Why do we use Bold Blissey?

Havak

Havak

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Now, I may be missing something blatently obvous here. But a friend asked me this question, and after actually dicussing it a lot, I really don't see an immediate use for a Bold Nature. I basically couldn't come up with a strong enough argument to warrant this Nature, so I ask you. Why is Bold Blissey the standard?

Blissey gains only 11 stat points in Defence from using a Bold Nature, this is only ever resulting in around a 5%~ difference in damage taken. Is it really needed that much? I can't think of any situation where that 5%~ is really making a drastic difference. Bear in mind I haven't actually calc'd everything Blissey is likely to be taking. Though you won't be letting Blissey take many, if any Physical hits at all. This also can't be a D/P factor, seeing as we've been using Bold Blissey since Adv.

Blssey with Bold Nature, 252 HP/Def/6 SDef gets: 714 HP/130 Def/307 SDef

Blissey with Calm Nature, 252 HP/252 Def/6SDef gets: 714 HP/119 Def/337 SDef

Modest also has its uses when paired with Ice Beam etc, and getting over 200 Satk is nice.

So, are the benefits of having 11 more Defence better than having 30 more SDef or 18 more SAtk? Though I know people won't always be going max HP on Blissey, this is just an example. But that would allow for even more Special Attack or Special Defence. With heavy hitters like Porygon Z and Alakazam having Choice Specs, and with Focus Blast running around, the Extra SDef will grant greater Defence against these "threats". I haven't damage calc'd anything yet, but I'm just trying to find out why this is the standard over Calm.

The only thing I can think of is that the benefits from using Calm/Modest are even less than using Bold...
 
With Bold, Blissey can take more hits from the likes of Dugtrio and Salamence, allowing her to get that crucial Ice Beam in. However, Calm only has its uses in ubers, where stuff like SpecsOgre and CM Mewtwo are rampant, who can actually 2KO Blissey with their special attacks.
 
I could be wrong, but I was under the impression that with Blissey easily walling most special attackers, that it could afford to have a Bold nature, as well as invest a sizable portion of EV's into Def without seeing any noticeable decrease in special walling performance, at least in OU.

Yesterday, I OHKO'ed a Blissey with my dying Life Orb Aerodactyl (6% HP), winning the match (Stone Edge). I later found out that the guy had no def EV's. With a proper investment, he could have survived, still walling my remaining special-oriented pokes to death flawlessly.

Furthermore, what's the point of sacrificing defenses for a slightly stronger Ice Beam if you still need to reach 267 to OHKO Salamence and Garchomp?
 
Blissey's Defense is so low that giving it max IVs, EVs and a Bold nature roughly halves the amount of damage that it would take if it had min EVs, IVs and had a defense lowering nature. Its Special Defense and HP are so high that boosting them will make very little difference overall.
 
But even with the Neutral Nature in Defence, it doesn't make a huge difference, does it?

Max Atk, CB Salamence with Dragon Claw is doing:

62-72% Damage with Dragon Claw on a Neutral Nature Blissey
56-66% Damage with Dragon Claw on a Bold Blissey.

It's a 2HKO whichever way you look at it. Bold doesn't help.

Blissey can again be 2HKO'd with Bold or Neutral Nature from Dugtrio's Choice Banded Earthquake, with Life Orb it's not really a huge problem.

It's not like you'll be switching in on these things, so if they're 2HKOing, you're hitting your Ice Beam while they switch in on you, or after they've hit you once as they can only 2HKO...
 
The idea is that Blissey already walls most special attackers completely, so increasing her sp def would hardly make a difference, and increasing her defense via bold gives her MUCH more survivability overall.

Or something like that, anyways.

62-72% Damage with Dragon Claw on a Neutral Nature Blissey
56-66% Damage with Dragon Claw on a Bold Blissey.

It's a 2HKO whichever way you look at it. Bold doesn't help.
Click to expand...

That may be a 2hko, but that's just one specific situation. There will be plenty of times when taking 8% less damage can change things from a 2hko into a 3hko.
 
Dark Android said:
With Bold, Blissey can take more hits from the likes of Dugtrio and Salamence, allowing her to get that crucial Ice Beam in. However, Calm only has its uses in ubers, where stuff like SpecsOgre and CM Mewtwo are rampant, who can actually 2KO Blissey with their special attacks.
Click to expand...
Let me support this with some figures:

Adamant max Atk Dugtrio's Earthquake vs Bold max Def/148Hp EV Blissey: 26-31%
vs Calm Blissey: 28-34%
(Actually, it's pretty much a 4HKO, either way.)

CBMence's Dragon Claw vs Bold max Def/148 Hp EV Blissey: 49-57%
vs Calm Blissey: 53-62%
(Calm Bliss is easier to get 2HKO'd.)

Also, with Stealth Rock in play, a max Atk Lucario's Close Combat could OHKO Calm Bliss.

EDIT: Okay, is there something wrong with me or MetalKid's calculator?
 
General Tso said:
I can see where Havak is coming from on this one. Survivability from what?
Click to expand...

Exactly. There is the argument that Calm or Modest might not do much either. But is it really a big enough difference for everyone to instantly say "Bold > Calm"?

"Adamant max Atk Dugtrio's Earthquake vs Bold max Def/148Hp EV Blissey: 26-31%
vs Calm Blissey: 28-34%
(Actually, it's pretty much a 4HKO, either way.)"
Click to expand...

What the hell is that? ._. No one would use Dugtrio without a Life Orb or Choice Band, it's got to be 2HKOing Blissey... Occasionally a 3HKO
 
Havak said:
Exactly. There is the argument that Calm or Modest might not do much either. But is it really a big enough difference for everyone to instantly say "Bold > Calm"?
Click to expand...

Well, I guess it must be because that is what everybody does say. I guess its the best we can do to help against Blissey's greatest weakness. Physical moves.
 
Bold Max Def/HP Blissey vs. 277 Atk Donphan Earthquake 32 - 38%
Max HP/0 Def Blissey vs. 277 Atk Donphan Earthquake 75 - 88%

Same goes for Swampert, Hippowdon, Gliscor and most other physical attacking tanks/walls without a strong Fighting move.
 
Phuquoph said:
Bold Max Def/HP Blissey vs. 277 Atk Donphan Earthquake 32 - 38%
Max HP/0 Def Blissey vs. 277 Atk Donphan Earthquake 75 - 88%

Same goes for Swampert, Hippowdon, Gliscor and most other physical attacking tanks/walls without a strong Fighting move.
Click to expand...

Erm.. I never said anything about removing all the Defence EVs. I'd still run max Def, just not with the Bold Nature.
 
Phu, I'm not sure that's what he meant. If you used a calm/modest nature Blissey that doesn't mean you use 0 Def Ivs.
 
im pretty sure he means to keep the 252 defense evs just to switch the nature, trading 11 defense points for 30 spdef points.

I can see where he is coming from.
 
We're not saying take the defense EVs out, we're saying that the extra 11 defense from the +defense Nature isn't helping Blissey survive anything that it wouldn't with a neutral nature.
I've been running calm Blissey since I started playing advance competitively for this very reason, and only today decided to ask Havak if I was missing anything. Surely it would be better to run the standard 252 def EVs but have a +Satk nature, getting an extra 18 Satk, than to have an extra 11 defense from a +def nature that isn't really helping with anything.
 
lol, we all posted at the same time. Except you kinneas. You're two minutes late. So, I was understanding this correctly. Good to know.
 
Ah, my mistake.

I'm still not seeing a reason to use anything but Bold, you need to take as little damage as possible from Pursuit from Heracross, Tyranitar, etc. It may only be a marginal difference, but there isn't enough reason to switch natures. You still wall special attackers without Calm and you're still not powerful enough with Modest to be more of a threat.
 
Nothing short of a nasty plotting Porygon-Z or a Manaphy has a chance at taking out blissey on the special spectrum, intimidating pokemon such as Choice Band Raticate can 2HKO her without any defense EVs/nature.

Defense is all important on blissey because the other two defensive stats she has are so godlike without any extra improvement that only the strongest special attackers even tickle her. The only time where a no defense blissey is a good idea is Ubers, and even then it's not a bad idea to keep some on her to prevent pursuit metagross rape.
 
I think about this all the time too. I really dont see why Bold is used, for the exact same reason as Havak. 11 Defense is not that big of a difference, but 30 Special Defense is. I usually run Calm on my Blissey regardless of if im playing Ubers or OU. I find the boost from Calm is really good to help it take Aura Sphere(s) from Togekiss/Lucario, as well as Focus Blast from Alakazam/Gengar.
 
I think the Dugtrio Analysis explains it in a way like this, Adamant CB-Trio when faced against optimal (and usual) conditions will average a 2HKO against Bold 252/252 Blissey, while the same conditions against Calm/Modest 252/252 Blissey result in a Guaranteed (106% Dmg) KO, here are the numbers

Adamant 252/252 Dugtrio CB-Earthquake vs 252/252 Bold Blissey
Damage: 49.58% - 58.26%

Same Dugtrio, Same item, same move vs 252/252 Neutral Nature Blissey
Damage: 54.06% - 63.59%

now to compare damage from a Life orb'd Dugtrio:
Against Bold 252/252 Damage: 43.00% - 50.70% (never a 2HKO unless there isn't Leftovers as a factor)
Against Neutral 252/252 Damage: 47.06% - 55.32% (there's a chance, and luck can always screw you over :| )

Also, what's the point in Calm when you're taking negligible (Softboilable) damage from special sources not called Cspecs Lucario AuraSphere, if you're running Specs Alakazam with Focus Blast you're asking to have a Dusknoir/Gengar/Heracross switchin for free >.> and without specs you're guaranteed nothing of the sort resembling a 2HKO

Timid 252 Specs Alakazam vs 252/252 Bold (or neutral) Blissey Damage: 44.12% - 51.96%

Modest Alakazam against Bold(neutral) Bliss Damage: 48.32% - 56.86%

bleh, running numbers makes me tired, i'll leave it at that for now:

fine Focus Blast from Gengar:
Modest Life Orb Gengar vs Calm 252/252 HP/Def
Damage: 37.25% - 43.84%

Modest Life Orb Gengar vs Bold/Modest 252/252 HP/Def
Damage: 40.76% - 48.04%

Both accounts are guaranteed 3HKOs. Neither accounts are POSSIBLE 2HKOs
 
I used to hold the idea that Calm Blissey was more practical than Bold. However, the main problem with the argument is that it requires that you only compare total stats, rather than what impact those stats would have on the amount of damage that you take. Looking at it proportionally rather than numerically, both Bold and Calm provide a 10% stat boost. Now, which do you think will be more useful: a 10% stat boost to your hideously weak defensive stat, or a 10% boost to a stat that is already obnoxiously high?

Although this argument doesn't work perfectly because of the way that damage is calculated, let's say that a 10% defense boost equals a 9% reduction in damage (since 1 / 1.1 = ~.91) Do you think that it would be more beneficial to reduce the damage you take from special attacks by 9%, or reduce the damage that you take from physical attacks by 9%? In most cases, the damage that you take from special attacks is going to be negligible, while the damage that you take from physical attacks will be quite draconian in nature, and 9% of that physical attack will add up to a lot more than the 9% you save from those special attacks (which may add up to less than 9% for each attack you take, because of the way that Leftovers and Softboiled/Wish work).
 
CZ said:
I think about this all the time too. I really dont see why Bold is used, for the exact same reason as Havak. 11 Defense is not that big of a difference, but 30 Special Defense is. I usually run Calm on my Blissey regardless of if im playing Ubers or OU. I find the boost from Calm is really good to help it take Aura Sphere(s) from Togekiss/Lucario, as well as Focus Blast from Alakazam/Gengar.
Click to expand...

Well, think of it like this. When you EV Shuckle, it has 20 base HP and 230 in both defenses.

You want to max its HP because its defenses are already so high that maxing them won't make much of a difference. However, because its HP is extremely low, it will make a huge difference as the damage calculations will have low numbers thanks to the defenses, but low damage numbers with low HP cancel it out.

Now, with Blissey, this works the opposite way. You will have extremely high damage numbers, but that gets cancelled out by the high HP. You need to make its defense as high as possible to keep these numbers from getting to astonomical levels.

Let's look at this as well. Blissey's minimum defense is 56 ok?

Max defense with personality is 130.

Percentage-wise, 130 into 56 is approximately 232%. That means that investing full EVs and personality has increased your physical defense by 2.3x. Without personality, 119 into 56 is approximately 212%. That is only 2.1x. This means that her personality increases her defense by a nice 20%.

Now, let's do the same thing with Blissey's special defense. Her minimum is 306. Now, I know you're not doing this, but if you have max EVs +personality for her special defense this is what happens. 405 into 306 percentage-wise is approximately 132% which increases her ability to take special hits by 1.3x. Without personality it would be 369. 369 into 306 percentage-wise would be approximately 120% which increases her ability to take special hits by 1.2x.

This means that a +SDef personality increases her ability to take special hits by only 10%, while a +Def personality increases her ability to take physical hits by 20%.

Either that, or an easier way is to take the amount of stat points that the personality raises it by and divide that by the minimum to get the percentage it raises the actual defense by.

EG. The Bold personality raises Blissey's defense by 11 when you have max EVs. Her minimum defense is 56. Divide 11 into 56, multiply by 100. You just found the percentage. Do that with the special defense side. Compare the two. Bravo.

Remember, with low stats, EVERY STAT POINT COUNTS FOR SOMETHING.

Sorry, this is the best I can explain it without trailing off into some other mathematical world... :P
 
this doesnt change the fact that the 1.2 x sp.def is much bigger then the 2.3x defence.

30 is about 2.7x 11

so that 1.2 is almost 3 times bigger then the 2.3 def.
 
ahah, why did i have the feeling I would have to do this eventually... *addressed to Uxie FTW's deleted post*

Choice Scarf Jolly 252 Garchomp Outrage vs 252 HP 0 Def Neutral nature Blissey (Uxie FTW's proposed Blissey):
Damage: 115.69% - 136.13%

Same Garchomp, 252/252 Bold Blissey
Damage: 54.62% - 64.29%


One of these Blisseys can return an Ice beam, One of these Blisseys just doesn't belong. Let's see another example:
CB-Crunch Adamant 252 Tyranitar vs Neutral 252 HP Blissey
Damage: 129.83% - 152.80%

Same TTar vs Bold 252/252 Blissey
Damage: 56.16% - 66.11%


Now the Jolly numbers with Stone Edge!
Jolly 252/252 TTar Using Stone Edge vs 252/252 Bold Blissey
Damage: 42.72% - 50.28% An average 3HKO with Lefties Sandstorm, a very very rare 2HKO

Jolly 252/252 TTar Using Stone Edge vs 252 HP Neutral Blissey
Damage: 98.60% - 116.11%
A guaranteed 1HKO with Sandstorm, this is without Dragon dance or anything else as a factor.
 
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