[Updated] Abusing Underestimation - OU Semi-Stall Peak 1692

Introduction

Here I am for what must be my 6th or 7th RMT of Gen 6, my third in OU, after my Mega-Absol team, and my Gravity team. The focus of this team is to use some under rated Pokemon, and some under rated, or unexpected sets. The end result is currently one of my best OU attempts since I started competitive battling in Gen 4 (my best peaks have always been in other tiers, despite OU being my favourite). On thing I will note, whilst not overly important, is that this team does not contain any Legendary Pokemon, this is purely because I also plan to use this team on cartridge and it takes far too long to get the perfect IV's and natures etc. However I will consider all suggestions for this team, even if I can only implement them on Showdown.

Brief View of the Team:
charizard-megax.gif
aegislash.gif
gliscor.gif
hitmontop.gif
sableye.gif
garchomp.gif


Team Building:


The idea for this team began around 2 or 3 weeks ago, I had just seen a replay of a bulky Charizard X set destroying a team, and it looked so fun to use. The build there was more specially defensive, but I saw even more potential in a physical tank build, to take better advantage of its naturally higher defence, and abuse Will-O-Wisp that little bit more. In addition to this I also really wanted to try a version of the SubToxic Aegislash that has been more common recently. For this I decided to go full on defensive to allow it to get past some more special threats than it could on a more offensive spread.
charizard-megax.gif
aegislash.gif

The next step was to find a reliable hazard setter for the team, I went through a number of options (Landorus-T, Heatran, Terrakion, Garchomp, Excadrill) before I settled on my choice, Gliscor. It is very bulky, has a very nice speed tier, and has some brilliant recovery. In addition its standard EV spread is very good, and can accomodate some moveset changes, which I opted for, using Knock Off and Stealth Rocks over the standard Toxic and Substitute.
charizard-megax.gif
aegislash.gif
gliscor.gif

The team started to take shape now, with a Semi-Stall/Bulky Offense vibe running through it. I wanted some hazard removal to assist the team, and fit into the aforementioned themes of the team. Here is where my most unexpected Pokemon comes in, and the inspiration for the nicknames on the team. Hitmontop, with Intimidate and Assault Vest it is rather tanky, despite having no means for recovery. The natural high Special Defence makes it perfect for Assault Vest and it can beat spinblockers with ease and a tiny bit of prediction. It also happened to have very good defensive synergy with the rest of the team.
charizard-megax.gif
aegislash.gif
gliscor.gif
hitmontop.gif

The next slot on the team was the hardest to sort out as I didnt have a role specified for it. I tried many Pokemon, ranging from Special Sweepers, Scarf users, Specific counters to threats such as Talonflame and Pinsir. In the end I went with one of the more reliable Pokemon I have used recently, and it again fits in with the Semi-Stall mentality. Sableye was selected as it could use Prankster to assist the team, and has access to many supportive moves. It also only adds one weakness to the team.
charizard-megax.gif
aegislash.gif
gliscor.gif
hitmontop.gif
sableye.gif

The final slot was chosen to fill a couple of roles. I didn't have an out and out attacker, for wall breaking or sweeping, and I did need something to help deal with Fly Spam and general for hitting hard. This ended up being a case of testing 1 Pokemon and keeping 1 Pokemon, I went for Rough Skin Garchomp. It hits hard, with Rocky Helmet it easily handles Talonflame and it has that trolly speed tier to handle base 100's and lower with ease.
charizard-megax.gif
aegislash.gif
gliscor.gif
hitmontop.gif
sableye.gif
garchomp.gif

In-Depth Description:

681_Aegislash_Shiny.png

Hitmonslash (Aegislash) (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Stance Change
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 248 HP / 8 SAtk / 252 SDef
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Shadow Ball
- Toxic
- Substitute
- King's Shield

Role on the Team:
Aegislash functions as the main Special Wall on the team, thanks to it's base 150 defences, whilst in Shield Forme. Also acts as a Status spreader, and can use ToxicStall as a win condition if the situation requires it.
Description:
Aegislash is the absolute definition of a Tank. This set can just take hits for days, even without investment in its Defence can even handle some Physical hits. The main function of this set is to Stall, using Toxic to break down a variety of Walls and Sweepers alike, in conjuction with King's Shield and Substitute. Substitute is used mainly to block any stray Will-O-Wisps and to scout the opposing Pokemon. King's Shield works brilliantly with this, as Substitute blocks the Status King's Shield cannot. It also has that nice little bonus effect of lowering the attack of the Pokemon that makes contact by -2. Shadow Ball is the attack of the set, stopping it being Taunt bait and hitting rather hard in Blade Forme even uninvested. Blissey and Chansey pretty much stop the set, however if they are the last Pokemon on the team Aegislash will always win. I feel that I could maybe optimise the EVs a little more to ensure I can survive certain hits, and then either speed creep, increase my Shadow Balls damage output, or give me some mixed defensive abilities. However Aegislash always puts work in, and usually takes out at least 1 Pokemon on the other team.
Synergy:
Ghost - None
Dark - Hitmontop
Fire - Charizard,Garchomp
Ground - Gliscor
charizard_x_4_by_drphantom24-d6p8vbj.png

Hitmonzard (Charizard) (M) @ Charizardite X
Ability: Blaze
EVs: 248 HP / 164 Def / 96 Spd
Jolly Nature
- Flare Blitz
- Dragon Claw
- Roost
- Will-O-Wisp

Role on the Team:
Charizard X functions as a Physical Tank, walling even some super effective hits, and being able to retaliate. It spreads status for the team in the form of Burn also.
Description:
Charizard was chosen as the teams primary Physical defence thanks to it's ability to check potential counters and checks when using a more defensive set up. It has natural bulk on the Physical side as it stands, with base 111, and has access to Will-O-Wisp to spread burn, as well as the chance to through Flare Blitz. This coupled with the 164 Defence Evs allows Charizard to tank and beat some common threats, such as Mamoswine and Landorus-T. Another aspect which allows it to be effective is the 100 base speed, which allows it to out speed a lot of the bigger threats in the current meta. With the Jolly nature and just 96 EVs it out speeds positive natured base 80's which include the fairly common and powerful Mamoswine. The remaining 248 EVs go into HP, hitting an odd number for 4 switches into rocks (2 in none mega form), it also adds to the overall bulk. The moveset is fairly self explanatory, I opted for Flare Blitz and Dragon Claw for the attacking moves, both getting a boost from STAB and Tough Claws. Flare Blitz is the riskier option, but it allows me to grab some KOs I would otherwise miss, and the recoil can be Roosted off. Roost is the next move on the set, general healing, perfect for a tank like this. Will-O-Wisp is the final move, spreading burn for the team, making its job as a tank even easier due to the attack reducing nature of burns, and the additional damage.

252 Atk Mamoswine Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 164 Def Mega Charizard X: 258-306 (71.8 - 85.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk burned Mamoswine Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 164 Def Mega Charizard X: 129-153 (35.9 - 42.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0 Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Thick Fat Mamoswine: 260-308 (71.8 - 85%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after burn damage
0 Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Thick Fat Mamoswine: 260-308 (71.8 - 85%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Mamoswine's sporting the increasingly common Oblivious (to block Taunt) will always be reduced to the sash by Flare Blitz, if Will-O-Wisp is used first, Mamoswine will always lose.
252 Atk Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 164 Def Mega Charizard X: 282-332 (78.5 - 92.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk burned Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 164 Def Mega Charizard X: 141-166 (39.2 - 46.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
With a successful burn Charizard will ALWAYS win one on one with offensive Landorus-T, defensive variants lose anyway, one thing to keep note of here is the recoil damage that will be sustained in beating it.
-1 0 Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Landorus-T: 157-186 (49 - 58.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery and burn damage
0 Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Landorus-T: 237-279 (74 - 87.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery and burn damage
0 Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Landorus-T: 237-279 (74 - 87.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Dragon Claw vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Landorus-T: 157-186 (49 - 58.1%) -- 59% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Dragon Claw vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Landorus-T: 157-186 (49 - 58.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery and burn damage
As you can see even with no attacking investment Charizard can threaten it's own checks significantly
While these calcs dont account for Rocks and does require some switching luck, it does demonstrate that Charizard can take some rather incredible Physical hits. This set also beats one of the standard DD's biggest counters, Azumarril.
Synergy:
Dragon - Aegislash
Ground - Gliscor
Rock - Aegislash,Garchomp,Hitmontop
shiny_gliscor_global_link_art_by_trainerparshen-d6uycku.png

Hitmonscor (Gliscor) (M) @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Poison Heal
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 184 Def / 72 Spd
Impish Nature
- Earthquake
- Knock Off
- Stealth Rock
- Protect

Role on the team:
Gliscor is the teams Rocks setter, it is also a secondary Physical wall, and offers Knock Off support for the team.
Description:
Gliscor is a variant on the standard build that has been around since last gen, with the EVs, nature, Item, and a couple of the attacks Identical. The bits that have changed are the use of Knock Off over Toxic, and Stealth Rocks over Substitute. The main reasoning for the changes was to accommodate what was already on the team without disrupting anything, Aegislash is the Toxic Staller, and it can take all the Special Attacks Gliscor attracts, in addition Gliscor covers the Physical hits aimed at Aegislash, being immune to Ground. Also only Garchomp on the team can learn Stealth Rocks as well, and I felt it easier to fit here than on him. Knock Off is an amazing attack this gen, and it has the added bonus of stopping my being hard walled by Skarmory and opposing Gliscor, meaning I can remove their items, and even prevent a Gliscor from using its Poison Heal. Protect remains from the standard build, letting me scout and guarantee activation of my Toxic Orb. Earthquake is for STAB and hit some key Pokemon hard, such as Excadrill which can sometimes be a minor issue if it plays around my team a little.
Synergy:
Ice - Aegislash
Water - None
Hitmontop_zps8350af01.jpg

Hitmontop @ Assault Vest

Ability: Intimidate

Shiny: Yes

EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SDef

Adamant Nature

- Sucker Punch

- Close Combat

- Rapid Spin

- Earthquake
Role on the Team:
Hitmontop is the Hazard Removal, through the use of Rapid Spin, is the secondary Special Wall/Tank.
Description:
Hitmontop is something that is rarely seen up in the dizzy heights of OU, which I feel is a little unfair on it. Compared to the other common fighting types it may lack a little offensive power, put it offers some utility and support that sets it apart from the rest. It is also a good user of Assault Vest due to its natural Special Bulk, and Intimidate to cover the Physical side of things. In terms of helping the team, it can usually guarantee the removal of hazards at least once a game, and it can handle some of the more common spin blockers, Earthquake is on the moveset specifically for opposing Aegislash, and Sucker Punch can hit all Ghosts who try to attack it. Close Combat is the STAB of choice, mainly due to not having access to Drain Punch. It hits extremely hard thanks to 252 Atk and Adamant nature, and is my main attack for dealing with the Pink Blobs. Rapid Spin is obvious in its usage. The EVs grant large bulk, especially thanks to Item and Ability, and maximum attack.
Synergy:
Psychic - Aegislash, Sableye
Flying - Aegislash
Fairy - Aegislash
Sableye_by_meandmyrobot-d388yke.png

Hitmoneye (Sableye) (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SDef
Careful Nature
- Knock Off
- Will-O-Wisp
- Recover
- Taunt

Role on the Team:
Sableye is the teams second Burn Spreader, it also spreads Taunt, removes items and acts as a Special Wall
Description:
Sableye could be seen as an oddball for the team, due to some of it's roles already being shared on the team. However to make it stand out, it does have Prankster, which makes it so incredible in terms of Support. Sableye is usually the lead in battles, due to Hazard leads seemingly being the common trend at the moment. Taunt allows it to prevent hazards, Status or setting up from happening. Knock Off is nearly always the second attack selected, as Item removal is so powerful this Gen, which a lot of Pokemon relying on their Items for recovery, increased damage, or to help set up. Recover is seen on every Sableye, as it is near guaranteed to happen due to it being usable through Prankster. Will-O-Wisp is the last move, spreading Burn alongside Charizard, again with priority. I am tempted to use a Physically Defensive spread here, to further work alongside Will-O-Wisp. The current spread is standard for Sableye, maximum HP for overall bulk, max Special Defence to tank that side of things, and the 4 Atk to give a tiny boost to Knock Off
Synergy:
Fairy - Aegislash
WTF_Garchomp__by_MDarksands.jpg

Hitmonchomp (Garchomp) @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Rough Skin
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SAtk / 252 Spd
Naive Nature
- Earthquake
- Dragon Claw
- Stone Edge
- Fire Blast

Role on the Team:
Garchomp is the sole 'Sweeper' on the team, often saved for late game, it also functions as an answer to Flying Spam through its ability and item.
Description:
Garchomp is the most recent addition to the team, and is the odd one out in terms of build. It is the primary offensive presence on the team, providing some much needed power. Garchomp was chosen for it's ability to KO a lot of common Pokemon in the tier, in part due to running Fire Blast to hit Ferrathorn and Skarmory. Earthquake and Dragon Claw are STAB moves, and Stone Edge very nicely compliments Earthquake especially. Rough Skin is chosen as the ability, and punishes Pokemon who hit it on the Physical Side, Rocky Helmet adds additional damage alongside, this is vital to the team being able to check Mega Pinsir and Talonflame. The EVs give max speed and attack, with 4 in Special Attack for Fire Blast. Naive is chosen over Hasty due to me wanting to take more Physical hits.
Synergy:
Ice - Aegislash
Fairy - Aegislash
Dragon - Aegislash



The current record for this team is 50/21/0 (W/L/T) with my ranking, and highest peak at 1692, on the alt OU I Am Doz, I have used it on other alts but it wouldn't show the true performance of the team as I have used other teams on my other alts.
As pointed out, I have a weakness to Keldeo, and some water Pokemon in general, most noticeably Gyarados. Whilst I would rather not replace Charizard on the team, due to it being the starting point for the team, I am open to any suggestions.

One change I have considered is fitting in Vaporeon, to function as a check to Keldeo, and being able to act as a cleric for the team as well, any opinions on this would also be greatly appreciated.
Replays:
This section will be continously updated!

Close battle, though some misplays, shows Zards ability to see out a battle from a bad position:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-135242731
A very close battle against an UU team in OU:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-134884295

Importable:
Hitmonslash (Aegislash) (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Stance Change
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 248 HP / 8 SAtk / 252 SDef
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Shadow Ball
- Toxic
- Substitute
- King's Shield

Hitmonzard (Charizard) (M) @ Charizardite X
Ability: Blaze
EVs: 248 HP / 164 Def / 96 Spd
Jolly Nature
- Flare Blitz
- Dragon Claw
- Roost
- Will-O-Wisp

Hitmonscor (Gliscor) (M) @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Poison Heal
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 184 Def / 72 Spd
Impish Nature
- Earthquake
- Knock Off
- Stealth Rock
- Protect

Hitmontop @ Assault Vest
Ability: Intimidate
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SDef
Adamant Nature
- Sucker Punch
- Close Combat
- Rapid Spin
- Earthquake

Hitmoneye (Sableye) (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SDef
Careful Nature
- Knock Off
- Will-O-Wisp
- Recover
- Taunt

Hitmonchomp (Garchomp) @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Rough Skin
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SAtk / 252 Spd
Naive Nature
- Earthquake
- Dragon Claw
- Stone Edge
- Fire Blast
 
Last edited:
It looks like a great stall team, Personally I really like underrated Sets, Like bulky Talonflame. I run a Talonflame set with Sp Defense EV's, It's really underrated and I love to win with it. Overall I love your team, Would you mind if I tryout your team?
 
Specs Keldeo runs through your entire team because you have no Water resist.

252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Hitmontop: 165-195 (54.2 - 64.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Sableye: 252-297 (82.8 - 97.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard X: 306-361 (85.2 - 100.5%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO

It's also the most common Keldeo set. I'd recommend running Mega Venusaur over Mega Charizard, as Charizard isn't adding anything to your team in terms or support or defensive synergy. If you want one tailored around beating Keldeo while also having the good physical bulk it needs to check stuff like Azumarill and such, you can run Bold 252 HP / 148 Def / 108 SpDef, which allows it to survive two Specs HP Flyings.
 
You can happily try the team out if you like!!

Keldeo is something that I am weak to I acknowledge, I have handled it well through full use of switches and prediction, however I know that isn't an effective way of beating a threat.

Outside of replacing Zard X what else could I use to stop it effectively that wouldn't upset the balance of the team?

Thanks for the comments/rates so far.
 
I appear to have reached the ceiling for my team at present, peaking at 1692, any suggestions to help the team push on will be greatly appreciated
 
I've had a similar problem with Keldeos on many of my teams in the past, so I've done some exploring into ways to straight up stop it. The most common stop to Keldeo in the meta is probably the lati twins, which still falter at the hands of icy wind variants. The best mon for countering Keldeo imo would jellicent (especially cuz the team is meant to have unknown sets or mons). Jellicent is immune to both of keldeo's stabs and will take no damage from any other moves it could run. It would fill a roll similar to sableye, just without prankster. Although it doesn't get prankster, it does get the advantage of a free turn as keldeo gets forced straight off the field. My other two favorite Keldeo counters are slowking (or bro) and cresselia. King resists both stabs and has that nice regen for sustainability. Cress just has massive defenses. Idk where you would fit those two in, but they are worth the thought. Gl in the future.
 
I didn't even consider some of the Pokemon you suggested, ill have to try some of them in place of Sableye, thanks for the rate.
 
Really cool team! I have to agree that sableye is the weak link on this team, as it doesn't offer any notable defensive synergy. One commentor recommended you try mega venusaur, which would solve your keldeo problems but would also force you to remove zard. In order to avoid that, my thought was to try amoonguss.


Amoonguss@black sludge
-Spore
-Giga Drain
-Foul Play / Stun Spore
-Clear Smog / Sludge Bomb
evs: 252 HP / 40 Def / 216 SpD
nature: Calm

Amoonguss easily takes on keldeos that plague your team, and spreads status just as well as sableye, having access to the coveted spore. The ability to use foul play, stun spore, and clear smog prevents it from becoming setup fodder, and regenerator allows it to not run synthesis.

As long as you play carefully and use spore at the right time, amoonguss should be a good member of your team.
 
The only issue I have with replacing Sableye is the loss of priority taunt. However I will try Amoonguss and Jellicent over Sableye and see how well they work on the team.
 
Your team seem very reliant on Aegislash, your best switch in on Ice, Fairy, Dragon, Flying is him, and his only recovery is Leftovers, so it can be easily wear down. This can become a big problem if he dies because the opponent can just spam this 4 types, so maybe you have to do some work on the type sinergy of your team. A wish passer could be helpful to heal Aegislash, Garchomp and Hitmontop.
 
While Aegislash is a very important part of the team, it isn't called upon as much as you would think. Though you do make a valid point on the Wish Passer, which is why I have considered Vaporeon, as it would help with the Keldeo weakness and allow me to pass wishes, and have access to Heal Bell. Do you think that would be a useful suggestion?
 
While Aegislash is a very important part of the team, it isn't called upon as much as you would think. Though you do make a valid point on the Wish Passer, which is why I have considered Vaporeon, as it would help with the Keldeo weakness and allow me to pass wishes, and have access to Heal Bell. Do you think that would be a useful suggestion?

I agree with Vaporeon, Sylveon can work well too, the specially defensive can counter Keldeo pretty hard, Hyper OHKO it with a bit of prior damage and isn't 2HKO by any of Keldeo's moves, even Specs. It's up to you, Sylveon helps against some dragons and kills keldeo pretty easily, while Vaporeon passes bigger Wishes and helps with water and ice weakness
 
If you were choosing between the two, Vaporeon and Syvleon, which one would you choose? I am currently thinking Vaporeon, though Sylveon would form a Dragon Steel Fairy core which could be useful
 
If you were choosing between the two, Vaporeon and Syvleon, which one would you choose? I am currently thinking Vaporeon, though Sylveon would form a Dragon Steel Fairy core which could be useful
Usually I would go for Sylveon, but your team seems to need a bulky Water to cover water and ice weakness. Be careful with SR, if Specs Keldeo uses Secret sword on you with SR damage it's a 2HKO
Who are you going to take out to put Vaporeon?
 
That I haven't decided yet, currently all team members serve a purpose, I just need to work out which is the least usable.
 
3 quick things.

1. aegi is supposed to be a tank...and with shadow balls super effective coverage being meh, it should run 252 Spa and 240 hp with 16 speed (that speed creep you mentioned).

2. mega venusaur over zardX, you dont need 2 burn users. just use the 252 hp / 148 def / 108 sdef to help bulk.

3. garchomp needs a scarf on this team. mega zardX at +1 sweeps your whole team, and can get in on any wisp and easily get to +1. it can also get a free switch every time you kill anything without chomp, zard, or aegi on the field. its a huge threat to your team that needs to be adressed asap.
 
Changing that spread on Aegislash would also defeat the object of it, the evs allow it more survivability, which to this team is more important than the power, however I will test it to see if I find it more effective.

Megasaur over Zard X isn't currently something ill consider, as at present it is one of the key members of the team, and responsible for a lot of my victories, also Saur leaves me weaker to flyspam teams.

ScarfChomp is something I have thought about and will try to implement.

Also the hide tag thing is a glitch that won't remove itself haha!!
 
Through testing, I have found that without sableye my team just fails, can't put a specific reason onto it, but it just doesn't work the same. Would replacing Garchomp be a better idea for this type of team?
 
That seems to be the main issue in changing this team for the better, every member serves a purpose, for example Chomp is my sweeper and answer to FlySpam, Charizard with its spread and nature acts as a lure for would be checks and cripples them with ease, and tanks many Physical hits, Gliscor sets rocks, Sableye gives me Taunt support and additional status, Aegislash spreads Toxic and is the special wall, hitmontop tanks other special hits and spins rocks.

I would need to replace something like for like while covering the aforementioned weaknesses. To pinpoint the weak link without breaking the balance of the team is proving difficult for me.
 
Hmmmm, I got an idea, it might be terrible but idk. Since each team member serves a purpose, then you solve that problem by finding pokes that fill the same purpose but also accomplish whatever secondary goal you want. What if.. And I have never tested this so I have no idea how it would work, you have starmie serve as you Keldeo counter. Slap on an assault vest and you've got a spinner that can replace top. It also gives your team a special attack, since atm, you have one special attack on the whole team
 
That could actually work nicely, it would give me some more speed on the team also which would be appreciated, what spread would be most effective, a 252/252 timid or something more bulky?
 
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