Pokémon Zygarde-Complete (100% Forme)

[Bombkirby]

Right, i'm not against banning Zygarde whatsoever. I just wanted to clarify that Thousand Arrows is more than just a "strong move with great coverage." You could give it to other Pokemon (such as Garchomp) and see similar results because the move itself is completely broken.

Exactly. If you saw a move that had no risk, high reward, no decision making, and has no counterplay and you just look at it and don't see a problem with that, then you need to go take some game design classes pronto.

Not saying a thousand arrows is like that but "a strong move with great coverage" is underselling it immensely.

 

[preserve]

Why are so many talking about banning Thousand Arrows? If anything about Zygard-Complete is broken then it's its bulk.

I made the account to post my experiences against it: rom what I see, Dual-STAB+Resttalk is one of the common sets, but gets completely walled by Tapu Bulu, even at +2, interestingly enough. The other set I encountered was Sub, which certainly poses problems if it gets up the sub for free. I did change up my team's movesets to incorporate Blizzard instead of Ice Beam to somewhat reliably 2HKO it through the Power Construct recovery. So far, I had a rather good time dealing with it, honestly, which in part probably needs to be attributed to its current predictability. I'm just throwing out options to deal with the thing here, because I prefer looking for ways to deal with it instead of just discussing the kind of banhammer it should receive:

- Ice Beams don't reliably 2HKO it anytime soon from full, much less OHKO. My reaction was upping the power level. Blizzard from uninvested Slowbro does 80% and Zygarde can't deal with it unboosted. The fact it can survive Blizzards is insane, but said Blizzard was unSTABed and uninvested, from a wall.

- Zygarde's STABs are completely useless against Grass/Fairy, so Tapu Bulu can easily deal with dual-STAB. I run Adamant 252Atk with Lefties, which 3HKOs unboosted, but it can SD in Zygarde's face and turn that into a 2HKO(all in Grassy Terrain btw). The Zygarde I fended off that way never could as much as 3HKO without boost to +3 or +4, which is an unreasonable thing to expect in the face of Tapu Bulu.

- Trick Room is incredibly viable this generation, imo, and screws over Zygarde's speed boosts(as well as UB threats). Just something to note, but TR was always anti-meta, so not as big a surprise. Just throwing out there that a rise in TR in singles may completely neuter UBs, it just needs to happen first. A meta change instead of a ban balancing UBs and Zygarde out sounds much more desirable to me.

- It either lacks priority or recovery, it can't have both, which is a fact that made it much easier to deal with. It's predictable.

- It needs to boost to do real damage. In that way, it's no different from other mons.

Just throwing out there. I still don't think the huge bulk is ban-worthy, even though it certainly IS a big threat.

I don't know if whimsicott is out yet but if it is, this thing can check it by threatening to encore it.

I still think this thing is broken and needs be banned. I'm more in favor of banning the ability power construct because I think this pushes it over the edge a lot more than thousand arrows. By definition, anything that can sweep or wall a huge portion of the metagame is broken and zygarde-C can do both at the same time. You can even make a pure stall/wall set with rest/sleep-talk/ toxic/ and thousand arrows with like max bulk no attack and it would still be almost as broken.

 

[Imperator Romanum]

I think Bombkirby is really getting at something import now. What makes a move broken is when it has high reward and low risk. V-create has a high reward, but it has an undeniably high risk. Dropping both defences and speeds makes it almost impossible to freely spam because of pursuit, strong resistances and fire immunities. King's Shield downside is fairly obvious, if you predict right you give your opponent a free switch or move - that's a huge downside and a 50/50. They're both extremely good when luck out. King's Shield gives Aegislash opportunities to Substitute up or set up an Swords Dance. V-create can blow tremendous holes in your opponents team, blowing common fire resistances out of the water.

Thousand arrows is a high reward, low risk move. It has zero immunities(Shedinja lol), it's powerful for having a secondary effect, perfect accuracy, very few relevant resistances and excellent offensive typing. In truth Thousand arrows is one of those moves that makes it so you don't need anything else. Only typing you'd possibly benefit from pairing with it more than a utility move is Fire/Flying to hit the only two resistances.

Thousand arrows might be a problem itself - it should be up for discussion and not lumped together with V-create and King's Shield, because they have very clear downsides.

 

[Agent Gibbs]

No, Thousand Arrows is not a broken move. If it was, I'd be fine with banning it, but it isn't. Yes, there is lower risk for using it than for the average Ground move, but you're blowing the reward way out of proportion. It's still a 90 BP move, which is good but not all that great. Against generic physical walls like Slowbro and Hippowdon, you'd be better off just running Earthquake. Removing Ground immunities is what makes it a great move, but that does not mean that it has no counterplay. It's still resisted by Grass and Bug, which is twice the resistances Dragon had just two generations ago, yet I didn't hear anyone call Dragon Pulse or Dragon Claw broken. This move might break an already great Ground-type like Garchomp or Landorus-T, but do you really think it would break something like Claydol or Torterra? Of course not.

The reason that Thousand Arrows looks so dangerous right now is because of how well it synergizes with Zygarde-C. This Pokemon is outrageously bulky and can easily get to +6/+6 with Coil. The only problem is that between Coil and RestTalk, it only has one free moveslot, so it needs a good STAB move with good neutral coverage and no immunities to sweep. Thousand Arrows just happens to fill that niche perfectly. You could take a Dark-type with Zygarde's stats and Bulk Up + Crunch or Calm Mind + Dark Pulse and it'd probably be able to do about the same thing (maybe even better since it wouldn't have any 4x weaknesses to worry about).

EDIT PK Gaming: I agree, if Thousand Arrows is an option, you'd always run it over Earthquake. I just used the comparison to demonstrate that there were some Pokemon who could take you on just as easily even if you made the switch, so the reward isn't as extreme as a couple of earlier posts made it sound.

 

[JSND]

Lets be honest Thousand Arrows actually is broken. Bannable, maybe not since Zygarde without P Construct and only Thousand Arrows is still pretty reasonable, but to say a Ground move with slightly above average BP(90 is good when a lot of Physical move is 80) that can break through flying isn't broken is just underselling it


A pokemon having broken move isn't neccesarily broken since its just as good as the pokemon its tied into. Chatter is by far the most overpowered move in this game(back in gen 6 anyway) but its on fucking Chatot so nobody cares about it

 

[Dakress]

Kinda funny how a lot of people (myself included) expected this thing to be a gimmick, only to discover how nightmarish beefy is. It has gotten so bad that most people I've seen is running their own Zigarde to kill it, which can be either a hit or miss (it mostly depends if the opponent's set is DD or Coil). If that doesn't scream overcentralization then I don't know what else will.

Also, I've noticed no one has mentioned the only counter this thing has:

Maximize HP and Defense, give it leftovers and run Taunt/Toxic/Leech Seed/Whatever and Coil Zigarde won't even scratch Bulu. There's also the fact that with both leech seed, leftovers, the terrain and Zigarde's insane bulk heal it to full HP instantly. (watch out for Iron Tail, thought,a if it's using DD then go for Woodhammer for the "whatever" slot)

EDIT: Kinda agree with PK Gaming. While that move alone solves Zig's main flaw (coverage). I do think it's still too early to tell. Let's ban Power Construct an THEN we see if there's a way to deal with Normal Zigarde. And if it ends up broken we just ban it or just ban normal Zigarde too and leave only Doggo.

 

[PK Gaming]

While I disagree with some of Agent Gibbs's points (there is 0 justification for running EQ over a Thousand Arrows), I agree with the idea that Thousand Arrows is not broken. Bad design? Absolutely. But as a move, it doesn't fundamentally break the game in the same way that Swagger, Double Team, etc do. I just wanted to stress that it was one of the main reasons why Zygarde is overwhelming.

 

[Zentrius]

the fact that theres people that think Thousand Arrows is what makes Zygarde broken is crazy to me. Zygardes bulk is unreal which lets it set-up against anything that basically doesn't have Fairy/Ice/Dragon stab. like even life orb boosted HP Ice hardly 2hkos the thing lol. even if Zygarde didn't have Thousand Arrows, it would still destroy the entire tier with relatively ease by setting up. i might even go as far as saying that even running Crunch or Rock Slide on it would get the job done.

Thousand Arrows is an amazing move but its not what makes Zygarde ridiculous, it just so happens to help its cause at crushing teams easily.

 

[Siggu]

Thousand Arrows is a fantastic move, no one can deny it. But broken? You'd need to prove that it breaks most of the other Pokemon that can use the move - and that is Smeargle (who will never run it, so let's not consider it) or the other Zygarde formes, and only 50% would find a good use for the move.

Or prove it's uncompetitive, which isn't.

It's Complete Zygarde's absurd bulk that breaks it. Really, if it didn't have the move, then it would be dual STABs, and it will still be broken (though not as much due to no Sleep Talk to keep smashing things while asleep). Thousand Arrows is the icing in the cake.

 

[Flarowak]

Man this thing can cause some real issues if you aren't prepared for it. It can cause some bug problems if you don't catch it early or aren't prepared for it at all.

 

[Chopin Alkaninoff]

- Ice Beams don't reliably 2HKO it anytime soon from full, much less OHKO. My reaction was upping the power level. Blizzard from uninvested Slowbro does 80% and Zygarde can't deal with it unboosted. The fact it can survive Blizzards is insane, but said Blizzard was unSTABed and uninvested, from a wall.

Uh sorry but what are you smoking?

0 SpA Slowbro Blizzard vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Zygarde (216 HP): 236-280 (37.1 - 44%) -- 99.8% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

It doesn't even 2HKO. Zygarde's bulk IS absurd and this prove it. It isn't even breakable by HP Ice Landorus I.

 

[Steel With It]

It has zero immunities(Shedinja lol), it's powerful for having a secondary effect, perfect accuracy, very few relevant resistances and excellent offensive typing.

That describes everything from Ice Beam to Knock Off (barring the Shedinja thing).

 

[UltiMario]

No, we're not going to ban Thousand Arrows. That move has nothing to do with luck, form changes, or any other condition that requires us to take special consideration for a move, item, or ability. It's just a strong move with great coverage. Power Construct is one thing because it actually involves a form change, so banning it would be akin to banning Mega stones as a practical way of banning the Mega form. If Zygarde is still broken after that, we ban Zygarde. I mean, if we couldn't ban King's Shield to save Aegislash even though it actually had a semi-luck element to it, then we certainly aren't going to ban Thousand Arrows to save Zygarde just because it's a really good Ground STAB.

I'm going to be that guy: Nothing in this post stopped us from banning Shadow Tag, and it certainly didn't stop the council from having Shadow Tag remain as a day 0 ban in a new meta.

We've long thrown out concepts like "has to be broken on literally everything it's on" (Wynaut vs Smeargle for this comparison), neither does something require the prerequisite of taking the game entirely out of both players hands to be labeled uncompetitive. You could parrot literally every argument made against Shadow Tag not being in the spirit of the game and severely limiting counterplay in the same sense that Thousand Arrows completely removes all meaningful counterplay that could be attempted against Zygarde-100%.

ORAS has really not shown us any tiering decisions that reinforce the concept that we can't ban Thousand Arrows. Instead, it's actually upended over a decade of precedent for that line of thinking and pretty much has said "fuck it, we can just ban whatever works best for the meta" and I don't see why that "whatever" can't be Thousand Arrows if that turns out to result in the most balanced meta. It might not, but it's a possibility it could.

I think this type of discussion really comes more down to a tiering philosophy: We really should either leave behind ORAS and its tiering philosophies entirely (This includes things like the ORAS definition of uncompetitive, which may not be relevant after a gen shift) and try and rebuild the meta for SM, or try to entirely inherit and expand upon what we've developed with ORAS and try to attempt consistent tiering discussions. Right now what we really have in the early days of SM is a hastily slapped together mix of both, and I feel like a lot of tiering discussions and claims like "we're not going to ban Thousand Arrows" completely clashes with the reality of what we're actually doing in the tier.

 

[Karxrida]

I'm going to be that guy: Nothing in this post stopped us from banning Shadow Tag, and it certainly didn't stop the council from having Shadow Tag remain as a day 0 ban in a new meta.

We've long thrown out concepts like "has to be broken on literally everything it's on" (Wynaut vs Smeargle for this comparison), neither does something require the prerequisite of taking the game entirely out of both players hands to be labeled uncompetitive. You could parrot literally every argument made against Shadow Tag not being in the spirit of the game and severely limiting counterplay in the same sense that Thousand Arrows completely removes all meaningful counterplay that could be attempted against Zygarde-100%.

ORAS has really not shown us any tiering decisions that reinforce the concept that we can't ban Thousand Arrows. Instead, it's actually upended over a decade of precedent for that line of thinking and pretty much has said "fuck it, we can just ban whatever works best for the meta" and I don't see why that "whatever" can't be Thousand Arrows if that turns out to result in the most balanced meta. It might not, but it's a possibility it could.

I think this type of discussion really comes more down to a tiering philosophy: We really should either leave behind ORAS and its tiering philosophies entirely (This includes things like the ORAS definition of uncompetitive, which may not be relevant after a gen shift) and try and rebuild the meta for SM, or try to entirely inherit and expand upon what we've developed with ORAS and try to attempt consistent tiering discussions. Right now what we really have in the early days of SM is a hastily slapped together mix of both, and I feel like a lot of tiering discussions and claims like "we're not going to ban Thousand Arrows" completely clashes with the reality of what we're actually doing in the tier.

People had success in OU with Goth's prevos back during ORAS, so Shadow Tag was broken on (most) everything that got it.

 

[JSND]

Kinda funny how a lot of people (myself included) expected this thing to be a gimmick, only to discover how nightmarish beefy is. It has gotten so bad that most people I've seen is running their own Zigarde to kill it, which can be either a hit or miss (it mostly depends if the opponent's set is DD or Coil). If that doesn't scream overcentralization then I don't know what else will.

Also, I've noticed no one has mentioned the only counter this thing has:

Maximize HP and Defense, give it leftovers and run Taunt/Toxic/Leech Seed/Whatever and Coil Zigarde won't even scratch Bulu. There's also the fact that with both leech seed, leftovers, the terrain and Zigarde's insane bulk heal it to full HP instantly. (watch out for Iron Tail, thought,a if it's using DD then go for Woodhammer for the "whatever" slot)

EDIT: Kinda agree with PK Gaming. While that move alone solves Zig's main flaw (coverage). I do think it's still too early to tell. Let's ban Power Construct an THEN we see if there's a way to deal with Normal Zigarde. And if it ends up broken we just ban it or just ban normal Zigarde too and leave only Doggo.

Tapu Bulu loses to Sludge Wave for what it worth

 

[Agent Gibbs]

UltiMario You're really reaching there. Shadow Tag and Thousand Arrows aren't even remotely comparable, nor are the ways in which they limit counterplay. Shadow Tag removes the ability to switch altogether, while Thousand Arrows just lets Zygarde-C hit some things it couldn't with Earthquake. And again, that wouldn't even be a huge problem if Zygarde-C wasn't so bulky and didn't get boosts so easily, which I think is the larger problem here. I've already given two other examples of signature moves that helped break their users (V-Create and King's Shield), and those serve as a much more powerful precedent than an uncompetitive ability that has been a figure of controversy since ADV. If we suddenly decide to start making exceptions for signature moves, then fine, ban Thousand Arrows. But until that happens, I don't see any reason to believe we won't just ban the broken Pokemon rather than the signature move like we always have.

 

[UltiMario]

People had success in OU with Goth's prevos back during ORAS, so Shadow Tag was broken on (most) everything that got it.

By "most everything" do you mean "Gothitelle was the only functional one, but Gothorita could sometimes pull it off too" because that's realistically what was going on.

Not even Wobb could break Shadow Tag. Gothita, which didn't suffer the Wobb family's movepool limitation, also never pulled any success because it's really difficult to accomplish anything vs stallmons when you like 5hko them and they can ohko-2hko you. You can't even set-up on Chansey because you have sub-300 HP. We had 5 Shadow Tag users and 1 of them was broken exclusively in combination with Sableye, and another was decent but only vs stall in combination with Sableye. I very much followed that test, and to imply Shadow Tag was any better than what I just described is a gross exaggeration.

UltiMario You're really reaching there. Shadow Tag and Thousand Arrows aren't even remotely comparable, nor are the ways in which they limit counterplay. Shadow Tag removes the ability to switch altogether, while Thousand Arrows just lets Zygarde-C hit some things it couldn't with Earthquake. And again, that wouldn't even be a huge problem if Zygarde-C wasn't so bulky and didn't get boosts so easily, which I think is the larger problem here. I've already given two other examples of signature moves that helped break their users (V-Create and King's Shield), and those serve as a much more powerful precedent than an uncompetitive ability that has been a figure of controversy since ADV. If we suddenly decide to start making exceptions for signature moves, then fine, ban Thousand Arrows. But until that happens, I don't see any reason to believe we won't just ban the broken Pokemon rather than the signature move like we always have.

Yes, I agree, what I'm saying is a stretch, but I'm also saying it's more of a stretch to completely turn our tiering philosophies upside-down just for Shadow Tag and then try to ban all discussion of possible other things we can do by applying what we did to Shadow Tag to some other problematic moves or abilities. Banning Thousand Arrows wouldn't be opening a can of worms or anything- the can has been open for months. The point of my discussion is that, as long as we've decided to leave that can open in SM (Day 0 Stag ban), then we should leave ourselves the possibility of looking inside it.

 

[Funbot28]

RIP sweet prince....

http://www.smogon.com/forums/thread...arde-complete-is-now-banned-to-ubers.3587554/