Revenge Killing is not a valid argument because every pokemon in the game is able to be revenge killed.
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XY Suspect Testing Round 1 np: Michael Jackson - (extreme)Speed Demon (READ POST #1278)
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Revenge Killing is not a valid argument because every pokemon in the game is able to be revenge killed.
I completely understand the logic behind Lucario's mega stone getting the ban, however, isn't there something said to how he pretty much has few free switch ins due it not even having natural bulk and if he has not setup before taking a single hit he wouldn't survive another. My point is that he is so frail and usually pretty easy to counter due to its defenses. But at the same time if you are unprepared for Lucario and what set its using, it is straight power house who can usually net free sweeps or a single pokemon guaranteed every game. I am on the fence with it being banned, I personally think Genesect is the more broken of the three pokemon it's ability ontop of how versatile it is makes it more of a threat than Lucario (and it can take a hit with it's natural bulk). Something Lucario lacks. Maybe I'm not seeing something and if I am not welcome yourself to correct me.
Okay, I have gotten through the calculations(not necessarily complete) and some wiki pages about game theory and it seems that the ban of Genesect is not unjustifiable. However the main issue really lies upon and only upon the Voltturn aspect, which heavily amplifies the matchup advantages whenever the option is provided. Basically anything that can generate positive matchup against a significant proportion of the meta(things like Terrakion, Keldeo, Kyu-B, etc.) will be instantly broken with that under their arsenal. It is not a general broken stuff only because of the distribution issue which constrains its general strategical usage. I can foresee that once there are sufficient amount of threats in meta with that, an unbreakable voltturn core is gonna be formed.
Anyway, just look at my signature and that should be it.
Anyway, just look at my signature and that should be it.
Actually he really is not that frail at even with his mediocre at best defense. Fighting and steel is still a good defensive typing even though steel it does not resist dark and steel anymore. An univested in defenses mega luc can take one or two neutral hits before it bits the sit and since it can run coverage moves like dark pluse( for nasty plot set) a lot of things hst can switch into it will probably be ko ed by those coverage moves. Also with good spedd and priority few things besides talonflame with priorty brave bird are going to got before mega luc hit you hard with a adaptability boosted stab. Also as you said if ou are unprepared for whitch set he is running due to both nasty plot and swords dance requiring diffrent counters and even those counter are very effective when most of the wall that can survive a hit just become set up fodder. For lucario to get to +2 or. 3and ohko the entire tier. Sorry if it appears as a wall of text this was sent using my phone.
Just want to know, what are these "calculations" and wiki pages on "game theory"? You mean the smogon suspect discussion thread?
It;s not hard to see rachet, Genesect is basically a one way street, if oyu stay in and predict wrong you die. If you switch out and predict wrong it gets switch advantage. If you stay in a predict right, Gene gets away anyways, and if you switch and predict correctly only then can you have gotten momentum unless it was just going for a uturn kill anyways which it usually is.
This is really broken, but the issue is so many pokemon are capable of this anyways. U-turn is the broken move, in Gene's hands I dont find it to be that much better than every other mon in the tier to warrant a ban.
This is really broken, but the issue is so many pokemon are capable of this anyways. U-turn is the broken move, in Gene's hands I dont find it to be that much better than every other mon in the tier to warrant a ban.
Meh, I don't possess sufficient amount of knowledge to do them in a strict manner, but if I have interpreted them correctly, the general idea is that adding Voltturn into the equation won't change the ideal way for the one with negative matchup response to the matchup as stated in a post of Ionic Acid(contrary to my previous belief). In fact, nothing but the matchup itself will probably achieve it, because the calculations seem to agree that strategies are meaningless in a complete double blind scenario(the priorities assigned to each option all becomes 0 in my calculations). Or in easier terms, strategies can not be formed at all without knowing the personality of your opponent beforehand.
If you are also interested about the game theory part, it seems that in a game a "unique Nash equilibrium" does not necessarily exist. And I have somehow drawn a table which does show this is the case for pokemon.
At this point I have made a bold assumption that the "common" way we deal with negative matchups is the right one. As the two cases(involving VoltTurn or not) possess identical properties from the gaming theory perspective, I reached the conclusion above.
What this mean, is that, while I have always agreed that Voltturn would bring overall positive impact and probably more than what it should, I did not anticipate that Voltturn generates absolutely no opportunity cost(besides the move slot of course). Voltturning does, but having voltturn as an option does not. So in this sense, voltturn will fundamentally force the entire meta to adapt it like how perma weather was in the last generation, probably worse because it actually disrupts the entire switching mechanism.
Few exceptional case when it generates overall negative results for the user discounting volt switching to earth, is either when the damage fail to get pass the leftover recovery point, which may even require EH off the field, or when the EH damage taken by the voltswitch side outweight the impact of the damage and momentum induced.
But of course, this is not verified and I don't feel the need to do so at this point.
The only reason this has not happened yet, is the distribution issue as stated above. But this generation we have already introduced Greninjar,
Note that I have not even include the impact of slow switch(though I have not done works on it).
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I may not type that quick so I will just double post.
The problem here is that Gene is the only one that can abuse U-turn close to its full potential, and to abuse Voltturn in a team scale would require a better distribution which is probably another generation. (But currently with Torn-T, Land-T, Greninjar you can probably do the job)
So, the ban of Gene can be considered as a "lazy" way to constrain Voltturn, which is why while I do not agree with it(because it is unfair to my dear genesect, and I don't particular hate seeing voltturn everywhere either), still find it understandable.
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That made absolutely no sense.
Anyways, Volt-turn isn't a broken strategy by itself, there are just specific pokemon that can abuse it to the point of being broken. Its only the pokemon that can be extremely threatening to a diverse swath of the meta that can abuse u-turn to the extent of it being broken. Genesect may fit that description, though I'm still on the fence on that. Just because it helps alleviate prediction doesn't mean that volt-turn is the best option at all times, or that it prevents negative match ups. In fact, until genesect was re-put into OU, and rotom-w re-became the anti-meta mon, the whole strategy was not nearly as prominent (basically during the late stages of BW2).
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I think that Lucarionite shouldnt be banned.. i know its kinda broken but its the only thing that stops us seeing tons of stall teams.... if you are laddering in the ou suspects ladder u will know what i mean cause there are ALOT of stall teams used right now. also a very common pokemon is aegislash who walls Mega Luc and can even take a +2 crunch or dark pulse according to nature. As for Gene and Deoxy speed....... its very debateable cause they are manageable but it does restrict team building a little bit so im not too sure...
I'm gonna hit the chimpster up with a strong and nice like imo :]]]
Personally, I don't feel the need to ban Genesect as he isn't really that broken. His versatility is wellknown, and an effective CB/Specs simply by joining (while nice, indeed) doesn't really improve him all too much. Most of the time all he really needs is U-turn and one of his special coverage moves which already at an uninvested +0 state 2HKO (or OHKO) the things they need to 2HKO (again or OHKO). Of course, +1 252 U-turns hurts a lot, but they are also easier to handle due to most teams carrying mons that can chug on a U-turn. And looking at the mons that do take these U-turns, well they already fit into the meta as it is. So, it seems to me that it is an easy mon to check. And considering the bulky dominance in our meta, I also feel that his wallbreaking potential with the CB set still leaves a lot to be desired. His bulk also isn't all that great (it's not terrible as some may make it out tho) meaning that hazards plus priority damages the bug more than necessary, as well as having limited switch-ins.
It is a great mon, I'm not denying that, but he seems to fall short in power, speedtier and bulk imo to be considered broken.
Mega Lucario sweeps the moment you give it a free mega and +2 to either stat. Giving it that isn't always easy, but that is honestly the only flaw with this jackal other than his 4MSS. His unboosted power still yields a lot, so he doesn't always need the +2 anyways. I'd like to see him banned.
As for Deoxys-S, I see little reason to ban him. His offensive set is very good but, like so many other mons, he is very prone to priority. Now, you could be cheeky and give him Extremespeed to harm priority mons... but honestly, his E-speed is just weak and it removes one of his already potential moves. He brings many benefits to a team though with several highly different sets that perform highly different in revenge killer, hazards lead, Dual Screens, TrickScarf, Nasty Plot Sweeper... yeah, he's a highly versatile mon with decent offensive stats and blistering fast (almost to the point of pointless fast) speed. The fact that he outpaces all scarfers up to Scarf 103's is very beneficial for a revengekiller too, so he does have his benefits. His shortcomings are revealed in his at best average bulk, his average offensive stats and his bad mono typing in Psychic. Most of his roles are also one-time uses for Hyper Offense teams aside from the revenge killer/nasty plot set, meaning that his work is relevant only for 8 turns with screens or until his hazards/screens are spun/defogged away. (I wouldn't consider it too much of negative though, as the general pressure should make such an option hard...) But yeah, I'd prefer keeping Deo-S around.
MLuke is pretty much walled by MVenusaur, a standard Stallmon. He isn't what keeps Stall away, Genesect does. Well, VoltTurn in general does.
I personally run MLuke with EQ for Aegislash, and...
+2 252 Atk Mega Lucario Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 332-392 (102.4 - 120.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
...it works.
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I sincerely hope you're not running a set that can't even touch Gengar, especially when you outspeed it. And I hope you're not running Bullet Punch either, with Talonflame around everywhere. Can we stop pretending Mega Luke has every coverage move? Because when you realize that some of them are missing and you're faced with a Fighting-resist/immunity, it can be hard if not impossible to take it out. I personally think Mega Luke is the least threatening suspect.
Genesect's insane momentum was so good in OU last year that it completely shit on the weather statistics and shot itself up to #1. And this time around it's proving to be just as much. When you look at what the move U-turn actually does, you realize how stupidly good Genesect is at fulfilling its potential. Forcing your opponent to switch and U-turning when you don't have hazards up on your side is literally a 100% win situation for you in any context whatsoever. So when people say Heatran "counters" Genesect, I get skeptical, because how are you countering something if you pivot off of it to its counter? Genesect is too good for this metagame this time around, and is easily the most obvious bannable suspect.
Deoxys-S I'm also voting ban against just because it's able to create powerful 50/50 lead match-ups that favor it so grossly just because of how powerful its support move and speed tier is.
Just my 2¢
How many Pokemon do you usually lose before discovering what MLucario has for coverage? Mega-Lucario basically chooses its checks, and you don't know what these checks are until it's too late at 2 of your Pokemon are gone. Gengar only counters one set, Talonflame counters another, and Aegislash does decently against yet another. And these are only the physical variants, which many agree are weaker than the special ones. Gengar and Aegislash get completely wrecked by Dark Pulse. Talonflame does well, but you still need something to take on ESpeed variants.
If you need 3 pokemon to take on 3 different sets for a single Pokemon while losing one or two in the process, something is wrong.
Remember, you don't know what it has, so the safest thing to do is assume the worst, and if you do that, you lose every time.
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I am running a set that cannot harm Gengar. How is the Gengar user going to know that, though? Take a bet on it, when even +2 Ice Punch is an OHKO? Cmon man.
I get outsped by it anyways, due to Adamant Espeeds actually having a chance at OHKOing Talonflame from full hp.
With that said, when Close Combat 2HKOs Gliscor... it really doesn't need much anything else. And no, Gliscor can't switch in before it knows the set, as +2 Flash Cannon is a straight OHKO.
This mon doesn't carry every move on the set... but you don't know what coverage move it does have until it hits you. And by then you've basically succumbed to it's raw power.
It simply happens that not even 2* resistance is not always sufficient when going against the mighty CC of MLuke, and 112 speed is well beyond the level for almost anything to outspeed, and Espeed......
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Deoxys-S: I don't get why people think lead Deoxys-S with Dual Screens or Hazards is like the only set it can run at success. TrickScarf leads can mess with a bunch of crap that likes to switch in such as Aegislash and 4 Attacks + LO is an amazing revenge killer outspeeding Scarf Garchomp with good coverage being able to OHKO AV Conkeldurr and Mega Venusaur, something not many attackers can boast. I don't think it warrants a ban to Ubers however as Hazards + Recoil damage reduce the longevity of Attacking Deoxys-S while Hazards / Dual Screens die fairly quickly. Deoxys-S will probably be up for suspecting again once one or both of the other candidates are sent up (which will probably happen).
Genesect: Well, here's this damn thing again, boasting great coverage along with an amazing offensive ability to boost it's great mixed stats, it's no wonder why it's up for suspecting. Just to me, I think of it as a BW Jirachi sort of, in the unpredictability it possesses with such a large variety of sets from EBelt, to SG, to Scarf, possessing greater power with less bulk. It's not outstandingly fast as Scarf sets can be predicted around and every other set can just get blasted by something like Mega Charizard X/Y for example. It's not metagame breaking to the point where you have to use obscene counters to contain it (looking at you Mega Lucario) and proves to be an asset for offensive teams while being able to be contained by defensive teams.
Mega Lucario: What to say about this fucking thing. It's so damn strong it's unreal. A 120 BP attack on resisted hits is ?????? with amazing offensive stats along with a great speed tier what the hell else is there to say? When we have to resort to something like Defensive Moltres, PD Volcarona and shit like that to even get a grasp of this thing, you know it's broken. It's unhealthy for the metagame. You can take the average noob who understands the basics, let them slap on a Mega Lucario and wham, destroy teams. It's faster than Mega Kangashkan who got sent off while also having greater power, it seems like an absolute no brainer.
Genesect: Well, here's this damn thing again, boasting great coverage along with an amazing offensive ability to boost it's great mixed stats, it's no wonder why it's up for suspecting. Just to me, I think of it as a BW Jirachi sort of, in the unpredictability it possesses with such a large variety of sets from EBelt, to SG, to Scarf, possessing greater power with less bulk. It's not outstandingly fast as Scarf sets can be predicted around and every other set can just get blasted by something like Mega Charizard X/Y for example. It's not metagame breaking to the point where you have to use obscene counters to contain it (looking at you Mega Lucario) and proves to be an asset for offensive teams while being able to be contained by defensive teams.
Mega Lucario: What to say about this fucking thing. It's so damn strong it's unreal. A 120 BP attack on resisted hits is ?????? with amazing offensive stats along with a great speed tier what the hell else is there to say? When we have to resort to something like Defensive Moltres, PD Volcarona and shit like that to even get a grasp of this thing, you know it's broken. It's unhealthy for the metagame. You can take the average noob who understands the basics, let them slap on a Mega Lucario and wham, destroy teams. It's faster than Mega Kangashkan who got sent off while also having greater power, it seems like an absolute no brainer.
Out of Mega Lucario, Genesect, and Deoxys-S, Lucario has very little to no chance to stay in OU. 145/140/112 offenses are just impossible to handle. Lucario has a pretty easy time setting up a Sword Dance/Nasty Plot if it comes in on something that can't touch it, and can sweep very easily. Unlike Genesect and Deoxys S, Mega Lucario has little to no counters to it. Sure, Gliscor and Landorus-T can wall the physical set (if Lucario lacks Ice Punch), and other pokemon can wall the special set, but no Pokemon can wall both (I believe the best option atm is Zapdos? but inb4 Ice Punch). +2 guarentees a sweep more or less, and beyond that is overkill. The only way to handle it is to revenge kill it with faster Pokemon, but with access to Bullet Punch, Vacuum Wave, and Extreme Speed for Priority, can you survive a hit in order to revenge kill it?! If haxing it out is the only way to stop it atm (With Thunder Wave), then it has no place in OU.
Genesect has a strong counter, that being Heatran, but it can be problematic to deal with. Genescect might get banned.
Deoxys-S has either the option of running suicide lead or checking Scarfers. It doesn't have the best bulk to set hazards, or the best attack stats to deal massive damage, so Deoxys-S has the best chance of staying in OU. But we will see after judgement has been passed.
Genesect has a strong counter, that being Heatran, but it can be problematic to deal with. Genescect might get banned.
Deoxys-S has either the option of running suicide lead or checking Scarfers. It doesn't have the best bulk to set hazards, or the best attack stats to deal massive damage, so Deoxys-S has the best chance of staying in OU. But we will see after judgement has been passed.
Just gonna give my 2 cents
Firstly mega-Lucario.... Man, what do I say about this little prick he is stronger than fucking strong and has access to a movepool that could leave even macklemore at the Grammy's jealous. His major sets are Nasty Plot or Swords Dance which both can destroy the metagame in their own rights. Physical Luke: this beast has a standard set of SD/CC/ice punch and either crunch or extreme speed or even bullet punch. After a Swords Dance and factoring standard set on the Lando T with intimidate stated as a counter it does A lot of damage[[252 Atk Adaptability Mega Lucario Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Landorus-T: 155-183 (40.5 - 47.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery]]
Considering SR and the fact that Luke switches out mostly it can eventually bring down Lando-t as it now days runs more scared sets than leftover sets. Thus a prime counter is dead and It has then all rights to sweep up the enemy's team.
People also said Gliscor is a counter to the Physical Luke.... NO NO NO Ice punch is a very sure fire damaging counter here are some calcs to put it into perspective how much damage this shit does to Gliscor
252 Atk Mega Lucario Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 184+ Def Gliscor: 232-276 (65.5 - 77.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Poison Heal
Considering that Mega-Luke Gets up SD easily due to the switches it can rack up...
+2 252 Atk Mega Lucario Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 184+ Def Gliscor: 460-544 (129.9 - 153.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Lastly Some people say that talon flame can counter with galewings brave birds... Remember how i said Luke gets +2 easily and heres a final calc showing how badly an Extreme Speed can ruin TalonFlame
And there Ladies and gentleman is the physical set
+2 252 Atk Mega Lucario Extreme Speed vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 250-295 (83.8 - 98.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
And remember stealth cocks are easy to set up.
Now onto the Special set: This set is arguably easier to handle, but nevertheless just as threatening due to the superb coverage options at Lucario's disposal like aura sphere/flash cannon/dark pulse/ and other moves like dragon pulse etc. Allow Lucario to run a dangerous special set capable of covering a wide variety of threats. Now to the real issue with Lucario: NASTY PLOT.
That one turn it sets up all Lucario has to run is its dual stabs and vaccum wave. This essentially allows it to sweep teams without any aegi slash or other similar counters as its dual stabs are rather frightening.
Forging this set can lead to an even more dangerous set of Nasty Plot,Aura sphere, dark Pulse/shadowball and other coverage move which allows special luke to bypass aegislash and jellicent the 2 most common counters to special look. Also adaptability Aura sphere does a number on Blissey/Chansey and with nasty plot it can be very threatening to the blobs. Despite all this special luke is Prone to revenge killing as many things like scarfed- Lando T and talon flam resist it and can live with just enough or in talon flames case outright outspeed luke and revenge kill it therefore removing it completely. Here are some calculations to illustrate a special power.
2 252 SpA Adaptability Mega Lucario Vacuum Wave vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Talonflame: 125-148 (41.9 - 49.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
simply put talonflame is situational and with stealth rocks it is limited to its role of countering luke
+2 252 SpA Mega Lucario Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Jellicent: 258-304 (63.8 - 75.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Specially defensive Jellicent is the closest thing to a counter but fails to do anything back apart from a scald and this Luke can live
+2 252 SpA Mega Lucario Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Aegislash-Shield: 218-258 (67.2 - 79.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Only a 252 252 specially defensive aegislash can hope to tank a +2 SE move as shadowball and dark pulse have the same damage eolls proving that standard Aegislash is not even close to a counter
+2 252 SpA Adaptability Mega Lucario Aura Sphere vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 564-668 (78.9 - 93.5%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 SpA Adaptability Mega Lucario Aura Sphere vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 472-556 (67 - 78.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
The blobls are useless and i wont waist time discerning thier useless enss against mega luke
To say that lucario is uber worthy is a must and he should be banned until further notice
Now genesect: This shit as previously stated, is dependent on friggin u-turn or any other gimmicks. Genesect is not ban worthy as it is stone walled by Heatran day in and out. Furthermore it does not have reliable recovery and with u-turn + hazards it takes a lot of damage ad will kill itself. Also it uses physical sets which are all hard walled by gliscor aslong as it hasnt set up 2 much. They sy that talon flame should be vary of extreme speed but only noobs use extreme speed and even let it stay in on talon flame. Needless to say that the only concerning set is mixed expert belt or life orb as it can deal some surprise damage but is still owned by heatran. Between hazards, unreliable recovery, life orb recoil and talon flame with heatran gennesect this generation lacks the oomph it had in gen5 so it should not be banned
Last but not least: Deoxys s...... This thing is either hazardous or dual screens. What do they both have in common? Defog fucks them over. Since defog got buffed this gene there is nothing really going for Deoxys other than the nastyplot sweeper which can cause stall some issues as STAB +2 psycho boost is a bitch and psyshock eats up the blobs. For deo i say no ban as I is handled by a large number of things like mndibuzz, Togekiss, aegislash and mega scizor for starters. Interestingly, i am done wrighting for now!! if you read this dar then enjoy a magicarp GOD TIER meme
http://www.4shared.com/download/lHATtbVy/ku-xlarge.jpg
THANK YOU FOR READING AND HOPE U AGREE/DISAGREE WITH ME
I do a lot of playing on Pokemon Online, and we already sent Mega Luke to Ubers where he belongs. As for Genesect and Deo-S, I'd say that Genesect is gone. He is still just as dangerous as he was in BW2 and has even gotten some new tools. For those that are talking about Heatran as a counter, Heatran was a counter last gen; Genesect still got the hammer. He's as good as gone and I hope to never see him in an OU match again. Deo-S is probably going to end up staying. After all, he is over-shadowed by the other two suspects right now that it isn't obvious. He may need another test.
Ok mega Luke has already been talked about to death. So I'll talk about the other 3. Starting with genesect as much as I hate to say it he will probably be lost. Deoxys s will probably remain in ou but eventually he will return to the chopping block only to be banned. Many who say that Defoe is the downfall of deoxys s obviously don't remember it have access to taunt.
Also, those who say that Defog stops Deo-S clearly haven't heard of the LO set, which, I believe, is actually considered the most viable set. The great coverage and ability to go mixed by not needing too much Speed investment (I don't know if running anything less than max Speed is a thing due to scarfers, but running no speed outspeeds the entire unboosted tier, and 124 EVs is enough to outspeed Jolly/Timid 80 Base Speeds at +1, so there's that).
That being said, 95 base Attack/Special Attack stats aren't great.
Then again, Talonflame has even less and it does fine. Speed really seems to be everything.
what about AV lando-T? Heard that set is quite formidable.
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