Viable Gyarados Counter

Stallion

Stallion

Tree Young
is a Tiering Contributoris a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnusis a Three-Time Past WCoP Champion
Ive been reading about how hyped Gyarados is and was looking for a decent counter to stop him in his tracks. After a while of searching, I found an answer that was unexpected...Poliwrath! The typical Gyara moveset of DDance, Stone Edge, Waterfall, Ice Fang is completely resisted by Poliwrath, and can get free health versus Waterfall. Even better is that a 252 Atk Adamant Gyara (which will almost never be seen) using Stone Edge versus a 252 HP/252 Def Neutral nature Poliwrath does a piddly 18-22 % damage. Thats pretty darn good.

I was thinking about a moveset such as this.

Poliwrath @ Leftovers
Adamant Nature (+ Atk, - S. Atk)
EV's: 252 HP/4 Atk/252 Def (can probably run less defence then that)
Hypnosis
Focus Punch
Earthquake/Rock Slide
Waterfall

Focus Punch or Hypnosis the switch. EQ and Waterfall are only resisted by Water/Flying or Grass/Bug. The only Water/Flying you will see around is Gyara and there is no way he'll be staying in on this thing. No grass/bugs will see competitive use anyway...

Rock Slide can be used in place of EQ in fear of Gyara, but has much less power though...

Comments?
 
If you are gonna use it as a gyarados counter, I definitely think you will need some kind of at least neutral attack to hit it with. After Gyara starts DDing, it will probably finish off Poli in not too long.

Poli actually has the best def of all fighting types. He is pretty useful against Tyranitar, resisting rock and dark, and water absorb allows it a lot of switch ins.. I think this could be Poli's best generation yet!

Basically I would use that same set with rockslide over earthquake.. I have no idea why Poli didnt get stone edge..

Have a nice day.
 
Well you'll absolutely need Rock Slide if you're trying to counter Gyarados otherwise it DDs up and Earthquakes you to death. It's still a bit shaky since you need a good deal of defense to take Earthquakes, meaning Rock Slide won't be doing much to Gyarados even without Intimidate.

There's a lot more reliable and overlooked Gyarados counters such as Weezing and PorygonZ.
 
I wouldn't go with PorygonZ, he's about as good at it as Gengar. Porygon2 would be a better choice. :]

You can also put Rock Slide on your Skarmory which tears right through Jumpman's calculations. It can be turned into a reliable 4HKO in Sand Stream with very little EV investment. Starmie is very cool as well because it can now actually switch into Gyarados' main moves (Waterfall and Ice Fang) without having to Recover all the time. Stone Edge CHs are the only way Gyarados gets past a Thunderbolt Starmie cycle...though Starmie will need quite a few Special Attack EVs for Thunderbolt to actually KO Jumpman's Gyarados.

And there's always putting HP Electric on Milotic and Swampert...or Stone Edge Swampert I suppose.
 
I like Bulk Up/Substitute/Focus Punch/Rock Slide Poliwrath, since you can Bulk Up for free in Gyrados' face and hit him with a SE Rock Slide =)
 
the problem with things like poliwrath or specific uu pokemon to counter a certain OU pokemon is that after that its all they can do. For OU the counter has to be able to actually do something in the metagame other then counter that one pokemon.
 
Poliwrath can counter suicune and milotic from advance. Also mentioned above as a Tyranitar counter (with crunch/rock attack).
 
latinoheat makes a good point, so if you are thinking specifically to counter one pokemon thats not a good route. (Although it could be argued that Poliwrath does have the utility and stats to be at least worth a try in OU)
 
Needs more Weezing. I picked up Weezing in 200 because Skarmory was failing against Gyarados (Magneton was ridiculously popular), and it's pretty damn effective. Also makes a handy-dandy Heracross counter.
 
I'm surprised people aren't talking about Dusknoir as a Gyarados counter. Gyarados isn't getting past those defenses easily at all, and Dusknoir can quickly kill it with Thunderpunch.

In addition, Electivire isn't about to do much to Dusknoir either, Electric Engine or no in case you manage to thunderpunch a switched-in Electivire.
 
Also its not a fullproof counter either.

Although it does work to an extent EQ will still be on a majority of Gyarados although it helps that Gyarados lost its STAB HP Flying.
 
Surgo said:
I'm surprised people aren't talking about Dusknoir as a Gyarados counter. Gyarados isn't getting past those defenses easily at all, and Dusknoir can quickly kill it with Thunderpunch.

In addition, Electivire isn't about to do much to Dusknoir either, Electric Engine or no in case you manage to thunderpunch a switched-in Electivire.
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Question is can a max HP / max defense beneficial survive two STAB Waterfalls to kill it with Thunderpunch, and if it can, can Dusknoir running such an EV spread to survive two hits from Gyarados afford the EVs needed to OHKO with Thunderpunch? It takes a fair amount of attack to OHKO with Thunderpunch, Thunder Fang, etc. if it isn't STAB, and you need to take into account Intimidate too.

IMO if what you want is a 2HKO from something that can survive Gyarados then you might want to consider Gliscor.

Gliscor @ Leftovers
Nature: Impish (+Def -SAtk)
Trait: Sand Veil / Hyper Cutter
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
-Ice Fang / Thunder Fang
-Aerial Ace
-Earthquake
-Feather Rest

2HKOs standard Garchomp with Ice Fang or 2HKOs standard Gyarados with Thunder Fang. 2HKOs most Tyranitar with Earthquake. OHKOs Heracross with Aerial Ace. This thing can take hits from all of them with relative ease and Feather Rest off damage. Sand Veil makes CBtar rely on Crunch to hit it, since Stone Edge only has 80ACC. Otherwise CBtar may be able to 2HKO it. Use the Hyper Cutter trait when using Thunder Fang, otherwise Gyarados' Intimidate trait will screw you and you'll fail to 2HKO it. Otherwise Sand Veil is superior.

Just some specific numbers to crunch on regarding this Gliscor set.
403 Attack CB Tyranitar's Crunch = 137 - 162 damage (38.7% - 45.7%) (3HKO)
383 Attack CB Heracross' Megahorn = 97 - 114 damage (27.4% - 32.2%) (4HKO)
383 Attack CB Heracross' Stone Edge = 108 - 128 damage (30.5% - 36.1%) (3-4HKO)
359 Attack Garchomp's Dragon Claw = 82 - 97 damage (23.1% - 27.4%) (4-5HKO)
718 Attack (+2) Garchomp's Dragon Claw = 163 - 191 damage (46.0% - 53.9%) (2-3HKO)
356 Attack Gyarados' Ice Fang = 179 - 211 damage (50.5% - 59.6%) (2-3HKO /w Lefties)
 
He was talking about Electivire as it pertains to switching into Dusknoir and a possible Thunderpunch, not Electivire as it pertains to switching in to Gyarados, which is pretty much suicide.
 
Jumpman16 said:
He was talking about Electivire as it pertains to switching into Dusknoir and a possible Thunderpunch, not Electivire as it pertains to switching in to Gyarados, which is pretty much suicide.
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I thought he was talking about Dusknoir switching in and attempting to kill Gyarados with Thunderpunch, which IMO won't work too well given Dusknoir's low base HP making it need some pretty heavy defensive EVs to do well against it. Dusknoir could potentially 2HKO Gyarados, but in return Gyara can 2HKO Dusknoir with Earthquake or Waterfall.
 
ADH said:
Question is can a max HP / max defense beneficial survive two STAB Waterfalls to kill it with Thunderpunch, and if it can, can Dusknoir running such an EV spread to survive two hits from Gyarados afford the EVs needed to OHKO with Thunderpunch? It takes a fair amount of attack to OHKO with Thunderpunch, Thunder Fang, etc. if it isn't STAB, and you need to take into account Intimidate too.

IMO if what you want is a 2HKO from something that can survive Gyarados then you might want to consider Gliscor.

Gliscor @ Leftovers
Nature: Impish (+Def -SAtk)
Trait: Sand Veil / Hyper Cutter
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
-Ice Fang / Thunder Fang
-Aerial Ace
-Earthquake
-Feather Rest

2HKOs standard Garchomp with Ice Fang or 2HKOs standard Gyarados with Thunder Fang. 2HKOs most Tyranitar with Earthquake. OHKOs Heracross with Aerial Ace. This thing can take hits from all of them with relative ease and Feather Rest off damage. Sand Veil makes CBtar rely on Crunch to hit it, since Stone Edge only has 80ACC. Otherwise CBtar may be able to 2HKO it. Use the Hyper Cutter trait when using Thunder Fang, otherwise Gyarados' Intimidate trait will screw you and you'll fail to 2HKO it. Otherwise Sand Veil is superior.

Just some specific numbers to crunch on regarding this Gliscor set.
403 Attack CB Tyranitar's Crunch = 137 - 162 damage (38.7% - 45.7%) (3HKO)
383 Attack CB Heracross' Megahorn = 97 - 114 damage (27.4% - 32.2%) (4HKO)
383 Attack CB Heracross' Stone Edge = 108 - 128 damage (30.5% - 36.1%) (3-4HKO)
359 Attack Garchomp's Dragon Claw = 82 - 97 damage (23.1% - 27.4%) (4-5HKO)
718 Attack (+2) Garchomp's Dragon Claw = 163 - 191 damage (46.0% - 53.9%) (2-3HKO)
356 Attack Gyarados' Ice Fang = 179 - 211 damage (50.5% - 59.6%) (2-3HKO /w Lefties)
Click to expand...

Love the numbers and the effort, but as far as Gyarados is concerned it will probably have a DD under its best if you're advocating it as a Gyarados counter, so it's only fair to account for that just like you accounted for a Garchomp DD. So, even from my paltry 319 Attack:

Adamant, 319 Attack Gyarados's Dragon Danced Ice Fang on a 354HP/383Def (max/max) Gliscor: 67-79%
Impish, 227 Attack Gliscor's Thunderpunch on a 384HP/235Def (near-max/about half) Gyarados: 48-57%

That, unfortunately for Gliscor, is a 3HKO more often than it is a 2HKO. And let's not forget that Gyarados may have Waterfall, which gives Gliscor a 76% (80% non-flinch with Waterfall × 95% non-miss with Ice Fang) chance of doing max 79% to even 4Evs/min 332HP/194Def Gyarados. Sure, I'm a Gyarados whore through and through but numbers are numbers etc
 
ADH said:
I thought he was talking about Dusknoir switching in and attempting to kill Gyarados with Thunderpunch, which IMO won't work too well given Dusknoir's low base HP making it need some pretty heavy defensive EVs to do well against it. Dusknoir could potentially 2HKO Gyarados, but in return Gyara can 2HKO Dusknoir with Earthquake or Waterfall.
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Those heavy defensive EVs are kind of understood — the Dusclops strategy we wrote up advocated always maxing HP and then pouring the rest into Def or SpD depending on what your team needs. So, to clarify:

Adamant, 383 Attack Gyarados's Earthquake on an Impish, 294HP/405Def (max/max) Dusknoir: 35-41%
Adamant, 383 Attack Gyarados's Waterfall on an Impish, 294HP/405Def (max/max) Dusknoir: 42-49%

And the chances of Dusknoir maxing out its Def all the way are greater than Gyarados maxing out its Attack, so the damage will remain pretty constant if not all the more in Noir's favor, who will likely 2HKO even the bulkiest Gyarados (mine lol) even with a mere 4 Attack EVs:

Impish, 237 Attack Dusknoir's thunderpunch on a 384HP/235Def (near-max/about-half) Gyarados: 50-59%
 
Polywrath is not great at countering Gyarados. From what I have experienced, Earthquake is on most Gyarados, meaning it still has a reliable source of damage against you. As long as they have an Electivire, or a sturdy Ground type, Gyarados cannot be beaten until they are taken out, really. Electrode, or any other fast Pokemon with an Electric attack, can take it out easily, but what you have to keep in mind is that as long as they have a Ground type or Electivire, you cannot harm it. Your best bet, if you are truly worried about Gyarados, would be Baton Passing an Mean Look and a Substitute to an Electrode holding Life Orb. If you cannot pass a Substitute, however, Electrode will be dead, no matter what Attack they use, due to the horrible defenses it possesses. Umbreon can work good for the Baton Passing, seeing how it has workable defenses along with Baton Pass, Substitute and Mean Look.
 
Jumpman16 said:
Love the numbers and the effort, but as far as Gyarados is concerned it will probably have a DD under its best if you're advocating it as a Gyarados counter, so it's only fair to account for that just like you accounted for a Garchomp DD. So, even from my paltry 319 Attack:

Adamant, 319 Attack Gyarados's Dragon Danced Ice Fang on a 354HP/383Def (max/max) Gliscor: 67-79%
Impish, 227 Attack Gliscor's Thunderpunch on a 384HP/235Def (near-max/about half) Gyarados: 48-57%

That, unfortunately for Gliscor, is a 3HKO more often than it is a 2HKO. And let's not forget that Gyarados may have Waterfall, which gives Gliscor a 76% (80% non-flinch with Waterfall × 95% non-miss with Ice Fang) chance of doing max 79% to even 4Evs/min 332HP/194Def Gyarados. Sure, I'm a Gyarados whore through and through but numbers are numbers etc
Click to expand...

Yikes, too true that Gyara could well have a DD under its belt, and those numbers are scary. Gliscor could take on less bulky and more offensive Gyarados, but if you put 384 HP / 235 Def it's usefulness is gone to that extent unfortunately. That Gliscor can still take on CBtar / CBcross / etc. reasonably well, I suppose though that 4x weak to Ice Fang is too much to conquer.

Back to the drawing board as far as a Gyarados counter goes. Problem with countering Gyara is that there's always the threat of Electivire sapping up any electric attacks you send its way, so the best way to take care of it is either a Clear Body / Hyper Cutter / etc. physical rock attack or a special rock attack. Problem is, the main things that could feasibly do it are Gyarados weak, it just has such good coverage of its potential counters barring an Electivire getting a speed up on you before Gyarados can come in and have a ball.

But yeesh, the more I read about bulky Gyarados the better and better it sounds to me for my own teams. I just generally don't like using standards outside of Zapdos, I mean, I even use Lapras for 4x ice resistance and boltbeam in advance.

Speaking of Lapras, it counters the hell out of non-Stone Edge Gyarados.

Lapras @ Leftovers
Nature: Bold (+Def -Atk)
Trait: Water Absorb
EVs: 192 HP / 252 Def / 64 SAtk
-Surf / Hydro Pump
-Thunderbolt
-Ice Beam
-Rest / Protect / Sing

Absorbs Waterfall, 4x resists Ice Fang, and can take Earthquakes rather well with this set. Thunderbolt 2HKOs bulky Gyarados, it just takes too much special attack to OHKO with a non-STAB Thunderbolt (~330 SAtk for slightly less bulky ones) so Lapras could never OHKO unless it used Thunder anyways. Protect affords it some good Leftovers healing while also possibly testing for Stone Edge.
 
If you want to stop Gyarados, why couldn't you just cripple it with TWave from Slowbro?

Edit: I don't know what I was thinking :/
 
Juuken said:
Polywrath is not great at countering Gyarados. From what I have experienced, Earthquake is on most Gyarados, meaning it still has a reliable source of damage against you. As long as they have an Electivire, or a sturdy Ground type, Gyarados cannot be beaten until they are taken out, really. Electrode, or any other fast Pokemon with an Electric attack, can take it out easily, but what you have to keep in mind is that as long as they have a Ground type or Electivire, you cannot harm it. Your best bet, if you are truly worried about Gyarados, would be Baton Passing an Mean Look and a Substitute to an Electrode holding Life Orb. If you cannot pass a Substitute, however, Electrode will be dead, no matter what Attack they use, due to the horrible defenses it possesses. Umbreon can work good for the Baton Passing, seeing how it has workable defenses along with Baton Pass, Substitute and Mean Look.
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No offense but Poliwrath is a more reliable counter than Umbreon (who can be Taunted) and Electrode (who takes more damage from Earthquake than Poliwrath) together. Also saying Gyarados cannot be beaten if it has proper back-up isn't really something that goes for Gyarados alone, or goes for nothing.
 
That Lapras is a good counter, but if I were to use a water type that doesn't get STAB on Thunderbolt I would use a 341+ Speed Starmie with Thunderbolt because it's faster even after a DD, has Recover, and isn't weak to either Stealth Rock or Stone Edge.

Juuken said:
Your best bet, if you are truly worried about Gyarados, would be Baton Passing an Mean Look and a Substitute to an Electrode holding Life Orb. If you cannot pass a Substitute, however, Electrode will be dead, no matter what Attack they use, due to the horrible defenses it possesses. Umbreon can work good for the Baton Passing, seeing how it has workable defenses along with Baton Pass, Substitute and Mean Look.
Click to expand...


That Umbreon is going to need at least 230 speed and Taunt as well, because the standard Gyarados does indeed have Taunt and at least 223 to beat out Jolly Garchomp after a DD, so any attemps by Umbreon to do anything will be rendered useless.

And this is assuming Gyarados is switching into Umbreon — if it's the other way around, as it should be if it's trying to counter Gyarados, it's either facing a 334+ Speed Gyarados with 478+ attack and a Waterfall or Earthquake that will at worst 3HKO (and a risk-free Taunt on the definitely slower Umbreon), or its under the effects of Taunt on the switch and can't do anything while Gyarados DDes.
 
CasMat said:
If you want to stop Gyarados, why couldn't you just cripple it with TWave from Slowbro?
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Because Slowbro is much slower than any Gyarados and can have that TWave Taunted away. Slowbro can't do anything back to Gyarados either since it resists practically its entire special movepool save Psychic and Ice Beam, which does piddly damage against it. Slowbro's better off countering Swords Dance Infernape than trying to do something against Gyarados.
 
Jumpman16 said:
That Lapras is a good counter, but if I were to use a water type that doesn't get STAB on Thunderbolt I would use a 341+ Speed Starmie with Thunderbolt because it's faster, has Recover, and isn't weak to either Stealth Rock or Stone Edge.
Click to expand...

Yeah, Lapras' ice typing hurts more than helps. I really wish that it were mono-water, because it would be the coolest thing ever. Starmie really is a great Pokemon to counter Gyarados.

Would you recommend a more standard Starmie or a more bulky one (still timid) with more HP EVs since Starmie won't get more than a 2HKO on Gyarados anyways? It's rather enlightening, this discussion, I'm learning a lot.

Edit: sorry, double post.
 
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