Gen 5 The OU Viability Ranking thread

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Nominating Sawsbuck for B+ rank

Sawsbuck is definitely deserving of B rank. No, not just because Sawsbuck-Winter is the most majestic Pokémon to ever grace the game, it also happens to be one of the best Chlorophyll sweepers available to sun teams. Sun teams have many common weaknesses that can be difficult for them to bypass. Things like Heatran, Volcarona, and Calm Mind Latias can be a huge problem for most sun teams, and many of them are forced to run Pokémon like Dugtrio or Scarf Garchomp just to get through them. But that's what makes Sawsbuck such a great choice for sun teams. It can take down all of those Pokémon with the right move. A +2 Jump Kick can take out Air Balloon Heatran, while a Nature Power can OHKO ones without it. Double Edge (even when unboosted) can OHKO offensive Latias after Stealth Rock, whereas a Megahorn can OHKO the Calm Mind set. Offensive Volcarona is easily OHKO'd by an unboosted Double Edge, or Nature Power after Stealth Rock. In fact, Sawsbuck's ability to take out Heatran makes it a great partner for other Chlorphyll sweepers and Volcarona, since they can't normally do that themselves.

I would compare Sawsbuck to Stoutland in sand, which is currently B+. Actually, Sawsbuck has quite a few advantages over Stoutland. It's notably faster, which means that running an Adamant nature isn't detrimental, and isn't outsped by Scarf Keldeo and Terrakion (or Latios, OR Venusaur). It also gets a beautiful secondary STAB that lets it run Life Orb effectively, since Horn Leech can recover off damage taken by it and Double Edge recoil. Finally, it has Swords Dance to boost its already great Attack to insane levels, letting it OHKO Landorus-T with Double Edge after a SD boost and Stealth Rock. So if Stoutland is B+, then I definitely think Sawsbuck deserves to join him.
 
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DoABarrelRoll said:
Haban Chomp is not a gimmick. What if I have enough Ice resists and Chomp doesn't need a Yache Berry? With that item Chomp can take a weaker dragon-type attack and OHKO that pesky Salamence, Dragonite, Latias etc.

That calc with Ferro and HP Fire was factoring in leftovers.

Yes, I forgot to include the sandstorm vs ttar, but now I found that LO Surf from Latias doesn't 2HKO BandTar, where as Specs Surf from Latios does 2HKO it 100% without Stealth Rock (no, please don't bring in Specs Latias, there's a reason it's not being used: it's totally outclassed by her brother) and who the fuck runs HP Fighting on Lati@s anyway?

How is Scizor not switching in on rain? It'll predict the Specs / LO Draco and take out your Latias with band bullet punch, which is a 2hko. At -2, Hidden Power Fire does ~30% to scizor in rain, which means that Draco Meteor + HP Fire is not a 2hko on it even after stealth rock damage.

And how are most Latias sets better than Latios sets? No one uses Scarf Latias, no one uses Specs Latias, and no one uses physical Latias. Hell, I'd say offensive CM Latios > offensive CM Latias.
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I never said Haban chomp was a gimmick, I just was making a remark that how it's barely used ever since that sudden rise pre-BW1 ban. Also, imo physical DD latios is bad, it's a lure set, once a person sees DD, they can likely just realize to switch out from rachi and into skarm. Also considering the speed tier and the surprise factor is the only reason to use it over any other DDer, Mence is breaking through pretty much everything's defenses after a DD and either fire blast or the infamous fire fang, Dragonite has the amazing multiscale, Espeed and crazy amounts of attack, oh that and multiscale. It should only be used with an amount of support to the point where your team would rather enjoy the lack of pressure and have a Fire Blast DD Mence over it so you can have more slots left for other things not purely for supporting your DDer.

ALso LOL TRYING TO THINK SURF 2HKOS ARE LEGITIMATE IN THIS METAGAME. Latios may 2HKO but surf, but this is a water type infested metagame, trying to use surf to 2HKO something that is going to switch in on anything but surf later on only ends you up with : a) a jellicent in your face laughing at anything you can do to it, b) a LO starmie ready to spin away your hazards oor hit anything you dare switch in for a LO analytic STAB hydro pump, or , probably one of the most threatening c)A Specs Keldeo ready to 2HKO your entire team

Now what LO latias can do in this situation (since your obviously to ignorant to consider the existence of such a set as scarf and specs latias) is : a) switch up moves and 2HKO jellicent with psyshock as opposed to specs latios who just sits there and gets 2HKOd with shadow ball while healing jellicent off with water absorbed surfs (0 SpA Jellicent Shadow Ball vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Latias: 120-144 (39.73 - 47.68%) -- 1.95% chance to 2HKO after weather VS 0 SpA Jellicent Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Latios: 138-164 (45.84 - 54.48%) -- 94.92% chance to 2HKO after weather) and b) switch up moves and OHKO starmie with draco as starmie would overpredict in both scene's to 2HKO a switch in while latias kills it instead of specstios sitting there just trying to get chip damage through surf or switching out only to get a switch in heavily damage by LO Hydro, and C) do what you would do in B except replace LO Hydro Pump being a hard hit for your team with Ebelt or Specs Hydro (since scarf keldeo hasn't been famed as much, even though I personally love how scarf keldeo works and the amount of things it can check) anyway

A switch in means it can switch in to all of the pokemon's move USUALLY unless specified for one move in something like a smogon analysis. Also, Latios does worse because all it can do is fire off weak -2 draco meteors if it gets choice locked into such a move now enough said, if you really want to argue scizor is a good switch in to something with 110 SpA, Life orb and HP Fire, move this to VM as at this point it's pointless arguing for the sake of winning an argument that at the end of the day is based off your playstyle, anyway Expect this post to be edited with sawsbuck B+ seconding and thoughts on exceggutor and it's potential ranking

I really feel like this argument for Latios for/NOT for S is going nowhere until PK gaming says "enough" or his thoughts
 
I'm going to agree with Halcyon and but say Sawsbuck for B rank instead. While Sawsbuck can hit as hard as a truck in sun after a swords dance almost everything that he cannot OHKO will KO him back. I do also found it troublesome to switch in with Sawsbuck as he will most likely die to life orb recoil if he switches in to an attack. Scizor also happens beats the heck out of him but your team should be able to handle a Scizor. But as a lategame sweeper or just to soften up teams and prepare for something else to sweep he's really good at doing his job.
 
IMO, Lilligant should be B tier. Not for its QD sweeper set but for its sun support set. Its access to Healing Wish, strongth stab move, Sleep Powder, and incredible speed is simply amazing. Here is the set:

Lilligant@Life Orb
252 spattck/196 speed/60 defense
Modest
Chlorophyll

Leaf Storm
HP Ice
Healing Wish
Sleep Powder

Boasting the fastest sleep in the OU metagame, Lilligant can reliably cripple one pokemon 75% of the time. Why u no spore Lily? Anyway, midgame, it functions as a wallbreaker of sorts, annihilating pokes with lo leaf storm and sometimes hp ice. Late game, however, is where Lilligant really shines. Lilligant is down to one percent. All you have is a half dead Ninetales left. Your opponent laughs as he clicks outage on his Kyurem Black. Sleep Powder is futile, you would be breaking sleep clause. Your only check to Cube has been eliminated by Wobbufet. You click healing wish, tank the Outrage with Scizor, and proceed to rape his last two pokes with Bullet Punch. What is mean is, Lilligant is so fucking clutch. It has essentially three roles- emergency check all mon, wallbreaker, and suicide mon.
 
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Yeah Saws' longevity isn't as nice as Stoutland's (and Stoutland HAS no way of healing, which implies Saws gets worn down a lot). Horn Leach (or w/e) is hard to spam or use reliably while hazards and LO really take its toll.

However, Halcon is right: Saws deserves better.

B Rank imo!
 
Seconding the call to bump Lilli up. She's got the fastest Sleep Powder outside of sun-boosted Jumpluff (if only it actually hit when it counted...), Healing Wish is probably the funniest thing in OU play, and her Leaf Storm is going to do serious damage to anything that doesn't resist it and isn't a pink blob. It gives her team a great chance to win the weather war in a single move - for reference, a Life Orb-boosted Leaf Storm from 252+ Lilligant OHKOs Choice Band Tyranitar in a sandstorm. (That 90% accuracy will screw you over at the worst times, though - I speak from experience here.) A correction on that utility set, though - it's best to run a spread of 60 Def / 252 SpA / 196 Spe. That's still going to outrun all the relevant threats, and the Defense investment allows a healthy Lilligant to take an Ice Shard from Life Orb Adamant Mamoswine and either shred it with Leaf Storm or use Healing Wish.
 
Jukain said:
Jirachi also gets Healing Wish...

Just saying.
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Yup. And Scarf Jirachi is awesome with it as well. As mentioned by others, Jirachi's Speed + Durability, alongside its excellent revenge killing, quirky coverage options, and Heal Wish make it a great scarf user (better than Latias overall imo). Sure, it lacks a way to do any sort of wall breaking (only really being able to break through threats with Flinch hax or 4x SE hits), but then Latias doesn't have that either (Latias' D Meteor with no item boost or CM is pretty weak overall in the meta).
 
I've actually been using Adamant Banded Garchomp lately, and it's a really cool attacking lead. Getting the OHKO on Sash Breloom isn't the only thing it does, it also OHKOs Rotom-W with Outrage, which is another common lead. It even has a 94.14 chance to 2HKO 248 HP/172 Def Landorus-T after Intimidate, and that's without Stealth Rock! It's also good for the surprise value, because people generally expect lead Garchomp to be the Stealth Rock set.

I used Jolly for a while, but when I switched to Adamant, I never went back. If I can get Garchomp in on something slower, something is going to die unless they're using Skarmory. It definitely depends what Garchomp is supposed to do for the team though, and whether its partners can revenge the things that will revenge it. The team I use it on really appreciates Breloom and Rotom-W being gone, Steel Types weakened.
 
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Hydro Pimp said:
I've actually been using Adamant Banded Garchomp lately, and it's a really cool attacking lead. Getting the OHKO on Sash Breloom isn't the only thing it does, it also OHKOs Rotom-W with Outrage, which is another common lead. It even has a 94.14 chance to OHKO 248 HP/172 Def Landorus-T after Intimidate, and that's without Stealth Rock! It's also good for the surprise value, because people generally expect lead Garchomp to be the Stealth Rock set.

I used Jolly for a while, but when I switched to Adamant, I never went back. If I can get Garchomp in on something slower, something is going to die unless they're using Skarmory. It definitely depends what Garchomp is supposed to do for the team though, and whether its partners can revenge the things that will revenge it. The team I use it on really appreciates Breloom and Rotom-W being gone, Steel Types weakened.
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-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Garchomp Outrage vs. 248 HP / 172 Def Landorus-T: 196-232 (51.44 - 60.89%) -- 94.14% chance to 2HKO
lol js
Also, why isn't Kyurem-Black S ranked?
It's the only suspectable ou poke aside from keldeo.
It can run a bunch of viable sets, and has good bulk.
SR weakness sucks but still.
 
Kingler12345 said:
lol k
Also, S rank cube pls
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Cube seems like an S-rank Pokemon on paper, but in actuality, he's just a really good A+ Rank Pokemon. For one, I don't like it when people automatically assume a Pokemon should be S-rank because it got a suspect. Although S-rank usually means it's a pretty damn good Pokemon, that doesn't necessarily make it one of the best Pokemon in the metagame. Speaking of which, what do you mean "susceptible Pokemon"? If I recall correctly, the OU council hasn't said anything about suspecting Kyurem-B before X and Y, nor even hinted at it, so that argument isn't even valid. Now I do agree with you that it has some really impressive bulk that a lot of people seem to overlook (his Sub Hone Claws set is a bitch to stall), but the biggest problem with that is it's weak to a lot of common typing, like Fighting, Rock, Steel, and Dragon. Scizor and Breloom are everywhere too with priority. This makes it hard for Kyurem-B to take full advantage of his massive bulk because so many Pokemon can hit it for super effective damage. Being weak to Stealth Rock doesn't help matters, and it forces all Sub variants to either be paired with a spinner or run Roost over a coverage move, which sucks. Last but not least, it's pretty damn slow for an offensive Pokemon, being one of the slowest Dragon-types in the tier. This makes his non Sub sets prone to being revenge killed quite easily, which is a real shame. This is one of the biggest reasons its incredibly powerful Choice Banded set isn't nearly as effective as you'd think, because its speed keeps it from being able to sweep most of the time.

So yeah, Kyurem-B is a really good Pokemon, but it's not one of the more influential Pokemon in the metagame like T-Tar, Keldeo, or Politoed that would warrant it a spot in S-rank. The S-rank is for Pokemon that have such a large impact on the metagame that it actually forced the whole tier to adapt to it in order to work around it, while also being a very good Pokemon in general that can fit on a lot of teams. Kyurem-B really hasn't done that, nor is it easy to fit on teams. Steel-types were already on almost every team anyway, and Scizor and Breloom were always used a ton anyway. I think KyuB is fine where it's at.
 
I can try to type up some things later for them, but I noticed Tangrowth, Meloetta, and Gorebyss aren't on the list, despite all of them showing results in OU. The last of the three is a little gimmicky, but does as well on the ladder as most of the pokemon in B / B- The other two could probably squeeze their way in to B or B+ depending on how convincing the argument is for them, but I believe all 3 should be evaluated for the list. So if no one else has an affinity for any of these Pokemon and wants to do write up some points, I'll take a stab at it later.

EDIT: Past talk in the thread implied Tangrowth was C but there were points to bump it up to B-. Did it accidently get removed? Gorebyss was barely mentioned but there was talk of putting it in D, and Meloetta had no discussion.
 
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Kyurem black should definitely be S-Rank. Everytime it gets a sub up you have to either sack or cripple something on your team and kyurem can simply switch out. As long as the kyurem b user can keep hazards off their field, killing that thing is going to be a nightmare. Choice band and scarf are great cleaners and a huge ass surprise for anyone expecting a mixed set. Kyurem can easily pick teams apart with its ridiculous high offensive stats and perfect coverage. Its too dangerous of a threat to not be S-Rank.
S Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who can sweep or wall significant portions of the metagame with little support, and Pokemon who can support other Pokemon with very little opportunity cost ("free turns"). Also the home of Pokemon who can easily perform multiple roles effectively, increasing their versatility and unpredictability. If the Pokemon in this rank have any flaws, those flaws are thoroughly mitigated by their substantial strengths. If there are suspects, they will come from this rank.

Also can we please move thundurus-t to A+ again? Agility or double booster thundurus is one of the best setup sweepers in the tier if not the best, it hits nearly everything for super effective damage and stab thunders are nothing to scoff at. Its typing can be put to great use with a bulkier spread that makes setup a breeze. You dont even need rapid spin support or barely any support at all. Just get rid of the pink blobs and youre golden.

 
OiaweBlindLatiasFollower said:
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Latias for S rank
Now before you ask why, let me explain why so.
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I highly disagree with this post, and infact I don't believe such an outclassed pokemon should be OU in the first place (should be UU imo, or RU depending on how the UU community would handle the drop)

I personally think, Latias for C or even D rank.
And here's my explanation: Latias is heavily outclassed as a dragon and a psychic type, both offensively and defensively in OU.
LatiOS (which I recommend always using over latias, latias is terrible mostly) and Hydrei do offensive special dragon better, Defensive dragon can be done better by BulkyNite, also Some Variants of bulkynite can pull their own weight outside of walling and perform a DD/roost/dragon claw or outrage sweep.
Jirachi and others can do defensive psychic type better, LatOS(again) , Reuniclus and Alakazam do offensive psychic type better.
Overall in this metagame there is near NO reason to use the disappointment of a pokemon called latias, I'm still wondering how this thing even got banned in DPPt without soul dew, whatever. Regardless I want to hear your guyses thoughts, I personally think latias falls far under the strong mark for attackers, and far under the truly bulky mark for walls/bulky stuff. 80/90/130 is pretty bad bulk, seriously, just use the pink blobs, at least they have crazy large HP wishes, 317 will heal most pokes FULLY up, not just half. and 110 SpA is pathetic for BW2 standards, come on, can we wake up and see how bad this thing is already?
 
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Gary2346 said:
Cube seems like an S-rank Pokemon on paper, but in actuality, he's just a really good A+ Rank Pokemon. For one, I don't like it when people automatically assume a Pokemon should be S-rank because it got a suspect. Although S-rank usually means it's a pretty damn good Pokemon, that doesn't necessarily make it one of the best Pokemon in the metagame. Speaking of which, what do you mean "susceptible Pokemon"? If I recall correctly, the OU council hasn't said anything about suspecting Kyurem-B before X and Y, nor even hinted at it, so that argument isn't even valid. Now I do agree with you that it has some really impressive bulk that a lot of people seem to overlook (his Sub Hone Claws set is a bitch to stall), but the biggest problem with that is it's weak to a lot of common typing, like Fighting, Rock, Steel, and Dragon. Scizor and Breloom are everywhere too with priority. This makes it hard for Kyurem-B to take full advantage of his massive bulk because so many Pokemon can hit it for super effective damage. Being weak to Stealth Rock doesn't help matters, and it forces all Sub variants to either be paired with a spinner or run Roost over a coverage move, which sucks. Last but not least, it's pretty damn slow for an offensive Pokemon, being one of the slowest Dragon-types in the tier. This makes his non Sub sets prone to being revenge killed quite easily, which is a real shame. This is one of the biggest reasons its incredibly powerful Choice Banded set isn't nearly as effective as you'd think, because its speed keeps it from being able to sweep most of the time.

So yeah, Kyurem-B is a really good Pokemon, but it's not one of the more influential Pokemon in the metagame like T-Tar, Keldeo, or Politoed that would warrant it a spot in S-rank. The S-rank is for Pokemon that have such a large impact on the metagame that it actually forced the whole tier to adapt to it in order to work around it, while also being a very good Pokemon in general that can fit on a lot of teams. Kyurem-B really hasn't done that, nor is it easy to fit on teams. Steel-types were already on almost every team anyway, and Scizor and Breloom were always used a ton anyway. I think KyuB is fine where it's at.
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Regardless of whether kyu-b belongs in s on virtue of its abilities

I believe PK Gaming stated that an S Rank pokemon doesn't have to be a suspect, but all suspects must be S-rank Pokemon
 
Shayhok said:
I can try to type up some things later for them, but I noticed Tangrowth, Meloetta, and Gorebyss aren't on the list, despite all of them showing results in OU. The last of the three is a little gimmicky, but does as well on the ladder as most of the pokemon in B / B- The other two could probably squeeze their way in to B or B+ depending on how convincing the argument is for them, but I believe all 3 should be evaluated for the list. So if no one else has an affinity for any of these Pokemon and wants to do write up some points, I'll take a stab at it later.

EDIT: Past talk in the thread implied Tangrowth was C but there were points to bump it up to B-. Did it accidently get removed? Gorebyss was barely mentioned but there was talk of putting it in D, and Meloetta had no discussion.
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I personally disagree with tangrowth for anything more than C based on its standard set. Its typing is particullary bad for a physical wall since its neutral to dragon, fighting, rock and weak to bug. It also lacks anyway to support the team bar the unreliable sleep powder. I simply dont see any reason to use it over other physical walls with superior typings and movepool like skarmory or hippowdon. However the offensive clorophyl set is something i would personally like to be more looked at as it can use its combination of bulk and power to become a powerful mixed tank. Any thoughts?
 
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