XY Suspect Testing Round 1 np: Michael Jackson - (extreme)Speed Demon (READ POST #1278)

[Chiki]

4MSS is a problem, but it's a lot worse from the opponent's perspective. Even if you've determined that it's NP Lucario (meaning that you've already made a risky play to determine whether you're facing the special or physical set), you don't know whether you should send out your Blissey (loses if it has Aura Sphere), Greninja (loses if it has Vacuum Wave), or Aegislash (loses if it has Dark Pulse).

We can't just ban Pokemon for being unpredictable, though. Otherwise we'd be banning Gengar and Aegislash.

His sets tend to have a lot of common checks (Talonflame, Starmie) and counters (Mega Venusaur with Sleep Powder, Gyarados, Zapdos, Moltres, bulky Volcarona) and cripplers (Prankster users) which helps alleviate the problem.

 

[TooMuchSugar]

We can't just ban Pokemon for being unpredictable, though. Otherwise we'd be banning Gengar and Aegislash.

His sets tend to have a lot of common checks (Talonflame, Starmie) and counters (Mega Venusaur with Sleep Powder, Gyarados, Zapdos, Moltres, bulky Volcarona) and cripplers (Prankster users) which helps alleviate the problem.

Mispredicting Gengar and Aegislash's set is never going to get your team killed though (anyway, you can pretty much assume that Aegislash is going to use Shadow Ball when it comes in and Gengar is going to use Shadow Ball or Substitute). The problem is that, because of Lucario's unpredictability/versatility, you need different checks for the different sets to reliably beat him, which puts an unfair burden on teambuilding.

About those counters - I'm not sure where you found that Zapdos and Moltres are common (although Zapdos probably deserves to be), and all of those but Mega-Venusaur hate to come into Stealth Rock more than once. Not that you can always assume stealth rocks are up, but given that almost all of Lucario's counters hate rocks, there's a pretty good incentive for the Lucario user to keep them up.

 

[KztxL7]

We can't just ban Pokemon for being unpredictable, though. Otherwise we'd be banning Gengar and Aegislash.

His sets tend to have a lot of common checks (Talonflame, Starmie) and counters (Mega Venusaur with Sleep Powder, Gyarados, Zapdos, Moltres, bulky Volcarona) and cripplers (Prankster users) which helps alleviate the problem.

The only ones of those that are actual counters are Gyarados and Zapdos.

 

[rachet67]

We can't just ban Pokemon for being unpredictable, though. Otherwise we'd be banning Gengar and Aegislash.

His sets tend to have a lot of common checks (Talonflame, Starmie) and counters (Mega Venusaur with Sleep Powder, Gyarados, Zapdos, Moltres, bulky Volcarona) and cripplers (Prankster users) which helps alleviate the problem.

Its not getting banned just because its unpredictable. Its because its so dangerous that if you guess wrong you may lose the match. You switch in you physical wall only to see NP. At this point, even you're dedicated special wall won't be able to switch in and survive the 2HKO. Talonflame and Starmie are not safe against Extreme Speed if stealth rock is down (which it often is on teams that use lucario).

+2 252 Atk Adaptability Mega Lucario Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Starmie: 324-382 (124.1 - 146.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 Atk Mega Lucario Extreme Speed vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 250-295 (83.8 - 98.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

Zapdos, Moltres, and Volcarona are not reliable counters all the time as they all can't deal with lucario if stealth rock is down. This leaves venesaur, gyrados, and aegislash as its only fairly reliable counters. And even these take a ton of damage a long the way. Gyrados has no reliable recovery and is worn down from stealth rock.

 

[Chiki]

Why assume Lucario is just going to sweep your team flat out if you make a mistake? It's not like everyone doesn't carry a revenge killer. It's asinine not to nowadays, especially at a high level. With Lucarionite banned or not you still need to have revenge killers for other threats.

They're less common counters though they're still worth mentioning. While they hate SR if you have Moltres/Volcarona/Talonflame you almost certainly want a way of getting rid of it.

 

[KztxL7]

Revenge Killing is NOT a Argument.

Holy shit. We've been over this far more than enough.

Damn Near Every Pokemon can be revenge killed.

 

[Kairyu_Gen1]

Chiki
Here's a list of pokemon that I've seen in OU and can counter most Lucario sets (and can afford to switch in):
Conkeldurr
Mega Venusaur (only with sleep powder, which isn't something they all run)

All the others you've mentioned can't reliably check it because they're afraid of one of its other sets

And like KztxL7 said, one of the very first things this thread established was that revenge killing MegaLuke doesn't mean shit. Go back and read.

I was almost excited that MegaLuke was getting another look, but its the same arguments and it ended the same way

 

[TooMuchSugar]

Revenge Killing is NOT a Argument.

Holy shit. We've been over this far more than enough.

Damn Near Every Pokemon can be revenge killed.

Just to help with this point:
252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Darkrai: 256-303 (91.1 - 107.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Rayquaza: 256-303 (72.9 - 86.3%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Shaymin-S: 596-704 (174.7 - 206.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

 

[Chiki]

Revenge Killing is NOT a Argument.

Holy shit. We've been over this far more than enough.

Damn Near Every Pokemon can be revenge killed.

First, if you were around in Gen 4, you'd realize that part of the reason Garchomp got banned was because its Yache set was nearly impossible to revenge kill without its berry being gone.

Being able to revenge kill is a necessary but not sufficient way of concluding something isn't uber.

Your example doesn't work. I'm not arguing that being able to be revenge killed alone makes him less uber.

It's not just that Lucario can be revenge killed which is significant, but that he can be revenge killed AND countered by many. Darkrai can't.

 

[PrincessDerpy]

We can't just ban Pokemon for being unpredictable, though. Otherwise we'd be banning Gengar and Aegislash.

His sets tend to have a lot of common checks (Talonflame, Starmie) and counters (Mega Venusaur with Sleep Powder, Gyarados, Zapdos, Moltres, bulky Volcarona) and cripplers (Prankster users) which helps alleviate the problem.

Of these, Talon, Gyarados, Zapdos, Moltres and Volcarona will not appreciate Stealth Rock being on the field.

Revenge killers are being discounted because they are largely universal and can be taken advantage of depending on which mon you are using and which mon you are targeting, it takes a special revenge killer to be uniformly threatening, and that typically requires something with Genesect levels of coverage or weather boosted STAB. (or being Talonflame...)

In this specific case, outside of weather boosts Luke will attract a lot of ground, fighting and fire moves, all of which have valid switch-ins. Sleep Powder Mega V is the only thing that can really throw him for a loop but powdersaur can't stay in if Megaluke switches out unless it carries Earthquake. The miss rate on sleep powder can also be somewhat rage inducing here as you only come out ahead if it lands.

 

[TooMuchSugar]

First, if you were around in Gen 4, you'd realize that part of the reason Garchomp got banned was because its Yache set was nearly impossible to revenge kill without its berry being gone.

Being able to revenge kill is a necessary but not sufficient way of concluding something isn't uber.

Your example doesn't work. I'm not arguing that being able to be revenge killed alone makes him less uber.

It's not just that Lucario can be revenge killed which is significant, but that he can be revenge killed AND countered by many. Darkrai can't.

About four people have already responded arguing with your counters, so you shouldn't say that he's countered by many without at least giving reasons as to why we're all wrong. Basically, as I see it, he can NOT be countered by many (and he's pretty damn hard to revenge kill too).

 

[Colonial]

First, if you were around in Gen 4, you'd realize that part of the reason Garchomp got banned was because its Yache set was nearly impossible to revenge kill without its berry being gone.

Being able to revenge kill is a necessary but not sufficient way of concluding something isn't uber.

Your example doesn't work. I'm not arguing that being able to be revenge killed alone makes him less uber.

It's not just that Lucario can be revenge killed which is significant, but that he can be revenge killed AND countered by many. Darkrai can't.

No. Revenge killing is NOT RELEVANT TO HOW SOMETHING IS RANKED. REVENGE KILLING APPLIES TO EVERY POKEMON IN THE ENTIRE GAME, STOP USING IT AS AN ARGUMENT. It requires you to sacrifice a pokemon, and Luke getting a guaranteed kill just to you can switch in your check is stupid. What happens if Luke switches out, and comes in later? Sacrifice another pokemon to switch in your scarfer again, and just have Luke switch again?

Your countering argument has been addressed by myself and others several times, each set has counters but almost nothing counters all sets, and what does just so happens to be weak to Stealth Rock and Stone Edge, which Megaluke can use. Having to run a counter for both physical and special is bad.

 

[TooMuchSugar]

No. Revenge killing is NOT RELEVANT TO HOW SOMETHING IS RANKED. REVENGE KILLING APPLIES TO EVERY POKEMON IN THE ENTIRE GAME, STOP USING IT AS AN ARGUMENT. It requires you to sacrifice a pokemon, and Luke getting a guaranteed kill just to you can switch in your check is stupid. What happens if Luke switches out, and comes in later? Sacrifice another pokemon to switch in your scarfer again, and just have Luke switch again?

Your countering argument has been addressed by myself and others several times, each set has counters but almost nothing counters all sets, and what does just so happens to be weak to Stealth Rock and Stone Edge, which Megaluke can use. Having to run a counter for both physical and special is bad.

On the revenge killing - I THINK what he's trying to say is that if Mega-Lucario was NOT revenge killiable, then it would be Uber, which is true. So in order to show that it's not Uber, he's shown that it's revenge killable. The only problem with this is that dozens of people have already done so and been accepted. No one has yet satisfactorily shown that it's reasonably counterable, though.

 

[Photofluid]

The other issue with Genesect is that it limits creative teambuilding. Has anyone teambuilding for suspect (you know, not doing crap like replacing Genesect with Scizor and Deoxys-S with Deoxys-D, and that being a 'new team') noticed that it's a lot different? Because I sure have. Even making something as simple as a Deoxys-D HO is harder because Genesect is basically the 'easy patch up everything' Pokemon. It just fills so many holes on offensive teams, that there's little reason NOT to run it. When you don't have Genesect to work with, you have to rely on multiple Pokemon to cover these roles, which encourages diversity and makes for an overall better metagame experience imo. I am not comparing the two metagames (main and suspect) on this level; it is simply a product of having a metagame sans Genesect. Genesect is probably the 'best' Pokemon in OU -- we shouldn't ban it because it's the best, but moreover because it possesses broken traits that make it the best. I've written a lot on it before, and Treecko just made some posts about it, so I won't rehash those. In summary, removing Genesect from the metagame encourages diversity.

I once post something similar about Lucario that it basically outclasses every single Mevos in the meta and quickly get rejected by council members as an invalid argument, the reason was something like "you can still pick what you want despite that does not necessarily benefits your teambuilding"

Well, it's not a revenge killer. It feigns one, but it's not one. As for the second part, the single threat of it being scarf forces so many switches it's not funny, so it retains it switch-momentum easily.

Ebelt Genesect is known to carry Hp Ground from time to time for Tran. One part of the core is down, let Talon break the other.

That says, the momentum generated by Genesect is not guaranteed, after 1-2 round you should know how to play a mind game. If you decide not to retaliate at all, well good luck.

And btw, HP ground is not popular with good reasons, so I am not wasting my time here, especially not when one seem to have no idea what is "wall breaking". If you decide to continue to post about B+ worthy sets, do that on the viability page, it does not really matter but nothing is ever going to be banned for using an Ebelt set, at least not for now.

 

[Rotosect]

Revenge Killing is NOT a Argument.

Holy shit. We've been over this far more than enough.

Damn Near Every Pokemon can be revenge killed.

If you don't take it literally, it is a valid argument.
Some pokemon are harder to revenge kill than others - that's the point of the argument. Surely you're not going to tell me that revenge killing a +2 Weavile is the same thing of revenge killing a Dragonite with Multiscale intact, a DD boost and Extremespeed right?

 

[raiderrocker18]

if "it has a counter" or "it can be revenge killed" is the only argument, then its flawed. its a matter of how centralizing these mons are. people playing OU literally have to build their team in a way to be able to survive a mega lucario onslaught (of course, not knowing what type of attacker he is, so prepared for either), and has to have a team that won't get completely crippled by genesect. the problem is, it takes a lot of creativity and diversity out of teambuilding, which isn't good for the meta. the next best mega sweeper is probably pinsir, which is why he is so common in the suspect ladder, but pinsir has so many different ways of being dealt with that he's not nearly as centralizing as, say lucario. the fact that genesect alone has people running odd sets like rocky heatran tells me its a problem. the fact is, the scarf set is what makes him dangerous. every other set people mention are very dangerous only because they are essentially always bluffing scarf

 

[Photofluid]

if "it has a counter" or "it can be revenge killed" is the only argument, then its flawed. its a matter of how centralizing these mons are. people playing OU literally have to build their team in a way to be able to survive a mega lucario onslaught (of course, not knowing what type of attacker he is, so prepared for either), and has to have a team that won't get completely crippled by genesect. the problem is, it takes a lot of creativity and diversity out of teambuilding, which isn't good for the meta. the next best mega sweeper is probably pinsir, which is why he is so common in the suspect ladder, but pinsir has so many different ways of being dealt with that he's not nearly as centralizing as, say lucario. the fact that genesect alone has people running odd sets like rocky heatran tells me its a problem. the fact is, the scarf set is what makes him dangerous. every other set people mention are very dangerous only because they are essentially always bluffing scarf

Well, as a side note, Genesect can probably create a lot of pressure to the majority of the teams. But if Genesect can singled-handedly cripples you entire team, it is probably your own team building problem.

Btw, I have never seen a rocky Heatran just yet, rocky Skarmory are generally used in more offensive teams so that it can damage a wide spectrum of enemy, it is also a response to the ever popularizing Knock off because Skarmory is a good member to sacrifice its item.

 

[Eievui-Nymphia]

Revenge kill is a "viable strategy" that should be taking around when you face a species.

Technically all pokemon can be revenge killed, in the practice it isn't true for many classic Ubers that has a low chance of revenge killed. Revenge killing an Arceus (Normal) and a Mega Lucario with a OU/BL pokemon. If you see, there will be way more pokemon that can revenge kill Mega Lucario than revenge kill an Arceus.

Exist pokemon that are not meant to switch in another pokemon but should only be used after an KO unless there are a specific thread the lower-middle ladder has a key deifference between the higher ladder to the point that the two ladders are going to be separated to the point that there are sets that the lower ladder almost never use.

The main difference between the two is that the "lower ladder" has more variety in my opinions that in the higher ladder. In the lower ladder switching is not as important as in the hoigher ladder, stall basically doesn't exist, there are less strategies of heavy switching around (U-turn, Choice Items) and the prediction is more basic than in the higher ladder.

I still think that Mega Lucario deserves a fair ban because it can destroy teams in the lower ladder and in the higher ladder. Possibly Genesect too. But the handling of certain thing in Smogon are very obscure with changing criteria constantly (I don't think that strategies like Drizzle, Drought, Thundurus-T, Scolipede, Staraptor or Wobbuffet (154 in usage) should be quickbanned by a group of only 12 people in the UU tier, which is itself very unstable right now.

 

[Sturdynips]

Mega Luke doesn't have 4MSS. Choosing certain coverage moves doesn't make it any less threatening in general, in fact it's probably a good thing for Luke as it effectively chooses its counters. Mega Luke is still going to be able to sweep regardless of whether it chooses Crunch over Ice Punch or Dark Pulse over Vacuum Wave; 4MSS is more for Pokemon that NEED more than four moves to be effective, such as Donphan who wants SR/Spin/EQ/Ice Shard/Head Smash/Roar. (if you dont like the example then w/e, attack the point not the example). I don't like how some people try to turn Mega Luke's versatility and expansive movepool into some kind of downside

 

[Seven Lions]

Mega venusaur gets destroyed anyway by most strong flying & psychic type moves despite its bulk.

252 SpA Life Orb Deoxys-S Psycho Boost vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mega Venusaur: 307-361 (84.3 - 99.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Deoxys-S Psycho Boost vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Venusaur: 413-486 (113.4 - 133.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Life Orb Latios Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Venusaur: 213-252 (58.5 - 69.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Latios Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Venusaur: 283-338 (77.7 - 92.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Mega Alakazam Psychic vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mega Venusaur: 236-278 (64.8 - 76.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Mega Alakazam Psychic vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Venusaur: 314-372 (86.2 - 102.1%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO

I hope that's enough for you.

 

[Colonial]

If you don't take it literally, it is a valid argument.
Some pokemon are harder to revenge kill than others - that's the point of the argument. Surely you're not going to tell me that revenge killing a +2 Weavile is the same thing of revenge killing a Dragonite with Multiscale intact, a DD boost and Extremespeed right?

That's true, but it still doesn't really make Lucario any less banworthy in my opinion. Luke's power and strong priority make it a lot more like the Dragonite then the Weavile. How can an argument be used against Luke when it applies, if anything, less to it than to many other sweepers? And you already know the problem with revenge killing as an exclusive argument- you have to sacrifice something to even begin countering in the first place, and unless you're using something like Dugtrio there's nothing to stop Luke from switching out/in later and once again forcing you to sacrifice something to get your scarfer in a second time.

 

[ShadowMarioGalaxy64]

It's weird. Many of you all see words in these forums, whether factual or silly (by silly, I mean fucking stupid)...yet all I see are circles. These circles have been repeated throughout most of this thread. I think we all have made our opinions on Mega Skywalker heard.

I dislike how people don't give Deoxys-S the credit it deserves on its sets. "Defog exists, therefore it's bad" is the worst excuse I've heard to not ban something. I've stressed this in the Deoxys-S thread and the Viability Thread, but Deoxys-S is the hardest Pokemon to predict. Between its several sets (Hazards, Screens, TrickScarf, that ridiculous Damp Rock set, All-Out Offense, etc.), it's hard to pinpoint which ONE your opponent is using. Deoxys-S can beat most Defoggers and Rapid Spinners with the Offensive Set if you mispredict, so you might want to keep that Excadrill hidden away for a little bit until you pinpoint its set. As far as Hazards go, Deoxys-S almost guarantees two layers unless your opponent uses Priority (though to be fair, Taunting it might not be the best idea as it has access to Magic Coat...which I use). Do I think Deoxys-S needs a ban? Yes and no. While I don't think it's over-the-top broken, it is top of the line OU to me. Would I be hurt if it was banned? Not really. Deoxys-S is a Pokemon I can see go either way.

I didn't exactly get the brokenness of Genesect until recently (thank you, Pokebank!). I use an Expert Belt set for the most part...and it's absolutely ridiculous. Most people expect Scarf...and wow. The results were too great. The power of U-Turn combined with the scouting...its coverage options...and that's not even touching its Shift Gear set. Genesect is, quite literally, an easy fit on most teams, especially when coupled with Heatran. This might be the time to say that I'm a slight Genesect ban lean now, but it took some time to see both sides of the coin. It's not the power of U-Turn...it's not the scouting capabilities...it's not the coverage or the power or the speed...it's everything combined into one entity. Sounds like nonsense? Well, I'm still a little ill and it's early in the morning, so forgive me.

 

[Aelsorm]

There are few people saying that Lucario Mega has its counters...
They mean Volcanrona, Zapdos, Moltres. If there was Stealth Rock set up, there would be no longer Volcanrona and Zapdos counter.
Zapdos, he loses some HP at least, decent HP...

Imagine the situation... you need to let a Pokémon fainted in order to counter it. If not, those "counters" might be hit very very hard and might be no longer Pokémon that counter it. To stop Lucario you will probably need any suicude Pokémon... yeah, Zapdos.


But, ZAPDOS need to be Sp.Defensive to live against Lucario (Sp.Atk). If Zapdos is Sp.Defensive and you switch straight into Lucario... it won't help.
Turn 1: Pokémon weak to Lucario switched into Zapdos. Lucario-M used Nasty Plot.
Turn 2: Lucario used Dark Pulse, nearly 50%, Zapdos, if lucky enough (not miss, no flinch), used Heat Wave.
4 SpA Zapdos Heat Wave vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Lucario: 222-262 (79 - 93.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Lucario survived.
Yeah, he still has to 3HKO him. So lucky Sp.Def Zapdos might be used as counter for Lucario. There isn't probably any other Pokémon that fits as well.
In order to take down Lucario you need to have one Pokémon for suicuide against him, sometimes one more Pokémon to sacrifice, very good predict, luck to avert flinching.


Zapdos without Sp.Def, but with HP investment.
+2 252 SpA Adaptability Mega Lucario Aura Sphere vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Zapdos: 201-237 (52.3 - 61.7%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Imagine the flinching...
Offensive Zapdos.
+2 252 SpA Mega Lucario Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Zapdos: 201-237 (62.6 - 73.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery.
Volcanrona
+2 252 SpA Mega Lucario Dark Pulse vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Volcarona: 177-209 (56.7 - 66.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Conclusion
you need good prediction
you need to play either Volcarona or Zapdos
you need to Spin or Defog Stealth Rock (before Zapdos loses HP, so Zapdos isn't legit Defoger)
you need to sacrifice those Pokémon, Zapdos or Volcarona, they lost a lot HP to deal with Lucario, they can be either revenge killed or lost to SR


Do you expect everyone to play Zapdos in order to deal with Lucario?
Wouldn't it be to boring seeing Zapdos everywhere?

 

[Aelsorm]

First, if you were around in Gen 4, you'd realize that part of the reason Garchomp got banned was because its Yache set was nearly impossible to revenge kill without its berry being gone.

Being able to revenge kill is a necessary but not sufficient way of concluding something isn't uber.

Your example doesn't work. I'm not arguing that being able to be revenge killed alone makes him less uber.

It's not just that Lucario can be revenge killed which is significant, but that he can be revenge killed AND countered by many. Darkrai can't.

He will crush your Pokémon, then you sent revenge killer, then he switch out.
You will be losing your Pokémon, and after losing another you will sent revenge killer. Then he will switch.
At last there will be only your Revenge killer alive in your team against his 6.

 

[Machi]

I still think that Mega Lucario deserves a fair ban because it can destroy teams in the lower ladder and in the higher ladder. Possibly Genesect too. But the handling of certain thing in Smogon are very obscure with changing criteria constantly (I don't think that strategies like Drizzle, Drought, Thundurus-T, Scolipede, Staraptor or Wobbuffet (154 in usage) should be quickbanned by a group of only 12 people in the UU tier, which is itself very unstable right now.

That is not the official UU that is the beta UU, you may want to familiarize yourself with the system set up. The UU beta is simply a form of place holder that aims to smooth the transition of the official UU once solid statistic usage is finalized over the course of the following months, since the initial UU beta started out after the first three months of the metagame (prior to bank), so as to deal with the obvious contentious drops that result from the metagame still stablizing.