Metagame XY Doubles OU (VR Post #2, Samples Post #3)

[talkingtree]

I didn't have the greatest tour performance this year, but I wanted to share some of the teams that did work and some of the ideas that are actually worth sharing. Click the sprites for a pokepaste; I don't remember what a lot of the spreads do but if you really need to know, feel free to ask and you might get lucky with my remembering the answer (Scroll down for my favorite, the Mega Camerupt team).

Week 1 vs Yellow Paint --
I wanted to go with something more comfortable for week 1, and after I made a few quick uninspiring builds Bagel also noticed that Diancie + Gastro looked pretty solid into Paint's teams from last year. This was largely inspired by the team Idyll made last year, with a few other changes for things that I prefer and slight changes to the meta. Substitute Mega Gengar is a huge comfort pick for me, but also helped with Amoonguss. Diancie should probably be Safety Goggles on this team, Hard Stone was a greed pick because Paint wasn't a huge Amoonguss user. Gastrodon is typically better off with Toxic > Protect as well, but with Paint's more offensive style I felt Protect was better here. The game itself was a bit of a haxfest, but I felt alright about how the team performed and somehow squeaked out a win with some well-timed flinches.

As far as possible changes, Conkeldurr could maybe be Iron Fist on this team since Gastrodon already discourages the usage of Steam Eruption. Speaking of Gastrodon, my spread here was also a bit greedy (and I later fixed in in my Week 6 team, more on that later). Here, the greed got punished because Paint's Conkeldurr shouldn't have been able to get that KO with a better, more defensive, spread. I also am probably using the wrong Gastrodon forme for the vibes of the team -- blue Gastro here is just my bias showing.

Week 2 vs Idyll/Memoric --
Normally I wouldn't bother talking about a pretty standard-looking Kang Deo-S team, but there were a few techs that I think paid off even if the game didn't end up the way I'd hoped. Fran brought up the idea of Substitute Mega Kangaskhan, which was a great twist on the general idea and really popped off in testing. Many people will play around Mega Kang by switching to a Helmet user or using Protect to dodge Fake Out, giving it a free chance to set up Substitute. This also helps it evade Toxic users like Gastrodon and Aegislash. I should've been more careful to not target a Helmet mon with Seismic Toss, but the set definitely has potential if anyone else wants to run with it.

As far as other techs, Volcanion was originally Flame Charge > Hidden Power Ice as a 4th move, but I was too eager to use my clever tech in testing and kept clicking it at times where it lost me the game, so I reluctantly changed to something that would give me a panic button answer to Mega Salamence... which later proceeded to crush me along with redirection from Blastoise. Oh well. I almost also brought Lum Berry Taunt Deoxys-S (and Helmet SR Lando-T) instead, geared towards preventing non-Taunt Thundurus from paralyzing it, but Taunt was becoming more and more popular as time went on anyway, so I stuck with the more standard Deoxys-S variant.

Week 6 vs SingleThunder --
I had really underperformed to my expectations up to this point in the season, and finally inspiration struck with this squad. In tests and actual games I was getting rolled by CB Genesect, so I was on the lookout for anything that had a decent matchup into it. Enter Mega Camerupt, a forgotten legend of ORAS past and, conveniently enough, a fun pick for my opponent in particular due to their history with it. I immediately realized that it might also be able to do some fun things into other common threats like Volcanion, Thundurus, and Amoonguss, and got to work crafting a team around it. The key set appeared to be Substitute with Stealth Rock support, which accomplished the following:

calcs

252+ SpA Sheer Force Camerupt-Mega Earth Power vs. 248 HP / 204 SpD Assault Vest Volcanion: 270-318 (74.3 - 87.6%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Sheer Force Camerupt-Mega Heat Wave vs. 252 HP / 84 SpD Amoonguss: 390-462 (90.2 - 106.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock (many run more SpDef than this, so I never played as if it was guaranteed)
Sub takes:
4+ SpA Thundurus Hidden Power Ice vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Camerupt-Mega: 56-66 (16.3 - 19.2%) -- possible 6HKO
0 SpA Amoonguss Giga Drain vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Camerupt-Mega: 67-81 (19.5 - 23.6%) -- possible 5HKO
56 Atk Kangaskhan-Mega Sucker Punch vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Camerupt-Mega: 73-87 (21.2 - 25.3%) -- 0.2% chance to 4HKO
-2 252 Atk Landorus-Therian Superpower vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Camerupt-Mega: 71-84 (20.6 - 24.4%) -- guaranteed 5HKO (Intimidate + using it once)

Bronzong was the perfect Camerupt partner, with its ability to set all of TR, SR, and Sun. I almost greeded Heatproof, thinking that everyone would just presume Levitate and never bother to check, but I'm very glad I didn't because it might've lost the game when SingleThunder kept me honest. Gastrodon was another obvious bring, supporting Camerupt with Storm Drain and Helmet/Toxic chip to help it clean, and it had done so well beside Diancie earlier that I brought back that duo. For the last two slots, I committed to full TR which felt like it was due for a bit of a resurgence. Cresselia just doesn't die and also offers a secondary wincon, and Hitmontop enables TR setting and offers Intimidate support for Camerupt's Sub and Cresselia's setup.

There are definitely a few choices here that lean on this team's strength into SingleThunder's tendencies from the tour, but it's honestly strong into a lot of the meta right now and almost won me a few tests that I had no business making close. The game went about as smoothly as possible, with the key turn being Turn 5, where I realized there was a good shot I could set up a Sub and give Camerupt free reign to start spamming attacks. Even with two missed Heat Waves, it still got 4 kills this game. I understand why half of this team is UR on the current VR, but I honestly wasn't making team choices to flex or be different; these are just the best 6 Pokemon for the job I had in mind.

This is the fixed Gastrodon spread I alluded to earlier -- instead of substantial SpA investment, it leans more into the defensive niches filled by our favorite slug. The new spread underspeeds min Speed Conkeldurr, takes +SpA Deo-A Psycho Boost, and takes two Knock Offs from LO Bisharp since the second hit will be targetting itemless Gastro. There are surely better benchmarks out there, but the key is that Gastrodon can tank more hits, especially physically. Bronzong almost had random Hypnosis somewhere (probably over Sunny Day), but I didn't feel confident in my ability to hit. Hitmontop has a variety of different viable items, including Eject Button and Shed Shell, both of which I tested but neither quite came in handy.

~~~

There was a pretty clear connection between the weeks where I found/made the time to prep and the weeks where I at least had a solid game -- it took a while, but the lesson has finally sunk in that I have to try to be good at the game. With how busy life has kept me, this might mean that this was my last tournament (a bold claim, I know). Just in case it is, I wanted to give a big thank you to everyone on Thieves for making it as positive an experience as possible, especially Fran bage1 and Toxigen for helping me with significant testing, building input, and moral support over the weeks.

 

[laptops]

I had a lot of fun playing xy this dpl; it's become my favorite tier by far! It was my first dpl as a starter and I am more than satisfied with my 5-2 record.

as a student of qsns i was very encouraged to just bring the brokens. This is exactly what I did for the entirety of the time the storms were in playoff contention and it worked quite well. I feel like mega+conk+ltv teams are readily available and you can check memo's ltv dissertation for more info on why this structure is so potent. The rest of my teams included sample rain (lol) and two unserious teams (gorgeist sun/stoutland sand) which I likely wouldn't have brought had those games mattered. If you're interested in any of these teams shoot me a dm and maybe i'll throw them in the dump thread

I was, however, really proud of the team I brought in my final dpl x game vs talkingtree

Team Report

It is one of my favorite teams I've built in quite a while and I think shows that you can get away with bringing unconventional/unmeta structures and still be competitive. I believe Kyle put it well in his dpl 8 wrapup post

As I have famously said, I think you can win in XY with just about anything and I still believe that. I think what is in tier 4 and what is just outside of it exist in this weird cloud of viability where we see a few bits at a time--there are only so many games in a tournament--but if you’re feeling a little wild stuff... Try some cool Pokémon in xy if you’re feeling it.

The xy metagame has seen a large move towards bulky offense, with many mons opting to max out defensive investment and look to win the game through outtrading their opponent. This week I was wanting to show that you don't have to use low t sets in xy to win.

I started off with the combination of offensive mence+ aegi. With bulky toxic aegi seeing a crazy surge in usage I felt like an offensive set could could get the jump on my opponent and surprise them with its damage output. Mence is a great partner for aegi because it can help chunk common aegi switchings like av volcanion with its flying stab, while wide guard aegislash can keep mence save from threatening spread moves (ie. hyper voice and rock slide).

I wanted fighting coverage in this slot. AV conk probably also does well enough here, but with only mence outspeeding base 100's I wanted something that could be immediately threatening to kang, and given that I would be setting up rain, another water resist definitely helps being able to switch into steam eruptions.

Mence teams naturally need to have a hard stop to thundurus-i to be able function well, and I gave this job to its brother thundurus-t. This guy hits like a truck, especially with specs. Most people who run this guy in xy opt for a wimpy low t av set and just like with aegi I thought the surprise factor of fully offensive could catch opponents off guard and net some surprise ko's, which is exactly what happened t1 of my game vs ttree.

I initially thought the best way to round out the team would be a rain sweeper. I was looking to style again like I did with stoutland and almost had kabutops in this slot. Thankfully zee talked me out of it and got me to use a real guy. Thunder p2 gave me a mode of speed control and thunders in the rain hit hard with a download boost. Without a swift swimmer there was no reason to run the traditional eject button set on toed to be able to set up rain and pivot into said sweeper. Unfortunately, politoed is kinda a huge momentum sink a lot of times. This is where zee came in clutch again and suggested a bulky helmet set with hypnosis. In situations where it doesn't wanna click scald it can just fish for sleep. If you're lucky like I was vs ttree this can make the game near unplayable for your opponent.

VR Noms

https://tiermaker.com/create/xy-dou-tiermaker-625518-2

this is my rough impression of the tier after dpl and i will make some short noms about the guys i feel strongly about.
-> t1 I think this guy is a clear step above gar in general, but with deospeed being everyone's new favorite toy it's realllly hard to justify using gar>kang in the mega slot. literally no reason not to bring kang.
->t2 band gene feels so strong on every single playstyle, not just ho like many other priority spammers. this thing is far away the best steel in the tier and deospeed is able to get rocks up every single game which makes it very easy to get things into espeed range.
->t2/3 the spdef toxic set does really well into the current meta and can sit on the field forever. i think the offensive set is still usable, but i think the spdef set it really what should cause it to rise.
->t2 i echo the fraud allegations zee has made about lando-t, but aim them at its genie counterpart. this guy feels like the least mandatory part of the ltv gang. i feel like it kinda bricks into some matchups and stealth rocks being up every single game hurts its bulk. the main problem i have with it now is that its primary utility tool in speed checking the tier with prankster twave has become considerably harder now that band gene is everywhere and can drop it from full.

Shoutouts

thank you qsns and eragon for taking a chance on me despite me never having played an xy game in tour. thank you Croven for being my favorite guy to team with, you've got an incredible mind for doubles and i love sitting in vc. zee is the greatest mind to touch xy thank you for help testing or building and ty to all of church for being such an encouragement this season.

 

[zee]

Welcome to my post-DPL XY post. Looking at my teams and play from last DPL, I knew I could do better going into this tournament. So I set out to do just that. zaaya's Deoxys-S team from XY Cup had caught my eye since its debut and I had messed around with it here and there in the months leading up to the tournament. I really liked using my Deoxys-S variants but I don't think I could've foreseen the types of teams I would've brought to regular season ahead of time. So what made me believe in Deoxys-S so much?

Kangaskhan + Deoxys-S Synergy
+

These two are such a perfect lead in the metagame if you're facing anything that isn't fullroom or mega sableye stall. The obvious play is Fake Out + Stealth Rock and it's good for a reason, a lot of XY is quite vulnerable to Stealth Rock. One common set you'll see on Kangaskhan teams these days is Rocky Helmet Landorus-T, which Deoxys snipes with Ice Beam before Kangaskhan can lose 1/3 of its health. Psycho Boost + Seismic Toss picks up Conkeldurr, which is generally a team's most offensive way to handle Kangaskhan, but oftentimes they're forced to take the hit or practically lose another Pokemon on switchin, such as in the linked game. Deoxys isn't actually hitting that hard unless you're hitting things for weakness, but that's where Kangaskhan picks up the slack, since a Seismic Toss and round of rocks chip is enough to put a lot of things in range of an attack from Deoxys. People have picked up on Aegislash as an antilead for this core during DPL, and while it is a decent annoyance, it isn't exactly immune to getting Scrappy Fake Out'd while Deoxys sets rocks and pivots out to Thundurus or Volcanion or something.

This duo is surprisingly flexible. Kangaskhan really only has two moves it needs to run while Deoxys has about 2.8 (I don't think I'd ever really drop Ice Beam but maybe someone could sell me on it). Kangaskhan's other viable moves (imo) include Low Kick, Protect, Crunch, Sucker Punch, Helping Hand, Safeguard, Fire Punch, and Disable, while Deoxys's options include (but certainly aren't limited to) Spikes, Ally Switch, Taunt, Skill Swap, Magic Coat, Knock Off, Thunder Wave, Fire Punch/HP Fire, Energy Ball/Grass Knot, Light Screen/Reflect, or even just Protect. These flex moves are imo really important to take into account when building and shouldn't be taken for granted. For instance, against SMB I gave my Deoxys-S Taunt because I figured he would play a slower strategy that would give me room to punish with Taunt, whereas vs Jello I used Energy Ball with Helping Hand Kangaskhan to pick up Gastrodon and Mega Swampert, since 1) I lost to Gastrodon in the previous week and 2) Jello was coming off a win with Mega Swampert where I gave him a tech specifically to help with the Genesect Deoxys Kangaskhan matchup.

The Genie


In chronological order, I used Landorus-T for week 1, Landorus-I for weeks 2-4, and Thundurus for weeks 5-7. Landorus-T is regarded as one of the best, if not the best Pokemon in XY DOU, but I must admit sometimes I find it a bit of a challenge to actually fit on teams. Running LandoT just seems to lead to having to make a lot of concessions in the builder: physical scarf needs to built with Earthquake partners in mind, which isn't exactly the easiest to accomplish in the Stealth Rock spam era. Special/Mixed Scarf bypasses this problem by running Earth Power, but is met with the new issue of settling for Earth Power on the 105 SpAtk mon in a tier where everything has giga spdef. Rocky Helmet compresses an Intimidate pivot and a Rocks Slot into one mon, but it's slower and imo a bit less reliable than Deoxys, and certainly nowhere near as powerful with Kangaskhan save turning 0 Atk Guts Conkeldurr Drain Punch into a 3HKO... Assault Vest hasn't seen a ton of play this DPL and for good reason, the metagame is getting more physical and assault vest gives you 0 utility since it's a slot that doesn't outspeed Kangaskhan nor punish its Seismic Toss.

Landorus-I was a very pleasant experience for me. Week 2 I used Earth Power / Psychic / Rock Slide, Week 3 I used HP Ice over Rock Slide (in the week I pulled Charizard no less, sorry Paint for having to force the speedtie because of this unoptimal choice), and Week 4 I used Choice Scarf with Grass Knot to outrun Mega Swampert in the rain because I had a hunch that tree would look at the teams I'd been using this season and say "yeah rain makes sense". Funny enough the Choice Scarf never really came into play because Landorus hit the field at the very last turn of the match. Anyway, the reason I like it is because it's everything Landorus-T isn't. It outspeeds Kangaskhan and hits hard without having to make those previously mentioned concessions. It can run Psychic to hit the new Big Man On Campus Conkeldurr for a big chunk instead of just turning its 2hkoes/ohkoes into 3hkoes/2hkoes, and gets a powerful flex slot which I think I've beaten to death how important that is (but it won't be the last you hear about it). But yeah, I had already thought about Aegislash from week 2 onwards and added Landorus as a means to pressure it and Volcanion, as Earth Power will pop AV Volc after Rocks should I not have Kangaskhan to chunk it with Seismic Toss.

For the backend of regular season I switched to Thundurus. My friends will know I've always been a bit of a Thundurus doubter, especially after my loss to SingleThunder where I ranted the entire weekend that Thundurus is only good for parafishing and nothing else. However, there were a few things that made me switch to Thundurus that I'll elaborate on a bit more in their sections, but the main thing is that Sky Drop + HP Ice turbo Thundurus opens up the game for Bisharp and Conkeldurr a lot, especially because I started switching to Iron Fist Conkeldurr over Guts. Having fast Sky Drop is genuinely incredible, I think being able to pick up something before Mega Kangaskhan can move is a massive gamechanger that puts the ball in your court a lot. The other thing about Thundurus was that, like I said, I'm a bit of a hater, and 2/3 of the Thundurus I used in last DPL were Defiant (I'm now a massive Defiant Thundurus hater), and I didn't want my opponents to get the idea that they could start building for me without the fear of Prankster Thunder Wave coming for them. Unfortunately I didn't Yellow Magic anyone but I still got plenty of value out of the Pokemon.

If you're looking at my regular season scout you might notice that I had 7/7 Conkeldurr usage and 6/7 Volcanion usage, so why talk about Pokemon I didn't even use for more than half of regular season? Well, it's because Flying types are important. Really important. Although I dislike Landorus-T, I certainly respect it and Earthquake, and you should too. This tier doesn't really have a large amount of Grass types and the ones that we do have are mostly neutral to Ground anyways. You need an Earthquake immunity on most teams, preferably one that can annoy LandoT, which ironically all of the genies that I brought do pretty well. In the modern metagame I'd also add LandoI to this, but it can be shutdown by just having special sponges with strong Ice moves.

Oingo Boingo the Clown and Big Steamy
+

Physical attacking glue and special attacking glue. As strong Pokemon with high natural Defense and high artificial Special Defense thanks to Assault Vest, Conkeldurr and Volcanion are two of the tier's best Pokemon when it comes to winning damage trades, right behind Kangaskhan. Winning damage trades is huge in XY in general but especially for a team like this. If you can successfully get Rocks up and have Kangaskhan pressure on the field, are you as the opponent really going to switch and take Rocks + Seismic Toss + Rocks on re-entry from the Pokemon you switched out? That's a lot of free damage. Volcanion hits Steels, checks rain, and in general just throws out strong attacks and flaunts its bulk at you for several turns. Conkeldurr is just plain obnoxious. You can't burn it until you confirm Iron Fist damage or you risk ruining your day, but if you fuck around and find out, that Iron Fist Drain Punch or Hammer Arm isn't a hit you're just gonna shrug off, and it's not exactly hard to Ice Punch a Flying type on an obvious switch. Knock Off is even an excellent utility move, removing Assault Vests and Rocky Helmets to create a path for your other attackers. Its low Speed even makes it so that just clicking TR on Kangaskhan Deoxys isn't exactly an autowin button. All in all these are mid-late game demons and don't take too much effort to position properly and will pretty much always generate positive value.

Metal Sonic and Shadow the Edgehog


These guys hit the field to force the issue. They put pressure on the opponents which often puts the ball in your court. Getting one read right in XY is so huge, there's no 50% berry to recover with, no tera to swing momentum, and no 12 fake outs per team to re-establish a losing position. Due to their speed and power, getting around them without giving up a Pokemon -- especially with Stealth Rock active -- is no easy feat. I think having these Pokemon is really important, the structure would probably be too weak to Diancie/Sylveon without them, and the strong priority options are another reason why this team can thrive on little to no speed control. Genesect's Extremespeed going before Thundurus's Thunder Wave and Talonflame's Brave Bird, but Bisharp having Defiant + Knock Off is strong into a lot of things, such as Aegislash, Cresselia, and the aforementioned Mega Sableye stall. Genesect has the added benefit of getting the flex slot. I used Psychic against laptops where it laughably did like 55% to Conkeldurr with a Special Attack boost so I can't say I really recommend that one too much, but Explosion, Zen Headbutt, Thunderbolt, Blaze Kick, Flamethrower, and Ice Beam are all fine choices.

????


I brought Goggles Jellicent w/ Taunt / WoW / Recover / Shadow Ball to week 1. It was fine. The theory was that it breaks up something like tvalks pretty well in the context of Thundurus being in range of a +1 CB Espeed and Sylveon being pummeled by Iron Head. I don't think I would really recommend Jellicent too highly but I also can't say I regret bringing it even if the stats will show its winrate to be losing.

And those are the only 10 Pokemon I used in XY regular season! Going into playoffs I felt quite tempted to switch things up a bit and deviate from Kangaskhan Deoxys, so instead I decided to use another potent offensive core that I think is pretty undervalued.



This is a hyper offense core centered around creating pressure with priority and utilizing three really broken abilities. Diancie keeps rocks off for Talonflame and is one of the few offensive Pokemon that actually has a positive Thundurus matchup, which is quite important when Thundurus is often the only Flying resist a standard Kang LTV team will employ. Bisharp punishes slow structures well since these teams often revolve around Intimidate and Fake Out to outposition offense, only for the Intimidate to work against my opponent and the Fake Outs to be blocked by Quick Guard from Talonflame. Talonflame takes out foes after Diancie's Diamond Storm bruises them up a bit, and notably pops Bisharp's number one enemy, Conkeldurr. This core is quite fragile, so you have to be very aware of the game state when running it, but overall the payoff is pretty huge and definitely a nice change of pace from my standard style. I added Landorus-I to have another Pokemon pressuring Volcanion, Conkeldurr, Gardevoir/Sylveon, and Aegislash, multiple of which I assumed ST was quite likely to end up running. Rounded it out with Thundurus + Conkeldurr as glue Pokemon to have some more speed control, a check in case I had to fight through Trick Room, and above all else, a chance to rob my opponent.

I'll be clear about one thing: this six as is absolutely crashes and burns if you end up fighting rain. There are definitely ways to make the rain matchup better and I don't think it's that hard to figure out what they are, but ST is someone who had a very rigid list of picks throughout the season, none of which were rain, and I had already had a pretty convincing win against rain earlier in the season. If you're gonna rip this team for future tours just keep this context in mind and don't get mad when you get 6-0d by Swampert.

Old Reliable


Sorry to disappoint if anyone was looking for some insane cookage for the finals (for that, look at the team jello brought to our game tbh), but I really wanted to keep things simple going into the game. Jello had only played XY for half the season which meant his scout was 4 weeks deep, with 4 pretty distinct teams, 2 of which were slightly modified samples. All that to say I don't think jello was similar to SingleThunder, since vs ST I could come up with an original flow that was good into all of their picks.

Interestingly, tvalks did have some pretty nice things going for me leading up to the game. I hadn't used Amoonguss or Sylveon all season, which I figured would throw a wrench into the Spindas' team choice. I also decided to use scarf PHYSICAL Landorus-T, which I haven't had a recorded game with in ages. I wanted a fast and powerful Earthquake to get the jump of Mega-Diancie and Genesect, which was pretty fortunate. At the end of the day, tvalks was a reliable team I could fall back on and it did its job in a tough finals game.

I'd also like to write some short blurbs about other archetypes in the tier that I didn't get to use this DPL.



I think rain is soooo scary in the tier and honestly not too hard to get good at using. Having rain in your scout is going to influence how your opponents pick teams into you (I wanted Amoonguss + Volcanion + Landorus-T for Jello to have two water resists and a way to intimidate swampert and talonflame). Rain had a pretty strong winrate this DPL with Mega Swampert going 3-1 and an additional win with laptops's Salamence rain.



I would place Gardevoir as the 5th best mega on paper but probably the 4th mega I would bring to a tournament game, I think its spot in the meta is quite solid. Between CM + 2x redirection and fat trick room builds, I think Garde has a lot of potential in the current metagame. I had a scrapped Gardevoir draft for finals but I won't get too much into that in case I choose to use it again :^)



Gengar is the mega I would rank at 4th but probably 5th in terms of bringing it to a tournament game. I think Gengar structures have got to evolve in the current metagame, for the longest time I felt like Gengar and Kangaskhan were practically interchangeable, but now I think Gengar structures need to lean harder into abusing Shadow Tag and punishing the common boards that [Mega LTV Conk X] will force. I don't think Deoxys-S has entirely killed Gengar, but any new Gengar team is going to have to be pretty heavily against Kang + Deos because that archetype won't be going anywhere for a while I feel.



Stall is really good. Huge props to SMB and anyone else involved in coming up with this build cuz I am actually a big fan; I had to take a super risky turn 1 with decent matchup in DPL to beat it the first time but without bisharp it just absolutely bodies kang + deos comps the majority of the time. Stall is slow and requires not getting haxxed + smart position management, but I think the matchup spread alone puts it way higher than some other archetypes. I think everyone should be thinking a little bit about the stall matchup when going forward.



I think if you're looking for a team to punish Kang LTV spammers the aforementioned stall is probably the safer option but I just have to shoutout tree for the great fullroom team again. Fullroom has been pretty uncommon for the majority of the time I've been playing XY, will be interesting to see if people decide to pick this team up in the following months.



I think Mence Goth is one of the worst archetypes in the tier :(

Gothitelle has a 0% winrate across the entire tour and Mence only has a 25% winrate. Are winrates everything? Absolutely not, but certainly winrates this drastic are highlighting some trends. I just don't think Goth is an active enough slot, and while Mence is great into a lot of the metagame, no high tier mega has as bad as matchup as Mence's Thundurus matchup for how common the Pokemon is. I would stay away from this archetype in the future. This isn't to say that Mence itself is unusable, but I'm not really a fan of the styles that were used this DPL and every time I tried to build it for myself I couldn't get anything I was happy about. Skill issue for me maybe...


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Thanks fellow XYers for the advice and games throughout the season: variationonatheme laptops SingleThunder sir jelloton Idyll and congrats to the spindas on the win!

 

[zee]

was asked to make formal VR noms

rises

2 - > 1

Right now Kangaskhan is the best choice for a mega. While that has arguably always been the case, the rise of the Deoxys and/or Genesect offense structure has improved the overall viability of Kangaskhan across the field, giving it answers to Gengar, Conkeldurr, and pokemon aiming to take a pot shot at it before it can move. Teams are basically limited to checking Kangaskhan by spamming rocky helmets, preserving health on Conkeldurr, or taking extreme measures like loading fullroom or stall (not to disrespect these archetypes, but Kang goodstuffs teams are just by far their best matchups imo) to gain a matchup advantage.

3 -> 2

CB Gene is simply amazing. Download preys on the metagame's average SpDef investment to give it attack boosts more often than not, and turns those CB + Download boosted attacks into murder buttons. Extremespeed has a decent shot to kill Thundurus after Stealth Rock, and will always kill after a Seismic Toss from Kangaskhan even with Sitrus Recovery. Even without clicking Espeed it has an excellent speed tier for the metagame and strong steel damage is important for fairies.

4 -> 3

Strong against Kang+Deo as well as Diancie which is a pretty uncommon combination of traits. Good variety of moves to customize to a specific team's needs, and I think offensive and spdef sets are both good.

UR -> 4

Like I mentioned above, I think stall is pretty legit in the meta atm as long as Kang goodstuffs is as dominant as it is. Arcanine and Chansey are currently unranked but I think it's probably fine to leave them that way unless someone else wants to nom them up.

+aforementioned Landorus-I UR -> 3

falls:

1 -> 2

genies are amazing and splashable but I think this also applies to conkeldurr and genesect. if you look at the teams used in DPL, they are built to play around the existence of thunder wave. people generally know not to get 6-0d by thundurus, and it's pretty easy to brick or just get off one attack and die. see my post above for my issues with landorus.

in general kang ltv gene conk were the top 6 mons in dpl and this is how i would tier them for tiers 1/2

2 -> 3

Kyurem-B was met with tier 3 allegations for a while but after a pretty quiet DPL I'm ready to say that I think this is where it deserves to go. The presence of rocks and conkeldurr are imo the two biggest things going for it. Still has a lot of great traits but those traits aren't tier 2 level. Gengar just feels hard to work with right now. Between Deoxys-S being an extremely common Kangaskhan partner, the rise of multiple Assault Vest checks to it, and just a general more aggressive metagame, I find myself asking why I would ever use Gengar as the mega on a goodstuffs squad. Dishonest shadow tag stuff is pretty lit though.

3 -> 4

Deoxys-Speed. The additional offense is not worth all the downsides that come with running this instead.

3 -> 4

Tyranitar preys on Gengar but Gengar has fallen off pretty hard. I guess there's some appeal for Deoxys until you realize three of his best buddies are Kangaskhan, Conkeldurr, and Genesect. Sand is viable but fringe viable. Tier 4.

 

[qsns]

Played a lot of xy over the past few weeks and watched dpl, tl;dr i think deoxys-s is probably the most important? metagame shift since the rise of mega gengar in terms of impacting the viable playstyles. Unless you have a very specific antilead into Kang + Deo-S, which is really tough, I don't think you're allowed to durdle much anymore. Most teams have to play assuming SR and a Spike up, meaning offensive play becomes much more viable.

Not going to make formal noms, as I think zee covered most of mine and my Lando-I in 2 might be a bit premature, but the mon is extraordinarily strong as we see in every DOU format ever and pairs quite well with MMence.

Quick things:
- Spdef Aegislash is a terror. I've moved away from max Spdef on every single mon but this is the exception. Holy hell you cannot kill this ever
- Modest Thundurus (w/ 24 SpA) could probably see some more use to OHKO Lando-I after Rocks. I think the SpDef is less useful atm since most teams have a Conkeldurr to check opposing Volcanion and Thundurus, and damage good.
- I have been Mega Diancie hater #1 for a while and I am changing my tune. Mon is incredible into Deo-S matchups and punishes the most common steel being CBG, especially with HP Fire.
- Rain good
- Gengar is on fraud watch and I'm probably ranking it far too high for its current usage/perceived viability
- Amoonguss is a fraud and IMO only justifies usage in redirecting for the CM fairies
- The stall team is T4 I just did not want to add the mons because I'm lazy

edit: formal nom for Mew -> 3

Has a million different sets, as shown by the Demon Mew brought by Gma, but can also just do support Mew things without Gengar constantly looming over it. Faster Fake Out than Kangaskhan can allow you to antilead Kang/Deo much more easily, and can get up Rocks, spread status, and use speed control. One of Fire/Ice/Psychic coverage on a speed stat of 100 can also do wonders for patching up team weaknesses.

 

[SingleThunder]

I lost my progress while writing these before, apologies.

Everything is ordered in all tiers.

I think you get to Mew in Tier 3 and start hitting some resistance on viability, but they're still good mons. I may be too hard on Mega Gengar, but it just isn't what it used to be. In general, my strategy was to more aggressively rank and then if people disagree it's easier for it to fall lower. The inverse seemed less helpful.

RISES:

2 --> 1
While the rise of faster offensive play has snuck its way around LTV's dominance, Kang's bulk and ability to trade for S-Toss damage is still huge and teams have the tools and comfortable options to play around the other Tier 1's currently and as I suggest in my own rankings. Kang's move options still leave room to work around new emergences, like Aegislash, as well. Although there are more Helmet users than last time, looking at Deo-Speed, Amoonguss, and occasionally Volcanion, Kang emerges in the positive for the trades. How a player handles Kang is a Tier 1 problem in the builder.

2 --> 1
A mon that I advocated for early, Conkeldurr's main purposes are to hit Kang and threaten chipping and chunking opposing mons. While it doesn't enjoy a -1 from Lando, its stats, typing, and typical Assault Vest item usually allow it to switch in and out, even with hazards, if needed. If not, its move pool, usually composed into sets including Drain Punch, Mach Punch, Knock Off, and/or Ice Punch and Wide Guard, allow it to hit most of the top two tiers' cast well. It fits on most teams and trades effectively, if not winning matchups outright if left unchecked.

3 --> 1
A large jump for the fossil, of a previous meta. The earlier rise of Deoxys-Speed, coupled with its turn one buddy Mega Kanga, encouraged slower play. Genesect's Choice Band set [U-Turn, Iron Head, Extreme Speed, & Explosion/Blaze Kick/Zen Headbutt/Special Move] plus a 'Download' boost instead threatens "extremely" (lol) hard hits to most of the tier, with move options to hit problem typal areas. A -1, especially considering the ability boost, is less effective than for other physical attackers. While its speed range allows it to fall short at times, E-Speed picks up the slack, especially helpful for prio outspeeding Thundy's.

4 --> 3
Primarily a support machine, utilizing Will-O-Wisp, Stealth Rocks, Tailwind, Fake Out, Snarl, and Ice Beam/Psychic to name a few prime options, Mew assists team compositions that need help mitigating special damage and burning a Genesect, Lando, or other target. Mew belongs in Tier 3 currently because of meta developments, rather than outright sitting comfortably. It is a useless slot where it cannot keep pace or its set does nothing, re: versus Mega Diancie... and Bug, Dark, and Ghost type attacks are prevalent.

UR --> 3
An emergence summoned by Zee's play, Lando-without-hearing-the-sweet-sound-of-a-flute is faster than most of the meta and still hits hard, usually with a Life Orb'd Earth Power, Psychic/Sludge Bomb, or a Hidden Power. It also could leave room to set up with a Substitute or go turbo with a Choice Scarf. Most of the meta is Ground weak, and Lando is able to live one hit to usually hit back just as hard if not harder. While its honesty in attacking means piloting it isn't a clicking game, its output is something builders need to keep in mind.

4 --> 3
The meta really appreciates more Intimidators now, looking at Gene, Conk, Lando, Diancie post-mega, and Mega Salamence (also an Intimidator at times). A very fast Snarl machine with pivot and Fire + Ice options is well appreciated, but noting that I've put it at the bottom of Tier 3. It still sits on the field and does nothing at times, and some teams just don't care about Mane's mitigation efforts.

3 --> 2
The literal ability to both deny hazards and stat drops (although a Schrodinger's Cat situation), strong dual attacking stats and move options, and 350 speed makes Mega Diancie a rising potent threat. Defense boosts from Diamond Storm aid this Pokemon in becoming a field stay-in and its aforementioned pro's leave it open to becoming a late game finisher. Mega Diancie matches decently against Tier 1 propositions and currents and very well into other Tier 2's bar Aegislash.

4 --> 2
Aegislash is sorely needed in this meta for its defensive capability, and as others have pointed and demonstrated in battles bar TalkingTree cooking in the builder, its ability to wall Kang. Access to Toxic, Wide Guard, and strong STAB attacks make it a threat versus the strong DeoS-Kang, emergent Mega Diancie, as well as Tier 3 options. While it previously, like a decade ago, was good for subbing and attacking, Aegislash enjoys using its defensive typing and skills to laugh at new and old offensive threats.


DROPS:

1 --> 2
Thundy usually liked pairing into Volcanion and Lando-T as part of the LTV triumpvirate, but the meta has shifted away from handling these three as a trio problem, resorting to Conk, Gene, and more consistent rock setter Deo-S to name a couple influences. While it still uses Thunder Wave and attacks well enough, it's influence on the gamestate is less dominant than Tier 1 describes or as it plays out in games. Its move options as a support Pokemon, and ability to flex into a fast offensive threat for teams needs (not forgetting Defiant either), means Thundurus still fits into Tier 2 well. It also can side-status your own Conkeldurr for the Guts boost, but if you're me, you get para'd three turns in a row...

1 --> 2
Same issue as above re: the LTV trio. However, Volcanion fares better than Thundurus here. The usual Assault Vest set allows Volcanion to face offensive special attackers very well. Yet, the current meta is reliant on hazards, physical attacks, and Seismic Toss to deal damage, making Volcanion's (arguably) best set less potent in composition and matchup. While still a very good Pokemon, Volcanion just isn't dominant enough to be Tier 1.

2 --> 3
I tried using this Pokemon in DPL and just wasn't impressed. Again, the meta has shifted from LTV and genies and instead uses hazards, and strong Fighting, Steel, and Rock type moves (sometimes Fairy spammers too), which Kyube does not enjoy. While there are Scarf sets, Kyube is also too slow to be an attacker and its Assault Vest set, like Volcanion suffers from, just isn't as applicable. Demoted!

2 --> 3
Poor Gengar. A previous omnipresent threat is now outdone by Pokemon that are either faster than it or bulky enough to live well to revenge. Trapping is still Real, but the meta playstyles shut it down or allow for pivots out. I'm not scared of getting trapped versus Gengar, it's often that Gengar is the one scared instead. Someone else can probably elaborate on the interactions better than I can.

 

[KyleCole]

If you're seeing this one first, I got rank 1 in the gen 6, 7, and 8 dou ladders at the same time and now I want to collect the likes for my efforts.

https://pokepast.es/90b25f8796839ba0

Ole reliable. I really wouldn't ladder with anything else in gen 6 and I'm pretty sure the person in rank 2 was using the exact same 6. I wanted to give Double-Edge a go on Adamant Kangaskhan and it rules. Imagine just getting your milotic deleted. People run Stoss now but I think that's a mistake on squads like this one, where you really want the fighting move for other Kangakshan and Bisharp. Hidden Power grass volcanion was a newer option for me as well that I got some mileage out of. It's really tough to come up with something new for a team that has been used hundreds of times since 2015, but I was able to get value from a couple of less popular choices so give 'em a try...although I will admit this ladder was by a mile the least competitive of the three oldgens.
Apparently I don't have any public replays for this team so you're getting all of the private ones...
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen6doublesou-2109739426?p2
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen6doublesou-2109746751?p2
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen6doublesou-2109771268?p2
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen6doublesou-2109777987?p2
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen6doublesou-2109949455
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen6doublesou-2110971142?p2

Gen 7 Post
Gen 8 Post + screenshots/proof of peaks

 

[Idyll]

[THREAD UPDATES]

[VIABILITY RANKINGS]

The XY DOU VR is getting another update! This vote covers developments throughout DPL and the recent Classic. This vote was done with myself, Actuarily, laptops, SingleThunder. SMB, Yuichi, and zee

Rises
Mega Kangaskhan: 2 -> 1
Mega Diancie: 3 -> 2
Genesect: 3 -> 2
Aegislash: 4 -> 3
Landorus-I: UR -> 3
Mega Sableye: UR -> 4


Falls
Thundurus: 1 -> 2
Kyurem-B: 2 -> 3
Deoxys-A: 3 -> 4
Tyranitar: 3 -> 4

Voting Sheet

XY Cup is just around the corner; good luck to everyone participating!

 

[Sunrose]

I'm out of the XY DOU Swiss Tour so I'll post the teams I've had success with!



I went 5-1 with this team and it does a good job into the LTV team structures thanks to Gastros and Raichu's abilities. Bisharp and Aegislash can give this team some trouble, but I think it is manageable. Well actually Bisharp looks brutal into this team but fortunately I didn't have to face one haha.
Here are all the replays that i used the team with:

VS LogIce: [Gen 6] Doubles OU: Sunrose vs. LogIce - Replays - Pokémon Showdown! (pokemonshowdown.com) (W)
Vs RL: [Gen 6] Doubles OU: RL vs. Sunrose - Replays - Pokémon Showdown! (pokemonshowdown.com) (W)
Vs Charmdi: [Gen 6] Doubles OU: Charmdi vs. Sunrose - Replays - Pokémon Showdown! (pokemonshowdown.com) (W)
Vs Charmdi: [Gen 6] Doubles OU: Charmdi vs. Sunrose - Replays - Pokémon Showdown! (pokemonshowdown.com) (W)
Vs Trout in Space: [Gen 6] Doubles OU: Sunrose vs. Troutinspace - Replays - Pokémon Showdown! (pokemonshowdown.com) (W)
Vs qsns: [Gen 6] Doubles OU: qsns vs. Sunrose - Replays - Pokémon Showdown! (pokemonshowdown.com) (L)



I remember I lost to LogIce in rd 1 of xy swiss and he brought a mega diancie team vs me in g3 and i was thinking how powerful the team is. I asked them if they could pass the paste but they couldn't because zee built the team so I made my own version. It went through a bunch of changes throughout the tour, but this is the version I ended up with and liked the most.
Quickguard on keld is stop opposing fake out, twaves/taunt from thundy's, bb from talon, espeed from gene, etc. Av metagross is there to check landos since i get to live 1 ep or eq and kill back with ice punch. Meteor Mash and Bullet Punch is to kill all the diancie's that have been taking over and also for sylv. Rain is probably the hardest matchup so you have to set up twind with talon and use bb on ludicolo since that mon threatens everything. Here are some replays of the team in action:

Vs Trout In Space: [Gen 6] Doubles OU: Troutinspace vs. Sunrose - Replays - Pokémon Showdown! (pokemonshowdown.com)
Vs AlRedzone: [Gen 6] Doubles OU: AIRedzone vs. Sunrose - Replays - Pokémon Showdown! (pokemonshowdown.com)
Roomtour Final vs rain matchup: Replays - Pokémon Showdown! (pokemonshowdown.com) (I don't know who I was playing but they felt like a strong player to me)

Thank you to everyone for all the test games and to everyone I played in the tournament! It was a blast playing XY again!

 

[eragon]

2024 ORASPL TEAM DUMP (7-0) + Metagame Analysis​

I need to stop slacking on this so here's a team dump + my thoughts on the metagame after ORASPL. No video for now cuz busy but maybe sometime soon (will update if I do).

Intro/Disclaimers​

At the beginning of this year, I decided I wanted to get more into the oldgens side of things after playing way too many games in current gen last year. Wasn't sure how this tour would go after a few disappointed runs in sm/sspl that were characterized by a lack of motivation and team reusal. Following this, I knew that if I wanted to perform well in these oldgens I needed to not let myself be constrained by other people's thoughts on said metagames and instead approach things from a completely fresh mindset and form my own opinions.

Fortunately, I was lucky to have a goated support in Smudge and a goated manager in RufflesPro who were both completely fine with me testing and using whack stuff which was extremely appreciated. Consequently, I'm pretty sure I have developed a pretty significantly different view of XY as a tier as compared to most of the XY playerbase, so get ready for some (probably) out there takes.

Teams​

First, I'll go over the teams that I used in ORASPL this year. I didn't do a particularly heavy amount of scouting and as such the stuff I brought was primarily influenced by whatever I was vibing with that week. I also really didn't want to reuse mega evolutions, so I across the 7 weeks of the regular season I brought 7 different megas, leading to a pretty hilarious self scout by the end (1 thundurus, 0 Conkeldurr, 1 Genesect):

Week 1 vs Xrn

.

Going into the tour, I was actually really excited to use Mega Gengar since I think it's a really cool mon and it's not really legal anywhere else. I'm a big lando-i believer across all DOU formats and pairing it with icy wind support seemed pretty cool, even in the abscene of dynamic speed. Being very new to the tier at the time, I really wanted fake out and speed control and Mienshao seemed like a really cool option for helping with Kang while Skymin was added towards the very end as an offensive tailwind setter that could combo nicely with some of the other special attackers. Volcanion is just volcanion and I was pretty concerned about the Deo-S stuff so Aegislash seemed like a pretty great choice to help with it (more on this guy later). Team was really fun to play (albeit a little bit jank) and a test game with Idyll moments before the match really helped prepare to face a pretty scary Bisharp matchup.

Week 2 vs Singlethunder

.

This week, I did notice a lot standardish LTV cores from Singlethunder and Goth + Diancie spoke to me in the builder. With some help from zee, I was able to pretty quickly build out a draft and from there it functioned very well. I opted to make Diancie very offensive (basically max attack), so I could kill Volcanion with helping hand Diamond Storm. Scrafty seemed like another fun choice to help this week's team into Kang and I kinda just slapped on goodstuffs from there-- Lando had performed really well in week 1 + test games so I was very comfortable bringing it again. Definitely a pretty cool composition that I probably would've messed around with some more if my team had made playoffs- Diancie really punishes a lot of common mons so pairing it with trapping is really helpful to make sure it actually takes the knockouts it's supposed to

Week 3 vs Idyll

power up punch > seismic toss

Really wanted to use PUP Kang at some point this tour cuz Stoss is super unimpressive to me in all formats (natdex included) and Kang's ability is just so absurdly broken in XY. Defiant thund was one of my favorite sets that I'd seen prior to this tour and it seemed like a natural fit here. Aegi once again seemed broken to cover the popular stuff and Amoonguss felt necessary to allow Kang to actually do stuff. Talonflame was maybe the most interesting part of this team, I really felt I wanted quick guard in addition to the benefits of having a fire + funny brave bird, so I made it lorb and had a lot of fun piloting it. This team didn't really feel like a Lando-I team and so Lando T seemed like a better fit. Went back and forth on the set a bunch but I ended up going with CB for some extra damage output and this team was kinda just clicked for itself. The actual game was a little bit of a mess and I had some positive rng but the team was definitely one of my favorites of the tour.

Week 4 vs Laptops

very serious gameplay

At this point, it felt like the right time to use Mega mence so I build it out with some of my favorite broken stuff (Scafty, Lando I, Aegi). Landorus felt pretty necessary to handle steels like Aegi, whereas Scrafty's compression just felt like the best way to consistently have room to position Mence. This was a decent enough team but unfortunately I didn't really get to utilize its full potential because the game didn't really matter too much this week and as such Laptops brought mega sceptile. By this point, I was conscious of the fact that my previous teams had pretty questionable matchups into the rain 6, but I found in testing that just having Amoonguss was enough for me to at least have some lines.

Week 5 vs Zee

I defend the immoral use of Milotic (real?)

Following the use of many of the more traditionally strong megas, Tyranitar stood out to me as another solid option I could use. Messing around with reactivating sand stream is genuinely really really powerful in this metagame and with sand up this thing just has absurd stats and is almost impossible to really ohko. Rock damage is also just really powerful in this metagame which makes dd+rock slide very threatening into a lot of the common backbones of teams. However, I had a lando t issue- most of the mons on the team couldn't even really pressure it. Eventually, I bit the bullet and looked for some intimidate punishment. Of the options available, Milotic seemed like the best one due to having a useful typing and being able to really troll things by spamming coil + hypnosis (in the worst possible scenario). Once again, funny options like Aegislah and Lando I really helped hold the team down and amoonguss is just far and away the best redirector in the game, even pairing fairly well with Ttar. Milotic just got to pull a funny in the game, which was important cuz with the previous version I'm pretty sure I would've just straight up lost. The mon is kinda cringe but it's probably the single strongest punish for Lando-T in the format (Defiant Thund/Bisharp are good too but neither has the same staying power like Milotic does).

Week 6 vs Tenzai

how I stole this from vgc 18 and made it work here

By now, I really in the swing of this metagame and was just basically throwing fun ideas in the teambuilder and building them out. In the formats with megas, I generally take a lot of inspiration from VGC 2018 simply because it's the VGC format that has the most resources available online since VGC was smaller in 2015 and 2014/2016/2019 are not really remotely comparable to a DOU power level. In particular, this week I took a lot of inspiration from the following team:

From my experience playing a LOT of VGC 18 in VGC Classics this year, it's hard to really convey just how scary this team is into a lot of the common stuff in that format, Blaziken + Bisharp just genuinely farms things and has so much offensive pressure that can't really be slowed down. Obviously there are huge differences across formats but Bisharp is an actual guy in XY anyways so the idea seemed promising. From some testing, I figured out that Fini was like. really really integral. to the team so I was just like fuck it and split it into two mons (Sylveon/Keldeo). Addtionally, there were a lot of situations where Blaziken racked up speed boosts but then would just get forced out so I added baton pass- this was a really excellent way to help cover for Sylveon's speed issues and allow it contribute in far more games while also giving Blaziken a pivot move. Zapdos' typing was just really valuable with the mons I had but didn't really want to run Thund cuz I was very very unimpressed with that mon outside of Defiant sets + I specifically wanted tailwind + roost. I returned to CB Lando-T as it just seemed like a better fit than the original set, which had scarf (scarf Lando-T just gets a lot more value in gen 7 than 6 I feel, I'm not really a fan of it here). Finally, Quick Guard Keldeo added a much appreciated water typing to the team and a way to help the choiced mons keep attacking in the face of fake out. I was actually really impressed with Keldeo after this week and was kinda kicking myself for not exploring it sooner.

Week 7 vs Akaru

one of the funniest ways I've ever built a team

Going into the final week of the season, my team had already basically been eliminated but I wanted to keep tryharding for the undefeated season+ had a bunch of ideas I still wanted to try. CM cress was something I'd thought about a few times earlier in the season but hadn't really explored. One night, Schister and I were bored so we started looking through some of the old worlds teams from various formats when we saw this:

I hadn't really thought about Zard-X much at all in this format. It's a mon I'm personally really high on in metagames like Natdex, where even the most marginally invested flare blitz ohko's like half the top mons but I'd kinda just assumed the strength of some of the other megas would make it very difficult to run in XY. Curious, I scoured the internet looking for the paste of the team but couldn't find it. I was only really interested in like the Zard + Lando-T sets and was pretty sure the Zard was just wisp but wasn't sure. Finally, I came across a vod of the event and confirmed the Zard was, in fact, wisp + roost. This seemed like an ideal pairing for cm Cress so I got to work in the teambuilder. Lando-T still made a lot of sense, as I particularly wanted rocks here. Amoonguss once again just made sense next to the setup mon and Keldeo seemed like a really excellent offensive mon to have here. Aegislash is just broken and gave me an out into the Deo-S + Kang stuff that particularly concerned me running a mon initially 4x weak to stealth rock. The team really just came together and I was really happy with it. I decided to give the Zard another attack cuz being walled by Volcanion didn't seem fun. Outrage is just funny and hits a lot of stuff really hard but the moveslot could still be protect or something like dragon claw/thunder punch. I ended up queueing into the stall 6 and Zard + Cress on preview just looked like it 6-0d (it did).

Bonus Team (about the same level as the teams I ended up bringing but just didn't get the chance)

.

an alternate take on rain featuring metagross. If I used rain I wasn't about to use the standard 6 cuz that wouldn't be fun so I threw this together and was pretty happy with how it turned out. I'm pretty sure schister had some success with it in the xy swiss or whatever it was but I just didn't have the opportunity to really use it. Metagross is similar to Tyranitar in that it just stat checks things. There are very good reasons for why it's signficantly worse than in gen 7 (volcanion tier + no stomping tantrum + mega speed change delay) but the mon is still very fundamentally strong. Thund-T seemed like the best way to eliminate volcanion for rain.

My Thoughts on XY rn​

I'm just going to go tier by tier since I'm well aware my opinions are little out there but hear me out.

Tier 1

Notes

Unsurprisingly Volcanion is simply the best pokemon in the tier. Compressing water/fire into one slot is just infinitely valuable and everyone knows it. Unironically pretty broken and if I didn't like this metagame as much as I do I'd prob want to ban it, it's just like a gen 7 powerlevel mon in a gen 6 metagame (if that even makes sense).

Recent metagame trends have been EXTREMELY favorable to this mon and it's so unbelievably helpful into Kang stuff, Diancie stuff, and many of the mons in this tier simply struggle heavily to remove a mon with this typing + its defensive stats. I used this on a majority (5/7) of my teams and while I know there were a lot of different factors as to why I succeeded in this tour, i think spamming Aegi was one of the most signficant reasons. I noticed very early on that this mon just felt absurd in the games I was playing- it sticks around the whole game and I had numerous test games where I was able to win with whatever team I was testing simply because Aegi pulled a funny and 1v3d an endgame I had no business winning. Smudge and I just didn't really see much of a way to punish this mon and Kang + Deo S stuff was up a lot coming into the tour (and will still definitely be a prominent teambuilding concern going forward) so I was kinda just like "I'm gonna just bring this every week". I didn't bring it to literally every week mostly because I had a couple of teams that really wanted another steel but the point stands.

Volcanion/Aegi Tier 1 might seem a little whack and there's some other mons that are close to this level of splashability but I don't think they're quite on the level of these two.

Tier 2

Notes

This mon is definitely the best mega, even if I personally heavily dislike Stoss as a set- it's just all around the best fake out clicker and one of the best progress makers. Not too much to say here besides why I didn't include it in tier 1: I simply feel that placing a mega in tier 1 in this current metagame wouldn't really make sense- Kang is the best one but Diancie is close behind it and many of the other Megas are still good but just not as individually splashable. Together, however, the Tier 3/4 megas are useful in enough situations for them to really eat into the situations where I'd use Kang- to the point where I think tier 2 is a better fit for it.

/ These guys are just incredible and I will go as far as to say I think you should have one of them on all of your teams. Landorus-I is just so good right now at pressuring both of the mons I put into tier 1 + just being maybe the best wallbreaker that's not a mega. Lando-T still does Lando-T things but I actually used Lando-I slightly more just because I think it's generally still better offensively (CB Lando-T does have some advantages over Lando-I, but not on most teams imo). Lando-T's role compression is still excellent and is a better supporting piece but not all teams need that. Both of these mons I think could be tier 1 in the absence of the other but they cannibalize each other's usage and as such I don't think either one belongs in tier 1, so they're kinda tier 2 with an asterisk.

The second best mega. This feels like THE mega diancie format, it just gets so much value into the many rock weaks and it's probably the best fairy type as well. You have to pretty careful with your calcs when playing with this mon because it often isn't too difficult for opponents to remove but if an opposing team gets chipped enough it very quickly becomes diancie fodder.

I used this guy a lot and redirection is really really valuable in this metagame. There are still a lot of ways to handle it and you have to be careful of goggles but I think it always gets a lot of value. One of the best mons into rain and clicking giga drain of all things is really nice into mons like gastro or diancie.

This mon is also really incredible. I only used it once cuz carried by Aegislash but this is still absolutely tier 2, large variety of sets + espeed is just a really powerful move in this format.

I really don't like the supportive sets but they still have their place. What's really keeping this in Tier 2 for me is the defiant set. It gets a lot of mileage into top mons and sky drop is a broken move. Just like Aegi, I definitely underused it but it's still something I respect a lot in the teambuilder.

Tier 3

notes

Goated mon. Brave bird hits like 80% of the tier for unreasonable amounts of damage. Only reason it's not tier 0 is you knock yourself out. The only fire type other than Volcanion I have above tier 5 and tbh it's like half a fire type. Flare blitz stuff is a bonus that just happens to let you remove some annoying stuff (ferro) more consistently. Also the best tailwind clicker- tailwind's not super strong in this format but it still can help some more offensive teams get an advantage.

Unironically one of the scariest mons to prepare for next to Kang. Insane utility compression etc etc. Others have made the case for Deo-S being a staple of this format in this thread several times so I won't go on here, but what everyone else has said still applies

/ The next tier of megas. Shadow Tag and Prime aerilate are extremely powerful but metagame conditions are not ideal for both of these mons. They're still mons that are absolutely important teambuilding threats to consider or you will just get owned. Gengar doesn't appreciate the entire metagame being optimized over to handle it (over a period of several years by this point) whereas Mence doesn't have quite as big an issue but it doesn't really like Aegi stuff and LTV can be a little annoying for it (but if you cover for these admittedly sizeable considerations the mon performs very well).

/ The best fairy types besides Diancie and they both lean a little more heavily into fairy type damage. I consider them about the same level because Gardevoir is stronger but is obviously more commital due to taking up a mega slot. The fairy type is really excellent into just about everything that's not tier 1 but both mons struggle a bit to break through those guys + are susceptible to taking large amounts of chip from random physical moves even when they're resisted.

Strong mon with defiant, best knock off clicker but has serious frailty issues. Pairs very well with just about anything that doesn't like Lando-T, however.

The only other water type besides Volcanion but it deals better with Kang and the Landos which is much appreciated. Quick Guard is excellent in this format imo due to espeed being so threatening + a few solid fake out mons. I'm pretty high on this just due to it's matchups right now, if stuff like Thund or Mence were better I'd be lower on it but those guys are kinda down rn for unrelated reasons.

Didn't use this but I think it's really threatening if you can build effectively around it. However, it doesn't like the top tiers very much and doesn't have its mega form's ability to compensate for that with high speed. TR feels a little tricky to pilot in this metagame but Diancie does get excellent mileage once it's set up and is probably the best tr clicker. Good mon but Aegislash/Lando I/Volcanion jail.

/ I didn't use Conkeldurr a single time. I just don't like the ways it's run and while it does generally trade very well, I think some of the mons that handle it better are starting to see more use + it has to run so much spdef investment to get those trades that its damage output feels really underwhelming. Scrafty has more compression and while it has its issues I do really like what it has to offer as a non-Kang fake out user + fighting type. I think realistically they're around the same power level for me but I had several teams that really wanted Scrafty and I had 0 teams that really wanted Conk whereas everyone else seems to be really high on Conk.

Tier 4

notes

Putting the rain guys here. Rain is definitely a scary playstyle but it's pretty one-dimensional imo and that holds it back. Definitely an archetype with a strong niche but the linearity of the way it's played makes it easier to prepare for.

Stats. Stealth Rock weakness. I don't think this mon likes the current metagame at all but clicking ice beam is still strong ig. if it had freeze dry it would completely own rain and have more of a niche but it doesn't get that until gen 8 so L.

Shadow tag is obviously really strong and goth can do some really fun and versatile things with it but I don't think the mon itself is good enough to warrant widespread usage. It's pretty powerful into the right scout tho.

threatening mon that scared me a few times but it's very manageable and has some issues with the higher tiered mons, T4 seems correct

As mentioned earlier I think this mons ability to punish Lando-T is pretty unrivaled but taunt can really ruin it. Fortunately I think support thund is just not that great into stuff so Milotic can definitely see some usage. Might also be able to click icy wind pretty well but haven't tested it.

Honestly pretty surprised this mon isn't used more. Tyranitar is also around and that does see some usage but the stats you get with the mega are just so unbelievable and make it a lot easier for the Tyranitar itself to act as a win condition. Sand itself is okish but Ttar by itself makes great use of it and being able to Mega Evolve and reactivate the sand helps you so much into stuff like rain. I had a lot of fun using and building this mon and I encourage others to do the same. Lando-T matchup is a little annoying but there are many ways to cover that.

I really think this mon has a lot of potential but never got around to building. You have to be really careful of stealth rock or you essentially don't have a mega which can be really frustrating. Removal is also not super great in this gen so it's tricky but I think Zardy can make it work simply due to its potentially overwhelming offensive pressure. However, it also really doesn't like Diancie much and I think Diancie is really good rn. Definitely tough but I think it should be workable. There's a few chlorophyll mons like venusaur that could probably see some use with on the right team too.

Unrivaled in terms of damage output but often just takes one ko and dies. It's still scary and demands a lot of attention in game but it's not too difficult to position around. Espeed is also nice on it but I don't think good teams really struggle with Deo-A much at all.

I'm not too much of a fan of this mon generally but it does have a some great matchups in the higher tiers. However, it's very easy to wear down and so it often struggles to get much value outside of being a little annoying for a few turns in my experience. Definitely a tier 4 pokemon, any lower would be disrespectful but you have to have a pretty specific reason to use it.

utility is nice but I really just didn't like how it felt the few times I tried it. It's definitely real but often times there's stronger mons that have the specific compression you want.

Didn't see much of this guy at all but I'm sure it's a function TR guy next to maybe stuff like Diancie. I probably need to explore some more at some point but 4 seems about right for it based on the high power level of XY in general.

Tier 5

Notes

Most of these mons are really at the fringe of viability, sand guys are down here because I think they're the slightest bit usable but I don't really think they're that great. A few fringe fires are down here and they can get some stuff done but they require teams that are built around them. Beat up whims/terrakion stuff is here too, scary but pretty much every team has a way to handle it.
Interesting mon but I think it has a lot of questionable matchups. If you can support it with like half your team the cm set is really powerful imo but the team has to revolve almost entirely around it. It could also maybe get some tr value but I think there are generally better TR setters.

:Megagross-Mega: Does this belong here? I think it's pretty usable just due to the stats but I don't feel strongly about it.

 

[variationonatheme]

I've had some thoughts percolating on the current XY meta for a while. The oldgen circuits usage stats recently posted by Smudge have helped me to clarify those.

With the XY DOU ladder up for a couple years now, I've been able to get some games in. However, after getting decent enough that I was able to get to finals in XY cup last year (with a lot of luck), I have struggled to progress since then. The meta feels incredibly centralized, with each component of LTV used on over half of competitive teams and Kang emerging as the top Mega. Throw in a Band Gene, DeoS, Amoonguss and/or a Sylveon and you have a very good team. That is the most successful combo I have seen on the ladder, bar none, repeated in several slightly different forms. However, when I'd play other decent players with similar teams, it felt like we were basically flipping a coin, and skill levels were a relatively small factor in the outcome of the match. Play seemed overly predictable.

My sense was that a central issue with the current XY DOU was lack of good speed control, other than TWave. As i got some exposure to BW, I even started liking it a bit better than XY, because I at least felt like it had a developed Trick Room game, which was somewhat of an antidote/counterplay to omnipresent parahax.

Looking at the oldgen circuit move usage largely confirmed my suspicions. I calculated the following re: total primary speed control moves usage in the BW, XY and SM circuits, respectively:

BW
Tailwind uses: 6
Trick Room uses: 69
Thunder Wave uses: 89

XY
Tailwind uses: 31
Trick Room uses: 34
Thunder Wave uses: 94

SM
Tailwind uses: 159
Trick Room uses: 70
Thunder Wave uses: 1
(SS speed control stats were pretty similar to SM, so I won't list them separately)

SM has highly developed Tailwind and Trick Room games. BW has a highly developed Trick Room game with almost nonexistent Tailwind. XY, in contrast, has both relatively undeveloped Tailwind and Trick Room games. Thunder Wave is clearly the primary speed control method in both BW and XY, but at least it is offset somewhat by the robust Trick Room available in BW. Meanwhile, the nerf to TWave and the presence of Fini on around 40% of teams were enough to almost completely eradicate the move in the SM meta.

Anyway, getting to the point (if there even is one), I believe XY could be a lot more interesting and fun if we banned TWave (or possibly just started with the primary priority abuser of said move, Thundy). Tailwind would take off and we'd get much more strategy in setting speed control, rather than just clicking TWave and praying for full para. A pokemon, like Thundy, doesn't have to be without counterplay or used more than any others to have a big effect on the meta, whether positive or negative (just ask SM Fini).

The other thing I believe the meta could do without is the queen herself, Mega K. The bring your kid to work ability is just busted. The mon is banned in SM, which undeniably has power creep over XY (think Kart and Z crystals), but it is somehow fine in XY? Mega Metagross is the top mega in SM (with some apparently thinking it should be suspected even now), but has minimal usage in XY and Mega K, its de facto replacement there, is fine? Both of Mega K's sets (stoss and pup) are busted in their own way. Critically, stoss ignores intimidates and the effects of burn and allows you to 2hko almost anything not a ghost, regardless of type or defensive stats (sorry Diancie). Meanwhile, stoss Mega K can fully invest in speed and hp, making it incredibly bulky and fast with only one weakness, and always ready to switch in with stab, double hit Fake Out. Even if Mega K appears on a minority of teams, it is such a menace that the XY meta has significantly contorted itself to face it, with rocky helmet frequently employed and stuff like Aegislash, Conk, and scarfdorus seeing a lot more usage than one might expect otherwise.

Anyway, I don't actually expect anything radical like suspecting TWave or Mega K could happen for XY at this stage, but who knows. Last night, I talked to a relatively new XY DOU player who (after getting to #2 on the ladder) said he recently gave up and went back to singles, largely because of frustration with parahax.

Well, those are some thoughts I had. The most actionable observation I have made may be that Trick Room, particularly BW style semiroom, seems pretty underutilized in XY. I think there is room for some development there. Also, I believe the recent sell off in Mega Gengar stock (used less than 1/3 as much as Kang according to recent stats) is probably overdone now.

 

[zee]

I dislike Thundurus. It's the worst element of this tier/gen and always has been, hell even since I was a 13 year old kid playing VGC in 2015. I have had some upsetting games regarding twave spam this year. To be honest I've never really given thought to the idea that XY Twave could be banworthy. I think it would be a convenience for sure, but there's a line in the sand you need to draw at some point with accepting RNG in the game I guess.

I think some of the main reasons that the other speed control avenues don't see a lot of play in the tier compared to other gens are as follows: even though XY is a bit faster in terms of speed tiers than BW, there's nothing quite as strong as BW Iron Fist Conk or a well positioned Heatran. Take Mega Mawile for instance, it's just always going to struggle breaking Volcanion, Landorus, Aegislash etc. before TR runs out. Amoonguss has unrestricted Spore in this gen, and while you can run Safety Goggles on your nonmegas, you do so at a significant opportunity cost to items that increase your general survivability or power level.

On the opposite end, Tailwind can often be seen as not a lot of benefit, as CB Genesect's Extreme Speed, Kangaskhan's Fake Out/Sucker Punch, Talonflame Brave Bird, Bisharp Sucker Punch, Conkeldurr Mach Punch, etc, is just a lot of priority to potential be contending with, let alone the aforementioned Prankster Thunder Wave. It's more of a factor here than the limit on Trick Room usage but I think it's far from the only thing holding the alternate speed control methods back.

However...

it would be really nice to not get twaved out of games lol! I guess it'd be worth having a serious conversation about. We can probably fit a no twave tour before DPL or something too since it seems like we're pushing that back a bit next year.

I think it's a bit interesting because some of the anti twave QoL changes you get from BW include electric types being immune to paralysis (oh boy! like my own thund!?) and mega diancie (conveniently 1 speed slower than turbo thund and primed for flash cannoning if the thund player really feels like it). But you'd probably see some of the counter arguments you do in gens like BW and DPP. Scarfers will be too broken, Kingdra, etc. etc. Curious what other thoughts are

kang rant

okay since I already managed to write an essay on Thundurus I'm gonna shove my Kangaskhan opinion to the side lol. Yeah Kang is entirely meta warping but I think it's a much more of a healthy way I guess? If Rocky Helmet users, Scarf Lando-T, and Aegislash were Pokemon that were used primarily to check Kangaskhan than I think it'd be different, but like we can all agree these have actual applications in the metagame in addition to Kangaskhan even if they may be the primary motivation.

the argument around Kang to me seems more of "this thing is a limiting factor on the metagame" where as thund is a bit more "this thing is a limiting factor on the metagame and has/because of its uncompetitive element". both are kinda lame but i think especially in an oldgen there's just gotta be a higher ceiling for what gets considered problematic

(realizing after typing all this that maybe the tiering convention would be more appropriate to single out thund vs twave in general but I imagine most people reading this kinda view them interchangably)

 

[Amaranth]

I think XY is defined by how centralized it is; that's not a good or a bad thing, it's a preference thing. MKang and MGar are both DUbers in SM because you are too stretched in the builder trying to cover for a whole lot of new threats; in XY you don't have too much else to worry about, so you can warp your team around those big threats without exposing yourself to autoloss MUs against other stuff. Dynamic speed also plays a part with Gengar it has to be mentioned, but I do think the greater amount of threats in SM is the primary reason.
For better or worse, I think at this point this is just part of the tier identity. I can definitely see the theoretical argument for bringing down the few centralizing forces (chiefly MKang and MGar, maybe Thundurus after that) to allow for more diversity, but I think the time for that sort of ideological decision was probably ~10 years ago. Now it's hard to make the case for anything being too centralizing - the metagame is clearly competitive and has been for a long time, so nothing needs to happen on the basis of centralization. LTV is high presence, but it's not like there isn't a lot of space for new things to pop up - we had a Deoxys-S arc, a Bisharp arc, Terrakions, Conkeldurrs etc over the last couple years.

I have no strong opinion on TWave, I can see how it's significantly more problematic than in BW (due to lower viability of TR overall, and maybe also some stuff like Thund-T being much better in BW than in XY), but I don't know if that's enough to move me. I do think that if Thundurus goes it will not be easy to keep this centralized balance. Your magic wand to shut down the centralizing fast threats (Kang/Gar) is gone, and I don't know if they can still be kept in check then. But that's not how you're supposed to go about tiering regardless - if we decide TWave is introducing too much RNG we cut it, and we'll handle the rest afterwards

 

[eragon]

Disclaimer: I think it's pretty clear, even just on a surface level, that BW/XY have had the least tiering action over time compared to the rest of the oldgens. This has created a few funny situations, such as XY's power ceiling actually being higher than SM's, since both Mega Gengar and Mega Kang are banned in SM. Generally speaking, I would be supportive of attempts at tiering action in both BW and XY (although I've played a lot less of BW comparatively) as I feel both of these tiers could be improved if the more modern tiering attitudes that have recently shaped ADV/DPP were applied here. I'm honestly mostly ambivalent to whatever people want to try in XY as I feel there are many possible options to move forward and I think the tier will be enjoyable regardless of which one is taken. If there's any kind of consensus for suspecting something, I support it.

With that being said:


I don't actually think this pokemon is that good at providing consistent value in games. Excluding Twave, this guy's best move relative to the rest of the format is hidden power ice. In practice, it's pretty much just a variance bot that has the potential to turn people away from the tier just by watching a game. The games where Thundurus is getting a lot of value are not games indicative of a healthy tier. For an example (this is literally just the first game that came to mind) check out this replay from week 1 of the 2024 DPL (DPL X):
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen6doublesou-2045746142

Hax can happen in any tier but personally I don't view this Pokemon as having much value beyond introducing variance. I used 0 Prankster Thundurus in my 7-0 run in ORASPL earlier this year because my philosophy was if you want to win consistently and have higher quality games Thundurus is usually outclassed. I don't think Thundurus is broken, but I think it's certainly uncompetitive. The next question is whether it's uncompetitive enough for a ban. Personally, I think it's high usage pushes it beyond that threshold. I don't think it's format ruining but I'm pretty certain that the tier would be better off without Thundurus clicking twave. This means there are two options:

-Ban Thund
Benefit: Probably ? falls more in line with tiering policy in general and tackles the specific element. I generally agree with what Idyll said here in doucord:

Spoiler

Collateral: Defiant Thundurus is an unproblematic set that's probably the 2nd best defiant mon in the format behind Bisharp. However, Ik a lot of people aren't really that high on this set to begin with so this isn't the biggest deal in the world. Personally, I think it'd be a small shame to lose this but definitely not a dealbreaker: the role this pokemon plays is cool but not super significant in the context of the tier. Prankster thundurus could maybe be run without twave but at that point it would just be clicking taunt with a good defensive profile (not worth preserving on its own).

-OR-

-Ban Twave
Benefit: Thund stays in the format to click taunt or wild charge
Collateral: Other pokemon that click twave. I'm not sure I've actually seen anything besides Thund click Twave in this tier but in a Thund-less world maybe Zapdos, Cress, or Deo-S could click it (Deo-S might already do that on occasion but I just don't remember if I've seen it LOL). I don't think this collateral is significant at all but I think it's worth noting that a Thundurus ban is probably easier to justify tiering policy-wise as it's basically the only clicker of Twave rn

However, I'd like to propose a third option: Banning Prankster Thundurus. I think this is a longshot and probably even harder to justify with tiering policy stuff but if we could swing it I genuinely think it's the cleanest solution here. Defiant Thund and Prankster Thund are so totally different that they're basically completely different Pokemon and this also avoids the collateral of preventing unproblematic mons from using twave primarily for speed control. Is this a complex ban? Yes. However, XY is a generally well-liked dou oldgen primarily played by a hyperspecific subcommunity on smogon. I don't think we need to be sticklers for tiering policy in this case and this would have the smallest potential impact on the tier, something I think is worth considering since it's an established oldgen and minimizing the potential impact of a ban seems like a reasonable aim to me.


This Pokemon is so dumb LOL- 50% parental bond is pretty egregiously overpowered. However, despite its high usage, I think you can probably leave this one as is considering the way the mon is predominantly being played. You can almost always assume a given Kang is Stoss and while Stoss is a very consistent way to make progress, it doesn't capitalize on what makes Kang's ability so broken in this gen. I actually think Power-Up-Punch Kang is much more "broken" but it doesn't really see much play- if it was PUP Kang getting 32% Usage, I think the case for a ban would be much stronger but that's simply not the way it's usually used. On the other hand, the metagame is just too fast for Stoss Kang to click wish, which I'm pretty sure was what got it banned in SM. The metagame can handle this pokemon and stuff like Aegislash is really good at switching into it. Would the tier be interesting without it? Yes, but I don't think it really needs to be removed, at least not when something like Thund is still committing warcrimes. + I also think removing the best fake out clicker in a tier where the other options for fake out are pretty hard to come by might have some unintended consequences (not a major concern but I could see this being annoying).


No one mentioned this pokemon but I'm bringing it up anyways because I think this is the best pokemon in the tier by a fairly wide margin and I don't really like the effect it has on the game. I feel it damage trades a little too universally well and creates the largest stat check barrier in the tier- most pokemon are simply not capable of knocking out Volcanion in a reasonable amount of time. Further, teams can often only fit like 2 mons that can actually break Volcanion which can makes it both very difficult to play around and makes building the tier feel a lot less interesting. Personally, I think this tier would be much more enjoyable without Volc around and it's probably the only thing I would change besides Thund so I'm just noting it here.

 

[Platinum God n1n1]

We should not be banning anything for old gens. It's very easy to ban stuff but extremely rare after the fact to unban things. It took years to unban skymin and mega salamence, even though there was a lot of support to unban them for a long time.
I hate thundy twave but we assessed it along with many other things such as kang. We decided not to ban while it was the active gen. XY is one of the favorite generations in DOU. Making changes to it now is short sighted and it is very unwise to be messing with it now.
If the game was very unpopular because people did not enjoy certain mons and/or moves so much that they did not participate then considering changes would make sense.

If anything we should suspect Jirachi.
We suspected it twice and decided not to ban, then when the council got their chance they banned it during gen7. Because at that point gen6 was not in focus so the outrage that occurred during the first attempted council ban was not there.

 

[GraylyHen94]

We should not be banning anything for old gens. It's very easy to ban stuff but extremely rare after the fact to unban things. It took years to unban skymin and mega salamence, even though there was a lot of support to unban them for a long time.
I hate thundy twave but we assessed it along with many other things such as kang. We decided not to ban while it was the active gen. XY is one of the favorite generations in DOU. Making changes to it now is short sighted and it is very unwise to be messing with it now.
If the game was very unpopular because people did not enjoy certain mons and/or moves so much that they did not participate then considering changes would make sense.

If anything we should suspect Jirachi.
We suspected it twice and decided not to ban, then when the council got their chance they banned it during gen7. Because at that point gen6 was not in focus so the outrage that occurred during the first attempted council ban was not there.

Aptly put, well said. This revisionism of XY is a ridiculous suggestion and is an amateur complaint. Pokemon is the way it is, and removing Thundurus or Thunder Wave would be absurd. I also agree with trying out Jirachi again. It'll probably be busted, but it's worth a shot and I'm always in favor of testing older banned elements. Mega Mence is a great asset to doubles, as is Skymin