There's a problem with Ubers, (Or at least to me.) and that's how certain pokemom's mechanics invalidate so many others. My most prominent bone to pick is with Marshadow, but be warned. I don't like Marshadow, and I probably never will. So I may be biased. But Marshadow is always a huge factor in most teams. He's extremely powerful, but not too much so that he's going to be banned. Marshadow has spectral thief, which is just an absurd move. It does respectable damage, but it's effect is stupid. It steals boosts, but that on its own isn't that bad. But it doesn't swap boosts, it takes them. There are no repercussions to spamming this move, because not only does it only take boosts, it only takes positive ones. So a swords dance Lucario who's used Close Combat twice is always going to lose without a crit, and Marshadow is now at plus 2 with no debuffs. This could have worked well, but he also has excellent speed, and enough bulk so that he can survive most priority moves even at plus 2 (After using Close combat, I switched in my Scarfed Kyreum W and used Ice Beam, which didn't kill from my max investment with jolly. It left him at 1 hp so he killed me with another close combat.). And he has technician and stab shadow sneak, with the best offensive typing in game that is also unresisted. This all of these in isolation is fine, but combined it's just ludicrous. And, he also doesn't really have any true counters. he has some very good checks, but very few, if any, will get away unscathed, or don't have a chance that Marshadow is carrying an 0HKO coverage move. If you go to his checks and counters, the only one who can really come in and murder him is Mega Salamance. It makes it frustrating to fight him. Now, this may be not as big of a problem as I perceive it, maybe I'm just a noob who need to "Get good". There are more, but what makes it more frustrating is that I know he will not get banned or nerfed. He will almost certainly stay the same, and I just have to deal with it. Primal Groudon also has this, but to a much lesser degree, as he has his weak special defense to work around. Marshadow is usually fast enough to negate this. Dusk Mane has a different form of this. He can be so many different sets, and no pokemon can really counter all sets, (Well, maybe Yeveltal can, not quite sure about whether there are any viable sets that beat the Flying Bacon.) He can run defensively, he can run a balance between bulk and power, he can run Solgaleo's Z move, and he can run as Ultra, which can run swords dance or 4 attacks, or even run a special set. (But this is probably done better by Dawn Wings.) But I've never found him to be that much of a threat, and I've never been swept b or dominated by him without my mistake.
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Metagame Ubers Tiering Policy Review: An Overview
- Thread starter Nayrz
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As a long time Ubers player (I've played since BW2!) I think Ubers in it's current state isn't really that bad when it comes to outright broken elements, in fact I think this tier is as diverse as it's been since the BW2 era. As to what I think Ubers should be, this tier is the refuge for things too broken for normal (OU) play yet are capable of existing in a conventional, somewhat competitive metagame (typical smogon clauses) with the power scale turned up a notch. I think when you start to remove clauses Ubers encroaches more and more on AG, making one of the tiers largely unnecessary due to the overlap. I don't think this is an outcome many wish for, which is why I argue against the testing of species clause or other core factors. As for banning things from ubers, bans should be considered on a case by case basis, with either significant community outcry(goth, ultra nec potentially) or things being blatantly screwed (mray) being the two prerequisites.
As to what should be done next generation, I think a Mega Rayquaza suspect is inevitable and should happen, if it doesn't go through then testing during the next generation and so on should be done. Something being banned from Ubers is, in my opinion, a last resort and shouldn't be a permanent state unless deemed completely noncompetitive by nature(evasion).
I personally play this tier because I get to use all of the broken and OP things I want and it's still fun and competitive due to everything being as broken and everyone else using the same broken things. As to why I don't play AG it's not only not competitive but just feels like too much of a deviation from the standard tiers, with Ubers being the happy medium.
As to what should be done next generation, I think a Mega Rayquaza suspect is inevitable and should happen, if it doesn't go through then testing during the next generation and so on should be done. Something being banned from Ubers is, in my opinion, a last resort and shouldn't be a permanent state unless deemed completely noncompetitive by nature(evasion).
I personally play this tier because I get to use all of the broken and OP things I want and it's still fun and competitive due to everything being as broken and everyone else using the same broken things. As to why I don't play AG it's not only not competitive but just feels like too much of a deviation from the standard tiers, with Ubers being the happy medium.
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I think that having tiers that operate as banlists is a bad idea. I believe that we should have Ubers as much of a valid tier as OU. And I also think that bans should happen. AG needs to exist, and so does Ubers. But when something becomes mandatory on a team to be competitive is when a ban needs to happen. M-Ray was absolutely necessary to have a good team. Ubers has a problem with unviable pokemon being trapped here. When was the last time you saw Genesect on a good team? Or Arceas Bug? That"s why I think that a new tier should be created, maybe a new Borderline. But that also brings up a problem. Borderline's should be playable tiers. The fact that their are pokemon who are in an unplayable category is a bad thing. There's no reason to have this. New tiers is always a good thing, as long as it doesn't become uncompetitive. (AG is a special case.)
Why would it be so weird to force Mega-Ray to hold a specific item? That's how it works for both Groudon and Kyoge, and never having played gen 4-7, it strikes me as an oversight of Gamefreak (?) that Rayquaza isn't required to hold a specific item to mega evolve (or revert to primal form, these inconsistencies...).
Obviously there's no way to test if it's the "best way". But there is no "best way" anyway, because that's subjective.
In my opinion Ubers should be the tier where battle clauses (moody, baton pass, sleep clause, etc.) exist, but no limits for what pokemon or moves or items can be used are in place.
If, however, ubers should be a "fun metagame", then just ban stall. Easy.
Dovah brings up an important point which is the role the community can play in determining suspect tests/bans. Personally, I think this should be included in the new policy in some way. If there is enough community outcry for a ban, should it take precedence over any other aspect of the policy? Policy purity is a nice thing but point does it serve if the community becomes disinterested in the metagame? This is an exaggerated hypothetical but I think the idea is worth exploring.
To elaborate a little on the issues complex band can have, dubbleclick, in this case, subjective would be an understatement. Even if any ban/unban has a degree if subjectivety, there are guidelines and clear boundries to help us make the decisions. In the hypothetical scenario of MRay being too powerful for x Ubers metagame and with us having the objective of nerfing it in some way to avoid a ban; to what degree should it be nerfed? There’s a huge variety if degrees just for that alone. The question of how shouldn’t be brushed aside either, it would have to be determined in some way before the proposed MRay nerf could even be put to vote. It’s just a mess and a completely arbitrary way to avoid dealing with the actual problem.
To elaborate a little on the issues complex band can have, dubbleclick, in this case, subjective would be an understatement. Even if any ban/unban has a degree if subjectivety, there are guidelines and clear boundries to help us make the decisions. In the hypothetical scenario of MRay being too powerful for x Ubers metagame and with us having the objective of nerfing it in some way to avoid a ban; to what degree should it be nerfed? There’s a huge variety if degrees just for that alone. The question of how shouldn’t be brushed aside either, it would have to be determined in some way before the proposed MRay nerf could even be put to vote. It’s just a mess and a completely arbitrary way to avoid dealing with the actual problem.
As an update to the thread, we are in the process of writing up a policy overview internally, which will cover a general overview of Ubers tiering. Following that, the plan for the overall policy writing is to follow the structure used in the tiering policy framework, something generally used by Smogon tiers. Where Ubers will differ is most importantly in our definitions, such as what we define as "broken" or "uncompetitive", and what examples we give.
As to why we are following (and editing) a standardized framework, we believe that trying extremely hard to create something fresh from the ground up to suit Ubers is unnecessary and too easy to create holes with, something our current policy is running into. Ubers doesn't need to reinvent the wheel to create a new policy for its tiering. As we are still a Smogon tier, many of the assumptions and even some definitions used for Smogon tiers line up with how Ubers is treated and played. The discussion to decide on what we will keep, edit, or discard entirely comes with part 2 of this thread, which will come once an Overview is decided on.
Unfortunately I am super short on time this week due to exams so the worst case scenario is that we have a policy overview initial draft ready by this time next week.
As to why we are following (and editing) a standardized framework, we believe that trying extremely hard to create something fresh from the ground up to suit Ubers is unnecessary and too easy to create holes with, something our current policy is running into. Ubers doesn't need to reinvent the wheel to create a new policy for its tiering. As we are still a Smogon tier, many of the assumptions and even some definitions used for Smogon tiers line up with how Ubers is treated and played. The discussion to decide on what we will keep, edit, or discard entirely comes with part 2 of this thread, which will come once an Overview is decided on.
Unfortunately I am super short on time this week due to exams so the worst case scenario is that we have a policy overview initial draft ready by this time next week.
In no way did I suggest that that's the way how Mega Rayquaza should be handled. All I was saying is that the idea to force a specific item on it isn't that far fetched, given how the items it can hold are already limited in the game (no Z-crystals) and how its twins, kyogre and groudon, are subjected to that exact same limitation.
This maybe could work, but it probably isn't worth doing it, it would completely mess up the balance of the tier, and the precedent it would set probably wouldn't be good. There really isn't any way to balance M-Ray without destroying his viability or destroying how the tier works. It would be better to wait until a new gen and the inevitable power creep. I think we need to focus on balancing the pokes stuck in Ubers who suck in it but are too good for OU. Some of these need a suspect. (Deoxys D, anyone?) I think that a new tier in-between OU and Ubers should be a focus for us instead of thinking of some arbitrary way to balance M-Ray.
Forcing MRay to hold a useless item already goes a long way in making it more in line with other ubers, however. It would still be strong, but without a life orb, it's more like a primal groudon with dragon dance, instead of rock polish.
As for a new tier in between ubers and OU... that won't work. Too few pokemon to choose from.
The fact it can hold an item isn't the sole reason it's good. Items make a good pokemon even better. It's good because it has a fantastic move pool, an even better ability, and outrageous stats. It would still be overcentralizing as hell, there would be no reason to not run him as a mega. And you ignore one thing, the two primals only work because they're slow and don't have any recovery. MRay doesn't have that. His defenses are good enough to almost guarantee a D dance. and then he has a very good likelyhood to sweep. And if he's at full health, he can take almost, if not every priority move in the game or retaliate back with E speed. He's too good to be dropped into Ubers, even without a free item slot.And yes, a new bordeline would work. You wouldn't just play with those pokemon, you play with all pokemon below Ubers too. And besides, there isn't any good reason not to do this. More choice is always a good thing. Making a tier where all the unviable in Ubers but too strong for OU pokemon can shine would be a good thing.
To you saying tiers shouldn't operate as banlists, essentially it's what the whole Smogon tier system is based off of; Ubers is OU's banlist as OU is to UU and etc. Ubers just doesn't follow usage based criteria the lower tiers use, which is why it's discussed as an outlier.
Creating an Ubers borderline isn't a good idea for two reasons:
1. It would function as a more broken version of OU, since the viable pool of mons in the tier are small many would draw upon OU and other lower tiers for the bulk of their team. OU banned these mons because people didn't want to play OU with them, so who would play this? It's a completely different metagame from Ubers so we most likely wont play it, and OU folks won't for the reason above.
2. If the tier is unplayable, why have it exist? Borderline tiers exist because something is broken in the tier below it but isn't the tier above by usage. Ubers doesn't operate on usage, therefore it's pointless.
These pokemon being unusable in any meta is a casualty we have to accept because there is no viable solution to this problem without complex bans nerfing them, which is something Smogon wants to avoid. This leads into...
There's a difference in mechanics imposed by the game and mechanics imposed as, essentially, house rules. When we take balance and nerfing into our own hands it becomes incredibly subjective as to what degree things should be done and opens up the gates to other things which many consider ridiculous (should we limit what Primal Groudon puts its EVs into to make a less versatile and more predictable pokemon? etc.)
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dubbleclick and PublicStar, as much as the enthusiasm and discussion are appreciated, lets aim to stay on the topic of the policy overview. Rayquaza discussion is important but this thread is not here to discuss the specifics about one suspect test or one Pokemon, so we would like to keep these major deviations limited.
I agree with dovah. All tiers are essentially banlists of lower tiers. And even if what you are saying is true, that ubers is just a dump of obviously broken pokemon in lower tiers. So you're saying that arceus bug is "trapped" in ubers. So what if it is? It will obviously be way to broken in any other tier, and it's just not viable in the current metagame. Creating a whole new tier just for these "trapped" pokemon would be pointless, as there would be too little pokemon in the tier. Like for example, if game freak made a pokemon with a crappy movepool and a crappy typing, so much so that it wouldn't even be good in PU, you're saying we should still use it? No, that's why we have a category called untiered, which are just pokemon that don't have any competitive use. Arceus bug doesn't fit into any other tier as it's too good there. But it also doesn't fit into ubers as it's too bad there. Arceus-bug is just a pokemon that should just not be used in any tier, it's not a "bad thing", it's just how the dice rolled with how bug is just a generally weaker typing. You're also saying that marshadow is broken. This is, in my opinion, just not true. You're thinking of marshadow's brokenness in terms of ou, but remember, this is ubers. There are many many clear checks to marshadow, such as support arceus forms, yveltal, xerneas, If you're classifying marshadow as "broken", then every single mon in ubers is "broken". But broken mons can check broken mons. Or to put it this way, If everything is special, then nothing is special. Ubers is a solid tier, it just happens to have some unviable pokemon in it, but we can't really do anything about that. that's all I have to say.
There's a reasonable case to be made about the larger power differential between OU and Ubers compared to other adjacent tiers. UUBL mons aren't used often in OU, but they are typically viable there if you're so inclined. Low tier ubers, on the other hand, just can't compete with the higher end things in ubers. Between that and centralisation, Ubers would have to remove fewer Pokemon, or OU would have to add relativly few Pokemon, in order to create a sufficiently different metagame to justify its existence.
I don't have a strong opinion one way or the other on whether such a tier *should* exist, but the direct analogy to BL designations doesn't quite hit the mark IMO.
I never said that Marshadow is broken. He really isn't. He's just annoying and restrictive to teambuilding in the worst way. And like I said earlier, the new tier could work, it also couldn't work. We really don't know until we try. And you contradict yourself. You use pokemon that are bad in PU and the creation of Untiered as an example of why it wouldn't work, which is weird. It's more of an example of what we should try. Off the top of my head, I can think of at least ten unviable Ubers pokemon. The vast majority of these pokemon are bad because they are overshadowed by other, better options. So if we create a tier that takes out those pokemon, than it would let these pokemon have a chance to succede and be viable once again. I'll list some of my targets for this tier to show you that there are more than you think. Aegislash, these Arceas forms (Bug, Dragon, Electric, Flying, Grass, Ice, Psychic, and Fire. That's almost half, and probably could include more) Blaziken, M-Blaziken, Deoxys D and Vanilla form, Dialga, Genesect, Regular Groudon, Mega Kang, lando, Lunala, Mega Metagross, Nagandal, Palkia, Pheromosa, Reashiram, Solgaleo, Zekrom, and normal Zygarde. That's 27 pokemon. That's more than enough for a tier. While you may argue that some of these don't belong, that's beside the point. Half of Ubers being unviable in the tier is a very bad thing. And this really needs to be looked into. It doesn't have to be a new tier, but that's the only good solution that I can think of.
Alright, back on topic... we have an overview draft laid out and we're ready to see how the community perceives it. As a reminder, this overview will sit above our edited version of the standard policy framework. The decisions on how we edit it will come in part 2 of the policy review, which will come once the overview topic is settled. Internally we came up with some basic understandings of the terminology we used in the draft, and will use these as a basis in the next topic, so don't sweat the finer points just yet - that's what part 2 is for. Here's where we currently are:
So, the next course of action is to hear how you guys feel before we take this as policy. Does this overview represent our tier in your eyes going forward? Even just likes on the post is enough if you believe it is fine as the draft is now, but do show your stance on the matter so that we can progress.
Ubers's Tier Policy (Overview) said:
So, the next course of action is to hear how you guys feel before we take this as policy. Does this overview represent our tier in your eyes going forward? Even just likes on the post is enough if you believe it is fine as the draft is now, but do show your stance on the matter so that we can progress.
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