What?! Heracross is a "disappointment" of D/P?

[M BLADE]

Oh yeah, power isn't everything.

I mean, Heracross is the poke that hits the hardest in the entire metagame (including Ubers). Nothing can come close to Heracross power, not even Rampardos. I mean, he can have a 300 BP(Reversal) and a 240 BP(Swarm Megahorn) moves at his disposal, that's what i say powerful... ok, not everyone can pull that off with success, but even without that he can have two STAB 120 power moves with Guts raising it's attack to nice levels. No one can have that much power( by that i mean power with more than one move like pretty much every powerful attacking poke).

But, like i said, power isn't everything. Bug/Fighting isn't the best coverage ever, and defensively it can have some use, but it can't have free switches. And no priority hurts him. If Game Freak gives him Mach Punch or some new strong priority in the next generation, we will see him again being widely used.
But right now, he is outclassed, and if people can't give him some new use with a different set that differs him from "other pokes", then there's not much we can do about it.

 

[darkseeker4]

[/quote]

Heracross fails in today's metagame as:

1) Latias today are 99% Scarfed and can OHKO it with Draco Meteor.
2) It does not get a priority move like Scizor
3) There is nothing that Heracross counters that other pokemon cannot(Cresselia maybe,but its usage has dropped tremendously)
4) It has too low base Speed and Lucario easily outclasses it with a better stat up move,easier to stat up,a priority move and a bigger movepool and also has special options.
5) Salamence has risen in usage tremendously since Diamond and Pearl and Intimidate really ruins Heracross's sweeping potentials.What's more,nowadays Salamence run Fire Blast in the Classic/New MixMence set and can OHKO Heracross without any trouble at all.
6) Gyarados is also a common pokemon and can own Heracross without any trouble at all due to Intimidate.It can also set up on Heracross.
7) Limited movepool.The only useful moves Heracross have are Close Combat,Megahorn,Stone Edge and Earthquake(if it could learn it).The others are rubbish(unless you run RestTalk set).
8) Rotom formes wall it.Stone Edge does not even come close to 3HKOing at all and it gets OHKOed by Overheat,or 2HKOed by TBolt / Shadow Ball.Choiced variants get burned and its usage is gone.
9) Easy for stat up sweepers to set up on it.Salamence can DD on Scarfed Megahorns / EQs / Close Combats , Gyarados can too. CMLatias can set up on Scarf EQ / Close Combat / SE.
10 ) Outclassed by all physical sweepers due to their better movepool and their ability to be a Physically based Mix Sweeper like Infernape.

I guess that is all about why Heracross is a 'disappointment'.

Everything you said I can say about any pokemon.

1) Latias today are 99% Scarfed and can OHKO it with Draco Meteor.

Get your facts right,99% really?

2) It does not get a priority move like Scizor

scizor doesn't get tow 120 bp STABs

There is nothing that Heracross counters that other pokemon cannot(Cresselia maybe,but its usage has dropped tremendously)

Yes but same for everyother pokemon.there is no pokemon with only one counter

Gyarados is also a common pokemon and can own Heracross without any trouble at all due to Intimidate.It can also set up on Heracross.

SE may be the worst move but has its uses.

7) Limited movepool.The only useful moves Heracross have are Close Combat,Megahorn,Stone Edge and Earthquake(if it could learn it).The others are rubbish(unless you run RestTalk set).

look at analysis before comenting.

Rotom formes wall it.Stone Edge does not even come close to 3HKOing at all and it gets OHKOed by Overheat,or 2HKOed by TBolt / Shadow Ball.Choiced variants get burned and its usage is gone.

It gets pursuit and Night slash.(3hko from stone edge? are you fucking serious?)

9) Easy for stat up sweepers to set up on it.Salamence can DD on Scarfed Megahorns / EQs / Close Combats , Gyarados can too. CMLatias can set up on Scarf EQ / Close Combat / SE.

That holds true for any scarfed pokemon including scizor.
and since when can latias calm mind on a stone edge of a 120 base attack stat.

Outclassed by all physical sweepers due to their better movepool and their ability to be a Physically based Mix Sweeper like Infernape.

Really?outclassed by all physical sweepers.

 

[Erazor]

Choiced variants get burned and its usage is gone.

Heracross appreciates the burn, thank you very much. It's called Guts.

 

[Valantaro]

I'm sorry, but that post was so ridiculous I think it deserves two responses:

1) Latias today are 99% Scarfed and can OHKO it with Draco Meteor.

Latias | Item | Choice Scarf | 22.7

22.7% is definately 99% of Latias, and while Latias outruns and OHKOs with Draco Meteor (I'm not even sure of this, as some Heracross run HP EVs, but I'm not saying anything for certain), most Heracross (and when I say most, I mean 44.5%) run Choice Scarf, so they are faster than the more common Life Orb and Leftovers version.

2) It does not get a priority move like Scizor

Okay, people saying Scizor is better than Heracross, please stop. They are two different Pokemon. Scizor is no where near as powerful as Heracross. Heracross has two 120 Base Power STABs, an ability that can make him stronger when statused (meaning that Heracross can actually switch-in on Rotom formes slower than it and hit with a Guts boosted Night Slash), and has Stone Edge to ruin three potential counters (Gyarados, Salamence, Zapdos). Scizor can't get past Skarmory without Swords Dance, but Heracross can (CC 2HKOs with Stealth Rock).

Hell, max HP / max Def Cresselia takes 90% minimum from an Adamant CB Megahorn, yet it takes 62% maximum from a CB U-turn. Please people, don't compare these two. Just because they're both Bug-types doesn't mean they can be compared. Yes, Scizor is a lot more effective in this current metagame, but Heracross has it's values, and most of the time runs a completely different moveset and has a different playstyle than Scizor.

3) There is nothing that Heracross counters that other pokemon cannot(Cresselia maybe,but its usage has dropped tremendously)

Couldn't the same thing be said for any Pokemon? Metagross can check Tyranitar, Weavile, Salamence, etc...as well. It's true that Scizor checks a ton of today's threats, but that doesn't mean it outclasses Heracross.

4) It has too low base Speed and Lucario easily outclasses it with a better stat up move,easier to stat up,a priority move and a bigger movepool and also has special options.

There is no arguing that Lucario is the superior Swords Dancer, but when it comes to the Choice Bander, Heracross packs a lot more power, and even the Choice Scarf set can outclass Lucairo as it OHKOs things like Celebi, Latias, etc...rather than 2HKO (I think Dark Pulse fails to even 2HKO Latias). They're a bit different, though I do admit if I was to base a team around someone, Lucario would be a lot easier due to its superior SD set.

5) Salamence has risen in usage tremendously since Diamond and Pearl and Intimidate really ruins Heracross's sweeping potentials.What's more,nowadays Salamence run Fire Blast in the Classic/New MixMence set and can OHKO Heracross without any trouble at all.

CB Heracross can catch Salamence on the switch with a Stone Edge and deal 85% minimum even with Intimidate in account. With Stealth Rock down, this is a guaranteed OHKO. So basically, if you can predict a Salamence switch, you can kill it. Pretty easy stuff, right? And even if Salamence comes in on a Close Combat and Megahorn, it'll take roughly 40% on average. I agree that Salamence's rise in usage has hurt Heracross, but there are ways around it (Heracross with Choice Scarf revenge kills MixMence).

6) Gyarados is also a common pokemon and can own Heracross without any trouble at all due to Intimidate.It can also set up on Heracross.

If Gyarados comes in on Stone Edge, it's going to take 85% minimum, again an OHKO with Stealth Rock. If it comes in on CC / Megahorn, it's going to take roughly 40% on average. This 2HKOs with Stealth Rock. Heracross is faster than Gyarados, thus Heracross will beat Gyarados every single time (assuming Stealth Rock is up). I don't know where you were trying to go with this.

7) Limited movepool.The only useful moves Heracross have are Close Combat,Megahorn,Stone Edge and Earthquake(if it could learn it).The others are rubbish(unless you run RestTalk set).

What else does Heracross need? Close Combat, Megahorn, Stone Edge really covers the bulk of OU, with very few things really stopping it. It gets Night Slash for Rotom-A, and Pursuit for the likes of Blissey, etc...switching. Just because it's movepool is small does not mean it is ineffective. Scizor would kill for a 120 Base Power STAB by the way.

8) Rotom formes wall it.Stone Edge does not even come close to 3HKOing at all and it gets OHKOed by Overheat,or 2HKOed by TBolt / Shadow Ball.Choiced variants get burned and its usage is gone.

Well let's see. 43.6% of Rotom-h run Bold, meaning they are likely defensive thus outrun by Heracross. Assuming they are running the standard Shadow Ball / Thunderbolt / Overheat / Will O Wisp set which has 252 HP / 168 Def EVs. This Rotom takes 42.43%-50.00% from Stone Edge, a 28% chance to 2HKO with Leftovers and Stealth Rock. If they burn Heracross on the switch, they will be taking 63% minimum from Stone Edge, however, let's assume Heracross is running Night Slash (34.2% of Heracross use it). A non-Guts Night Slash already deals 59.21%-70.39% to Rotom-h, and with Guts it does 89% minimum. Now, where exactly is this 3-4HKO you were talking about.

9) Easy for stat up sweepers to set up on it.Salamence can DD on Scarfed Megahorns / EQs / Close Combats , Gyarados can too. CMLatias can set up on Scarf EQ / Close Combat / SE.

Gyarados sets-up even easier on those CB Scizor you were mentioning earlier. And remember, Scarf Heracross outruns Gyarados even after a Dragon Dance. CM Latias will still be revenge killed by Heracross, so you're only valid point is Salamence. Please also take note that a 6 HP / 0 Def Latias will be taking 42% minimum from a Scarf Stone Edge, which 2HKOs 88.56% of the time with Stealth Rock. Have fun setting up on that Latias. Defensive ones fare better, but still get killed by Megahorn regardless.

10 ) Outclassed by all physical sweepers due to their better movepool and their ability to be a Physically based Mix Sweeper like Infernape

Oh yes, Choice Band Shuckle outclasses Heracross because it can stop set-ups from Salamence and co. with STAB Stone Edge. It really outclasses Heracross

Look, Heracross does get outclassed in a few aspects, and I can see why it's less favored than say Lucario or Scizor. Heracross has been disappointing in Platinum, but in DP it was an absolute beast. I'm not saying the article is wrong (I actually agree with most of it), but these 10 "points" were pretty ridiculous.

 

[akarias]

Heracross is kiiiinda like rampardos. Incredible attacking power, but little defense and speed. I mean medicham's really strong too, and can revenge kill ok with a choice scarf. Now heracross is slightly tougher, but the problem is besides status (btw 2 of which he HATES-sleep and paralyze), he can't switch on anything the way bulky choicers (heatran, jirachi, latias) can. More importantly, he can't trick, and doesn't get any immunities. Everyone knows his SD set is weak without priority, so it's pretty straightforward that with choice scarf unless you have great prediction stall teams create problems, since switching into spikes/tspikes/sr hurts, and against offensive teams all you can really do is revenge kill, since you can't set up on anything.

 

[lordkira]

Heracross isn't particularly slow. The problem is that it is not particularly fast and this became a problem for him in the current metagame as speed became incredibly important with how metagame is at the moment (very offensive with many scarfers and what not). Sleep and paralysis are hated, not just by Heracross, but pretty much any sweeper/tank/etc. Many pokemons don't get tricks and are without immunities. What you just said isn't particularly false, yet it can be said for pretty much any other pokemons.

 

[mtr]

Heracross' speed is disappointing, and while ScarfHera is definitely not outclassed by Scarftran, Scarftran is probably the superior choice for the teamslot, just because of it's ability to handle SDLuke and wallbreak with Explosion. Heracross' wallbreaker sets are impressive and unique, though, and Heracross is very useful in Ubers as a Darkrai check.

 

[Jumpman16]

the main reason imo is bullet punch, using a primarily-revenge poke with mediocre HP/Def with a primary move that makes its defenses even worse is very similar to the liability slaking saddles its users with the turn afterward. if you dont either resist bullet punch or sr your life is going to be difficult in ou.

of the top 25 pokes in ou, only these dont resist either sr or bullet punch: salamence, latias, tyranitar, gengar, blissey, azelf, and gliscor. the first three are all 600 BST pokes that can make up for this deficiency (and salamence has intimidate to help its plight while tyranitar is really 654 BST), gengar and blissey usage has fallen off dramatically (especially gengar) since scizor got BP, "azelf is only a suicide lead", and gliscor is bulky enough to take a bullet punch and resists everything scizor will use but BP and has roost to cope. i would say this is not a coincidence.

They would actually hurt SO MUCH more due to a base 125 attack stat and base 125 STAB bug attack in Megahorn, with the possibilities of soaking up a burn which would send it to SKY HIGH Levels!

Or Registeel switches in.

fyi heracross 2hkos the standard registeel with sr up over 90% of the time with adamant cb guts megahorn

 

[sanjay120]

also fyi: machamp resists stealth rock. just another reason to use him i guess.

reading this thread really made me want to pull out a heracross and kick ass with it, but then i realized machamp is better. hera needs mach punch/u-turn/new bug priority/dragon dance, it's so outclassed. still incredible at killing things though.

 

[familyguyman]

Heracross might be the single best pokemon at rampaging a team once it's counters are gone but it has so many counters that it's nearly impossible to do. Therefore, he is relegated to niche roles which are usually performed better by others. I don't care about dual base 120 STABs when Flying, Poison and Ghost types resist both without doing anything. Add in mediocre speed and Heracross is left either too weak or too slow. There's almost always a better option which is sad since Heracross is one of my favourites.

 

[Jumpman16]

it doesnt resist the most popular priority moves in the game, i think it would be in a similar position even if it had 100 base speed. if dp was about "lol i dont care what you do cause i will just revenge kill you with scarf [pokemon]", a "strategy" for which heracross was largely at fault, then dppt has given heracross its just desserts by giving scizor bullet punch, which will always ohko heracross after SR damage with LO if hera revenged something with CC. somebody tell me why it isnt just that simple, and/or tell me why people still use gengar lol

 

[shipship]

SD Heracross is a terror against stall teams, but dies too easily vs most teams.

Scarf-Heracross fails to revenge too many things for a supposed revenge killer (DD mence is faster and KO's with Outrage, SD-Luke kills him with +2 ES, and Scizor's Bullet Punch does a crapload to it).

It's just outclassed too often. CB Scizor is easier to fit into a team and doesn't care about being walled unlike Hera (it just U-turns out which Hera can't do).

 

[MythTrainerInfinity]

Heracross is the biggest threat to Flame Orb Cresselia, which I base a lot of my teams around since it deals with a lot of the current threats nicely. If Scizor comes in on Cress Scizor takes the burn and becomes useless for the rest of the battle. If Hera comes in it becomes an insane killing machine. Then again Flame Orb Cress is very rare (but she has kept me on the leaderboard pretty much since early D/P).

The thing Hera has over Machamp is two very powerful STAB moves.

In the end however, Heracross takes considerably more prediction to play than Scizor or Machamp. It seems like over time people tend to play with more certainty (except lol Stone Edge). If you are a vet of the 3rd gen you will remember how prediction heavy those battles were.

If you want to take a risk and have some fun use Heracross. If you want to be certain that you'll be assured reliable damage use Scizor, but don't be surprised when I play my Flame Orb Cress on ya :P

 

[Boingo]

So choiced Hera ain't working no more. No big deal, really. I give my Swords Dance Heracross lots of paralysis support and it works just fine and dandy, outspeeding stuff, boosting its attack stat and being able to change attacks because hey, no choice item. With that, all you still need is a teammate who can switch into a Scizor Bullet Punch (preferably Magnezone) and you should be fine.

Or maybe even try Bulk Up and enjoy the benefits of boosted defense. Though I think +1 CC doesn't OHKO max HP Scizor.

 

[panamaxis]

Agreeing what others are said, SD and CB sets are (largely) outclassed by lucario and scizor respectively. So that leaves Choice Scarf, which leaves you subject to being set up by a wide variety of pokemon as lack the power to threaten them as much.

Bulk Up, Rest Talk Megahorn anyone?

 

[TSPhoenix]

I've been using Heracross fairly consistently since 200-play back when he only had Brick Break, with almost every new set of games he has had options added to his arsenal. I was really looking forward to Heracross in DP thanks to CC, lots of useful new items, and other good new physical moves. In early DP he did fairly well, but over time scored less and less KOs.

Other things Choice Banded better, Choice Scarf was good despite being a little less powerful than you'd like however priority ruined that too. As a Swords Dancer he was just too slow without Salac and again priority means it doesn't even matter if he can activate a berry.

Sandstorm and entry hazards ruined his other options, rendering Focus Sash/Endure sets useless. Plus they resulted in far too much residual damage to make absorbing Toxic un-useable, especially @Life Orb and Burn sets didn't last long enough to sweep. Even if not-statused the residual damage really hurt Hera's durability meaning that taking a hit to get a KO is often not possible.

Heracross can do a lot of things, yet most of those strategies got ruined in DP. If you can clear out revenge killers then he is immensely powerful, but teams seem to carry so many of those these days (2/3 of my team work as revenge killers) that its hard to pull off.

 

[Mia [old]]

Choice Scarf was good despite being a little less powerful than you'd like however priority ruined that too.

Actually, I would think it's a bit simpler than that. I've always seen 4th gen Heracross as akin to Absol, where no one questions its power, but rather its deficiencies elsewhere. But lately, even without priority moves, the Choice Scarf variant loses any significant pressuring value in the face of commonly used pokemon that have the bulk to take a hit and abuse those other weaker stats. While others can use a Choice Band better, I think the CB set is its best shot at OU.

As for the main topic of the thread, I think it is fair to say that Heracross is a disappointment so long as Scizor, Lucario, Infernape, and others are available.

 

[blasphemy1]

@ Valantaro: I think we can all agree, that U-Turn and priority are far superior to two STABs which are both resisted by Salamence, Gyarados, and Rotom-A. Let us not forget that Scizor has 10 resistances, including the ever useful dragon.

Scarf Heracross in the current OU metagame is set up bait for Scizor(Megahorn), Salamence, Gyarados, Rotom-A, and Latias(Close Combat). It is far too risky, without enough reward.

 

[Reaver12]

ScarfHera may be set up bait, but the same can be said of any Scarfed Pokemon. I like Heracross alot, he is one of my all time favorites, but I agree that he isn't all that useful in OU anymore. The one thing that I loved about Heracross in D/P play was letting a Latias get 6 Calm Minds up (just for fun/ to be mean) and then have ScarfCross come in and OHKO with Megahorn. I pissed alot of people off that way :-)

 

[Pirika]

Flame Orb Heracross can be useful for Trick Room teams, with 574 atk, two 120BP STAB attacks and the possibility of increasing his atk stat with Sword Dance, Hera can sweep once Trick Room is set.

 

[franky]

People are underrating its Speed quite a bit. I mean c'mon, Trick Room team?

 

[bugmaniacbob]

Scizor and Heracross can quite legitimately be used on the same team together, provided the rest of your team can take Fire attacks. Scizor's U-turns cause a lot of damage to its usual switch-ins, and as Heracross and Scizor share a good number of common switch-ins Heracross can take advantage of these weakened Pokemon to have its own way with the opponent's team. Gyarados and Zapdos cannot keep switching in for fear of Stealth Rock and such, and given time and damage my Scarf Heracross could occasionally sweep an opponent's team with only Close Combat, something I have been unable to achieve with most other strategies for supporting a Scarf Heracross. Scizor is generally too valuable on most teams to be thought of as acting as a simple lure, or so I have found.

Unlike Lucario, Heracross has dual STAB, immunity to Burns, a resistance to Earthquake and Close Combat in exchange for neutrality to Bullet Punch, and slightly more Attack in exchange for slightly less Speed. In my opinion Lucario makes for a poor Choice attacker, or at least inferior to Heracross, since it is forced to rely on type coverage and reliability over sheer power to achieve the same reputation. This is what makes it more inclined towards sweeping than general team support. Band Scizor and Heracross are sufficiently different in their play style that it is not even remotely feasible to compare them to so high a degree. Scizor is a bulky team scout and makeshift revenge killer, Heracross is an unsubtle powerhouse that forces threats aside with its own two fists and little else.

 

[blasphemy1]

ScarfHera may be set up bait, but the same can be said of any Scarfed Pokemon. I like Heracross alot, he is one of my all time favorites, but I agree that he isn't all that useful in OU anymore. The one thing that I loved about Heracross in D/P play was letting a Latias get 6 Calm Minds up (just for fun/ to be mean) and then have ScarfCross come in and OHKO with Megahorn. I pissed alot of people off that way :-)

This is true, but unlike other Scarfed pokemon, the reasons to use Scarf Heracross in the first place are few. He can revenge kill Latias and Tyranitar, the two most used pokemon who are likely to pull of a sweep. Meanwhile, Heatran can revenge kill Scizor, Latias, Metagross, Lucario, Infernape, and Jirachi. Latias can revenge kill Salamence, Gyarados, other Latias, and Infernape. Flygon can revenge kill Salamence, Gyarados, Latias, Tyranitar, Metagross, Lucario(with correct investment), Infernape, and Jirachi. On top of that, most of these pokemon get bonuses besides revenge killing. Heatran has Explosion, Latias has Trick, Flygon has U-Turn, etc.

@ BugManiacBob: Lucario + Scizor is just as effective, no? Heracross has burn immunity, but the only pokemon going to burn him is Rotom-A, who won't take much from Scarf Heracross in the first place. The point of Earthquake and Close Combat resistance is almost as moot as me saying, "Well, Lucario resists Bullet Punch". They don't appreciate those types of hits, and obviously both Earthquake and Close Combat are more powerful than Technician STAB Bullet Punch.

 

[Valantaro]

@ Valantaro: I think we can all agree, that U-Turn and priority are far superior to two STABs which are both resisted by Salamence, Gyarados, and Rotom-A. Let us not forget that Scizor has 10 resistances, including the ever useful dragon.

Scarf Heracross in the current OU metagame is set up bait for Scizor(Megahorn), Salamence, Gyarados, Rotom-A, and Latias(Close Combat). It is far too risky, without enough reward.

I wouldn't say "superior". More useful and perhaps better at keeping momentum / revenge killing, but to be honest U-turn nor Bullet Punch will never deal as much damage as CC / Megahorn will. The main reason people ignore Heracross is probably because they have other more effective ways of dealing damage =/ Poor thing used to shred teams that lacked Gliscor.

 

[pkmn1000]

The thing is this a sub SD cross seems to be working for me. With sub for the priority and muscle band for boosts.