USUM UU Viability Ranking Thread V2

[pokemonisfun]

Everyone who posted their own nominations had some good and honest points, so I thought they deserved some feedback from their fellow UU players.

View attachment 116247
Reuniclus has become one of the least used Pokemon in this entire tier. People are always asking for Pokemon that beat stall and check Breloom and Reuniclus is that Pokemon. I would even argue that it is the best stallbreaker there is. If you think about it, Reuniclus is immune to all status, generally bulky, and very offensive which makes it the perfect check to Bliss, Alo, and Quag. The only Pokemon used on stall that have good match ups against Reuniclus are Maggron, Muk, and Scizor. I can say for a fact the only people I've seen use Scizor are Pif and Bugz. Muk used to be seen on stall teams like Misa and Moute but has seen increasingly less stall usage.

Set

Reuniclus @ Leftovers
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 252 HP / 180 Def / 76 SpA
Quiet Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
- Calm Mind
- Psyshock
- Energy Ball
- Recover

This set is ev'd to live Heavy Slams from Maggron and 2hko Pyukumuku after rocks and leftovers. 100% credit to Sage for making this set!

Proof

0 Atk Aggron-Mega Heavy Slam (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 180 Def Reuniclus: 177-208 (41.7 - 49%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
76+ SpA Reuniclus Energy Ball vs. 252 HP / 40 SpD Pyukumuku: 142-168 (45.2 - 53.5%) -- 91.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Reuniclus is the perfect switch in to common Pokemon like Swampert, Latias, Gliscor, Cobalion, etc. It can set up on many Pokemon and is a sure way to 6-0 stall in under 40 turns. Reuniclus has a niche of beating stall but it also has other uses.

I think Reuniclus should be either B- or B tier so I am nominating it. Feel free to comment with your thoughts, sadly I didnt save any replays and I am too tired to do more battles. Thanks for reading!

Genuinely interesting opinion to read; thanks for posting. I think your argument would be even stronger if you were a little more exact in your points. For example, people have already mentioned that Reuniclus doesn't really switch into Cobalion and Latias easily as you claim nor does it easily 6-0 any stall, because of some of the Pokemon you mentioned.

One important piece of support Reuniclus could use is Magneton; that bolsters your argument that Reuniclus is a stall breaker because Magneton traps a lot of the steel walls that can beat Reuniclus. Additionally, another piece of evidence that would strengthen your case is if you analyze other sets; this is obviously not Reuniclus' only set as it can run different coverage moves (Focus Blast particularly) or strategies like Trick Room. It's underexplored right now, but Future Sight + a Fighting Pokemon like CB Terrakion is often even better at breaking stall than this set.

2. Rotom-C from B+ -> A-

This one definitely seems a little wild, but Rotom-C is one of the premier defoggers in this meta, especially for VoltTurn teams (which are very good right now). The ability to switch in on (due to levitate) and either Defog or threaten all of the most popular SR users right now (Rhyperior, Swampert, Seismitoad, Hippo, Gliscor) combined with volt switch provides insane tempo and reliable hazard control, and options like Pain Split or Hidden Power fire either improve your stall matchup or your scizor weakness. The set I've personally been using is a Bloom Doom set with max SpA and Spe (defog, pain split, VS, LS), and it's honestly been pretty insane.

252 SpA Rotom-Mow Bloom Doom (195 BP) vs. 244 HP / 0 SpD Gliscor: 348-411 (98.8 - 116.7%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Rotom-Mow Bloom Doom (195 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Manectric-Mega: 331-390 (117.7 - 138.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Rotom-Mow Bloom Doom (195 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Breloom: 207-244 (79.3 - 93.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

I include the breloom calculation because it's actually really relevant to how Rotom-C can act as an offensive breloom check for teams who don't want to run things like Celebi or chesto Crobat or whatever. Rotom-C is uniquely one of the only defoggers in the tier who isn't setup bait really anything other than like, Sub mega-sceptile? It even matches up well against Scizor -- a steel immunity and the threat of HP Fire will prevent pretty much every variant from using you as set-up bait.

All your nominations are supported by really well thought out and relevant points. All I can add to your post is that Rotom-C can use different moves on the Bloom Doom set. Notably, Thunderbolt is a pretty important option to have on this set (over Pain Split) because it lets you do good damage to Suicune without being forced out or dropping your stats or using your Z move. While Pain Split is good, it's not always needed especially because Rotom-C is paired with CB Scizor or Beedrill often, which can use Blissey to U-Turn on anyways.

I might as well nominate my own mon.

View attachment 115338B -> B+
With Azumarill out of the picture and scarf Hydreigon on the downturn, Haxorus now has a bit more breathing room to play with its massive 147 base attack, the 2nd highest in the tier only behind Mega-Beedrill. Its 97 base speed, while not great (it really sucks to not outspeed Hydreigon), is enough to get by in a metagame that seems to be slowing down a bit, allowing it to run wild. Plus with balance and stall teams on the rise, it can also be a nice wincon once all of the walls have been softened up a bit, seeing as after 1 dragon dance it hits 483 speed and 590 attack if it's jolly. Plus, it's 1 of 2 physical dragon types, the other being Mega-Altaria, which does not pack the sheer power that Haxorus has and also takes up the mega slot. It still has its weaknesses, but this is definitely one of the more underrated mons of UU.

You make a good summary and analysis of some of the reasons to use Haxorus. To make your post even better, I would mention Haxorus' benefits over Kommo-o, which is another Dragon type that has a lot more bulk and an extra typing compared to Haxorus. Things like Specs Kommo-o can make huge holes against stall too, like Haxorus. Also, since Scizor is the most prominent threat in UU, I would mention things like SD + Z move actually have good chances to kill Scizor.

C -> C+

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-742947876

Initially, I had Sylveon over Umbreon on that slot but I needed an answer to Ghost-types, such as Gengar and Chandelure. Umbreon is an interesting and alternative for Sylveon that exchanges Sylveon's better matchup against Fighting-types, such as Infernape and Mienshao, and Dragon-types, such as Latias, Hydreigon, and most notably, Mega Altaria, for a better matchup against Ghost-types, such as the aforementioned ones, which are pretty good right now. Note that despite losing the Fairy-typing, Umbreon will still be able to switch into the kinds of Latias and Hydreigon and kinda beat them, but less reliably. Here are some relevant calcs against Dragon-types:

Latias

4 SpA Pixilate Sylveon Hyper Voice vs. +1 4 HP / 0 SpD Latias: 134-162 (44.3 - 53.6%) -- 33.6% chance to 2HKO (after a Calm Mind)

0- Atk Umbreon Foul Play vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Latias: 140-168 (46.3 - 55.6%) -- 70.7% chance to 2HKO (with Latias having 0 Atk IVs)

+1 252 SpA Latias Devastating Drake (195 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Umbreon: 255-300 (64.7 - 76.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Hydreigon

252 SpA Choice Specs Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Umbreon: 186-219 (47.2 - 55.5%) -- 17.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Umbreon: 124-147 (31.4 - 37.3%) -- 86.8% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

0- Atk Umbreon Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hydreigon: 52-62 (16 - 19%) -- possible 5HKO after Stealth Rock (you'll eventually beat it... I promise)

Oh, also; Scizor can't freely switch into you without you having to rely on Hidden Power Fire (unlike Sylveon):

Scizor

0- Atk Umbreon Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Scizor: 171-202 (60.8 - 71.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock (max Attack, Adamant nature)

Umbreon did an amazing job that game, getting 3 kills. All in all, I think it should be ranked higher than Pokemon such as Chesnaught and Registeel.

Your post really makes a good analysis of putting Umbreon in the metagame, with relevant comparisons to Sylveon and matchup with Dragons. What I would add to your post is a little more basic information, like Umbreon having much better mixed bulk and an ability to counter balance breakers like Nidoking, so the post is more accessible in general. Also, the big change in the Fighting matchup compared to Sylveon probably should be addressed for a more complete understanding of Umbreon.

Overall, all these posts are fascinating and it's a good chance to see how our fellow UU players understand the metagame. Whether your nomination gets accepted is, in my opinion, less important than playing, understanding, and building our metagame together.

 

[Pak]

Muk-Alola: A to A-
I talked about this a bit in the VR chat so I might as well bring it up here. While Muk is good at its job, pursuiting Latias, non-SubSeed Serp, Gengar, etc., it is incredibly one-dimensional and hands free turns to some top stuff like Mega Aggron, Mega Aerodactyl, Terrakion, and most notably Gliscor. This, along with getting easily worn down by hazards and other passive damage, being vulnerable to physical attackers, and struggling with other special attackers like Specs Hydreigon, Nasty Plot Togekiss, and Specs Primarina often leave the rest of the team handcuffed in covering Muk's faults. Also, it kinda goes without saying that switches to Muk to use Pursuit on Lati or whatever are often ridiculously telegraphed and taken advantage of by the aforementioned goons and stuff like CB Scizor/whatever else. Like I said, it's good at what it does, but its drawbacks leave it as an A- mon at best in my mind.

Tsareena: B- to B
This is something I touched on in my last post a couple months back and since then, Azumarill and Amoonguss have left the tier. With their departure, Tsareena has a lot more breathing room in the team builder. Covering Azu with Tsareena as your grass is no longer an issue and it obviously lost one of its hardest counters in the mushroom. Breloom and Scizor have only gotten better with these changes, meaning CB Tsareena carves out an even sturdier niche in offensively checking the former while acting as a reliable revenge killer to the latter's more offensive sets (or harding in on BP if you're slick). Additionally, with Amoonguss's departure and the tier's overall adaptations to offensive birds (which will probably see a bit of a fall as a result) through the use of Rock-types like Rhyperior, Power Whip has gotten wayyy more spammable. I've been seeing some people mess around with Meadow Plate Rapid Spin sets and some other stuff, showing that it has a bit of versatility but I've yet to test those myself so I won't touch on them too much. Tsareena is flame with the right support right now and is easily on the level of the stuff currently in B.

Reuniclus: Keep C+
I thought I might as well weigh in on this. To me, Reuniclus seems to run into many of the same problems that it did in ORAS: doing little to support the rest of the team, matching up poorly against some common Pokemon, and offering little to nothing defensively, even as a bulkier mon. Building is so tight in SM as is that I could never realistically see myself using this. The set posted earlier is dead in the water against Scizor, Calm Mind Latias, Hydreigon, Alolan Muk, and really any other Steel-type.

yikes

I get the stall matchup argument but if it's near dead weight in most other matchups I really don't see the point. The amount of support it needs to even have a chance at functioning reliably is simply ridiculous. I don't want to turn this into a Magneton rant as it's pretty well-documented how much I hate that mon but say you're building around Reuniclus + Magneton. These 2 mons check approximately 3 Pokemon between them and to beat one of them reliably, you need Eject Button gimmicks for Magneton to trap it. Oh, and you have to fit speed, Stealth Rock, Pursuit, a Ground-type, maybe removal, and decent counterplay to the rest of the meta. I really just don't get the appeal of handcuffing your entire building process by putting a Calm Mind Reuniclus in the first slot of any team and it doesn't deserve to rise any further (could even drop to be quite honest).

 

[Hilomilo]

Ranking Update
Really not a lot changed this time around, though I still thank you all for the productive discussion we saw this time around! Let's hope that can continue, as I feel we've got some interesting discussion topics coming :) Anyways, here's what changed in the last update:

Rises

B+ -> A-

C+ -> B-

C -> C+

C- -> C

UR -> C-

Drops

A -> A-

A- -> B+

B -> B-

C+ -> C

C -> C-

C- -> UR

Reasons for Rises

One of the biggest metagame trends working against Terrakion is the presence of threats such as Scizor, Breloom, and Serperior. However, its Life Orb + Swords Dance and Choice Band sets are seeing an influx in usage due to their fantastic matchup against a lot of very popular and viable archetypes, such as stall and bulky offense. This is increasing Terrakion’s worth and establishing it as a better Fighting-type breaker than Heracross despite some of its weaknesses, which is best reflected with a rise to A-.

Talonflame may have recently dropped to C+, though it’s rising back to B- due to having a useful set of tools that can make it a very underrated and powerful pick. It finds opportunities to set up against the same Pokemon that Moltres is known to check very adequately (Scizor, Breloom, Cobalion, and Gliscor among several others in S through A- ranks alone), and has similar viability to other situational sweepers in B-, such as Cofagrigus and Snorlax, which can require some strenuous support to do their job at times but once adequately supported can be nothing short of game-ending for the opponent once set up. A rise is certainly fair at this stage.

Feraligatr’s main reason for rising is due to the fact that its biggest competition as a Water-type wallbreaker and sweeper in Azumarill is now banned. It of course runs into some problems that can be difficult to circumvent, though a slight upgrade within the rankings reflects that it can do its job more reliably and less situationally without a huge competitor around to outperform it.

Seismitoad’s more offensively inclined Stealth Rock sets have seen increased recent usage on the ladder and are playing a large part in its small rise in the rankings. Through the use of its access to Water Absorb, Sludge Wave, and an interesting Speed tier, it is distinguishing itself from its main competition enough to justify higher placement than before, despite still being generally outclassed in a defensive role.

Silvally-Steel may not see the highest of usage, though its placement in the rankings stems from its proven usefulness on balanced and bulky offensive builds as a unique utility Pokemon that compresses several roles fairly reliably. Its typing allows it to pivot in on a lot of threats to find an opportunity to use Defog, while it can also abuse Parting Shot to pivot around its switch-ins while supporting more offensive teammates. Its lack of recovery is still a massive flaw and it faces heavy competition as a Steel-type, though C- is fair at this stage given its proven niche and advantages over said competition.

Reasons for Drops

Alolan Muk has always struggled to circumvent its weakness of providing large presences like Gliscor and Mega Aggron with free turns. However, it also sacrifices free turns to rising threats in Terrakion, Krookodile, and Rhyperior. This in tandem with being a very one-dimensional Pokemon and having mediocre Speed/Defense stats has decreased its influence enough to make dropping from A fair for now, as its viability as a Pursuit trapper is now more comparable to that of Krookodile’s despite still being a fantastic special sponge.

The consensus behind the ranking council’s decision to drop Moltres almost right after rising it was that it isn’t capable of circumventing its flaws enough to be as defining as what else is in A-. Pairing it with an additional method of hazard removal is absolutely key to its success regardless of the team archetype it’s being fitted on, and it’s also struggling to work around the steady usage in both ladder and tournament play of a lot of its checks, like Nihilego and Rhyperior. It’s still capable of doing amazing things for the teams it’s fitted on, though the amount of support required to allow it to fulfill its role is enough to prove that the initial decision to rise it may have been made prematurely.

Stall is still among the strongest play styles in the tier, though it isn’t as absolutely dominant as in USM’s earlier stages, which hurts Quagsire more than staples like Blissey and Alomomola due to its much more limited splashability. It also has less of a defined niche given that Pyukumuku has increased in usage as an Unaware wall with a lot of very useful tricks up its sleeve. Dropping to B- best reflects what Quagsire can currently bring, as well as its viability versus its main competition.

Veil offense is dropping even further due to the metagame only continuing to work against it. Teambuilding options are fairly limited in this current stage of the metagame, which can make using up two whole slots just to set up Aurora Veil for sweepers quite suboptimal. This is tandem with Hippowdon and Breloom being strong current picks, hyper offense being an awkward play style to utilize, and both Aurorus and Alolan Sandslash being horribly one dimensional in UU is grounds for dropping even lower into the C ranks.

Registeel is dropping to C- to reflect that it’s on an even playing field with Silvally-Steel, which is being ranked in the same place, in the current metagame. It’s still a stronger pick on stall-oriented builds, though Silvally-Steel has notable advantages over it in the forms of a much better offensive presence, and most crucially, its access to tools such as Parting Shot and Defog. The two are similar enough in viability to be in the same rank, which for Registeel means dropping is warranted.

Froslass is losing its placement in the rankings entirely due to simply not having a niche valuable enough to warrant usage in current UU. It is often outperformed by other suicide leads due to its lack of a reliable way of damaging foes and its need to take multiple turns to set Spikes, which isn’t super realistic for something so frail. When you consider that the archetype it tries providing for isn’t even one that’s particularly flourishing, it makes sense to unrank Froslass, which while not terrible just isn’t up to snuff with anything else in even C-.

Rejected Nominations and Discussion Points

Swampert A- -> A
While Swampert is an effective Stealth Rock user that can check a lot of prominent threats, it faces a decent amount of competition from the up-and-coming Rhyperior, and it lets the increasingly dominant Grass-types such as Breloom and Serperior in for free if not running an Ice-type attack. Swampert is simply not dominant enough to warrant a placement in A right now, and its flaws mean that it is perfectly fine in A- still.

Mega Houndoom B+ -> B
This one didn’t receive too much discussion in the thread, though it was on the discussion slate and the ranking council ultimately voted against dropping Mega Houndoom. Despite the larger weakness to Breloom than its main competition in Salazzle, Mega Houndoom has a lot more self-sustainability as a sweeper due to its much better bulk and access to a larger variety of attacks necessary to cover the metagame. While not wildly popular, it’s still a strong enough pick to remain comfortable at the top of the B rankings and it still has a slight edge over Salazzle.

Stakataka B+ -> B
Although Stakataka has seen decreasing usage, it has not decreased any further in its viability. It is still an excellent late-game cleaner for bulky offensive teams that require a check to Pokemon like Latias and Mega Pidgeot, and it also has gained a niche as a defensive Stealth rock user on certain stall teams, which adds another layer to its viability.

Crawdaunt B- -> B
While this nomination received a lot of support in the thread, the ranking council ultimately decided very clearly against rising Crawdaunt. Despite its decreased competition, Crawdaunt just doesn’t fit into the metagame quite as well as before, given the plethora of faster and powerful Water-resists running around, Breloom heavily pressuring it, and Mega Altaria and Hydreigon having highly established places in the metagame. All in all, this justifies staying in B- for now, despite possibly being one of the better Pokemon of the subrank.

Snorlax B- -> B
Snorlax is a very underrated sweeper and once it’s boosted up it can be extremely difficult to power through. However, what justifies staying in B- for the time being is the specific support it requires in order to do its job. If it’s running its Rest set, it needs support in the form of Pokemon capable of taking on the tier’s many Rock- and Steel-types that trouble it, while the Recycle set is also easily overcome by status. The viability and presence of Fighting-types in general is also a thorn in Snorlax’s side, and overall makes its current rank reasonable despite its prowess.

Yanmega C+ -> B-
An Endure + Reversal set could use some more exploration to see how it fits in the metagame, though until then Yanmega’s main niche is still its prowess as a wallbreaker with Choice Specs, which is a niche that’s perfectly represented with a C+ rank. Yanmega’s horribly lacking defensive utility and need for support due to its Stealth Rock weakness is still enough to prevent it from cracking into the B ranks, as these flaws offset its power enough to keep placement alongside the likes of Venomoth and Tornadus reasonable.

Umbreon C -> C+
Like Snorlax, Umbreon is held back by the several dominant Fighting-types of the tier, like Infernape, Breloom, and Cobalion, which in addition to its massive vulnerability to Fairy-types and the ever-present Scizor, rationalizes staying in C. Its strengths over its main competition in Sylveon were very adequately highlighted in its nomination post, though currently those strengths benefit it about as much as they disadvantage it and staying C reflects this well.

Discussion Points

Gengar and Chandelure shifting to be in the same rank, or switching ranks
The consensus behind this possible change is that Gengar and Chandelure’s viability as Ghost-type special attackers is relatively the same, which should be reflected with either a rise to A- for Chandelure or a drop to B+ for Gengar. Chandelure’s benefits over Gengar primarily include its better overall offensive typing, access to better abilities, and the ability to power through a lot of traditional special sponges, like Blissey and Alolan Muk, with the right set. However, Gengar’s ability to more adequately pressure Fairy-types is key, especially alongside its much better Speed tier, access to both Taunt and Destiny Bond, and better overall coverage. Whether the two are on an even playing field or one is better than the other isn’t clear, which makes it worth discussing in depth.

Krookodile A- -> A
Krookodile compresses a lot of roles extremely nicely in the current metagame. A fast and powerful Earthquake, an Electric immunity, Knock Off, Intimidate, Stealth Rock, and versatility between sets are all amazing traits for just one Pokemon to possess right now. However, what could reasonably keep it in A- is the fact that it often succumbs to some of the biggest presences in the tier, such as Mega Altaria, Breloom, Serperior, and Gliscor, which is at times problematic for both Krookodile and the rest of its team.

Rotom-C B+ -> A-
This guy has seen an increase in usage as one of the tier’s most reliable offensive defoggers, and whether or not it should rise even further is worth discussing. It has great matchups against the majority of popular entry hazard setters, and capitalizes on the continued rise of Ground-types in order to combat Mega Manectric. However, Rotom-C has a few things working against it that could make staying in B+ fair, such as its average stats across the board, often falling victim to the several Pokemon that outspeed it, and at times being strapped for moveslots.

Tsareena B- -> B
Tsareena is continuing to establish a place for itself in the metagame, and could very well rise due to its consistently proven prowess as a wallbreaker. Ground- and Water-types are both quite popular and viable right now, which has increased how easily spammable its powerful STAB Power Whip is. It also has increased its versatility in that Meadow Plate + Rapid Spin sets are seeing more usage. However, arguments against rising, such as how easy it can be to offensively pressure and the presence of the likes of Togekiss and Mega Aggron, certainly make this a worthy discussion point.

Alolan Marowak B- -> C+
Alolan Marowak is being brought up for a drop into the C rankings due to just being a generally underwhelming teambuilding option. It admittedly has a devastating amount of power, though it struggles rather heavily to find opportunities to come in and begin wallbreaking, has no good way of working around its simply awful Speed tier, and also doesn’t appreciate Mega Manectric’s recently decreased viability. It just has very little going for it aside from its power, which is grounds for a potential ranking downgrade.

Reuniclus C+ -> B-
Reuniclus is an often overlooked bulky sweeper that while lacking in usage, has a very strong matchup against a strong play style in stall. Its ability to win certain matchups upon merely setting up is possibly enough to bring it up a rank. However, there really isn’t any denying that Reuniclus requires very strenuous support to get its job done against teams that aren’t stall-oriented. Its vulnerabilities to Scizor, Dark-types, and faster and powerful attackers are mandatory to cover when building with it and can lead to serious limitations in regards to what specifically you can afford to fit on. Due to how reliant it is on the many means of support often required to let it sweep, staying in C+ is a definite possibility.

Cloyster C- -> UR
Cloyster doesn’t have any proven worth in the tier due to its nearly nonexistent usage. In addition to this, Barbaracle provides it with a lot of competition as a Shell Smash user due to better matchups against popular team archetypes. Moreover, due to Cloyster's horrible Special Defense and average Speed and Attack complicating setup opportunities, it has significant opportunity cost compared to other sweepers. This is all enough to considering unranking it entirely, though it still has tools that aren’t possessed by any other Pokemon in UU and it could very well just require more exploration.

Honchkrow C- -> UR
Honchkrow is another underwhelming pick in the current metagame that could very well be more trouble than it’s worth. It has awful defense, which leads to longevity problems in tandem with Brave Bird recoil, and a mediocre Speed tier that often leaves it reliant on Sucker Punch to actually damage foes. It’s also easily overwhelmed by the vast majority of the offensive metagame, and suffers from an inability to muscle past bulky foes like Mega Aggron and Mega Altaria without crippling itself in the process.

Hope you guys enjoyed! Be sure to keep the good discussion coming, and if you have any questions about a nomination that wasn't addressed in this update feel free to let me know on my wall, as sometimes it can be hard to cover everything that gets brought up. Be kind to one another, and happy posting!

 

[Jade]

haven't posted besides disagreeing, so here we go

i think that gengar should drop to b+, but chandelure should stay b+ as well. they are on about even grounds right now. the reason i disagree with chandelure moving up is due to its rocks and pursuit weakness. not to mention it basically lets in hydreigon for free, which is never good. gengar can still annoy teams with sub fightinium z, but i think a drop is fair.

i disagree with this. as mentioned in the post above, it really struggles against things like mega altaria, hydreigon, breloom, gliscor, and more. it offers decent role compression and is splashable, but not a rank, although its uupl usage is quite impressive. new defoggers like rotom-c and new competition as a ground type rocker from rhyperior don't help its case either.

speaking of rotom-c, i think it should stay b+. it gives most dragons that aren't concerned about will-o-wisp free turns and suffers from a severe case of 4mss. it also gives grass types like celebi and serperior time to wreck havoc. its stats are also rather mediocre besides its defensive and special attack stat and 86 speed doesn't help either.

i definitely agree with tsareena rising. though i think cb is the superior set right now, meadow plate rapid spin is also very good. both sets do crazy things like doing 60% to breloom with power whip. it can even function as an emergency scizor check since hjk does about 80% and queenly majesty blocks bullet punch.

to be honest, just send this thing straight to c. even in comparison to the c+ mons it's underwhelming. it dislikes mega manectric not being as good as it once was, and even then, is very easy to chip. a fire type that can't outspeed scizor is just super meh. the only thing this has going for it is its wallbreaking power, which isn't enough reason to keep it in the b- ranks anymore.

i disagree with this nom. won't dawdle too much on this since i already said why i disagreed. as mentioned by Pak, the set posted lets in hydreigon, scizor, and many more things in for free and is deadweight vs anything that isn't stall. not to mention if you decide to pair it with magneton to get rid of steels, you still have to fit pursuit, rocks, speed control, a ground type, and make sure you have a decent m/u vs the rest of the meta. it also offers no defensive utility and is overrall very restricting to even build around.

i don't know why this hasn't been sent to the shadow realm of UR yet. it's specially frail and easily revenged by the common scarfers, is completely reliant on its z-move to hit bulky waters, and lacks any set up opportunities as opposed to barbaracle, which at least has a spdef stat and can also be an emergency bird check which allows it to set up easier.

oh look, another unmon that hasn't been sent to the shadow realm. it's completely reliant on sucker punch to hit faster things, which makes it struggle especially against mega altaria and hydreigon. it also has severe longevity issues due to brave bird recoil + potential life orb recoil + stealth rocks. send these two to the shadow realm.

a question and a nom:

why is buzzer still in b-? it's a loom check i guess, but it dies to jolly rock tomb after rocks. it's also susceptible to many common threats like mega altaria, hydreigon, rotom-c, and more.

i think blastoise should rise back to b. you might say it's outclassed by primarina/starmie/tentacruel, however it has a few things over both. mega blastoise can get past empoleon with aura sphere and is also not as physically frail as primarina is. it's also a better spinner imo due to its better m/u against spinblockers. starmie is susceptible to scarfed ghosts while blastoise isn't and can discourage spinblockers from coming in with dark pulse. as for tentacruel, tentacruel cannot spin safely against the majority of the meta due to its ground type weakness. tentacruel is also physically frail and struggles against metagame staples such as latias. mega blastoise also deals with mega aerodactyl better than all three of these do, so i think it should rise back to b. being ranked with things like cofagrigus and the aforementioned buzzer is just ridiculous.

that's all for now, ciao!

 

[Moutemoute]

From A- to A : Disagree

Even if Krookodile is better than before I don't think it deserves to be A. As Juuno said there is a plethora of Pokemon that can deal with Krookodile like Gliscor, Hydreigon, Altaria-Mega and even Breloom or Cobalion. Unlike some Ground Type like Swampert or Hippowdon, Krookodile is only a soft check to Manectric-Mega / Raikou which mean that you need to be 100% sure that the oppo click Electric STAB and not HP Ice nor Flamethrower/Overheat/Z-Hyper Beam.

From B+ to A- : Agree

Rotom-Mow is quite amazing atm. Electric/Grass is an amazing dual STAB which allows it to threaten common Electric Switch-in (like Swampert, Hippowdon, Rhyperior etc..). It's also a good Volt Switch abuser and can be a pain for a lot of Stall that rely on Quagsire to deal with Volt-Switch.

I also would like to do my own nomination :

From Ø to C- / C / C+

Glalie-Mega is a niche Pokemon but I think it deserves a rank around C. It's one of the biggest threats for Stall because Return / Freeze Dry wallbreak Blissey/Mola/Quagsire/Gliscor/Crobat/Slowbro-Mega. It can Spikes vs most of Stall Spin / Defog which is a real benefit.

Heres a replay that shows how good this Pokemon can be vs Stall : https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-743735218

Glalie-Mega (M) @ Glalitite
Ability: Refrigerate
EVs: 228 Atk / 28 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Spikes (if you have another Spikes user then you can put Hidden Power [Fire] or Earthquake)
- Return
- Ice Shard
- Freeze-Dry

28 SpA Glalie-Mega Freeze-Dry vs. 40 HP / 216 SpD Alomomola: 236-282 (49 - 58.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after 1 layer of Spikes and Leftovers recovery
228 Atk Refrigerate Glalie-Mega Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 336-396 (47 - 55.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after 1 layer of Spikes and Leftovers recovery

 

[justdrew]

First off I’d like to thank Hilomilo for all the work he does for this thread. I don’t think he gets enough credit for the long posts he makes.

Right now I think that chandelure is the most viable ghost type in this tier. When you match up these two Pokémon by role they pretty much have all the same roles. Choice scarf, choice specs, and stall breaker. Keep in mind most of the it’s situational whether one of these mons are better. Obviously gengar is the better candidate because it is over 50 points faster than chandelure. For choice specs chandelure does much more damage making it the better choice. And for stall breaker I would say chandelure reigns supreme due to the fact that it can boost using calm mind. As gengar relies on taunt and focus blast to break through blissey and has weaker special attack than chandelure, there are ways to stall it out moves. With the added bonus of being type resistant to steel, I think chandelure deserves to be higher ranked than gengar.

I don’t think krookodile has the tools to threaten the walls in the meta right now. When thinking about it, krookodile is walled by swampert, hippowdon, gliscor, mega altaria, and breloom. These are just a few of the key players in this meta that give krookodile hell. With no reliable recovery, and it’s scarf and band sets being underwhelming, I don’t think krookodile should rise in the vr ranks.

Whenever anyone talks about UU all you here is, “too many bulky waters”. Or people want a Pokémon that can defog on common rockers. Right here you have a Pokémon that destroys bulky waters like no other, and can defog on common rockers like hippowdon, gliscor, seismitoad, and swampert. Rotom c has set versatility with specs, scarf, z move, or even a bulkier set with iapapa berry. Right now rotom c is a better volt turner than mega man in my opinion.

Carrying off my discussion about rotom c. Grass types rule the UU tier. I am also an avid hater of stall because it is the most consistent strategy in this tier. Tsareena beats stall, tsareena forces out rockers, tsareena has recovery, tsareena has uturn and decent coverage. Definitely should rise.

Marowak is slow and weak to rocks. As a decently bulky fire type it can’t wall Pokémon like scizor and breloom due to spore, knock off, and rock tomb respectively. Low special defense allows electric types to do solid damage with coverage moves. Even serperior has the ability to blow it back under the right circumstances. Trick room is an extremely inconsistent strategy which decrease marowaks viability even further. I really never liked this Pokémon and it’s proved that it isn’t good in this tier.

Hearing everyone else’s opinions I have become unsure on whether this mon should rise. I stand by the fact that it is the best stall breaker in the tier. Reuniclus can also enter in on hazards free of charge, it can eat toxics, it can enter in on most bulky walls. Is this enough for it to rise into B-. I think it is enough but with the fact that hydreigon, scizor, Alolan Muk, and even breloom with spore, can threaten this Pokémon, I remain unsure.

Outsped by some scarfers. Not a huge threat if not adamant. Walled by the multitude of bulky waters in this tier. Revenge killed by breloom. Weak to rocks. Cloyster is pretty much unviable in every role it has including a spiker. There is no way to innovate with this Pokémon, everyone knows what it is going to do when they see it. It should have left vr a long time ago.

I am sorry misa :/ it is time to clear C- of what shouldn’t be there. I completely agree with milo. Rocks weak, kills itself with every single move it clicks, brave bird and life orb nonsense. Although it is a powerful attacker it is “killed” by hippowdon and gliscor, other Pokémon like infernape and cobalion who resist sucker punch can also revenge it. Although it can be built around to cater its needs and sweep effectively, isn’t that every Pokémon? I think it should join cloyster in the “shadow realm” as Juuno puts it.

Thanks

 

[Freeroamer]

I think there's a lot of unfair criticism regarding Krookodile about how it handles certain defensive pokemon. Considering by far and away the most popular set is the Choice Scarf set, I'm not hugely bothered if the opposing team packs a switch in because I'm not using this set to break opposing teams cores open, I'm using it to keep a bunch of faster mons such as Mega Aero and Manectric in check and to Pursuit trap certain threats, which I consider it to do quite well. Also even if the opponent does have a switch such as a Swampert or a Hydreigon, thanks to the utility of Knock Off I'm still making progress in the game by knocking these pokemon of items that they're usually pretty reliant on (unless Hydreigon is Z of course). It's not like Scarf Lati, Hydreigon or Infernape never face this issue either, it's a natural flaw of scarfers but they all compensate by bringing some added utility (Krookodile: Pursuit+Knock, Latias: Healing Wish/Trick/Sleep Talk, Infernape and Hydreigon: U-Turn). There also remains the option that if you do want to lure a certain defensive pokemon, Krookodile probably has the tools available to do it with Waterium Z being ran in the past for Gliscor, Superpower can hit Hydreigon, Tectonic Rage in general is very strong and can apply a lot of pressure to common pokemon in the metagame (max HP Mega Altaria is easily 2HKOed by Earthquake into Tectonic Rage). While it's not the longest lasting Stealth Rock user, there remains the fact that it's very difficult to actively remove rocks against, thanks to it's decent Speed and Taunt, which in turns allows the offensive builds that it fits on to immediately apply pressure to defensive teams. It definitely has flaws but I think being in A would be a fairer and more accurate representation of where it currently sits in this metagame.

 

[vivalospride]

I am sorry misa :/ it is time to clear C- of what shouldn’t be there. I completely agree with milo. Rocks weak, kills itself with every single move it clicks, brave bird and life orb nonsense. Although it is a powerful attacker it is “killed” by hippowdon and gliscor, other Pokémon like infernape and cobalion who resist sucker punch can also revenge it. Although it can be built around to cater its needs and sweep effectively, isn’t that every Pokémon? I think it should join cloyster in the “shadow realm” as Juuno puts it.

oh look, another unmon that hasn't been sent to the shadow realm. it's completely reliant on sucker punch to hit faster things, which makes it struggle especially against mega altaria and hydreigon. it also has severe longevity issues due to brave bird recoil + potential life orb recoil + stealth rocks. send these two to the shadow realm.

sigh, s/o to vso
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-735428313

I didn't wanna come back to this thread but I have come in to bring all Honchkrow hate to a halt.

Obviously this mon has got some issues because if it didn't have some issues it'd be higher than fuckin C-. Yes, it relies too heavily on Sucker Punch to kill most shit due to it's garbage speed tier. Yes, it literally kills itself while killing things, even moreso then Darm because of the Life orb recoil on top of spamming Brave Bird to kill shit. Yes, it's weak to rocks. But y'all are being harsh af with this shit, don't send this mon to the shadow realm and definitely don't call it an unmon.

Flying + Fighting coverage + Priority is so fuckin good and can legit run through teams that come unprepared (as you can see in the replay), especially when it's being utilized on a pokemon with 125 Atk, base 120 STAB, STAB priority, and Moxie. It can trap things with Pursuit (which is like one of the most broken moves in UU rn tbh) and get a free Moxie boost... and I promise +1 Adamant Life Orb Honchkrow hurts like dicks. I didn't find this mon underwhelming at all when I was playing around with it recently, I actually found it to be a pleasant surprise as to how well it performed.

Yes, it is revenged by things like Infernape and Cobalion. But what is this saying? Scizor is the "most viable" mon in the tier (at least to me). But that thing is revenged by every fire type, Starmie, fuckin Magneton, and a bunch of other shit... so how valid is this argument in regards of calling it an unmon that should be removed from the vr. I understand y'alls' arguments and I don't even necessarily disagree with a lot of it. However calling it an unmon and saying it should be sent to the shadow realm is absurd to me. I 100% believe Honchkrow deserves it's spot in C- as a neat, hard hitting, pursuit trapper and sweeper that can be run on offensive teams.

shoutout honchkrow and Amane Misa I love y'all.

 

[dingbat]

Haven't really followed the meta too much outside of UUPL, but here it is.

Stay in B+ | B+ --> A-,

A- --> B+ | Stay in A-: Personally don't care whether Gengar drops to B+ or Chandy rises to A- but imo Chandy isn't straight up better than Gengar yet. Many players are realizing how potent Hex is on Gengar rn, as it's more than capable of breaking through a lot of shit that otherwise don't care about Shadow Ball, something that Chandelure has a more difficult time pulling off due to its lower speed.

B- --> B: Really underrated 'mon rn; it annoys the hell outta bulky offense/balance harder than Primarina does rn because of its considerably better physical bulk and ability to pressure mons like Scizor better.

Stay in C+: As much as I love Reuniclus, it still has tons of issues keeping up with the current meta to justify rising to B-. Despite its good matchup vs stall, it has a much more difficult time functioning against every other playstyle, as they all pack 'mons like Zor, Dreigon, or any decently strong Z-move user that effectively fucks over any chance of setting up and sweeping.

Don't really care if it dies: Bird is the word tho just sayin

UR --> C-: Probably should have gotten ranked at least 4 months ago when Sage first nominated this. Opportunity cost and longevity are obviously two huge issues with this mon because you basically need to build around it and 100 speed doesn't cut it a lot of the time, but with sufficient support, it does a good job of pressuring opposing teams between spikes and its potent Ice moves.

UR --> C-: Very niche 'mon as well, but it packs in qualities that definitely make it a viable pick for certain balance/stall teams. It serves as a usable check to 'mons like Breloom while moves including Giga Drain/HP Fire/Knock/Sleep Powder/Leech Seed give it a variety of options to cater to its team needs. Last of all, regenerator is a broken ability that no other viable Grass-type in this tier possesses.

 

[Smallsmallrose]

Alright bois time for the first Smallsmallrose VR post ever, since I've been more passionate about the VR now than I have been in quite some time.

UR to C/C-: Agree. I think anyone who's known me for a while has heard the term "Why isn't Mega Glalie Ranked yet?" at least once. I've been using a different spread from moutemoute, but it still does the same damage to defensive teams. Freeze dry is a fantastic move and Glalie is arguably its best user. I've been experimenting with other things too like HP fire, Explosion spikes setter, etc. and this mon has a lot of untapped potential. its held back by a shallow movepool, taking a mega slot, and a poor defensive typing, but its offensive applications are through the damn roof. And is more than enough to warrant a ranking in C or C-

To A-: I think Chandelure has cemented itself as a prevalent member of our current meta, and is more than deserving of the same rank as Gengar. It checks many trends like Scizor and Breloom, while also being able to put in work vs stall with almost any set, as even a choiced trick or momentum filled memento can cause problems for passive teams, let alone the stallbreaker which I'd argue is one of the more effective solo-stallbreakers right now with how many measures stall is making against flying and fighting types. Its speed vs Gengar has been a point of debate, but superior bulk and special attack more than make up for the 30 or so point difference in their agility, which is more than expected of two pokemon with very similar BST. I think these are all grounds for Chandelure to move up to A-

I'll discuss these under the same umbrella, since they're possibly moving up for very similar reasons. Grass types are exceptional right now. WIth every team carrying some form of ground and/or water type, these pokemon always have something to do, and spore immunities are to die for in this Breloom-infested hell we call UU. Stripping pokemon like Swampert and Rhyperior of their rocks while forcing them out is a huge momentum save, and makes them very easy to fit on teams with pokemon that bait those very ground types in like Mega Manectric. Most of their weaknesses can also be rooted out by the fact they're pivots, and can accel past many pokemon they're weak to just by having proper team support. These two in particular also stand out among grass types for not having a terrible weakness to Scizor. WIth Rotom-C being a Bullet Punch resistance and Tsareena an immunity, both of these pokemon are very capable of even revenging Scizor in some cases, and aren't threatened by it outside of a slower moving bug stab. I've also seen plenty of innovation and flexibility with these mons, Tsareena investing in non-choiced items, letting it run other options like synthesis to help sustain it and frees it up to be a better hazard remover, and Rotom C's wide array of options over just running thunderbolt, such as coverage hidden powers, status moves, trick x Choice item, and I've even seen a pain split here or there. While this does create some nasty 4MSS, that never stopped any pokemon with enough options to create a 4MSS problem, and shows that Rotom-C can conform to its team. In conclusion, I think BOTH Tsareena and Rotom-C should move up a rank, with Tsareena moving up to B and Rotom-C moving up to A-.

And now, for my OWN Nomination.

To B: And now, we come to the other Rotom sibling. I've been REALLY liking this mon lately. Flying checks are still very much on demand, despite a slight decline since Rhyperior's rise to power. Rotom-H is one of the better flying checks right now in my opinion, since it is very functionally different from most other checks of rock/steel typing, which can sometimes cause a bit of a stitch for team structures aiming to target flying checks like the aformentioned Rhyperior and others like it, primarily through using flying breakers with certain offensive or defensive measures to rock types. It also handles a number of lures or options planned to break through other flying checks, such as a fightinium togekiss for rock/steel types. In addition to all this, Its also an electric type that isn't significantly threatened by the currently highly used Krookodile. With an immunity to Earthquake, and no real danger from knock off if its holding a Z-crystal (The best set right now, in my opinion.) It forces Krookodile to use Stone edge to threaten it, which can make it fall into a predictable pattern, or let Rotom-H even beat it if its coming in on Krook instead of the other way around. Not to mention the fire fang Krook being adapted for Loom and Scizor loses even harder to this mon. Hippo also has a poor matchup here since it NEEDS toxic to defeat Rotom-H, and even then it could be punched through with the immense power of (Z-)Overheat if its not careful. And while not common, it even checks Mega Steelix instead of the other way around with a 4x steel resistance and ground immunity, an embarrassing fate for an electric check. On top of this, Rotom-H handles a number of other meta trends than just the flying types it checks so well. Its more than a match for its aforementioned sibling, Rotom-C, and handle a number of other meta trends such as Scizor, Mega Manectric, Moltres in particular, Klefki, Aggron-Mega, and can even handle some of the more passive bulky waters like Mantine and Alomomola if its careful of scald and chip. I think Rotom-H is an exceptional mon right now that is outperforming its B- ranked cohorts such as Talonflame, Magneton, Mega Beedrill, etc. that require very specific teams and/or support to work well, or just see downright barren usage. Being a unique yet still very effective check to flyings, some grasses, and steels while also being able to handle certain common electric checks such as Hippo and Krook and certain common fire checks like Mantine and Alomomola sets it aside as both a fire and electric mon, and more than makes up for pitfalls it may face. such as being both checked by, and facing stiff competition as a flying check from various rock types such as Nihilego and Rhyperior. While nothing can stop it from being checked by them, I said before that it sets itself aside as a flying check at least with its unique typing and coverage. It may struggle with dragon types a bit too, but it can volt switch on those at least, or carry certain status moves to curb them from harding in. It also struggles with more offensively oriented water types, but none of those can hard in on it so boldly. The currently prominent careful Gliscor is another source of heartache, but it has to be careful of Z-Overheat if chipped, and/or HP ice coverage. Gliscor also struggles to do anything back to Rotom-H if its not Toxic. With how much it can do in this current meta, its unique typing, and how it can play around various answers to electric or fire types, I think Rotom-H is more than deserving of B rank.

 

[justdrew]

Magneton to C-

I honestly don’t think this needs much explanation. The only reason Magneton has the sliver of viability it has is because it traps and kills scizor. You can argue that it also traps empoleon but it is only used to trap scizor. Frankly it is a waste of a team slot or even two if you use eject button. For a steel type it is quite frail, and has no capability to switch into attacks that aren’t steel type. With scizor gone no one would ever use magneton, therefore I think it should move indefinately to C- tier, and if scizor ever gets banned for some reason magneton should move permanently to D tier until it drops to RU.

Edit: a lot of people are passionate about C- being too big a drop for magneton. I also think C tier would be fitting.

 

[Smallsmallrose]

Magneton to C-

I honestly don’t think this needs much explanation. The only reason Magneton has the sliver of viability it has is because it traps and kills scizor. You can argue that it also traps empoleon but it is only used to trap scizor. Frankly it is a waste of a team slot or even two if you use eject button. For a steel type it is quite frail, and has no capability to switch into attacks that aren’t steel type. With scizor gone no one would ever use magneton, therefore I think it should move indefinately to C- tier, and if scizor ever gets banned for some reason magneton should move permanently to D tier until it drops to RU.

Edit: a lot of people are passionate about C- being too big a drop for magneton. I also think C tier would be fitting.

I disgree with this drop. If Magneton was a Scizor measure, and nothing but a Scizor measure, then it would be avoided like the plague unless a team got 6-0ed by Scizor at team preview. Magneton is a lot more complex than it is on paper. Like for example, why does it have a scarf set to begin with if specs is the only set that guarantees an HP fire OHKO? Because Magneton can win games with the correct partners. First lets knock off the myth that it only defeats Scizor, sure, Scizor is the main target of Magneton, but that doesn't mean its the only one. Kinda like how people associate A-muk as a Lati measure despite having a dozen other trap targets. (These two are quite similar actually, A-muk and Mag. both are very linear trappers of an omni-present S-rank mon that can get taken advantage of in certain matchups.) But before I derail things too far, I will get back on the topic of Mag itself. I mentioned the scarf set earlier, which chips Coba. Big deal right? Who needs to chip Coba? Well, when say, a shuca Cobalion is the only thing standing between something like a Haxorus and victory, Magneton suddenly looks a lot more impressive. Just one volt switch, and suddenly a DD Haxorus clicks the freest Outrage of its life since it can kill Coba from 50 with LO or Z. Many, Many teams run steel types, and only an extremely small handful of them have any form of recovery on their own. With a lot of these steels, chip is the name of the game. And nothing chips steels like Magneton. If your opponent is running Mega Aggron or Doublade as the primary Lati check, then what happens when a Magneton rolls up and chunks it with a specs T-bolt? Suddenly they're fumbling, and with Magneton in the ring, these recovery-less steels can't run and hide behind the wish support they're commonly run with. And putting these mons in incredibly chipped positions is more than worth losing Magneton in the process if such mons have methods of killing it. Magneton also preys upon passive steels, being able to take out Pokemon like Klefki and Bronzong. And while they're not astronomically common, pretty much paves the way for mons they check to run through since most of the time those pokemon will be the main check, or perhaps even sole check to pokemon like Lati, Aero, etc. Hell, I see a lot of teams with Klefki as at least half the method of speed control. While this isn't inherently bad, these teams are suddenly very scared by a cleaner x a Mag. You also mentioned Empoleon as a trap target. This is a lot bigger than you make it sound, as Empoleon is a very impressive blanket mon in the current meta, handling various dragons and flying types for the teams its on, while also being a pretty prominent hazard setter or remover. Removing Empoleon scott free means that their team might suddenly become glaringly weak to one of Magneton's partners, or even just assist you in the hazard war since a dead Empo means a dead rocker or defogger. Its true that Magneton is PRIMARILY run for Scizor, but saying its dead weight when a Scizor isn't on the other team, is completely false. Any team overly reliant on ANY steel type as a check to certain threats is incredibly threatened by Magneton's presence, as it can whittle away at their ability to be that crazy blanket check. Yeah, Magneton is a one or two trick pony, incredibly linear, and taken advantage of by certain teams, but its one trick is a really damn good trick. Any pokemon that can just downright remove an S-ranked pokemon from the game with proper play is more than befitting of its niche, And Magneton really tests your opponent as a builder by seeing if they have a backup plan beyond that now chipped steel. Look through your teams on builder. And if you even have to ask yourself: "How do I counter X/Y/Z if I didn't have my steel type?" then Your team is Magneton weak. There aren't many trappers that can stand tall as standalone mons (Clean Duggy and Gothitelle in PU amirite) But its ability to whittle or completely remove a barrier to your wincons from the game makes it an incredible support for those wincons. While its primarily used for Scizor at the end of the day, I think Magneton's ability to trap Non-Scizor steels is unexplored and underplayed, and it should retain its rank for now, or at least not drop as harshly as you're proposing.

 

[Adaam]

I disgree with this drop. If Magneton was a Scizor measure, and nothing but a Scizor measure, then it would be avoided like the plague unless a team got 6-0ed by Scizor at team preview. Magneton is a lot more complex than it is on paper. Like for example, why does it have a scarf set to begin with if specs is the only set that guarantees an HP fire OHKO? Because Magneton can win games with the correct partners. First lets knock off the myth that it only defeats Scizor, sure, Scizor is the main target of Magneton, but that doesn't mean its the only one. Kinda like how people associate A-muk as a Lati measure despite having a dozen other trap targets. (These two are quite similar actually, A-muk and Mag. both are very linear trappers of an omni-present S-rank mon that can get taken advantage of in certain matchups.) But before I derail things too far, I will get back on the topic of Mag itself. I mentioned the scarf set earlier, which chips Coba. Big deal right? Who needs to chip Coba? Well, when say, a shuca Cobalion is the only thing standing between something like a Haxorus and victory, Magneton suddenly looks a lot more impressive. Just one volt switch, and suddenly a DD Haxorus clicks the freest Outrage of its life since it can kill Coba from 50 with LO or Z. Many, Many teams run steel types, and only an extremely small handful of them have any form of recovery on their own. With a lot of these steels, chip is the name of the game. And nothing chips steels like Magneton. If your opponent is running Mega Aggron or Doublade as the primary Lati check, then what happens when a Magneton rolls up and chunks it with a specs T-bolt? Suddenly they're fumbling, and with Magneton in the ring, these recovery-less steels can't run and hide behind the wish support they're commonly run with. And putting these mons in incredibly chipped positions is more than worth losing Magneton in the process if such mons have methods of killing it. Magneton also preys upon passive steels, being able to take out Pokemon like Klefki and Bronzong. And while they're not astronomically common, pretty much paves the way for mons they check to run through since most of the time those pokemon will be the main check, or perhaps even sole check to pokemon like Lati, Aero, etc. Hell, I see a lot of teams with Klefki as at least half the method of speed control. While this isn't inherently bad, these teams are suddenly very scared by a cleaner x a Mag. You also mentioned Empoleon as a trap target. This is a lot bigger than you make it sound, as Empoleon is a very impressive blanket mon in the current meta, handling various dragons and flying types for the teams its on, while also being a pretty prominent hazard setter or remover. Removing Empoleon scott free means that their team might suddenly become glaringly weak to one of Magneton's partners, or even just assist you in the hazard war since a dead Empo means a dead rocker or defogger. Its true that Magneton is PRIMARILY run for Scizor, but saying its dead weight when a Scizor isn't on the other team, is completely false. Any team overly reliant on ANY steel type as a check to certain threats is incredibly threatened by Magneton's presence, as it can whittle away at their ability to be that crazy blanket check. Yeah, Magneton is a one or two trick pony, incredibly linear, and taken advantage of by certain teams, but its one trick is a really damn good trick. Any pokemon that can just downright remove an S-ranked pokemon from the game with proper play is more than befitting of its niche, And Magneton really tests your opponent as a builder by seeing if they have a backup plan beyond that now chipped steel. Look through your teams on builder. And if you even have to ask yourself: "How do I counter X/Y/Z if I didn't have my steel type?" then Your team is Magneton weak. There aren't many trappers that can stand tall as standalone mons (Clean Duggy and Gothitelle in PU amirite) But its ability to whittle or completely remove a barrier to your wincons from the game makes it an incredible support for those wincons. While its primarily used for Scizor at the end of the day, I think Magneton's ability to trap Non-Scizor steels is unexplored and underplayed, and it should retain its rank for now.

Minor nitpick: Doublade cannot be trapped since it’s a Ghost-type. That being said, I do not think Magneton’s been unexplored and a drop is more than warranted. There aren’t many other ways to use it then pair it with something revenge killed by Bullet Punch and running dual STABs + HP Fire.

Yes Magneton can trap more Steel-types besides Scizor, but without wasting another team slot on Eject Button shenanigans it comes in safely on 0 of them. Mega Aggron Earthquakes it, Cobalion clicks Close Combat, Scizor clicks anything but Bullet Punch, Bronzong takes nothing and 1v1s it with Psywave + Protect or EQ, and Empoleon 2HKOs with Scald and isn’t even OHKOd. In most high level gameplay involving Magneton it ends up being a game of cat and mouse because no competent player is going to willingly let Magneton come in for free, so half the time it just sits in the back waiting for its moment which never comes.

You also bring up the point “How do I counter X/Y/Z without my Steel?” The answer to this is hopefully you have more than one Pokemon to deal with “X/Y/Z.” If losing Scizor makes you auto lose to DD Altaria then the team is bad and you probably would have won with something else in Magneton’s team slot. I’m also skeptical of how often people rely on Magneton to trap a Steel-type that isn’t Scizor. Yeah it dents some others but that’s just coincidence. If Scizor didn’t exist, then Drew is right and there’s next to no benefit to use it.

The most damning point against it imo is the opportunity cost of wasting a Steel-type slot on something that checks literally nothing that other Steels do. Pidgeot OHKOs it, Aero OHKOs, Latias sets up on it, Altaria OHKOs and outspeeds it, and so on. Teambuilding then becomes extremely awkward defensively since stacking Steels opens up more weaknesses that just aren’t worth it. So while a team overly reliant on a Steel may be weak to Magneton, any team using Magneton is gonna be weak to a looot more things.

Side note, I’ll go against the grain and support Chandelure for A- with Gengar. Offensive Scizor and Breloom checks are always appreciated, but Chandelure comes with the added benefit of 2HKOing Muk with Specs Fire Blast, which is seen on so many Breloom teams now. Memento is also an underused move on it that Gengar lacks and can change a game in a single turn.

 

[Smallsmallrose]

Minor nitpick: Doublade cannot be trapped since it’s a Ghost-type. That being said, I do not think Magneton’s been unexplored and a drop is more than warranted. There aren’t many other ways to use it then pair it with something revenge killed by Bullet Punch and running dual STABs + HP Fire.

Yes Magneton can trap more Steel-types besides Scizor, but without wasting another team slot on Eject Button shenanigans it comes in safely on 0 of them. Mega Aggron Earthquakes it, Cobalion clicks Close Combat, Scizor clicks anything but Bullet Punch, Bronzong takes nothing and 1v1s it with Psywave + Protect or EQ, and Empoleon 2HKOs with Scald and isn’t even OHKOd. In most high level gameplay involving Magneton it ends up being a game of cat and mouse because no competent player is going to willingly let Magneton come in for free, so half the time it just sits in the back waiting for its moment which never comes.

You also bring up the point “How do I counter X/Y/Z without my Steel?” The answer to this is hopefully you have more than one Pokemon to deal with “X/Y/Z.” If losing Scizor makes you auto lose to DD Altaria then the team is bad and you probably would have won with something else in Magneton’s team slot. I’m also skeptical of how often people rely on Magneton to trap a Steel-type that isn’t Scizor. Yeah it dents some others but that’s just coincidence. If Scizor didn’t exist, then Drew is right and there’s next to no benefit to use it.

The most damning point against it imo is the opportunity cost of wasting a Steel-type slot on something that checks literally nothing that other Steels do. Pidgeot OHKOs it, Aero OHKOs, Latias sets up on it, Altaria OHKOs and outspeeds it, and so on. Teambuilding then becomes extremely awkward defensively since stacking Steels opens up more weaknesses that just aren’t worth it. So while a team overly reliant on a Steel may be weak to Magneton, any team using Magneton is gonna be weak to a looot more things.

Side note, I’ll go against the grain and support Chandelure for A- with Gengar. Offensive Scizor and Breloom checks are always appreciated, but Chandelure comes with the added benefit of 2HKOing Muk with Specs Fire Blast, which is seen on so many Breloom teams now. Memento is also an underused move on it that Gengar lacks and can change a game in a single turn.

"Magneton can't beat Aero/Lati/Etc." You're ignoring the fact that not every steel type has this purpose. Sure, its a common task for the steel, but not every steel needs to do this. Lucario can't really take hits from these these pokemon either, and yet it can still be effective. Some steels aren't meant to be tanks, but that doesn't mean they're bad at the tasks they're made for. Magneton is made to defeat or weaken other steels. And comparing it to steel tanks is unfair to its niche.
"If losing Scizor makes you auto lose to DD Altaria then the team is bad" Not every team can viably run multiple answers to the same mon, especially with the current, very heavy constraints on teambuilding between the S-rank and A+ ranked mons, not to mention meta trends such as flyings and electrics that are practically mandatory to run checks for.
"Bronzong takes like nothing" Bronzong takes a solid 40 a Tbolt, and doesn't commonly run EQ. Even if it does win the 1v1 with protect and some good psywave rolls, it will no longer be in a position to check mons like Lati and Aero, hence Mag has done its purpose.
Also, while Magneton is hard to switch in on certain steels, careful play and team support (I'm not even talking eject button alone here, voltturn and double switching does exist) gives it some good switchins. And if it is in, then it DOES chip the steel to put the pokemon walled by it on your team in a much better position.
C/C- is a ranking far too harsh for a mon that can more or less invalidate certain checks to mons like Dragons, fairies, and others that struggle with steels. MAYBE it can drop, but C is too far for the real utility the mon can provide.

 

[Morsel]

Hello!

Happy to say that this tier has really evolved and is a lot of fun to play now. Just want to make a quick nomination:

Kyurem from B+-->A-

I have tested this Pokemon extensively and have found it to be extremely effective, enough so to justify a nomination to A-. Most balance and bulky offence teams rely on steel types such as Empoleon, Scizor, Cobalion and M-Aggron to serve as dragon or ice resists, or rely on Pokemon like Mantine, Tentacruel or Sylveon. Many of these lack recovery and can easily be chipped by Kyurum or simply heavily chunked by HP Fire/Earth Power on the switch. Those with recovery are heavily pressured by specs ice beam, and forced to heal the next turn if they want to switch in consistently. A set that I have also tested on offensive teams is choice scarf. While unconventional, it provides an offensive check to M-Manectric (which offence struggles with), and comes with the surprise factor which can let you OHKO it after rocks if they stay in to volt switch on you (not expecting to be outsped). I recognize that Hydreigon has more utility with U-Turn and Levitate, which is why I'm not nominating Kyurem to A+. Overall, I strongly feel that this Pokemon is superior to many of its competition in B+, namely Volcanion, M-Houndoon, Stakataka, and Nihilego and as such, deserves to rise to A-. Thanks for reading and have a nice day.

Edit 1: Grammar

 

[autumn]

to B+
Gengar can provide a variety of options through Specs, Scarf, and general utility with moves like Taunt and Destiny Bond, but the tier hasn't really been too good to it. The number of relevant Purusit users in Muk, Krookodile, Scizor, and Aerodactyl doesn't make its job easy, and its frality means it can be OHKOed by almost anything that outspeeds it, like Scarf Latias, Scarf Hydreigon, Gliscor, etc; a lot of the top ranks have ways fo dealing with it either by KOing it out stalling it out, and it doesn't fit with the rest of A- because you can lose a lot more than you gain with it. Regarding Chandelure, it does the same as Gengar, has a worse Speed tier in exchange for more power and an arguably better secondary STAB so it can beat one of the four main Purusit trappers, but its Ground weakness and frality doesn't do it too much good in the tier, so it can stab in B+ with Gengar.

to B
Tsareena is a really good Pokemon right now. There are a few good options for it; it can run Band to really threaten the sheer amount of bulky Water-types in the tier like Alomomola, Swampert, Suicune etc and it also shuts down the Alo/Bliss/Quag core for defensive teams. It also has the option to provide reliable removal with a way to resore its HP with Synthesis so it doesn't struggle with being worn down as much as other Grass-type removal in Rotom-C and Serperior. Queenly Majesty is also a really good ability, and it's a very good Breloom check especially for the Technician variant that only runs STABs. It's immune to Mach Punch and resists Bullet Seed so it can come in multiple times. It also fits surprisingly well on quite a few teams so I support it rising.

stay in A-
On paper, Krookodile looks like a solid Pokemon at both of its roles, SR setter and Scarfer. It can set up rocks on a lot of other setters and stop them with Taunt and cripple bulkier Pokemon with Knock Off too. Scarf sets are really good Purusit trappers and put pressure on Pokemon like Latias and Chandelure. However, the top ranks in A, A+, and S are filled with Pokemon that Krookodile struggles against; Serperior, Breloom, Gliscor, Mega Altaria, and even threats it could be able to on paper like Infernape and Mega Manectric. It does well against a fair portion of the tier, but it can become a liability against some of the tier's key threats so it should stay in A- for now.

to C+
Alolan Marowak has always been a pretty awkward Pokemon; when it dropped, ti was used a lot on TR based teams, but since that playstyle has died a lot and isn't great in the current meta, its TR niche isn't justifiable. Its access to SR, SD and very strong attacks, and Lightning Rod to beat Mega Manectric does give it some assets, but with better SR setters and Mega Manectric checks in Rhyperior, Swampert, and Hippowdon, that niche isn't always needed especially since Manectric is falling in usage anyway, and fats Flying-types like Moltres and Pidgeot are very prevalent. Its Speed tier is lacklustre and its SR weakness coupled with average defensive typing makes it hard to build around and utilise fully, so I would support a drop.

to A-
Kyurem is an interesting Pokemon in the UU tier because of its very strong STAB Ice Beam, access to broken Pressure alongside Substitute + Roost, and ability to break through almost every Steel-type with Earth Power, particularly on Specs sets. The rise of Grass-types to beat bulky Waters also helps Kyurem, because all of them are heavily threatened by its strong Ice Beam; Breloom can hit it with Mach Punch but if its HP is high or behind a Substitute that gets blown away too. Its weakness to SR and to a lot of Pokemon in the highjer ranks, particularly Scizor and faster dragons, can hold it back, but its ability to force so many switches and break common UU staples is worth a rise.

 

[Kink]

I'm totally against dropping gengar, it's one of the most mouldable mons in the tier rn and easily one of the best if not the best current Ghost-type.

Nominator failed to mention its z-move versatility and sub-set as well, which is one of the major things Gengar has going for it. It can be put onto teams that can easily deal with Muk, Krook, Hippo, and other checks/counters. Its typing also uniquely allows it to pair with some of the most prominent dragon-types, water-types, fighting types, steel-types and grass-types in the tier allowing you to put Gengar on fantastic Balance, BO, and HO playstyles.

Overall, Gengar is one of those offensive mons that simply cannot be ignored, it pairs fantastically with other mons in its current rank in terms of raw usability.

 

[Hilomilo]

It's been a good while since I've posted some thoughts of my own, so I figured it'd be fun weighing in on a discussion point or two and sharing my thoughts on a few other Pokemon as well. Hope you guys enjoy! And yes the font size is reduced because I'm god damn incapable of not writing text walls I'm sorry ;-;

To start, I'd like to say that

Chandelure could rise to A-, but most importantly Gengar shouldn't move from its current rank at all. I'll get to Chandelure in a second, but I strongly disagree with any notion that suggests Gengar is currently a B+ caliber threat and would like to address that first. Gengar may be closer in viability to its strongest competitor as a Ghost-type breaker than a rank's difference would suggest, though I don't think it'd fit very comfortably in a rank with fellow Poison-type special attackers Nidoking and Nihilego, which it is most certainly better than right now. Gengar's unique set of tools over both Nidoking and Nihilego warrants maintaining a rank above its main Poison-type competitors for various reasons. Its Ghost-typing and access to Fighting-type coverage gives it an edge over Nihilego in that it's much more capable of powering through currently popular Steel- and Ground-types, like Mega Aggron, Hippowdon, and Rhyperior, while its main advantage over Nidoking lies in the much better Speed tier and less predictability, as well as the ability to eventually overcome Blissey through the use of Taunt, which is a much less suboptimal option on Gengar than Superpower is on Nidoking. Gengar has also had a pretty impressive UUPL showing this season, as while it may not have received sky-high usage, it was capable of showcasing one of its biggest strengths, which is its versatility. The innovations of sets such as Metronome and Substitute + Hypnosis have highlighted that it has a large amount of tools that can all be put to consistent use to allow it to circumvent some of its flaws while remaining generally under the radar about doing so, and this in tandem with the strength of its more conventional sets is reflected by its fairly impressive win rate. Right now Gengar's benefits over both Chandelure and its Poison-type competition have been highlighted in tournament play adequately enough for me to believe it's perfectly fine in A-. As for Chandelure, I'm sort of indifferent on whether or not it rises, though I do think this could reasonably happen considering it's inching a bit closer to the title of best Ghost-type these days. Checking Scizor is a huge benefit it has over its main competition while possessing a lot of Gengar's most notable meta trend-related benefits, such as the strong matchup against Breloom and enjoying the surge in viability of Grass-types. It's not quite on the level of Gengar in my opinion due to generally being more predictable and suffering from a much less convenient Speed tier and rocks weakness, though I think the distinction is less clear than earlier and due to that a rise to make the two both A- is potentially justified. Again, however, Gengar really shouldn't be in B+, even if Chandy ends up staying there for the time being.

The only other discussion point I'd particularly like to weigh in on is

Tsareena rising, which I 100% agree with. Tsareena is just becoming a stronger and stronger pick in the current metagame and I absolutely think what it brings to teams right now is representative of a B ranked Pokemon's usefulness. It has a lot of breathing room to fire off powerful Grass-type attacks given that Ground-, Water-, and Rock-types are all seeing some increased usage and viability in the metagame. It's also super appreciative of the general lack of Grass-resistant Pokemon that actually stomach a Choice Band-boosted Power Whip too well, since paper checks like Latias and Mega Altaria are 2HKOed (the latter requires Stealth Rock down) and Pokemon like Alolan Muk and Celebi can really only switch in once from full health if they want to adequately do their jobs for the remainder of a match. Its flaws, such as the viability of a lot of different Fire-types and its general struggle to overpower Togekiss, are present, though not enough so that they require strenuous support to circumvent and I think that it provides bulky offense and even balance with enough offensive utility to currently justify being ranked alongside the likes of Doublade and Mantine quite easily. One of the most notable rising stars of the metagame and something that I think has much more of an established role than what it's ranked with in B-.

With those out of the way, I have a few nominations I'd be interested in making myself, so let me know what you guys think! :) Also props to Nat for inspiring me to write my nominations out in text boxes since if I didn't oof this post would be a nightmare to scroll through. Enjoy!

Rhyperior: B -> B+

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I think that Rhyperior should rise for really the same reasons it's been rising in recent updates. It's such a useful teambuilding tool because it compresses needs for its team extremely nicely. A Stealth Rock setter and an Electric-immunity are two near necessities on a current UU team and fitting both in one slot is beyond valuable. This in tandem with Rhyperior's crucial advantages over its main Ground-type competition, which include having a strong matchup against Flying-types, a better offensive presence than everything else other than Krookodile, and the ability to lure in and beat Gliscor, is enough for me to believe that rising to B+ would more accurately reflect its current viability versus its main competitors in Krookodile, Hippowdon, and Swampert, which all reside in A-. It also continues to benefit from some of the after effects of Azumarill's ban, such as Volcanion's decreased urgency as a teambuilding tool meaning that Pokemon like Moltres and Rotom-H have more breathing room as Fire-types, which makes it a slightly more reliable Fire-type check overall. It dislikes the dominance of a lot of Grass-types right now and Water-types still being really solid, but its positive traits offset these flaws enough that a closer rank to the other defensive Grounds of the tier is warranted at this stage.

Mega Beedrill: B- -> B

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This one may get some backlash, though I think that Mega Beedrill has fallen victim to a lot of over-hatred if you will, and that despite being dramatically less dominant than once before, placement in B can still adequately reflect its overall strengths and weaknesses in the metagame. It still really dislikes Mega Aggron and Gliscor being as good as they are, and the rise in usage of stuff like Rhyperior and Hippowdon isn't necessarily favorable for it. However, it provides teams with a reliable revenge killer to some of the tier's most centralizing forces while also benefiting from a few particular metagame trends. It can reliably revenge kill all of Serperior, Breloom, Calm Mind Latias, and even +1 Speed Mega Altaria, which make up some of the absolute hardest sweepers to comfortably stop. It also really enjoys the recent surge in popularity of Togekiss, as well as the rise in viability and usage of several different Grass-types, including Tsareena, Rotom-C, and Celebi. The metagame has favored Mega Beedrill a lot more recently in that while it still doesn't love being unable to muscle past a few key bulky threats, it can capitalize on the increased popularity of a few particular Pokemon and types of Pokemon to more reliably get its job done than a B- ranking would suggest. I understand the arguments in favor of keeping it where it is, though I think that it's more appropriately ranked alongside stuff like Raikou and Mantine than with the likes of Decidueye and Jellicent.

Mega Sceptile: B -> B-

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Some of the guys in the ranking council chat have recently been talking about possibly dropping Sceptile from its current spot in B, and I couldn't agree more that right now it's too hard to justify using compared to a lot of other Grass-types to comfortably sit that high in the rankings. While it enjoys a lot of the same benefits as the other Grass-types that are rising in the current metagame, there are arguably a lot more things working against it. It has a much harder time working around Scizor than any one of Serperior (Sub HP Fire sets usually get the job done), Celebi, Tsareena, and Rotom-C. It also suffers from a notable lack of power due to its inability to run a boosting item and lack of access to a boosting move, which prevents it from powering through a lot of the metagame that only continues to increase in overall bulk. Mega Sceptile's lack of power also prevents it from being a sturdy Water-type check considering that Suicune and Mega Slowbro, two of the most centralizing Waters in the tier, can boost up enough to avoid the OHKO from Leaf Storm, thus turning Mega Sceptile into setup bait as it halves its Special Attack and they either Sub or Protect up in Suicune's case or restore health in Slowbro's. This general inability to check Water-types that it should switch in on reliably is also seen in its weaker matchup against Tentacruel (which can retaliate with the Poison-type STAB it now frequent opts to run) and Empoleon than other Grass-types, and at this point in time its Dragon-typing is more of a burden than anything in a metagame in which Swampert is more frequently running Ice-type STAB and the two best scarfers both hit it super effectively with their STAB attacks.

Mega Steelix: B- -> C+

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This is another one that may result in some other peoples' disagreement, but I feel that Mega Steelix is a really suboptimal pick at this stage of the metagame and due to the competition it's faced with and how much harder it's become to use, a rank alongside a more established threat like Rotom-H or Crawdaunt really isn't accurate of its current viability. Its Ground-type on paper is a specific advantage it has over its main competition in Mega Aggron given that Electric immunities are important on nearly every team archetype. However, it doesn't feel too useful in practice given that both Mega Manectric and Rotom-C, the two most common Volt Switch users in the tier, have their respective ways of punishing it, and also given that Rotom-H is rising in ladder usage and is establishing its place in the meta much more than before. As a defensive Steel-type, I just find its advantages over Mega Aggron to be super minimal and team specific while as a defensive Ground-type I also don't see a lot it can provide over Rhyperior, Hippowdon, or Swampert, who all have advantages over it that are a lot more relevant to the metagame, such as the ability to check Flying-types in Rhyperior's case, recovery and a sturdier check to Mega Manectric in Hippo's case, and another sturdier check to Mega Manectric, access to Scald, and more overall versatility in Swampert's case. The one thing Mega Steelix can hang its hat on that other Pokemon of its typing can't is the fact that it can check Latias more reliably due to not worrying about the threat of Z-Thunder. However, I feel like this is a very specific perk that comes with using it and that it still isn't enough to offset its lack of many other meta-relevant niches over its main competition. In my opinion a drop is appropriate at this point.

Seismitoad: C -> C+

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Seis may have already risen just recently. However, I believe it to be more consistent in its role and worthy of consideration on teams than anything else in C, which should be reflected with a rise to C+. I've been running its offensive set with Speed investment necessary to creep Adamant Breloom and have enjoyed utilizing Seismitoad immensely. Luring in Breloom and OHKOing it with Sludge Wave is a huge tool it has that adequately distinguishes it from its healthy amount of Ground-type competition, while with an Expert Belt and full investment in Special Attack it can also adequately take on other metagame staples like Scizor, Primarina, Gliscor, and the many popular Ground-type Stealth Rock setters roaming around. I think that it's establishing a much more worthwhile niche for itself over its main competition, thus increasing its worth as a Stealth Rock setter. C was a good place to rise to upon the innovation its offensive set, though I think that the meta favors that set enough for Seismitoad to at least move up one more rank, as it's fairly better than the rest of C and definitely on par with stuff like Toxicroak and Venomoth.

As far as other possible changes go, I think that Salazzle dropping to B-, Vileplume possibly dropping from C+, and maybe Kommo-o rising up to B+ are also considerations, though I've already written enough and those are changes that I'm personally less sure about. I hope you guys enjoyed, I miss posting regular nomination posts sometimes. Let me know what you think :)

 

[vivalospride]

[/hide]

Mega Sceptile: B -> B-

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Some of the guys in the ranking council chat have recently been talking about possibly dropping Sceptile from its current spot in B, and I couldn't agree more that right now it's too hard to justify using compared to a lot of other Grass-types to comfortably sit that high in the rankings. While it enjoys a lot of the same benefits as the other Grass-types that are rising in the current metagame, there are arguably a lot more things working against it. It has a much harder time working around Scizor than any one of Serperior (Sub HP Fire sets usually get the job done), Celebi, Tsareena, and Rotom-C. It also suffers from a notable lack of power due to its inability to run a boosting item and lack of access to a boosting move, which prevents it from powering through a lot of the metagame that only continues to increase in overall bulk. Mega Sceptile's lack of power also prevents it from being a sturdy Water-type check considering that Suicune and Mega Slowbro, two of the most centralizing Waters in the tier, can boost up enough to avoid the OHKO from Leaf Storm, thus turning Mega Sceptile into setup bait as it halves its Special Attack and they either Sub or Protect up in Suicune's case or restore health in Slowbro's. This general inability to check Water-types that it should switch in on reliably is also seen in its weaker matchup against Tentacruel (which can retaliate with the Poison-type STAB it now frequent opts to run) and Empoleon than other Grass-types, and at this point in time its Dragon-typing is more of a burden than anything in a metagame in which Swampert is more frequently running Ice-type STAB and the two best scarfers both hit it super effectively with their STAB attacks.

I agree with pretty much everything this is saying about Mega Sceptile, but I'm still disagreeing with a drop.

0- Atk Sceptile-Mega Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Muk-Alola: 178-210 (50.7 - 59.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

In my opinion, mixed aoa is the best Mega Sceptile set rn because of it's ability to lure Muk. It's pretty consistent at doing so and since most Muks don't run any HP investment, Mega Sceptile can EQ on the switch in and get a 2HKO. Also running EQ on Mega Sceptile really isn't too big of a deal since all you're dropping is Giga Drain in most cases, which is just used as the "hmm I wanna use grass stab but like Leaf Storm isn't really necessary to kill a Swampert" move. I agree that this mon is mediocre as shit rn, but I've used it a lot and can honestly say I think it deserves to stay in B for now. A lot of common Serperior answers such as scarf Latias, Scarf Hydreigon, Crobat, etc. can't safely switch into Mega Sceptile... and with EQ neither can Muk, and this is something that Mega Sceptile has over Serperior. Togekiss is getting better and better with Breloom pretty much running the tier right now and this hurts Mega Sceptile a lot. However I don't think it's enough to justify a drop if you think about everything else I've said, especially since one of Mega Sceptile's sets (SD) is capable of beating Togekiss.

Calcs

4 SpA Togekiss Air Slash vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Sceptile-Mega: 218-258 (77.5 - 91.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+2 252 Atk Sceptile-Mega Iron Tail vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Togekiss: 406-478 (108.5 - 127.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Also yes Mega Sceptile's lack of a boosting move hurts a shit ton, but STAB 120 bp Leaf Storm does a lot of damage I promise, and Dragon Pulse does a lot to common grass resists like Crobat, Chandelure, Gengar, dragons like Lati and Hydreigon (obviously), etc. for this mon to put some pressure on teams that rely on Muk or Scizor to stop this beast.

Ik I've been praising this mon this whole time but I really do agree that this mon is mediocre rn in the meta. I just personally think that B is a fine place for it to chill tho.

 

[Sage]

Just got added to VR council, so I figured it's been a long time coming for a large VR post (dates back to XY to be honest...) and I'm attempting to do some cleanup on the lower ranks of the VR here, as well as some more relevant rises / falls. With the UUPL regular season coming to a close I figured now was as good of a time as any to clarify where I stand on the meta. This might get a little wordy but bear with me please, I'll have replay support for some of the more pivotal noms.

Rises

A -> A+

Reasoning

Togekiss continues to adapt to whatever the meta throws at it, and I think it's splashability is at an all time high. We've seen a multitude of sets have success in ULT / UUPL, and I think it's established dominance as the premier Fairy-type in the tier over Mega Altaria right now. It has the usage to show for it, being 40% more often than the next two in line, Malt and Klefki. Looking at the A ranks, the only sure fire check to Togekiss is Mega Aero, and even that can be flinched down by Thunder Wave sets. The almost unmatched versatility, ability to break otherwise solid checks with flinches, and incredibly valuable Defensive typing all give Togekiss the pedigree of an A+ mon in my mind. I've gathered some tournament replays that highlight its stunning versatility using some of the resurging sets.

Replays and Stats

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7uu-374061 (Togekiss saves Kory from a losing position by forcing Punny's wincon out, and has the bulk to ensure Kory's own win con gets a free turn.)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-749355305 (My Togekiss uses Defog early on to clear a threatening T spike and bluff the support set, when it later comes in to surprise Bushtush's Cobalion and flinch it down with a Choice Scarf. )
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7uu-371582 (Sacri uses Trick Specs Kiss to cripple an Empoleon and remove it, and the Togekiss continues to be a threat even w/o a boosting item vs the rest of Meep's team.)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7uu-371560 (Poek's Scarf Kiss does a great job cleaning vs Gondra)

UUPL VI Fairy Type Stats
| 8 | Togekiss | 31 | 19.87% | 54.84% |
| 15 | Altaria | 18 | 11.54% | 61.11% |
| 17 | Klefki | 17 | 10.90% | 58.82% |
| 25 | Primarina | 11 | 7.05% | 27.27% |
| 32 | Sylveon | 9 | 5.77% | 33.33% |
| 50 | Florges | 4 | 2.56% | 50.00% |

A- -> A

Reasoning

Silvio said most of what I needed to, the role compression on Krook is ridiculous, leading to its insane #3 spot on the UUPL usage, and it still has the underutilized Rocks and Z Move sets with Tectonic Rage being a great all purpose nuke on things like Malt that normally check it relatively safely, and Hydro Vortex luring Gliscor / Hippowdon. Despite its lower speed tier, Pursuit utility makes Krookodile one of the best Scarf users in the tier, opening up so many holes for other teammates to exploit and getting chip damage on fast threats like Maero or Manectric that don't want to risk a Stone Edge/ EQ respectively. For a Pokemon that usually runs 3/4 moves on its standard set, scouting it is surprisingly tricky.

B+ -> A-

Reasoning

Gengar 100% deserves to stay where it is right now, so this guy should rise. A lot of neat sets have been created to help Chandelure survive in a Pursuit infested metagame and still perform its main role as a strong special attacker and Scizor check. Will O Wisp has seen a resurgence, as well as Protect to scout vs Scarfers and mitigate the Stealth Rock weakness. Infiltrator Scarf sets are still one of the most reliable ways to revenge kill Serperior among other threats, and it appreciates the meta trending towards Grass-types. It also has a Strong Shadow ball to threaten notable Fire resists like Rhyperior and Nihilego. Being the 1B to Gengar's 1A in my opinion for justifies it's rise to A-.

B -> A-

Reasoning

A large jump for Rhyperior here, but it absolutely deserves it, showing up in recent tournament play as one of the premier Stealth Rock users for BO, as always the most dominant archetype. The secondary Rock typing gives Rhyperior a different niche from Swampert and Hippowdon some of it's main competition who also reside in the A- rank. Looking at UUPL usage it's smack in the middle between Pert and Hippo, boasting the highest winrate of the 3 as well. Checking Flying types like Moltres and Togekiss with your Ground-type is incredibly valuable, and is also boasts more natural offensive power than Swampert and Hippowdon. It also has room to play with offensive sets such as CB / Rock Polish and techs like Metal Burst.

Replays and Stats

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7uu-367684 (HT's Rhyperior continuously uses Pohjis' Togekiss as bait to keep rocks up, also providing strong chip damage on the Swampert)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7uu-372174 (Pearl's Rhyp is a great blanket tank vs Lycans, also trying to catch a Hydreigon with the rare Metal Burst which unfortunately misses)


UUPL VI Common Ground-type Rocker stats
| 11 | Swampert | 20 | 12.82% | 50.00% |
| 18 | Rhyperior | 16 | 10.26% | 62.50% |
| 23 | Hippowdon | 13 | 8.33% | 46.15% |

B- -> B/B+

Reasoning

Another large nom, would be ok with her only going up one subrank, but I think Tsareena has shown to be an incredibly consistent breaker with Choice Band and hazard remover. As someone who's been using this mon for months before it was popular, I can vouch for the Meadow Plate Spinner set's effectiveness. With a lot of the Stealth Rock users being Rock / Ground type, you threaten them out with a crazy strong Power Whip, and scare Ghost types with a powerful Knock Off (even on non band sets, calcs below.) U-turn is also incredibly valuable, letting you get chip damage on Grass resists like Latias and Hydreigon while bringing in your speed control or Fairy-type safely.

Vs Ghost Types

252+ Atk Tsareena Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Gengar: 332-392 (126.7 - 149.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Tsareena Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Chandelure: 240-284 (74.3 - 87.9%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252+ Atk Tsareena Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Doublade: 104-124 (32.2 - 38.5%) -- 97.8% chance to 3HKO
180+ Atk Doublade Iron Head vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Tsareena: 123-145 (43.1 - 50.8%) -- 4.7% chance to 2HKO

252+ Atk Tsareena Knock Off vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Decidueye: 188-222 (63.2 - 74.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Tsareena Knock Off vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Decidueye: 280-330 (94.2 - 111.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

Replays

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-746431373 (Despite losing my Win Con to a crit early, Tsareena abuses Silvio's Suicune for free turns and wreaks havoc with Power Whip, also nailing Scizor with a boosted High Jump Kick early to prevent it from checking)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7uu-376495 (Shiba's Tsar uses U-turn to keep grabbing momentum, and ensuring his hazards stay up longer while still wallbreaking efficiently.

C -> C+

Reasoning

Now to start dealing with some lower ranks, Chesnaught's seen a nice little uptick in usage to combat Breloom mostly. While it's obviously more viable mostly due to Loom, having some secondary options other than Klefki as a spiker is nice for Bulky Offense and Balance teams. It synergizes well with spinners like Starmie, Tenta, and Mtoise, giving Spikestack some bulkier routes in team building. It has a much more defined niche than the rest of its C rank brethren. It's really abusable weaknesses such as passivity due to lack of offensive investment, tough 4x Flying weakness, and how it can give free turns to some of the most dangerous mons in the meta like Latias and Togekiss keep it out of the B ranks for me.

C -> C+

Reasoning

Seismitoad has also surprised me with its capabilities for offensive sets that separate it from Swampert. We already know about Water Absorb and how that lets it handle things like Volcanion and Starmie better for teams, but it has surprising Z-move versatility, and offensive Rocks sets can be very tricky to scout for and switch into. It hasn't seen much tournament success yet but I think the potential is definitely there. One cool set that takes advantage of things like Breloom and Tsareena that might want to try and get free turns is Acid Downpour Rocks. You can also hit fairy type removers like Malt and Togekiss hard.

Poison Z Set

Seismitoad @ Poisonium Z
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 32 HP / 252 SpA / 224 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Stealth Rock
- Hydro Pump
- Earth Power
- Sludge Wave

C- -> C/C+

Reasoning

I don't realy know why Nidoqueen was all the way down in C- other than lack of usage, it's still a great hazard setter with a surprising amount of utility in moves like Roar. You can select its coverage based on team needs, and thanks to Sheer Force you'll still hit relatively hard without a boosting item, with Earth Power, Sludge Wave, Flamethrower, and Ice Beam all great options. I don't have much to say other than that it's a generically good hazard setter with a neat defensive typing, and it can last longer than Nidoking. Obviously King's offensive presence is worth more which is why we're aiming for C/C+ and not B+.

Replays

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7uu-373366 (King's... Queen uses its great bulk and passive recovery to continually set Toxic Spikes against Rey's stall team note how nidoking would have had larger issues setting consistently here)

C- -> C

Reasoning

This lil slug is something I've been experimenting with the past two weeks or so, and it forms some really interesting cores on balance. It is a great partner for Rockers such as Stakataka or Mega Aggron that want help dealing with Electrics, and it's also just a really good blanket wall with fantastic mixed bulk. Not many Pokemon can claim to check both Mega Aero and Nidoking in one slot, as an example of this mixed bulk. It doesn't bring a ton of utility to the team overall, but Water/Ground typing with recovery and that mixed bulk is enough to warrant a C rank in my opinion.

Drops

Thanks for sticking with me up to this point, the drops section will be much more succinct as a lot of these cases are straight forward.

B -> C+

Reasoning

Sorry viv, when you say a mon's mediocre it probably doesn't deserve B rank. Sceptile's really just a shadow of what it used to be, it struggles to switch into a lot of the Waters its meant to check, some of them can boost on it when its not carrying Giga Drain, if it is carrying Giga Drain it's free turns for either Scizor or Alomuk. There's so many pitfalls for it in the meta right now

B -> C+

Reasoning

I think that Salazzle was overhyped when we intially rose it to B. The problems of building with a Fire type that can't check Scizor well at all are infuriating, and it is still revenged by pretty much every common Scarfer bar non Stone Edge Infernape. It still has a great niche at dismantling bulky teams and being immune to Toxic, but she struggles to make an impact in matchups versus anything remotely offensive, mostly being forced to fire a decently strong unboosted Z move, or force Scizor out at most twice.

B- -> C+

Reasoning

Magneton isn't very reliable. It's still the leader of a viable strategy in DragMag, but it's lacking utility in other areas of being a Steel have been noted by previous commenters so I won't spend time elaborating. C+ seems right to me for still signifying its very defined niche, while also showcasing its unreliability.

B- -> C+

Reasoning

Another mon that's still fine, but probably not worthy of the B ranks at this point. It's a decent blanket wall on Balance / Semi Stall and Spore immunities are always great to have, but its pretty much forced to run Brave Bird at this point in the meta limiting its versatility, and it has seen almost 0 usage in high level play. About time for a drop, but still not a horrible Pokemon.

B- -> C/C-

Reasoning

This on the other hand is garbage. It's not used at all for good reason. but it can probably be ranked for Trick Room or something, and I guess being the only Stealth Rock weak electric immunity. Don't use this.

B- -> C/C-

Reasoning

Another Pokemon that really just isn't good. It's the worst Electric check of all the grounds in the tier, has no recovery outside of Rest, and the Water weakness is incredibly annoying. It forms a nice core on stall with Pyukumuku, but that's the only place I would really recommend it. Stab Earthquake is something too I guess, still very mediocre overall. Would consider it on par with Registeel / Steelvally.

C+ -> C-

Reasoning

Even worse than Marowak, still has a niche as a sort of viable Magic Bounce user, but it can't even switch into walls with its horrendous bulk, every other Dark type is worth more, and it takes your Mega slot. I've used it for an extended amount of time due to one vivalospride 's horrible Secret Santa request, and believe me, it is that bad.

C -> C- / Unranked

Reasoning

I guess being a strong special stallbreaker is probably worth keeping ranked, but it sees no usage, it has super limiting teambuilding constraints (lack of defensive typing doing literally anything, 4x weak to pursuit). Much less useful than other C rank pokemon like Entei, Umbreon, or (hopefully) Gastrodon. Would be fine with it being unranked but I can theoretically see it doing something, unlike the next two Pokemon.

Unrank:

Reasoning

These mon's don't have niches. Yes you can make them work. I can also make Klinklang and Sneasel work on the same team, and yet I'm not asking for those to be ranked. They're not doing anything special even when you're catering to them. Honchkrow is a slow frail nuke that struggles to get going and kills itself on anything with recovery. Lycanroc-D has Accelerock and nothing else on other Rock-types, which still hasn't translated to any major success.

Hopefully this helps clarify where I'm at, looking forward to helping serve on the VR!

 

[Moutemoute]

Firstable, congratulations Sage, you deserve it !

A → A+

I definitively agree with this nomination. Togekiss is an amazing staple for a lot of team and it has a massive role compression (dragon check, grass check / breloom check, ground immunity, access to Defog / Hell Bell / Trick if Scarf or Specs). I've seen on the ladder a lot of people running Babiri Berry (to lure Scizor and OHKO it w/ fire coverage) and it's a really viable thing. No matter how you use Togekiss, it gonna help you most of the time.

A- → A

Disagree.
I already gave my opinion on this one : here

B- → A-

Even if I agree with a rise of Rhyperior I definitively think that A- is too high for it. Even if it's typing allows it to check Electric + Flying, it also grants to it some annoying weakness (especially ×4 to both Water & Grass which are very common types right now in Underused). I think B / B+ should be enough for now.

I don't have much to say for the rest of nomination, I agree with the majority of them (even if I'm not a big fan of Magneton drop).

 

[LORD HELIX 65]

Some nominations to encourage discussion:

Stakataka to A-
While I know it was recently nominated to B and wasn't dropped there and this will be controversial, I truly think stakataka is A- material. To start, it has seen more usage outside of TR, which shows it isn't as one dimensional as many think it is. It has seen some usage on stall for rocks, still being able to hit hard, especially for a stallmon, and the ability to deal with many threats and being a good bird check thanks to it's typing, like Mega-Pidgeot, Moltres, Togekiss, Chandelure, Sylveon, Rotom-H, and Mega aerodactyl and Mega Altaria even if they have EQ. Both stall (always) and OTR (most of the time from aero) can take an EQ from both and OHKO with gyro ball. It's OTR set is still very good as well, but it's important to remove ground and water types that could stop it, which is why it's better midgame. Also, CB variants have also been used and proven very effective, especially if things like Breloom and bulky waters and grounds are removed. While I understand Stakataka hates priority, crawdaunt is much less threatening than before, and Breloom can be taken care of with other mons. Really Good mon and I think it should go to A-.

Nihilego to B-
On the other hand, why would you even bother with this in this stage of the metagame? Great special defense and attack and speed mean nothing when your hard walled by prominent ground types like hippo, swampert, and Rhyperior. While you could youse niche moves like grass knot to take care of them, that's occupying another valuable moveslot. It also hates Mega Aggron's presence in the meta as it can do literally nothing to it. It's hard walled by Mega Steelix and the electrium-z set is easily walled by almost any ground type. While specs or scarf seems decent, it's just put in it's place by priority users like Crawdaunt and Scizor, and the hazard set is less conventional thanks to more hazard removal than ever. It gets walled and generally just dies to anything with decent physical power or anything with decent special defense, like snorlax or alolan muk. Really not understanding the merit of this mon in the meta and I think it should drop to B- due to struggling to adapt recently and being hard walled by the 3 ground types of the tier and aggron.


Feraligatr to B-
This pokemon is actually quite good, however. Decent bulk lets it get setup on most neutral threats, and already great power thanks to solid attack, sheer force + LO with no recoil, gets further augmented with DD. the prominence of ground types certainly helps too, as it can get more or less free set up on all of them. It also has some interesting coverage moves you could try, like superpower, ice punch, crunch, and iron tail, 3 out of the 4 getting sheer force boosted. I find Feraligatr to work especially great at breaking stall and unprepared offense alike, and is certainly on the level of pokemon like Decidueye and Mega Beedrill, so I think it should be B- now.

 

[WAZZUPYOSHI]

Nihilego to B-
On the other hand, why would you even bother with this in this stage of the metagame? Great special defense and attack and speed mean nothing when your hard walled by prominent ground types like hippo, swampert, and Rhyperior. While you could youse niche moves like grass knot to take care of them, that's occupying another valuable moveslot. It also hates Mega Aggron's presence in the meta as it can do literally nothing to it. It's hard walled by Mega Steelix and the electrium-z set is easily walled by almost any ground type. While specs or scarf seems decent, it's just put in it's place by priority users like Crawdaunt and Scizor, and the hazard set is less conventional thanks to more hazard removal than ever. It gets walled and generally just dies to anything with decent physical power or anything with decent special defense, like snorlax or alolan muk. Really not understanding the merit of this mon in the meta and I think it should drop to B- due to struggling to adapt recently and being hard walled by the 3 ground types of the tier and aggron.

While I could completely see your reasoning on why it should drop, a few of your points seem a bit iffy. For one, grass knot is usually the standard on most of any Nihilego that you'll see, which is almost always the scarf variant. The only move that I would imagine being considered over Grass Knot would be HP Ice, and it's really only to hit Gliscor. Grass Knot usually provides better coverage on it than HP would. Plus. one of Nihilego's merits is a nice Mega-Pidgeot check. While Mega-Pidgeot isn't that common to my knowledge, it certainly is very dangerous, and Nihilego can reliably beat it.

Begrudgingly though, I do have to agree on this one. If it got fire blast or ice beam (or really any good coverage move besides Thunderbolt), then its problems with ground or steel types wouldn't be as bad (although 4MSS would become a serious issue then). Plus its physical bulk is absolute trash, taking huge amounts of damage from decently strong resisted physical attacks (CB Scizor's U-Turn takes about half of Nihilego's health). While its special attack is good, it's certainly not great when we have stuff like Serperior and Chandelure still being viable options, and something can almost always switch in to force it to switch out.

 

[Jade]

Nihilego to B-
On the other hand, why would you even bother with this in this stage of the metagame? Great special defense and attack and speed mean nothing when your hard walled by prominent ground types like hippo, swampert, and Rhyperior. While you could youse niche moves like grass knot to take care of them, that's occupying another valuable moveslot. It also hates Mega Aggron's presence in the meta as it can do literally nothing to it. It's hard walled by Mega Steelix and the electrium-z set is easily walled by almost any ground type. While specs or scarf seems decent, it's just put in it's place by priority users like Crawdaunt and Scizor, and the hazard set is less conventional thanks to more hazard removal than ever. It gets walled and generally just dies to anything with decent physical power or anything with decent special defense, like snorlax or alolan muk. Really not understanding the merit of this mon in the meta and I think it should drop to B- due to struggling to adapt recently and being hard walled by the 3 ground types of the tier and aggron.

First off, Grass Knot is not niche. Grass Knot is a staple on pretty much every Nihilego set, so saying it's hard walled by Ground types makes no sense. Not only that, Electrium Z also runs Grass Knot and does decent damage to Mega Aggron. Mega Steelix is barely relevant in the current meta and is easily chipped by switching into repeated Grass Knot. Saying that the hazard set is less than conventional doesn't make much sense when most Defoggers can't even come safely on it (with the exception of Gliscor and (sorta) Latias. However, the latter can be hit by HP Ice.) I think it should stay at B+. Bird resists are very demanding in this meta. and being able to hit the recently rising hazard removals in Rotom-C and Tsareena and also being able to hit Rhyperior with Grass Knot is good. It may die to any physical attack, however you can say the same about things like Gengar which also is weak to Pursuit. Alolan Muk is also very easy to chip and takes about 50% from Z-Thunder.

I don't get the comparison of Nihilego to Serperior and Chandelure either. Serperior is completely weak before a boost and relies on Leaf Storm for power. These three Pokemon have completely different niches as well. It doesn't really have that big of an issue since most Grounds hate switching into Grass Knot and most Steel types are not only easy to chip, but hate taking Z-Thunder.

 

[Kink]

Hello,

I shouldn't have to say this, but I am. This is one of the most important threads of the UU subforum. If you find that you cannot control your memes in this thread, you are effectively demonstrating that you cannot be trusted with posting in the UU subforum.

This is not the place for bad memes. Some posts have been deleted. Next time, I will infract. Please, be responsible and respectable.

Thank you.