Togekiss (QC 1/3) [Hello...?]

[Level 51]

4 SETS NEW RECORD LGI
curses foiled again

look at me i'm being helpful

[Overview]

• Great support movepool, even verging on 4MSS. UNIQUELY FOLLOW ME + TW!!
• Most specially bulky of all the FM/RP users I think
• Coolio bulk, not to mention its excellent 120 SpA
• Immunity to EQ
• Versatile af
• but weak to ice/rock/electric; in particular blizzard/rock slide/discharge

[SET]
name: Tailwind Support
move 1: Tailwind
move 2: Air Slash
move 3: Follow Me
move 4: Protect / Helping Hand
item: Sitrus Berry / Leftovers
nature: Calm
evs: 248 HP / 92 Spe / 168 SpD

[SET COMMENTS]

• Bulk is best
  
• Tailwind. Duh.
  
• Air Slash helps deal with slower and bulkier threats like Cresselia while your sweepers kill other stuff. Flinches are also incredibly good.
  
• Follow Me if you're feeling masochistic
• Protect = Protect
• Helping Hand is cool to help people and be all altruistic and get rid of opposing walls/tanks etc
  
• Sitrus Berry is usually better since Sand/Hail numbers in HP will minimise Lefties healing ;-;. Plus you can take double attacks sometimes!

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

• Speed EVs let it outspeed Cresselia, min speed Rotom-W, and some faster Hitmontop variants. 248 HP gives it odd Hp number to take less damage from Hail and Sandstorm. Rest into SpD to improve its already stellar SpD.
  
• More speed (176 EVs) can be used to outspeed max speed neutral 70's (top and colo, specifically; breloom too but most go Jolly)
• 16 Def will let it survive CB / Helping Hand Rock Slide from TTar
  
• Usually aids teammates instead of having teammates aid it; works well with powerful teammates with middling speeds like Kyurem-B, Hydreigon, Breloom, Metagross, etc. Mold Breaker Excadrill REALLY likes Follow Me + Togekiss' Ground-immunity. Hitmontop is cool for Intimidate to cover its weaker Def, and Wide Guard for Blizz/Rock Slide/Discharge et al. Heracross and Mamoswine have cool synergy and also appreciate the support.
• Lando-T too but Blizzard ruins :(

[SET]
name: Bulky Paralyser
move 1: Thunder Wave
move 2: Air Slash
move 3: Follow Me
move 4: Protect / Helping Hand
item: Sitrus Berry / Leftovers
nature: Calm
evs: 248 HP / 124 Def / 136 SpD

[SET COMMENTS]

• Works wonders for Bulky Offense teams (because Thunder Wave everything).
• Thunder Wave paralyses stuff so your team can wreck
• Air Slash works wonders after you've Thunder Waved a ton of shit
• Follow Me because that's why you're using Togekiss over Thundurus 9.9
• Protect because Protect.......
• Helping Hand for helping stuff to wreck after opposing stuff is paralysed

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

• EVs survive Rock Gem Terrak Rock Slide, Dragon Gem Latios Draco Meteor, Thundurus Thunderbolt, Specs Rotom-W Thunderbolt. Need I say more?? HP is odd number as described above.
  
• Sitrus Berry improves longevity bla bla bla; Leftovers arent too good as before.
• Great with bulky offense users who benefit from opponents getting paralysed so they can go firstish. Metagross, Landorus-T, Heatran, and Kyurem-B come to mind. Hitmontop is cool for Intimidate to cover its weaker Def, and Wide Guard for Blizz/Rock Slide/Discharge et al.

[SET]
name: Offensive Tailwind
move 1: Tailwind
move 2: Air Slash
move 3: Heat Wave / Aura Sphere
move 4: Protect / Helping Hand
item: Sitrus Berry / Flying Gem
nature: Modest
evs: 208 HP / 252 SpA / 48 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]

• Allows Togekiss to do some damage of its own with that 120 SpA
• Tailwind to get its Speed up
  
• Air Slash as a good STAB and for flinchies
• Heat Wave for that 29.16% chance of burning something
• Aura Sphere for solid damage output
• Protect to sit out Trick Room
• Helping Hand for boosting allies in case Togekiss' coverage doesn't work

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

• 208 HP is an odd HP number, 252 SpA maximizes damage, 48 Speed outspeeds 4 Spe base 85s. Modest lets Togekiss hit stuff.
  
• Sitrus Berry lets Togekiss take more hits, Flying Gem can get some cool KOs off
  
• Good teammates would have good coverage in tandem with Togekiss so they can take out the bulkier stuff like Cress. Tyranitar is a good choice and benefits from Tailwind; same with Chandelure etc.
• Mamoswine and Heracross are also cool; Mamoswine has cool coverage and likes flinches, Heracross needs HH support to OHKO Cress. Hitmontop is cool for Intimidate to cover its weaker Def, and Wide Guard for Blizz/Rock Slide/Discharge et al. /brokenrecord
  
• Fire Blast / Flamethrower > Heat Wave for more damage!!

[Other Options]

• ExtremeSpeed can catch Pokemon off guard but is probably shit & a waste of a moveslot
• After You is cool if you're really desperate to speed up your team a bit
• Roost to heal yourself just in case
• Body Slam ignores Taunt
  
• Psycho Shift (restalk flame orb is super fun btw) (and really annoying if you don't get Psycho Shift on Sleep Talk) (HOLY SHIT REST/SLEEP TALK/PSYCHO SHIFT I AM DOING THIS)
  
• Dual screens
• Sunny day / Rain Dance
  
• Safeguard
• Encore
• Magic Coat
• Hyper Voice is your strongest spread move lol
• Tri Attack for status fun

[Checks and Counters]

• Blizzspam / Discharge spam
• Prankster/Fast Taunt
• Rock Slide (I'm looking at YOU, Tyranitar.)
• Electric Pokemon
  
• Rain-boosted Swift Swim users (especially Kabutops)
• Sand Rush sweeper(s) (oh wait there's only one good one)
  
• Heavy spread damage
  
• Steel-types if you don't use Heat Wave or Aura Sphere.
• TRICK ROOM AUGH
• ??? can anyone else think of stuff

 

[Nollan]

Too many sets... and they all have Tailwind o_O

I would break it down into "Standard"/"Bulky Support" and "Offensive Tailwind", everything else is basically just Bulky Support with different spreads, you can specify them in AC for it. I'm busy atm so I can say much more, but yeah, just merge those three into one set.

 

[tofucocoa]

tailwind really shouldn't be in the same set as thunder wave imo. it should probably be moved down to oo and have softboiled/roost in twave's place in the analyses. mention breloom and excadrill in partner sections. so really, i agree with nollan when i say that there really should be just two sets; an offensive follow me and a defensive follow me. choice scarf is also a possibility but to be honest its rather lackluster (i should know i tried it for a while before i realized this) so its probably worth a heavy oo mention. lum berry should be in ac or a main slash over leftovers on the defensive set so you can draw in stats and then be cured of it. ev benchmarks for the defensive set should be like enough to outspeed min speed cress/rotom-w and the rest in defenses, or a little in spa if you want to 2hko something like aboma that it already doesn't do (unlikely)

also in checks/counters how are ground types a problem? if its rock moves, be specific. also be specific about how badly thundurus fucks it over. mention how trick room screws its speed control over.

little stuff for oo include psycho shift (restalk flame orb is super fun btw), dual screens, sunny day, safeguard, wish, encore, magic coat, heal bell and incinerate. also in general we probably need to mention flamethrower/fire blast wherever we have a mon with heat wave.

 

[Laga]

Speedy Tailwind Support thing; move it to AC of the first set.

The second set should not have Tailwind mentioned at all; it's named Bulky Paralyser
Follow Me > Helping Hand / Tailwind and then slash Protect / Helping Hand; move those slashed moves to move 4 and Follow Me to move 3. If not for Follow Me, why the hell wouldn't you just use Bulky Thundurus?

Now that we have the actual sets tidied up (¬_¬),
we could move on to actually QCing the points you have made.

· In Overview, emphasize more on it's access to Follow Me + Tailwind, as it is the only pokemon with access to that combination, and is also the only combination of support moves that it has unique to itself.

· Talk about Initimidate Pokemon in Team Options for the Bulky sets; will compensate for its much higher special bulk, and mostly Hitmontop will help a lot (surprise), since Wide Guard can block incoming Rock Slides and Blizzards.

· Generally have Follow Me emphasized as more often than not the best option if it's slashed, and try not even slashing it, since Togekiss is a beast due to its access to Follow Me (among best support moves in the metagame), and would be kind of meh without it.

· Don't mention Roost as bad in OO, as it can actually work on the bulky sets (mostly para spreader).

· Add Steel-types to the Checks and Counters section, and mention them as a thorn in the side (whichever version of "a problem" you want) to sets lacking Aura Sphere or Heat Wave.

· Remove Thunder Wave from the flippin Tailwind set; when will you ever need to be 8 times faster than your opponent?

Yeah that's it for now, implement that changes and I'll see if it looks better.

Edit: Holy shit i'm already at 300 posts :o I swear I was at like 220 4 days ago O_o

 

[Level 51]

edited in all the changes besides lucariojr's EV requests because I need more time for those. I'd love more comments :]

 

[Nollan]

I used Togekiss on HailRoom once.... but I don't use it much. meh I'll check it anyway.

Overview

• Comment on Togekiss's flaws as well, most notably the Rock, Electric and Ice weaknesses; Rock Slide and Blizzard weakness in particular hurts it.

"Tailwind Support" Set

• Sitrus Berry > Leftovers on the slash imo, because A) Follow Me is going to be drawing 2 attacks to you, so obviously Leftovers isn't going to pay off as much unless the opponent is using really weak moves, and B) hitting a Sand/Hail number to take minimal damage from Sand/Hail damage also means minimizing healing from Lefties, making Sitrus a preferable option
• I'd drop Helping Hand from slot 3, Follow Me is an amazing asset for Togekiss, dropping it for Helping Hand, which works perfectly fine in slot 4, seems a bit weird

"Tailwind Support" Set Comments

• The nifty flinch rate on Air Slash should be mentioned here, as at +2 Togekiss will outspeed nearly everything, and 60% to flinch with that sort of speed can be a nice asset (I never get flinches with it though x_x)

"Tailwind Support" Additional Comments

• 16 Defense EVs allows this set to always survive a Helping Hand (or Choice Band) boosted Rock Slide off of 252+ Tyranitar. While not exactly a common situation, it doesn't take much investment and I personally like the small bonus it provides. Just thought it was worth a mention.
• I'd specify "Mold Breaker Excadrill" here, as Sand Rush Excadrill work fine with things like Cresselia and Rotom-W. Mold Breaker Excadrill also enjoys the Tailwind support a lot more.
• Both Heracross and Mamoswine will make for great teammates here, so mention them.

"Bulky Paralyzer" Set

• I'm in favor of a spread of 248 HP / 124 Def / 136 SpD and a Calm nature, because most of the physical calcs the extra Defense EVs cover are really rare, and 136 SpD w/ Calm is needed to live Specs TBolt from Rotom-W, which is a common set. You still live rare attacks like a Rock Gem Rock Slide off of Tyranitar anyways (all you really lose in terms of physical bulk from what you listed is V-create from CB Victini.... which isn't exactly common, and it technicially still has only a 43.75% chance to OHKO :p).

"Bulky Paralyzer" Set Comments

• ...Nothing to add here. Good job.

"Bulky Paralyzer" Additional Comments

• -Refer to above comment-

"Offensive Tailwind" Set

• I know little to nothing about offensive Togekiss.... but I guess Flying Gem gets some notable KOs (I guess you would probably deathflinch them anyway, though), such as:
  • 252+ SpA Flying Gem Togekiss Air Slash vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Hitmontop: 350-414 (115.13 - 136.18%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    
  • 252+ SpA Flying Gem Togekiss Air Slash vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Volcarona: 362-428 (116.39 - 137.62%) -- guaranteed OHKO

"Offensive Tailwind" Set Comments

• ...Nothing to add here. Good job.

"Offensive Tailwind" Additional Comments

• Mamoswine as a good teammate..... NOW. (Seriously though it has great offensive synergy with Togekiss)
• Heracross works really well here too, given it can both outspeed and demolish Cresselia w/ Megahorn; it will need either a Helping Hand boost or a Bug Gem/Choice Band for the OHKO though

Other Options

• A lot of stuff to drop from the list :s
• Choice Scarf is lolno, you can get faster via Tailwind, and Choice items completely ruin Togekiss's support movepool since it can no longer use it (I don't care whether it gets Trick or not, you can do better)
• Hidden Power, Psychic, Hyper Voice, and Tri Attack are pretty meh too, they don't provide any notable coverage for the offensive sets and are a waste of movespace on the defensive sets
• Also drop Wish & Incinerate for obv reasons
• Nothing really to add on, I'd say After You cuz its cool, but Togekiss isn't very fast

Checks & Counters

• Togekiss HATES Trick Room (especially Trick Room Cresselia, who it does nothing to apart from numerous flinches). Every set it runs revolves around speed control that Trick Room will completely counteract. 'Nuff said.
• Electric-types, like Thundurus, Zapdos, Rotom-W and Rotom-H can be complete trolls to the flying.... whatever it is
• Excadrill is annoying in similar ways to Swift Swim sweepers

-EDIT-
Whoops almost forgot, this is coming along nicely, so:

QC APPROVAL 1/3

 

[noobcubed]

[Overview]
FM/RP + Tailwind isn't unique actually: Volcarona gets both, though it doesn't ever use them on the same set.
Speaking of which, comparison to other FM/RP users (Jirachi, Amoonguss, Volcarona) and other Tailwind users (Tornadus, Latias, Suciune) is probably helpful in the intro.
Serene Grace is also definitely worth a mention here - it's why every Togekiss ever runs Air Slash.

[Set 1 AC]
Another really important neutral base 70 is Breloom. However, many run Jolly.
Landorus-T is a great partner, basically combining why Excadrill and Hitmontop are good with Togekiss.

[Set 2 AC]
Body Slam is maybe worth mentioning as an alternative to Thunder Wave. The ability to ignore Taunt, hit Ground types and do some damage can feasibly outweigh the fact that you're only getting paralysis 60% of the time.

[Set 3]
Spread moves are always nice but IMO Aura Sphere should be the primary slash for its superior coverage. In particular, Aura Sphere is really nice to hurt Tyranitar, Heatran and Rhyperior, who resist the other moves.
Also, since this is an offensive set, Sitrus Berry seems like the wrong item. Instead, Flying Gem can OHKO 252/0 Hitmontop, for example.

[OO]
Needs an overhaul. IMO your realistic options are these:

Support moves:
Roost
Dual screens
Safeguard
Encore
Rain Dance/Sunny Day
Nasty Plot? (probably not)

Attacking moves:
Hyper Voice is your strongest spread move
Tri Attack is pushing it - but you do get a 40% chance to inflict status.
Water Pulse (lol no just kidding)

[C&C]

Pranksters should be the first mention as they shut down Tailwind, Thunder Wave and Follow Me, which are the reasons you are using Togekiss.
Trick Room users turn Togekiss's speed control on its head. However Togekiss can potentially get past this with flinch hax.
Mention particular users of the spread moves which trouble Togekiss (Abomasnow, Terrakion etc).
Excadrill is notable for outrunning Togekiss even once it has set up Tailwind, as long as it has sand. Rock Slide can turn Togekiss's flinch hax against it.

General comments: Make a big deal of Follow Me, it's the chief reason your using it over other Tailwind/Thunder Wave users with more offensive presence or bulk.
I'm not convinced about the offensive set being onsite tbh- Togekiss just doesn't have powerful enough STABs for me.

 

[Level 51]

Finally got everything / most of the stuff in. Key deviations from the suggestions:
Body Slam is in OO as opposed to AC
Nasty Plot isn't mentioned
Heal Bell is also removed
Excadrill isn't highlighted since mainly all the Swift Swimmers/Sand Rushers outspeed Togekiss under weather even when facing Tailwind anyway lel

 

[mimi]

After looking over this skeleton I have yet a few minor nit picks,

set one you have lefties slashed behind stirus, but not on set two. why?
you didn't mention helping hand in the 1st set acs
Though you mention Hitmontop a few times, no mention of wide guard, which helps against rock slides, surfs, discharges ect.

That's all I can come up with, other then that very good work 51,
(QC APPROVED 2/3)

 

[Audiosurfer]

Level 51 are you still workin on this?

 

[Audiosurfer]

ok so level 51 hasnt worked on it in a while, if anyone else wants to take it they can