The Taunt "Dilemma"

RaikouLover

is a Contributor Alumnus
I'm going to try to keep this as educated as possible and actually give a positive discussion about a matter that seems so... trivial.

Anyway, suicide leads are all the rage now. Taunt first to prevent your opponent from setting up Stealth Rock, set it up yourself, then get on with your life. Sounds all fine and dandy!

HOWEVER, the three most common culprits of this are Azelf, Aerodactyl, and Deoxys. All of them fast as hell, all of them have a quick strategy behind them. What do you do in a mirror match? Do you taunt first to prevent them from setting up, or do you execute your own strategy and lay your rocks first.

I'll give an example:

I send out my max speed Jolly Aerodactyl and to no surprise am facing another Aerodactyl and I am sure it is max speed. I take a stab at diplomacy and type through the battle chat, "hey, I'll make a deal with you... I'll set up Stealth Rock if you do, that way none of us get fucked over by the speed tie." He agrees, and we both do that... all fine and dandy. A few battles later, I face another Aerodactyl on a different team and do the same diplomacy. He agrees, yet wins the speed tie and taunts me. I immediately think... you asshole! But I really can't get to mad because it is a game and not the end of the world, especially because Aerodactyl isn't the most frightening pokemon in OU.

Now, I recently upgraded to Deoxys when using this strategy of getting the residual damage up early for his superior speed. So I'm content with a max speed Deoxys... yup 500+ speed at my disposal, I am GUARENTEED stealth rock... or am I?

Yesterday, I spent a good amount of time battling and came accross the recently popularized Taunt, Stealth Rock, Dual Screen Deoxys. Hell, I've used one myself. I take my usual stab at diplomacy and my opponent agrees (I expect him to taunt anyway) and he does in fact, win the speed tie and Taunt me. Then he proceeds to set up Stealth Rock, and a few screens while I'm forced out, and he brings in a baton passer and ends up sweeping my hopeless team... all because he taunted me on turn 1. Had I have taunted, it still wouldn't have mattered because I lost the speed tie. I ran into about 6 more Deoxys yesterday, all the same kind and completely abandoned my diplomacy and used taunt, yet I lossed the speed tie in 5 out of 6 battles... resulting in the same 5 out of 6 defeats. In fact, 3 of those times... I switched my Deoxys out and back in to taunt him before he could get another screen up... and was Taunted AGAIN....

Now, you could make a case that I should stop bitching and find a way to counter this strategy... but many of you on the losing end know that it is pretty difficult to stop a Baton Pass team, or any pokemon with a set up... that has residual damage behind them and is protected by both screens... and it all could have been prevented by you winning the speed tie (in my case at least). So I ask you Smogon, is this problem Deoxys? Is this a problem? Or am I just an unlucky bastard that needs to be a better sport? I found that its not nearly as big a deal against Azelf or Aerodactyl, but at the same time I still think losing a speed tie and being taunted puts you at a remarkable disadvantage that is amplified when the user is a pokemon as gamebreaking as Deoxys.

I would like to think that some sort of etiquette like a "rules of war" would be at least not to taunt on turn one... but that would NEVER happen. Anyway... discuss...
 
on your aerodactyl example, I just always rock slide opposing aerodactyl first anyway :/ I don't leave it up to chance and figure i might as well take them out early.

I also started using shadow ball on lead deoxys to take out other deoxys :/
 
First off, this is why I don't like leading with something that has zero attacking moves. <_<

Anyway, I'd have to honestly say that you were just unlucky losing those 5/6 speed ties. In situations like this, it's your responsibility to weigh the risk/reward of you winning the tie and pulling off your Taunt/Stealth Rock successfully (imo). If 50/50 isn't your cup of tea, then switch or attack. (EDIT: "Attack" meaning "Use something not stopped by Taunt.")

(Personally, I switch to ScarfGar immediately when I see a lead Deoxys.)
 
personally, I attack on turn 1, simply because, I don't remember ever winning a speed tie for as long as I've battled, at least not a significant one (i.e. I may have won a speed tie sring while the other guy used sr as well). against azelf/deoxys, I usually just u-turn out to something else while they taunt or sr. if I'm up against aero, I either u-turn or thunderbolt, depending on the moves that I'm running.

as far as people ignoring your diplomacy, they should at least refuse if they're gonna taunt, or be like, I may or may not sr on turn one, you have to predict me. or some crap like that. agreeing and then taunting is pretty gay.
 
I swear, I don't remember ever losing a speed tie on Shoddy. Every single time, I seem to win them. Anyway.

Short of leading with something like a gimmicky Taunt/SR/Brick Break/filler Deoxys-S lead, I'm not really sure what you can do against dual screen Deoxys; from my experience it makes the likes of SDLuke, Salamence and Gyarados ridiculously hard to stop as it's so easy for them to set up :s
 
I don't like speed ties, and I tend to avoid maxing out the speed on many of my Pokemon. In my opinion, maxing out your speed is like the trade off of using "hax items". You are losing the 40 HP EVs for a chance to outspeed your enemy 50% of the time. This is much like losing the extra power of a Life Orb, and using Scope Lens for a chance to do double the damage.

Of course, I realize my examples are flawed. I am assuming that your enemy will always run 252 Speed. Scope Lens Vs. Life Orb is also flawed because a 10% chance to do 2X damage is not equal to a 100% chance of doing 1.3X damage and taking 10% recoil each turn.

My point is that your "rules of war" example could make Pokemon rely less on prediction. Of course, trying to predict at turn 1 is nothing more than blind luck unless you already know your opponents habits. I advise you to consider that you have made the exchange between maxing Speed against 40 HP EVs, and the investment didn't pay off. There is nothing more you can do besides rely on your skill and luck. It makes the game more fun in my opinion.
 
I would suggest thinking outside the box and using new leads that counter suicide leads. Like Mamoswine or a fast scarfer. If enough people start doing that hopefully the trend of stupid suicide leads will fade
 
The verdict is that you can't rely on stopping steath rock on D-E leads. Might as well just use a U-turn lead and switch to a pokemon that hits hard with a priority move, like Metagross' Bullet Punch.
 
No..

First of all, even if he used Reflect and you predict him switch, you could Pursuit.
Now, you were talking about Taunt leads. If you lead with Azelf, he will most likely be taunting to stop you from setting up SR, but you'll be using U-turn anyway and switch to a good priority user to seal the deal. You actually have an adventage here because you know what your opponent is thinking, when using the same kind of leads.
 
mhmmmm. or you could go with that nifty fake out ape that you yourself started using to break his sash and then hit him hard with fire blast.
 
Losing to speed ties is really pissing me off lately. Seriously the only way to counter Azelf and Deoxys is like a Tyranitar or Metagross, I dont know of another way (or like fakeout weavile or something... but that doesn't stop SR or kill the pokemon). Hopefully this fad will end soon, but then again I sort of like using these sorts of leads for a fast quick win lol
 
Agreeing with Mystica, anyways this doesnt really bother my current teams as I almost never switch letting them not set up. ;)
 
I use a Heatran as a lead. I have never been taunted once, and I get up SR almost every time, unless they led with Gyarados or Tyranitar.

Usually, both me and the Azelf set up SR first turn, then I Fire Blast as they Psychic. I send in Gengar on the explosion
My losses: 20% on Heatran, 12% on Gengar.
His losses: An Azelf.

However, those cocky dual screen deoxys are a different story, sometimes they do taunt Heatran for some reason.
 
I have been seeing a lot more Ttar, Weavile and Metagross leads recently and I think its in response to this exact problem. Trends come and go, and when people start getting destroyed trying to set up, this trend will fade too. If you don't like speed-ties deciding the flow of the match, then don't play a suicide lead. It's really that simple.
 
I never understood why suicide leads are all the rage now, Bronzong (most used lead) won't really give a damn against either of those 3 Pokemon, because it can KO them with a bit of EVs investment in attack. If they go with Taunt (which most did when I play Shoddy), they just lost one Pokemon who did absolutely nothing. Besides, most team nowadays either has a rapid spinner or has a team that really won't mind Stealth Rock.
 
Mystica said:
Losing to speed ties is really pissing me off lately. Seriously the only way to counter Azelf and Deoxys is like a Tyranitar or Metagross, I dont know of another way (or like fakeout weavile or something... but that doesn't stop SR or kill the pokemon). Hopefully this fad will end soon, but then again I sort of like using these sorts of leads for a fast quick win lol
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ScarfWeavile. OHKOs both Azelf and Deoxys-S, along with Aerodactyl (who also uses Taunt). ScarfWeavile might "seem" unnecessary, but the fact is that while Deoxys-S runs 504 Speed and has access to Taunt + Double Screen, if you want to explicitly counter it you have to do something potentially unnecessary.

Or you could just have your lead guy be a surprise Taunt yourself (Tyranitar?), or an Exploder :D
 
Aldaron said:
ScarfWeavile. OHKOs both Azelf and Deoxys-S, along with Aerodactyl (who also uses Taunt). ScarfWeavile might "seem" unnecessary, but the fact is that while Deoxys-S runs 504 Speed and has access to Taunt + Double Screen, if you want to explicitly counter it you have to do something potentially unnecessary.

Or you could just have your lead guy be a surprise Taunt yourself (Tyranitar?), or an Exploder :D
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My sentinments are that Choice Scarf perpetuates its use. In December, nobody had even heard of ScarfGar, and rarely ScarfTran. Now there's Scarfed Weavile? 0.o

A pokemon in the second-highest speed tier in OU needs a Choice Scarf. Just think about that.

Sorry for going off topic.
 
Whoa whoa, in December no one even heard of ScarfGar?

Do me a favor. Go to the RMT forum, click on Most Viewed.

Go to the first team there, and look at that Gengar ;D

Not only was it Scarfed...but it was Timid as well.

Not to mention really early Shoddy (circa August) had plenty of Scarf Alakazam and Weavile running around.

But on topic, you do what you have to adapt to changes in the metagame. Something was introduced, so obviously changes have to be made.

The Taunting leads are annoying, yea, I've compensated by running a Taunt Mixtar. I Crunch Azelf, Stone Edge Aerodactyl, Taunt Deoxys. Just because something is currently an issue does not mean it cannot be dealt with.

I will admit however that the DS Deoxys-S team has owned me more often than not :P
 
I run a Dusknoir lead that can't stop SR (the only way you can is by a faster taunter anyway) but can handle them before they can do anything else, and makes the Dual screen DS obsolete.

Dusknoir(M)@Leftovers/Lum Berry
Ev's:252HP/232Atk/24Sp.Def
Trait:Pressure
-Shadow Sneak
-Brick Break
-Ice Punch/Thunder Punch
-Taunt/Focus Punch/Pain Split

Ok, Shadow Sneak is obvious as it 2HKO's Azelf and finishes off Aerodactyl after it's focus sash activation. It also 2HKOs Dexoys-e if he doesn't get reflect on turn 2. (Although he might anyway im not sure)

Brick Break is the best counter to DS Deoxys-e. Its a no brainer, it breaks the barriers and he can then hit him with Shadow Sneak. Ice Punch/Thunder Punch both hit Aero for SE and bring him down to Shadow Sneak range, and you can choose which one you need more. (Gyara vs Dragons)

Taunt is useful for Bronzong leads because it makes them worthess as they can barely touch Dusknoir. Focus Punch can catch a poke on the switch and hit Cocky Tyranitars or Lucario's who know you don't carry WoW and try to set up, and also nails the Pink puffball. Pain Split is useful for recovery, especially if you opt for Lum Berry.

Lum berry is there so you can kill off any Gengar lead. It can also help to rid of any status.

This Dusknoir can do more then that outside the first few turns as well.
Brick Break/Shadow Sneak hits neautral on everything, and he can be a useful switch in to normal and fighting attacks if you need it, just dont be too overconfident because his lack of defensive ev's hurt really bad.
 
One thing that seems to have been largely overlooked, is if your opponent sacrifices their stealth rock user, rapid spin is going to make them look quite silly.

You could even lead with Starmie, RS turn 1 to break the sash, then surf.

I dont think I would bother leading with it though..

Have a nice day.
 
I use a Lum Berry Bronzong with SR, Light Screen, Gyro Ball, and Explosion. I like this set because it achieves a balance between supporting and attacking moves. It can support the team by setting up rocks and a screen(or sleep w/ hypnosis if you prefer) like Deoxys-s, but, when taunted, avoids becoming setup fodder with Explosion.
 
CB Metagross seems like a great way to beat these leads because CB Bullet Punch OHKOs(I think) Azelf, Aerodactyl and Deoxys-S, preventing set up in the first place.
 
lol I just started to lead with a standard mixed Deoxys-S with Shadow Ball and enough speed ev's to outrun modest scarfgar I think. Does so well against so many leads like Tyranitar and other suicide leads. I put Taunt over thunderbolt for Bronzong.
 
blasphemy1 said:
CB Metagross seems like a great way to beat these leads because CB Bullet Punch OHKOs(I think) Azelf, Aerodactyl and Deoxys-S, preventing set up in the first place.
Click to expand...

Except they run Focus Sash, so they're gonna set SR anyway, and i dont think even CB bullet punch OHKO's Dexoys-e.
 
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