Follow along with the video below to see how to install our site as a web app on your home screen.
Note: This feature may not be available in some browsers.
Snag some vintage SPL team logo merch over at our Teespring store before January 12th!
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
I've messed around with Virizion before and I can vouch for it, actually. It's no Cobalion but Grass typing + that Speed tier + Ground/Dark resistance are a massive nuisance for Hippo + Emp balances and teams that over-rely on Scarf Krook. Z-Edge at +2 also only needs a bit of chip to smash its best checks on balance:
+2 252 Atk Virizion Continental Crush (180 BP) vs. 252 HP / 184 Def Amoonguss: 324-382 (75 - 88.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
+2 252 Atk Virizion Continental Crush (180 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Altaria-Mega: 280-330 (96.2 - 113.4%) -- 75% chance to OHKO (does 50-60 to defensive, which isn't hard chip to get)
+2 252 Atk Virizion Continental Crush (180 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Celebi: 305-359 (89.4 - 105.2%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Leftovers recovery
Again it's no Cobalion but it arguably has a better matchup versus balance/fat than Coba cause it has an edge over the most common Fighting checks rn
Kommo-o to A
While we're over here nomming Hydreigon to S because of being a customizable, splashable, versatile monster with more viable sets than a swiss army knife (Which I AGREE with Hydreigon to S btw) I also wanted us to take a look at another monstrously versatile dragon, Kommo-o. Nothing says "Jack of All Trades, Master of None" Like Kommo-o. Kommo-o is really fond of the success of the Empoleon/Hippo cores, which most of it's sets can take advantage of. The Mixed set especially is really scary right now, having it's best check be defensive Mega Altaria, which A: Isn't horribly common right now and B: can lose to an unlucky Pjab poison. That isn't to say it's other sets aren't fantastic too. It's Swords Dance and Belly Drum sets can be just as scary if not scarier to the common balance builds right now. It's Autotomize set is another underrated set right now, since many teambuilds these days depend on a Hydra or Krookodile for their speed control. It can even run a specs set that I still find scary to try and switch on. And of course, classic Dragon Dance set is always still there if none of the above sets appeal to you. In addition to having so many sets, it also has 3 viable abilities. While overcoat has fallen off just a bit since Breloom is banned and Amoonguss is no longer omnipresent, it's still viable. And even if you don't think overcoat is common enough to worry about, the constant guessing games of soundproof vs bulletproof alone can really rattle Kommo-o's opponents. With so many different sets with different checks, and each set being able to run a multitude of abilities, it adds layers of depth to Kommo-o that honestly makes it scarier to face at team preview than something like Terrakion in my opinion, which generally has consistent checks across it's sets and roughly the same gameplan among most of it's sets. Scouting the Kommo-o set without something like bulky Altaria-M that checks MOST of them can be a nightmare and end up losing you a mon or sometimes the whole game if you play improperly. Kommo-o can force awkward plays until it's scouted out, since you have to assume its every possible set and every possible ability until you find out exactly what it's up to. Sure, some teams make the Kommo-o set predictable, but that in itself can be a trap and you can never really know until it hits the field and starts clicking buttons. Kommo-o may not be the BEST at anything, and most of it's sets are just alright-ish as standalones, but the fact it can be ANY of it's widely varied sets makes it extremely splashable and unpredictable, and the constant lottery you have to play when going up against a Kommo-o is why I think it deserves A rank.
Alright so it's been a min since I've posted here, but something recently dropped that I feel should've rose - Venomoth C- ---> C+ (At least)
I've been messing around with veil (ofc) and its sub disable set, and its actually been the best wincon on the team. Everyone already know what it does, and the power of tinted lens, but it can get a lot more free QD's after a disable and just win from there.
Here's the set I've been using:
The hp investment if to get to 301 hp so Blissy's SToss is a 4hko.
A lot of people have not been prepped for this mon, and for good reason, when was the last time you've faced one? Idk what else to say, but the replays will show what's needed.
I've messed around with Virizion before and I can vouch for it, actually. It's no Cobalion but Grass typing + that Speed tier + Ground/Dark resistance are a massive nuisance for Hippo + Emp balances and teams that over-rely on Scarf Krook. Z-Edge at +2 also only needs a bit of chip to smash its best checks on balance:
+2 252 Atk Virizion Continental Crush (180 BP) vs. 252 HP / 184 Def Amoonguss: 324-382 (75 - 88.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
+2 252 Atk Virizion Continental Crush (180 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Altaria-Mega: 280-330 (96.2 - 113.4%) -- 75% chance to OHKO (does 50-60 to defensive, which isn't hard)
+2 252 Atk Virizion Continental Crush (180 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Celebi: 305-359 (89.4 - 105.2%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Leftovers recovery
Again it's no Cobalion but it arguably has a better matchup versus balance/fat than Coba cause it has an edge over the most common Fighting checks rn
While I don't disagree that Virizion deserves it's rank, I would disagree on the remark that the grasses and Altaria are it's best, or even it's most common balance checks. I'd argue that Doublade is easily it's best check that can be found on balance (But I suppose that's unfair since it's such a hard check to the other musketeers, Cobalion and Terrakion as well.) Since it walls Virizion into oblivion and 2hkos with gyro ball in return.
Latias is another mon that balance CAN run that acts as one of the more solid checks. It can take a nasty chunk from Rockium if it hards in, but it can always hard in from full and beyond that, Psyshock always kills after rocks.
252 SpA Latias Psyshock vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Virizion: 306-362 (94.7 - 112%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
Again, this isn't to say Virizion is bad or that it should stay unranked (I still think it would be just fine in C-) I just don't believe that the checks you listed are the "best checks on balance" so to speak.
First thing of all, I’d like to support the nomination of Kommo-o to A. This mon has got a lot of sets - so many that it has in fact no true check. Being impredictable makes it force a lot of switches. It has got many set-up options: DD, SD, Belly Drum, Clangorous Soulblaze, Automatize... and can be run physical, special, or even mixed, choiced or not... It doesn’t even have the lack of coverage options that would have put a stop to its sweep : access to P-Jab, Close Combat, Ice Punch, Dragon Claw, Earthquake, Flash Cannon, Iron Head, Flamethrower, T-Punch avoid being walled by for instance a Slowbro-Mega. This added to a quite reliable way of recovery - Drain punch -, useful abilities in Soundproof and Bulletproof, and high global stats make the 7th gen dragon worth of A-rank, even if having a bad offensive and defensive typing.
To finish I have got a question: maybe I didn’t notice it, but where is the explanation for Chandelure’s drop from A- to B+?
Do you want to live in a world where Kommo-o's have to tell their young lings to be careful at night, a world where Shark can get to plus 6 speed and be nothing. Comfey, my lover, my dear friend it is time for you to have your day, this is for you pal.
Comfey: Unranked < C/C+
lets take a look at what Comfey offers stat wise as a Mon: 51 hp /52 atk/90 def/ 82 SpA/ 110 SpD/ 100 Spe
defensively Comfey has the Rotom syndrome, very low base hp stat and relatively high defenses but overall is a bulky mon and has access to recovery in synthesis.
offensively Comfey is mediocre at best barring that comfey only should be run special leaves it with a underwhelming 82 base special attack where its strongest stab attack is dazzling gleam being 80 bp. Comfey has great natural speed 236 without any investment just creeping scizor who i will touch on later.
UU fairy analysis: relevant fairy types besides comfey in the tier (Sylveon, Mega Altaria, Primarina, Togekiss, Klefki, Florges) most notably what fairys offer to the UU tier is their immunity to Dragon type moves, and when a tier is run by the likes of latias and Hydreigon having a fairy type on your team is practically a necessity. two disadvantages that fairy's have when dealing with dragons is not being able to out speed them and deal with their set up. after one dragon dance from Kommo-o or haxorus fairies really struggle to provide the answer most teams need to dragons. Comfey is the only fairy type in the game that always out speeds dragons and could really care less about dragon dance in general because of its signature ability triage.
the impact of Triage + draining kiss on the UU tier:
Comfey is the only fairy type with access to a +3 priority damage dealing fairy type move and even with its low special attack and draining kiss being 50bp its impact on the tier is scary.
Kiss heals 3/4 the damage dealt and ALWAYS goes first besides a faster fake out mon!
Comfey @ Metronome
Ability: Triage
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpA
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Draining Kiss
- Giga Drain
- Aromatherapy
- Calm Mind
this set best fits on bulky offense that can afford to play aggressively because of aromatherapy. the only time comfey should come into battle before attempting to sweep is when it can get off an aromatherapy freely for example hard switching on a hydra dark pulse or a weaker special attack in general. clearing threats that always prevent Comfey from sweeping like the steel, poison, and fire types (except infernape) that can stop comfey from sweeping must take priority. Comfey does not have a hard time setting calm minds in general, 1. because of its natural bulk and 2. because of its ability to run max hp because of triage, and 3. it recovers 3/4 the damage dealt from attacking. once you have calm minded enough to win sit back and relax because priority metronome boosted draining kiss or giga drain will take you home (nice try e speed)
Hippo, Alomomola, Mega manectric, Mega Altaria, Mega Slowbro, Kyureum, Primarina, krookodile, mamoswine.
Togekiss, Empoleon, Mega Aerodactyl, Sylveon, Celebi, Mantine (non Haze).
Comfey @ Metronome
Ability: Triage
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpA
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Draining Kiss
- Giga Drain
- Calm Mind
- Synthesis
this set is very similar to the last set but priority synthesis grants you more freedom to act as a special sponge and remain healthy if needed throughout the match. Go for the sweep when damage from toxic is no longer a factor.
this set the my og comfey guy set is near and dear to my heart and fits well on offensive oriented teams. the purpose of this set is to not allow set up in general lets say you have a choice locked krookodile who just pursuit trapped a gengar snaging the ko, but now your opponent can freely dragon dance with Kommo-o, with this comfey set that's ok! hard switch into comfey and threaten the immediate KO with draining kiss or turn allows you to keep up momentum after stumping an opponents attempt to sweep. Comfey naturally out speeds jolly scizor and hp fire keeps scizor honest in case it does not want to bullet punch predicting an opposing moltres or rockey helmet alomomola coming in. Giga drain grants Comfey more priority offensive presence in general and provides some recovery.
choice specs/ +1, modest, max special attack draining kiss damage outputs
- OHKO after rocks: Hydregion, Haxorus, Kommo- o, Mega Sceptile, Mega Sharpedo, crawdaunt, Mega Absol, Mienshao.
Krookodile (choice scarf): -- (80.3 - 94.8%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Terrakion: (67.2 - 79.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Altaria Mega (support): (53.2 - 63.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Altaria Mega (dragon dance) (64.6 - 76.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Latias (choice scarf): (52.3 - 62.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Heracross: (68.4 - 81.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and burn damage
Kyurem (SubRoost): (53.8 - 63.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Kyurem (choice specs): (55.2 - 64.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Lucario: (46.9 - 55.5%) -- 90.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Cobalion: (39.9 - 47.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
Infernape: (45 - 53.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Manectric Mega: (41.9 - 50.1%) -- 90.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Aerodactyl Mega: (34.2 - 40.8%) -- 51.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Azelf: (45.7 - 53.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
choice specs/ +1, modest, max special attack giga drain damage outputs:
Empoleon A+ -> A: Disagree
I think that Empoleon is the most splashable defensive Pokemon in the tier and is UU's best current defogger, which is why A+ perfectly represents where it's at in the metagame right now. Fighting-types of course hinder its place in the metagame to an extent, but all of them except for special Kommo-o sets, which can still fall victim to Toxic, need a free switch into play to even begin pressuring it due to the thread of Scald and burns and, due to Empoleon's impressive Special Attack, just taking a lot of general chip damage. I think one of the things I love about Empoleon most and another reason I'd absolutely keep it A+ is that it's got a super surprisingly amount of versatility and can have small customizations made to its moveset based on your team's needs that end up being extremely helpful. Having both the options of removing and setting entry hazards is amazing due to allowing Empoleon to still fit comfortably on teams if one of those roles is being occupied. The use of Protect is something I feel has also been showcased well recently, largely thanks to how well Leftovers recovery, Toxic damage, and the fact that a lot of Pokemon that often try powering through Empoleon are using a Choiced item adds up. You've also got the very solid option of running Shuca Berry, which allows Empoleon to adequately combat a huge amount of Pokemon that on paper could otherwise handle it, like Mega Aerodactyl, Mamoswine, offensive Stakataka, and Krookodile. The argument that it can be overwhelmed as a match goes on is a fair one but I think that Empoleon's goal isn't to consistently wall the Pokemon it checks and moreso switch in, hit them with Toxic, and utilize Protect to wear them down or its typing to successfully perform the utility-based roles it's being fitted on its team to perform, which due to the vast amount of Pokemon it can tank a fair amount of hits from, is something you'll always see happen when Empoleon's in play. Overall, I just think that Empoleon is an amazing Pokemon fully deserving of its A+ ranking because its typing allows it to easily come into play against several top threats (also is one of the few typings capable of coming in on offensive behemoth Primarina), and from there it's able to utilize its movepool and item versatility to perform a vast amount of utility roles for your team, including either one of entry hazard setting or removing, status spreading and wearing down foes with Toxic (I personally believe it to be one of the best mons in the tier at doing this btw), and luring in Pokemon that require Ground-type moves to beat it and KOing or weakening them if running Shuca Berry. It's a dynamic threat and the main component of several successful balance builds, and I think that while Hippowdon is also a very important part of the empo/hippo core, Empoleon has an easier time working around its counterplay, and due to its ability to fulfill more roles, is more splashable. I'd certainly keep it where it is even if going all the way up to A+ seems sudden at first.
This one discussion point was pretty long and I don't know that nomination wise I have anything to offer (still getting back into the swing of the meta after taking a bit of a smog break) but I do wanna say that at this point Cobalion should probably stay A. Terrakion I'd say is A+ worthy just because its typing has required the use of a lot more niche means of counterplay and with its offensive prowess it's just a more dynamic threat in general, but Cobalion seems to struggle working around a lot of unintentional adaptations the metagame has made to it. Mega Aggron is still great but not as defining as before, while the Slowbros, Hippowdon, and Moltres are all becoming larger parts of the metagame. Cobalion struggles to adequately work around this without running special-based sets (which I find to be hard to get going due to its low attacking stats and reliance on Calm Mind for setup), while Terrakion on the other hand can more naturally work around its counterplay (bros and ground-types can be overwhelmed by setup sets with chip damage while even Palossand is 2HKOed by +2 Life Orb EQ). The use of its typing and bulk also doesn't seem to come into play as much when the top Dark-types, Hydreigon and Krookodile, power through it fairly easily. It's still a great Pokemon but I don't think it poses the same threat it used to in recent weeks and isn't as comparable to the A+ threats as Terrakion, which has a great immediate offensive presence and less defensive counterplay at the moment. My thoughts here were a bit jumbled, but basically I'm all for Terrak up but not so much Cobalion anymore.
I hope you guys liked reading this! Let me know what you think, but also please keep Emp A+ ;-;
New VR is exciting! I would like to contribute and make a nom.
Celebi deserves at least A- because of the valuable role it plays in the current meta. With base 100 stats Celebi is not easy to rko giving it many opportunities to sweep. Natural cure allows it to be one of the best stall breakers imo, also the fact that it is a grass type helps.
Celebi has many sets which allows it to threaten Pokemon that would normally check or wall it or just shatter walls:
- Groundium Z allows Celebi to beat Scizor (HP Fire does also exist), Alolan Muk, and Mega Aggron; (Prevents Empoleon from roaring if you count that)
- Psychium Z literally knocks out Scizor +2 252 SpA Celebi Shattered Psyche (175 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Scizor: 285-336 (101.4 - 119.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO, slams Blissey +2 252 SpA Celebi Shattered Psyche (175 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 366-432 (51.2 - 60.5%) -- 91.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery, and then hits everything else pretty hard.
- Dazzling Gleam hits Hydreigon and Latias.
- Celebi is also great as a defensive wall because of Recover and Natural Cure.
Instances where Celebi's bulk comes in handy: 252 SpA Hydreigon Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Celebi: 254-300 (74.4 - 87.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Manectric-Mega Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Celebi: 202-238 (59.2 - 69.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Krookodile Knock Off vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Celebi: 200-236 (58.6 - 69.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (This against Z Celebi)
+1 252 Atk Kommo-o Poison Jab vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Celebi: 234-276 (68.6 - 80.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
4 SpA Togekiss Air Slash vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Celebi: 188-224 (55.1 - 65.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Terrakion Continental Crush (180 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Celebi: 292-345 (85.6 - 101.1%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
UU has always been a tier filled with bulky waters and now that Serperior has left Celebi has picked up the mantle. These overused annoying Empoleon + Hippowdon have a Pokemon that breaks them. Celebi can do what Seperior couldn't, break fckn Suicune.
with the correct support mega pidgeot can be a damn good balance breaker (magneton for empoleon/steels). even if you choose to not run magneton, you can simply run u-turn on pidge and become an amazing offensive pivot, as a lot of things that want to switch into a hurricane die to a strong physical attacker like crawdaunt or terak for example. IMO its way more useful in practice than other B ranks like mega houndoom, or raikou (which i havent seen in forever). sure mega slot has some competition but honestly it gets boring building mega shark HO or pursuit mega aero, and u turn isnt blocked by grounds (mega mane). ground immunity and decent bulk is also v nice as you can switch in a lot more frequently than you'd think.
sure you can compare it to moltres, but pidgeot's way faster and has 100% accurate hurricanes, making it imo more reliable and able to stay in on more threats so it can actually fire off attacks that hit
on another note, i think gengar needs to go down to B, im not too sure what its "best" sets are, but imo something like life orb wisp or choice scarf would be its most viable, and theyre just not strong enough or are easily threatened out/counter played for it to be up in B. Gengar is also hard to switch in, relying on double switches or volt/turn to get in safely, and then fire 80 base power (sadly weak) shadow balls more often than not since ghost hits a lot more than poison.
perhaps im not using the right sets but i think mega bird and gengar could switch spots
Pardon the double post but I have some comments on Florges. In the current meta Florges is much more valuable than Sylveon teams. The three key reasons why Florges is more viable are its access to synthesis, defog, and more speed. Florges is able to heal up in one turn with Synthesis as opposed to two turns with wish protect like Sylveon. This makes Florges much less of a momentum suck. Defog, although it may not be a common move choice, is great for role compression making Florges both a wish passer and a hazard remover. Finally, Florges' speed is very important in its role allowing it to ouspeed a speedy Muk, Mantine, Crocune, Primarina, a bulky Mega Altaria and a number of other Pokemon that Sylveon can't outspeed. I don't so much think Florges has to rise, but I definitely agree with Sylveon dropping. Sylveon has also fallen out of favor with how strong sound proof Kommo-o has been. Hyper voice being the only offensive edge Sylveon had on Florges is now less useful. I never appreciated Sylveon as a physical wall and it doesn't fair well as a special wall struggling to switch in on the likes of Mega Pidgeot, Primarina, Moltres, and other strong special attackers. Both Pokemon play the same role in the meta as clerics and wish passers, but Florges does a much better job.
from A to A+: Cobalion is very meta-defining, splashable on any offensive build and extremely versatile. It can function at the same time as a breaker, an offensive pivot and a check to many high tier threats, especially Scizor. The Calm Mind set is also viable as it patches some of Cobalion's common weaknesses for lesser immediate power. I think it should go back where it was.
from B+ to A-: As said before, this mon has too many strong sets to be in the B tiers. It definetely deserves a place between the likes of Moltres and Nihilego, considering the viability of NP breaker, Scarf, Band, LO Mixed and LO Slack Off (recent trend). Also, the ability to check some set up sweepers with fighting priority is sometimes overlooked.
from A+ to S: We've seen the use of this mon in Snake. I think it's time to rise this dragon next to Lati, as the viability of Scarf, Taunt Dragonium, LO, Specs and the occasional Z-Belch make this mon irreplaceable. It is a very splashable dragon, and we have recently seen a trend of using Hydra on very defensive build, which further show its versatility and general utility.
from B- to B: Due to the recent trends in the BO/Balance core of Hippo + Empo, the crab has risen more and more as a menace for bulkier builds, but still having presence against offense thanks to relevant priority. The band set is definitely the most viable, but it can also run sd with better support. A very good antimeta mon.
from B to B-: There are not many reasons to run this pidgeon over something like Mega-Mane right now. The popular meta trends really don't favour it at all (Mane, Aero, Empoleon, Nihilego). It still has viability as an offensive pivot due to U-Turn not being stopped by Ground-types, but I think that the meta trends should reflect a drop right now.
Nothing has really caught my eye this slate other than how odd this discussion point on Doublade is
It feels pretty stupid to see Cobalion and Terrakion as discussion points for rising a rank, but then randomly Doublade (a good answer to both) sitting there as a discussion point to drop. Doesn't make much sense to me, this mon blanket checks a large portion of the tier, a steel that's immune to fighting is super dope. Kommo-o, Terrakion, Cobalion, Scizor, etc. are all amazing in this tier and have been better then they've been in the past. It's not the most splashable or necessarily the strongest pick ever, but if anything the meta trends are working in Doublade's favor, not against it. So I'm not sure why it'd ever go down, I'd say it's fine at B.
Alright, so hi. I'm gonna post my thoughts on some a previous nom that after testing it myself, think it is rightly deserved.
Virizion from UR < C- (Or even C )
So, another one of the musketeers. Each terrakion and cobalion have their rightful place as a great pokemon in the meta for their own right. Terrakion being one of the scariest wall/stallbreakers in the tier, with it's choice band and SD sets respectively being equally scary. Next is cobalion, one of the best rockers on offense, able to add so much support and utility to a team. Now what does Virizion do compared to those two? It's main set is swords dance.
Virizion @ Rockium Z
Ability: Justified
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Close Combat
- Leaf Blade
- Swords Dance
- Stone Edge
It's typing is grass/fighting and it's stats are 91/90/72/90/129/108. While it's attacking power lacks and it doesn't have much in terms of defense, it can patch up it's attacking stat in the use of swords dance. In combination with the new gen 7 toy in z moves, stone edge becomes a deadly nuke that can let it muscle past a lot of its checks in togekiss, amoonguss, even latias if it hard switches into the Z move. And due to it's typing, it can do very well in current trends, where Empoleon and Hippowdon reign as the best defensive core, and Krookodile becoming one of the most reliable pursuit trappers and scarfers in the tier. Even though it only has 90 attack, the amount of offensive pressure it can place, and its ability to break through common cores, it has a lot going for it.
This was a game I recently played for best friends tour [s/o to vivalospride for hosting the tour] And I brought a team using virizion. From the matchup screen, it looked like it couldnt do much, my opponent having two good checks in togekiss and gengar. The problem is, once i brought it in on swampert on turn 5 it placed an immense amount of pressure on his team and due to that, his togekiss died early in the game which was great for me. The very next turn Virizion was also able to kill manectric, getting rid of one of his forms of momentum which also greatly helped my team. You can see that whenever it game in the pressure it put on my opponents part was a lot which put him in tough situations. Overall, I feel virizion has cemented a niche for itself in the current meta and it definitely deserves to be ranked.
Other noms I agree with:
Crawdaunt B- < B : This thing is a monster in the current meta, its choice band set getting damage whenever it comes in and SD being able to sweep through unprepared teams.
Florges/Sylveon: I agree with drew's points, florges is a lot better than sylveon in my opinion and VR should reflect that
Kommo-o A- < A: Again, another super good mon in the current meta which i believe should rise. with it's mixed sets, SR, dragon dance, and just it's versatility in general can make it hard to know what set it is, and is hard to prep for. Overall, Kommo-o 2 gud raise this.
Infernape B+ < A-: Also agree, the monkey is good, shouldn't have dropped imo.
Hydreigon A+ < S: This thing is amazing rn, I feel it is on the level of the likes of lati and scizor rn
B to B- : I agree with this. While No Guard Hurricanes are nice, there are so many things that can switch in on it in the meta right now as Gerbit pointed out. It's best set right now (in my opinion) is Work Up stall-breaker, and Togekiss is arguably better at that than Mega Bird without taking up a mega. Mega Pidgeot is pretty rough to build around, requires a lot of support, and is just not great right now. If we were still having trouble killing Mega Venu, I'd say keep him at B.
B- to B: Get this boy up a rank, I am shocked that he is still at B-. LO, Splash Plate, Z Move, Band all are viable and are fairly easy to slot into a team. Yes he fits primarily on offense and his speed keeps him in the Bs here, but I think B- is definitely too low for how huge of a threat he is.
I don't think any of these three should rise in rankings. While Ape is easy to fit into most teams, has a variety of sets, and can fill multiple roles, I don't think he deserves A-. So many things switch in to him regardless of his set. For Celebi: yes it can do a lot of damage, but it also just dies to a lot of the tier before it can set up. Cobalion: Rocks + SD with a Z move or shuca is quite strong, but it loses to most of the other rockers in the tier. I think they're all fine where they're at.
As for the Sylveon/Florges debate: Just because one is getting more usage/hype currently, doesn't mean they should be in different rankings. Sylveon is still a great wish passer and cleric. Florges is still a great defensive pivot with defog. They don't exactly fill the same role outside of being defensive bulky fairy types. I don't think Sylveon should drop, and I don't think Florges should rise.
Florges is a Pokémon that is definitely better than Sylveon. You’re forgetting something about the Fairy Eevolution TimeToTestThisTeam. What Sylveon has over Florges is that it could outdamage it with Hyper Voice, but that niche has evaporated with the rise of Kommo-o and Sub sets running Soundproof to specifically block events like this from bypassing the Sub. Florges also offers a lot of role compression over Sylveon with Wish passing and hazard removal all in one slot and can easily take a lot of neutral hits on the Special Attacking side of the spectrum. Sylveon also needs to use up two turns of Wish+Protect to heal itself up which sucks the momentum straight out of a lot of balances when Florges can immediately recover health. You say that they don’t fill the same role outside of defensive Fairy type but they hardly are different to each other as they are both clerics that assist their side of the field. Sylveon has honestly been worse with its mediocre passiveness for a while now and dropping it further is something that I can agree with.
Crawdaunt to B
I can easily get behind this nom. Crawdaunt has an easy time dismantling the common core of Emp+Hippo with the growing popularity of Choice Band. If Crawdaunt gets in, and you’re slower than it, then you are most likely fucked as Crabhammer does loads to mons that even resist it. It’s niche of being able to practically 2HKO the entire metagame with its STABs is a niche that most other mons can’t claim they have and so it’s only reasonable to raise it.
Virizion to C-
Keep the Virizion discussion going Draconic because it definitely has its niches over its brethren. Virizion can’t be revenge killed by Krookodile unlike the other musketeers, it still maintains a nice speed tier by outspeeding Moltres and Togekiss, and any other Birb that should theoretically beat Virizion gets blown away by Stone Edge. Now we gotta free Keldeo to complete the collection.
This is all I have for tonight. See you all later!
When I saw TDK use Articuno, I started thinking about how great of a heal beller/defogger it was vs one of the most common rockers right now, Empoleon (as TDK mentioned in his post). With Pressure + Heal Bell, Articuno is able to keep rocks off the field and 1v1 the penguin, while also threatening water types with Freeze Dry. While Articuno is currently 0-2 in snake, I don’t think that is a fair representation of how it can fit in the meta. Even in TDK’s game vs Pasy_g, had slowbro ever burnt Empoleon with Scald, Articuno would have 1v1d even quicker. With its impressive bulk articuno can take on multiple attacks from some of UU’s strongest hitters, like Hydreigon. Reliable recovery + Pressure allow it to PP stall opposing fat/offensive threats, not being 2HK0’d by specs primarina for instance and 2HK0ing it back. A 4x weakness to rocks can definitely be hindering to a defogger, but that just means you run a second defog user to relieve the pressure when necessary. All in all I feel Articuno offers something to stall builds and i’m sure TDK will post a better paragraph than this :x but for those reasons, Articuno should be at least C-
Also big fan of TDK’s spread:
Articuno @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 244 HP / 4 Def / 36 SpA / 128 SpD / 96 Spe
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Defog
- Heal Bell
- Roost
- Freeze-Dry
244 EV in HP isn't the best, Articuno takes 50% on the Sr which mean it dies if it comes twice on them. I know that it shouldn't come on them but eh, Whirlwind or Roar may force it out. Should run 240/248 imo. Btw I agree with that nomination. Articuno is a fun Pokemon and it can be cool with some support (also a good mon to use in Stall).
Will post my thoughts for the other nominations later today, too lazy right now to write on my phone >o>
I think Togekiss should be S Rank. When I see a Togekiss at team preview, my first thought isn't "How do I beat this thing?" but "How am I going to learn how to beat this thing without getting screwed?" Between all the variants of Nasty Plot, all the variants of Scarf, and all the variants of the underrated Specs set, not only is Togekiss one of the most versatile and team-friendly mons in the tier, it is also one of the most punishing to read incorrectly. Think you can revenge it with Scizor? Well not if it's Babiri Berry! Think you can force it out with Aero or Nihilego? Congratulations, it's Charti Berry and you've just been Thunder Waved. Think you can 1v1 it with a special wall? Well, if you manage to break through flinches and get a Toxic off, it can just Heal Bell that shit away, and that's if it doesn't just drop you with a Z-Move. And all that's ignoring Scarf Toge's ability to invalidate anything slower. All this versatility provides Togekiss with an ample response to just about every meta trend and every playstyle, making it one of the most flexible and self-sufficient team players a builder could ask for, all while forcing the opponent to play a dangerous guessing game from Turn 1 that, if you're smart, can give you even more control than your particular set might even allow on paper. Togekiss's ability to exceed at pretty much anything you want it to, and glue virtually any team together with such little opportunity cost, fits the bill of an S Rank Pokemon pretty much perfectly.
I had a Togekiss be a real pain in the ass with Defog earlier today, as well. Maybe it's the bone I've always had with Hydreigon, but Togekiss should be S before Hydreigon ever gets there.
I had a Togekiss be a real pain in the ass with Defog earlier today, as well. Maybe it's the bone I've always had with Hydreigon, but Togekiss should be S before Hydreigon ever gets there.
hell no. Toge isnt the same threat as superthreat hydra. Togekiss has like only 2 savage threats. Scarf + NP. Hydra has a million. Also Toge is week to rocks. Hydra aint.
hell no. Toge isnt the same threat as superthreat hydra. Togekiss has like only 2 savage threats. Scarf + NP. Hydra has a million. Also Toge is week to rocks. Hydra aint.
Togekiss actually has like 6 sets that it can viably run from what I remember: Z-Aura Sphere, Babiri Berry, NP, Scarf, Specs, Defog, Twave, and maybe even more I'm forgetting. Charti Twave is something that Sage brought up to lure Aero as well. Rocks weakness also really isn't that big of a deal unless you're running Defog Togekiss which I'm not that big of a fan of. I don't agree with Togekiss or Hydra to S personally, but saying that Togekiss only has 2 sets is far from the truth. Also iirc Hydra has Scarf, Specs, Defog, Life Orb, Taunt, and other less-common sets like Z-Belch (that I remember at the time of writing this post) which is actually the same amount of sets Togekiss has, 1 less if you don't count Z-Belch.
Togekiss also can viably run Flamethrower to bone the steels that think they’re safe without using Aura Sphere, like Doublade. Agreed in that it can use a rise.
Togekiss is fine in A+. It's way too slow to outright sweep a team barring bad stall builds, lacks immediate power without a boost, and it is a Fairy-type that offers nothing in the Mega Sharpedo and Fighting-type matchup. The versatility of Toge is also being overestimated. Yes, it can circumvent specific counters via resist berries and coverage, but the second you drop Heal Bell you lose to Blissey builds and stray Toxics, and the lack of passive recovery is very noticeable if it's switching in multiple times with SR up. Putting it on the same level as Scizor and Lati, which can sweep teams on their own with their powerful priority and great Speed tier (in Sciz and Lati's case respectively), is a vastly overrating Togekiss.
Hello! I have not posted in a long time since I have been very busy, but this is a nom that I feel really should have came sooner:
Alolan Muk: B+ --> B-
Muk is extremely out of place being alongside the likes of Amoonguss, Rotom-H, Swampert, and the majority of B+ Pokemon, for a number of reasons. Firstly, A-Muk is extremely one-dimensional and only really fills the niche of a pursuit trapper. It has virtually 0 use or purpose aside from this. Other Pokemon can also fill this role on a team while having more versatility and use aside from being a dedicated trapper. For example, M-Aero serves as a potent revenge killer in addition to trapping; scarf Krookodile provides intimidate support and provides a volt-switch immunity. Even in the role of trapping, A-Muk has fallen off because a large amount of the Pokemon it intends to trap have very effective counterplay options. Notably, Celebi often runs Z-Earth Power, +1 CM Z-Draco Lati 2HKOs on the switch, Gengar can escape pursuit with substitute if uses it while A-Muk switches in, and Chandelure can 2HKO if specs or use sub when it switches in to escape next turn. This is compounded by A-Muk's complete lack of recovery, so it often gets chipped by hazards and other residual damage to the point that it's 2HKOd by Pokemon it intends to trap. Finally, A-Muk lets in tons of dangerous mons in for free that you really don't want to give free turns to, such as Kommo-o, Krookodile, Cobalion, Terrakion, and Mamo.
Overall, I feel that A-Muk is overvalued on the VR ranking. Its main role on a team is to serve as a trapper, but other Pokemon can also fill this role while having more options and use, especially since Muk's main pursuit targets have adapted to escape and render Muk useless. A rank of B- better reflects Muk: a niche Pokemon that serves a specific role on a team. Thank you for reading.
Shoutouts to g to the b for discussing this with me.
Toge is great and definitely deserves its slot in A+, but is not within swinging distance of S. The only 'mon other than Lati/Scizor that can realistically make that claim is Hydreigon.
I pushed hard for Mola to be at the same rank as Blissey when these ranks were first being discussed, but in retrospect that was a mistake. Mola is still solid but I think it fits better among the B+ crowd. Slowbro gives it a ton of competition, and is especially handy when you think about using that slot to check things like Terrakion. Meanwhile, Mola is no longer even a guaranteed slot on full stall. Blissey on the other hand has cemented itself not only as a stall staple but also as a solid balance 'mon thanks to the huge amount of support it provides a team, and fits far more comfortably alongside the A- crew. (Sorry Sage you were right all along.)
Speaking of, Terrakion is still as scary as ever, even with the meta adjusting with things like Slowbro and bringing back sets that had fallen out of favor like bulky Scizor. There are very few teams that don't experience a crazy amount of pressure from CB or SD Terrak. I think it's fair to finally move this bad boy up to A+.
Similarly even as the meta begins to adjust to Hydreigon's more offensive sets, it is still an absolute top pick, and I support its rise to S. My reservations in moving it immediately to S were never that I didn't think it deserved the slot, but rather that I wanted to give the meta time to settle around it a bit to see if it's still as crazy good. Well, it has, and it is. While it doesn't have the sweeping potential of the other two S-rank 'mons, it's still got just so much going for it: its defensive typing/ability matches up really well with current meta trends, it's the best offensive defogger in the game, it fits on almost every team archetype, and it is up there with Terrakion as one of the absolute scariest wallbreakers in the tier.
Gligar deserves to be somewhere in the Bs, at least B- but I think even B isn't completely out of the question.
I think Altaria-Mega and Slowbro-Mega could possibly even move up to A, but those are probably more controversial. Alt is something I've really been enjoying lately. Three attacks + Roost is an especially fun set that is really nice in the current meta: strong Fairy STAB and fire/ground coverage to break down common Steel-types is just fantastic, and it has a great defensive niche even without much bulk. Body Slam/EQ/Flamethrower/Roost is the set I've been using the most, but there is a lot of room to toy with it depending on what your team needs. And DD sets are still as good as ever. Slowbro-Mega is in a bit of a weirder place but taking the incredible defensive utility of Slowbro and adding a fantastic late-game wincon is just a really winning combination.
aim is absolutely right and Steelix-Mega shouldn't be all the way down in B-. Raise it to at least B IMO.
