A man can dream though… a man can dream…
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Unpopular opinions
- Thread starter antemortem
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A man can dream though… a man can dream…
Final Boss music ranking, including PMD because why not. If the game has several arguable final boss themes, I've listed which song I ranked as "the final boss theme".
X+ - EoS (Dialga's Fight to the Finish), PSMD (Dark Matter Phase 2)
X - SV (Turo/Sada), BRT (Defy the Legends)
S - LGPE, B2W2, PLA (Volo), GTI (The Bittercold)
A - HGSS, Plat, ORAS, SWSH
B - SM, XY, USUM, GSC
C - FRLG
D - RBY
F - RSE, BW (Ghetsis), BDSP
Notes:
-PMD final boss songs are instantly, inherently cooler on average for actually naming their tracks. "Defy the Legends" is an insanely hard line, that fits into the story perfectly, and leads into a banger track.
-I actually tend to prefer BDSP's soundfont to DPP, I think DPP has one of the weakest soundfonts in the series, but BDSP's Cynthia theme just doesn't hit. I think part of this to me is Cynthia's theme feels like a BW track in sheep's clothing, with a lot of soundfont elements the rest of the game doesn't really use IIRC, but BDSP seems to be more in line. More safe.
-LGPE's final boss song slapping so hard even though you're fighting motherfucking Trace is so funny.
-I gotta be honest, despite the rest of the OST slapping I think any of the songs you can pick for BW's "final boss" all are kinda stinky. N's theme? Mid. Ghetsis? Ass. Alder? Not terrible, but also the worst champion theme probably.
-RSE -> ORAS is probably the biggest swing up and that's because, while I generally like the RSE soundfont, it trying to be High BPM feels weird compared to ORAS' rocking ass track.
-SWSH may seem a bit high but to me, while it's a slower paced track than normal, just hearing the Hall of Fame in it makes me feel emotional. Great song.
X+ - EoS (Dialga's Fight to the Finish), PSMD (Dark Matter Phase 2)
X - SV (Turo/Sada), BRT (Defy the Legends)
S - LGPE, B2W2, PLA (Volo), GTI (The Bittercold)
A - HGSS, Plat, ORAS, SWSH
B - SM, XY, USUM, GSC
C - FRLG
D - RBY
F - RSE, BW (Ghetsis), BDSP
Notes:
-PMD final boss songs are instantly, inherently cooler on average for actually naming their tracks. "Defy the Legends" is an insanely hard line, that fits into the story perfectly, and leads into a banger track.
-I actually tend to prefer BDSP's soundfont to DPP, I think DPP has one of the weakest soundfonts in the series, but BDSP's Cynthia theme just doesn't hit. I think part of this to me is Cynthia's theme feels like a BW track in sheep's clothing, with a lot of soundfont elements the rest of the game doesn't really use IIRC, but BDSP seems to be more in line. More safe.
-LGPE's final boss song slapping so hard even though you're fighting motherfucking Trace is so funny.
-I gotta be honest, despite the rest of the OST slapping I think any of the songs you can pick for BW's "final boss" all are kinda stinky. N's theme? Mid. Ghetsis? Ass. Alder? Not terrible, but also the worst champion theme probably.
-RSE -> ORAS is probably the biggest swing up and that's because, while I generally like the RSE soundfont, it trying to be High BPM feels weird compared to ORAS' rocking ass track.
-SWSH may seem a bit high but to me, while it's a slower paced track than normal, just hearing the Hall of Fame in it makes me feel emotional. Great song.
I disagree for RSE's placement, but agree with DPP's soundfont being bleh. The town themes are nice along with Cynthia's battle theme, but a lot of the battle themes outside the first use that shit bass. Dialga's theme has a cool E piano beginning, but then it gets repititive despite cool time shifts. Giratina's theme has a neat chaotic start, but then the shit bass hits and it becomes noisy to almost sounding like white noise, which I don't think was intended. Actually it reminds me of a BW high energy track like you mention for Cynthia...just with a piss soundfont. I think the DPP theme Showdown uses is one of the better battle themes, though the intro screeches a bit
HGSS is better compared to DPP, but I'm tired of Kanto remixes mostly. I prefer GB chiptunes admittedly, so I have bias. Voltorb flip is a bop
HGSS is better compared to DPP, but I'm tired of Kanto remixes mostly. I prefer GB chiptunes admittedly, so I have bias. Voltorb flip is a bop
ngl I like the piano that plays in Cynthia's room more than the actual battle theme.
I will never forget my initial reaction when the AI Sada/Turo theme and accompanying story sequence first leaked: "How the fuck did we go from Chairman Rose to this in the span of one game"
SV managed to get some of the best bangers of the series tbh. Almost every battle BGM is amazing.
That said, I think SwSh's main outlier as far as battle music goes is Eternatus' one. Idk, that one just slaps for me. The others are ok, most are good, I love the battle tower one too, but the Eternatus' one just slaps way harder than the other for some reason.
I guess now's a good time to mention that I think Battle at the Summit is the perfect piece of Pokemon music. Every so often a theme song is created that is not just amazing, but perfectly embodies whatever it is appended to. Think of the John Williams Superman theme: It is as if the full history of the character and everything he was ever designed to symbolize was synthesized by a divine machine into sound. When that iconic trumpet rises and climaxes? That is Superman. That is hope, courage, truth and justice and the American way.
I think Battle at the Summit is that song but for Pokemon. What better musical closer for the 20th anniversary of the series than the condensed sound of adventure and excitement?
I think Battle at the Summit is that song but for Pokemon. What better musical closer for the 20th anniversary of the series than the condensed sound of adventure and excitement?
Arceus was a great addition to the series because its lore helps people truly into understanding the world of Pokémon try to piece everything together and form connections, whether within the same generation or cross-generational. Pokémon is a series after all, so a lot of what previous gens established has and will be utilized in modern and future Pokémon games.
Arceus is a simple answer to everything with other Pokémon forming as more layers of complexity to serve as a more direct cause behind what goes on in Pokémon.
For example:
Arceus -> Plate -> Xerneas/Yveltal -> Ultimate Weapon -> Mega Evolution
Arceus -> Palkia/Dialga -> Many layers of dimensions (let's use Ultra Space as an example) -> Ultra Wormholes/Space-Time Rifts, Space-Time Distortions
Arceus -> Plate -> Kyogre -> the ocean
Here's what I believe personally based on a ton of research:
Arceus -> Plate -> Xerneas/Yveltal -> life force + a Pokémon's own unique characteristics -> generational phenomenon.
For example
Life force + the refraction of light from Necrozma's prism = Z-Moves
Life force + Eternatus = Dynamax
Life force + some fancy turtle boi = Terastallization.
I believe the powers of Xerneas and Yveltal are what perpetuate all phenomenon in the world of Pokémon. I also believe they derive from the plates of Arceus, which the Arceus movie refers to as life plates, as they give life to environmentals and to Arceus itself. They are fragments of Arceus, which the Japanese translation of the Meadow plate confirms is the origin of all Pokémon powers. Legends Plate in the English translation sorta backs this up by saying it's the essence of all creation.
This idea would also back up about Xerneas and Yveltal several months ago here
I think Arceus was created as a means to help is understand the world of Pokémon, to help us understand the power that's inside. Gen 4 fumbled on the executuon of this Pokémon and ruined the way it was meant to be interpreted but they've been taking steps to fix it since.
I also don't think Arceus's case contradicts Mew because the series has been actively trying to say Arceus wasn't a Pokémon when Mew was created. Arceus existed, but Arceus is Pokémon's god. The Pokémon itself is just an avatar it uses to interact with the world of people and Pokémon. It can be created at any point and any time, infinitely. Mew is literally just a Pokémon and always way. Arceus was never just a Pokémon, but first and foremost, rather something that defines the very essence of all creation. This is parallel to how Palkia encompasses all of space, Dialga encompasses all of time, and Giratina embodies all antimatter. The Pokémon themselves are their visual personifications of their concepts. The avatars.
Oh uh tl;dr Arceus is great. Ikik may sound biased from a dude named RANSEI but hey I gave off my explanations!
Arceus is a simple answer to everything with other Pokémon forming as more layers of complexity to serve as a more direct cause behind what goes on in Pokémon.
For example:
Arceus -> Plate -> Xerneas/Yveltal -> Ultimate Weapon -> Mega Evolution
Arceus -> Palkia/Dialga -> Many layers of dimensions (let's use Ultra Space as an example) -> Ultra Wormholes/Space-Time Rifts, Space-Time Distortions
Arceus -> Plate -> Kyogre -> the ocean
Here's what I believe personally based on a ton of research:
Arceus -> Plate -> Xerneas/Yveltal -> life force + a Pokémon's own unique characteristics -> generational phenomenon.
For example
Life force + the refraction of light from Necrozma's prism = Z-Moves
Life force + Eternatus = Dynamax
Life force + some fancy turtle boi = Terastallization.
I believe the powers of Xerneas and Yveltal are what perpetuate all phenomenon in the world of Pokémon. I also believe they derive from the plates of Arceus, which the Arceus movie refers to as life plates, as they give life to environmentals and to Arceus itself. They are fragments of Arceus, which the Japanese translation of the Meadow plate confirms is the origin of all Pokémon powers. Legends Plate in the English translation sorta backs this up by saying it's the essence of all creation.
This idea would also back up about Xerneas and Yveltal several months ago here
I think Arceus was created as a means to help is understand the world of Pokémon, to help us understand the power that's inside. Gen 4 fumbled on the executuon of this Pokémon and ruined the way it was meant to be interpreted but they've been taking steps to fix it since.
I also don't think Arceus's case contradicts Mew because the series has been actively trying to say Arceus wasn't a Pokémon when Mew was created. Arceus existed, but Arceus is Pokémon's god. The Pokémon itself is just an avatar it uses to interact with the world of people and Pokémon. It can be created at any point and any time, infinitely. Mew is literally just a Pokémon and always way. Arceus was never just a Pokémon, but first and foremost, rather something that defines the very essence of all creation. This is parallel to how Palkia encompasses all of space, Dialga encompasses all of time, and Giratina embodies all antimatter. The Pokémon themselves are their visual personifications of their concepts. The avatars.
Oh uh tl;dr Arceus is great. Ikik may sound biased from a dude named RANSEI but hey I gave off my explanations!
Speaking of final boss themes, I generally disagree with the feeling that champion themes have got less "intense". I don't mind champion themes sounding more motivating than intimidating (I believe Alder started the trend), as long as the theme captures the feeling of the battle against them it's fine by me. Like for the opposite case, I think Geeta's theme tries to capture that old feeling of "challenging daunting champion" (it's the only SV theme composed by Masuda I believe?) but it comes off pretty generic imo.
To count spinoff themes I don't see brought up as often: Grandmaster Theme and and GR King Theme from the Pokemon TCG for Game Boy games go in my S+, they're soooo good. The former can easily fit into a mainline champion theme, and the latter sounds like an all out war zone!
To count spinoff themes I don't see brought up as often: Grandmaster Theme and and GR King Theme from the Pokemon TCG for Game Boy games go in my S+, they're soooo good. The former can easily fit into a mainline champion theme, and the latter sounds like an all out war zone!
thank you for bringing these to my attention. they are both excellent
I'm bothered by the perception people have of Sun & Moon, especially regarding the first island. Yeah, the game can be a bit intrusive with certain tutorials and the fact that they all have bespoke cutscenes contributed to how people see Melemele as "tutorial island".
That being said, labeling this first part of the game as just tutorials is just plain incorrect. A lot more time is spent on characterizing the cast and setting up arcs that will pay off much later into the game. The story just wouldn't be half as good if they didn't spend the time making sure you knew these people early on!
Besides, the pacing early on is important to the roleplaying experience. Unlike previous games, the adventure starts small, making you explore the local neighborhood and establishing a sense of place to these early areas that are usually brushed over by the narrative. This, in turn, gives more narrative weight to the moment you and the crew get to leave Melemele to explore new horizons. It gives a sense of adventure that feels earned in a way previous games haven't really captured.
This is not me saying the games are faultless: not being able to access the Pokémon Center until one hour in is aggressively stupid, and if the game ever gets a remaster someday they better add a text speed-up function at the very least. However, brushing off the first island as just "pointless tutorials to be skipped" is straight up not knowing how stories work.
That being said, labeling this first part of the game as just tutorials is just plain incorrect. A lot more time is spent on characterizing the cast and setting up arcs that will pay off much later into the game. The story just wouldn't be half as good if they didn't spend the time making sure you knew these people early on!
Besides, the pacing early on is important to the roleplaying experience. Unlike previous games, the adventure starts small, making you explore the local neighborhood and establishing a sense of place to these early areas that are usually brushed over by the narrative. This, in turn, gives more narrative weight to the moment you and the crew get to leave Melemele to explore new horizons. It gives a sense of adventure that feels earned in a way previous games haven't really captured.
This is not me saying the games are faultless: not being able to access the Pokémon Center until one hour in is aggressively stupid, and if the game ever gets a remaster someday they better add a text speed-up function at the very least. However, brushing off the first island as just "pointless tutorials to be skipped" is straight up not knowing how stories work.
My problem with SuMo is that a slow start is a very quick way to lose players like myself after Gen 6, for all its faults, had you on your way at a decent clip, and the "start small and open things up" approach didn't really pan out for me with Sun and Moon's world design since a lot of the area design still felt like connected landmarks rather than a large world map ala 3D Zelda games when you reach Hyrule/Hyrule Field, or Gens 8 and 9 having those huge expanses you can go multiple ways with off the bat.
Personal bias because I have family from Hawaii and thus have been there quite a bit myself, but it had the same structure and feeling as"what Island are we touring today on the vacation?" where instead of one world it was a collection of locations segmented from each other. In turn the later islands didn't feel like the world expanding to me so much as "okay what's the next sequence I'm railroading through?"
Gen 7 with Alola as the setting is quite possibly the WORST Pokemon region they could have chosen in terms of starting with this kind of pacing. This is compounded by Pokemon's production values feeling anywhere from 5 to 15 years behind the times for trying to tell a more ambitious story (something it's STILL struggling with in Gen 9 even if I have felt more receptive personally).
My go-to comparison on this topic if Final Fantasy X thanks to a similar linear structure, interpersonal character conflicts (lasting scars from parental mistreatment), and player/cast structure (Tidus in that game being your POV but not necessarily the Pivotal character for the story). I can give some amount of leeway since even Launch PS2 is more resources than a 3DS game has to work with presentation wise, but it still begs the question why the series is lacking in production values of predecessors and contemporaries (Bravely Default ~3 years prior on the same system ALSO had voice acting for major cutscenes with a comparable cast size) as well as basic QoL features (a fast forward/cutscene skip is a basic feature that FFX was criticized for lacking in 2001) that all bog the pacing down. A lot of RPGs infamously will alternate between higher-quality animation for major setpieces, and static model conversations with stock animations and minimal camera movement for just back-and-forth: Pokemon's issue is that even the majority of its "big" cutscenes tend to use the latter approach. In 2D this was tolerated a bit more because the sprites were always much more stylized/abstract approximations of what was unfolding, but the 3D models have significantly more detail that they do not put to use.
It's to the extent that the gameplay and story delivery actively get in the way of each other (they can still land, but are less than the sum of their parts), and I think is one reason people were more critical of the series since its jump to 3D: I can't just ignore the story if that's not what I want to engage with on this run, I must sit through story sequences reintroducing or reiterating information in stale, voiceless, minimally animated cutscene before I can resume interacting. Pokemon is trying to write bigger stories, but they're not telling it any more effectively than in the "excuse plot" days, yielding the equivalent of a scriptwriter turning in a first draft and storyboards for what should be a completed project.
tl;dr Sun and Moon have good story, but dear lord, it is HORRIBLY told and actively conflicts with the game as a medium compared to other iterations like the Manga and Anime of the same generation.
Personal bias because I have family from Hawaii and thus have been there quite a bit myself, but it had the same structure and feeling as"what Island are we touring today on the vacation?" where instead of one world it was a collection of locations segmented from each other. In turn the later islands didn't feel like the world expanding to me so much as "okay what's the next sequence I'm railroading through?"
Gen 7 with Alola as the setting is quite possibly the WORST Pokemon region they could have chosen in terms of starting with this kind of pacing. This is compounded by Pokemon's production values feeling anywhere from 5 to 15 years behind the times for trying to tell a more ambitious story (something it's STILL struggling with in Gen 9 even if I have felt more receptive personally).
My go-to comparison on this topic if Final Fantasy X thanks to a similar linear structure, interpersonal character conflicts (lasting scars from parental mistreatment), and player/cast structure (Tidus in that game being your POV but not necessarily the Pivotal character for the story). I can give some amount of leeway since even Launch PS2 is more resources than a 3DS game has to work with presentation wise, but it still begs the question why the series is lacking in production values of predecessors and contemporaries (Bravely Default ~3 years prior on the same system ALSO had voice acting for major cutscenes with a comparable cast size) as well as basic QoL features (a fast forward/cutscene skip is a basic feature that FFX was criticized for lacking in 2001) that all bog the pacing down. A lot of RPGs infamously will alternate between higher-quality animation for major setpieces, and static model conversations with stock animations and minimal camera movement for just back-and-forth: Pokemon's issue is that even the majority of its "big" cutscenes tend to use the latter approach. In 2D this was tolerated a bit more because the sprites were always much more stylized/abstract approximations of what was unfolding, but the 3D models have significantly more detail that they do not put to use.
It's to the extent that the gameplay and story delivery actively get in the way of each other (they can still land, but are less than the sum of their parts), and I think is one reason people were more critical of the series since its jump to 3D: I can't just ignore the story if that's not what I want to engage with on this run, I must sit through story sequences reintroducing or reiterating information in stale, voiceless, minimally animated cutscene before I can resume interacting. Pokemon is trying to write bigger stories, but they're not telling it any more effectively than in the "excuse plot" days, yielding the equivalent of a scriptwriter turning in a first draft and storyboards for what should be a completed project.
tl;dr Sun and Moon have good story, but dear lord, it is HORRIBLY told and actively conflicts with the game as a medium compared to other iterations like the Manga and Anime of the same generation.
I'll have to disagree here, because the sumo manga is probably one of the most dogshit manga arcs I've read in my entire life, somehow even the swsh pokespe arc is better paced and easy to follow than sumo, even though its boring as fuck
See the fact the SM arc of Special is (seemingly, haven't read it) debatably a worse told story than the actual game really amuses me. Books like it and the various Sonic comics should have better storytelling essentially by default because that's literally all they do! They don't have to think about the bajillion other considerations of game design that Game Freak's writers have to take into account, and in the case of direct adaptations by coming out after the game they have at least a little bit of time to look at audience reception to its story beats. If the SM chapter is really as bad as you say then that's an absolutely huge, embarrassing failure
kusaka tried to fit every single point in the games as a story point. its a writing mess of an arc and its only value has been reading to laugh at it tbh. it's the main reason people don't think its as bad as swsh, because the swsh arc has sooo many chapters where nothing happens, something exciting does, it gets dropped and then more of nothing happens. At least sumo is so incompetent its funny
I don't get this notion that SuMo have "bad production values". You can argue that about the Switch games, sure, but SuMo isn't falling behind the 3DS big hitters (without counting mostly on-rails stuff like Kid Icarus).
I also disagree with the point of how cutscenes are presented, partially because I don't value voice acting as much when it comes to immersion (I play a lot of older games and games made by small teams). Like yeah, Bravely Default has a lot of voiced lines, but most of the story is conveyed in flat visual novel-esque sequences, while SuMo has a lot of intentional camera movement in a 3D space, so you could argue in favor of any of those when it comes to production values.
I don't think you're wrong for not vibing with SuMo, I've bounced off Xenoblade because it does nothing for me in a gameplay or storytelling sense, despite knowing why people see it as a masterpiece. It's fine to be disinterested, but it's not necessarily the games' fault.
(Also I wanna make clear that I'm not here saying "SuMo is worth it because of the plot", I also think the gameplay is the best in the series and it helps to elevate the plot, but that's another story)
Adding to this I'm also pretty confused by the assertion that the bulk of Alola's major story setpieces are bland simple back and forths with the overworld models. Pika pal was talking about the 3D games in general granted (maybe this is more of a problem with SV? Paldeaheads please inform me) but looking at SM/USUM you got full, very well-animated cutscenes for:
-The intro sequence
-Tapu Koko saving the player
-The Totems' intros
-Nebby's final evolution
-Nihilego possessing Lusamine
-Necrozma merging with Nebby and becoming Ultra Necrozma
Any really important beat that doesn't have a dedicated cutscene tends to be pretty lowkey (e.g. a lot of Lillie's big moments in the second half). This isn't even counting stuff like in-battle trainer animations!
Yeah, weird both IDW Sonic and later Pokemon Spe fail so hard for adapting
Admittedly for Spe it was admitted frustration with playing Gen 7, so there's some honest admittance. Rotomdex being immediately shat on gets me
Rotom dex slander? KILL THIS MANGA IMMEDIATELY!!!!!
kusaka has a contempt for sumo while also forcing himself to adapt everything in the games as main parts of the story. he brought his misery upon himself tbh, while older games werent nearly as complex as sumo + usum, he had the sense that some parts of the world would just appear once and that's ok. he got caught up trying to make a grandiose plot that gets completely shat on by the games themselves lmfao
also why did he try to give the pikachu clothes relevance
also why did he try to give the pikachu clothes relevance
So basically exactly the same as the Archie Sonic comics then.
I said before in another thread that the main problem about the SM Special Arc is that it flows so quickly to register anything. I was about to say Kusaka had trouble adapting this one because of how story heavy the game is compared to the ones before it, but then I remember that the BW arc was adapting a game that focused on plot more than its predecessors and it did a pretty good job overall! So in that case, considering the games were getting released yearly consistently in the 2010s, I think it's safe to say he wasn't doing his best having to handle many arcs at the same time. BW2 had multiple hiatuses and its period extended throughout three generations, and it really shows with how that arc went...
Also I need some evidence that states Kusaka hates sumo bc of the new trend of some SM fans being so "oh, NO ONE gets these games like I do! It's not that they have pacing issues, everyone else is the problem!". They quickly became more annoying than the BW crowd that blames pokefans for getting the low sales number of 15.64 million units.
Maybe that's because people actually don't get these games like we do lol, also yeah that's the cycle it's our turn at the wheel. It's been like 5 years of Gen 5 dickriding, and before that it was years of Gen 4 dickriding, Gen 6 is probably getting skipped at this point so it's Gen 7's turn for people to start appreciating it.
Give it 7-10 years for Gen 9 to be the game getting appreciated, and then Gen 10, and then etc.