UU Suspect Discussion - Kingdra

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kokoloko

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Hello UU,

Kingdra has been selected as a suspect for Stage 7. Everyone who plays the tier is welcome to participate in the discussion and express their opinion pertaining to whether or not they believe Kingdra is ban-worthy. All UU Senate members are expected to be actively involved in the discussion.

While this is a debate and you are trying to convince the people voting that Kingdra is / isn't ban-worthy, please do remain civil and have respect for everyone else. I will not hesitate to edit / delete / infract posts that are rude or insulting to other members. I will also not hesitate to delete / infract inane or flat-out stupid posts, either (ie. "Kingdra is only #17 in usage! How could it possibly be broken???"). Also, this should go without saying, but it's happened in the past, so... please refrain from posting if you don't actually play UU. Thanks.

The debate is expected to last anywhere from 1-2 weeks, after which the Senate will convene and vote on the matter. The resulting paragraphs will then be posted in this thread and the verdict will be carried out.

That is all.
 
My opinion: Ban Kingdra

Okay, so I'm sure that everyone who plays UU knows that Rain Dance is kind of ridiculous right now. Or is it....? Out of all the Rain Dance teams I've faced, Kingdra was typically the only super-threatening member because it also works better outside of rain than any other Swift Swim sweeper. Only Empoleon resists its STABs (not counting Ferroseed because Ferroseed sucks), but it's weak to HP Electric and has no reliable recovery so it will be worn down rather quickly. Once Empoleon is gone, it can use its Dragon STAB for Water resists and Water STAB for everything else. As I said before, it also works very well outside of rain. It can use its great bulk to set up Dragon Dance with ease, use Rest + Chesto Berry, and then sweep. It only has a weakness to Dragon, while Flygon is the only other common user of Dragon-type moves so setting up is even easier. Overall, Kingdra is ridiculous due to how destructive it is on Rain teams and how easily it can set up Dragon Dance.
 
Kingdra is not ban worthy in my opinion. True, it is painful to check/counter Kingdra mainly due to the amount of effective sets it can use, either physical or special. But once you know its set, it's not super hard to work around it. It is extremely effective in late game since its checks are probably still alive early and mid game, therefore it requires a good team work between your Pokemon. Kingdra is exceptionally good due to its overall good bulk, access to boosting moves and a practically unresisted STAB combination, but it won't break through well prepared teams just like that. Kingdra alone does not rule the metagame. For these reasons, Kingdra is definetly a top threat in the tier, but not ban worthy
 
My opinion: Do not ban Kingdra

Kingdra does not warrant a ban, simply because there are still Pokemon that check it rather efficiently. Empoleon, Ferroseed, Scarf Flygon, and Scarf Mienshao are some of those Pokemon, the first two eating up its STAB attacks and the latter of the two, outspeeding up to +1 DD variants and revenge killing Kingdra. Kingdra doesn't have tier-breaking bulk either. Sitting at 75/95/95 defenses, it's still vulnerable to priority moves and faster Pokemon. Unboosted variants are more or less disposed of by strong Scarf users in Heracross or Darmanitan, and the special variants still have difficulty with Porygon2 and Snorlax, and any decent player can just heal off the damage Kingdra has caused. With Qwilfish and Cofagrigus making a push for UU, they can eliminate any boosts Kingdra has obtained with Haze, something Milotic also has the ability to do. Crobat can Taunt the Dragon Dance sets, temporarily nullifying a setup. Physical sets lacking a Lum Berry or ChestoRest are also crippled by Sableye's Prankster Will-O-Wisp. In short, there's enough in the UU tier to slow and even stop Kingdra, leaving enough reason for it to remain in the UU tier. It is a force in the UU metagame, but that does not make it "too good" for the UU metagame.
 
Kingdra is ban worthy. With only one weakness and many resistances, sub dragon dance kingdra can be a very big threat in UU. It can set up on literally every wall in the tier and can do the same thing with choice users, which are both always common things on a UU team. The only thing that can hit super effective on it hard is Flygon, but it dies from an put rage if it has a sub up or if it already has a dragon dance up. It is nearly unstoppable after one dragon dance so it should be banned considering there is not one Pokemon in te entire tier that resist both dragon and water type moves.
 
Kingdra has a variety of checks/counters depending on what set it uses and all those checks/counters are quite common, which in my opinion makes me believe it should stay uu. Despite not having reliable recovery, empoleon resits every one of kingdra's moves, bar hp electric, so keep that in mind that there exists a hard counter. First there's the dragon dance set. Slowbro is a pretty hard counter, thanks to its resistance to water type moves, great physical bulk, regenerator, and reliable healing; it takes on physical variants quite easily. Than there's milotic, who when fully invested in physical defense, takes nothing from kingdra's moves. Milotic can either phase it out with dragon tail or nullify the boosts with haze, from then it can use ice beam to break the sub and wear kingdra down. Next there's suicune, it can take a hit roar kingdra away and slowly break it down. Finally there's blastoise, who can cripple kingdra with scald burn/toxic or roar it out. Next is the one people seem to be complaining about the most, the rain dance sweeper. Again, countered by milotic. Fully invested in special defense none of the moves can do shit. Roserade, the most common pokemon in the tier can check special kingdra fairly easily and destroy it with STAB grass attacks. Shaymin also makes a decent check being able, to tank a hit then do some serious damage in return. Snorlax, porygon2, and umbreon are all great special walls that can check this kingdra set quite easily. The last set is choice specs. The set IMO is the most difficult to counter, but it has quite a few flaws. First of all, it's locked into one move, second it can be revenge killed by flygon and roserade. This set is countered by both snorlax and milotic who both can tank a DM and recover of the damage with rest and recover respectively. There are so many checks/counters in each set and if you can't be bothered running any of these pokemon on your team, you're doing something wrong. I say don't ban.
 
I personally don't think Kingdra is broken in UU at them moment. However, I do think that the thing people fear most is actually its versatility. Because Kingdra can run so many sets, it can be difficult to deal with it until you figure out what set it is running - and by that time, it may already be too late. But here is the key to taking down Kingdra: Figuring out what set it is running. As good and powerful as Kingdra may be, it can't run every set at the same time, and therefore has checks and counters for each individual set. Some Pokemon such as Roar Suicune can take on multiple variants of DD Kingdra. Unfortunately, it gets absolutely wrecked by the Rain Dance variant, which easily 2HKOes it with Draco Meteor. With some smart switching and smart play, you can easily take down Kingdra. The Life Orb variants are more easily worn down, but they hit harder. So, for example, switching between a Steel-type to take the Outrages and something like Suicune to take Waterfalls can easily wear it down into revenge kill range. Of course, not every team will necessarily carry a bulky Steel-type or something that can take Waterfall, but honestly, if you aren't prepared to deal with Kingdra in some way, then you don't have a very good team. Every set is susceptible to one thing or another, especially as Kingdra only has Rest for recovery. Yes, it can use a Chesto Berry, but this makes it very weak initially (it only has base 95 offenses...), especially since this variant usually invests in bulk for the ease of setting up. This makes ChestoRest Kingdra very inefficient against bulky offense teams. This is just one example of how Kingdra can be dealt with. There are tons of ways to deal with Kingdra; as long as you can correctly figure out what set it is running, you can go from there and deal with it appropriately.
 
Kingdra is a balanced part of the metagame.

There are FOUR things we should discuss when talking about whether Kingdra is suspect: Threat level before set-up, ease of set-up, potential damage caused after set-up, and unpredictability.

First, threat level before set-up. Kingdra is not very good without set-up when compared to other premier UU threats (see: Flygon, Chandelure, Darmantian). Even its Choice Specs set has to rely on good prediction with its STABs, and has problems with bulky waters with recovery (Milotic, Slowking, even Slowbro at times) and specially-defensive Pokemon in general.

Next, ease of set-up. Kingdra has good bulk (about as much as Nidoqueen), which allows it to take powerful attacks and still use Dragon Dance / Rain Dance. It also has fortuitous typing, which offers it excellent resistances and exceptional offensive STABs. Kingdra finds it very easy to set up.

Next, potential damage caused after set-up. This is where Kingdra falters a bit. Despite good typing and bulk, base 95 offensive stats often leave Kingdra in an awkward position against bulky offense teams. The ChestoRest set, for example, cannot ohko offensive Shaymin even with +1 Outrage. Further, it cannot outrun fast offensive Pokemon such as Crobat and Weavile, and certainly cannot outrun Scarfers. The special Rain Dance set has no problem with speed, and has a powerful STAB Hydro Pump, but it has to rely on Draco Meteor to punch through bulky water resists. The reliance on such an unreliable move, particularly against Pokemon with recovery (for example, Roserade can take a hit and immediately rest, leaving Kingdra in a very bad position), can leave Kingdra unable to sweep after causing very little damage to the opposing team. The offensive Dragon Dance set has no problems with power and has fewer problems with speed than the ChestoRest set, but takes far more damage during set-up, is more vulnerable to status moves, and has to be wary of priority moves. While it may be that the sum of every potential set Kingdra can run makes it seem insurmountable, it should be apparent that every set has its own weaknesses.

Finally, we have unpredictability. Kingdra is certainly unpredictable, being able to attack from both sides of the spectrum. However, there are several Pokemon in UU that can handle all its sets reasonably well. Empoleon, Porygon2, Slowking, Registeel, defensive Shaymin, Milotic, and Escavalier serve as relatively hard counters. In addition, every individual set has a plethora of checks and counters specific to that set, which certainly shouldn't be discounted. While Kingdra is more unpredictable than, say, Darmantian, it actually has a larger number of Pokemon that can safely switch into it, simply because its offensive stats are relatively low, and because its Dragon STABs are fairly weak or unreliable.

Kingdra was a much stronger suspect a few metagames ago, but hell, so was Mew. If you compare it to Mew, you will understand why it is not nearly unpredictable or powerful enough to warrant a ban.
 
I'm on the fence on whether to ban Kingdra or not.

There are three types of Kingdra variants that you will encounter: DD, Specs, or Rain Dance.

First off, Dragon Dance Kingdras are the least threatening (in my opinion). Usually, these can be defeated by anything somewhat bulky with offensive presence. Pokemon like Download Porygon2 or Tangrowth can defeat it one on one. A lot of bulky waters like Slowking, Slowbro, and Milotic can also beat both the ChestoResto and SubDD Kingdras. The reason why the DD sets are the least effective are because they are the most common (many people assume Kingdra is physical when first seeing it) and because there are many counters to it. It's two resistances are useful, but the neutrality of every other type (Raikou's Thunderbolt, Slowbro's Psychic, Shaymin's Seed Flare, etc.) makes it harder for Kingdra to set up than we make it out to be. So, I think that the DD sets are not broken.

The second set, Specs Kingdra, relies on people's assumptions that Kingdra is usually physical. Usual switch-ins to Kingdra like Slowbro, Tangrowth are absolutely demolished by Draco Meteor. Other pokemon like Porygon2 are reliably 2HKOed by Hydro Pump, while the other two moveslots are mostly just fillers. However, Specs Kingdra is not broken in any way; it is meant to break walls. Sitting at just 269 Speed and usually being at -2 after a Draco Meteor, Specs Kingdra can easily be revenge killed by Flygon, Mienshao, or Raikou. It even allows the setup of pokemon like Cobalion, Bisharp, and the aforementioned Raikou. Plus, since this Kingdra doesn't even have Leftovers recovery, it is easily worn down. Entry hazards (especially Toxic Spikes) and attacks aimed at it on the switch can make Specs Kingdra's lifespan relatively short. In no way is this Kingdra broken.

Finally, we come to the arguable best set of Kingdra's, its Rain Dance set:

Kingdra @ Life Orb
Trait: Swift Swim
EVs: 164 Spd / 88 HP / 4 SDef / 252 SAtk
Modest Nature
- Rain Dance
- Draco Meteor
- Hydro Pump
- Dragon Pulse

This is the standard set, meant to outspeed Scarf Base 100's after a Rain Dance. Like the Choice Specs set, the Rain Dance set can hit hard right off the bat. But in addition, it can outspeed its normal revenge killers with simply one turn of setup. Usually, Kingdra finds opportunities by either scaring out things like Arcanine or Gligar (who fear another set) or switching into choice-locked moves like Darmanitan's Flare Blitz or Victini's V-Create. From there, Kingdra can either rip holes into the opposing team with Draco Meteor or clean up with Hydro Pump and Dragon Pulse. What's dangerous about this set is it's resistance to being revenge killed. Scarf Mienshao can outspeed, but this can be overcome by transferring some HP EVs to Speed. This leaves the only viable revenge killers to be Scarf Raikou (which only does 56% max), Scarf Azelf (50% max), or even Scarf Cinccino (65% max). Priority is another option with something like Bisharp (55% max) or CB Arcanine (50% max). Plus, with the banning of all weather starters, its rain is sure to stay. Evidently, this set for Kingdra is a great balance between power and bulk, but also granting it loads of speed using only a turn of setup. It can break walls and can also take down fast offensive threats too. It's viable counters (meaning Ferroseed isn't included) are a short list: Empoleon (who doesn't do much back), Milotic, Umbreon, Slowking.

By the way, those damage calculations are assuming the standard spread. Using a modified spread to outspeed Scarf Mienshao (196 Spd / 252 SAtk / 60 HP):
Raikou: 48.36 - 57.18%
Azelf: 43.46 - 51.3%
Cinccino: 56.2 - 66.66%
Bisharp: 47.38 - 56.2%
CB Arcanine: 43.79 - 51.63%

I think that what's most dangerous about facing Kingdra in general is its unpredictability. It's capable of running very different physical and special sets that are only easy to deal with once you find out the set, much like Mew's case (when it was in UU). For that reason, Kingdra only has (I might be mistaken) two complete counters: Milotic and Slowking. Both can handle all of Kingdra's moves and phaze/deal significant damage with Dragon Tail. People, stop listing Empoleon as a counter, because it loses to DD Kingdra when Kingdra is the last pokemon.

After all this, I still can't come to a complete conclusion as to whether Kingdra is broken. Right now, I'm thinking that it's comparable to Mew, who is unpredictable but manageable once the set is revealed. For this reason, I'm saying right now to not ban Kingdra, but I could change my mind.
 
I don't have a huge, eloquent argument nor am I terribly good at forming them (hence why I'm no Senator) but I'll throw in my two cents.

I think FlareBlitz pretty much hit the nail on the head with Kingdra. Kingdra can be pretty threatening at times but not insurmountably so. It has a handful of more or less hard counters (Dragon Tail Milotic and Empoleon are especially good), which is never a good sign for something to be outright broken. Looking past those, individual sets have many valid responses - many bulky waters can handle the DDer decently; Specs can be played around even without a Snorlax or Bronzong to sponge heavy hits; Scarf Flygon cleans up anything but the Rain Dancer or a Kingdra with multiple boosts...

Basically, what I'm trying to say is that Kingdra is threatening but handle able. It's not a "carry two counters" Uber like 4th gen Chomp, it is roughly as good as the rest of the metagame and isn't unbeatable.

Only Empoleon resists its STABs (not counting Ferroseed because Ferroseed sucks), but it's weak to HP Electric and has no reliable recovery so it will be worn down rather quickly.
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A Specs HP Electric isn't a terribly good move to lock yourself into, and the existence of the move doesn't really make Empoleon a much less effective switch in. If you're running Specs Kingdra, you certainly aren't going to open with a blind HP Electric, and Empoleon is a viable switch in for many other Kingdra sets.
 
I dunno if Kingdra is quite broken, which seems silly considering I was practically pouting for it to be suspected D:, but try to keep an open mind to what I say in any case.

Imagine just for a moment an offensive Pokemon that before set up will not be reliably OHKOd by any unboosted in the tier it is in except from super effective moves. Then realize it is only weak to one type that is typically carried by, ironically itself and just one other Pokemon.

Picture now a Pokemon that after a single turn of set up can outspeed the entire tier it resides in while also boosting its offenses to the point where it can practically OHKO every single primarily offensive Pokemon with a touch of hazard support.

Would you believe it if I told you that in UU a Pokemon was so versatile that it can easily run nearly half a dozen unique and useful sets attacking either physically or specially? A counter for one set might be OHKOd if another set is used or, perhaps even worse, easily set up on.

Use your imagination just a little bit more comrades, because now I ask you to think of a Pokemon that exerts such an influence on the game it creates new sets for other Pokemon. It even brings what would be a primarily outclassed Pokemon into usage just so it can "more reliably" counter it.

This Pokemon has an unfairly powerful match up against would be counters, its typing allowing to beat widely used walls even if they are supposed to wall the spectrum it attacks from.

If this Pokemon existed, would you at least give fair consideration to banning it?

Kingdra will not be OHKOd by any unboosted move surviving things like Scarf Mienshao's Hi-Jumpkick only falling to super effective Dragon moves which consists only of Flygon and itself, Kingdra.

After a single Rain Dance Kingdra can outspeed the fastest common Choice Scarf user, Mienshao while still being able to OHKO specially bulky Pokemon that are primarily offensive, such as Zapdos with Hydro Pump and Roserade with Draco Meteor.

Kingdra can run more sets than most any UU Pokemon, including Substitute Dragon Dance, offensive Dragon Dance, Rain Dance, Chesto Rest and Choice Specs. Slowbro may beat Substitute users usually but falls to Choice Specs in a single Draco Meteor. This means Kingdra has no true counters in UU.

Slowking is used in UU only because it is a reliable Kingdra counter (although Kingdra can still beat it in a last Pokemon scenario), its analysis says as much. Slowbro otherwise almost completely outclasses it. Scarf Azelf is used occasionally even though it would be for the most part worse than Scarf Mienshao/Victini/Darmanitan/Flygon just because it can outspeed Kingdra in Rain, it is otherwise a much worse revenge killer.

Dragon/Water allows Kingdra to bypass Gligar with ease and Slowbro as a Dragon Pokemon as it gets Draco Meteor. Dragon also grants Slowbro Outrage which can bypass Slowbro with a Chesto Berry or even if slightly weakened offensive Dragon Dance.
 
Really? Don't ban it? Are you kidding me? The only counter that can reliably switch in on it is empoleon. If it's under rain it's basically unstoppable and can dragon dance on any pkmn and set up an unstoppable sweep. @ Pokemazter , 1st off no one uses scarf mienshao. Second, would still be outpaced with a scarf by Kingdra under rain, even with a jolly nature and would be hard pressed to switch in. Even if scarf mienshao was used, it would still be outpaced under rain and would have trouble switching in due to frailty. You could switch in, but seriously what's it gonna do to it? Gyro Ball ?Leech seed?it would eventually power through it with dragon dance or rain boosted water type moves. Honestly, moving it to OU would give it another counter * ahem* Ferrothorn. Besides it has amazing typing, and even outside rain it would find no trouble accumulating dragon dance boosts. Plus moving it to OU would give it 2 more counters other than Ferrothorn, scarf jolly Latios and Latias, since people, typically don't use a speed boosting nature on a set with rain support. I undetstand that 95 in both attacking stats isn't doing it any favors, but factor in rain, ease of dragon dance boosting, and choice specs. It also has powerful stab options in Draco meteor, Hydro pump, Outrage, Surf, Dragon Pulse. Again it's only weakness being dragons and which even with scarfs on are still outpaced by kingdra. There is also the issue of versatility, with many viable sets like choice specs, Dragon dance, Chesto rest, substitute, Mixed life orb, Rain Dance. In other words its likely to catch a couple of pkmn off guard. Long story short Kingdra is a very threatening pkmn, and I think it should be banned. ~ Dinnerblaster
 
I think someone is overexaggerating on Kingdra a bit.

hilarious said:
Kingdra will not be OHKOd by any unboosted move surviving things like Scarf Mienshao's Hi-Jumpkick only falling to super effective Dragon moves which consists only of Flygon and itself, Kingdra.

Unfortunately, there exist bulky Pokemon that can take a hit and destroy a certain Kingdra. Although they need a Choice Band or Life Orb, something super powerful like Escavalier holding a Choice Band spells the end for Kingdra. Several Pokemon are also capable of 2HKOing it that are offensive such as Snorlax. While the unboosted metagame struggles, the Pokemon that hold an item triumph eventually.

After a single Rain Dance Kingdra can outspeed the fastest common Choice Scarf user, Mienshao while still being able to OHKO specially bulky Pokemon that are primarily offensive, such as Zapdos with Hydro Pump and Roserade with Draco Meteor.

While a Rain Dance Kingdra does do well against offensive teams, the only Zapdos it will OHKO are Zapdos with no bulk invested (if Kingdra is Timid and has a Life Orb). In addition, bulky offensive Pokemon and most other water-types with some non-Scald move and wear it down. While it doesn't have many weaknesses, its resistances are a bit lacking. Also, Draco Meteor means Kingdra has to switch out, which is a lot of Rain Dance turns gone to loss.

Kingdra can run more sets than most any UU Pokemon, including Substitute Dragon Dance, offensive Dragon Dance, Rain Dance, Chesto Rest and Choice Specs. Slowbro may beat Substitute users usually but falls to Choice Specs in a single Draco Meteor. This means Kingdra has no true counters in UU.

Vesatile =\= Broken. I mean, look at Emboar in NU, Infernape in OU, Arceus in Ubers, etc. All three can take on everything to the point where nothing is reliably safe against it, but each individual set has Pokemon that can take it down.

Slowking is used in UU only because it is a reliable Kingdra counter (although Kingdra can still beat it in a last Pokemon scenario), its analysis says as much. Slowbro otherwise almost completely outclasses it. Scarf Azelf is used occasionally even though it would be for the most part worse than Scarf Mienshao/Victini/Darmanitan/Flygon just because it can outspeed Kingdra in Rain, it is otherwise a much worse revenge killer.

Scarf Azelf has an awesome 125 Special Attack, while Slowking has other purposes (Chandelure, Nidoking, etc.) to use it. If they only wanted to take down Kingdra, then they would probably use Scarf Raikou rather than Azelf, since it can take a hit. These Pokemon aren't used only to take down Kingdra!

Dragon/Water allows Kingdra to bypass Gligar with ease and Slowbro as a Dragon Pokemon as it gets Draco Meteor. Dragon also grants Slowbro Outrage which can bypass Slowbro with a Chesto Berry or even if slightly weakened offensive Dragon Dance.

While this is true (and misworded), Kingdra just really doesn't have the stats to do both. Draco Meteor and Outrage are both powerful moves, but its 95 base attack stat doesn't do it great favors without a boost. If it has Outrage, it will unlikely have Draco Meteor unless it has a suprise value to it.
Click to expand...

Comments in not-bold. I agree with Flareblitz on the whole, but I'm not really sure how to judge Kingdra otherwise. It is truly frightening and has a lot of ways to screw a lot of stuff over, but at the same time, 95 base attacking stats are a little low, and 85 speed is a little dissapointing. It has a lot of pluses, but its strengths don't make it all-too overwhelming, and once the set has been discovered, how to defeat Kingdra becomes revealed.
 
I'm not convinced by any of these arguments that Kingdra is broken. For one, lack of hard counters =/= broken. Kingdra's unpredictability is one of the major factors that make it such a threatening pokemon, because all of the different sets it can run typically don't share the same checks / counters, but once you find out its set it becomes much easier to deal with. Also, there are a few pokemon that make good switch-ins to all of its sets, primarily Slowking, Empoleon, and Milotic.

When you look at each set separately, they all have clear faults that greatly hinder their effectiveness. The ChestoRest set, for example, suffers greatly against bulky offense teams, failing to KO pokemon such as Swampert, Lax, and Shaymin after a boost, and it is easily revenge killed by common users of Choice Scarf. The Rain Dance set doesn't have the Speed issues that the ChestoRest has, but in order to be effective it has to rely on Draco Meteor and Hydro Pump, two moves that have imperfect accuracies and the former having the nasty drawback of lowering Kingdra's Special Attack two stages, which will force Kingdra to switch out on the following turn. Bulky Waters with high Special Defense (mainly Slowking and Milotic) have no problem absorbing a Draco Meteor and recovering the damage off. The offensive DD set is essentially a more powerful, but less durable version of the ChestoRest set. It suffers the same Speed issues but has less trouble getting through bulky offensive mons like Shaymin. However, being locked into Outrage is more consequential here since you don't have Rest or Lum Berry to recover, and the damage it takes from its time setting up will accumulate quickly. Being susceptible to status also hurts it a lot. The Choice Specs set is the only set Kingdra can run that actually poses a threat without any setup, but it has the same drawbacks as the Rain Dance set; essentially, bulky waters with recovery, Snorlax, and Umbreon.

Kingdra is what I'd consider a very good offensivemon, but its unpredicability and typing can only take it so far. All of its sets share one huge weakness: it needs to use moves like Outrage and Draco Meteor, which immediately put it at a disadvantage after use, to deal significant damage to anything. In addition, barring the Choice Specs set, setup is also required before Kingdra can pose a threat to most teams.
 
So, like cim, I'm really bad at this sort of thing. However, I'll try as well.

Kindra can play a threat in UU, but without, say, a DD or Rain up, it can easily be finished by scarf users like Flygon, or pre-boosted pokes. Even if it has a boost, it doesn't mean it can't be K.Oed. Pokes without least good defenses can survive a hit. It's biggest threat in my opinion is the versatility (right word?). Having something in expecting an Outrage or DD and suddenly eating a Hydro pump is not fun.
In the end, I find that Kingdra is more effective in OU than UU as a rain team counter, but is definitely counter-able in UU.
Final opinion: Don't ban.
 
Kingdra is fantastic, no doubt there. The amount of roles it can run while still remaining viable in every single one is no small feet. However I think there is a fine line between Broken and Kingdra. The main reason people believe Kingdra is ban worthy is it's solid power, lack of true counters, and array of sets it can run. However I think people are exaggerating what Kingdra can do. Although it is impossible to straight up counter Kingdra, it does have a variety of checks in the tier. This can range from Empoleon, Choice Scarf Flygon and Mienshao, to stuff like Escaliver. Despite Kingdra's bulky stats, acceptable attacking stats, rather good typing, it can just as easily be checked.

If we look at the flaws of the common sets, we notice that with each one, it's problems get rearranged. The most common one, ChestoRest, suffers from little power even after a Dragon Dance. Failing to take out most bulky threats such as Snorlax and Shaymin. Any type of bulky offense will tank and retaliate against Kingdra while it struggles to OHKO any of your members if they are in good health. Even then, speed issues allow it to be revenged by the most common scarf users in the tier. Choice Specs sets are very deadly with STAB Draco Meteor and Hydro Pump but requires a lot of prediction. Once Kingdra decides to use Draco Meteor it will lose it's power and be forced to switch out. If entry hazards are on the field then this shortens Kingdra's effectiveness even more considering it is vulnerable to every one. Despite not needing to set up, this set will need to switch out often and gives drawback. Bulky waters and Snorlax can both take these moves and Recover the damage off, ready to take a hit another day. The Rain Dance set follows similar lines, but still relies on Draco Meteor and Hydro Pump to do the damage it needs to do. Once Draco Meteor is used Kingdra loses most of it's power, making bulky waters and Snorlax Recover off any damage done. Despite being incredibly dangerous in and out of rain, Kingdra still suffers from hazards, LO Recoil, and low accuracy moves. SubDD is the final set, which gives more speed and more power but lacks in defensive purposes. This set will get revenged by Flygon and Mienshao just as easy, but luckily it does have Substitute to potentially block them off for the time being. If this set is locked into Outrage it will have trouble getting back on it's feet if the opponent has a steel, or it can just kill itself with confusion.

I feel Kingdra should not be banned, but should be treated like a serious threat no matter what. It is one of those natural threats in the metagame that you need to deal with. It is part of the metagame and considering the recent actions of UU, I feel the it is a pretty calm and balanced metagame. If people would realize it is not exactly stand out broken ( or broken at all ). The main argument people are using to defend Kingdra are lack of real counters, fantastic after set up, and ability to be unpredictable. As Flare has stated, Kingdra can be checked and rather decently handled by the Pokemon stated. Not every set shares the same checks, but all sets can be beaten. Just because one set can beat one sets typical counter does not mean the entire Pokemon is broken. The type is great and allows it to retain a bulky sweeper status, but it's limited attack stats power mean it can only deal so much damage with or without set up ( including rain dance ). While once Kingdra's set is found out, it will likely be handled appropriately. It can only bluff or hide for so long. Kingdra may be a good Pokemon, but it is not broken.
 
Kingdra's trump card is his unpredictability, which makes him impossible to straight up counter, but once you managed to find out what set he's running, he becomes MUCH more beatable.

Many bulky Waters like Suicune, Swampert and Milotic are able to take a boosted hit and phaze him away, and even after one Dragon Dance, common scarfers like Heracross and Flygon still outspeed him. He's also vulnerable to priority moves, like Extremespeed from Arcanine or Sucker Punch from Honchkrow.

So, in my humble opinion, Kingdra could be a millimetre away, but he's not broken.
 
Kingdra is a top tier threat in UU that should be taken seriously at all times. Is it broken? Well...

Let's start with the good. Kingdra is unpredictable & dangerous due to amount of viable sets it can run, which means that on the very first turn it switches in, Kingdra can force you a player into sacrificing a Pokemon to determine its set. That is Kingdra's best quality imo since it can really screw over the opponents team and potentially win the match.
Examples of this include:
  • Thinking its Specs and switching Snorlax into a potential Draco Meteor, but instead its Dragon Dance, or switching into a "dead" pokemon so you can revenge kill it with Scarf Flygon or w/e and having Kingdra set up a Rain Dance.
Both of its Dradon Dance sets have no problem setting up on common physical walls (Slowbro, Gligar, Bronzong) and they actually turn them into a liability and are incredible powerful once set up. They're incredible sets, but they aren't perfect. Kingdra isn't really threatening before it sets up a Dragon Dance (unboosted waterfall is weak, and DD Kingdra's rarely use unboosted outrage before setting up since it nearly guarantees that kingdra will die.) Kingdra actually has trouble setting up on the majority of the offensive Pokemon in the tier, so its basically relegated to walls and choiced fire attackers. If you know its running DD, you're not likely to switch out whatever offensive Pokemon you're currently using (as opposed to something like say Raikou, who will almost always force a switch). Even at +1, Outrage isn't can't OHKO things like Swampert / Shaymin (as well as Cobalion if its locked on Outrage) and can be revenge killed by common scarfers. Choice Specs Kingdra is threatening right off the bat, and it can punch holes into offensive teams, but at best its merely a strong special attacker. Its suboptimal speed and like of speed boost makes it easier to check in general, and on top of that Choice Specs Kingdra has actual counters (Snorlax, SpD Umbreon, etc). Admittedly, Kingdra's Rain set is harder to get a handle on the than the previous sets, but its flawed in that it needs to use Draco Meteor to target water resists, which cuts its sweeping potential, and like DD it can't really set up on most offensive teams as easily (again, outside of choiced fire types) without taking a huge chunk of damage.

My intention isn't too discredit Kingdra though, its by far one of the best UU pokemon (top 5 easy) and is very difficult to deal with in the hands of a pro. The beauty of Kingdra is that regardless of what set you're running, you can typically lure out the "wrong" checks & counters which can give you a huge advantage,

The gist of Kingdra's shortcomings have been more or less said before, but mostly:

-Fairly slow, even after a Dragon Dance boost
-Isn't that threatening without a boost / without Choice specs

I could probably go on for more, but those are two of Kingdra's problems that keep it from relentlessly dominating the metagame.

So imo Kingdra is not broken. (Top tier threat? You better believe it buster)
 
Me (bolded) and Swamp-Rocket said:
Kingdra will not be OHKOd by any unboosted move surviving things like Scarf Mienshao's Hi-Jumpkick only falling to super effective Dragon moves which consists only of Flygon and itself, Kingdra.

Unfortunately, there exist bulky Pokemon that can take a hit and destroy a certain Kingdra. Although they need a Choice Band or Life Orb, something super powerful like Escavalier holding a Choice Band spells the end for Kingdra. Several Pokemon are also capable of 2HKOing it that are offensive such as Snorlax. While the unboosted metagame struggles, the Pokemon that hold an item triumph eventually.

After a single Rain Dance Kingdra can outspeed the fastest common Choice Scarf user, Mienshao while still being able to OHKO specially bulky Pokemon that are primarily offensive, such as Zapdos with Hydro Pump and Roserade with Draco Meteor.

While a Rain Dance Kingdra does do well against offensive teams, the only Zapdos it will OHKO are Zapdos with no bulk invested (if Kingdra is Timid and has a Life Orb). In addition, bulky offensive Pokemon and most other water-types with some non-Scald move and wear it down. While it doesn't have many weaknesses, its resistances are a bit lacking. Also, Draco Meteor means Kingdra has to switch out, which is a lot of Rain Dance turns gone to loss.

Kingdra can run more sets than most any UU Pokemon, including Substitute Dragon Dance, offensive Dragon Dance, Rain Dance, Chesto Rest and Choice Specs. Slowbro may beat Substitute users usually but falls to Choice Specs in a single Draco Meteor. This means Kingdra has no true counters in UU.

Vesatile =\= Broken. I mean, look at Emboar in NU, Infernape in OU, Arceus in Ubers, etc. All three can take on everything to the point where nothing is reliably safe against it, but each individual set has Pokemon that can take it down.

Slowking is used in UU only because it is a reliable Kingdra counter (although Kingdra can still beat it in a last Pokemon scenario), its analysis says as much. Slowbro otherwise almost completely outclasses it. Scarf Azelf is used occasionally even though it would be for the most part worse than Scarf Mienshao/Victini/Darmanitan/Flygon just because it can outspeed Kingdra in Rain, it is otherwise a much worse revenge killer.

Scarf Azelf has an awesome 125 Special Attack, while Slowking has other purposes (Chandelure, Nidoking, etc.) to use it. If they only wanted to take down Kingdra, then they would probably use Scarf Raikou rather than Azelf, since it can take a hit. These Pokemon aren't used only to take down Kingdra!

Dragon/Water allows Kingdra to bypass Gligar with ease and Slowbro as a Dragon Pokemon as it gets Draco Meteor. Dragon also grants Slowbro Outrage which can bypass Slowbro with a Chesto Berry or even if slightly weakened offensive Dragon Dance.

While this is true (and misworded), Kingdra just really doesn't have the stats to do both. Draco Meteor and Outrage are both powerful moves, but its 95 base attack stat doesn't do it great favors without a boost. If it has Outrage, it will unlikely have Draco Meteor unless it has a suprise value to it.
Click to expand...

You said earlier I was exaggerating, let me tell you now every statement I typed is a fact. But please let me address your concerns more specifically.

If I am correct, and I bet I am, you push aside Kingdra's bulk as an argument to its brokeness because it can still be KO'd by something "super powerful" even though they still "need a Choice band or Life Orb". I think your statement actually helps the case of Kingdra's ban - you yourself say to OHKO Kingdra you need not only something super powerful but also needs a high power boosting item. Teams should carry those sort of Pokemon not to take down an offensive Pokemon but to take down walls. Sure you are right that some Pokemon can take down Kingdra in a couple of hits but then you fail to recognize that not only can Kingdra outspeed them after a boost but also OHKO them. Offensive Snorlax, arguably a poster boy for bulky offense, is promptly OHKOd by an offensive DD Kingdra's boosted Outrage. As is max HP Swampert. As is offensive Shaymin. As is even a fairly physically defensive Zapdos. All Kingdra asks for is the common battle condition of Stealth Rock.

You use an example with Timid RD Kingdra which is never used. If you use Modest and Hydro Pump you have a fair shot at OHKOing the most specially defensive Zapdos. But even if you do choose to run Timid, just for the sake of argument, you can still OHKO physically defensive Zapdos with Surf. Draco Meteor does mean Kingdra has to switch out but being able to OHKO offensive Roserade easily and Shaymin sometimes means Kingdra just got a kill likely. Something is wrong if you have to sack a Pokemon with good special bulk just to force Kingdra out. Draco Meteor does not actually mean Kingdra must switch out, if the opponents team is weakened then a -2 Kingdra may still sweep in the Rain because of speed. Your opponent will still be slower than you most likely and you can for instance still do over 50% to Zapdos with Surf.

I do not play NU or Ubers but I can safely say Infernape is pretty badly messed up by Tentacruel about 100% of the time. Regardless I failed to mention all the implications of having so many sets. Not only can nothing reliably switch into Kingdra but nothing can actually safely revenge kill Kingdra. Ditto fails if Kingdra has no boosts but has a sub up. Fast Scarfers fail if Kingdra has Rain. Priority fails if its not strong or if Kingdra has a sub up. The mere fact that the "safest" way of handling Kingdra is revenging it is alarming, you have to be put in a losing situation first.

Scarf Azelf is mainly physical but I get your point about 125 (special/physical) attack. Mienshao, Darmanitan and Victini still hit harder while still getting U-Turn meaning they really are better than Azelf except for the loss to RD Kingdra. Scarf Raikou is almost always Rash to get Aura Sphere and fails to outrun Kingdra in Rain. Slowking is a terrible Chandelure counter (Shadow Ball?) and mediocre Nidoking counter because some carry Thunderbolt. Slowking truly fails to beat basically every single special attacker because of its unfortunate typing which means Slowbro really is a lot better than it. Slowking's on site UU analysis makes it pretty clear one of its only niches in UU is countering Kingdra - it cannot even do that properly if Kingdra is offensive DD.

Interestingly Slowking's typing is as much as his downfall as Kingdra's typing is his great friend. I'm sorry if my wording was awkward before but let me expand on it now. Because Kingdra is Water/Dragon it is able to beat many physical defenders even if it is using a physical attacking set. Gligar is one of the tiers physical walls, and is obliterated by Waterfall. Defensive Arcanine is in the same boat. Water allows Kingdra to also beat Bronzong by resisting his Gyro Ball. Dragon typing grants Kingdra a STAB Outrage which is absurdly powerful after a boost. It allows Kingdra to destroy bulky waters in two hits while they struggle to do anything to Kingdra outside of a weak Ice Beam. Swampert can actually fall to a single hit. Dragon/Water is such a powerful typing because it allows Kingdra to destroy walls that could otherwise wall it. It also allows Kingdra to set up on the many Choiced Fires that plague the game and should also be promptly banned, just kidding. Darmanitan, Victini and Chandelure cannot launch their (main) STAB moves unless they want to invite a possible game changing sweep. No other offensive Pokemon can take those insanely powerful attacks, not to mention Kingdra has its bulk too to set up on a weaker attack.

I think everything I said is 100% true but won't convince some of you because you demand a higher standard to label a Pokemon broken. For an offensive Pokemon, isn't good bulk, amazing typing, pure unpredictability and - essentially unwallable power a high enough standard?
 
I suppose it's time for me to express my thoughts on the subject.

Here's the thing, Kingdra is one of those few Pokemon that when I first see on the opponent's side of the field gives me that "ugh I have no fucking clue what to switch to now" feeling. The reason for this is simple--unpredictability. The fact that Kingdra has the typing, movepool, and balanced offensive stats to hit hard from both sides makes it really hard to switch into. Obviously, if you know its set beforehand you can just go to your Cobalion to beat Dragon Dancers or your Snorlax to beat Rain Dance / Specs sets. The problem is, you don't know--it's not like Kingdra hangs a sign around its neck saying "hey I'm going to Specs Draco Meteor!".

That being said, it's my opinion that Kingdra has all but one of the traits that would usually push an unpredictable Pokemon over that 'broken' line--immediate power--the trait that broke Salamence in DPP OU. Unlike Salamence's Draco Meteor, Kingdra's wont outright demolish everything in its path, so you can switch your say... Slowbro into it and won't outright lose your physical wall (granted, Rengenerator helps a ton).

I could have probably used better examples throughout but I honestly can't be fucked to do so at the moment. It really is that simple to me, though, Kingdra just lacks the immediate power that would otherwise break it. It also doesn't put too much of a strain on teambuilding because while it has no perfect switchins, there's a couple Pokemon that can switch into all variants semi-reliably (think Porygon2 and Slowking). On top of that, due to the way battles actually play out, you can usually afford to play around it until you figure out its set and then go to a proper check (although I guess this is derived from its lack of immediate power).

So yeah at the moment I'm definitely leaning towards no ban. I could still change my mind but that seems unlikely.
 
My opinion: Do Not Ban

While it is true that Kingdra has great typing and good offensive stats, the simply fact is that dedicated walls stop it in its tracks.. It's best options against bulky waters are HP Electric and HP Grass; If electric is chosen, bulky Swampert stops it cold, while HP Grass allows bulky Empoleon to wall it completely.
There is also the problem that, unless Choice Specs is chosen, its offenses are a little lackluster; base 95 is only slightly above average, meaning anything that can take a Draco Meteor or coverage move makes a great check. All that is required to beat a Choice Specs set is good prediction, and after a Draco Meteor things such as Suicune and Milotic laugh at it and can simply heal up or set up Calm mind while Kingdra switches out. Meanwhile, Physical sets such as Choice Band and Dragon Dance are much easier to wall; Ferroseed and Empoleon easily take Outrage and Waterfall, and if locked into outrage, can retaliate with leech seed or ice beam, respectively.

Quite frankly, the only reason people are considering banning it is Rain Dance + Swift Swim. This is what makes it dangerous, since in Rain it outspeeds Scarf Flygon and pretty much everything else. This set, however, relies on its mediocre attacking stats and Life Orb to cause damage, and since it relies on a weak Hidden Power for coverage, and thus its speed means little if Rain-boosted Surfs and Draco Meteors cannot severaly harm the opponent. Again, Swampert, Empoleon and Calm Mind Suicune / Milotic and other bulky waters will easily stop its STAB moves; the ebst option is specially bulky Suicune, who can take even a Draco Meteor (Kingdras strongest move against it) with ease and Calm Mind up while Kingdra switches out.

Perhaps if Kingdra had a better Physical movepool, or a way to boost its special attack, I would think it too powerful for UU, but quite frankly every set is easily walled by at least 2 different pokemon; in addition, outside of Rain it is laughably easy to revenge kill due to its low speed.
 
Agreeing with what seems to be the general consenus that kingdra, while definitely one of the top threats, is not broken. This is because the main reason kingdra is so threatening is not its power but rather the difference between its sets, meaning that once you know what it's running it's much easier to beat. This would be a much bigger problem if kingdra was as strong as raikou for example, but as it is, chances are kingdra is not going to sweep as soon as it comes out unless your team was sufficiently weakened, which just means your opponent outplayed you. This means that there will usually be a chance to figure out kingdra's set, at which point dealing with it should not be all that difficult. Base 95 offenses can only do so much. So basically, while kingdra has most of the thngs it needs to be broken -typing, movepool, bulk, enough speed, unpredictability - it just doesn't have the power to make use of them. I could elaborate more I guess but ~everything has been covered by someone else so I'd just be repeating even more of what has already been said so I'll leave it at this.
 
I agree with most of your post Ginku, but I want to contend the point about its movepool, since I think that's a big part of why Kingdra can be played around rather than flatly countered. Neither Draco Meteor nor Outrage are safe moves to be locked into, and need to be used with careful risk assessment. At -2 Draco Meteor is an easy invitation for Raikou to come in and set up on you, while Outrage gives your opponent a chance to phaze him or revenge kill him without a considerable number of boosts accrued. I can't count the number of times my Kingdra sweep was halted by confusion instead of a counter...
 
I am of the opinion Kingdra deserves to be banned. It's extremely unpredictable and versatile. It does lack the outright power to just click the appropriate move and kill things, but on the other hand, it's not that hard to provide the proper support to make up for the lack of power. Kingdra needs 1 or 2 layers of hazards up, and it all of a sudden has the capability to "click appropriate move and kill things." My main issue is with Rain Dance Kingdra. Rain Dance Kingdra outspeeds the entire tier, and while base 95 attacking stats might not be huge, Draco Meteor and Rain-Boosted Hydro Pump have enough power to OHKO or 2HKO anything in the tier, save for special walls. Hyper Offensive teams essentially get ruined by one pokemon, as there is nothing they can use to outspeed and revenge kill Kingdra. They're forced to rely on priority, but because Kingdra has decent 75/95/95 defenses, stuff like Extremespeed Arcanine isn't going to OHKO from full health. You're forced to either sit around and let things die until the rain dies out, or let your team eat 3-4 hits while Life Orb takes its toll. This is essentially the same reason Excadrill was banned in OU- it ruined the entire Hyper Offensive playstyle. After one turn of setup, it Outsped the tier, and KO'd everything offensive in sight. Yes, Kingdra needs spikes support because of the lack of raw power, but what offensive spinners exist in UU? None. So Hyper Offensive teams have to function without them, which means Kingdra gets to run free. You can attempt to drop a Blastoise on a Hyper Offensive team if you want, but have fun sacking all the offensive pressure you worked so hard to gain.


I'd like to quote the Kingdra analysis
Dragon Dance sets are best checked by Pokemon sturdy enough to take a hit and hit back hard, such as Shaymin and Escavalier.
Click to expand...

If I'm reading that right, the best way to check a dragon dance set is to absorb a hit, and pray you OHKO back. If it's Life Orb, you have to stall it out until it puts itself in KO range of something like Shaymin or Zapdos, and then still absorb a huge hit in the process. If it's not Life Orb, you basically have to sacrifice something to get a hit in, and then either tank a second hit to KO it, or have a big enough priority attack. The most common example I see is something like this:
1) Kingdra sets up to +1/+1, I switch in sacrifice
2) Kingdra OHKO's with Outrage
3) I switch in Scarfgon and OHKO in return with Outrage, because I outspeed
4) Scarfgon gets KO'd the next turn because I'm locked into Outrage, and can't switch out.
Isn't that exactly what a Kingdra used on a Hyper Offensive team is going to want you to do? Attempt to set up and kill things in order to overpower the opponent? Kingdra will take that 2 for 1 deal any day of the weak. When your strategy of countering a DD Kingdra is to sac 1 mon and hope priority kills it next turn as an absolute best case scenario, I think the mon is a bit broken.

On top of all this, Kingdra still has multiple other sets it can run, such as Choice Specs, mixxed Rain Dance, and Double Dance. Unless you spend half your team doing so, you can't cover all the Kingdra sets. It's just not possible. While each set does have its specific counters, so did each Salamence set in DPP OU, and each Mew set, and yet, out they went. (Mew by usage, not by banning, of course.) Each of these pokemon ran rampant in their respective tiers, as there was no way you could hard counter them. The same applies here to Kingdra in UU.


tl;dr:
~Rain Dance Kingdra demolishes all Hyper Offense teams single-handedly
~DD Kingdra is countered by saccing mons, which just contributes to an offensive team's strategy
~On top of these two sets, Kingdra is versatile enough to run multiple more, just like Mew and Salamence used to

For these reasons, I think you should ban Kingdra.
 
SJCrew said:
I agree with most of your post Ginku, but I want to contend the point about its movepool, since I think that's a big part of why Kingdra can be played around rather than flatly countered. Neither Draco Meteor nor Outrage are safe moves to be locked into, and need to be used with careful risk assessment. At -2 Draco Meteor is an easy invitation for Raikou to come in and set up on you, while Outrage gives your opponent a chance to phaze him or revenge kill him without a considerable number of boosts accrued. I can't count the number of times my Kingdra sweep was halted by confusion instead of a counter...
Click to expand...
Of course Draco Meteor and Outrage have notable drawbacks, but when you consider that they're also 140/120 BP moves with 90/100 accuracy on the best attacking type in the game, they suddenly become much better. If Kingdra was using Dragon Claw instead it would simply lack the power. Not to mention its movepool also includes DD and rain dance [on a swift swimmer], so I really don't think you can complain about it. It's not perfect, but by no means not good.
 
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