Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4

[Avira]

I don't think we should be looking at signature moves. Fishous Rend was not a broken move. Dracovish was broken because of its good offensive/defensive typing with good coverage options along with the interaction with Strong Jaw with most of its kit and its usable speed tier (by Gen 8 standards). Arctovish blew and sucked even though it had Fishous Rend.

Electro Shot would not be a problem on a mon that didn't have Archaludon's high BST and insane bulk that is complemented by Stamina.

Ivy Cudgel is not broken. It's moreso the mask bonus, the +1 boost to Ogerpon-Hearthflame's Attack when it Teras, and the strong STABs in general with other serviceable options it had (Knock Off, Encore, Play Rough) that made it broken, and the Wellspring form, if it is banned, will be banned for similar reasons. Ogerpon-Cornerstone isn't a top mon even in UU, and base Ogerpon is just not broken at all.

Last Respects was just so obviously broken it needed to be banned, but this doesn't apply to most signature moves.

Smogon's tiering framework from the past is sound and is reliable. Yes, Gen 9 has more offensive and defensive powercreep than ever, but that doesn't mean that all of the powercreep should be accepted. I believe with Darkrai and maybe Kyurem gone that SV OU will be in a really great spot. Gliscor will still have things that can punish it, such as Ogerpon-Wellspring, Dragapult (Hex and Choice Specs), Rillaboom, Meowscarada, Weavile, Enamorus, Iron Valiant (Encore), Dondozo, Corviknight, and Skarmory. There are also Air Balloon wallbreakers, and UU options such as Pelipper, Latios, Base Ogerpon (Encore), Keldeo, Rotom-Wash, Ursaluna, Zarude, and Weezing-Galar. And this is excluding Pokemon who can Tera to beat it. And if Gliscor happens to be broken after Darkrai and Kyurem is gone, we can just ban Gliscor, although I doubt it'll be broken. I do believe if there is a defensive mon that merits banning that it's Gliscor, not Garganacl (lol, never).

 

[Karxrida]

Last Respects was just so obviously broken it needed to be banned, but this doesn't apply to most signature moves.

I still think Houndstone was incredibly overrated because Kingambit exists, doing the same thing and more with less maintenance. Houndstone (or the move) didn't need to be banned tbh but w/e.

 

[burstslinky]

I still think Houndstone was overrated as fuck because Kingambit exists and it (or the move) didn't need to be banned but w/e.

tera fighting. tera blast. i think we have an understanding

 

[Karxrida]

tera fighting. tera blast. i think we have an understanding

It also has no way to boost its Attack outside of items, so its power is all-in on Last Respects. Fail to oneshot something for any reason and the sweep is probably over.

Edit: forgot about Howl, but you're still probably banking on Sand Rush and can't afford to lose turns there.

 

[Avira]

I still think Houndstone was incredibly overrated because Kingambit exists, doing the same thing and more with less maintenance. Houndstone (or the move) didn't need to be banned tbh but w/e.

252 Atk Choice Band Tera Fighting Houndstone Last Respects (300 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Kingambit: 262-309 (76.8 - 90.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Tera Fighting Houndstone Tera Blast (80 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Kingambit: 564-664 (165.3 - 194.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Black Glasses Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Tera Fighting Houndstone: 115-136 (40.3 - 47.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

I don't know about that. This looks plenty strong to me given Kingambit's 100/120 physical bulk and resistance to Ghost. It would be hella oppressive to face in actual games. This kind of power would force every team to have a Tera Normal user. Even Uber players banned Last Respects 'cause they didn't want to be forced to slot in a Tera Normal for Basculegion.

 

[Moyashi]

It also has no way to boost its Attack outside of items, so its power is all-in on Last Respects. Fail to oneshot something for any reason and the sweep is probably over.

CB Hound on sand could roll over anything realistically and needed very specific counterplay to even stand a chance. it was super super fishy and not at all desirable a presence and I'm glad it was canned when it was. The Kingambit comparison doesn't even work when Gambit has straightforward accessible counterplay found on a wide range of teams and it has to work for that sweep while houndstone teams could just final gambit or memento or explode to boost LR and then set sand so it could just run teams over.

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

I still think Houndstone was incredibly overrated because Kingambit exists, doing the same thing and more with less maintenance. Houndstone (or the move) didn't need to be banned tbh but w/e.

last respects got banned from random battles, the single most permissive meta that still occasionally bans things. they tolerated dynamax last gen and until recently they allowed moody, including in the gens before it got nerfed. they had to punt houndstone down to the low level 60s and it still wasn't enough. if something gets kicked out of randbats, it's not just broken, it's fundamentally incompatible with 6v6 singles as a format

 

[Karxrida]

252 Atk Choice Band Tera Fighting Houndstone Last Respects (300 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Kingambit: 262-309 (76.8 - 90.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Tera Fighting Houndstone Tera Blast (80 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Kingambit: 564-664 (165.3 - 194.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Black Glasses Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Tera Fighting Houndstone: 115-136 (40.3 - 47.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

I don't know. This looks plenty strong to me given Kingambit's 100/120 physical bulk and resistance to Ghost. It would be hella oppressive to face in actual games. This kind of power would force every team to have a Tera Normal user. Even Uber players banned Last Respects 'cause they didn't want to be forced to slot in a Tera Normal for Basculegion.

Literal best case scenario calcs are not indicative of a normal game state. A Sand Rush Houndstone is still slow enough that it'll almost certainly be chipped before Kingambit comes in, and if you are running Band you're absolutely not going to be able to Tera Blast it. You also have to throw away your entire team (including your Sand setter) to get to this point and pray nothing interrupts you at all.

CB Hound on sand could roll over anything realistically and needed very specific counterplay to even stand a chance. it was super super fishy and not at all desirable a presence and I'm glad it was canned when it was. The Kingambit comparison doesn't even work when Gambit has straightforward accessible counterplay found on a wide range of teams and it has to work for that sweep while houndstone teams could just final gambit or memento or explode to boost LR and then set sand so it could just run teams over.

Kingambit is obviously weaker and has more counterplay, but it's also far more flexible and not restricted to a specific team setup that has like half a dozen things that stop it cold.

Also fwiw I'm not actually calling for an unban at this time since I know it's not what the meta needs. I'm just grumbling because I feel like the community overreacted to Houndstone like they did with Gouging Fire, but didn't give it a chance like the latter.

last respects got banned from random battles, which tolerated dynamax last gen. they had to nerf houndstone down to the low level 60s and it still wasn't enough. if something gets kicked out of randbats, it's not just broken, it's fundamentally incompatible with 6v6 singles as a format

Randbats is also a weird af format and not comparable to OU in any conceivable way.

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

Literal best case scenario calcs are not indicative of a normal game state. A Sand Rush Houndstone is still slow enough that it'll almost certainly be chipped before Kingambit comes in, and if you are running Band you're absolutely not going to be able to Tera Blast it. You also have to throw away your entire team (including your Sand setter) to get to this point and pray nothing interrupts you at all.


Kingambit is obviously weaker and has more counterplay, but it's also far more flexible and not restricted to a specific team setup that has like half a dozen things that stop it cold.

Also fwiw I'm not actually calling for an unban at this time since I know it's not what the meta needs. I'm just grumbling because I feel like the community overreacted to Houndstone like they did with Gouging Fire, but didn't give it a chance like the latter.


Randbats is also a weird af format and not comparable to OU in any conceivable way.

respectfully, if you consider last respects to have ever been even remotely acceptable in this meta, or the entire format of 6v6 singles, you should probably find a new hobby. banning it at the first available opportunity was the correct move

 

[Avira]

On the topic of Solgaleo given some players want to unban it, I had a look at its movepool, and I see it has Metal Burst, and with the enormous bulk it has, it could trade favourably against pretty much any faster offensive mon. Having Metal Burst and reliable recovery could make this kind of set actually legit and one the many options a player has access to, making Solgaleo incredibly constraining to face due to how hard it is cover all of its sets. I do not think it would be a good idea to test it in OU.

 

[burstslinky]

respectfully, if you consider last respects to have ever been even remotely acceptable in this meta, or the entire format of 6v6 singles, you should probably find a new hobby. banning it at the first available opportunity was the correct move

bit of an overreaction, people are allowed to have their own opinions, even if they are wrong

Literal best case scenario calcs are not indicative of a normal game state. A Sand Rush Houndstone is still slow enough that it'll almost certainly be chipped before Kingambit comes in, and if you are running Band you're absolutely not going to be able to Tera Blast it. You also have to throw away your entire team (including your Sand setter) to get to this point and pray nothing interrupts you at all.

may i present to you this wonderful concept called "hazards" and "Probopass"

spike chips you in range of CB LR, and Probopass can trap and remove gambit


also what exactly stops it? ofc having a dedicated tera normal mon on every team so you dont auto lose is perfectly normal and healthy behavior for a metagame mmh

 

[Finchinator]

We need to work on not being rude to people with different opinions in this thread. Being a little snappy or taking a light shot is ok, but putting someone's competency or character into question over disagreements, even if they are potentially wrong, is not worthwhile.

There is always a person who has the same goal as you -- to enjoy this game -- on the other side of every post, respons, interaction, etc. Let's keep that in mind here. Thanks!

 

[Bold School]

I don't think anyone particularly missed Chien Pao, or Gliscor in DLC 1?

Yes, I missed having a Ground/Flying that wasn't Coackroach-T. Chien Pao was nonsense. Gliscor in DLC1 was a red herring for spikes. Call it a nitpick if you like, but I still disagree with that ban. It might be the only banned mon I particularly disagreed with. But I cannot let the Gliscor disrespect slide.

I don't think we should be looking at signature moves. Fishous Rend was not a broken move. Dracovish was broken because of its good offensive/defensive typing with good coverage options along with the interaction with Strong Jaw with most of its kit and its usable speed tier (by Gen 8 standards). Arctovish blew and sucked even though it had Fishous Rend.

Electro Shot would not be a problem on a mon that didn't have Archaludon's high BST and insane bulk that is complemented by Stamina.

Ivy Cudgel is not broken. It's moreso the mask bonus, the +1 boost to Ogerpon-Hearthflame's Attack when it Teras, and the strong STABs in general with other serviceable options it had (Knock Off, Encore, Play Rough) that made it broken, and the Wellspring form, if it is banned, will be banned for similar reasons. Ogerpon-Cornerstone isn't a top mon even in UU, and base Ogerpon is just not broken at all.

Last Respects was just so obviously broken it needed to be banned, but this doesn't apply to most signature moves.

I don't know about this. Fishious Rend and Ivy Cudgel seem pretty busted to me. I've said my piece on Ivy Cudgel before, It is pretty far and away better than most moves of the types it can be when you factor in the crit chance and lack of downsides like lower accuracy or contact. It's also really strong on Cornerstone. And no actually, Cornerstone is still very good in OU and would see more usage if Wellspring was ever banned. Not a perfect 1 to 1 thing. It's still a very strong move on a strong mon. A lot of people disagree with me on the OP part, but I want it on record that Cornerstone is a bit of a sleeping giant.

IMO, both Fishious Rend and Bolt Beak are non-competitive levels of wallbreaking moves from any sort of objective game design standpoint. Most doubling moves like Acrobatics and Knock off are more like 55 BP or 65 BP before they double. 85 BP then double is crazy. A least it's a little easier to get an immunity for Bolt Beak. I feel like the main reason it wasn't banned is because Arctovish is a useless slow Ice type. I know that's how the tiering policy works, but I think sometimes we should be able to look at things that are objectively broken and at least say so.

Then there was Shed Tail, which was clearly going to be broken if anybody remembers Baton Pass shenanigans. Pivoting with a sub should never be considered competitive, signature move or not.

I will also add that Rage Fist seems pretty dumb to me. We all know it was balanced for doubles where there can be less deaths and so on. I know, I know, Primeape. But when has Primeape, which is no longer eve a fully evolved pokemon, ever been close to OU caliber? I know this goes against tiering policy, but I think it maybe could have benefited the tier more to keep Annihilape with no Rage Fist than to keep the move for a ZU mon.

Before someone tries to argue with me about it, let me clarify that I am NOT advocating for any sort of retroactive bans or other nonsense. Nor am I advocating to change any current decisions in place right now. I'm just saying that, in the future, maybe we should look at the moves themselves with a bit less intentional blinders on. That's not meant to be an insult. It's just that the tiering policy encourages us to focus on the mon over the move to a fault sometimes, at least in my opinion. I know why we do it. But I do think we should at least look at them more given how bad power creep has been getting.

 

[Karxrida]

Before I continue to my response, I will own up to misreading the Showdown calculator's Speed readouts (I was looking at Enamorus with a Scarf and forgot the calc updates Speed stats based on items) and concede that Houndstone is much faster than I thought. However, this doesn't change my overall stance.

may i present to you this wonderful concept called "hazards" and "Probopass"

spike chips you in range of CB LR, and Probopass can trap and remove gambit

also what exactly stops it? ofc having a dedicated tera normal mon on every team so you dont auto lose is perfectly normal and healthy behavior for a metagame mmh

I mean this with complete sincerity and no sarcasm: how does Probopass consistently trap Kingambit? Especially since that's contributing to the teambuilding issue that running Houndstone involves. I'm genuinely curious. (Seriously I mean no disrespect here.)

Hazards go both ways and contributes to Houndstone getting chipped, putting it in range of KO. And if things get chipped enough then Last Respects becomes winmoar and you're better off with other cleaners like Deoxys-S anyway.

And you do not need to run Tera Normal on everything to stop a Houndstone. Darkrai and Meowscarda already run Scarf as their most common item (according to 1825 stats) and can easily KO. (If Houndstone Teras, Meow still removes the Band and opens up other options to not die to a max power LR.) Iron Valiant, Rillabloom and Raging Bolt KO with chip. Garganacl, Gliscor, and Ting-Lu can stall out Sand Rush turns. You can do funny Dragonite things. (This one does require Tera Normal, but you want to here so I think it's fine to mention lol.) If you run a weather team you're already set.

Options do exist here without hamstringing your teambuilding.

 

[Anchor9]

Before I continue to my response, I will own up to misreading the Showdown calculator's Speed readouts (I was looking at Enamorus with a Scarf and forgot the calc updates Speed stats based on items) and concede that Houndstone is much faster than I thought. However, this doesn't change my overall stance.


I mean this with complete sincerity and no sarcasm: how does Probopass consistently trap Kingambit? Especially since that's contributing to the teambuilding issue that running Houndstone involves. I'm genuinely curious. (Seriously I mean no disrespect here.)

Hazards go both ways and contributes to Houndstone getting chipped, putting it in range of KO. And if things get chipped enough then Last Respects becomes winmoar and you're better off with other cleaners like Deoxys-S anyway.

And you do not need to run Tera Normal on everything to stop a Houndstone. Darkrai and Meowscarda already run Scarf as their most common item (according to 1825 stats) and can easily KO. (If Houndstone Teras, Meow still removes the Band and opens up other options to not die to a max power LR.) Iron Valiant, Rillabloom and Raging Bolt KO with chip. Garganacl, Gliscor, and Ting-Lu can stall out Sand Rush turns. You can do funny Dragonite things. (This one does require Tera Normal, but you want to here so I think it's fine to mention lol.) If you run a weather team you're already set.

Options do exist here without hamstringing your teambuilding.

The main problem with unbanning Last Respects means the greatest abuser of the move gets it, Basculegion-M. It doesn’t need weather thanks to Agility, doesn’t need Band thanks to Adaptability (this means it can run HDB so hazards don’t really matter), can navigate around Sucker Punch with Tera Blast Fighting ( isn’t punishing since it doesn’t need to run Band), Aqua Jet, or Substitute, and has Wave Crash to do damage to Normal-types and nuke Ting-Lu. Basc-M was wrecking havoc in Ubers just some months ago before we gave it the boot.

Last Respects was banned with over 90% support in Ubers largely because of Basc-M. If Last Respects Basc-M was too much for Ubers, why would it be reasonable in OU? You can’t just ban Basc-M either, since Basc-F can fill this roll nearly as well with the exact same tools. It’s not really worth it to ban several otherwise balanced Mons to save a move. At its root, Last Respects is an uncompetitive move that rewards you for sacking your own Mons, which is why it should stay in AG.

 

[SittinGamer]

I now realize the moves I chose probably weren't good ones. Stuff like Ivy Cudgel is more akin to like, legendary signature moves, and most of those, while amazing in their own right, probably wouldn't make MOST pokemon that they're on that, that much worse. Please don't ratio me for not remembering some gen 7-9 signature move on a mon which started in ubers anyway. Dracovish is more akin to Gambit, where everything in the kit built together in an intentionally toxic way, but better moves to illustrate would have been those more akin to Last Respects or even Shed Tail, which was even a little less obvious. Something like Rage Fist, which intuitively won't be broken on something frail as paper, but is still a pretty clearly ridiculous move, where, if it had even decent distribution, it would almost certainly cause issues on more mons than just Annihilape.

I more meant to add to the sentiment in that thread that it may be time to become a bit more flexible on that front, even if its only for cases as obvious as Last Respects, where the 4 neurons bit from the PR thread is rather apt.

 

[Rekka's Backend]

Hey legitimate question, how the fuck did the bot pick a pokemon avatar to get in here?

 

[A_Wild_Noob_Appeared!]

I've said my piece on Ivy Cudgel before, It is pretty far and away better than most moves of the types it can be when you factor in the crit chance and lack of downsides like lower accuracy or contact.

If being a 100 BP attack with no drawbacks is enough to be "broken", then your standards for a move being broken are way too low. The Water-type form of Ivy Cudgel is just Crabhammer with an extra 10% accuracy and no contact. The Grass-type form of Ivy Cudgel is just Leaf Blade with an extra 10 BP and no contact. Are those differences really sufficient to call Ivy Cudgel "broken"? Would Ogerpon-Wellspring really change significantly if it had to use Crabhammer instead of Ivy Cudgel?

IMO, both Fishious Rend and Bolt Beak are non-competitive levels of wallbreaking moves from any sort of objective game design standpoint. Most doubling moves like Acrobatics and Knock off are more like 55 BP or 65 BP before they double. 85 BP then double is crazy. A least it's a little easier to get an immunity for Bolt Beak. I feel like the main reason it wasn't banned is because Arctovish is a useless slow Ice type. I know that's how the tiering policy works, but I think sometimes we should be able to look at things that are objectively broken and at least say so.

Fishious Rend's conditional 170 BP, while stronger than most moves, is not completely incomparable to other attacks. Eruption, Water Spout, Head Smash, and V-Create have comparable base power, and while these moves do have different drawbacks that complicate the comparison, it shows that a conditional 170 BP is not so far above and beyond that it is clearly deserving of being isolated from its users. The fact that it has a non-broken fully evolved user in Arctovish (which received a small amount of use in Gen 8 RU), and the fact that Dracovish itself would not be banned without Strong Jaw (demonstrating that it's the synergy on a specific Pokemon, and not just the move itself, that is broken), make it a poor candidate for a move ban.

I will also add that Rage Fist seems pretty dumb to me. We all know it was balanced for doubles where there can be less deaths and so on. I know, I know, Primeape. But when has Primeape, which is no longer eve a fully evolved pokemon, ever been close to OU caliber? I know this goes against tiering policy, but I think it maybe could have benefited the tier more to keep Annihilape with no Rage Fist than to keep the move for a ZU mon.

Primeape currently sees some usage in NU, and while its BST of 455 is below average for a fully evolved Pokemon, it is in line with the BST of NFEs that have been ranked NU in the past. It's clearly not in the same vein as Shadow Tag Gothita and deserves to be recognized as a legitimate competitor. It's existence demonstrates that it is Annihilape's great bulk and Ghost STAB without Tera (which Primeape lacks) which makes Annihilape with Rage Fist broken and Primeape not broken.

Even if it is true that Rage Fist (and Fishious Rend) would be broken on a lot of Pokemon if they were more widely distributed, the reality is that they both only have a few users, and if only a single user is actually broken with the move, then it's best to just ban that Pokemon.

 

[Karxrida]

The main problem with unbanning Last Respects means the greatest abuser of the move gets it, Basculegion-M. It doesn’t need weather thanks to Agility, doesn’t need Band thanks to Adaptability (this means it can run HDB so hazards don’t really matter), can navigate around Sucker Punch with Tera Blast Fighting ( isn’t punishing since it doesn’t need to run Band), Aqua Jet, or Substitute, and has Wave Crash to do damage to Normal-types and nuke Ting-Lu. Basc-M was wrecking havoc in Ubers just some months ago before we gave it the boot.

Last Respects was banned with over 90% support in Ubers largely because of Basc-M. If Last Respects Basc-M was too much for Ubers, why would it be reasonable in OU? You can’t just ban Basc-M either, since Basc-F can fill this roll nearly as well with the exact same tools. It’s not really worth it to ban several otherwise balanced Mons to save a move. At its root, Last Respects is an uncompetitive move that rewards you for sacking your own Mons, which is why it should stay in AG.

I purposefully never mentioned Basc once because of course that shit with Last Respects is broken lol. Not denying that in the slightest. My beef is with how Houndstone was handled.

And I'd once again like to reiterate that I am not advocating for any sort of unban at this time. Fix the meta first. This also means I am not concerned with the logistics related to an unbanned.

 

[Bold School]

If being a 100 BP attack with no drawbacks is enough to be "broken", then your standards for a move being broken are way too low. The Water-type form of Ivy Cudgel is just Crabhammer with an extra 10% accuracy and no contact. The Grass-type form of Ivy Cudgel is just Leaf Blade with an extra 10 BP and no contact. Are those differences really sufficient to call Ivy Cudgel "broken"? Would Ogerpon-Wellspring really change significantly if it had to use Crabhammer instead of Ivy Cudgel?

Yes it would. The 10% accuracy drop is huge because it puts the accuracy closer to Power Whip than Ivy Cudgel. The chance to miss can cost you games. Cudgel never will. It will only win you extra games with crit.

No contact is also huge since you avoid helmet chip, Static, and Flame Body. There would be much more counterplay to Wellspring if you could punish contact easier.

I'll give you the Grass one, which is a generally worse offensive typing in general. The Water, Fire, and Rock versions are all superior to any counterparts you might find. Stone Edge wasn't mean to have 100% accuracy. Don't even get me started on physical Fire moves like Blaze Kick or Flare Blitz recoil.

Fishious Rend's conditional 170 BP, while stronger than most moves, is not completely incomparable to other attacks. Eruption, Water Spout, Head Smash, and V-Create have comparable base power, and while these moves do have different drawbacks that complicate the comparison, it shows that a conditional 170 BP is not so far above and beyond that it is clearly deserving of being isolated from its users. The fact that it has a non-broken fully evolved user in Arctovish (which received a small amount of use in Gen 8 RU), and the fact that Dracovish itself would not be banned without Strong Jaw (demonstrating that it's the synergy on a specific Pokemon, and not just the move itself, that is broken), make it a poor candidate for a move ban.

Yeah, the drawbacks you glossed over are pretty big. So is the fact that all those moves except V-create cap out at 150 BP. The latter move drops your speed and defenses as compensation for moving so high. 170 BP is still rather insane for a no drawbacks or buildup move.

It should also be noted that Dracozolt could add its own bonus multiplier to Bolt Beak with Hustle, and while this comes at the expense of a major accuracy drop, it is actually more powerful than Strong Jaw's bonus multiplier. Both these moves have the potential to be further combined with other modifiers like Rain or E-terrain and items. Had they been in gen 9, the Tera adaptability level boost would have required immunity. Of course, we could argue about moving first with gen 9 speed tiers. Either way, it's wallbreaking.

Even if it is true that Rage Fist (and Fishious Rend) would be broken on a lot of Pokemon if they were more widely distributed, the reality is that they both only have a few users, and if only a single user is actually broken with the move, then it's best to just ban that Pokemon.

I covered this sort of logic in my original comment. I just don't think the 100% buy the book is correct on this one. Repeating how you guys handle the policy again isn't going to make me entirely agree with it. Some moves are just objectively broken. We can debate where that threshold is and what to do about it. Acting like it's always just the mons is a bit silly to me.

 

[Moyashi]

Yes it would. The 10% accuracy drop is huge because it puts the accuracy closer to Power Whip than Ivy Cudgel. The chance to miss can cost you games. Cudgel never will. It will only win you extra games with crit.

No it wouldn’t. Broken Pokémon have relied on far less reliable moves than Crabhammer and if Wellspring had to rely on it instead of Ivy Cudgel, it would only be marginally less consistent by virtue of slightly lower accuracy. 90% is still very accurate all things considered.

The rest is just trying to paint Cudgel as some broken move when it’s really just an exceptionally good move.

Yeah, the drawbacks you glossed over are pretty big. So is the fact that all those moves except V-create cap out at 150 BP. The latter move drops your speed and defenses as compensation for moving so high. 170 BP is still rather insane for a no drawbacks or buildup move.

“no drawback”

having to move first is not a small drawback when the game keeps getting faster. Beyond that, the gap between 150 vs 170 looks big on paper until in practice you realize it’s overkill and it doesn’t actually make a difference in most cases. You’ll often end up OHKOing anything neutral to your 150bp move with it, while both the 170 and 150bp move are 2HKOing resists, the gap not mattering there either.

Also pointing this out. Hustle Dracozolt is only strong because it has 10 more attack, but again in most contexts won’t matter as they’re both KOing targets in the same amount of effort.

covered this sort of logic in my original comment. I just don't think the 100% buy the book is correct on this one. Repeating how you guys handle the policy again isn't going to make me entirely agree with it. Some moves are just objectively broken. We can debate where that threshold is and what to do about it. Acting like it's always just the mons is a bit silly to me.

No offense but throwing “objectively” in front of your claim doesn’t make it actually objectively anything. You can’t throw out X is objectively broken without substantial study and evidence. You look at all these moves in a vacuum rather than in practice with the nuance associated. Rage Fist is designed to be used on Pokémon with good bulk/typing to build up boosts, so on frail mons it can’t work well. Fishious Rend being on slow Pokémon balances out the power it gets. Etc etc.

More than anything, banning these moves fundamentally doesn’t change the outcome of the user’s fate. Ban Rage Fist and Annihilape is free in OU but it also isn’t worth using most of the time anymore. Ban Ivy Cudgel and Waterpon isn’t broken but it also isn’t usable anymore in OU. Fishies Rend, etc etc. So what do you get from banning the moves when banning the Pokémon does the same thing and with much less confusion or fuss?

 

[A_Wild_Noob_Appeared!]

Yes it would. The 10% accuracy drop is huge because it puts the accuracy closer to Power Whip than Ivy Cudgel. The chance to miss can cost you games. Cudgel never will. It will only win you extra games with crit.

No contact is also huge since you avoid helmet chip, Static, and Flame Body. There would be much more counterplay to Wellspring if you could punish contact easier.

I'll give you the Grass one, which is a generally worse offensive typing in general. The Water, Fire, and Rock versions are all superior to any counterparts you might find. Stone Edge wasn't mean to have 100% accuracy. Don't even get me started on physical Fire moves like Blaze Kick or Flare Blitz recoil.

If Crawdaunt had Water-type Ivy Cudgel instead of Crabhammer, it would not be broken and it's tier likely wouldn't even change. That alone should be sufficient evidence that the move is not intrinsically broken relative to Crabhammer.

Pyro Ball is generally better than Fire-type Ivy Cudgel because of the higher KO power, and Diamond Storm is comparable to Rock-type Ivy Cudgel. Should Pyro Ball and Diamond Storm be banned for being "intrinsically broken"?

Yeah, the drawbacks you glossed over are pretty big. So is the fact that all those moves except V-create cap out at 150 BP. The latter move drops your speed and defenses as compensation for moving so high. 170 BP is still rather insane for a no drawbacks or buildup move.

V-Create is not clearly worse than Fishious Rend and Bolt Beak for sheer breaking power. Fire immunities are rarer than Electric immunities or even Water immunities, and V-Create can also be stacked with weather just like Fishious Rend. Even if you have to switch out more, switching out a breaker to avoid a revenge kill is not that uncommon anyways. The point is that even if Fishious Rend can be deemed overall better, it is not so far above and beyond other powerful moves that it's just automatically broken, especially when only 1 of the 4 users of the 170 BP moves has actually been banned.

I covered this sort of logic in my original comment. I just don't think the 100% buy the book is correct on this one. Repeating how you guys handle the policy again isn't going to make me entirely agree with it. Some moves are just objectively broken. We can debate where that threshold is and what to do about it. Acting like it's always just the mons is a bit silly to me.

Even so, the existence of non-broken Pokemon which serve legitimate roles does serve as a counterargument to banning the move. Primeape and Arctovish are not comparable to Shadow Tag Gothita; the value of banning a move to free a single Pokemon from Ubers is extremely questionable when the amount of collateral is basically equal to the gain.

 

[Martin]

I mean this with complete sincerity and no sarcasm: how does Probopass consistently trap Kingambit? Especially since that's contributing to the teambuilding issue that running Houndstone involves. I'm genuinely curious. (Seriously I mean no disrespect here.)

This team used it specifically for its excellent Kingambit matchup.

https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/peaked-rank-2-2050-elo-probopass-ho.3743001/

Fringe and specific but pretty much entirely consistent at its job. If King commits tera to escape the trap then Probopass has for all intents and purposes done its job and won the interaction, as the Kingambit player has committed their single most important resource early for you to play around.

 

[R.para ti]

Alside peliper and quaquaval, what are the Best uu pokemon in OU?

 

[R.para ti]

And why waterpon is best that rockpon, has sturdy combinate with tera defense boost and horn leech is very tough physicaly, water pon is mega mega scetile with water absorb in a pokemon with only resist to ground Steel and x4 resisten to water (no counting the abilitie is only resistent to 2 types) is very overkill and grass and water is like dark and ghost ofensive and defense, overlaped togueder and canceled their weakness and overkill 2 types (golem-kanto) and grass and rock hit 7 types super efectives and overlap it type that resist it and their weakness like water grass, with the same # of resistent, but inmuniti to automatic ko (and ohko moves, but are banner), what is the reason to user water pon instead rockpon?