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Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (B- and C+ Pokemon discussion)

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TalonRaptor core gen 6 lgi

Staraptor does not require support. It appreciates it though. Defog/Wish/Healing Wish/STAB Latias sounds dumb, but it is the best partner for it (aside from the Ice weakness, but Staraptor should be spending all its HP BBing everything, not taking hits.)
 
Spikes support is really all Staraptor ever needs,
That speed....

Isn't too bad actually. I agree with the C rank part, but it still is useful Wall-Smacking after some prior damage has been done.

Also, I am interested with it's ability to weaken the TFlame Counters, that could be extremely useful for teams that use him for lategame sweeping.

I think base 100 is actually a very good benchmark to be at. Pokemon are slowing down and moving EVs to bulk because all the Speed in the world (including this one weird Deo-S set-up I saw that hit around 16K Speed, I'd have to calc it out or something) isn't going to outspeed Brave Bird or Shadow Sneak. So Staraptor is now in a position to get many more Brave Birds off because stuff that might have outsped are now more concerned with living priority hits. Unfortunately for them, Reckless Brave Bird and Double Edge are 2HKOing some of the best OU has to offer (for some perspective, 252+ Atk Choice Band Reckless Staraptor Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Giratina: 232-274 (46 - 54.3%) -- 5.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery), so what could live Talonflame's Brave Bird is in no way living Staraptor's.
 
Whatever we say about staraptor can also be applied to darmanitan. They are very similar pokemon and I've used both to great extent. Darmanitan also pairs well with talonflame, and also char-x. Banded Darmanitan can 2HKO bulky Rotom-W with SR.

The nicer thing about darmanitan over staraptor is the life orb set is superior to the banded in most cases. It can u turn out, or run coverage, and also bluff. Staraptor doesn't have that. Staraptor is, darmanitan should be the same or perhaps higher. The main benefit is just having a more spammable stab (flying and normal have better neutral coverage), but darmanitan's FB is so strong it can take on a lot of bulky waters anyways, like rotom-W. Staraptor isn't getting past aegislash, and darmanitan can't get past stuff like 252/252+ suicune.

Both for around B-, C+ at worst. Darmanitan possibly B.
 
I literally said at the bottom of my post "It's not very good, honestly". I merely said I preferred it to everything else. I'm not terribly fond of the analytical set, because Aegislash walls it to hell and back, Greninja gets Protean and U-turn, and Brave Bird off a CB Talonflame is an OHKO.
I didn't miss what you said about it not being very good. What I was saying is that in addition to Starmie not being the premier spinner anymore, you are also not using a set designed for spinning. The defensive set gives up too much momentum in X and Y OU, and it does not beat any spinblockers.

Analytic Life Orb does beat Aegislash and other spinblockers.

252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Aegislash-Shield: 177-211 (54.6 - 65.1%) (Switch-in boost from Analytic)
252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Aegislash-Shield: 136-161 (41.9 - 49.6%) (Once Aegislash is already in)

252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Trevenant: 226-268 (60.4 - 71.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Starmie might actually even be underrated in this meta with Landorus-T running around and setting up the rocks. I find it annoying that Lando can switch in on Excadrill's spin so freely to set up rocks again.
 
252 Atk Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Starmie: 218-260 (83.5 - 99.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Those are not good odds for Starmie. I gotta give the edge to Excadrill, though, because he beats every Spin blocker. True, Starmie beats damn near every hazard setter (except Ferrothorn on HP Fire-less Starmie), but what does that matter when his job is to Spin and he can't?
 
I didn't miss what you said about it not being very good. What I was saying is that in addition to Starmie not being the premier spinner anymore, you are also not using a set designed for spinning. The defensive set gives up too much momentum in X and Y OU, and it does not beat any spinblockers.

Analytic Life Orb does beat Aegislash and other spinblockers.

252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Aegislash-Shield: 177-211 (54.6 - 65.1%) (Switch-in boost from Analytic)
252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Aegislash-Shield: 136-161 (41.9 - 49.6%) (Once Aegislash is already in)

252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Trevenant: 226-268 (60.4 - 71.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Starmie might actually even be underrated in this meta with Landorus-T running around and setting up the rocks. I find it annoying that Lando can switch in on Excadrill's spin so freely to set up rocks again.

Obviously Starmie is only in to spin and Aegislash (number 1 in usage) comes in to spinblock and takes over 50% from Analytic Hydro Pump. However, Aegislash can just do this:

252+ Atk Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Starmie: 242-283 (92.7 - 108.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

Evidently Starmie is coming in to spin so we can assume that SR or spikes is up. It will never get off the second Hydro Pump and therefore fails to spin against THE most common spin blocker in the game. Also Starmie's speed tier is not very good this gen because of Brave Birds and Shadow Sneaks everywhere. Not to mention, the item Assault Vest which greatly diminishes Starmie's ability to take out threats like Conkeldurr which it could in Gen 5. Also with Genesect U-turns literally everywhere, Starmie is forced out quite a bit and just loses momentum for a team. Neither defensive of offensive Starmie beats the most common spinblocker and has many flaws so I would give a C rank.
 
Whatever we say about staraptor can also be applied to darmanitan. They are very similar pokemon and I've used both to great extent. Darmanitan also pairs well with talonflame, and also char-x. Banded Darmanitan can 2HKO bulky Rotom-W with SR.

The nicer thing about darmanitan over staraptor is the life orb set is superior to the banded in most cases. It can u turn out, or run coverage, and also bluff. Staraptor doesn't have that. Staraptor is, darmanitan should be the same or perhaps higher. The main benefit is just having a more spammable stab (flying and normal have better neutral coverage), but darmanitan's FB is so strong it can take on a lot of bulky waters anyways, like rotom-W. Staraptor isn't getting past aegislash, and darmanitan can't get past stuff like 252/252+ suicune.

Both for around B-, C+ at worst. Darmanitan possibly B.
Yeah, um, no. Do they have similarities, sure, but there's a couple differences that I feel you haven't looked at. 1st, while they're both weak to SR, Darmanitan is also vulnerable to every other type of entry hazard, so it has a lot more difficulty switching in. 2nd, earthquake is one of the most common moves in the game, which Darmanitan is often OHKO'd by while Staraptor is immune. Darmanitan is also weak to water, a reasonably common offensive type. Staraptor is weak to ice and electric, which while its nothing is infinitely better than fire. 3rd, Darmanitan is outclassed by a lot of fire types, Staraptor isn't strictly outclassed by anything.

Darmanitan being B? Not happening
 
Yeah, um, no. Do they have similarities, sure, but there's a couple differences that I feel you haven't looked at. 1st, while they're both weak to SR, Darmanitan is also vulnerable to every other type of entry hazard, so it has a lot more difficulty switching in. 2nd, earthquake is one of the most common moves in the game, which Darmanitan is often OHKO'd by while Staraptor is immune. Darmanitan is also weak to water, a reasonably common offensive type. Staraptor is weak to ice and electric, which while its nothing is infinitely better than fire. 3rd, Darmanitan is outclassed by a lot of fire types, Staraptor isn't strictly outclassed by anything.

Darmanitan being B? Not happening

Different defensive resistances are moot points since they aren't really switching in on anything. Any pokemon that carries EQ can also promptly KO staraptor with rock slide, so I don't understand your point here. Sure, I'll give you that staraptor can switch in on earthquakes, but all earthquake pokemon have some form of coverage that involves hp ice, rock slide, etc... so it'd take some prediction.

Darmanitan is not outclassed by fire types because none of them can wallbreak like darmanitan can. Arcanine/Entei are more supportive, charizard X requires a mega and is more for set up sweeping. Darmanitan hits harder than any fire type right on turn 1, and destroys all walls bar the most defensive bulky waters - and no rotom w does not really count.
 
Different defensive resistances are moot points since they aren't really switching in on anything. Any pokemon that carries EQ can also promptly KO staraptor with rock slide.
252+ Atk Mold Breaker Excadrill Rock Slide vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Staraptor: 248-292 (79.4 - 93.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Mold Breaker Excadrill Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Darmanitan: 596-704 (169.8 - 200.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

About that............
 
Different defensive resistances are moot points since they aren't really switching in on anything. Any pokemon that carries EQ can also promptly KO staraptor with rock slide, so I don't understand your point here. Sure, I'll give you that staraptor can switch in on earthquakes, but all earthquake pokemon have some form of coverage that involves hp ice, rock slide, etc... so it'd take some prediction.

Darmanitan is not outclassed by fire types because none of them can wallbreak like darmanitan can. Arcanine/Entei are more supportive, charizard X requires a mega and is more for set up sweeping. Darmanitan hits harder than any fire type right on turn 1, and destroys all walls bar the most defensive bulky waters - and no rotom w does not really count.
Main differences between Darm and Staraptor:
>Speed
It might not seem too big, but 95 and 100 is actually one of the grandest chasms in the speed tiers.
>Coverage
I don't remember who it ws, but someone said that Flying/Fighting/Normal is worse coverage than Fire/Rock/Grouncd (or Fighting), but that person forgets that Flying/fighting is an extremely good coverage, and with Normal simply to be a backup option. Sure, Aegislash takes it on, but this is Raptor we're talking about. BB is a 3HKO on Max HP Aegi, and Aegi can't do too much back to Raptor.

Darm might outpower, but BB has better coverage overall. Raptor can run CB without too much worry too, whilst CB Darm is not an optimal option.
 
starmie may have more competition for a teamslot with Excadrill as an offensive spinner (that has STAB Mold Breaker EQ to hit nearly every common ghost type hard, more bulk, access to Stealth Rock and could become the fastest spinner in the game with Sand Rush) AND defoggers like Latias, Mandibuzz and Scizor-Mega, but it's still one of the 2 best offensive spinners there is. I'd go B- honestly, while Excadrill is mostly better right now, I wouldn't say that Starmie has been completely eclipsed as an alternative. Sort of in the same boat as Terrakion right now; still a good pokemon, but has the metagame working against it.

Also Staraptor is amazing and any suggestion less than a B- is flat out wrong. Banded Staraptor can easily break through Talonflame's 2 biggest counters in Tyranitar and Rotom-W, which makes the 2 on the same team so deadly. It might not have much survivability, but I swear that about 9/10 battles it gets a KO before it dies. Great as a late-game cleaner or a lead. Use it either with Talonflame or on a team that has trouble with bulky grass types and you're golden.
 
I'd like to nominate Hydreigon for B rank, and for one simple reason: Coverage. It has access to Surf, Earth Power, Flash Cannon, Fire Blast, and Focus Blast as well as many great physical moves, including U-Turn, on top of two fantastic STABs. Latios can't OHKO lucario with hidden power fire, and can only Surf against steel types that aren't called Ferrothorn. Hydreigon is a little slow, but it has Tailwind and goes well with a scarf.
 
Yes, I am aware that Aegislash has Shadow Sneak. That wasn't an oversight. Those calcs were to prove that Aegislash doesn't 'wall' Starmie, as it is only capable of switching in once. This metagame is not so hyper offensive that Starmie can only participate two turns in your average battle. It is also not so unkind to Starmie as to deserve a flat C rank. B- would be my guess; it can hang with the rest of 6th gen's titans, but just barely.

By the way, Starmie dumps on Assault Vest Conkeldurr with Psyshock. Good luck switching that in. And if you do, I am getting my spin.
 
252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mandibuzz: 224-265 (52.8 - 62.5%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Mold Breaker Excadrill Rock Slide vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 130-154 (30.6 - 36.3%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Crobat: 257-304 (68.7 - 81.2%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Mold Breaker Excadrill Rock Slide vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Crobat: 224-264 (59.8 - 70.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery

-1 252+ Atk Mold Breaker Excadrill Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Landorus-T: 109-129 (28.5 - 33.7%) -- 96.8% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Landorus-T: 510-603 (133.5 - 157.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Ferrothorn: 95-112 (26.9 - 31.8%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252+ Atk Mold Breaker Excadrill Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 109-130 (30.9 - 36.9%) -- 75.7% chance to 3HKO

252+ Atk Mold Breaker Excadrill Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Forretress: 105-124 (29.6 - 35%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Forretress: 296-348 (83.6 - 98.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Now here are calcs, first two are defoggers, why haven't anyone mentioned that Starmie does better at defoggers? Starmie is doing better against defoggers.

Landorus-T is gonna come in, either scare away Excadrill and puts Rocks again, or just Rock Slide/Iron Head miserably.
Starmie does a MUCH better job. Starmie can deal with SR setters.

Against Ferrothorn, another pokemon who can set up hazards, in this case, Exca win. But against Forretresss, Starmie wins.

Starmie is also used for offensive purposes.

252 SpA Choice Specs Starmie Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mandibuzz: 256-302 (60.3 - 71.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Analytic Starmie Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mandibuzz: 332-392 (78.3 - 92.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Choice Specs Analytic Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Umbreon: 175-207 (44.4 - 52.5%) -- 80.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Umbreon: 135-160 (34.2 - 40.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Choice Specs Analytic Starmie Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 280-331 (39.7 - 47%) -- 41.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Starmie Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 217-256 (30.8 - 36.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

Those are calcs with Analytic + without it. Starmie is also very very fast, something Excadrill lacks.

I'm not saying Starmie > Excadrill (whoa there) but I'm saying it should deserve more than a C rank, It's only partially outclassed by Excadrill. I'm nominating it for B-
 
Now here are calcs, first two are defoggers, why haven't anyone mentioned that Starmie does better at defoggers? Starmie is doing better against defoggers.

Landorus-T is gonna come in, either scare away Excadrill and puts Rocks again, or just Rock Slide/Iron Head miserably.
Starmie does a MUCH better job. Starmie can deal with SR setters.

Against Ferrothorn, another pokemon who can set up hazards, in this case, Exca win. But against Forretresss, Starmie wins.

Starmie is also used for offensive purposes.

I think those points can easily sum up the Starmie vs Exca comparison well. As coupled with its speed and some great power (not stupid strong, but strong), it has the needs for B ranking, and as it seems B- is the idea for it.

Then on the Staraptor idea, when it comes down to it, Star just seems like the stronger slower version that can pack a stupid strong punch while we get the fast cleaner. He also seems like another current C+ rank poke, Salamence (god I hate that thing) in all honesty, so I believe C- or C seems more fitting for him as he gets great coverage with Normal back up and a scouting move in U-turn (everything gets that).
 
Conkeldurr and Dragonite should be moved up to A+ because they can sponge almost any hit, hit back hard, and recover off with Drain Punch and Roost respectively.
 
Conkeldurr and Dragonite should be moved up to A+ because they can sponge almost any hit, hit back hard, and recover off with Drain Punch and Roost respectively.

Dragonite still has a crippling weakness to rocks because it loses Multiscale and the majority or it's effectiveness. Also with Genesect everywhere even at +1 Dragonite cannot pull off a sweep. Add to that pokemon like Greninja who can OHKO through Multiscale and Dragonite has lost some effectiveness in the transition to Gen 6. I think it should stay at A Rank. As for Conkeldurr two things are stopping it from A+. One is it's lack of speed which has always been a thorn in its side. Two is Talonflame. With this bird literally everywhere, Conkeldurr is forced out quite a bit and loses some momentum for the team. This dude should also be kept at A Rank.
 
That lack of Speed is very crucial to the operations of Drain Punch, if you understand turn order significance in battles.
 
Dragonite still has a crippling weakness to rocks because it loses Multiscale and the majority or it's effectiveness. Also with Genesect everywhere even at +1 Dragonite cannot pull off a sweep. Add to that pokemon like Greninja who can OHKO through Multiscale and Dragonite has lost some effectiveness in the transition to Gen 6. I think it should stay at A Rank. As for Conkeldurr two things are stopping it from A+. One is it's lack of speed which has always been a thorn in its side. Two is Talonflame. With this bird literally everywhere, Conkeldurr is forced out quite a bit and loses some momentum for the team. This dude should also be kept at A Rank.
Just one thing to mention, Dragonite can OHKO Genesect with Fire Punch before a boost, but what you said about rocks is right and Genesect beats Dragonite when rocks are up.
252+ Atk Dragonite Fire Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Genesect: 384-456 (135.6 - 161.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
I do agree with the rankings however, and am wondering whether these two will stay at A or drop.
 
Dragonite still has a crippling weakness to rocks because it loses Multiscale and the majority or it's effectiveness. Also with Genesect everywhere even at +1 Dragonite cannot pull off a sweep. Add to that pokemon like Greninja who can OHKO through Multiscale and Dragonite has lost some effectiveness in the transition to Gen 6. I think it should stay at A Rank. As for Conkeldurr two things are stopping it from A+. One is it's lack of speed which has always been a thorn in its side. Two is Talonflame. With this bird literally everywhere, Conkeldurr is forced out quite a bit and loses some momentum for the team. This dude should also be kept at A Rank.

You're missing the big picture - Dragonite has versatility. It can run almost any set imaginable, and do so fairly effectively. Greninja doesn't always KO either. Some bulky sets can survive the Ice Beam.

I think that Dragonite has too many pros and not enough cons to be any lower than A+. Nothing outclasses its Dragon Dance sets, which can run a whole bunch of different moves and items.

Secondly, Conkeldurr has never had a Speed problem. In Gen 5, people were even lowering its Speed to take advantage of Payback. Your points are basically that both mons have checks, which isn't really a valid reason to deny them a higher ranking.
 
You're missing the big picture - Dragonite has versatility. It can run almost any set imaginable, and do so fairly effectively. Greninja doesn't always KO either. Some bulky sets can survive the Ice Beam.

I think that Dragonite has too many pros and not enough cons to be any lower than A+. Nothing outclasses its Dragon Dance sets, which can run a whole bunch of different moves and items.

Secondly, Conkeldurr has never had a Speed problem. In Gen 5, people were even lowering its Speed to take advantage of Payback. Your points are basically that both mons have checks, which isn't really a valid reason to deny them a higher ranking.

Dragonite can run a few different sets. It can run offensive/mixed, or it can run a support shuffling set. These are its two main options that cant be immediately discerned from team preview (eg. if we see politoed then we might begin to wonder about a hurricane set)

The other pokemon in A+ can run all their different sets viably and not predicting correctly will put you far behind in the match in as much as a single turn. Expecting a specially defensive rotom-W and suddenly getting tricked a scarf is huge. Or expecting a heatran to be the usual set but then suddenly getting trapped by Magma storm and poisoned. Dragonite has an issue in the fact that he can run several sets but the only main one you need to prepare for is the regular dragon dance set, because none of the others are scary. Shuffler dragonite has the same counters as the regular one and more. The only one-dimensional pokemon in A+ tier are Manaphy, Talonflame and Mega Pinsir, and these guys are special for being able to punch holes reliably in almost ANY team due to the difficulty of dealing with an instant +3 sweeper or a +1 gazillion damage priority move.
Like I said before Landorus-T has a bunch of different sets and is one of the best pivots in the game but he still deserves A tier rather than A+ because he's not versatile, even if he does have good coverage and offensive and defensive sets.

Idk, if you have a stealth rock weakness I think you should have a VERY compelling reason to be put into A+ tier and Im not sure if dragonite, one of the pokemon most crippled by SR has a good enough reason
 
Dragonite is still versatile and effective, but the big difference now is that Dragonite has quite a bit of competition. DDNite is still dangerous, but contends with XZard and Zygarde, who have better alternate STABs and typing that shields them from such effects as burn or SR (Dragonite is susceptible to both), and then there's Haxorus cutting right through Unaware Clefable. Mixed Nite is outclassed by Hydreigon who has buffed Dark STAB. Rain Nite is already struggling to stay relevant due to the weather nerf, but even then it may be overlooked due to Assault Vest Tornadus-T making a faster, stronger, and comparably bulky Hurricane spammer and Goodra being a Dragon with more helpful resists / synergy with Rain. Even parashuffler sets are outdone by Glare Zygarde at this point. Fairies are no help.

Conkeldurr's speed problem never really showed until Fairies arrived on the scene, where Sylveon, Azumarill, and Mawile would be ready to lay the hurt on it. Oh, and they resist a good majority of its moveset so that compounds the issue. Conkeldurr may be good at tanking, especially with the weather nerf making boosted Water attacks and Hurricanes not omnipresent, but it still can't really stick around Bulk Upping since dangerous Flying-types in Talonflame, Mega Pinsir, and Tornadus-T are lurking about (something 5th Gen lacked), so its versatility is cut further.

These two could still make A+. I'm just giving my opinion on their (new) flaws that may hold them back and to let people know they aren't "nothing but improved Pokemon" due to stuff like Defog buff & Weakness Policy, or Knock Off buff & Assault Vest.
 
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Dragonite still has a crippling weakness to rocks because it loses Multiscale and the majority or it's effectiveness. Also with Genesect everywhere even at +1 Dragonite cannot pull off a sweep. Add to that pokemon like Greninja who can OHKO through Multiscale and Dragonite has lost some effectiveness in the transition to Gen 6. I think it should stay at A Rank. As for Conkeldurr two things are stopping it from A+. One is it's lack of speed which has always been a thorn in its side. Two is Talonflame. With this bird literally everywhere, Conkeldurr is forced out quite a bit and loses some momentum for the team. This dude should also be kept at A Rank.
Charizard X has arguably a worse weakness to rocks, as between rocks and flare blitz, he takes a lot of damage without even getting hit. Besides, with defog, SR is pretty easy to keep away. He has reliable recovery, so he can restore multiscale a lot of the time anyway. I don't see how Genesect hurts him as only scarfed ice beams are a problem, and those often are desired because they activate weakness policy. I don't see how dragonite has lost effectiveness, especially with the new weakness policy (its without a doubt the best abuser of it), as Greninja is outsped and OHKO'd after 1 DD, fairies pretty much all suck against him (exceptions include Togekiss, Clefable, and Azumarill depending on the set), and now there are less faster dragons to revenge kill him. I believe it should be A+, but if you think differently, you'll have to come up with better arguments than that.

Dragonite is still versatile and effective, but the big difference now is that Dragonite has quite a bit of competition. DDNite is still dangerous, but contends with XZard and Zygarde, who have better alternate STABs and typing that shields them from such effects as burn or SR (Dragonite is susceptible to both), and then there's Haxorus cutting right through Unaware Clefable. Mixed Nite is outclassed by Hydreigon who has buffed Dark STAB. Rain Nite is already struggling to stay relevant due to the weather nerf, but even then it may be overlooked due to Assault Vest Tornadus-T making a faster, stronger, and comparably Hurricane spammer and Goodra being a Dragon with more helpful resists / synergy with Rain. Even parashuffler sets are outdone by Glare Zygarde at this point. Fairies are no help.

Conkeldurr's speed problem never really showed until Fairies arrived on the scene, where Sylveon, Azumarill, and Mawile would be ready to lay the hurt on it. Oh, and they resist a good majority of its moveset so that compounds the issue. Conkeldurr may be good at tanking, especially with the weather nerf making boosted Water attacks and Hurricanes not omnipresent, but it still can't really stick around Bulk Upping since dangerous Flying-types in Talonflame, Mega Pinsir, and Tornadus-T are lurking about (something 5th Gen lacked), so its versatility is cut further.

These two could still make A+. I'm just giving my opinion on their (new) flaws that may hold them back and to let people know they aren't "nothing but improved Pokemon" due to stuff like Defog buff & Weakness Policy, or Knock Off buff & Assault Vest.
It does have competition now, but Zygarde is very situational and comparing Charizard and Dragonite is almost as pointless as comparing Dragonite to Salamence was not to long ago. Which one's better depends on the person and the team. Dragonite's susceptibility to status is a problem, but that's also why his lum berry set still works. I miss his rain teams, but the new weakness policy makes up for it as now only a select few can afford to risk hitting him with super effective attacks until Multiscale is gone. You're right that most of Dragonite's sets have been either overshadowed, or made completely irrelavent, but the ones that are left are better off (I'm not sure about sets running leftovers, but its lum berry and weaknite sets definitely are.)



As for Conkeldurr, I'm still making up my mind. He's great offensively and defensively, but I haven't decided whether his flaws are enough to hold him back from A+.
 
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