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I can provide some replays when I get home actually yea. Most of them are friendly matches tho.
And also most of the faster pokemon can't even beat plus 2 mega pinsir. Getting chip damage off on them with rocks up isn't hard at all. I can post some calcs when i get home
OK so since a bunch of people is calling Porygon-Z to be unranked sorely because on paper the metagame's not kind to it, I went and had some battles with it and...yeah.
P-Z's not exactly unviable, but the sheer amount of fast megas, scarfers & priority that are around are not doing it any favors. Heck, I dare say SubSalac Belly Drum Kommo-o (who's not even ranked)is better than Normalium-Z Porygon-Z on the whole "become the gimmicky win-con" shenanigan, because unlike Porygon-Z, that mon has actual resistances and scares a mon or two when setting up.
If you guys want a replay that exemplifies perfectly Porygon-Z's issues, look no futher than here:
How about providing replays on top of it for a nomination?also its Pinsir not "pPnsir" in the second line. Also yes it's true that Pinsir somewhat sets up on Bulu, but I saw a few run stone edge on ladder. Anyway the problem I see with Pinsir is that, a somewhat good opponent always has enough Checks for it, just won't let it set up in other words you have to effectively sack a mon to get it in. Furthermore Koko one of the best and most common mons check it quite easily actually, which I find a huge drawback of M-Pinsir. I think it's just fine where it is right now
See above. Hyper Offense with SR and Sticky Web Support support Mega-Pinsir so well it's ridicuous. Not sure if it deserves the boost to be honest, it's definitively not Volcarona (another A ranked win-con) in the sense it forces people to run Scarf Greninja JUST to revenge kill it.
Well its been a while since i've posted anything here so to commemorate the upgrade (meh) lets get a nom out here Azumarill C+ --> B- or higher
I totally understand why Azumarill is where it is right now. The best set it can run is belly drum to try and overpower its common and prevalent checks in the metagame, but even that gets it nowhere, fast. Tapu lele can easily rk after belly drum, and so can others such as kyu-b and latios. But the prevalence of its checks forces it to run BD because any other set like assault vest or choice band would just fail when ferrothorn, zapdos, celesteela, magearna, toxapex, tapu bulu, mega venusaur, mega scizor, kartana, and rotom wash are all common and good.
To put it lightly, metagame trends are very unfavorable to the standard physical azumarill.
But fear not! This generation brought azumarill a new gift instead: sap sipper+whirlpool+perish song is now legal.
This seems like a meme set, but it actually functions as an effective surprise trapper that can remove almost every one of its checks and with a water/fairy typing that is immune to grass, it is right up there with steel/fairy in terms of just an amazing set of resistances.
So here's how it works:
I send in my azumarill against a heatran, a lando-t (unboosted), a greninja, a volcarona, keldeo, diancie weavile etc shit that azu can threaten out. Of course, I can't actually do shit to them, but its the thought that counts. As they go into their check (we'll refer to ferro/toxapex bc those are the most common/relevant/best mons out of the total list that checks azu IMO), azu uses whirlpool, and traps ferro/pex. Now ferrothorn can try to power whip or leech seed as azumarill tries to perish song, but to no avail, as sap sipper activates. Toxapex can try to use knock off or toxic, which is a bit annoying, but azu is packing rest with this set so its a small price to fuck pex. You can protect as perish song counter falls to 2, whirlpool or rest as it falls to 1, switch out into anything you want, and watch ferro/pex die.
It's really beautiful.
The surprise factor is really what makes this set work and it will definitely fade in effectiveness if it ever catches on, but this set can trap pokemon that come in after a kill or double down as well. If lando-t u-turned out as you switched into azu and they go into their SD/defog/leaf blade/sacred sword kartana, then you can whirlpool, perish song, protect, rest, and switch to just get rid of it. Of course in this case, the switch in might have to eat a boosted hit from kartana, so teammates that can check the offensive mons that azu traps are very helpful.
Here's a broad and somewhat situational list of what azu can lure+trap
Toxapex
Ferrothorn
Celesteela (not offensive)
Chansey
Clefable (not LO tbolt)
Mew (not taunt)
Tapu Bulu
Tapu Fini
Kartana (not smart strike)
Mega Venusaur (not sludge bomb)
Tangrowth
Manaphy
Mega Scizor (not u-turn or 252+ atk)
Mega Slowbro
Alomomola
Suicune (not roar)
Skarmory (not whirlwind)
Serperior
Amoongus
Generally assuming no prior attack/sp.atk boosts on mons like bulu, kartana, scizor, manaphy cuz they can overpower with coverage/stab
The best part about it all is that so many pokemon appreciate the reliable removal of pokemon like ferrothorn, toxapex, celesteela, and so many pokemon can pair well with this set. Ash gren, SG magearna, mega diancie, Mega mawile, Mega Scizor, and many more just like that shit gone, so this azu set has many many partners.
Here's a replay of this set in action: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-670526379
(pardon low ladder, decay's a bitch)
Questionable plays on both sides but the effectiveness of this set is abundantly clear nonetheless. Once the unique defensive tapu bulu set is removed, ash gren can just go crazy. You can even see perishazu acting as an "emergency" stop to the sub dd gyarados set, it can do this for many sweepers such as volcarona, zard-x (without tpunch), and gyarados, although a normal physical azu could do this as well.
In the very end, the mega bro just got hard checked by perishazu too.
Maybe i'll C/P this post to sets viability thread later but yeah I'll dump the set I used too:
Azumarill @ Leftovers
Ability: Sap Sipper
EVs: 252 HP / 68 Def / 160 SpD / 28 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Whirlpool
- Perish Song
- Protect
- Rest
Rest nice for dealing with toxic, stoss, and other chip damage mons on stall can do. If you miss Scald, you can run it over this, but then you have no recovery. 28 speed is for getting the rest off before -spd celesteela heavy slams u again, 248hp/160 SpD ensures you avoid 3hko from specs gren pump after rox (without factoring in protect), the rest goes into defense to eat gyro balls/heavy slams/bulu+kartana coverage the best u can.
If you don't mind getting outsped by steela, you can opt to run relaxed+zero ivs in speed and 96 in def to tank OTR z-stone edge stakataka pretty well
252+ Atk Stakataka Gyro Ball (75 BP) vs. 252 HP / 96+ Def Azumarill: 133-157 (32.9 - 38.8%) -- 99.8% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
But i generally like trapping steela more reliably.
Well its been a while since i've posted anything here so to commemorate the upgrade (meh) lets get a nom out here Azumarill C+ --> B- or higher
I totally understand why Azumarill is where it is right now. The best set it can run is belly drum to try and overpower its common and prevalent checks in the metagame, but even that gets it nowhere, fast. Tapu lele can easily rk after belly drum, and so can others such as kyu-b and latios. But the prevalence of its checks forces it to run BD because any other set like assault vest or choice band would just fail when ferrothorn, zapdos, celesteela, magearna, toxapex, tapu bulu, mega venusaur, mega scizor, kartana, and rotom wash are all common and good.
To put it lightly, metagame trends are very unfavorable to the standard physical azumarill.
But fear not! This generation brought azumarill a new gift instead: sap sipper+whirlpool+perish song is now legal.
This seems like a meme set, but it actually functions as an effective surprise trapper that can remove almost every one of its checks and with a water/fairy typing that is immune to grass, it is right up there with steel/fairy in terms of just an amazing set of resistances.
So here's how it works:
I send in my azumarill against a heatran, a lando-t (unboosted), a greninja, a volcarona, keldeo, diancie weavile etc shit that azu can threaten out. Of course, I can't actually do shit to them, but its the thought that counts. As they go into their check (we'll refer to ferro/toxapex bc those are the most common/relevant/best mons out of the total list that checks azu IMO), azu uses whirlpool, and traps ferro/pex. Now ferrothorn can try to power whip or leech seed as azumarill tries to perish song, but to no avail, as sap sipper activates. Toxapex can try to use knock off or toxic, which is a bit annoying, but azu is packing rest with this set so its a small price to fuck pex. You can protect as perish song counter falls to 2, whirlpool or rest as it falls to 1, switch out into anything you want, and watch ferro/pex die.
It's really beautiful.
The surprise factor is really what makes this set work and it will definitely fade in effectiveness if it ever catches on, but this set can trap pokemon that come in after a kill or double down as well. If lando-t u-turned out as you switched into azu and they go into their SD/defog/leaf blade/sacred sword kartana, then you can whirlpool, perish song, protect, rest, and switch to just get rid of it. Of course in this case, the switch in might have to eat a boosted hit from kartana, so teammates that can check the offensive mons that azu traps are very helpful.
Here's a broad and somewhat situational list of what azu can lure+trap
Toxapex
Ferrothorn
Celesteela (not offensive)
Chansey
Clefable (not LO tbolt)
Mew (not taunt)
Sableye-Mega
Tapu Bulu
Tapu Fini
Kartana (not smart strike)
Mega Venusaur (not sludge bomb)
Tangrowth
Manaphy
Mega Scizor (not u-turn or 252+ atk)
Mega Slowbro
Alomomola
Suicune (not roar)
Skarmory (not whirlwind)
Serperior
Amoongus
Generally assuming no prior attack/sp.atk boosts on mons like bulu, kartana, scizor, manaphy cuz they can overpower with coverage/stab
The best part about it all is that so many pokemon appreciate the reliable removal of pokemon like ferrothorn, toxapex, celesteela, and so many pokemon can pair well with this set. Ash gren, SG magearna, mega diancie, Mega mawile, Mega Scizor, and many more just like that shit gone, so this azu set has many many partners.
Here's a replay of this set in action: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-670526379
(pardon low ladder, decay's a bitch)
Questionable plays on both sides but the effectiveness of this set is abundantly clear nonetheless. Once the unique defensive tapu bulu set is removed, ash gren can just go crazy. You can even see perishazu acting as an "emergency" stop to the sub dd gyarados set, it can do this for many sweepers such as volcarona, zard-x (without tpunch), and gyarados, although a normal physical azu could do this as well.
In the very end, the mega bro just got hard checked by perishazu too.
Maybe i'll C/P this post to sets viability thread later but yeah I'll dump the set I used too:
Azumarill @ Leftovers
Ability: Sap Sipper
EVs: 252 HP / 68 Def / 160 SpD / 28 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Whirlpool
- Perish Song
- Protect
- Rest
Rest nice for dealing with toxic, stoss, and other chip damage mons on stall can do. If you miss Scald, you can run it over this, but then you have no recovery. 28 speed is for getting the rest off before -spd celesteela heavy slams u again, 248hp/160 SpD ensures you avoid 3hko from specs gren pump after rox (without factoring in protect), the rest goes into defense to eat gyro balls/heavy slams/bulu+kartana coverage the best u can.
If you don't mind getting outsped by steela, you can opt to run relaxed+zero ivs in speed and 96 in def to tank OTR z-stone edge stakataka pretty well
252+ Atk Stakataka Gyro Ball (75 BP) vs. 252 HP / 96+ Def Azumarill: 133-157 (32.9 - 38.8%) -- 99.8% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
But i generally like trapping steela more reliably.
I agree, the sap sipper set is under explored and essentially flips the tables on most of the things that drove Azu to irrelevance. I've played a few games with it and people just don't expect it at all. I'd be comfortable arguing that Sap Sipper is better than Huge Power in this meta. Sap Sipper is definitely more consistent in getting kills than Huge Power (specifically kills against meta defining threats like Pex and Ferro) and I think the ranking should reflect that (B-).
OK so since a bunch of people is calling Porygon-Z to be unranked sorely because on paper the metagame's not kind to it, I went and had some battles with it and...yeah.
P-Z's not exactly unviable, but the sheer amount of fast megas, scarfers & priority that are around are not doing it any favors. Heck, I dare say SubSalac Belly Drum Kommo-o (who's not even ranked)is better than Normalium-Z Porygon-Z on the whole "become the gimmicky win-con" shenanigan, because unlike Porygon-Z, that mon has actual resistances and scares a mon or two when setting up.
If you guys want a replay that exemplifies perfectly Porygon-Z's issues, look no futher than here:
See above. Hyper Offense with SR and Sticky Web Support support Mega-Pinsir so well it's ridicuous. Not sure if it deserves the boost to be honest, it's definitively not Volcarona (another A ranked win-con) in the sense it forces people to run Scarf Greninja JUST to revenge kill it.
Not saying I disagree with a pz drop, but that replay doesn't really prove anything. You switched pz into a heavy slam, putting it in range of the fake out. That's like someone nominating lando down to a+ using a replay where it switched in on kb's ice beam and getting ohkoed.
Not saying I disagree with a pz drop, but that replay doesn't really prove anything. You switched pz into a heavy slam, putting it in range of the fake out. That's like someone nominating lando down to a+ using a replay where it switched in on kb's ice beam and getting ohkoed.
I do believe the replay proves Porygon-Z lacks both the bulk and typing to find setup fodder without getting hurt in the process and getting revenge killed quicky. The only way I could've done it safely was by either sacrificing a mon or made one explode/kamikaze or something.
But yeah, I definitively could've played better there. A more acurrate comparison would be switching a SD Z-Lando-T on a mantine expecting to not go for Scald on the switch.
Making a post on some of the recent nominations as I've been studying for my Data Analysis final for the last couple of hours, and I need a break.
Pinsir isn't exactly what I call versatile, but it tends to get the job done. The SD set is very scary right now as it threatens a lot of teams. Sticky Webs made a bit of a comeback in usum, and even though it has died down since the Naga ban it still hangs around on the ladder enough to boost Pinsir up a bit. Tapu Koko is still a big issue for Pinsir as it has high usage, and checks Pinsir (unless webs are up and you're running eq>cc). Also while Celesteela usage is dipping I still don't like the fact it beats M-Pinsir so easily unless you run a knock set and wear it down a bit. Magnezone being a solid partner is nice, removing steels helps the process of ending a game with Pinsir by a great deal. In the end I can see reasons to give Pinsir the nod to A, but I also see enough reasons to keep it at A-. When this deadlock of sorts happens I tend to use the eye test, and when I look at mons like Tapu Lele, Mega Mawile, Celesteela, and Volcarona I just don't see M-Pinsir in the same light. Meaning my vote is going towards leaving M-Pinsir as is.
I can't say exactly how many OU games I've played since the release of usum (it has been quite a few), but I can say that I've seen exactly ZERO Porygon-Z. I don't see it in games, I don't see how it works on paper, and I don't see how this mon hasn't been dropped already. Unrank this roboduck and move on, at this point I'm sorta tired of opening this thread to a blurb on why PZ sucks.
This has to be the nommination I'm most excited about, since I really enjoy the Sap Sipper set. Having the ability to get rid of Tapu Bulu, Ferrothorn, or Toxapex to help a mon like Ash Gren go crazy is a lot of fun. Right now I'm leaning towards the inital B- nom, since this is one of those sets that works so well because people don't really expect it. If this set takes off and people start using and thinking about it during games more often I see it's viability dropping a tad. However, I also see a scenario where this set takes off, people adapt, and then the lane opens for BD Azu to carve more of a niche as people are somewhat fearful to switch a Ferrothron into Azumarill (I laugh just thinking about it). I think the Sap Sipper set will either carve Azu a nice niche for a while, then it will either take off or drop off again (in a volatile position). Kind of hard to predict where Azu is going to be in a month or two, but for the time being I'm fine with a rise to B-.
I havn't actually tried azumarill and its perish song trapper set. Also, I'm quite a big dumbass with regards to vr nominations. xD However, I just personally think the deal with sets like these is they're only really effective if the set isn't that known which is not the case rn. Also, once your azumarill lefties are revealed, ppl are definitely gna switch into something that can beat azumarill quickly. There's no shortage of powerful pokemon in ou like the above discussed mega pinsir for 1, tapu lele another 1 i can think of the bat and many more. Pre much many things can switch into azum cuz its whirlpool and scald is so weak even lando-t can.
Doesn't seem like b- material to me cuz sets like these are as mentioned only effective when ur opponent doesn't know what it is ur up to.
i think azu should definitely go up to b- for the main purpose that its two sets have completely different checks and counters, so if the opponent guesses wrong on which mon they switch in, that can be a dead mon or maybe even more. also, each of it's sets in general are pretty good on their own so I think it should go up to b-. I'm not too sure if it should go all the way up to B though.
Making a post on some of the recent nominations as I've been studying for my Data Analysis final for the last couple of hours, and I need a break.
Pinsir isn't exactly what I call versatile, but it tends to get the job done. The SD set is very scary right now as it threatens a lot of teams. Sticky Webs made a bit of a comeback in usum, and even though it has died down since the Naga ban it still hangs around on the ladder enough to boost Pinsir up a bit. Tapu Koko is still a big issue for Pinsir as it has high usage, and checks Pinsir (unless webs are up and you're running eq>cc). Also while Celesteela usage is dipping I still don't like the fact it beats M-Pinsir so easily unless you run a knock set and wear it down a bit. Magnezone being a solid partner is nice, removing steels helps the process of ending a game with Pinsir by a great deal. In the end I can see reasons to give Pinsir the nod to A, but I also see enough reasons to keep it at A-. When this deadlock of sorts happens I tend to use the eye test, and when I look at mons like Tapu Lele, Mega Mawile, Celesteela, and Volcarona I just don't see M-Pinsir in the same light. Meaning my vote is going towards leaving M-Pinsir as is.
I can't say exactly how many OU games I've played since the release of usum (it has been quite a few), but I can say that I've seen exactly ZERO Porygon-Z. I don't see it in games, I don't see how it works on paper, and I don't see how this mon hasn't been dropped already. Unrank this roboduck and move on, at this point I'm sorta tired of opening this thread to a blurb on why PZ sucks.
This has to be the nommination I'm most excited about, since I really enjoy the Sap Sipper set. Having the ability to get rid of Tapu Bulu, Ferrothorn, or Toxapex to help a mon like Ash Gren go crazy is a lot of fun. Right now I'm leaning towards the inital B- nom, since this is one of those sets that works so well because people don't really expect it. If this set takes off and people start using and thinking about it during games more often I see it's viability dropping a tad. However, I also see a scenario where this set takes off, people adapt, and then the lane opens for BD Azu to carve more of a niche as people are somewhat fearful to switch a Ferrothron into Azumarill (I laugh just thinking about it). I think the Sap Sipper set will either carve Azu a nice niche for a while, then it will either take off or drop off again (in a volatile position). Kind of hard to predict where Azu is going to be in a month or two, but for the time being I'm fine with a rise to B-.
I agree with everything you said about Pinsir, but the thing is that yeah Koko is relevant as hell, but couldn't the same thing have been said when Toxapex was moved from A+ to S rank? Koko isn't a counter of course, but Pinsir still gets the job well done overall and I feel like that honestly it can compete with the mons in A rank. Especially Volcarona which has seen better days in SM because as of late it has really been falling off. I can agree though when you are using pinsir you aren't using Lopunny, Scizor, or Mawile but in all honesty I feel like Pinsir can be just as threatening if not more threatening than Scizor mainly because Pinsir doesn't fall flat versus more defensive teams and can still put in a ton of work early, mid, or late game vs more offensive teams the same way Scizor can. Overall yes I do agree that if it does make it to A rank I can see why, but just too many meta game trends have gone in Pinsirs favor besides Rotom-Wash which is still quite average and obviously has seen better days like in ORAS and early XY. Most of the time though when I have used, played versus or seen somebody use Pinsir, when there is a Pinsir there is a way just like Hawlucha this gen.
i don’t think pinsir deserves an a rank. while certain metagame trends do help pinsir, it is also hurt by different metagame trends. scarf lando is one of the best mons atm, and a lot run bulk as well to live hits like mawile play rough into sucker and stuff like that which means it pivots into pins, and it’s unaffected by webs too. lati isn’t a new metagame trend by any means but it also lives pinsir +2 qa,mega sets are also popular which live hits better . scarf magnezone is also good now, to trap kartana . wash as mentioned above hurts pins and it needs cc to severely hurt it at all. koko also can punish pinsir as mentioned, some even run shuca for grounds, which also helps vs pinsir.
many of the mons ppl mentioned pinsir sets up on aren’t even really set up on, sedge fatlando is a thing and needs to be scouted for, and even hp ice does a decent chunk to pins which keeps it into range for priority, and bulu has sedge and even gterrain can hurt pinsir eq, if you run it.
most of the time teams have pinsir checks. for example, in a bo matchup , most of the time pinsir is either checked by the scarfer, wash or koko, a healthy lati, or struggles to set up without going in range of smthing like greninja water shuriken. versus balance, you run into stuff Iike scarf magnezone which force mindgames and can rk you, or scarf tran. if he runs celesteela and you don’t use mag or he uses zapdos, though it’s rare now, he can also punish you. you can annoy offense but you don’t do more than that, and you realistically get 1-2 kills at max, and it’s easy to rk with ur scarfer or mimikyu or faster mon, and ho can often keep hazards up too.
ppl compared it to other megas such as scizor or mawile but scizor is the best defogger in the tier atm, which justifies its ranking, and mawile is a straight up nightmare to switch into, even w options of ice punch or iron head. additionally, stuff like zapdos drop is old news atm. the only real metagame trend is probably having webs being a little better with new toys in araqnuid, and celesteela being less good.
azu is a fun mon and defo deserves a raise. it just manhandles fatter teams, which have a real issue switching into this mon. sap sipper is also great in checking mons like sd kart or av bulu.
I havn't actually tried azumarill and its perish song trapper set. Also, I'm quite a big dumbass with regards to vr nominations. xD However, I just personally think the deal with sets like these is they're only really effective if the set isn't that known which is not the case rn. Also, once your azumarill lefties are revealed, ppl are definitely gna switch into something that can beat azumarill quickly. There's no shortage of powerful pokemon in ou like the above discussed mega pinsir for 1, tapu lele another 1 i can think of the bat and many more. Pre much many things can switch into azum cuz its whirlpool and scald is so weak even lando-t can.
Doesn't seem like b- material to me cuz sets like these are as mentioned only effective when ur opponent doesn't know what it is ur up to.
I know too well exactly what you're talking about. It's kinda sad when you actually can't threaten out that heatran because it can just eat up your whirlpools for days and taunt+ep you down eventually, or even z-flash cannon. (Whirlpool also misses..)
But as some users above me have noticed, if this set ever actually gets some traction, it may come to the point where old checks like pex and ferro are scared to come in. But the really amazing part about this set is that they have totally different checks. While perishazu is easily overwhelmed by just strong shit in general and electric types like lele, koko, pinsir, cb ttar, kyu-b etc those are all pokemon that cannot switch into standard Huge power.
In fact, I'd probably use Huge power Azumarill with leftovers to bluff perishazu if it ever gets to the point where ferro gets shook from seeing azu on the field. Of course, this is only IF this set ever gets THAT popular, but it could really generate the same duality charizard can bring from having to guess between zard x or zard y. Will Huge power azu just blow my koko away with one play rough+aqua jet? Or do I risk getting my ferro trapped by whirlpool+perish song?
EDIT: trying out chesto+resto rn and if that becomes official then it'll be far easier to bluff AV/CB/BD
Furthermore, while the weaknesses of the perishazu set that you stated are very very valid, I would argue that this set still puts azumarill waay past the mons on C+. Pokemon like thundurus, amoongus, and manectric mega are pokemon that are severely overshadowed by their more popular counterparts, tapu koko and mega venu, and fail to differentiate themselves in any way. Araquanid, shuckle, and ninetales-alola are the cornerstones of extremely niche playstyles that are beginning to lose traction and popularity already. Zard-y and camerupt-mega are wallbreakers that the metagame trends have fucked, and nihilego is a meme.
But perishazu can effectively lure+trap+kill the some of the metagame's most prominent defensive and supportive pokemon, and that's something that not even ttar or magnezone can quite boast (ofc they do actual other shit and have actual offensive presence but that's why they're A+/A-)
I'd personally see azu sitting comfortably at B with garchomp, mega latios, and alomomola, but even at B- mons like mega gyarados, stakataka, and victini are pretty relevant and somewhat effective. Even if the main thing going for it right now is the surprise factor, there's just no way perishazu is comfortable in C+
One of the arguments is that it lures and traps Pex and Ferro, but +6 knock off does like 94% min to spd pex (by far the most common set from my experience because ash gren is broken) and a similar amount to physdef ferro, so after some rocks chip they both die to belly drum anyway???
I mean sure sap sipper azu can beat ferro and pex and a variety of other mons 1v1, while belly drum cannot setup on them (otherwise ferrothorn gyros/power whips as you belly drum, and pex spams haze or scald burns). But like, if ur opponent is competent they will know azu cannot setup on them, so if u send ur azu out to their ferro they'll know ur up to something.
So to me it doesn't seem like a good lure because ferro is not going to switch into azu and risk free setup, and if u bring it in ferro is going to switch out and you'll end up trapping something else. The best you can do is force ferro into a 50/50 (is he going to trap me or is he going to use my fear and get free setup on my switch?)
Of course the surprise factor could go your way if u give the opponent the impression of "lol why is this scrub sacking his belly drum azu, time for a free power whip kill" but I wouldn't want to rely on that.
Well its been a while since i've posted anything here so to commemorate the upgrade (meh) lets get a nom out here Azumarill C+ --> B- or higher
I totally understand why Azumarill is where it is right now. The best set it can run is belly drum to try and overpower its common and prevalent checks in the metagame, but even that gets it nowhere, fast. Tapu lele can easily rk after belly drum, and so can others such as kyu-b and latios. But the prevalence of its checks forces it to run BD because any other set like assault vest or choice band would just fail when ferrothorn, zapdos, celesteela, magearna, toxapex, tapu bulu, mega venusaur, mega scizor, kartana, and rotom wash are all common and good.
To put it lightly, metagame trends are very unfavorable to the standard physical azumarill.
But fear not! This generation brought azumarill a new gift instead: sap sipper+whirlpool+perish song is now legal.
This seems like a meme set, but it actually functions as an effective surprise trapper that can remove almost every one of its checks and with a water/fairy typing that is immune to grass, it is right up there with steel/fairy in terms of just an amazing set of resistances.
So here's how it works:
I send in my azumarill against a heatran, a lando-t (unboosted), a greninja, a volcarona, keldeo, diancie weavile etc shit that azu can threaten out. Of course, I can't actually do shit to them, but its the thought that counts. As they go into their check (we'll refer to ferro/toxapex bc those are the most common/relevant/best mons out of the total list that checks azu IMO), azu uses whirlpool, and traps ferro/pex. Now ferrothorn can try to power whip or leech seed as azumarill tries to perish song, but to no avail, as sap sipper activates. Toxapex can try to use knock off or toxic, which is a bit annoying, but azu is packing rest with this set so its a small price to fuck pex. You can protect as perish song counter falls to 2, whirlpool or rest as it falls to 1, switch out into anything you want, and watch ferro/pex die.
It's really beautiful.
The surprise factor is really what makes this set work and it will definitely fade in effectiveness if it ever catches on, but this set can trap pokemon that come in after a kill or double down as well. If lando-t u-turned out as you switched into azu and they go into their SD/defog/leaf blade/sacred sword kartana, then you can whirlpool, perish song, protect, rest, and switch to just get rid of it. Of course in this case, the switch in might have to eat a boosted hit from kartana, so teammates that can check the offensive mons that azu traps are very helpful.
Here's a broad and somewhat situational list of what azu can lure+trap
Toxapex
Ferrothorn
Celesteela (not offensive)
Chansey
Clefable (not LO tbolt)
Mew (not taunt)
Tapu Bulu
Tapu Fini
Kartana (not smart strike)
Mega Venusaur (not sludge bomb)
Tangrowth
Manaphy
Mega Scizor (not u-turn or 252+ atk)
Mega Slowbro
Alomomola
Suicune (not roar)
Skarmory (not whirlwind)
Serperior
Amoongus
Generally assuming no prior attack/sp.atk boosts on mons like bulu, kartana, scizor, manaphy cuz they can overpower with coverage/stab
The best part about it all is that so many pokemon appreciate the reliable removal of pokemon like ferrothorn, toxapex, celesteela, and so many pokemon can pair well with this set. Ash gren, SG magearna, mega diancie, Mega mawile, Mega Scizor, and many more just like that shit gone, so this azu set has many many partners.
Here's a replay of this set in action: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-670526379
(pardon low ladder, decay's a bitch)
Questionable plays on both sides but the effectiveness of this set is abundantly clear nonetheless. Once the unique defensive tapu bulu set is removed, ash gren can just go crazy. You can even see perishazu acting as an "emergency" stop to the sub dd gyarados set, it can do this for many sweepers such as volcarona, zard-x (without tpunch), and gyarados, although a normal physical azu could do this as well.
In the very end, the mega bro just got hard checked by perishazu too.
Maybe i'll C/P this post to sets viability thread later but yeah I'll dump the set I used too:
Azumarill @ Leftovers
Ability: Sap Sipper
EVs: 252 HP / 68 Def / 160 SpD / 28 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Whirlpool
- Perish Song
- Protect
- Rest
Rest nice for dealing with toxic, stoss, and other chip damage mons on stall can do. If you miss Scald, you can run it over this, but then you have no recovery. 28 speed is for getting the rest off before -spd celesteela heavy slams u again, 248hp/160 SpD ensures you avoid 3hko from specs gren pump after rox (without factoring in protect), the rest goes into defense to eat gyro balls/heavy slams/bulu+kartana coverage the best u can.
If you don't mind getting outsped by steela, you can opt to run relaxed+zero ivs in speed and 96 in def to tank OTR z-stone edge stakataka pretty well
252+ Atk Stakataka Gyro Ball (75 BP) vs. 252 HP / 96+ Def Azumarill: 133-157 (32.9 - 38.8%) -- 99.8% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
But i generally like trapping steela more reliably.
In the list of Pokemon u claim sap sipper successfully traps, a lot of them get bopped by belly drum azu anyway. Celesteela dies, Chaney dies, amoongus dies, AV tangrowth dies, impish scizor dies to liquidation, bold suicune dies after rocks, Speedy mew dies to knock off even through burn (and more defensive variants die to knock + jet) clef dies, unaware walls but can lose if it gets flinched/defense dropped, Manaphys best option is to scald burn or psychic crit, even physdef Zapdos has a chance to die to jet after rocks (otherwise a great check tho). The rest of the mons u listed do beat azu otherwise.
The main thing sap sipper does differently is beat offensive grasses like bulu and Kartana, along with beating defensive mons that can eat it's coverage like Fini and mega venu (and non-whirlwind skarm, because ur never simultaneously getting rocks and a belly drum off against stall).
IDK, doesn't seem like its worth the trade off.
I question the usefulness of sap sipper Azu.
One of the arguments is that it lures and traps Pex and Ferro, but +6 knock off does like 94% min to spd pex (by far the most common set from my experience because ash gren is broken) and a similar amount to physdef ferro, so after some rocks chip they both die to belly drum anyway???
I mean sure sap sipper azu can beat ferro and pex and a variety of other mons 1v1, while belly drum cannot setup on them (otherwise ferrothorn gyros/power whips as you belly drum, and pex spams haze or scald burns). But like, if ur opponent is competent they will know azu cannot setup on them, so if u send ur azu out to their ferro they'll know ur up to something.
So to me it doesn't seem like a good lure because ferro is not going to switch into azu and risk free setup, and if u bring it in ferro is going to switch out and you'll end up trapping something else. The best you can do is force ferro into a 50/50 (is he going to trap me or is he going to use my fear and get free setup on my switch?)
Of course the surprise factor could go your way if u give the opponent the impression of "lol why is this scrub sacking his belly drum azu, time for a free power whip kill" but I wouldn't want to rely on that.
In the list of Pokemon u claim sap sipper successfully traps, a lot of them get bopped by belly drum azu anyway. Celesteela dies, Chaney dies, amoongus dies, AV tangrowth dies, impish scizor dies to liquidation, bold suicune dies after rocks, Speedy mew dies to knock off even through burn (and more defensive variants die to knock + jet) clef dies, unaware walls but can lose if it gets flinched/defense dropped, Manaphys best option is to scald burn or psychic crit, even physdef Zapdos has a chance to die to jet after rocks (otherwise a great check tho). The rest of the mons u listed do beat azu otherwise.
The main thing sap sipper does differently is beat offensive grasses like bulu and Kartana, along with beating defensive mons that can eat it's coverage like Fini and mega venu (and non-whirlwind skarm, because ur never simultaneously getting rocks and a belly drum off against stall).
IDK, doesn't seem like its worth the trade off. also it only traps ferro 85% of the time lel
Yes but u don't send ur Azu out on their Ferro or Pex. You come in on something Belly Drum Azu can set-up on and with Normalium-Z it can set up on nearly everything that doesnt OHKO it i guess. So people normally used to switch into their checks (most used are Ferro or Pex) as Azu might be CB or AV. So from there when Azu gets to +6 nothing can really take a hit anyways so most people will just sack a mon and then go into something that revenges it like Tapu Lele, Kyurem, Latios, Kartana, Tapu Bulu, Serperior, M-Venu or anything else that takes an Aqua Jet and can outspeed. Most players wont risk switching in their revenge killer right away as Azu can easily kill/wear them down so Aqua Jet can kill. Also most players won't set up when ur opponent has a mon that can revenge as Azu has only 1 attempt to sweap (sometimes 2). So to sum it up: yes Azu can reliably trap Pex, etc and now with Sap Sipper also Ferro, Tapu Bulu, Kartana, Tangrowth, Amoongus and more as they pivot in. (I guess no1 used non Sap Sipper Perish Azu before to trap Pex as it cant trap anything else and we used to have Dugtrio).
Also now that Azu can trap, the CB set is gonna be a bit better because it is an actual risk now to switch in the usual counters. So ye it should rise.^^
And btw just in general you dont send a Lure out against the mon it is supposed to lure anyways xD. I mean u can try to type "ups misclick" or smthin like that lol
Well the main thing to note with Sap Sipper Azumarill is that it checks many of the bulky pokemon that Huge Power Azumarill has trouble dealing with and it forces the opponent to play around it. Even if the set becomes popular and people start recognising it for what it is, this raises the viability of Huge Power Azumarill as you are forced to question which variant Azumarill is running as the switch-ins are completely different depending on the set.
If Azumarill is in and you don't know its set, quite often your going to have to take a risk on what to bring out to deal with it. If your defensive measure to Huge Power Azumarill is something like Tangrowth, Ferrothorn, Toxapex etc. and it turns out to be Sap Sipper, your defensive mon is trapped by whirlpool and removed after a few turns. If you switch-in something like Koko or Zapdos believing it to be Sap Sipper and it turns out to be Offensive your most likely losing that mon to BD or CB.
Sap Sipper Azumarill is also a fairly good switch-in and momentum stopper against a lot of prominent defensive pokemon. It forces out Bulu, Tangrowth, Ferrothorn, Toxapex and Celesteela along with some offensive mon's like Weaville, Serperior, and Keldeo as none of them can beat it 1v1 due to Sap Sipper, its excellent defensive typing and its relative bulk.
252 Atk Tapu Bulu Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 212+ Def Azumarill: 95-112 (23.5 - 27.7%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery and Grassy Terrain recovery
0 Atk Celesteela Heavy Slam (120 BP) vs. 248 HP / 212+ Def Azumarill: 112-133 (27.7 - 33%) -- 83.8% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Ferrothorn Gyro Ball (44 BP) vs. 248 HP / 212+ Def Azumarill: 40-48 (9.9 - 11.9%) -- possibly the worst move ever
As Sap Sipper Azumarill's 4th move is fairly optional a Resto Chesto variant could be viable as it gives less information as to what variant of Azumarill your running whilst also giving it a means of recovery to attempt a 2nd perish trap or survive the 3 turns if you originally came in at low health.
Overall i feel Azumarill deserves a rise to B- as it is a fairly good defensive pokemon in the current metagame that also increases the viabiity of BD or CB Azumarill due to Sap Sipper beating most of its checks meaning that you have to think twice about what to switch in on this pokemon until you know for sure what set its running.
I can absolutely vouch for Perish Trap Azumarill, even outside of luring stuff it's a surprisingly effective stallbreaker since it can literally just trap and remove anything defensive the opponent sends or keeps in on it, which makes it excellent for defensive teams in need of something that can break opposing stall. So even when the surprise value of Sap Sipper wears out I still think it'll be a pretty solid Pokemon. It has issues with its relatively low bulk and struggles to trap more than one thing, but it will almost always trap something, and once it does the opposing team often falls apart from there. Definitely B- material at least.
Also, could we move Hawlucha to A-? This thing's an absolutely devastating sweeper and the amount of things that actually deal with it is fairly limited. Defensive Landorus-T being on literally every other team means that it can very easily find opportunities to set up, especially if it carries Roost which btw is the best option for its 4th moveslot. The combination of Unburden and Electric Speed's defense boost makes it basically impossible to check offensively outside of I guess Ash-Gren, and not that much actually counters it outside of Zapdos, Z-Fly users and Unaware Pokemon. It performs well against pretty much any playstyle but hard stall, which has been in decline recently and is pretty easy to prepare for nowadays, especially since using Hawlucha as your sweeper as opposed to a Z crystal user like Volcarona or Zygarde opens up that Z Crystal to be used by a wallbreaker like Kartana or Kyu-B instead.
Speaking of recent meta trends, things have definitely gotten better for it recently. Its main checks such as Zapdos, Mew, and in the case of hyper offense, Mimikyu, have all gotten worse. Conversely, things it can set up on like Tyranitar and Kartana (which runs Smart Strike less and less nowadays, usually opting for Knock Off instead) and AV Tapu Bulu have just gotten more and more common and viable.
Yeah, it requires Tapu Koko (or I guess Tapu Lele) to use, but the two have such great synergy and form such a good core in general that I don't think it's an issue. Sand Rush Excadrill was A+ at certain points last gen despite requiring Tyranitar being a requires partner and this is no different. And I've certainly never used Hawlucha and thought "man, I sure wish I didn't have to use Tapu Koko" because that thing just happens to be one of the best Pokemon in tier, so of course you'd want to use it. Besides, outside of Tapu Koko it basically requires zero support to do its job because of how difficult it is to handle and how resistant it is to entry hazards.
It's way more threatening and, I would argue, better at doing what it does than anything in B+. Everything there just seems to be easier to play around: Chansey and Sableye get worn down and can often struggle to keep healthy, Weavile and MZam are easily checked by common Pokemon, Zapdos, XZard and Mantine don't like it when SR are up, etc. Hawlucha doesn't really have any issues like that, all it needs is Electric Terrain to be up, and while in theory that can cause a problem, I've never had that problem in practice, it always seems to be up when you need it to.
I think it's absolutely on par with Pinsir (who both requires more support and is easier to check), as well as MTTar and MVenu which obviously aren't really comparable in terms of what they do, but definitely seem less meta-defining, reliable at their job, easy to take advantage of, and important to account for than Hawlucha. It does not at all seem out of place in A- to me.
tldr; Hawlucha is easily one of the most consistent and threatening sweepers in the tier and should move up a regardless of the fact that it needs Tapu Koko as a partner.
I've always loved the PerishTrap sets of mons that get those certain move combinations. And the fact that Azumarill got it legally made me want to test this bad boy out. After a decent amount of matches and a few different teams, I can say in my honest opinion that this is certainly the best Azu set in the meta right now. People need to understand that it's not just a gimmick, nor does it lose all viability the moment the opponent knows the set. As stated by a few before me, it has the power to dismantle a team if run with the right teammates. I see it as a hybrid pivot with the defensive typing it has (although 100/80/80 does not really help its case all too much).
In the Meta
In the current meta it has the ability to stop Tapu Bulu (gaining traction), Ash-Greninja (which is becoming more prevalent than Protean), and others [the rest were actually mentioned in the original Azu post, so I won't mention it here.] That's a big deal. And once more, it does not need to lure these mons; it can act as a check instead, and I think that's the reason it works. You can pretty much pivot into these mons and fire a Whirlpool at whatever comes in.
Whirlpool Utility
And this is where it really builds its own case. Whirlpool is such an interesting move, and it's very underrated. What it does is that it chips damage (almost like firing off a leech seed at incoming Pokemon), but more than that it traps them. In that turn after Whirlpool was used, you have the option to shift to another Pokemon with the knowledge that the current Pokemon cannot escape. This can be used to your advantage, and is definitely very effective.
Now it's not anywhere near a broken strategy either because it's very much weak to Pokemon that have U-Turn or Volt Switch such as Mega Scizor/Rotom-Wash/Tapu-Koko/Lando-Therian...etc. But that's why I don't think it's worth anything more than a B- rating. It still needs team support to deal with these Pokemon. It's especially hard for Azumarill if you're facing a team with more than 1 volt-turner. But if you build well, it will almost always find a kill.
In the game, it tanked hits from Ash-Gren, scared Tapu Bulu (meaning that the might have known I was running the Perishtrap set), took out Victini in an instant, while also weakening Landorus-Therian and scouting using Protect. Almost every game I used it in, it took out something; and I definitely think it deserves a rise.
(Yes I know my team looks weird :x, but I like using Pokemon that I think best fit the role of what I need despite what they're ranked. If you have more viable partners for it that could make the set more effective, then all the more reason to make Azumarill rise.)
Perish Song turns ran out on Azumarill discussion -- it ends now. I am glad so many people have things to say, but this is going around in circles and it is taking up far too much of the thread's focus for something that simply is not a great Pokemon in the tier. We will vote on it in the next (not this upcoming one) VR slate. The upcoming VR slate will be posted tonight, stay tuned!
Kartana to A+ is something that has been discussed for a long time, pre-dating the release of Ultra Sun and Moon even. It has been a dynamic win condition, mid-game breaker, and late-game cleaner while also posing as one of the tier's few offensive Defog users for a long time. It only improved recently thanks to getting Knock Off and with everything taken into consideration, there really is not too much counterplay to Kartana. Moreover, it rising to A+ among the best Pokemon in the tier should be no surprise.
Zygarde to A+ is a bit less straightforward, but it has been here before and with Pokemon such as Tangrowth dropping in usage, it has been excelling once again. With a variety of sets including offensive and bulky set-up, Choice Banded, and even Substitute + Toxic, Zygarde has once again become a versatile, yet threatening and hard to counter due to the nature of Thousand Arrows.
Mega Gyarados took a hit a while back when Arena Trap banned as it was mainly used to break stall, but with some new bulky builds forming and it being a nice addition to various cheese playstyles, it has gained a bit of popularity again.
Bisharp has fairly strong priority, an anti-metagame SD Darkinium set, and the ability to abuse Defog with Defiant. Overall, it just has everything going for it a bit more practically in recent weeks when compared to before. It is still far from a top tier threat, but it is very usable and it is slowly starting to show.
Lycanrock-Dusk has now been in the tier for a while and with the Z-Move for it as well as the offensive tools it has, Lycanroc-Dusk has seen decent usage. It is not particularly good, but it is viable.
Qwilfish was discussed at length in Little Lucario's post, but basically it compliments the core of Rain teams well by absorbing Toxic Spikes and being able to Explode or weaken normal Water checks.
Mega Diancie has simply never caught on as a very popular or effective Pokemon in the tier, even with the Endeavor set seeing decent usage recently. Perhaps it will trend up with the metagame in the future, but currently it is simply not seeing much usage and not too special.
Mantine saw a lot of usage as a convenient defensive Defog user to check Greninja and Keldeo in the past, but now is much less effective with Keldeo and regular Greninja dropping in usage. Overall, it still has utility, but it does not have the same niche it previously did.
Ninetales-Alola comes and goes as the Aurora Veil archetype does and currently it is not very common, nor good, so it is dropping.
Talonflame has been pretty mediocre ever since Gale Wings took a hit and on top of that it has not been used much at all while not showing much of a distinctive niche that warrants even somewhat consistent usage.
Porygon-Z caught on early in the generation, but fell off very hard and now is not even remotely common, let alone good. It being unranked was only a matter of time and now is the time.
Other things council voted on that did not receive enough support:
Volcarona to A+
Mega Pinsir to A
Magnezone to A
Gyarados to B+
Greninja to A-
Tangrowth to B
Azelf to UR
Discussion slate:
Weavile to A-
Hawlucha to A-
Azumarill to B- is NOT on the slate, but is noted here as we will vote on it (please stop posting about it as I said in the post earlier)
tldr; Hawlucha is easily one of the most consistent and threatening sweepers in the tier and should move up a regardless of the fact that it needs Tapu Koko as a partner.
I think one of the (many) reasons having to run Koko as a partner isn't too much of a negative for Hawlucha is that while there's basically one universal Hawlucha set (with a little bit of variability on the fourth move), there are many different Koko sets that you can run in tandem with it.
The OU dex currently lists specs, z-special, z-physical, and zap plate as the four main sets, but you can also run a lot of whacky things (shout outs to z-mirror move) to compliment the rest of your team, as opposed to having two locked in stone pokemon that you have to design around.
Mega Pinsir can easy deal with S rank mons and he is very or even best mega sweeper in OU, +2 boosted aerliate hit like a truck, he can even win the game himself in shitty situations like this https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-671284292 (start 14 turn) and there is some replays which show why he should be in A rank:
and many more replays like this, yeah 4x weak to rock is awful + scarm and cele but with good support he can deal with whis, almost all sticky webs teams have M Pinsir in squad because is easy to setup and only u need just click moves to get ko
Welp. Araquanid still didn't get a rise. So I guess I'll just keep adding onto my prior arguments for it to go to B-.
Once again, Araquanid is the best Webs setter that the playstyle has ever had. And Webs is back to being a pretty decent playstyle as evidenced by raises to decent Webs mons this time around (Bisharp, Kartana) and the discussion of another (M-Pinsir).
However, unlike past Webs setters, Araquanid actually supports its team in ways beyond simply setting Webs. Here are mons that Araquanid's bulk and typing help to check for common Webs mons:
Heatran
Blacephalon
Lando-T lacking Stone Edge
Zard-Y
Excadrill (extra nice given it's a Spinner)
Keldeo
Mega Swampert
M-Scizor
Gliscor (especially nice given how prevalent of a Defogger it is)
Infernape (if anyone still uses it)
Greninja
That is a pretty strong list. And checking these mons creates support for all manner of Webs teammates including Bisharp, M-Mawile, Jirachi, Kartana, A-Maro, Blacephalon, Victini, M-Medi, M-Pinsir, Tapu Bulu, etc. So not only can it set Webs for these mons, it can take hits and eliminate checks to your Webs win-cons. Something past Webs setters rarely, if ever, could do
And you can add onto the list of things it kills when you add in the prospect of Mirror Coat. Because of Araquanid's great bulk, it can lure in its own checks, soak up insanely hard hitting attacks, and fry them with Mirror Coat. "But BeardyBennett," you may be saying, "how hard of hits can this thing really live and Mirror Coat on?"
252 SpA Choice Specs Tapu Koko Thunderbolt vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Araquanid in Electric Terrain: 320-378 (94.3 - 111.5%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
So it actually does have a chance to live a Specs Koko Tbolt in Terrain. That's not even accounting for if you opt to run Sash on your Araquanid. So while Mirror Coat seems like a niche option to run, it is actually surprisingly viable and can wipe out major offensive mons on the opposing squad.
So once again, Araquanid seriously deserves a rise from C+ to B-. It is the best Webs setter, and it can support its team in so many ways beyond simply setting Webs. With Webs teammates rising, it's time for the greatest Webs setter to rise as well.
I support Hawlucha to A-, seeing such a reliable, powerful and threatening sweeper that is enjoying the recent meta threat not in the A ranks is really disappointing. Give this man the recognition it deserves.
Once again, Araquanid is the best Webs setter that the playstyle has ever had. And Webs is back to being a pretty decent playstyle as evidenced by raises to decent Webs mons this time around (Bisharp, Kartana) and the discussion of another (M-Pinsir).
However, unlike past Webs setters, Araquanid actually supports its team in ways beyond simply setting Webs. Here are mons that Araquanid's bulk and typing help to check for common Webs mons:
Heatran
Blacephalon
Lando-T lacking Stone Edge
Zard-Y
Excadrill (extra nice given it's a Spinner)
Keldeo
Mega Swampert
M-Scizor
Gliscor (especially nice given how prevalent of a Defogger it is)
Infernape (if anyone still uses it)
Greninja
That is a pretty strong list. And checking these mons creates support for all manner of Webs teammates including Bisharp, M-Mawile, Jirachi, Kartana, A-Maro, Blacephalon, Victini, M-Medi, M-Pinsir, Tapu Bulu, etc. So not only can it set Webs for these mons, it can take hits and eliminate checks to your Webs win-cons. Something past Webs setters rarely, if ever, could do
And you can add onto the list of things it kills when you add in the prospect of Mirror Coat. Because of Araquanid's great bulk, it can lure in its own checks, soak up insanely hard hitting attacks, and fry them with Mirror Coat. "But BeardyBennett," you may be saying, "how hard of hits can this thing really live and Mirror Coat on?"
252 SpA Choice Specs Tapu Koko Thunderbolt vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Araquanid in Electric Terrain: 320-378 (94.3 - 111.5%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
So it actually does have a chance to live a Specs Koko Tbolt in Terrain. That's not even accounting for if you opt to run Sash on your Araquanid. So while Mirror Coat seems like a niche option to run, it is actually surprisingly viable and can wipe out major offensive mons on the opposing squad.
So once again, Araquanid seriously deserves a rise from C+ to B-. It is the best Webs setter, and it can support its team in so many ways beyond simply setting Webs. With Webs teammates rising, it's time for the greatest Webs setter to rise as well.
I never thought I'd say this, but I agree that araquanid deserves a rise. For this post I'll be focusing on how much better it is than other webs users.
Shackle: this mon is more bulky, and seemingly has a better typing. Like araquanid, it can be used multiple times throughout a match. Unlike araquanid, however, it is a very passive mon, and literally any steel type can shut it down. It has few match ups that it actually excels in, while araquanid has multiple top tier threats that can do little against it. Also, no one likes to take a STAB liquidation, except for the rapidly decreasing bulky water and grass types in the tier.
Smeargle: it's pretty simple. It's used once, and then it gets destroyed. And then a defogger comes in, and gets rid of the hard fought webs. While it may be nuisance, that's all it is: a nuisance.
I'm sure a lot of builders are realizing that Magnezone is a powerful Pokemon to have in a team. As uh, quite weird to see that Scarf is actually one of its better sets (if not the best), Magnezone is a huge support Pokemon that eliminates some of the more dangerous Steel-types - both offensive and defensive - for other Pokemon to take advantage of the opposing team.
A couple examples of Pokemon that really benefit from this:
This is another Pokemon I think is borderline A right now. A lot of its checks and counters are eliminated through Magnezone, and Pokemon such as Knock Off Landorus-T can remove Shed Shell from the rare Skarmory or Leftovers from Celesteela. It's very hard for a lot of teams to consistently stop Mega Pinsir. Actually, one of the reasons I don't think it's quite A at the moment is because Scarf Magnezone really throttles Mega Pinsir sweeps.
Another really powerful Mega. Once Celesteela, Ferrothorn, and Mega Scizor are trapped and killed it's really hard to switch into this thing reliably other than praying that you're switching in on its STABs when you're immune to them (Tyranitar for Psychic and Draco for Koko), and both of those get caught by Earthquake. Being a Heatran switch-in is really nice right now since the only set that really takes down Mega Latios is Corkscrew Crash.
Tangrowth being less frequent to see is big because it leaves Landorus-T, Mega Scizor, and Ferrothorn as checks to Zygarde. Granted, Ferrothorn has to be very careful because of Substitute blocking Leech Seed for example, but it's still an okay check. Magnezone eliminating two of the three is pretty big for Zygarde, and Magnezone technically can fuck around with Landorus-T since Flash Cannon still does respectable damage and, with Substitute + Steelium Z, can really fuck over Landorus-T pretty badly if needed.
Truthfully there are Tapu Bulu and Clefable still, but those Pokemon can be overwhelmed by Iron Tail, wear-down (Clefable just barely escapes 2HKOes from Band Thousand), and SubToxic can be aggravating for Tapu Bulu too.
There are a lot of examples that can be used, but I'm sure many will agree with me that Magnezone is a very good Pokemon to use on teams right now since every team has at least one Steel-type, and the majority of them lack outs unless you're Magearna, Magnezone, Mega Scizor, or Skarmory (due to Volt Switch on both Magnezone and Magearna, U-turn on Mega Scizor, and Shed Shell for Skarmory).
To clarify - I am aware the council rejected Magnezone to A; however, I think it should be seriously re-considered as I think it is one of the Pokemon that were originally on the slate that could be justified with up ranking with a little more support.
