The "tier" of "NU" Items, and a discussion on how can they be used competitively.

Zoom Lens could be used by something like Sableye(basically Stall only use... what a useless ability) to boost, say, Will-o-Wisp accuracy, or even DynamicPunch accuracy...
I once thought about Metronome Tinted Lens Yanmega spamming Bug Buzz... dunno if it could work.

Sticky Barb could be useful on Clefable.
 
I hate to be the one who says " i don't know if this will work".

To be honest i have never used metronome , i just don't see the point. Since when you spam use an attack , it's probably the only attack that is so crucial on that pokemon that it will be used over and over (probably a stab attack with high base damage or in Jirashi's case there is aslo flinch involved.

Wouldn't a type boosting item be better? (iron plate Scizor which i use.) or just another item that boosts the power of attacks. But type boosting and to a lesser degree choice band and all other (not Never used) items are the prime competition of metronome , since they appear to be doing it's job better.

I am not sure if there are any cases where metronome is the best item for the job.
 
From the item anaylsis of metronome, it says that it's power increases by 10% on each use of the move.
Take Jirachi's iron head with Iron Plate, it gets the 10% boost instantly.
Jirachi with metronome could work, as in its power increases every use, and with 60% flinch rate, that could easily go higher than an iron plate.
 
ChouToshio said:
Yeah, but it's all about Opportunity Cost. If you're using Wide Lens, you don't get to use LO, Choice Band, etc. Keeping in mind that even a 100% accurate Fire Blast or Hydro Pump would not be as powerful as an LO boosted Flamethrower/Surf, you have to be getting a huge accuracy boost with a really good move to make giving up your item slot worthwhile.
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There's opportunity cost to using these items, but there's no ACTUAL cost. Whereas LO gives the recoil, and choice items lock you into a move.

Besides,
LO Flamethrower, Surf, Fire Blast, Thunderbolt: 95 x 1.3 = 123.5 EBP (Effective Base Power), 100% acc
Wide Lens Fire Blast: 120 EBP, 93.5% acc
Wide Lens Hydro Pump: 120 EBP, 88% acc
Wide Lens Blizzard, Thunder: 120 EBP, 77% acc

The power difference is insignificant. Wide Lensed moves still suffer from inaccuracy though. If you're using fire and water, Wide Lens is viable, but if you're using thunder or ice (more common), LO is probably the best.
Of course, you give up the most powerful option but least accurate option, LOed versions of the more powerful attacks, which hit for 156 EBP.
If it's on a slow tank, you can use Zoom Lens, which brings the accuracies much higher, and means it really should be the choice over LOed lower power moves. Even then, you have to consider alternatives like Leftovers, Expert Belt, whatever.
 
Azule said:
From the item anaylsis of metronome, it says that it's power increases by 10% on each use of the move.
Take Jirachi's iron head with Iron Plate, it gets the 10% boost instantly.
Jirachi with metronome could work, as in its power increases every use, and with 60% flinch rate, that could easily go higher than an iron plate.
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iron plate gives a 20% increase from the beginning. Not a 10% boost. http://www.smogon.com/dp/items/iron_plate

And if you hit 4 times with iron plate you have to account for that 20% for all 4 hits.

So iron plate will hit +20% , +20% , +20% , 20%

Now if i am not incorrect metronome is like this :

+0% , +10% ,+20% ,+30%... And you must keep using the same move.



Even if Metronome succeeds at providing a +30% move at some point , you would have dealt less damage than with an iron plate and the less time you use the move the higher the chance that you will flinch all the times your opponent until the KO , making it highly probable that your Jirashi will be countered if you have to use the move more times to get the KO.

I imagine you can make it work if the opponent is paralyzed probably or if you are lucky but iron plate seems better. But I condense the point that it can probably work if you understand the differences between iron plate and metronome and you plan to take advantage of it's boost. I have seen many strange Jirashi's sets. Maybe one with boosted defensive stats hiding behind a substitute using the same move all over again , will succeed to sweep a whole team. Who knows. Usually the other item is better but yeah you are right maybe Metronome can work if you think about the differences between the items and work appropriately. (So you plan that the move will succeed and hit for more than just 4 turns but go on for 5-7 at least. ) Else iron plate seems better.
 
QuickClaw could be used for those slower leads or walls....If you are lucky and there are no magnezones it could work well on Skarmory
 
The metronome was mentioned in Togekiss. However, metronome just isn't worth the item slot really. As shown, it does less extra damage than Iron Plate (for Jirachi)

Quickclaw would be useful on even slow sweepers like PZ. However, it does have a 10% chance of activating and is negated by priority. So I question the use of Quickclaw in such a case.
 
My favorite Magmortar set is,

Magmortar@Wide Lens
Timid 252/252/4
Fire Blast
Focus Blast
Thunderbolt
Substitute

Magmortar has no alternative to Focus Blast's coverage, he can't afford to miss, and a 93% accurate Fire Blast helps to justify the loss of Life Orb. I would personally only consider Wide Lens/Zoom Lens if the pokemon was using at least two inaccurate moves, and ideally if one was Focus Blast (which is a widely available move with unusual special coverage). Substitute up against an opponent who cannot afford to stay in and take advantage of your combination of coverage, power, and accuracy. You have 349 sp.atk, a substitute, a SE move against Grass/Bug/Steel/Ice/Water/Flying/Normal/Dark/Rock and if you aren't faster you'll likely either OHKO or cripple them, if you are faster a 2HKO is likely.

My browser (Playstation 3) has a severe message size limit, so I'll need to continue into further posts.
 
I can see rarely utilized power in Fling. Some of Fling's effects when your flung item hits your target (foe, or potentially ally in doubles),

Flame Orb-Burn
Light Ball-Paralysis
Berries-The berrie's inherent effect activities on your target, regardless of it's HP. That can mean a Salac boost in doubles, amongst any number of creative options.
White Herb-Removes all negative stat levels from target.
King's Rock/Razor Fang-Flinches target.

If the use of Fling is worth your item slot and one of your moveslots is up to you, but a surprise burn from an Azumarill can have legitimate repurcussions. I have yet to try Fling out myself.

Another accuracy booster build,

Ampharos@Zoom Lens
Quiet (0 IV in speed) 252 sp.atk/252 HP/6 sp.def
Thunder
Focus Blast
Filler (Either Screen/Heal Bell/Toxic/etc)
Filler

I built this in-game last week and haven't tried him out yet. Again, Focus Blast is the purpose of the set, Thunder is a significantly larger gamble than Fire Blast as well.
 
Sheshi said:
The metronome was mentioned in Togekiss. However, metronome just isn't worth the item slot really. As shown, it does less extra damage than Iron Plate (for Jirachi)

Quickclaw would be useful on even slow sweepers like PZ. However, it does have a 10% chance of activating and is negated by priority. So I question the use of Quickclaw in such a case.
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actually quick claw has an 18.75% chance of activatiing
 
cantab said:
There's opportunity cost to using these items, but there's no ACTUAL cost. Whereas LO gives the recoil, and choice items lock you into a move.

Besides,
LO Flamethrower, Surf, Fire Blast, Thunderbolt: 95 x 1.3 = 123.5 EBP (Effective Base Power), 100% acc
Wide Lens Fire Blast: 120 EBP, 93.5% acc
Wide Lens Hydro Pump: 120 EBP, 88% acc
Wide Lens Blizzard, Thunder: 120 EBP, 77% acc

The power difference is insignificant. Wide Lensed moves still suffer from inaccuracy though. If you're using fire and water, Wide Lens is viable, but if you're using thunder or ice (more common), LO is probably the best.
Of course, you give up the most powerful option but least accurate option, LOed versions of the more powerful attacks, which hit for 156 EBP.
If it's on a slow tank, you can use Zoom Lens, which brings the accuracies much higher, and means it really should be the choice over LOed lower power moves. Even then, you have to consider alternatives like Leftovers, Expert Belt, whatever.
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Opportunity cost is an actual cost. If you spend your $5 on a hamburger, you're losing out on the Ramen you could have bought instead.

To illustrate, in pokemon (assuming GF didn't totally screw you with retarded move pool/typing), a poke has 3 main attributes from which it can get power: Base Stats, Ability and Item.

The most powerful pokes are examples where all 3 opportunities are used to great effect. While there are some pokemon who can still succeed while having "meh" options in some of these (Flygon's "meh" base stats or Infernape's "meh" ability), in general you want all of these aspects to be used to full potential.

Huge Power makes Azum's Aquajet impressive despite crappy base ATK, but it's no where near impressive as having a natural 130 base ATK and Technician on top of it (Scizor).

To be an excellent pokemon, you have to take full advantage of your opportunities. Fortunately, most pokes can make really good use of the items that already exist, meaning that at least the item opportunity is rarely put to waste.

What this means though, is that if you are going to diverge from the typical leftovers / life orb / choice items (which are all extremely good), you have to be getting something pretty damn good in exchange.
 
GREEN00 said:
I can see rarely utilized power in Fling. Some of Fling's effects when your flung item hits your target (foe, or potentially ally in doubles),

Flame Orb-Burn
Light Ball-Paralysis
Berries-The berrie's inherent effect activities on your target, regardless of it's HP. That can mean a Salac boost in doubles, amongst any number of creative options.
White Herb-Removes all negative stat levels from target.
King's Rock/Razor Fang-Flinches target.

If the use of Fling is worth your item slot and one of your moveslots is up to you, but a surprise burn from an Azumarill can have legitimate repurcussions. I have yet to try Fling out myself.
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You forgot the item Iron Ball. It does mean you go last and lose Flying/Levitating advantages, but does a lot when flung.
 
To be honest I think Fling is generally going to be a waste of time. Would you use any other move with only 1 PP? That's what Fling effectively is.

Flinging a Razor Fang or King's Rock is generally outclassed by Fake Out. Flinging a Flame Orb or Toxic Orb is generally outclassed by Tricking it - the 30 base power is of little consequence.

The Pokemon I reckon would be the best user of Fling doesn't learn it. Arceus. If Arceus could Fling his plate, and thus change type during the battle, that might actually be useful.

On most other Pokemon, a plate is probably still the best thing to Fling. The item's useful anyway, and Fling gets 90 base power, which is decent. Even so, it's a one-shot deal. Is there really anything you'll be desperate for Physical Dark on that doesn't learn Crunch, Night Slash, Sucker Punch, Payback, Bite, or Faint Attack?

Related mechanics question: If you Fling a Dread Plate, do you get the 20% boost?

Natural Gift's possibly better than Fling. On Pokemon that struggle for movepool, Natural Gift could be like a second Hidden Power for them. Of course the constraint that the berry ought to also be useful if consumed limits it a lot.
 
Most of these items aren't going to be practical in use, and the surprise factor won't be enough to win you a match.

My favorite one is the micle berry used with Zap Cannon, though once they see the berry activate, they'll probably be expecting it. If you can use recycle, too, it can provide some more fun. (But once again impractical and predictable)

Shell bell could be useful if you are baton passing speed and attack (with Gliscor or Ninjask or the likes) to a Lucario, because he hits quite hard, and it could potentially outheal leftovers.

I've toyed with using a grip claw on a Heatran with Magma Storm, but since trapping your counter (who inevitably switches in) won't do you much good, it's probably not the best idea.

Most of the berries are just gimmicks because you can only use them once without recycle, and for the most part, recycle is a waste of a move. The one exception is the custap berry, which can work fantastically with destiny bond if your opponenet doesn't see it coming. The only reliable user of it would be Wobuffet, unfortunately.

Lastly, I don't know if Quick Claw is banned or something, but you can't select it in the team building window.
 
Thinking of Wide Lens, and Starmie, because Wide Lens + Starmie might be viable.

Starmie can usually run a set of:

Starmie @ Life Orb
Recover
Surf
Ice Beam
ThunderBolt

However, there is no real reason why Starmie can't consider:

Starmie @ Wide Lens
Recover
Hydro Pump
Blizzard (More Power + larger Freeze chance)
Thunder/Thunderbolt (Latter because of Sandstorms)

More longevity, more chance at causing status, and hits more or less as hard as LO Starmie.

In addittion, Shell Bell > Leftovers for Sweepers, IMO. Bulky Sweepers who tend to deal large sums of damage. Emploeon is an example, but Starmie is another possible case, as is any sweeper who can carry Lefties, such as Salamance.
 
I'm not so sure about Shell Bell. I thought that how much Shell Bell heals depended on how much damage the pokemon did, whereas Leftovers heals a constant percentage of the pokemon's HP. On pokemon with high base HP or pokemon whose targets have low base HP, Shell Bell probably isn't all that great.

Still, could be good against Blissey.
 
Leftovers: 1/16's of holder's HP per turn

Shell Bell: 1/8th of the damage delt

That would mean, on an offensive pokemon, if you are dishing out more than 1/2 of your max HP per turn, which is possible with a Sweeper, Shell Bell is better than Leftovers. The only downside is if someone switches in an immunity, or resist, but that's why set-up sweepers are best for this, like Nasty Plot Infernape.

Imagine something like Infernape. Leftovers heals 21 (20.25) HP per turn, on a standard set (Ignore the fact they don't USE leftovers more often than not, it's just an example).

20.25 * 8 = 162

Infernape can easily manage that per turn, more often than not, more.

Another example, Starmie, takeing a 4 HP one into consideration (Offensive)
Leftovers: 293 / 16 = 18.3125 -> 19
For Shell Bell to do better/as well: 18.125 * 8 = 146.5 -> 147 damage per turn

Very easy on something with Starmie's coverage.

Rotom-A could also manage it, being a high defence, somewhat hard hitting, but low HP pokemon.

That's the sort of build that would benifit the most, something with a high attacking stat, and low HP, but enough defence to take a hit, like Starmie, Rotom, and Infernape (Sorta). Lucario could benifit too, as could Scizor.

I'm not saying Shell Bell > Leftovers all the time, just on some things. Blissey will never get more from Shell Bell than Leftovers, nor will Skarm, or any wall, but sweepers, it could be invaluable.

Also, in, say, the Uber Metagame, where everything hits horrendously hard, this could be massivly benifical as well. Kyogre restoreing more HP than usual to boost up the power of Water Spout more is... frightening.
 
Heracross could benefit from wide lens since half his main moves, mega horn (85 acc) and stone edge (80 acc) benefit from it. If you are planning on passing agility to him for example it is viable.
 
Grip Claw would be useful if you use Lapras's Perish Song+Whirlpool,Quick Claw is useful for a Machamp without a Choice Band/Scarf
 
I don't know if this was mentioned already, but spamming your one attack with Metronome would be a good way (imo) to bluff a choice item.
 
Frank Ripley said:
I don't know if this was mentioned already, but spamming your one attack with Metronome would be a good way (imo) to bluff a choice item.
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It's been mentioned. Several times. People have come to the conclusion that using a plate/specific type-boosting item is generally better because you have to spam the attack for five whole turns before you begin to get the boost.
 
Scope Lens Super Luck Night Slash Psycho Cut Absol sounds appealing but...in reality it has never really worked for me it doesn't get as much critcs as I expected :S
 
Darth Kaiser said:
Scope Lens Super Luck Night Slash Psycho Cut Absol sounds appealing but...in reality it has never really worked for me it doesn't get as much critcs as I expected :S
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Well, that's because with 3 crit level boosters, you still are 33.3 percent chance of a critical, if I understand the system correctly. As you can see, there's not really much use in relying on the criticals as your main source of damage. Were they legal, you'd almost be better off spamming OHKO moves.
 
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