Resource Ubers Old Gens Hub

[Inspirited]

On ADV Tyranitar:
After working with it awhile, I think it should be moved below Regirock. Whether this means Regirock moves up, or Tyranitar moves down doesn't matter to me.

Tyranitar's small advantages over other rocks seem to be more impractical the more I use it and Regirock proven that what it does is useful enough to end up on a sample team.

The choice-less sets Tyranitar sets I have been working with all utilize Tyranitar's superior offenses and special movepool, but that doesn't help it much in getting passed the biggest problem rocks have: Groudon. Tyranitar still needs Spikes support to do remotely enough damage to be useful against Groudon teams. Toxic sets are OK because Tyranitar scares steels but punishing steels and rocks with Kyogre or Groudon is usually a more practical source of damage anyways; Toxic just being a small perk when you know Groudon is coming in. One can even argue that Regirock uses Toxic better because of its massive bulk and Explosion's ability to chunk steels for damage that is almost always permanent. Keep in mind that it still has the option of switching into Groudon or Ho-Oh to scare off steels if exploding is undesirable.

Choice Banded Tyranitar does have a notable advantage over Regirock in that it actually takes less Rock Slide hits to KO Kyogre with heavy investment in HP and gives Latias a larger advantage when it comes in afterwards. In the same vein, its Rock Slide does way more to Snorlax than Regirock's and even chunks steels for useful damage without having to rely on Earthquake whereas Regirock's Rock Slide is rather mediocre against most of these targets. Both of them are at their weakest against Groudon with Regirock having the threat of Explosion and Tyranitar relying on choice locked Toxic or Roar / Earthquake + Spikes to deal meaningful damage to it for its teammates. Something I haven't experimented with on Tyranitar is Body Slam to potentially paralyze Groudon, but that should invite in other large problems all while relying on a 30% roll to really punish Groudon.

The biggest separator between the two is that Tyranitar is always scared of Deoxys-A unless it is confirmed Choice Band and locked into anything but Superpower while Regirock only scared of Deoxys when it is weak. This makes teams with Tyranitar rather uncomfortable against Deoxys even with a Groudon and a Ho-Oh partner. Sub Petaya Deoxys is what Tyranitar teams are scared of most unless the Spikes user is a Deoxys-D. Deoxys-A has to rely on an unreliable Thunder against Tyranitar and its Ho-Oh partner, but it is still in favor of the Deoxys to KO the Ho-Oh. the boon of Tyranitar is that activating Petaya Berry is rather uncomfortable due to sandstorm which will make its attacks weak enough to take on effectively, but this is not always the case. A Regirock in good health will never be afraid of any Deoxys-A, even if it subs down to eat its Petaya Berry.

Regirock is more comfortable against many dangerous Pokemon, not just Deoxys-A, than Tyranitar and doesn't require near as much outside support to function in my experience. Like I said, I really don't care whether Regirock moves up or Tyranitar moves down, but Tyranitar being above Regirock definitely looks wrong to me.

 

[mags]

Tyranitar offensively is kinda meh. Something like fireblast/thunder/rockslide/pursuit can take advantage of its decent at/spa in a mixed set that can bait ogre/groudon but still it's weak. The defensive set actually has an easier time fitting onto teams since stalls really want a pursuit trapper for deo a/gengar. Spinblocking is annoying for stall for obvious reasons and band deo a is an enormous threat for stalls and require a lot of predictions to evade losing a mon if they lack a pursuit trapper. It's bulky and is a nice flying resist which can't be trapped by magneton which is huge. Umbreon has its perks over it while tyranitar has its perks over it. Metagross is the other pursuit trapper that can work fine but it's a lot weaker so less effective vs gengar and it's a steel type so that means you are probably gonna have 2 steels which makes the team weaker to magneton and hooh. Tyranitar also sets sand which is a neutral weather which can be helpful sometimes I guess but then again swift swimmers and chloro users aren't that strong vs stall. I think regirock, ludi, raikoi are all better than some mons in b rank like exeggutor, shed and maybe aerodactyl. Tyranitar seems ok at bottom at b rank or top of b- rank tho

 

[orch]

Goth in bw2 is quite unexplored and I think that it's capable of shaking up the meta. Although, I am mindful of the fact that crit is very strong in bw2 which can skew the success a bit.

Sets that a bw2 goth can run:
Cm/charm/taunt/rest - bw2 equivalent of sm pp stall set
Cm/psyshock/rest/magic coat - deo-s/deo-a antilead
Cm/psyshock/rest/tickle - stall breaker and very slow pp stall set up
Cm/psyshock/rest/heal bell - emergency cleric although I think that this is the weakest set
Cm/psyshock/rest/trick room - sweeping goth.
Cm/psyshock/rest/twave - latios trapping set and denying potential set ups.
Cm/psyshock/rest/thunderbolt or miracle eye or HP fighting - very niche but may will come useful vs darkrai/darkceus counter team.

Potential combos:
Goth + Groudon + sun abuser - sacrifice Groudon against Kyogre to guarantee kyogre death and permanent sun

Goth + rayquaza - steels and lugia are trapped. Genesect locked in non-uturn is potentially trappable.

Goth + Kyogre - all kyogre checks are trapped by goth

Ekiller + goth - only ghosts escape the trap

From what I've played with bw2 goth, it's definitely a viable tech that should be respected. Enjoy the cancer!

 

[Hack]

Goth in bw2 is unbelievably bad and the post is nonsensical theorymon. It doesn't do more than a stray trap and unlike later gens it's not enough to have any significant impact on the game.

your examples show no real knowledge of the bw2 meta. Before I even go into concrete details to prove this we have to establish that hazards will be down. This means Gothitelle will probably not even be able to come into things it's "supposed to trap" anyway.

1. There are no sun abusers worth sacrificing a slot to. And even if your tactic worked you probably won't have a consistent team anyway. 2 slots coulda been used for good mons.
2. Rayquaza isn't checked by steels, neither is goth trapping without die consequences. Crits also ruin Goth when attempting to set up on Pwhip Ferro (more common than Gyro). Gene will never lock u turn vs a Goth team as it won't need to.
3. Dtail Palkia (or any Palkia really for that matter, Rend with a higher crit rate probably even saves scarf lol), CM Latios, Roar Latios or not trapped
4. And ghosts are the best and most used checks to Ekiller, which has many issues of its own to begin with.

It's a wasted slot when you grasp the metagame. And yes, people tried it back in 2012 even

I'm gonna go through some other posts from where I left off in a couple of days hopefully.

 

[orch]

Firstly, I respect your opinions especially about bw2. I do agree with some details but I do think that you might be underestimating goth and not grasping the full picture.

It'a important to understand that goth isn't meant to be always useful but rather to exploit certain counterplays and open up opportunities. Goth does not just "trap odd pokemon" it creates set up opportunities when the pokemon is forced to struggle which is practically identical to wobb which is a well regarded pokemon in bw2 meta. It gives you a useful 4th move which you can use. Ex: twave goth to check psychics. Heal bell goth to btfo status strats.

It's not "nonsensical theorymon" when I have in fact used bw2 goth with success and defeated well regarded bw2 players such as sweep and dice.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen5ubers-164979287
Unfortunately, dice replay is lost with the time. It was a last pokemon sweep with goth after I managed to trap a roar kyogre.

Re: no worthwhile sun abuser argument

I clearly remember steel running a shiftry team with success in UPL. You yourself innovated strong ho-oh teams that rely on sun to check palkia and whatnot. Currently, sun abusers appear weak because kyogre can reset weather more than once. Goth denies this. To think that goth makes no difference for sun abusers is rather crazy lol.

Goth trapping steels do make a difference for ray... You can either run overheat or vcreate to pwn steels. However, overheat can be outplayed with strategical switches. Vcreate drops your speed therefore you are unable to sweep immediately and forced to take other 25% from Sr to reset the stat drops. Goth lets you to set up with Ray and avoids this scenario and opens up a new moveslot for whatever esoretic situation you want.

Dtail palkia indeed is a good counter strategy so I propose sub/cm/rest/charm goth as a set specialized to defeat palkia. Spacial only has 8 pp combined with 5% miss chance. Spacial crit doesn't even kill goth I think lol. Sub can alleviate the crit pressure.

Roar is neutered by taunt. Cm latios is a formidable enemy which fortunately do not account for 100% of latios.

By using goth, you can use specialized ekiller set to defeat ghosts such as power herb shadow force that I believe, you invented. I maintain, goth is meant to open up new opportunities.

I do realize that I'm not an elite bw2 player. However, these posts are meant to inspire further innovations to these metas. I believe that a better bw2 teambuilders such as yourself can find even more potent goth strats.

 

[Fireburn]

I feel like it would be much more productive to use something like Earth Plate Groudon + Wobbuffet if you wanted to use that strategy? A good sun offense team should have no shortage of options to break defensive Kyogre and Wobbuffet can checkmate the offensive variants w/sun while being generally more useful than Gothitelle for dealing with Scarfers/letting things set up. What does Goth even beat consistently in BW2 other than defensive Steels and maybe some special Scarfers? It seems hardly worth the teamslot for trapping Arceus given the much greater likelihood of encountering an offensive Arceus than a defensive one in BW2.

 

[orch]

Support arceus plus stuff you mentioned in addition of identical wobb properties. A struggling pokemon is set up bait. The whole point is that goth literally is better form of wobb. You can pp stall/attack/support/set up with goth. You only can set up with wobb.

e:
i like how you downplay steels, special scarfers, and support arc. any one of these appear in practically any given team lol.

 

[Edgar]

Firstly, I respect your opinions especially about bw2. I do agree with some details but I do think that you might be underestimating goth and not grasping the full picture.

It'a important to understand that goth isn't meant to be always useful but rather to exploit certain counterplays and open up opportunities. Goth does not just "trap odd pokemon" it creates set up opportunities when the pokemon is forced to struggle which is practically identical to wobb which is a well regarded pokemon in bw2 meta. It gives you a useful 4th move which you can use. Ex: twave goth to check psychics. Heal bell goth to btfo status strats.

It's not "nonsensical theorymon" when I have in fact used bw2 goth with success and defeated well regarded bw2 players such as sweep and dice.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen5ubers-164979287
Unfortunately, dice replay is lost with the time. It was a last pokemon sweep with goth after I managed to trap a roar kyogre.

Re: no worthwhile sun abuser argument

I clearly remember steel running a shiftry team with success in UPL. You yourself innovated strong ho-oh teams that rely on sun to check palkia and whatnot. Currently, sun abusers appear weak because kyogre can reset weather more than once. Goth denies this. To think that goth makes no difference for sun abusers is rather crazy lol.

Goth trapping steels do make a difference for ray... You can either run overheat or vcreate to pwn steels. However, overheat can be outplayed with strategical switches. Vcreate drops your speed therefore you are unable to sweep immediately and forced to take other 25% from Sr to reset the stat drops. Goth lets you to set up with Ray and avoids this scenario and opens up a new moveslot for whatever esoretic situation you want.

Dtail palkia indeed is a good counter strategy so I propose sub/cm/rest/charm goth as a set specialized to defeat palkia. Spacial only has 8 pp combined with 5% miss chance. Spacial crit doesn't even kill goth I think lol. Sub can alleviate the crit pressure.

Roar is neutered by taunt. Cm latios is a formidable enemy which fortunately do not account for 100% of latios.

By using goth, you can use specialized ekiller set to defeat ghosts such as power herb shadow force that I believe, you invented. I maintain, goth is meant to open up new opportunities.

I do realize that I'm not an elite bw2 player. However, these posts are meant to inspire further innovations to these metas. I believe that a better bw2 teambuilders such as yourself can find even more potent goth strats.

I have to main issues with Goth, one is that it doesn't beat the most common CM Arceus types, Dark, Ghost or Steel with Roar. The second is that the tier is not as passive as SM, physical scarfers like Zekrom or Genesect are actually usable here for example, which no matter what beat Goth. I actually just came up with a third one, you said Goth helps Rayquaza but how does that even work? The only mon I can think of that Goth traps for Ray is Ice Beam Grass but DD outspeeds and OHKOs with V-Create or maybe even Fire Blast. Not to mention, Goth still gets pwned by Genesect unless you somehow get Trick Room up, which means sacrificing Taunt for it, which means you don't trap things like Stalk Ogre or Lugia.

Like Hack said, I think you would be sacrificing a good spot for a mon that does virtually nothing, and specially in sun that is a no can do. Both Sun balance and Ho-Oh have to be perfectly synergized for them to work and I think Goth is a burden when it comes to doing just that. I guess trapping the mythical Arceus-Rock for Ho-Oh is decent though.

 

[orch]

Dd ray + goth. Gene is forced to ice beam or ray gets second dd.

 

[steelskitty]

imo, orch, you are downplaying how hard it is to fit gothitelle on teams. its weak defensive typing, slow speed, and only average defensive stats mean it just doesn't check a lot. it's difficult to justify anything that doesn't offensively or defensively check things in some way, and gothitelle is no exception. i mean, really, bw is a tier with a lot of broken things, none of which you reliably beat. literally every offensive threat in s and a-rank can run at least something that overcomes you. if you need some examples of this: dialga can be lo, roar, or the mythical specs. roar latias is a meta trend now (finally!), and you won't beat it in a cm war. you also don't have a chance vs specs palkia or any palkia in rain, and running sub goth just to beat the occasional dtail has its own problems, including this calc: 0 Atk Lustrous Orb Palkia Dragon Tail vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Gothitelle: 94-112 (27.3 - 32.5%). i could go on about the more obvious things that beat you, but you get the idea. also problematic is that even if you run a specialized set to beat certain variants of these mons, you're still giving up a moveslot that could be used otherwise and therefore shrinking gothitelle's already small niche. for instance, your proposed cm/sub/rest/charm gothitelle is more passive than lugia, which is a no-go in such an offense-heavy meta. it also doesn't even beat dtail palkia in practice, because they can just spam spacial rend and dtail on your rest.

even if you do trap a fightceus or something, you have to accept the fact that gothitelle is largely useless afterward. this further diminishes its niche. consider how the most common scarfer in bw revenge kills and gets momentum vs you, or how you're too weak to ohko literally anything that isn't psychic-weak or a deoxys-attack even with a +6 psyshock, or how you're utterly worthless vs the very common darkrai and tyranitar.

i wanted to specifically address your sun abusers argument. shiftry already is a headache to justify on sun teams, so much so that my latest draft of the team you mentioned doesn't even run it. trying to fit it and another pokemon with an even smaller niche is impossible for any solid team, given that shiftry is another thing that doesn't really check anything at all. there's two problems with your ho-oh sun argument too. your statement that

Currently, sun abusers appear weak because kyogre can reset weather more than once.

reflects another misunderstanding of bw's meta. the most common kyogre right now is restalk, which ho-oh sun turns into a liability through very frightening wallbreakers such as palkia, latios, or ho-oh. the biggest reason ho-oh sun has fallen out of favor is the rise in popularity of sr excadrill and sr ghostceus, and gothitelle helps with neither of those. i don't see where it even has space on sun. consider the roles a sun team needs to fill:

groudon / ho-oh / arceus form / kyogre check / scarfer (genesect 90% of the time) / hazard control.

what do you have the ability to give up? groudon and ho-oh make the archetype what it is. i shouldn't have to explain why you need hazard control. arceus should be run on every bw team because it's the best pokemon in the tier. the scarfer is necessary because sun needs an auxiliary check to setup sweepers. you can't give up a kyogre check like you did on your team; this is so unreliable vs specs kyogre or even a scarf kyogre with hazards down. as-is, your gameplan vs it is sacrificing groudon and all its utility to come in with a gothitelle. at best this is a 1v1 trade; at worst it's a 2v1 in your opponent's favor because presumably they have something that then can come in and destroy gothitelle. how do you even play if the opponent switches kyogre in on your groudon?

gothitelle + rayquaza also is dubious. it has the same problem as shiftry+gothitelle: it doesn't check anything. calling wobbuffet outclassed by gothitelle is also misguided. wobbuffet has safeguard utility which protects a rayquaza from status like groudon's thunder wave and support arceus' will-o-wisp. if it isn't safeguard then it's destiny bond, which, when coupled with a custap berry, can net wobbuffet two kills vs some teams. encore is a very valuable move, too, and it can be pivotal for creating setup opportunities for rayquaza, which has a VERY hard time getting up an sd in the average game due to weak defenses and a questionable defensive typing (i'm not addressing dd rayquaza because it's not and never has been viable). wobbuffet also isn't completely unable to do direct damage to things like gothitelle is; it has way less of a chance of getting unfortunately haxed or even teched out of existence. even its bsts demonstrate better defenses than gothitelle.

Goth trapping steels do make a difference for ray... You can either run overheat or vcreate to pwn steels. However, overheat can be outplayed with strategical switches. Vcreate drops your speed therefore you are unable to sweep immediately and forced to take other 25% from Sr to reset the stat drops. Goth lets you to set up with Ray and avoids this scenario and opens up a new moveslot for whatever esoretic situation you want.

finally, this also confuses me. one thing i don't get is why you're ignoring the existence of fire blast rayquaza, which is the thing people use when they don't want overheat's spa drop (which isn't a big deal; -2 lo overheat still trucks ferrothorn, offensive excadrill, and skarmory) or v-create drops (which are totally okay; the lowered defenses/speed sounds bad but makes very little difference in real games, and switching haphazardly vs rayquaza to bait drops can so easily backfire horribly). calling rayquaza a sweeper is also incorrect, since it only works as a wallbreaker. i challenge you to find any tournament game from the past few years where an sd or dd rayquaza has swept a team. rayquaza also doesn't have a lot of use for a fourth moveslot over a fire move. eq hits heatran, i guess, but sd variants beat that anyway...tailwind isn't really viable because arceus beats it....sd+dd pretends that dd has a niche....there's not really anything else i've seen before that fits in that slot.

i mean, overall, i'm just not very compelled to run gothitelle in this tier. maybe it's cool theoretically, but there's a reason you don't see it in practice.

 

[steelskitty]

some bw ubers vr changes i'd make:

• accelgor -> unranked to b+, above froslass

it and froslass are probably the most common spikes leads now. i personally prefer it to froslass because of yawn and its faster speed tier. not being darkrai bait is really really nice.

• heatran -> b+ to the top of b-

doesn't do nearly as much as it used to. latios runs surf now so it doesn't reliably check that outside of sun. rayquaza's realized it can beat it so that niche is minimized. kyogres are largely sdef now and they wall it endlessly, making it much harder to break rainstall with. it's still really, really good versus some teams, and not a total shitter like giratina-a, but arceus-dark is definitely better, hence moving it to the top of b-.

• ferrothorn -> mid a to the top of b+

i have hated ferrothorn since forever. what does it even do? oh, it checks latios, sort of, unless it's caught in sun or weather isn't out or it's not gyro ball and they're cm+dm. it checks latias unless it's subcm or hp fire in sun or reflect type + cm (okay, this doesn't exist yet, but it might someday!). it checks steelceus, unless steelceus has substitute. it pivots on genesect unless genesect clicks bug buzz or flamethrower. physdef variants check groudon and ekiller unless they have fire moves. it checks kyogre unless it's specs or they scald burn it... what i'm getting at here is that it's not a consistent check versus nearly everything it's supposed to handle. it's also one of the tier's biggest momentum drainers because of how passive it is. it doesn't fit well on anything besides rain/sandstall or a few outdated rain balances. utter deadweight vs any sun team. total 4mss: i've had teams i've tried it on where i've wanted all of gyro ball / power whip / protect / spikes / stealth rock / leech seed / knock off. it's still a really annoying poke versus some balance teams, sure, but if you manage to actually make a team weak to this thing then idk what to say. it's certainly better than arceus-grass and skarmory, but i think excadrill vastly outclasses it on most modern teams.

• arceus-fighting -> a+ to the top of a-

i remember how i really used to love this thing. it was excellent: autowin vs lots of sand and brutal for some sun, it checked palkia on sun or weatherless or sand teams without having to be grassceus, it wasn't darkrai, ferrothorn, or dialga bait, AND it handled ekiller. what was even cooler was how it could lure latis with thunder wave and/or ho-oh with stone edge. it was (and still might be) the best support arceus. its niche isn't as great as it used to be, though. latis are certainly more common than they used to be. yes, if it can fit thunder wave nowadays (i think toxic is nearly mandatory on lots of teams), it will lure them on the switch or cripple them in an emergency, but it still loses hard to them. due to the rise of rainstall, tentacruel's quite common anymore, and tentacruel loves fightceus to death because it has the capacity to endlessly tentacruel it. sdef kyogre walls fightceus to oblivion, so that sucks too. i've noticed a bit of a rise in the popularity of lo focus blast darkrai, too, which bullies this thing with spikes up. it also loses the palkia-checking niche, because palkia isn't as common as it used to be; besides, specs and scarf variants or any palkia in rain still bother the shit out of it anyway.

i also think it's not viable on most teams. stalls nowadays tend to prefer arceus-ghost to it, because sr ghostceus actually handles magic sun and spinblocks while still doing most of the things fightceus does. it isn't good on offense anymore, now that people understand what it does. if you want an example of it being bad on offense, just look at that abhorrent tyranitar/latios/genesect/giratina-o/latios/arceus-fighting variant of skyless world that's been circulating forever and how it never really seems to win games. offense loves having an arceus that actually functions as a win condition; this is why arceus-steel has grown more common, and why arceus-ghost and ekiller have been good since forever. fightceus cannot for the life of it function as a win condition. i saw an sd variant in a tour match a month ago and it was really awful; i don't think there's a real justification for using that over ekiller, nor a real justification for using a cm set over either steelceus or ghostceus. that leaves one viable set, which is support. now, support fightceus is still solid, but i don't think that that set is great enough to deserve being ranked above darkrai, latios, ekiller, etc. i think it should go to the top of a- because i like it below steelceus, which is the tier's best lati answer and a really good cm arceus right now. look at how steelceus wins this game for march fires, or how it opens the game up here for a scarf kyogre win even though evuelf has three checks to it. compare this with arceus-fighting's performance here; it can almost be said to lose the game for ckw.

• mewtwo -> mid b to b+, below zekrom

mewtwo is underrated. yes, it's somewhat hard to fit on teams, but it's so dominant versus lots of builds. everyone seems to have forgotten how it doesn't have solid checks. it 1 or 2hkos literally everything with psystrike / focus blast / fire blast / ice beam @ lo. it's almost as offensively frightening as darkrai - i say almost because it doesn't have a ghost resist and can't make up for its frailty with dark void. if it does want to make up for its frailty, though, it can be stalltwo, which is still scary. think of how stalltwo handles the average rainstall nowadays with a layer of spikes and rocks: nothing is a good switch-in and it beats at least half of a given rainstall one-on-one. stalltwo's existence, particularly on this team, establishes its niche on more balanced squadrons, too; mewtwo isn't relegated simply to offense.

------------
i might post more later if i feel like it. i also might post on bw ubers' lead metagame at some point; there's no lead guides and i've come to realize that bw ubers' lead meta is perhaps as complex and important as dpp ubers'.

 

[hyw]

some bw ubers vr changes i'd make:

• accelgor -> unranked to b+, above froslass

it and froslass are probably the most common spikes leads now. i personally prefer it to froslass because of yawn and its faster speed tier. not being darkrai bait is really really nice.

• heatran -> b+ to the top of b-

doesn't do nearly as much as it used to. latios runs surf now so it doesn't reliably check that outside of sun. rayquaza's realized it can beat it so that niche is minimized. kyogres are largely sdef now and they wall it endlessly, making it much harder to break rainstall with. it's still really, really good versus some teams, and not a total shitter like giratina-a, but arceus-dark is definitely better, hence moving it to the top of b-.

• ferrothorn -> mid a to the top of b+

i have hated ferrothorn since forever. what does it even do? oh, it checks latios, sort of, unless it's caught in sun or weather isn't out or it's not gyro ball and they're cm+dm. it checks latias unless it's subcm or hp fire in sun or reflect type + cm (okay, this doesn't exist yet, but it might someday!). it checks steelceus, unless steelceus has substitute. it pivots on genesect unless genesect clicks bug buzz or flamethrower. physdef variants check groudon and ekiller unless they have fire moves. it checks kyogre unless it's specs or they scald burn it... what i'm getting at here is that it's not a consistent check versus nearly everything it's supposed to handle. it's also one of the tier's biggest momentum drainers because of how passive it is. it doesn't fit well on anything besides rain/sandstall or a few outdated rain balances. utter deadweight vs any sun team. total 4mss: i've had teams i've tried it on where i've wanted all of gyro ball / power whip / protect / spikes / stealth rock / leech seed / knock off. it's still a really annoying poke versus some balance teams, sure, but if you manage to actually make a team weak to this thing then idk what to say. it's certainly better than arceus-grass and skarmory, but i think excadrill vastly outclasses it on most modern teams.

• arceus-fighting -> a+ to the top of a-

i remember how i really used to love this thing. it was excellent: autowin vs lots of sand and brutal for some sun, it checked palkia on sun or weatherless or sand teams without having to be grassceus, it wasn't darkrai, ferrothorn, or dialga bait, AND it handled ekiller. what was even cooler was how it could lure latis with thunder wave and/or ho-oh with stone edge. it was (and still might be) the best support arceus. its niche isn't as great as it used to be, though. latis are certainly more common than they used to be. yes, if it can fit thunder wave nowadays (i think toxic is nearly mandatory on lots of teams), it will lure them on the switch or cripple them in an emergency, but it still loses hard to them. due to the rise of rainstall, tentacruel's quite common anymore, and tentacruel loves fightceus to death because it has the capacity to endlessly tentacruel it. sdef kyogre walls fightceus to oblivion, so that sucks too. i've noticed a bit of a rise in the popularity of lo focus blast darkrai, too, which bullies this thing with spikes up. it also loses the palkia-checking niche, because palkia isn't as common as it used to be; besides, specs and scarf variants or any palkia in rain still bother the shit out of it anyway.

i also think it's not viable on most teams. stalls nowadays tend to prefer arceus-ghost to it, because sr ghostceus actually handles magic sun and spinblocks while still doing most of the things fightceus does. it isn't good on offense anymore, now that people understand what it does. if you want an example of it being bad on offense, just look at that abhorrent tyranitar/latios/genesect/giratina-o/latios/arceus-fighting variant of skyless world that's been circulating forever and how it never really seems to win games. offense loves having an arceus that actually functions as a win condition; this is why arceus-steel has grown more common, and why arceus-ghost and ekiller have been good since forever. fightceus cannot for the life of it function as a win condition. i saw an sd variant in a tour match a month ago and it was really awful; i don't think there's a real justification for using that over ekiller, nor a real justification for using a cm set over either steelceus or ghostceus. that leaves one viable set, which is support. now, support fightceus is still solid, but i don't think that that set is great enough to deserve being ranked above darkrai, latios, ekiller, etc. i think it should go to the top of a- because i like it below steelceus, which is the tier's best lati answer and a really good cm arceus right now. look at how steelceus wins this game for march fires, or how it opens the game up here for a scarf kyogre win even though evuelf has three checks to it. compare this with arceus-fighting's performance here; it can almost be said to lose the game for ckw.

• mewtwo -> mid b to b+, below zekrom

mewtwo is underrated. yes, it's somewhat hard to fit on teams, but it's so dominant versus lots of builds. everyone seems to have forgotten how it doesn't have solid checks. it 1 or 2hkos literally everything with psystrike / focus blast / fire blast / ice beam @ lo. it's almost as offensively frightening as darkrai - i say almost because it doesn't have a ghost resist and can't make up for its frailty with dark void. if it does want to make up for its frailty, though, it can be stalltwo, which is still scary. think of how stalltwo handles the average rainstall nowadays with a layer of spikes and rocks: nothing is a good switch-in and it beats at least half of a given rainstall one-on-one. stalltwo's existence, particularly on this team, establishes its niche on more balanced squadrons, too; mewtwo isn't relegated simply to offense.

------------
i might post more later if i feel like it. i also might post on bw ubers' lead metagame at some point; there's no lead guides and i've come to realize that bw ubers' lead meta is perhaps as complex and important as dpp ubers'.

Agree strongly w everything here except the last part. Bw2 ubers lead meta is to dpp as chess is to tic tac toe. Im totes down to contribute to such a guide tho :]

 

[ogasian]

Something n00b has been using against me recently in gen 5 is a core of Tentacruel + Specs Kyurem-White. While something like Life Orb Dialga or even latios (that shit is broken, by the way) is probably still overall better as a breaker due to hazards resilience, I think the above core actually has really good synergy (or n00b is just too flames of a player for me to handle). I think Tenta is the best defensive spinner in the tier (in rain, at least) since it pressures ghostceus heavily and finds a lot of turns to get up t-spikes, especially versus more defensive teams. A note about t-spikes: Kyuw is pretty much impossible to switch in on once a layer of t-spikes gets up. Even chansey, which nobody should ever use unless they enjoy playing the game with full hazards on their side, doesn't appreciate an Ice Beam under those conditions. Aside from spin support, Tenta also handles a lot of mons kyuw doesn't appreciate, like genesect (although this is somewhat mitigated by gene spamming u turn), arceus fighting (hard walled), spdef ogre, the odd heatran, and sometimes terrak. Tina-O, even resttalk variants, are actually kind of easy to deal with because a simple double switch into kyuw abuses the fuck out of it. Kyuw still has a lot of issues with offensive teams (giving latios a free turn is never fun, and tenta doesn't help with that) but i still think it's a cool core that can do a lot of damage to balanced teams / fuck up rainstall.

all credits to n00b for the idea

-----
Also, can someone explain to me the love for froslass? I haven't used it too much myself, but it seems like its only niche is beating the Deos, which accelgor also does. It's also darkrai bait, which is never fun for a suicide lead. I get u can run sdef ogre alongside it, and sdef ogre is fine even on some offensive teams, but couldn't u just...not give darkrai a free turn and not have to worry about potential thunder / taunt shenanigans?

edit: Forry also needs to drop from b+. The suicide lead set is cool cuz tspikes and spin and does well versus leads like cloyster, but supportceus, darkrai, or something like genesect u-turn -> offensive threat like specs ogre generally limit it one layer and prevent use of custap. The spdef set doesn't really check anything at all and takes like 30 from resisted moves anyway. Latios bops it with one of hp fire / surf / thunder meaning that forry can't check it any weather, darkrai does a ton with focus blast and can even do stuff with taunt, literally every dragon with the exception of tina-o (which still annoys it with wisp, sub, dtail, mcoat, spinblocking, and general tina-o stuff) blasts through it, supportceus puts it on a timer by wisping it (fightceus just straight up 2hkoes), and it can't even function very well as a u-turn sponge because it gives a free turn to every single powerful wallbreaker in the tier. On the physical side, it doesn't really take on anything either. Defensive don 3hkoes with earthquake (earth plate variants just dick it) and most physical threats like kabu, exca, don, and landorus don't hit its resistances. It does annoy ekiller though, so that's a plus, but skarmory does that better anyway. Forry does have a niche in being a "defensive" mon that isn't hazards bait that can also set up tspikes / spikes and annoy arceus-ghost with toxic / pain split to the point where pulling off a spin is possible (even though practically even a toxic'ed arc ghost will outlast forry due to its sheer bulk and access to recover and the fact that forry doesn't get many chances to spin in general), but these traits aren't enough to keep it in b+ imo with the likes of tenta, arc grass, arc water, and gliscor.

 

[steelskitty]

Something n00b has been using against me recently in gen 5 is a core of Tentacruel + Specs Kyurem-White. While something like Life Orb Dialga or even latios (that shit is broken, by the way) is probably still overall better as a breaker due to hazards resilience, I think the above core actually has really good synergy (or n00b is just too flames of a player for me to handle). I think Tenta is the best defensive spinner in the tier (in rain, at least) since it pressures ghostceus heavily and finds a lot of turns to get up t-spikes, especially versus more defensive teams. A note about t-spikes: Kyuw is pretty much impossible to switch in on once a layer of t-spikes gets up. Even chansey, which nobody should ever use unless they enjoy playing the game with full hazards on their side, doesn't appreciate an Ice Beam under those conditions. Aside from spin support, Tenta also handles a lot of mons kyuw doesn't appreciate, like genesect (although this is somewhat mitigated by gene spamming u turn), arceus fighting (hard walled), spdef ogre, the odd heatran, and sometimes terrak. Tina-O, even resttalk variants, are actually kind of easy to deal with because a simple double switch into kyuw abuses the fuck out of it. Kyuw still has a lot of issues with offensive teams (giving latios a free turn is never fun, and tenta doesn't help with that) but i still think it's a cool core that can do a lot of damage to balanced teams / fuck up rainstall.

all credits to n00b for the idea

i hypothetically like this idea. tentacruel's ability to absorb toxic spikes on the switch-in really helps kyurem-w, which despises passive damage. jirachi feels like an excellent third member to a core like this, taking on latios and support arceus and providing wishes to the easily-worn-down kyurem-w. i'm a bit concerned about this core's execution, though; on what team would one justify it? i think that latios offers similar utility to kyurem-w but also checks more, making it a huge competitor for a team slot. does kyurem-w's biggest niche, stallbreaking, make it viable on more than a team or two?

Also, can someone explain to me the love for froslass? I haven't used it too much myself, but it seems like its only niche is beating the Deos, which accelgor also does. It's also darkrai bait, which is never fun for a suicide lead. I get u can run sdef ogre alongside it, and sdef ogre is fine even on some offensive teams, but couldn't u just...not give darkrai a free turn and not have to worry about potential thunder / taunt shenanigans?

though i prefer accelgor, i don't think it outclasses froslass. i think froslass's biggest niches are its typing and momentum-getting. froslass's ghost typing prevents lead excadrill, tentacruel, cloyster, and forretress from spinning on it. if a user sacrifices their spinner to sleep, they can simply attack turn one and rapid spin turn two on accelgor, removing its spikes; not so with froslass. froslass' typing also offensively threatens xatu, magic coat giratina-o, and the uncommon magic coat arceus-ghost, accelgor's three biggest counters. icy wind also potentially grabs momentum better than accelgor's yawn. though sleep absorbers shrug off yawn, speed drops force nearly anything to switch. the move has dual utility, too, in that it breaks focus sashes while netting momentum; yawn simply forces switches, only breaking sashes if hazards are up.

while i'm here, i think xatu should go from c+ to below espeon in b-. i feel that espeon's yawn, speed tier, and strong special attack place it above xatu. however, xatu's longevity, dual screens, and u-turn make it a capable magic bouncer for some squadrons. i don't understand the rationale behind placing all those pokemon between it and espeon.

 

[Inspirited]

zurvan lead
it's the most memorable one to me because it's hella good. -Abs

After I asked him what I should put here, abs suggested this:

Probably the most unconventional thing I built this season

Zurvan (Giratina-Origin) @ Griseous Orb
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 244 Atk / 36 SpA / 116 SpD / 112 Spe
Lonely Nature
- Shadow Sneak
- Earthquake
- Draco Meteor
- Outrage

Winston (Tyranitar) (M) @ Choice Band
Ability: Sand Stream
EVs: 248 HP / 112 Atk / 148 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Crunch
- Pursuit
- Superpower
- Stone Edge

Burke (Kyogre) @ Lum Berry
Ability: Drizzle
EVs: 232 HP / 240 SpA / 36 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunder Wave
- Surf
- Ice Beam
- Thunder

Jordan (Skarmory) (F) @ Leftovers
Ability: Keen Eye
EVs: 248 HP / 240 SpD / 20 Spe
Impish Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Roost
- Spikes
- Taunt
- Whirlwind

Katherine (Latias) @ Soul Dew
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Draco Meteor
- Thunder
- Surf
- Recover

Lauren (Garchomp) (F) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Sand Veil
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Dragon Claw
- Outrage
- Earthquake

It's pretty clear that Giratina-O leads aren't strong right now, but I put something together with it anyways. A Kyogre with Rest and a different Tyranitar would solve many of its problems, but I personally find it is more fun to use it this way than the others. It will always be behind in the hazard game due to Garchomp carrying Stealth Rock and Skarmory having to juggles its health along with getting up your own hazards. Tyranitar, Giratina-O, and Kyogre should deal enough damage to make up for this, but there are match ups where this isn't the case. The endgame options are simple with the rest of the team dealing damage for Latias or Garchomp in most cases while Tyranitar, Giratina-O, Skarmory, and Latias can usually handle the slower paced teams that are seen nowadays.

Spikes are definitely the biggest problem this particular form of the team has. Spikes and Lucario is very hard to overcome due to the overall structure, Giratina's nature, and Tyranitar's Choice Band. Rayquaza and Spikes is also hard to outpace with Garchomp having to sneak in its Stealth Rock while threatening a revenge kill while somehow keeping itself out of Extremespeed KO range. Sash Lead Rayquaza will always have an opportunity KO something with the ways of breaking its sash early being Giratina's Shadow Sneak or risky play with Garchomp to get Stealth Rock up before the team takes fatal damage. Darkrai and Spikes is the other problem due to Thunder Wave Kyogre being outside the lead spot (put it there if you want something more solid). Other than that, there is no sleep absorber here and you have to rely on Spikes, Sand, and potential Life Orb/Sub damage so Garchomp can revenge kill it.

Overall, its a silly concept team that abs happened to like. I have something less silly I want to put here later though.

 

[shrang]

Something cool to try in BW2:

Togekiss @ Leftovers
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 248 HP / 8 SpA / 252 Spe => probably can use something more optimised but whatever
Nature: Timid
- Thunder Wave
- Nasty Plot
- Air Slash
- Substitute

Togekiss has pretty good special bulk and Paraflinch is annoying af. Normal/Flying might not look like much but it is a really good typing to deal with Ghostceus. With Thunder Wave and Subs Ghostceus has a really hard time getting past Togekiss unless it uses Thunder or something. Even without checking Ghostceus, Togekiss is not bad on its own. Its SpD is pretty good so you should be Thunder Wave a few things anyway.

 

[ogasian]

Well, upl has ended for me and in the spirit of mag's post, here is my personal VR for BW: https://pastebin.com/FeCd1esE

Thoughts on the meta:
I was kinda sad that most of the games were HO, although I guess the players can't really be blamed because it's by far the best and most consistent playstyle, I wonder if spikes dominance + optimization of sets (like we saw with deo s) will relegate balance and stall to friendlies. I guess I just want to spark some discussion and see if anyone is willing to share some cool techs since most of mine failed to pan out (xatu + duggy will be a thing one day!)

 

[MMII]

I have something a bit more radical to propose. What is everybodys’ thoughts on something like this:

Hide

Internal ordering is random

S
Kyogre
Groudon
Genesect
Spikes

A+
Arceus N
Arceus Fight
Arceus Ghost
Ttar
Giratina o
Ho-oh
Darkrai
Latios
Dialga

A
Palkia
Latias
Excadrill
Ray
Ferrothorn

A-
Arceus Ground
Landorus T
Arceus Grass
Arceus Steel

B+
Arceus Dark
Arceus Water
Terrakion
Gliscor
Kabutops
Omastar
Cloyster

C+
Heatran

To me S rank = omnipresent, A = Staple, B = Specialized, and C = niche.

This is really rough, btw, I stopped halfwayish (maybe?) through B+ too. The other mons don’t really matter much. The main things I wanted to convey is that Heatran is trash, I’m on that specs Omastar hype, and that I think S rank was too bloated for what is probably the most diverse of Ubers metas.

As you probably noticed, I stuck the move Spikes in S rank and didn’t rank any of the suicide Spikers. This is because I don’t really know what to do with them. The typical suicide Spikes role has a ton of different flavors (Deo s, Deo a, Frosslass, Accelgor, Forry, etc.). I think this general concept is very much a, if not *the*, defining trait of BW Ubers but who you use for it is a meta trend/team specific. It makes things awkward to rank I find.

In a similar vein, thoughts on putting Arceus (all formes) in S rank while still having the others ranked individually? Kinda same issue where the rankings can’t really convey how (nearly?) every good team uses an Arceus of some type.

As far as actual rankings go; I stuck the two big weather mons in S cause most teams are pretty much picking one of the two and the whole weather wars aspect is pretty characteristic of bw Ubers. Ttar isn’t far behind, honestly I could see it in S rank cause it’s also a top tier anti-lead / sr mon, making it anti meta in two key ways. Genesect is everywhere so I imagine there isn’t much surprise there.

Arceus N I don’t have strong feelings for, it could be S rank, I was mostly just trying to empty that section. Arceus Ghost definitely isn’t though, imo. It has too many problem mons in Ho-Oh and Darkrai. (doubly so because you lose out on Arc fight/lum ekiller) It’s mostly just spin block and a ghetto arc n check, it’s just not as good a wincon as it used to be. Dialga I also don’t find really meta defining or omnipresent. It’s hella good, sure, but it’s kinda just that.

Darkrai is batshit broken, but I think I’m the only person that thinks that right now. Giratina-o is obvs top tier staple, even if sub ekiller is viable. Latios is easily the best Ogre check cause it doesn’t have switch-ins and boasts a ground immune (plus fast!). Ho-oh may be hella team reliant but it rewards in spades, this meta can’t handle bird without SR. Arceus fighting I still think is very good because of the Ekiller, Darkrai, Dialga, and Ferrothorn mus while not really risking much in terms of hard punishes thanks to status + stone edge.

In A rank, I stuck the next best Ogre punishes. Excadrill is in there too because it’s the best reason to use sand and just a good mon even if u don’t since it’s reliable sr, gives ur team a strong eq, and can actually spin sometimes. Ray’s ability to break teams speaks for itself and I find air lock to be important as there are a number of teams that are going to be naturally weak to the swift swimmers. Ferrothorn is kinda mu dependent but spikes is a broken move and even in it’s worst mus, it’s at least a punish to their ogre check.

A- i just stuck the last two ground types that can reasonably expect to ohko Dialga. This is pretty much the extent of that mon’s impact on this meta, and I’m not even sure if othet folks value this role as much as I do. Arc ground, grass, and steel all have their big hit mus while checking some relevant threats. Honestly, though, I find them to just be weaker overall than the former three which cover a lot more exclusive set of threats and are just more consistent with their value regardless of team mus.

I don’t really want to talk about b+ much, it’s more illustrative than anything else. I want to reinforce how much I like Omastar tho. Specs Hydro Pump is hard to switch into fir just about every team (2hkos latis, lol) and you never have to guess, just not miss. Kabutops might have the speed and spin utility but having Donner switch into you easily super sucks for a swift swimmer. Even in non-sun mus, you often find yourself in situations where u have to guess, especually when you want to spin. As a spinner, LO recoil super sucks since it stacks with hazards passive. Trading off your hazards for a free switch into a mon that keeps ur pressure going is often a perfectly good line, especially since they basically just sacked their ekiller check bringing it in to spin.

Heatran just loses to the things it’s supposed to check.

As I’ve alluded to, this is mostly a rough suggestion on the sort of direction / structure that I think the bw VR should take. I wouldn’t fret too, too much over the details but I would still like to hear your feedback over them.

 

[shrang]

Ewww Ekiller in A+ puke

 

[shrang]

Alright maggots listen up. Seeing as Hack has left, Nayrz has kindly given control of this thread to me. As you might know, I actually don't have that much free time in total, but this place has been left in a relatively good state anyways so I don't need to do very much.

Feel free to talk about whatever re: old gens. If you have anything interesting just post it in here and I'll try and put it into our archives.

Things that will be in progress now:
- I'm going to be slowly importing our old ADV mini-analyses into the viability rankings. This means the viability rankings section of ADV will look a lot more chunky, but in return, we can easily see common sets and explanations of threats in the post so it's good IMO.
- DPP mini-analyses are also welcome. I'm not going to bother writing them at the moment, but if anyone wants to submit anything, please feel free to post them here and I'll paste it into the VR section just like what I'm doing with the ADV ones
- Any fun and interesting sets are welcome - I'll also just dump them into the OPs
- Feel free to post any interesting replays of tour matches -> See down below for official Ubers tour replays
- I'm considering adding a section under the VRs and sample teams for "Discussion points" - they will cover what are the most current talking points about the old gens at the moment
- Ongoing discussions regarding VRs - I'm not a fan of what came out of the BW2 VR, I personally think some the changes Hack made are wrong but I'll post what I feel the changes should be. Regardless, these discussions are ongoing and dynamic and changes will happen as new things slowly happen

Future plans:
- When UPL comes around I'll add a section in every OP dedicated to storing the replays +/- interesting commentaries
- Let me know about official tours like Snake and Open - I'm not going to follow heavily on these but any replay that comes in is welcome
- ?Short analyses regarding certain playstyles etc and different interesting concepts - these obviously depend on the effort people are willing to put in

It's kind of bad that I'm taking this over when I hardly play any more anyway but seeing as no-one else is willing to put up their hand I'll take this over for the next short time before I finally decide to give up playing this game and/or I get too busy that there's absolutely no way. As of next year I probably still have a bit more time on my hands but once I start being a medical registrar there will be absolutely no fucking way and I'd just have to hand this over to someone else.

 

[iry]

Here's my personal vr for adv(only relevant mons), mons within the ranks are unordered. i'll be happy to elaborate if someone's interested.

S
Latios
Latias
Kyogre
Groudon
A+
Deoxys-a
Deoxys-d
Mewtwo
Blissey
Snorlax
Forre
A
Magnet
Ho-oh
Metagross
Lugia
A-
Jirachi
Skarmory(could be b+)
B+
Qwilfish
Dugtrio
Heracross
Gengar
Regirock(could be B)
B
Slaking
Omastar
Kabutops
Aerodactyl
Umbreon
Steelix
Registeel
B-
Wobb
Mew
Ttar
Deoxys-S
Shiftry
Egg
Rayquaza
C
Flygon
Zapdos
Shedinja
Raikou(eh)
Ludicolo

 

[Cynara]

I disagree with Raikou being ranked at all, It's awful in ADV OU and it's even worse here and it gets no valid representation. Ludicolo should be higher in my opinion, its a good niche pick for fatter builds that need the kyogre check, I guess there's blissey too but meh. You undervalue Deo-s too I feel. Sure it falls short of Deo-D in ADV, but quick spikes are amazing especially for offense and it's able to do some other things.

Honestly, latis, don, ogre, Deo-a are the faces of the meta (S Rank). Deo-a is arguably the most offensively threatening pokemon in the whole metagame, Its absurd offenses and speed make it very difficult to get past, Sub Peterya berry being a bit more popular right now, but Spell Tag / CB are still insane as ever.

 

[p2]

im a complete rust bucket when it comes to adv, haven't touched it since last pentathlon when i got FUCKIN BANNED in finals.....

but i still think deo a is one of the kings of the tier, not much comes close to it in terms of power and its very very flexible, can run near enough any damn move it wants and any missteps punish you extremely hard, there isnt anything that matches how terrifying it subbing on a scout can be because if you've brought in don for example you're faced with a tough decision (break the sub and risk a massive hit, try to scout to something safer like ho-oh and then getting it slammed by coverage, or trying to absorb a spc hit with blissey and getting blown apart by superpower) it's so damn dangerous. to top it off, its got priority too. spikes seems appealing but if you're not attacking or subbing with deo, youre wasting it.

not sure what my ideal vr for adv would be, id say along the lines of:
s - ogre, deo-a, latios latias, don ( in order)
a+ - m2, bliss, lax

i think after those 8 there's a very clear drop in viability, not to call anything lower than a+ bad because there's a lot of very valuable picks there that can easily fit on a team, but the versatility and overall effectiveness of the top 8 is just a very clear cut higher than everything else. i guess a rank would be like forre skarm maggy hooh deo d not in any particular order. then rank below that would probably be like rachi/ray/gross/lugia then the 1 below that id probably think omastar/regis/lix/gar/slaking/aero/mew(?) lower tier stuff was definitely not my specialty though and given the metas probably shifted take my opinions w/ a grain of salt

i gotta start playing this shit again though, had a lot of fun dabbling in older gen ubers and adv is a particular favourite of mine, despite the tightly packed s/a+ ranks, there's a lot of room for creativity, it's just not like slapping something on your team and calling it a day, not at all.

 

[iry]

idc about raikou but i wouldn't unrank it because cm roar is ok.
you could arguably put ludi higher, but not much higher than b- , it's a do nothing mon that checks weak special attackers and even after being a specialized grass/water loses to sub ogre which is just atrocious, specially since a lot of teams end up with this thing in place of lati. also, it can't come in consistently on lati thunders which is extremely meh.
idk why deos would be ranked above where it is. i don't really see the need for quick spikes in adv. it's been around on the age old deos/ogre/lati/agiligross/m2/lax team but i would honestly have a real mon on offense as this thing is never going to keep the spikes up in the long run like deod etc. it always felt like a desperate attempt to get up spikes on offense to get some initial pressure going. back in the day no one liked this mon pretty much for the same reason and i don't see what's drastically changed now. i think i have like 2 offenses that actually use deos optimally so i guess i can't say i disagree with the nom completely but it's really, really hard to justify on most teams.
deoa ive always felt is overrated by the vast majority of the community(won't even go into the fact that it has 0 defensive utility unlike everything in S, which is actually important because it's adv) and it wasn't s back in the day and it sure isn't s now (its absofuckinlutely a+ tho). pursuit basically means it's a goner and if you try to preserve for late game vs a good player they can usually tell it's a deoa in the back. sub petaya is really good but you have to remember that its checked by common mons like deod(read countered) and latias. cb is more susceptible to pursuit and you'll need to predict vs balance/fat. stag is pretty good and ive used stag deo vs most players who don't play the gen consistently and this mon just solos such players with semi-decent piloting, and honestly it's pretty good vs seasoned players too but it has more 'bad matchups' than a well played cb(you could run rock slide but then you lose thunder which ive never believed is worth it). top of a+? absolutely. s? nah

 

[Melle2402]

Some of my personal thoughts for the vr:
The strong 4 are obv S rank. Right after them i would place Blissey, Snorlax and Deo-A (in this order) into A+. Bliss and lax are the best checks for a lot of special attackers and lax has always the potential to sweep your opponent and turn around a whole match.
Deo-A belong right behind them. It can run a lot of sets and well played it gets a few kills every game.
Deo-D cant be higher than A- imo. Its access to spikes, knock off and recovery is great, but it is way too passive and cant do much after it got toxiced for example. Also you can get free set ups against it with any mon that has Substitute. Its still great to get Spikes and Knock everthing, but A+ is way too high.
Ludicolo is also a nice mon in adv, but without tspikes, like in gen 4, it cant do that much. Ludi needs the right suppor and a good matchup. B or B- is okay.
The last mon i wanna talk about is Rayquaza. B- seems way to low imo. It has a lot of different sets (for example dd, cb, mixed attacker) and hits like a truck. Paired with a magneton for example there are no checks for banded Ray. And his speed is also great. A- or B+ imo