Unpopular opinions

I have absolutely no enthusiasm for their style and their existence is now starting to feel like it actively infringes on one that I DO care about since it's the Dev team putting work into a game that does not retain any of the design or "vibes" that I got invested in the IP for.
Speaking as someone who grew up on classic Sonic, this is a feeling you just gotta get over. Once a franchise is this long in the tooth and has offshoots into all kinds of sub-audiences, you gotta come to terms with the fact that they're no longer going to be able to please the entire audience all of the time, and that they honestly should probably never try to do so because it just runs the risk of pissing off everybody equally. Best you can hope for is that they just cycle through different approaches on a regular basis.

I'm at the point where if I get a Mania or a Superstars once every console generation or so, I'm fine with that. Sega can spend the rest of their time working on Shadow the Hedgehog edgelord shlock if they want or more movies that I'm never going to watch. That stuff has their audiences to serve. No reason we can't all eat.

But on the broader point on open world Pokemon, I do agree that SV isn't as egregious a departure from traditional franchise design as it could be. If nothing else, it is kind of nice to be able to traverse a single big map without it being broken up by multiple GB/DS era "guard houses" everywhere, and that's one small plus worth underscoring in a game that's otherwise a performance mess.
 
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I’m honestly of the opinion that the switch era of Pokemon has been one long experimental dev cycle building up to the tenth generation.

Look at what was shared and developed from SW/SH through to PLZA via SV and PLA and you can see how the open world and changes in gameplay have been influenced one to the other.

The bit that always gives me pause for thought is knowing that all four of these titles definitely share commonalities in their engine development - this has been extrapolated from the Tera leaks and spoken about at length on YouTube by a number of commentators.

Gen 10 I hope changes it up but absolutely takes the best of all of these forward.
 
Speaking as someone who grew up on classic Sonic, this is a feeling you just gotta get over. Once a franchise is this long in the tooth and has offshoots into all kinds of sub-audiences, you gotta come to terms with the fact that they're no longer going to be able to please the entire audience all of the time, and that they honestly should probably never try to do so because it just runs the risk of pissing off everybody equally. Best you can hope for is that they just cycle through different approaches on a regular basis.

I'm at the point where if I get a Mania or a Superstars once every console generation or so, I'm fine with that. Sega can spend the rest of their time working on Shadow the Hedgehog edgelord shlock if they want or more movies that I'm never going to watch. That stuff has their audiences to serve. No reason we can't all eat.

But on the broader point on open world Pokemon, I do agree that SV isn't as egregious a departure from traditional franchise design as it could be. If nothing else, it is kind of nice to be able to traverse a single big map without it being broken up by multiple GB/DS era "guard houses" everywhere, and that's one small plus worth underscoring in a game that's otherwise a performance mess.
I'd say that for a fair chunk of my previous favourite Nintendo series, Pokemon included, that one new game fitting my interests each console generation would be a noticeable improvement from the Switch 1. OoT-style 3d Zelda has already been mentioned, but I'd also list its 2d equivalent (Echoes of Wisdom is still far too TotK-style for my liking) and 3d Mario in the other examples. I feel like the reasonable extension of trying to get this setup implemented for Pokemon is that gen 10 should make no attempt to be open-world given how much that style dominates gens 8 and 9.
 
I’m honestly of the opinion that the switch era of Pokemon has been one long experimental dev cycle building up to the tenth generation.

Look at what was shared and developed from SW/SH through to PLZA via SV and PLA and you can see how the open world and changes in gameplay have been influenced one to the other.

The bit that always gives me pause for thought is knowing that all four of these titles definitely share commonalities in their engine development - this has been extrapolated from the Tera leaks and spoken about at length on YouTube by a number of commentators.

Gen 10 I hope changes it up but absolutely takes the best of all of these forward.
I wouldn't go that far, but they're clearly experimenting out there and coming up with good ideas.

As much as people bash SV, that game had ambition. They were actually trying out there. Sure, there were some dumb, dumb decisions, and I'll always drag them over those, but performance issues? On a game that rushed? On a console that weak?

Nah, that's not on the devs.
Here's my simple take: SV's Open World elements neither add nor take away anything significant for me in terms of progression. Being able to just quick travel and roam around to catch Pokemon is cool, but only insofar as it lets me play with certain Pokemon sooner in the adventure than more limiting games (like running into Level 35+ territory to evolve my Gallade before Iono).

SV is arguably my favorite game with an Open World design SPECIFICALLY because it doesn't design around it in a significant manner. You know what happens when you make an Open World with a bunch of borderline procedural tasks comprising most of the content? You gut any replay value and the game loses its long-lasting appeal when most players won't have any inclination to revisit it while chewing through the next 100+ hour game in a franchise. BOTW doesn't offer me anything on this front because if I want a short Zelda game I'll rerun ALttP, and if I want a longer playthrough I could get more out of marathoning Majora's Mask, Wind Waker, and/or Twilight Princess than hunting Korok Seeds and Shrines until I remember those aren't fun in the Open Games.

Part of this is also me being bitter because I resent the Zelda OW games for their impact on the franchise as much as gaming at large. It took 11 years to get a new traditional styled Zelda game (between LBW in 2013 and Echoes of Wisdom in 2024). As of this post we are now further removed from the most recent Linear 3D Zelda (Skwyward Sword in November 2011) than it was from the FIRST 3D Zelda (OoT in Nov 1998), and than OoT was from the inception of the franchise (February 1986). It's also not helped by the fact that these games are turning into a small "sub-series" with a direct sequel using the same world (OoT and MM shared chronology but were in totally different settings, as were the Toon Link games. Only ALBW fits the bill up to this point) and two Musou spin-offs that just cover events mentioned-but-not-depicted to fill in the lackluster narrative (vs the original Hyrule Warriors being an outside-mainline Crossover spectacle). To draw a comparison, it's like when Final Fantasy 13 came out, proved divisive at best... and then Square gave it 2 sequels and tried tying it into other verse projects like Type-0 and Versus 13 (before that became 15). I am well aware my critical perception is probably a minority, but it's the same feeling of "I can't stand this iteration but it won't go away," probably made worse KNOWING that popularity instead of creator stubbornness is ensuring that (vs, say, the divisive newer Paper Mario games).

I get the Wild games were huge sellers, but I have absolutely no enthusiasm for their style and their existence is now starting to feel like it actively infringes on one that I DO care about since it's the Dev team putting work into a game that does not retain any of the design or "vibes" that I got invested in the IP for. SV can debate quality but I have no hesitation saying they fit right in as mainline Pokemon games, which is not something I can give to "better" Open World games like BOTW or TOTK. I wish people would stop focusing on how SV are good or bad Open World games, especially because I'm not convinved a "good" one of those even exists past the year of 2013-2015 with GTA 5 in general, or Xenoblade Chronicles X in a Nintendo specific context, and instead "Open World or not, does this design gel with the IP or is the name slapped on to sell a different idea?"

tl;dr Open World Zelda is worse than Open World Pokemon.
SV's open world really has no purpose. At no point the game truly benefits from it.

BotW is an interesting case. The only mechanic I REALLY wish they ported to it from TOTK to the Switch 2 version is the innate weapon bonuses because weapons in BotW are kind of a bit too bland.

The mechanics are surprisingly well-thought out, the game was refreshing at a time the Zelda franchise really needed a shake up, and then... A sequel was announced. Oh boy, they'll fix all these issues that BotW had, right?

Nah, just add some bullshit Banjo-Kazooie: Nuts and Bolts mechanics.

They had SIX years to understand the assignment and give us some dungeons. That was it. That was the single biggest issue with BotW. But nope.

That game is technically impressive, but maaaaaan, there's not much of a point if the decisions are dumb! This is even worse than HGSS, at least that had the excuse of being a remake!
 
Ima just going to ignore the SV-shaped elephant in the room and say that it's cathartic to see THAT section of loud Zelda fans constantly bashing Pokemon games, saying they're all the same, unpolished, etc etc etc, and then they just purchase the 70$ Ultra Breath of the Wild.
 
Ima just going to ignore the SV-shaped elephant in the room and say that it's cathartic to see THAT section of loud Zelda fans constantly bashing Pokemon games, saying they're all the same, unpolished, etc etc etc, and then they just purchase the 70$ Ultra Breath of the Wild.

Loud Zelda fans are plenty obnoxious, but I don’t think this “gotcha” really holds up.

Like… look, I love Pokémon games more than any other kind of game, and I even tend to prefer the newer ones over the older ones, so I’m probably the last person who’s gonna join in on a weekly dogpile about how modern Pokémon is all just shit now. And I’ve also done my share of defending the kind of workload that Game Freak have to deal with that I think fans still don’t quite grasp. So understand that I’m saying this from a position of absolute love and appreciation for Pokémon and all the work its creators put into it, but…

… saying that Pokémon doesn’t compare to modern Zelda games is absolutely fair. The very idea that Tears of the Kingdom is just “Ultra Breath of the Wild” is frankly preposterous. USUM didn’t do a single thing that even remotely compares to the kind of technical engineering behind stuff like the Ultrahand, Ascend, or Recall abilities, and USUM didn’t add an entire shadow Alola that’s as big as the original map. Seven Ultra Hallways don’t even begin to compare to combined substance of the Depths, sky islands, and caves of TOTK.
 
pokemon is better than zelda because it has turtonator

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^ look
 
Pokémon is restricted from leaning too hard into open world because we can't have the player character actually interacting with the world in any meaningful manner (so anything beyond picking up items) without the aid of Pokémon.

Zelda doesn't have that problem.
 
Loud Zelda fans are plenty obnoxious, but I don’t think this “gotcha” really holds up.

Like… look, I love Pokémon games more than any other kind of game, and I even tend to prefer the newer ones over the older ones, so I’m probably the last person who’s gonna join in on a weekly dogpile about how modern Pokémon is all just shit now. And I’ve also done my share of defending the kind of workload that Game Freak have to deal with that I think fans still don’t quite grasp. So understand that I’m saying this from a position of absolute love and appreciation for Pokémon and all the work its creators put into it, but…

… saying that Pokémon doesn’t compare to modern Zelda games is absolutely fair. The very idea that Tears of the Kingdom is just “Ultra Breath of the Wild” is frankly preposterous. USUM didn’t do a single thing that even remotely compares to the kind of technical engineering behind stuff like the Ultrahand, Ascend, or Recall abilities, and USUM didn’t add an entire shadow Alola that’s as big as the original map. Seven Ultra Hallways don’t even begin to compare to combined substance of the Depths, sky islands, and caves of TOTK.
I'm pretty sure "Ultra Breath of the Wild" was referring to the Switch 2 port, not Tears.
 
SV's open world really has no purpose. At no point the game truly benefits from it.
The point of the open world is to get any Pokemon you want at any time. Get ANYTHING you want at anytime.

When teambuilding in prior Pokemon games, you needed to reach specific checkpoints in order to get what you wanted. Want to use Scyther for Gardenia in DPP? Too bad, you gotta wait until you get to route 210 before you get it. This is mostly fine, but it limits how much you can truly customize your Pokemon in a given playthrough.

With SV (and SS to some extent), you basically have the entire kitchen sink out of the box. All the games TMs, evolution items, and Pokemon are available before the first gym, barring a handful of exceptions. The games also make it much simpler to acquire these resources without making it "free" - TMs for example require a moderate amount of effort to make- so its not entirely free, but there is still a bit of progression being made on that front whenever you get Pokemon materials. Moves being relearnable from anytime is also a nice QoL that makes customizing around certain situations even more fun. Getting good items for a general team is also easier now.

I'd say the open world format in the latest games is a massive improvement to the franchise for those reasons - building your dream team is much easier out of the gate, with far fewer restrictions than there were in the past. And while I wouldn't say this "requires" you to interact more with the mechanics, it does make it easier to interact with them. I think SV's systems between the crafting, materials, and multiple different characters with differing movesets lends itself well to the open world grind loop too, since certain builds will always require some sort of progression which you have a few means of attaining.
 
I'm pretty sure "Ultra Breath of the Wild" was referring to the Switch 2 port, not Tears.

I guess it could be, but that would only be the case if you for some reason want to by the Switch 2 version as a separate, discrete new item rather than just purchasing the $10 digital upgrade path or getting it bundled with an NSO subscription. And if it’s your first time buying either game, then you’re essentially just paying the same price that you would have before ($60 for BOTW, $70 for TOTK) + $10 for the upgrade path.

The only people shelling out $70 for TOTK on Switch 1 and then another $80 for TOTK on Switch 2 are like… physical edition collectors, and in that case, avid Pokémon collectors don’t really have any high ground to stand on given that they’ve (sorry, we’ve) been buying different versions of the same game 2-4 times for 30 years now. :psysly:

(Disclaimer: I don’t know how these nuances differ with other currencies.)
 
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