because we disagree.